The Untold (until now) Destiny of Raziel & Kane

[c4spinn]

Introduction: I came across a thread asking what should a new storyline be concerning Kain and Raziel...The time traveling was nice, seeing Raziel kill his human self, "classic" with LOK Defiance everything was brought to a close so I wanted to take the series in a new direction.
So for your reading enjoyment I present to you "The Untold Destiny of Raziel and Kain."
(My Vision of what the next game should be.)


Moments after Kain
slays The Elder God Kain is struck with a vision given to him by Ariel...
It tells of a coming storm. Wolves who have taken the form of man are
descending upon him and Nosgoth at that very moment. She inform him
their tooth and claw are infected and capable of turning humans into
one of them, also that Kain is powerless to stop them since one bite,
one scratch would corrupt his blood turning it black and thick as tar.
The future of Nosgoth lye in peril lest they can free Raziel from the
Soul Reaver. Kain asks how can they accomplish such a task? She tell
him that it requires a sacrifice, that she shall enter the blade and
push Raziel's sprit from the blade, thus becoming trapped in the
wraith blade. Kain insists that it can not be done. Ariel informs him
that when the blade was forged it held many secrets, true it was
intended for Raziel to dwell inside, but the blade is also a tool for
the Scion of Balance...You Kain. My balance would be forgiveness, and
imprisoning myself inside the blade of the very man who took my life
would be the ultimate act of forgiveness...Raziel's destiny was to dwell
inside the blade it did not say forever....He's dwelt inside of it,
he's fulfilled his destiny now it's time to write a new destiny......
because my destiny is to forever dwell inside of the Soul Reaver.
It's why I've never rested. Never crossed over. Wandered Nosgoth's pillars
endlessly with the Reaver ever present in the recesses of my mind...
Raziel was the tool needed to destroy The Elder God, for only his creation could cause his destruction. As the former Balance Guardian I complete you as the current Balance Guardian. My
soul inside of the Reaver shall form the Balance Reaver, and you shall
be complete...The Scion of Balance and his Balance Reaver. You nor I could not complete our destinies until Raziel completed his. Now that his task is done, it is time I fulfilled my duties as the former Balance Guardian.

"So what must I do?" Kain asks. Ariel replies"Stretch out your Reaver
before me, for I will need to enter it willingly in order that it may
not devour my soul like it has countless others."
Upon holding the Reaver high in the air, Ariel darts inside of the
wraith blade. The sword begins to tremble violently so much that it
falls from Kain's grasp. It falls to the ground followed by a blinding
light. As the light dims Raziel begins to emerge from the dirt directly
beneath the sword. "Impossible!" Raziel says giving himself the once over
"Raziel, there isn't much time. Ariel came to me in a vision warning me of
the danger descending upon Nosgoth and all of it's inhabitants." Kain says.
"How have I come to be freed from the Soul Reaver?" Raziel asks.
Kain repies,"Theres no time to explain. I must know, are you still able
to manifest the Sprit Reaver?" Raziel tries to summon the Reaver, and as
he does he feels a portion of himself leave him and form the blade.
"It feels different, something has changed." Raziel says. "Your Reaver
is your own now, for Ariel dwells inside of my blade. Fate has saw it fit
to cast a new stone into the ripples of time waters. We now exist in a new
thread of time. Outside of the loop we both formerly traveled once before.
The destruction of The Elder God has ushered in a new future, a new reality.
But not without it's own consequences it would appear. Creatures are headed
to Nosgoth, one's which I cannot stop, to destroy everything that was or ever
will be." Raziel replies,"So instead of a slow corrupting death, we've in
fact rushed Nosgoths destruction into a single day?!?" Kain smugly retorts,
"Ahh but there are unknown variables "X's" in the equation. You being free of
the Reaver is one of them, I being gifted with an Ariel Reaver is the other."

As soon as Kain finishes his sentence, almost as if on cue- a pack of creatures
consisting of twelve comes charging out of the surrounding bushes. Kain barely
has time to react spinning around to see this oncoming threat. His spin slices
one of the beasts in half whom managed to be upon him so quick, that had he turned a
second later he would've surely been done for. (Game commences) Raziel preforms the
perforated carcass on one of the other beasts knocking the now perforated carcass back
and into another launching a energy blast behind him destroying both on impact.
Kain grabs one in a T.K. grip strangling him, but the creatures neck is thick,
proving impossible to choke. Kain is stuck merely holding the creature in a T.K. grip
but dealing no real damage otherwise. Raziel charges up his gifts and releases the
fire aura which burns all surrounding enemies. Kain vaporizes into mist form just
as the blast wave nears, passing thru him and engulfing two more creatures that had
managed to flank Kain's rear. Nothing remains but smoldering ashes where the creatures
once stood. Kain looks around and says,"Well now we have an ideal of what we're up
against." Meanwhile Raziel looks around and sees that his Fire Aura has only destroyed
their physical bodies, a specter version still remained of all twelve of the creatures.
He would have to impale these specters using the Reaver in order to feed off their soul.
and reducing them into specters made them faster, for their movements were now blurs.
Kain could offer no help since it was just outside of his realm of existence. Raziel
would have to take on these twelve creatures alone. Raziel ponders to himself. 'In this
realm are their tooth and claw as deadly to me, as they are to Kain in the Physical Realm?
I must not suffer a wound in order that I don't find out.'

'For I will surely end up in purgatory if bested by one of these foul beasts....So in saving
Nosgoth I create for myself a horde of beasts which I must face alone.'
Ariel speaks to Kain for the first time since entering the blade.
Kain, as the Balance Reaver I shall make visible to you things not visible on this plane
of existence.. and before his very eyes he see's into the spectral realm.
Ariel goes on to tell him. You can not directly affect anything in the Spectral Realm
but your Balance Reaver can. At that the Balance Reaver emits a bright pulse destroying
the creatures and leaving only their floating souls in it's purest form. Raziel devours
them. Raziel laughs at the irony. You need my help in the Material realm and I need yours
in the Spectral, I could never have fathomed this moment....Raziel says. Kain replies,
"Indeed, it would seem the intertwining of our fate is undeniable.......
and ever unchanging despite the destruction of the Elder God."

[Linikratyo]

Okay I stopped at the moment I heard freeing Raziel from the Reaver :rasp:

[c4spinn]

Okay I stopped at the moment I heard freeing Raziel from the Reaver :rasp:

*noted*
(it's funny u should say that because ur the same person who posted that "this sounds like another Black Rose" on another thread...u didn't seem to stop at the moment you READ about freeing Raziel on that post)


**Ok I like the character Raziel, I (this is my opinion) feel like he's the best character ever created, and to have such a great character's destiny end with being trapped inside of a sword that he's wielded so fantastically is such a waste. His sacrifice was noble and all the more reason why his fate should be rewritten..I only ask to keep an open mind, that change and anything is possible.....nothing remains the same....MyPoint:: Years b4 Soul Reaver You'd not have believed it was possible for a vampire to come back from the dead and devour souls IN THE LOK SERIES....Had I written a story about Raziel years b4 he was created "most" people would down talk the idea simply because it makes Raziel appear more powerful than the main character of the story...So just keep in mind that it's possible...>>I read on alot of the threads that Raziel has completed his destiny<<. who says destiny ends where you completed it? How do you know there's no greater destiny that can only be achieved by reaching your destiny...(kinda off topic) IE:Michael Jackson, his destiny was to be a singer....he reached his destiny at 5 years old, he continued on, Record setting album Thriller, Inventing the Pop Genre, and eventually becoming the "King of Pop." so you see his ultimate destiny was not to become a singer...but a Legend....And if you're basing your idea's on the prophecy foretold ...how about this prophecy ~And behold! A savior whose emerged from an inescapable prison, a blade wrought of death and destruction liberated by a sacrifice shall be a vital instrument in the salvation of our world. As foretold by the prophets visions which came to them upon the demise of the Elder God.~

[c4spinn]

keep in mind that you are in the "Soul Reaver" subtopic..so pardon me if we're not drolling over Kain and making everything Kain based....but ur comment is noted, u'd rather see Raziel as a soul trapped inside of a sword....any soul can be trapped in a sword, but not any soul can be Raziel...so his fate is a generic one...and not acceptable for a legendary character.

[Linikratyo]

The Series isn't called Legacy of Kain for nothing. The story is about Kain, Raziel is simply a good character that got a good chance to show his character. He ended in a noble act. If you simply undo that then was the act still noble? Then it was simply an act of nonsense, because it then didn't make a good impact anymore. It is better to die a glorious death than to live forever.

This (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80236&page=4) proofs that most fans agree that he should stay inside the Reaver.

(Sorry if I sound a bit mean, but I personally like Kain more than Raziel, though the difference isn't that big and I don't like Raziel coming back out of the Reaver simply because people couldn't let him go (it isn't a fairy tale you know))

[c4spinn]

The Series isn't called Legacy of Kain for nothing. The story is about Kain, Raziel is simply a good character that got a good chance to show his character. He ended in a noble act. If you simply undo that then was the act still noble? Then it was simply an act of nonsense, because it then didn't make a good impact anymore. It is better to die a glorious death than to live forever.

This (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=80236&page=4) proofs that most fans agree that he should stay inside the Reaver.

(Sorry if I sound a bit mean, but I personally like Kain more than Raziel, though the difference isn't that big and I don't like Raziel coming back out of the Reaver simply because people couldn't let him go (it isn't a fairy tale you know))

Ahh but you see Kain and Raziels fates are intertwined, so Kains Legacy also involves Raziel seeing as he created him and his actions are that in which can't be undone....Kains legacy involves creating Raziel...what else has Kain created that still remains to this day? Not his army, those where dispatched by Raziel...So what does the Legacy of Kain consist of? without Raziel he couldn't even see the Elder God, without Raziel he wouldn't have even been able to defeat the resurrected Moebius, Raziel ripped The Heart of Darkness from Kains chest remember....anyway enough about all of that...because if CD made a new Soul Reaver bringing Raziel back out of the sword you'd have to do nothing but accept it. If the creators decide it's possible then it's possible. Me being the creator of this work of fiction says it's possible in this work....so there it is....if you don't like it create a story where Raziel can't come out of the sword.

Difference between you and I is that I'd read your work and not trample on it merely because Raziel can't come out of the blade. I'd judge your work on creativity, concepts, and characters borrowed and built upon....

Kain is a cool character I take nothing from him, But still has weaknesses and can still be killed. Raziel has been there an done that. He's done the vampire hunter thing for years, he's done the vampire thing for millennium, he's even evolved where Kain could not, he's done the reaver souls thing throughout different time spans, now he's doing the ravenous soul inside a sword thing....A legend if ever I heard of one.
Fin.

[Aranor]

Raziel did come out of the sword. The same moment he went into it. He can't come back out until that moment comes around again. Otherwise the story is gone. Raziel also was nothing more than a segment of Kain anyway. Kain is now whole once again and Raziel is gone. The only way I see Raziel being set free is if the human portion of his soul still remains and retains what he was. Though by this time (After thousands of years bound inside the reaver) it would probably take years for him to retain self control.

Kain is whole once again and it is he who must undo what he has done.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

About the werewolves, did you get this idea from that secret area in Blood Omen? I've wondered about that too.
The problem with Raziel coming out is that Raziel chose to sacrifice himself for a greater cause. Raziel is my favorite character in the series, but I feel that it would just be a cheap cop out if he came back after sacrificing himself. Also, it wouldn't make sense for the Soul Reaver to be a soul reaver if it didn't have Raziel's soul devouring soul in it. There is no suggestion in the series that Ariel would have that kind of power, and the Reaver has to break on Raziel eventually remember, and the reason it breaks is because of the paradox of it trying to devour its own soul. I'm not sure where you're going with this idea, but it has to make sense with what came before.
Personally, I would love another game with wraith Raziel, but I'd like that game to be the original version of Soul Reaver (in case you don't know, they had to cut some things from Soul Reaver because they ran out of time. More information here: www.thelostworlds.net). I just loved the gameplay in Soul Reaver so much. Actually, not just the gameplay, but everything about it, and unfortunetly, none of the games that came after that one came anywhere near how great that game was.

[The Hylden]

I am covering a lot. Please do not be offended, but a lot of this needs to be stated. I am trying to help...

Moments after Kain
slays The Elder God Kain is struck with a vision given to him by Ariel...
It tells of a coming storm.

Kain doesn't slay the Elder God, simply keeps him at bay enough to make his own escape from the crumbling Citadel. The Elder god is huge, under everything, it seems... Kain nicked an eye and a couple of tentacles... Not much in the avenue of “slaying.”

She inform him
their tooth and claw are infected and capable of turning humans into
one of them, also that Kain is powerless to stop them since one bite,
one scratch would corrupt his blood turning it black and thick as tar.

Kain has run into Werewolves before and defeated them. He certainly would know of their affects and their weaknesses (given he's ruled over Nosgoth for thousands of years by this point), to the degree of fighting them in battle as a young vampire, before becoming uber powerful (though, he's been pretty uber from the start:p), and afterward if there were any that resisted. I seriously doubt that their bite and their scratches would do anything to him in this vein. While I love werewolves more so than vampires ever, I think you are shoving this antagonist in our faces suddenly and that it doesn't hold with the rest of the series. If werewolves are to be reintroduced, they should be so in the vein that Corpse Core is trying to, by making them fit within their origin and this continuance. Giving them this much sudden and abrupt dominance is a Dues ex Machina, far more than most any out there.

The future of Nosgoth lye in peril lest they can free Raziel from the
Soul Reaver. Kain asks how can they accomplish such a task? She tell
him that it requires a sacrifice, that she shall enter the blade and
push Raziel's sprit from the blade, thus becoming trapped in the
wraith blade. Kain insists that it can not be done.

And Kain is utterly right. The Wraith Blade is only ever Raziel and will only ever BE Raziel. It's not just because he's a spirit. It's not just because he's a spirit who has developed the ability to feast on souls, like other Wraiths, who were vampires once, but it is ultimately because it is he who is the ONLY being in Nosgoth with free will. You CANNOT simply shirk him aside for another to take his place. It is like putting a lump of coal in the place of a uranium/plutonium amount inside a nuclear warhead. No matter how much of that coal you try and shove in that warhead, it will never produce the same effect. Ariel also knew that it was only Raziel that could be this when she reunited with the souls of her predecessors. “YOU must unite what has been set asunder... Only then will the Scion of Balance be armed for his task ahead... Only then.” If she could have simply took up the mantle, she wouldn't have bothered to lend her spirit to Raziel in the first place, but simply have told him to not worry and to step aside while she did it herself...

Ariel informs him
that when the blade was forged it held many secrets, true it was
intended for Raziel to dwell inside, but the blade is also a tool for
the Scion of Balance...

All of which she knows at the end of Defiance, yet again. She knows Raziel has to go into it. She's not going to stand by while this happens, only to tell Kain a few moments-to-hours-whatever later that, oh, yeah, I can go in there; here's how you get Raziel out... Come on, now. You're just trying to put Raziel back in the place the creators never wanted him to be in. He IS the Reaver... That's something that I wish all would get over.

My balance would be forgiveness, and
imprisoning myself inside the blade of the very man who took my life
would be the ultimate act of forgiveness...

What is this supposed to mean? Kain didn't take her life... Vorador forged the blade and he didn't take her life either... Janos and the Ancients asked Vorador to forge the blade, then the Ancients lent their vampiric magics to it, and none of them took her life, nor were any of the above a part of her death... Mortanius, under the influence of the Hylden Lord within him, took her life... This is irrelevant...

Raziel's destiny was to dwell
inside the blade it did not say forever....

And he doesn't. Answer from the Creators, themselves:

8.How can the wraith blade be sucked into the blood Reaver with Raziel's soul, wouldn't that mean that there
are two souls in there?

The purified wraith blade that Raziel possesses is not drained into the Soul Reaver along with Raziel. In order for Kain to become purified by the wraith blade that contains the purity, the wraith blade must be dispersed or released from its imprisonment into Kain. Thus in that one single moment Raziel is simultaneously trapping himself within the Reaver but as well finally freeing himself from thousands of years of torment.

Sorry, but he has no need of screwing up established rules of, not only time, but “real world” logic as well in order to free himself. He does it in Defiance. People won't look at this as enough to let it be, however...

he's fulfilled his destiny now it's time to write a new destiny......
because my destiny is to forever dwell inside of the Soul Reaver.
It's why I've never rested. Never crossed over. Wandered Nosgoth's pillars
endlessly with the Reaver ever present in the recesses of my mind...

Never something Raziel states. Let's not mix fan-fiction with this fiction's fact, please. You only wind up confusing yourself and others.

Raziel was the tool needed to destroy The Elder God, for only his creation could cause his destruction. As the former Balance Guardian I complete you as the current Balance Guardian. My
soul inside of the Reaver shall form the Balance Reaver, and you shall
be complete...The Scion of Balance and his Balance Reaver. You nor I could not complete our destinies until Raziel completed his. Now that his task is done, it is time I fulfilled my duties as the former Balance Guardian.

The Scion, Kain, was already purified by Raziel for his task to be the Scion. Further completion, he does not need. Perhaps they would add something to complete him further, but really? It can't be better than the moment his corrupted soul is purified, like it was in Defiance by Raziel, so why bother? You don't go back to the well once you've already gotten full off of it. It only cheapens the well.

And again, Ariel is not ever going to substitute for Raziel inside of the blade. That's not for sentimental value, nor an unwillingness for change, simply just because of the absolutely strict rules already given for Raziel's presence within the blade. You, I think grossly, are forgetting this same Reaver needs to eventually wind up back in Avernus, where Younger Kain will find it in BO1... That's right – this is the Younger version of the Reaver – the one that will endure for thousands of years until it is broken over Raziel's head in SR1. The only reason it breaks over his head and Raziel winds up taking up the Wraith Blade inside in the first place, is the very fact that the Wraith Blade inside IS his future self. None of this would occur if it were any other soul but his own. Ariel cannot, and will not, ever do this impossible task.

Kain says.
"How have I come to be freed from the Soul Reaver?" Raziel asks.
Kain repies,"Theres no time to explain. I must know, are you still able
to manifest the Sprit Reaver?" Raziel tries to summon the Reaver, and as
he does he feels a portion of himself leave him and form the blade.
"It feels different, something has changed." Raziel says. "Your Reaver
is your own now, for Ariel dwells inside of my blade. Fate has saw it fit
to cast a new stone into the ripples of time waters. We now exist in a new
thread of time. Outside of the loop we both formerly traveled once before.
The destruction of The Elder God has ushered in a new future, a new reality.

And this whole portion of real world logic you've completely ignored to come up with this insanity. Sorry, but Raziel's “Spirit Reaver” is his own soul... It is a futuristic version of himself from the very Reaver you are trying to take him out of.... As stated above, he doesn't go into the sword. If you watch the end of Defiance with Vampmaster's camera trainer on, you can manipulate the angle to see that, just as in Soul Reaver 2, Raziel's future self – the Wraith Blade – snakes down Kain's arm from his chest, where Raziel has his hand, both purifying Kain and going down Kain's arm to then pull in his younger self – Raziel – into the sword. "The Wraith Blade only ever truly wants itself to be created, because otherwise it will never exist. Raziel does not “have” his own version of it without it... He can't have a manifestation of himself that is not the future version hanging on his arm he had. He never had it before. It's his own soul... Do you understand? Raziel does NOT possess the Wraith Blade by default. It is his own self that is bound to him, for the sole reason that it is his future self that must be there to coax his younger self, Wraith Raziel, into the blade in the first place. Raziel is a mass of circular destinies. He cannot fully change them, but he has free will enough to thwart the preexisting timeline a smidgen. Not a whole lot, just enough... The one thing that must, MUST remain constant, though, is that he IS the Soul Reaver.... There is no alternative... Sorry.

I haven't read beyond the points mentioned. They negate anything else coming afterward, so... I am not being a jerk, nor being close-minded. This, you will find, is one of the most thought-out, strictly-ruled fictions you will come across in the avenue of time and destiny. You have to abide by the rules set forth, or no-one is ever going to take it seriously (no-one who understands truly what is going on, at least). I would advise you to look about the site for the answers section to questions to the Creators in the Archives here... The greater compilation of Q & A sections in Nosgoth.Net's forum Library (the only portion worthwhile, imo:p) will help further, as well as Dark-Chronicle.co,uk, TheLostWorlds.Net, and the general threads currently live in the various sections here, as these issues are resurfacing again (I think the hiatus of a new game, unfortunately, is making even the most dedicated fan forget the specifics at times, and we have a lot of the basics coming up as questions again – it's inevitable, with now 6 years without a game...)...

[Linikratyo]

Thanx for your support! :D

[DarkKnightRuthless]

i started playing as raziel in SR1, the purpose was to hunt down kain, im sorry i just can't see them two on the same side per-say. Raziel was cast into the depths of the vortex by Kain, he climbed out to get revenge. Why would they now be on the same side? Kain is jealous of Raziel because of the fact that raziel has evolved and become better, jealousy isn't something that you can just cast aside with ease. Albeit is a great story, i throughly enjoyed reading it and thank you for taking the time to write it out. But pitting them two together, tag-team style just doesn't seem right to me.

[The Hylden]

Kain did not have Raziel cast into the Abyss because he was jealous. If you've played the games beyond SR1, you find this out. Raziel didn't evolve past Kain, Kain simply used this as an excuse for the the others to buy why he would order his favorite son destroyed. Kain saw into the Chronoplast chamber ages ago that the only being in Nosgoth -- the being that would eventually ebcome the Soul Reaver in the past -- that could help him restore Nosgoth from the doomed fate that Kain, himself, had been coerced to cause, was, in fact, Raziel. He was waiting for the moment when Raziel would change. Raziel had to have his wings first, or else he wouldn't resemble the fallen version of Raizel that Kain saw as the Wraith in the Chronoplast chambers -- the only being alive with free will and the power to help Kain change everything. It was the only way, the only. Way. Possible. Kain could have any hope of changing anything. If he doesn't Abyss Raziel, Raziel never gets remade into the Wraith, therefore never gets to the point that he's about to become the Soul Reaver for Kain to save. Also, nothing changes and Nosgoth simply dries up further until all life dies from the land, including Kain's already doomed empire. Raziel and his brothers, along with Kain, were all DOOMED. This was their only way out.

Kain says in Defiance:

I knew what ominous hour this was in Nosgoth's history. For here was the event that had shaped my entire existence... I had cast my fate, refusing the sacrifice, damning the Pillars, and founding my doomed empire upon their ruins. I would raise the Sarafan priests to be my closest Lieutenants, and would one day cast the strongest of them, my servant Raziel, into the Abyss - dealing one last hand to play against Fate. But in the end, had it made any difference? Had I misread the signs, as Moebius told me? In my arrogance, had I missed my cast at destiny?

Jealousy was never an issue. Raziel makes the decision he does because of the long journey in the past through SR2 and Defiance that he sees the manipulations within EVERYONE in the land that forced this scenario to be the only way out for Kain and them all. Raziel, by the end, knows fully Kain had no other choice. Does this wipe away the pain and suffering Raziel had to endure? The betrayal still? No, but like any father and son relationship, where something thas driven them apart, something that caused each of them pain, or only one, perhaps, over time, realizing there might have been other reasons, something bigger than just them at stake, is enough of a reason for the one, or both, hurt to put aside the past. Raziel never works beside Kain in Defiance until finally at the end. He takes out his revenge in the game, in fact, when they do meet and nearly kills Kain in the battle...

You have played Defiance and Soul Reaver 2, right? Maybe you just missed this all...

[Escaton]

Raziel didn't evolve past Kain,

I agree with everything you wrote except this - it's unsubstantiated. I think the reason why Kain wasn't infuriated when Raziel surpassed him was because he was already aware that it would happen, not because it simply didn't.

[Linikratyo]

I agree with everything you wrote except this - it's unsubstantiated. I think the reason why Kain wasn't infuriated when Raziel surpassed him was because he was already aware that it would happen, not because it simply didn't.

It seems rather odd that someone like Raziel could stand up against the Scion of Balance, who is also 500 years older than him and uses the Soul Reaver...

It's simply logic to find the answer...

[The Hylden]

No, it's not odd at all.

And Kain has batform, which is a much better way to fly than Raziel. If wings are considered evolving past Kain, that's silly. Always has been. Kain was flying 500 years before Raziel would ever see the light of day again... So, no, it's not unsubstantiated, just based on logic (haha).:rolleyes:

[Escaton]

How on Earth is it odd? The fact that Raziel "stood up" to Kain was the entire preamble for ripping off his wings and tossing him into the Lake of the Dead. Also, he did fight the Scion of Balance and killed him with his own sword in William's chapel, in the first SR2 timeline.

The Soul Reaver has zilch to do with Kain's physical evolutionary status. It's a weapon. If Melchiah had it even he'd be feared. When you fight Kain for the first time Raziel clearly marks the Reaver as "older than any of us and a thousand times more deadly". Attacking anyone competent who wields the Soul Reaver would be suicide.

However the lieutenants did evolve/devolve/whatever far quicker than Kain did - it's even admitted that they did so due to the corruption they inherited from Kain's soul. There's no reason to believe Raziel didn't evolve past his sire. Unlike the "Kain wasn't really jealous at all, take a closer look at his face" thing, this hasn't been "retconned". It's what the developers told us so on the contrary I think it's illogical to assume otherwise.

[Linikratyo]

How on Earth is it odd? The fact that Raziel "stood up" to Kain was the entire preamble for ripping off his wings and tossing him into the Lake of the Dead. Also, he did fight the Scion of Balance and killed him with his own sword in William's chapel, in the first SR2 timeline.

The Soul Reaver has zilch to do with Kain's physical evolutionary status. It's a weapon. If Melchiah had it even he'd be feared. When you fight Kain for the first time Raziel clearly marks the Reaver as "older than any of us and a thousand times more deadly". Attacking anyone competent who wields the Soul Reaver would be suicide.

However the lieutenants did evolve/devolve/whatever far quicker than Kain did - it's even admitted that they did so due to the corruption they inherited from Kain's soul. There's no reason to believe Raziel didn't evolve past his sire. Unlike the "Kain wasn't really jealous at all, take a closer look at his face" thing, this hasn't been "retconned". It's what the developers told us so on the contrary I think it's illogical to assume otherwise.

if you call evolving into a monstrious creature becoming more powerful then yes...

[The Hylden]

Exactly.

Q: Why didn't Kain evolve any further once Raziel had grown his wings?
A: The corruption inherited by the Lieutenants was what caused their faster evolution - and later their devolution. Kain is not necessarily influenced in the same way.

The Lieutenants were already weaker by a good amount than Kain when they start out. Their faster evolution to reach a closer footing to Kain is basically negated by their devolution into the hulking beasts they become. And Kain is still evolving, or growing more powerful, it seems, but it's very much implied that Kain simply doesn't show it so drastically physically like his offspring. I don't see any of them as surpassing their master in any way, except girth... The games also wouldn't make sense from a gamers point of view if you can beat all of these stronger things before you finally face Kain, the ultimate boss... The first time Raziel does fight Kain, he basically hits him 3 times. Kain laughs as he makes his exit. The next time at the end of SR1/opening of SR2, Raziel has the Wraith Blade. With the Wraith Blade, he does hurt Kain. If you go off the SR2 opening, however, he never hits Kain with it and Kain basically takes a few shots from him, then blasts him away. His line takes quite a different turn of "You nearly had me, Raziel." If he's hit by the Wraith Blade in SR1's ending, the line is quite labored and honest. If you again go by the SR2 opening, then it's more surprise Raziel was able to hit him at all, basically. Kain doesn't seem to be huffing it, that's for sure.

The last fight is in Avernus. The whole time Kain is trying to make Raziel simply reason, while Raziel is fighting for his life. If Kain wasn't taking his guard and efforts down quite a tad, I don't think Raziel bests him. While Raziel charges up to pull out the heart from Kain, Kain's pleading for him to to listen that he, Kain, isn't the cause of Raziel's coercion that's happening into the Reaver.

Basically, from the games, there's nothing to support Raziel certainly surpassed Kain and I doubt his lesser brethren then have a chance to have either.

[Escaton]

Well here (http://uk.videogames.games.yahoo.com/pc/previews/legacy-of-kain--defiance-defa98.html)'s some counter-gospel from Amy and Richard which directly and clearly states he evolved beyond Kain. It's as recent as Defiance so the whole SR2 plot/motive/true enemy turnaround isn't an argument.

It's not a question of who'd win in a given fight, especially not when it isn't a fair one with the Soul Reavers coming into play. It's just one of who's more vampirically/physically evolved in the SR1 opening. You said it was Kain yet the correct answer is Raziel. That's all I wanted to point out. I don't favour either of them or anything (okay maybe Kain but by a very small margin).

Dumah and Turel are both pretty clear about their state in comparison to Kain as well, though I'd then point out that we should consider the sources.

[The Hylden]

All that article states is first the "reason" for Raziel's Abyssing: "Raziel was once first among Kain's vampire lieutenants but was condemned to the Abyss for an apparent transgression against his master. He evolved beyond Kain, developing a pair of leathery wings. Kain tore the wings from Raziel's back, and ordered his fellow lieutenants to throw his broken body into the vortex at the center of the Lake of the Dead." In fact, "an apparent transgression against his master" is how they word the first statement. They then elaborate on what that "apparent transgression" was in the next. They aren't concluding this is the reason for Raziel's abyssing, only explaining what the going reason was at the time of the act. They then recount this reason when Raziel by explaining Raziel's journey and what he figures out later: "In the beginning, Raziel was driven only by rage and a lust for vengeance. As his quest deepened, he realized that Kain had not destroyed him out of jealousy but as part of some greater plan."

I think Raziel, himself, is a good source to be the final judge. Only after absorbing Turel's soul does he finally say in their fight in Avernus: "And now, my powers may even surpass yours." If it took THIS long for Raziel to think that maybe, just maybe NOW he MIGHT surpass Kain, then even Raziel by this point realizes that growing those wings, and any point prior to this fight in Avernus, meaning even his own rebirth as a Wraith or their previous encounters in SR1, he was not Kain's equal. Now, as you say, if we're talking about Turel, or Dumah, and their somewhat insane/to totally insane posturing, then their boasts aren't something to take very truthfully, but Raziel has no reason to be shy right here about his actual assessment of his own strength, especially given he's being driven by blind rage, fueled further by the Hylden souls he just took in also. Yet, he's very conservative in his own chances here.

Again, Kain has batform. Wings are meaningless as a notion of evolving past him.

[Escaton]

He evolved beyond Kain, developing a pair of leathery wings

How much more conclusive can you get? A line of dialogue in Defiance which semi-implies Raziel (who then wasn't even in his vampiric form, which is the one I've been referring to) once considered himself weaker isn't, for me, enough to revise the concept laid out by the series' lead designer.

This is physical evolution, not who has more cool powers in their inventory. Kain's bat form isn't part of his Dark Gift or his heritage, it's a shapeshift ability he received from a card in Blood Omen. (although I realise that's what could be called a gameplay device.) He won't grow wings anyway.

Whatever unknown trait Kain is developing isn't as highly-developed as Raziel's, therefore Kain used this as a cover excuse to fling him into the Abyss. We (including the six lieutenants) all believed it was out of envy. It wasn't at all, but the fact that Raziel did out-evolve Kain is what made the theory plausible.

As was said Kain is probably evolving very subtly which may explain where Raziel's "my powers may even surpass yours" line came from. Kain might have resurpassed him in the 500 years Raziel was burning to death.

Raziel surpassed Kain and was, to our initial knowledge, considered a traitor. This is simple and fundamental stuff. I didn't think it was even up for debate.

[The Hylden]

How much more conclusive can you get?

Again, you're ignoring the context of this sentence, as it comes right after "an apparent transgression." They aren't saying conclusively that Raziel evolved, and that what was once apparent was correct; they're simply stating what the apparent transgression was. Apparently, Raziel was Abyssed for evolving past his master and being a traitor. Clearly, we find out later that's NOT why he was abyssed by Kain.

A line of dialogue in Defiance which semi-implies Raziel (who then wasn't even in his vampiric form, which is the one I've been referring to) once considered himself weaker isn't, for me, enough to revise the concept laid out by the series' lead designer.

Raziel in his Wraith form is far stronger than his vampiric one, with many more abilities, so it should absolutely be considered. And you wish to chop only the segment spoken by the lead designer and ignore what leads up to that statement to make it conclusive for you. It certainly does not make the meaning of that statement conclusive. If someone asks me why a guy walked up to another guy and punched him in the face and I say, "Well, apparently what's being said to everyone is that the guy did something really bad to the guy who punched him. He slept with the guy's girlfriend and that's why the guy hit him," that doesn't mean the guy actually slept with the first guy's girlfriend, simply that this is the reason that was heard of why it happened. That was the reason Kain gave to the empire, and that's exactly how the lead designer described it. Apparently, "A" happened. "A" was this. A=Raziel was a traitor; further explained, A was evolving past the master. Later on, Raziel finds out this is not the reason, and we do too... This shouldn't be up for debate, no.



This is physical evolution

Then I'd call it the first moment of devolution instead, as growing past the humanoid form only leads to ruin for the vampires of Kain's lineage... Evolution = something that would threaten Kain's own power, some ability, or form, that would make Raziel closer to, as, or more powerful than Kain. None of that ever happened.

Whatever unknown trait Kain is developing isn't as highly-developed as Raziel's, therefore Kain used this as a cover excuse to fling him into the Abyss. We (including the six lieutenants) all believed it was out of envy. It wasn't at all, but the fact that Raziel did out-evolve Kain is what made the theory plausible.

Well, maybe you did. I never believed for a moment that's why Kain abyssed him, from the first moment I saw that FMV, which was before I ever knew the story of SR2, or Defiance was ever a dream in Amy Hennig's head:p

As was said Kain is probably evolving very subtly which may explain where Raziel's "my powers may even surpass yours" line came from. Kain might have resurpassed him in the 500 years Raziel was burning to death.

Raziel surpassed Kain and was, to our initial knowledge, considered a traitor. This is simple and fundamental stuff. I didn't think it was even up for debate.

No, only labeled a traitor, as you said, conveniently to quell the empire to Kain's strange and outlandish decision. A covering lie isn't truth just because the empire believes it...

[Escaton]

Okay if you can find me an out-of-game source which states Kain was actually both bluffing and lying (never directly lying is one of his main character traits) then I'll be prepared to agree with you. There's no such source as far as I know yet there are many to support the fact that Raziel (briefly) surpassed Kain. The lead designer summarised her concept in the article I linked. The context of doubt attached to the previous statement doesn't somehow automatically make the reverse of the next one true.

Raziel constantly expresses revulsion and disgust at his own wraith form several times in SR1 and SR2. Add to this the fact that Kain had the Reaver and five centuries on him and... yeah.

Raziel:
Kain would enter the state of change and emerge with a new gift. Some years after the master, our evolution would follow - until I had the honour of surpassing my lord.

That sums it up. To say otherwise without support from an interview or something is just fan conjecture.

The evolving/devolving thing is also partially addressed at the beginning of Soul Reaver

Raziel:
What are these creatures?

Elder God:
Do you not recognize them? They are the children of your brother, Dumah.

Raziel:
That’s impossible - these foul, scuttling beasts could not be kin of our high blood.

Elder God:
Do you suppose that time stood still for you, Raziel? Much has changed since you passed from the world of men.

and in an interview.

The corruption inherited by the Lieutenants was what caused their faster evolution - and later their devolution. Kain is not necessarily influenced in the same way.

[Aranor]

Here is a quote from the link you pasted. With the paragraphs in their entirety. To quote Amy Hennig:


"Raziel was once first among Kain's vampire lieutenants but was condemned to the Abyss for an apparent transgression against his master. He evolved beyond Kain, developing a pair of leathery wings. Kain tore the wings from Raziel's back, and ordered his fellow lieutenants to throw his broken body into the vortex at the center of the Lake of the Dead.

The descent into the watery maelstrom should have destroyed him, but instead Raziel was transformed. Resurrected by a mysterious ancient god in the depths of the Abyss, Raziel emerged to wreak his vengeance upon Kain and his former brethren--no longer as a vampire but now as a reaper of souls."



The first sentence states why he was condemned and the apparent transgression against his master. The second line forward goes into explaining what that apparent transgression was.

Here is meriam-websters.com definition of apparent
Main Entry: ap·par·ent
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈper-ənt, -ˈpa-rənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French apparant, from Latin apparent-, apparens, present participle of apparēre to appear
Date: 14th century
1 : open to view : visible
2 : clear or manifest to the understanding <reasons that are readily apparent>
3 : appearing as actual to the eye or mind
4 : having an indefeasible right to succeed to a title or estate
5 : manifest to the senses or mind as real or true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be factually valid <the air of spontaneity is perhaps more apparent than real — J. R. Sutherland>



As for this one
[The corruption inherited by the Lieutenants was what caused their faster evolution - and later their devolution. Kain is not necessarily influenced in the same way. /QUOTE]

1) this could be taken a number of ways. A) There is potential he did follow this cycle and the line was just something to get people thinking. B) Kain does not follow this cycle (Which I will go into more in a bit) C) Maybe he does some times maybe not others.
He obviously did change some as he no longer has the peachy flesh color nor the pale while color, he has horns, and his flesh is more plated like badly designed armor than flesh.

2) In followup to B, is contradicts this line in the game
[QUOTE]Kain would enter the state of change and emerge with a new gift. Some years after the master, our evolution would follow. Until I had the honor of surpassing my lord. For my transgression, I earned a new kind of reward... agony.


It was not that Kain did not follow the cycle....it is that one time Raziel did not follow the cycle.

As for evolving past Kain, again apparent transgression. Sure he could fly, maybe, we never saw him do so. Kain accomplished this already though be it different means. Kain also showed the ability to teleport at the end of Soul Reaver. (In the FMV fight scene)

And as for Raziel "Standing up" against Kain...I dunno where that comes from. In the opening movie I see Raziel kneeling It wasn't really a "Hey you stupid noob look what I got." moment so much as a "I am sorry my Lord." moment.

Also keep in mind that the corruption each of the leutenants has originates from Kain. And neither of them individually has more of Kains soul within them than he himself.

[Linikratyo]

Okay look farther than the beginning of Soul Reaver, because the others are trying to refer to events around SR2 and beyond.

Raziel constantly expresses revulsion and disgust at his own wraith form several times in SR1 and SR2. Add to this the fact that Kain had the Reaver and five centuries on him and... yeah.

What do you want to say with this?

[Aranor]

Was that for me Linik? I think I am missing something there. In that quote all I can see is Raziel saying he's ugly and Kain is old.

[Corpse Core]

Ok, lets have look at this from a different angle....

When Kain and the others saw his wings for the first time it could have been more of an 'o' crap kind of moment, thinking his wings signified that Raziel may have just surpassed Kain in vampiric evolution. However, this wouldnt be entirely the case since evolution comes in not just one, but two different forms.

The first evolutionary form would be the physical, which I would agree that Raziel came very close to, if not surpassing Kain.

The second evolutionary form would be various unique abilities and enhanced telekinesis, which suffice to say Raziel was no where close to Kain's equal.

[Escaton]

Okay look farther than the beginning of Soul Reaver, because the others are trying to refer to events around SR2 and beyond.

Both interviews I quoted are from just before and after Defiance's release. Plus the subject of the vampires' evolution is barely ever mentioned or returned to after SR1, unlike the question "why did Kain execute Raziel, was he envious or not".

What do you want to say with this?

It explains "now my powers may even surpass yours". You might have noticed that Raziel doesn't personally hold his wraith form in the highest esteem.

The first evolutionary form would be the physical, which I would agree that Raziel came very close to, if not surpassing Kain.

Isn't that the one we've been referring to all along? About five times I've iterated and reiterated that cool weapons and powers from shrines and cards in Blood Omen 1 have nothing to do with Kain's physical evolution.

We (at least, I) have been talking about the evolution of Raziel/Kain's personal Dark Gift. Raziel's became more advanced than Kain's and Kain used this as a cover for firing him into the Abyss when he was actually trying to defy fate by "creating" a creature with free will. It's that simple.

There is no convoluted "oh, no, Raziel wasn't really more evolved than I was, I've somehow managed to mislead my own vampires about the nature of their race's evolutionary patterns just to carry out the crazy triple bluff I never once mentioned in the games. Fooled you all". Or at least none that the developers have ever spoken of.

[Linikratyo]

Both interviews I quoted are from just before and after Defiance's release. Plus the subject of the vampires' evolution is barely ever mentioned or returned to after SR1, unlike the question "why did Kain execute Raziel, was he envious or not".

You know I made a video about why Kain executed Raziel taken from quotes out of the games that explain his action, since this was something I couldn't understand fully either, I couldn't get it to export it in full quality so I will try to figure that out somewhere soon.

Now I remembered something though:
Kain ~ Defaince: knew what ominous hour this was in Nosgoth's history. For here was the event that had shaped my entire existence... I had cast my fate, refusing the sacrifice, damning the Pillars, and founding my doomed empire upon their ruins. I would raise the Sarafan priests to be my closest lieutenants, and would one day cast the strongest of them, my servant Raziel, into the abyss - dealing one last hand to play against Fate. But in the end, had it made any difference? Had I misread the signs, as Moebius told me? In my arrogance, had I missed my cast at destiny?

For anyone who tries to explain Kain's actions: this is your proof.


It explains "now my powers may even surpass yours". You might have noticed that Raziel doesn't personally hold his wraith form in the highest esteem.
true, true


Isn't that the one we've been referring to all along? About five times I've iterated and reiterated that cool weapons and powers from shrines and cards in Blood Omen 1 have nothing to do with Kain's physical evolution.

We (at least, I) have been talking about the evolution of Raziel/Kain's personal Dark Gift. Raziel's became more advanced than Kain's and Kain used this as a cover for firing him into the Abyss when he was actually trying to defy fate by "creating" a creature with free will. It's that simple.

Okay in what way would Raziel benefit more from his wings than Kain can benefit from his own powers? :scratch:

Oh he could fly to the top of a building!! :eek:
Kain would simply teleport there... :whistle:

He could fly out of the range of Kain's teleportation! :eek:
Kain would simply use batform here... :whistle:

Oh now I know! He could after a strike fly up out of the attackers reach! :eek:
Kain would simply hit him then with a nasty spell... :whistle:

But Kain can't fly back when after a fast strike! :p
Well, Kain wouldn't have to when he would smash his skull immediately with the Soul Reaver or else he would simply teleport away. :whistle:

Now I can't think of any other advantages of Raziel's wings, but all my reasons couldn't match Kain's abilities :wave:

[The Hylden]

Okay if you can find me an out-of-game source which states Kain was actually both bluffing and lying (never directly lying is one of his main character traits) then I'll be prepared to agree with you. There's no such source as far as I know yet there are many to support the fact that Raziel (briefly) surpassed Kain. The lead designer summarized her concept in the article I linked. The context of doubt attached to the previous statement doesn't somehow automatically make the reverse of the next one true.

... Ok, guess I'll post this ... yet again...

Kain:

I knew what ominous hour this was in Nosgoth's history. For here was the event that had shaped my entire existence... I had cast my fate, refusing the sacrifice, damning the Pillars, and founding my doomed empire upon their ruins. I would raise the Sarafan priests to be my closest Lieutenants, and would one day cast the strongest of them, my servant Raziel, into the Abyss - dealing one last hand to play against Fate. But in the end, had it made any difference? Had I misread the signs, as Moebius told me? In my arrogance, had I missed my cast at destiny?

Kain's own explanation of why he did what he did, to deal one last hand in play against the fate he's bonded to. Not the traitor that had the audacity to surpass him; none of that is ever mentioned, because it was never the reason...



Raziel constantly expresses revulsion and disgust at his own wraith form several times in SR1 and SR2. Add to this the fact that Kain had the Reaver and five centuries on him and... yeah.

Expressing revulsion at his physical appearance is not the same as saying this form is weak and I've lost a lot over the centuries. The opposite is the truth for Raziel in his Wraith form.

The Elder God in SR1:

Your physical prowess surpasses what you knew in life. Even massive obstacles can be moved effortlessly.

Just like Dumah, or any other Wraith that has remained to continue without being eaten in Spectral, a vampire's soul only increases in strength, not diminishes. The soul is where the vampires of Kain's brood hold their real power, and as long as it remains, they continue to grow in strength. Dumah's boasts of surpassing Kain aside, he's right that he increases in strength by remaining in limbo over the centuries in Spectral. Raziel was far stronger than ever in his vampiric form, if this new physical prowess is something he's not used to. Regardless of the aesthetic value of this new form and the emotional baggage it brings to bear witness to it, or to know this is what he's become, Raziel has noted that his power has vastly increased being reborn to it.

That sums it up. To say otherwise without support from an interview or something is just fan conjecture.

Raziel went into the state of change sooner this time, which is what it says. Raziel thought that was an honor, and that it meant he surpassed his lord, and then thought that this was a traitorous act and that he was betrayed and destroyed for it, by Kain's decision to destroy him. He's recounting his own understanding of the situation as it happened... If he thought he surpassed him then truly, he wouldn't think that he may have done so centuries after his strength and everything was far increased as a Wraith... Raziel has had to learn much about what he once knew as truth, and what truth really is.

Why you quoted the exact same interview portion I did is beyond me at this moment. But, it appears others have answered things before I got here. Apparent means what seems to be, not necessarily what actually is...

It explains "now my powers may even surpass yours". You might have noticed that Raziel doesn't personally hold his wraith form in the highest esteem.

Again, having revulsion for the grotesqueness of the look of the form is not anywhere equal to thinking the power, or powers, Raziel has now are diminished from his vampiric form. He's far stronger before even sucking up the others' souls. Now, he's also gained powers from sucking up all of his brethren, like immunity to water and advanced TK, which he's quite happy to show Kain that his TK is just about there with Kain's own... However, again, Kain wasn't out to destroy Raziel, but simply make him shut up and listen. He wasn't ever going to fight with his all. To the point, Raziel's assessment of his own power is still unsure, even after all of this growth, against the power of Kain. That says it all.

Now, I shall await Escaton with my rubber mallet behind me, for when he tries to rebut this all again:p

The thing is, I don't get what exactly your advocating here exactly... You KNOW, as we all do by now, that Kain only did what he did to turn Raziel into the Wraith with free will that he saw in the Chronoplast was to become the entity in the Soul Reaver... That's the ONLY reason Kain did what he did, having seen this in the Chronoplast chamber. You know it's not because of petty jealousy, yet even though you KNOW all of this, you're arguing the contradictory point that Raziel actually did surpass Kain and could be considered a traitor... It was an obvious excuse. If you know Kain has higher reasons for what he's doing, then you can understand there's no transgression here in actuality that Raziel gets abyssed for. As Janos said about banishing the Hylden, and the old tired phrase (but true): it was a necessary evil. The traitor bit was a convenient excuse to quell the empire.

[Corpse Core]

I agree......

[c4spinn]

Okay ok guys...Kain clearly cast Raziel into the Abyss because he knew he was bound by fate to do so...it wasn't because of the wings...The displeasure shown on Kain's face after the wings had been revealed, was his regret for he knew what task came next....Kain knew you can't have a ravenous soul inside the Soul Reaver without The Ravenous Soul...

[c4spinn]

And about The Elder God...It only makes sense to kill him off since the voice actor playing him has passed away and recasting someone else 2 play his voice would probably do more harm than good for such a awesome role....Case in point The New Freddy Kruger in "A Nightmare on Elm Street."

[c4spinn]

check out my avatar is ownzz

[c4spinn]

I have the Soul Reaver on the other arm

[Linikratyo]

check out my avatar is ownzz

your avatar it a bit small to see what's on it and you have to stop triple posting :p

[Escaton]

Sorry I haven't returned to this debate, if it matters to anyone. I wanted to, but haven't had much chance and it seems redundant to post a lengthy page of rebuttals and elaborations now.

In short, hopefully eliminating the tautology and tangents: I realise Kain threw Raziel into the abyss to defy fate and not out of jealousy, maintain the opinion that Raziel out-evolved Kain since this fact was never contradicted, retconned or altered, and reiterate again that Raziel out-evolving Kain doesn't mean he grew more powerful or stronger or better than Kain any more than, say, a butterfly is more powerful than a caterpillar. It's just the next state of evolution, it gives him a more enhanced Dark Gift, nothing more.

[Linikratyo]

Sorry I haven't returned to this debate, if it matters to anyone. I wanted to, but haven't had much chance and it seems redundant to post a lengthy page of rebuttals and elaborations now.

In short, hopefully eliminating the tautology and tangents: I realise Kain threw Raziel into the abyss to defy fate and not out of jealousy, maintain the opinion that Raziel out-evolved Kain since this fact was never contradicted, retconned or altered, and reiterate again that Raziel out-evolving Kain doesn't mean he grew more powerful or stronger or better than Kain any more than, say, a butterfly is more powerful than a caterpillar. It's just the next state of evolution, it gives him a more enhanced Dark Gift, nothing more.

glad you got over it ;)

[Escaton]

Yeah, I successfully managed to maintain the very same viewpoint I started with.

[Linikratyo]

Yeah, I successfully managed to maintain the very same viewpoint I started with.

okay :confused: