Batgirl or Oracle?

[Tim Drake]

Hey guys, I was wondering what you're opinions on Batgirl/Oracle are..? While I realize that DC likes having a strong disabled character, I kinda feel like the role could have been filled by someone other than Barbara. Besides, the Killing Joke wasn't ment to be part of continuity, so they didn't really need to "revive" her as Oracle. I'm not such big a fan of Batgirl that it really bothers me to lose her, but I find her whole situation kinda depressing though. Anyways, what do you think? Keep Oracle or return her to form?

[Drazar]

Yeah because a 30 year old woman posing as a girl is just brilliant. =p Now really as much i hate people taking the killing joke cannon (which isnt something Alan Moore even intended) and making her this weak Oracle. We just have to stick with it really. Kathy Kate/Bate/something is the Batwoman. Cassandra cain is rumored to not be a batgirl anymore but if she is replaced then it should be Square the british girl because really, a 30 year old woman posing as Batgirl is just no. =p But there are big hints atm she is becoming Batgirl again tho.

Just to note she is close to her 30s but not officially 30.

[The Joker 1]

Hey guys, I was wondering what you're opinions on Batgirl/Oracle are..? While I realize that DC likes having a strong disabled character, I kinda feel like the role could have been filled by someone other than Barbara. Besides, the Killing Joke wasn't ment to be part of continuity, so they didn't really need to "revive" her as Oracle. I'm not such big a fan of Batgirl that it really bothers me to lose her, but I find her whole situation kinda depressing though. Anyways, what do you think? Keep Oracle or return her to form?

I think that the Oracle is like a new character that DC invented from Batgirl, so they are both good, cause Batgirl is a good fighter and she Kick Ass, sorry for the bad word in here:rolleyes:
And the Oracle is good because she finds useful information for the Batman. I prefer Batgirl

[Tim Drake]

Yeah because a 30 year old woman posing as a girl is just brilliant. =p Now really as much i hate people taking the killing joke cannon (which isnt something Alan Moore even intended) and making her this weak Oracle. We just have to stick with it really. Kathy Kate/Bate/something is the Batwoman. Cassandra cain is rumored to not be a batgirl anymore but if she is replaced then it should be Square the british girl because really, a 30 year old woman posing as Batgirl is just no. =p But there are big hints atm she is becoming Batgirl again tho.

Just to note she is close to her 30s but not officially 30.

Gotta admit, I completely forgot about the age thing. To me, non of the characters really age unless they're kids (like the different Robins). I'm just finding it kinda hard to care about the Batgirl replacements, especially when they're from the DC c-list heroes, as with Squire.

[stoobytoons]

Actually, I don't care for anyone in the Bat-family other than Batman himself. Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman, Bathound, Bate-Mite, Batcat, Batfat, Batrat, Bat...shat. They're all gimmicks to appeal to a certain, and sometimes smaller, demographic of readers. Robin was for kids, Batgirl and Batwoman were conjured up as if to say "Yes, girls can be heroes too." It's just gimmicky and convoluted tripe. I'm not sure if Alan Moore would agree with me here but the lemonade they made out of Barbara Gordon's would-be career ending wound was rather brilliant. Who needs a Bat-person at half effectiveness when she could rock the intel angle for Batman?
Now, if they could only find a way to get rid of Robin for good.
Damned character has more lives than Catwoman...

[Drazar]

Actually, I don't care for anyone in the Bat-family other than Batman himself. Robin, Batgirl, Batwoman, Bathound, Bate-Mite, Batcat, Batfat, Batrat, Bat...shat. They're all gimmicks to appeal to a certain, and sometimes smaller, demographic of readers.

I disagree with everything outside Batgirl/Batwoman. Those two began as gimmicks for female counterparts but now are their own standalone characters. + Batmite is cool! :P

Robin was for kids

No, the writers after 1 year of writing Batman got fed up with Batman always thinking and they wanted him to have someone to have a conversations with, so they created Robin. Batman is the hero who _started_ the sidekid trend. ;) Robin has evolved into an absolutely amazing character and Tim Drake has managed to hold his own comic serie longer than characters such as The Question (who are main characters) ever could. He is that well developed and interesting character.

Batgirl and Batwoman were conjured up as if to say "Yes, girls can be heroes too." It's just gimmicky and convoluted tripe.

Mmm but the newer versions are cool. Tho they did kinda make Kathy kate into a lesbian because well they lacked lesbian heroes, but she still kicks ass and looks good while doing it. :p

I'm not sure if Alan Moore would agree with me here but the lemonade they made out of Barbara Gordon's would-be career ending wound was rather brilliant. Who needs a Bat-person at half effectiveness when she could rock the intel angle for Batman?.

Except Barbs had been far more effective when she was Batgirl, but now she is kinda JLA hero who helps and organizes teams.

Now, if they could only find a way to get rid of Robin for good.


Tskh! Anyone who says thart has no real understanding of the badassery Tim and Richard Grayson provided, + Damian Wayne is a total badass.:cool:

Really, i know alot of people are like "oooh Batman works alone the best, hes grim and dark and serious" but really withouth the great supporting cast, the humour. Batman would just be a boring guy who fights crime everynight, Batman is an ideal and an organization. (Since he has the Outsiders) The whole true point of Batman is to fight crime as a team to make sure there wouldn't be more tragic children who lose their parents to crime and whatnot.

[Batman-tdk]

Actually guys I saw the concept art of oracle in the latest issue of pc gamer

[stoobytoons]

I disagree with everything outside Batgirl/Batwoman. Those two began as gimmicks for female counterparts but now are their own standalone characters. + Batmite is cool! :P

No. Batgirl and Batwoman are characters you read about when they don't make enough Batman titles... in other words, never (in my case.) lol


No, the writers after 1 year of writing Batman got fed up with Batman always thinking and they wanted him to have someone to have a conversations with, so they created Robin. Batman is the hero who _started_ the sidekid trend. ;) Robin has evolved into an absolutely amazing character and Tim Drake has managed to hold his own comic serie longer than characters such as The Question (who are main characters) ever could. He is that well developed and interesting character.

I had heard something to that effect at one point, but the truth is that publishers thought Batman was getting too dark and that they were losing younger readers. They included the sidekick and started the trend to help younger readers feel as though they could make a difference.
As far as Robin being "badass," perhaps you could explain why nobody want to touch the character in the movies again? It's just a silly idea when you follow a logical path of thinking.


Mmm but the newer versions are cool. Tho they did kinda make Kathy kate into a lesbian because well they lacked lesbian heroes, but she still kicks ass and looks good while doing it. :p

Again, a gimmick. I don't mind Cassandra Cain as she's got a darker history than the original. It makes more sense why she's so highly trained. Still, I find it strange that she couldn't find her own personality.


Except Barbs had been far more effective when she was Batgirl, but now she is kinda JLA hero who helps and organizes teams.

In what way was she more effective? By enticing more readers with a fetish for women in skin-tight costumes? I mean, let's call it what it is. haha


Tskh! Anyone who says thart has no real understanding of the badassery Tim and Richard Grayson provided, + Damian Wayne is a total badass.:cool:

Really, i know alot of people are like "oooh Batman works alone the best, hes grim and dark and serious" but really withouth the great supporting cast, the humour. Batman would just be a boring guy who fights crime everynight, Batman is an ideal and an organization. (Since he has the Outsiders) The whole true point of Batman is to fight crime as a team to make sure there wouldn't be more tragic children who lose their parents to crime and whatnot.

Oh man.. you better check your sources. Where on God's green earth does it say that Batman sat near a window one night while he contemplated his future and a TEAM of weak characters flew through his window??? It's HE would don the guise of bat. HE would turn fear on criminals. HE would avenge HIS parents murder by protecting those who can't protect themselves.

People don't just arbitrarily say Batman works best alone. He is a lone soldier in his own personal war on crime! It's his mission, plain and simple. The rest of these characters are just liabilities *cough*Jason Todd**COUGH**Barbara GORDON***COUGH****JEAN PAUL VALLEY****

It comes down to this: Batman is what it's all about. Everything else is just accessory.

[Drazar]

No. Batgirl and Batwoman are characters you read about when they don't make enough Batman titles... in other words, never (in my case.) lol

So your saying you don't read their comics and say their bad because its Bat ladies? Way to judge a comic pal.

I had heard something to that effect at one point, but the truth is that publishers thought Batman was getting too dark and that they were losing younger readers. They included the sidekick and started the trend to help younger readers feel as though they could make a difference.

I double checked and were both correct. It was because they wanted Batman to talk with someone + younger readers, due to Robin the sales increased twice. Really Batman and Grayson have an awesome synergy together, their funny, their serious their the Caped Crusaders!


As far as Robin being "badass," perhaps you could explain why nobody want to touch the character in the movies again? It's just a silly idea when you follow a logical path of thinking.

What does movie indrusty have to do with this? Honestly the sad truth is when a common person thinks about Robin, they think about this guy (http://www.batfriend.com/images/robin/robin_01.jpg) and before you can say "I'm Batman" you can hear someone saying: lol thats so gay.:rolleyes: (sorry for using the term gay, but it fitted here, hope it doesn't offend anyone). Joe Schumar also made Robin godawful, you can basicly translate Robin's speeches in both Batman Forever & in Batman & Robin into this:
http://trouble.pwblogs.com/wp-content/uploads//2009/03/crying-baby-giant-eyes1.jpg

Really thats what Robin was in Joe's movies. Now Nolan and Christian have said Richard is in diapers in the Nolan verse, and really having Batman with a 10 year old would be godawful, yet Christian Bale's favorite comic book happens to be "Dark Victory" which is exactly about Robin's origins. Robin might not really work out in live action format, but that doesn't mean he couldn't in video games, animated films and especially in comics.

Again, a gimmick. I don't mind Cassandra Cain as she's got a darker history than the original. It makes more sense why she's so highly trained. Still, I find it strange that she couldn't find her own personality.

Well wasn't that the whole mental thing with her father David Cain?

In what way was she more effective? By enticing more readers with a fetish for women in skin-tight costumes? I mean, let's call it what it is. haha

Fightning crime with Bruce and being there for him. Batman needs supporting members or else he would go sociopathic, this is something Frank Miller's All-Star Batman was facing until Richard came along.

Oh man.. you better check your sources. Where on God's green earth does it say that Batman sat near a window one night while he contemplated his future and a TEAM of weak characters flew through his window??? It's HE would don the guise of bat. HE would turn fear on criminals. HE would avenge HIS parents murder by protecting those who can't protect themselves.

Have you read Hush? It exactly shows how Batman has more family than some people such as Hush, also i want you to take a look at this picture (http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/batman-alignment.jpg) and especially take a look on: Lawful Neutral & Neutral Good. This is what i'm really talking about. Also we all know Batman talks with Alfred all the time, and Alfred is Batman's biggest hero, withouth Alfred there wouldn't be Batman.

People don't just arbitrarily say Batman works best alone. He is a lone soldier in his own personal war on crime! It's his mission, plain and simple. The rest of these characters are just liabilities *cough*Jason Todd**COUGH**Barbara GORDON***COUGH****JEAN PAUL VALLEY****

Yet why does Batman have Robin, Batwoman, Spoiler, Nightwing, Huntress, Zatanna, his Outsiders & being a member of JLA? Batman is never alone and thats the truth.

It comes down to this: Batman is what it's all about. Everything else is just accessory.

Thats not how DC sees it atleast. ;)

[stoobytoons]

^I'm going to comment on your post... and God there's a lot to slap you with. But first I need to buy my hot girlfriend a smoothy and some cough drops.

[Amputechture]

Drazar, you are a passionate, passionate man...HaHa. I respect your knowledge of Batman and appreciation of all things Batman. I agree with you on some points and some not of course, but that's because we are individuals.

Can't fault Stooby for that. I just started reading comics seriously but I also give things a chance, heck, I watch Brave and the Bold because of you, HaHa.

I personally don't like Robin or any of the other characters. I like my Batman to be alone and definitely devoid of other "superheroes." Even Battle for the Cowl seemed more like a Brave and the Bold episode because everyone was there...but in the long run unnecessary to the main plot.

But so is the nature of comics...you NEED character's for the protagonist to interact with. It can be done well with all the Robins, Batgirls, etc. It can also be done with Batman as a lone hero as long as he has other character's like Fox and Gordon around. Sure it could be boring, but that is the challenge of a talented writer.


Good things do come from everything though...without a Robin we would never have a Nightwing.

[Drazar]

Drazar, you are a passionate, passionate man...HaHa. I respect your knowledge of Batman and appreciation of all things Batman. I agree with you on some points and some not of course, but that's because we are individuals.

I like solo Batman too but on the long run if you just have this GRIM DARK BATMAN HUNTNG FOR VENGEANCE. It does lose its charm. I mean you look at Batman Begins + The Dark Knight and you notice the humour comes from 1) Bruce Wayne 2) Luscious Fox 3) Alfred 4) Gordon and ofcourse Joker + Scarecrow had their thing. But the 4 other points come from the synergy of Batman, and thats why the sidekicks are there too. I'm really optimistic on Brave and Bold's Teen Robin (maybe he becomes Nightwing on the show, i hope so). The voice seemed good and his lines were typical teenager humour. :P


I watch Brave and the Bold because of you, HaHa.

That show will be so great it will make people rise from the grave, believe it!

I personally don't like Robin or any of the other characters. I like my Batman to be alone and definitely devoid of other "superheroes." Even Battle for the Cowl seemed more like a Brave and the Bold episode because everyone was there...but in the long run unnecessary to the main plot.

The sidecast on the comic was just to show how many people cared about Bruce Wayne/Batman really. This is why theres the Justice League & Batman's Outsiders. :cool: You should start picking up Judd Winnick's Batman since that seems to be just about him, while Batman & Robin is yeah. =p I'm intriqued by Paul Dini's Streets of Gotham & Gotham Sirens too... oh god the montlhy cost. :(

But so is the nature of comics...you NEED character's for the protagonist to interact with. It can be done well with all the Robins, Batgirls, etc. It can also be done with Batman as a lone hero as long as he has other character's like Fox and Gordon around. Sure it could be boring, but that is the challenge of a talented writer.

Fox and Gordon work perfectly in the movie world, but you barely see Fox in the comic world because here Batman pretty much develops his own machinery practically. + Batman is an ideal and thus it widespreads and yeah we all know what will happen if Batman was just alone fightning crime.. *cough* psycho *cough*

Good things do come from everything though...without a Robin we would never have a Nightwing.

Indeed, but Nightwing was beginning to get boring with his shifting relationships and normal thug fightning, his next chapter in the story seems really interesting tho. :) But i do wonder who the new Batgirl will be. :O

[stoobytoons]

So your saying you don't read their comics and say their bad because its Bat ladies? Way to judge a comic pal.

I'm saying I don't read their comics because they are a spin off. They are derivative of something much, much better. I can be down with Huntress and was even okay with The Spoiler. But there's no need to keep rehashing the "bat" thing for characters that didn't have the original inspiration.


I double checked and were both correct. It was because they wanted Batman to talk with someone + younger readers, due to Robin the sales increased twice. Really Batman and Grayson have an awesome synergy together, their funny, their serious their the Caped Crusaders!

Again, the whole point was to increase sales. Oh, the almighty dollar once again takes precedence over true literary substance. If I want funny, I read Spider-Man. If I want synergy I read X-Men. I read Batman because he scares the bloody hell out of criminals not because I didn't get enough adventures in babysitting.



What does movie indrusty have to do with this?

Only that I'm not the only person that believes what I am saying to be true. And for a movie to be the 2nd highest grossing motion picture in history, that means a lot.

Honestly the sad truth is when a common person thinks about Robin, they think about this guy (http://www.batfriend.com/images/robin/robin_01.jpg) and before you can say "I'm Batman" you can hear someone saying: lol thats so gay.:rolleyes: (sorry for using the term gay, but it fitted here, hope it doesn't offend anyone).

Actually, Robin fit for the series. It's not as if Batman was dark and brooding in the 60's. And "campy" probably would have been a better term. "Gay" is when two men.. well, that just didn't happen.

Joe Schumar

I think you mean "Joel Schumacher."

also made Robin godawful, you can basicly translate Robin's speeches in both Batman Forever & in Batman & Robin into this:
http://trouble.pwblogs.com/wp-content/uploads//2009/03/crying-baby-giant-eyes1.jpg

What speeches again? I only gagged at his enormous armpit bush.

Really thats what Robin was in Joe's movies. Now Nolan and Christian have said Richard is in diapers in the Nolan verse, and really having Batman with a 10 year old would be godawful, yet Christian Bale's favorite comic book happens to be "Dark Victory" which is exactly about Robin's origins. Robin might not really work out in live action format, but that doesn't mean he couldn't in video games, animated films and especially in comics.

I thought the movies didn't matter to you?
Well, I can't speak for Bale in this instance. I was almost certain he was into Year One and Long Halloween. Be that as it may, **** Grayson doesn't show up until chapter 9 of Dark Victory. And there are many more interested subplots to the book than the introduction of Robin.


Well wasn't that the whole mental thing with her father David Cain?

Can you be more specific?

Fightning crime with Bruce and being there for him. Batman needs supporting members or else he would go sociopathic, this is something Frank Miller's All-Star Batman was facing until Richard came along.

So, in the 10+ years that Batman hunts down criminals and crazies in the most horrible city in literary history since Saddam and Gomorrah, after years of soul searching, mental and physical training, AND after seeing his parents murdered before his very eyes.... he's all of the sudden in NEED of a little boy to bring him back to reality?

Puh. Leeze.

Batman is human and he overcomes all kinds of obstacles; physical, mental, and emotional. Alfred may give him a pep talk once in a while, but ultimately Batman makes the conscious decision to overcome his thirst for ultimate revenge. Go watch The Dark Knight again.


Have you read Hush? It exactly shows how Batman has more family than some people such as Hush, also i want you to take a look at this picture (http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a288/Gugenheimer/batman-alignment.jpg) and especially take a look on: Lawful Neutral & Neutral Good. This is what i'm really talking about. Also we all know Batman talks with Alfred all the time, and Alfred is Batman's biggest hero, without Alfred there wouldn't be Batman.

I'll be honest. I have Hush on my shelf but I have yet to read the entire series. I bought it more for Jim Lee's art. It's on the list after "The Man Who Laughs."

So what? The poster is very moving. But as I said, Batman makes his choices. And he has yet to drop a guy into molten metal.... like Jean Paul Valley did after a year of being Batman.



Yet why does Batman have Robin, Batwoman, Spoiler, Nightwing, Huntress, Zatanna, his Outsiders & being a member of JLA? Batman is never alone and thats the truth.

To sell comics, homey. To sell comics. It's an effort to please everyone, and sadly, that just doesn't happen.

Thats not how DC sees it atleast. ;)

And I'm sure you'll take a loving spoonful and say, "Please sir, can I have some more."

[The Boshart]

Batman family is pretty low on the list of derivative characters for DC. I mean you have the superman team who all have the exact same powers, and the green lantern universe has a bajillion (not a real number) Green Lanterns, as well as Lanterns for all the colors of the rainbow.
At least the bat-family have different reasons for becoming heroes, and different areas of expertise then Batman (Grayson is far more agile)

[Amputechture]

There are places for all Drazar and Stooby...Comics (especially the main lines) tend to have more character's because it's a continuous story...and yes, no matter what, just seeing Batman take out thugs every issue will get old. But so is the challenge with Batman...

I know you may disagree but most of the time Bruce's personal life isn't all that fascinating.
Spider-Man tends to focus heavily on his personal life and those involved...and MANY supporting character's were imagined from the inception of the series.

I am not saying Spidey is better (I enjoy him more, but love Batman too...) I am just saying that more initial character's were there and thus more possible storylines as well...I think Stooby is just frustrated that they add so many Bat characters...I can see why.

Spidey has that too but it's in the pages of Spider-Man Family and not Amazing...I think that is really his issue. They should just have more lines...some solo, some with his Super Friends...so be it. It's all Batman in some way...pick what you DO like. :thumb:

[stoobytoons]

Batman family is pretty low on the list of derivative characters for DC. I mean you have the superman team who all have the exact same powers, and the green lantern universe has a bajillion (not a real number) Green Lanterns, as well as Lanterns for all the colors of the rainbow.
At least the bat-family have different reasons for becoming heroes, and different areas of expertise then Batman (Grayson is far more agile)


My exposure to Superman comics is pretty low. Let's face it, the rogues list is one of the weakest in comparison to Batman and Spider-man. Though, it makes sense since, as I recall, the Super-family hails from the planet Krypton and they all derive their powers from the our yellow sun.
The Green Lantern is passed on from generation to generation (or something to that effect) and has a natural lineage of Green Lanterns from all across the universe. That's the concept of the character's origin.

The comic version of Batman seems to inspire copycats and apparently throws his hands up in the air when they come knocking at the cave door.
Look, we don't need 40 bajillion Batgirls, Batwomen, or Robins. It's not that bloody hard to do something DIFFERENT and something that makes SENSE.

That said, I'm perfectly fine with Nightwing. His look, and his mission, make sense. Anything before that, doesn't.

There are places for all Drazar and Stooby...Comics (especially the main lines) tend to have more character's because it's a continuous story...and yes, no matter what, just seeing Batman take out thugs every issue will get old. But so is the challenge with Batman...

I know you may disagree but most of the time Bruce's personal life isn't all that fascinating.
Spider-Man tends to focus heavily on his personal life and those involved...and MANY supporting character's were imagined from the inception of the series.

I am not saying Spidey is better (I enjoy him more, but love Batman too...) I am just saying that more initial character's were there and thus more possible storylines as well...I think Stooby is just frustrated that they add so many Bat characters...I can see why.

Spidey has that too but it's in the pages of Spider-Man Family and not Amazing...I think that is really his issue. They should just have more lines...some solo, some with his Super Friends...so be it. It's all Batman in some way...pick what you DO like. :thumb:

Well, yeah. I do disagree to an extent. It's not great reading to follow Bruce around dinner parties or lifting weights for an entire book. But you have to remember that without BRUCE WAYNE you don't even have Batman. He's the guy! It all started with him. And following his story and his challenges as both Batman and Bruce Wayne is why I pick up the comic. I don't pick it up to see how many new recruits he's added to the club house. If I wanted that, I'd resort to Archie comics. Blech!!

[Tim Drake]

I too think that Batman works best as a lone vigilante, but I like having the other bat-characters around so they can be used whenever the storyline needs it. Kinda like TAS handled Robin and Batgirl. They weren't in that many stories, but whenever they were, they served a purpose, like Robin's Reckoning and Shadow of the Bat. I would prefer keeping the family down to Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl and Huntress though. Lastly, I'm pretty sure Batgirl and Batwoman were introduced in order to abolish the claims of homosexuality back in the 60s. I can't help wonder why the writers felt it necessary to show Batman and Robin sleeping in the same bed together...?

[stoobytoons]

I too think that Batman works best as a lone vigilante, but I like having the other bat-characters around so they can be used whenever the storyline needs it. Kinda like TAS handled Robin and Batgirl. They weren't in that many stories, but whenever they were, they served a purpose, like Robin's Reckoning and Shadow of the Bat. I would prefer keeping the family down to Nightwing, Robin, Batgirl and Huntress though. Lastly, I'm pretty sure Batgirl and Batwoman were introduced in order to abolish the claims of homosexuality back in the 60s.

I could live with that.

Though it makes sense about the claim of homosexuality, I'm shocked that they didn't think of it sooner. Gadzooks.

[Drazar]

I'm saying I don't read their comics because they are a spin off. They are derivative of something much, much better. I can be down with Huntress and was even okay with The Spoiler. But there's no need to keep rehashing the "bat" thing for characters that didn't have the original inspiration.

Original inspiration as in?


Again, the whole point was to increase sales. Oh, the almighty dollar once again takes precedence over true literary substance. If I want funny, I read Spider-Man. If I want synergy I read X-Men. I read Batman because he scares the bloody hell out of criminals not because I didn't get enough adventures in babysitting.

It wasn't just the sales. Batman would have been soo boring if it wasn't for the synergy and humour included into it. Even in today's Batmna comics theres alot of humour and if it was 100% dark grim it would be just a big snore.

Only that I'm not the only person that believes what I am saying to be true. And for a movie to be the 2nd highest grossing motion picture in history, that means a lot.

So because Robin might not work in live action format he can't work at all? Please if Robin was so bad how on earth did Tim Drake manage a #180 issues of himself and now is getting the Red Robin serie? I'll tell you why: Hes interesting, hes hardcore detective, hes funny and darker each passing day and i except the same when he becomes Red Robin.

Actually, Robin fit for the series. It's not as if Batman was dark and brooding in the 60's. And "campy" probably would have been a better term. "Gay" is when two men.. well, that just didn't happen.

Robin fits for everything outside live action format. Lets face it.

What speeches again? I only gagged at his enormous armpit bush.


I WANT MY OWN BATMOBILE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought the movies didn't matter to you?

Movies are their own thing. I mean Batman has a 100% dark costume in the movies, but why then not on the comics? Because its not needed, just because movies have something different, doesn't mean its better.

Can you be more specific?


David Cain just trained Cassandra Cain for the perfect bodyguard for Ras'al ghul. She had fought and trained for her childhood, she didn't even learn how to speak until the getting itno the whole Batfamily or so if i recall right.

So, in the 10+ years that Batman hunts down criminals and crazies in the most horrible city in literary history since Saddam and Gomorrah, after years of soul searching, mental and physical training, AND after seeing his parents murdered before his very eyes.... he's all of the sudden in NEED of a little boy to bring him back to reality?

You do realize Robin comes to the picture in Batman's 3rd year? This is established in both Frank Miller stories & Jeph Loeb's Dark Victory. He doesn't speficly need a little boy or a girl, but he needs someone to be there with him. Because really it just starts to crack him if he doesn't have any support from fightning freaks like Joker. And we all know what a nutcase Batman was on his 1st year, torturing Joe Chill mentally and eventually giving back the gun and... wel we can't tell did Joe Chill kill himself since the comci didn't show.

Batman is human and he overcomes all kinds of obstacles; physical, mental, and emotional. Alfred may give him a pep talk once in a while, but ultimately Batman makes the conscious decision to overcome his thirst for ultimate revenge. Go watch The Dark Knight again.

Ah yeah lets see Dark Knight... who was it that gave the supporting speech to Bruce when he realized his limits? Thats right, it was Alfred. Who was there for Bruce when he lost Rachel and decided to not shatter his heart & mind by giving him that letter? Thats right, it was Alfred Pennyworth, Batman's biggest hero. This is clearly established in Batman R.I.P (Which to me, is Grant Morrison's greatest tribute to Batman, having him overcome evil itself ina good ol' fashioned way).

I'll be honest. I have Hush on my shelf but I have yet to read the entire series. I bought it more for Jim Lee's art. It's on the list after "The Man Who Laughs."

Have fun with it. :) But you'll see what i mean.

So what? The poster is very moving. But as I said, Batman makes his choices. And he has yet to drop a guy into molten metal.... like Jean Paul Valley did after a year of being Batman.


I could give a good example but that would spoil Hush abit, so i'll just sadly have to except you to read it! :P

To sell comics, homey. To sell comics. It's an effort to please everyone, and sadly, that just doesn't happen.

Oh please, Batman sales would be alot worse if it wasn't for Robin and the other supporting casts, yet as i keep saying Tim Drake & Nightwing had a good amount of their own comic serie, Nightwing was starting to get bland tho and Dan Didio even suggesting killing him off. Luckily he even realized he was wrong and saw potential in Nightwing in a different level. Batman has an excelent support casts and people are interested in them. If they weren't interesting they wouldn't have their own comics that do good. ;)

And I'm sure you'll take a loving spoonful and say, "Please sir, can I have some more."

Well i am intrigued by the new Azrael serie but with all the new Battitles coming i need to be picky n what to read and what to pass. :) :P :(

EDIT: Also you pretty much should drop the whole "sales" excuse since the whole point of Batman is to sell comics. :p He has his own 2 comics after all. ;)