VIKTORIA - could she return in Thief 4?

[Jilly The Taffer]

Just speculating really, but wouldn't it be cool if our beloved Nymph returned?

Yes, she exploded into a huge plant, which then got consumed by vegetation-eating gas.

BUT

Was ALL of the plant consumed?
The highest pagan shamans/priestesses could gather around her death place and using all their pagan magic, could they somehow, bring her back?

OR

Is she immortal, remember, she isn't human. She's a nymph, and I've heard that Nymphs can spirit from plant/tree to plant/tree.
(remember in that cutscene in MA? When she appears before Garrett, wasn't she at first, just a few leaves blowing in the wind?)
So, when she exploded, could she have spirited out of Soulforge and to a nearby mansion garden or something?

AND

In the aforementioned cutscene in MA, wasn't that in fact in the Maw of Chaos?
Which means that Viktoria resides there, a different realm.
Which means that when she exploded, she could have just been re-sent back into the Maw.

Anyway, those are just my rambling theories :whistle:

Your ideas?

[KuBiLaY17]

as much as most of us would like to see her back in the series, it wont happen. she was in the first 2 series. If she had survived she would have reappeared in thief ds. But maybe thief 4 wont be after thief ds, maybe a prequel. or maybe it wont have garrett in it.

[VIKTORIA]

I obviously hold a biased view, but I don't believe that Viktoria "died" - not in any real sense of the word and especially as she is not human. So, yes, I think she could return in T4.

I consider that she merely retreated back to her roots and rests in a state of slumber and dormancy. Plantlife can remain dormant for thousands of years. During dormancy, growth stops and plants remains in a state of rest until good growing conditions return. They have evolved a range of strategies for thriving in challenging environments or surviving unusual conditions for long periods of time.

In each fragment of root or tiniest seed lies the fierce force of life - the drive within them is stronger than any other on our planet: that to "survive".

Yes, Viktoria lives.... :)


"Nature is often hidden, sometimes overcome, seldom extinguished."
- Francis Bacon

[StalinsGhost]

For a planet woman she was hawt.

Bring her back! So long as it's a logical return.

[Terr]

If she does come back, it'll be of the "took me years to recover in the ruins of soulforge" style return. 'Course, that's assuming there was some way for a spore etc. to escape ground-zero for the mutox.

Perhaps it is more likely we'd see Viktoria's "daughter" from some mystic funky-fruit left behind before she left which finally finishes germinating.

She certainly aren't active in TDS because that's Dyan's job.

[huzi73]

Hey taffers,notice that TMA was the complete opposite of TDP?In TDP,the Pagans became super strong,which resulted in Garret turning to the Hammers for help (as was suggested by the keepers methinks)in TMA,the Mechanists (basically a branch of extreme right wing Hammers)became a force,which resulted in Garret turning to the Pagans for assistence.Pretty much similar in concept.I feel,Viktoria should return,(if EM does resurrect her,please dont let us know beforehand,let us play the final game and be totally shocked/surprised to discover her) But what about the Trickster?The only super villain which sucked *** bigtime,was the final boss/old hag from TDS.Karras rocked.(please DONT feed us some bull***** and make him reappear thankyou..)(Thoug id love to see the return of the Mechanists)

[Platinumoxicity]

It would be nice to have this big memorial shrine built by the pagans inside the ruins of Soulforge, this large concentration of plants and vines growing out of the rust, where the pagans go to pay their respects.

[CurtX]

Since ghosts and apparitions are not new to the series, she could always make a return in that format.

[VIKTORIA]

^
Except she isn't human, she's a tree spirit, and as long as the Earth/nature exists, so does she.

Viktoria could easily return as a clone of herself. Many plants clone themselves naturally to reproduce by sending a small shoot-like structure, called a runner, along the soil and this grows into a new separate plant that is genetically identical to the original plant. In other words, it is a clone. Technical term is 'vegetative propagation' - the process whereby a stem or root that is in contact with soil makes an exact replica of itself and this can be obtained without production of seeds or spores. Natural vegetative reproduction is mostly a process found in herbaceous and woody perennial plants, the latter fitting Viktoria perfectly. In a sense, this process is not one of reproduction but one of survival and expansion of biomass of the individual. It is, therefore, quite feasible to consider that after Viktoria sacrificed herself at Soulforge, the explosion that ensued would easily have spread organic matter far and wide.

[Terr]

It is, therefore, quite feasible to consider that after Viktoria sacrificed herself at Soulforge, the explosion that ensued would easily have spread organic matter far and wide.

While I could certainly see a "Viktoria as embodied spirit rather than plant-entity" angle, I have to disagree with the survivability of the Soulforge ending. We know that rust-gas doesn't have explosive effects from the cutscenes, it's more of a grey-goo scenario.

So it suggests the seals in Soulforge held, which in turns suggests everything inside got scoured clean. I highly doubt the cathedral leaked. And if it did leak because of pressure, whatever came out would have been full of rust-gas.

Now, turn on your "cut-scene vision" and read along:

Scene: Abandoned (and rumored cursed) ruins of soulforge, years later. The camera pans over twisted, rusted metal and earth in the neglected site.
A large corroded metal jar begins unscrewing it's top... from the inside. A a vine slowly forces it's way out, pluging down into the soil.

[Zahr Dalsk]

I feel, personally, that judging by the way the Pagans seemed to work - emphasis on nature, life, etc, Viktoria (and the Leafie Lord) could certainly return, just as the plants regrow every year in spring.

@huzi: I'm not sure the Mechanists were right-wing. Aside from Karras, most of them seemed very progressive, and embraced things like gender equality and technological advancement. Not very right-wing.

[Terr]

Right/Left isn't really a feature of the Mechanist vs. Trickster extremes, with the sole exception of environmental issues.

And, OK, maybe you could argue that the Pagans are more accepting of "other races"... ;)

[VIKTORIA]

While I could certainly see a "Viktoria as embodied spirit rather than plant-entity" angle, I have to disagree with the survivability of the Soulforge ending. We know that rust-gas doesn't have explosive effects from the cutscenes, it's more of a grey-goo scenario.

So it suggests the seals in Soulforge held, which in turns suggests everything inside got scoured clean. I highly doubt the cathedral leaked. And if it did leak because of pressure, whatever came out would have been full of rust-gas.

Now, turn on your "cut-scene vision" and read along:

Scene: Abandoned (and rumored cursed) ruins of soulforge, years later. The camera pans over twisted, rusted metal and earth in the neglected site.
A large corroded metal jar begins unscrewing it's top... from the inside. A a vine slowly forces it's way out, pluging down into the soil.

As a 'tree nymph' (dryad/druidess) she embodies both spirit and plant entity. She is also a shape-shifter.
I used the term 'explosion' to describe the physical release of energy (matter/gases etc), not to suggest a 'bomb'-like effect - so whether we call it grey-goo or not, it makes no matter.
Yes, we can assume that the seals of Soulforge remained intact, but when I said 'far and wide' I meant within Soulforge - under every nook and cranny, inside the frames of the window panes, beneath the cracks in the stone flooring where soil is the foundation - the smallest element of her can survive (as nature shows us to be true), so I don't believe every trace of Viktoria's organic matter was obliterated. All these possibilities remain feasible...

I like your cut-scene scenario which entertains my suggestions that she is not dead, so that's always cool. :cool:
However, how do you suppose that what may be left of Viktoria is now to be found inside a sealed metal jar?

[Platinumoxicity]

She could return as the same person, with the exact same appearance, but she wouldn't remember anything about Garrett or the Eye or the Mechanists. Dyan, Larkspur and Garrett would be like: "Oh, taffin' Cripes, do we have to teach you everything all over again?" :) They would have to try to make her remember.

[Terr]

However, how do you suppose that what may be left of Viktoria is now to be found inside a sealed metal jar?

A figure darts between columns, as cold mechanical eyes turn left and right, whirring with menace. Reaching a small room, you see the shadowy figure search left and right. The figure steels itself, and plunges a claw-like tendril into it's own belly, muffling the sound and pausing to see if it was heard.

As a green glow begins to seep, a grapefruit-sized object (http://agraklanka.com/img/6a00c2252887de8e1d00c225283e1df219-320pi.jpg) is pulled out, soft yellow and green hues revealing a cowl with eyes that look back, glowing in kind. Whirring and clanking noises rise, from outside the room, and the scene is interrupted. The object is swiftly placed inside a cylindrical metal container, the top screwed on tightly by a hand whose tendril-fingers twist tightly, maintaining their grip on the metal through more than two full rotations.

Cut to the shadowy figure disappearing through the doorway. Abandoned below the table, a cylindrical canister embossed with the emblem of a gear.

[Smooogy]

Victoria's character seemed to draw her power from the Trickster, who died, and he was a GOD. If he can't come back, why should she able to, other than the fact that we like her?

The rust gas would have completely obliterated every trace of her. The only stretch (and it would be one) would be for a clone of herself, or a perhaps a child, to have been left behind with the Pagans before she went on her suicide mission.

[VIKTORIA]

A figure darts between columns, as cold mechanical eyes turn left and right, whirring with menace. Reaching a small room, you see the shadowy figure search left and right. The figure steels itself, and plunges a claw-like tendril into it's own belly, muffling the sound and pausing to see if it was heard.

As a green glow begins to seep, a grapefruit-sized object (http://agraklanka.com/img/6a00c2252887de8e1d00c225283e1df219-320pi.jpg) is pulled out, soft yellow and green hues revealing a cowl with eyes that look back, glowing in kind. Whirring and clanking noises rise, from outside the room, and the scene is interrupted. The object is swiftly placed inside a cylindrical metal container, the top screwed on tightly by a hand whose tendril-fingers twist tightly, maintaining their grip on the metal through more than two full rotations.

Cut to the shadowy figure disappearing through the doorway. Abandoned below the table, a cylindrical canister embossed with the emblem of a gear.

Extremely well written, thank you for this most adequate explanation. :thumb:




Victoria's character seemed to draw her power from the Trickster, who died, and he was a GOD. If he can't come back, why should she able to, other than the fact that we like her?

The rust gas would have completely obliterated every trace of her. The only stretch (and it would be one) would be for a clone of herself, or a perhaps a child, to have been left behind with the Pagans before she went on her suicide mission.

I understand your conclusions from what we know of the events in T1 & 2 but I am trying to think outside the box (because we can) and suggest different ways as to why it might be feasible to think that she (and, yes, even the Woodsie Lord) could come back in T4. It makes for interesting debate in any case... let's continue. :)

Now, when you say the Trickster/Woodsie Lord/Constantine can't come back - who said that? No character, parchment or book has ever stated this as conclusive fact. You suppose this from general logic (of which I completely understand, of course, because we see him fall and 'die') but the Trickster is from a magical realm within this game and not governed by our own laws of time and space and physics. Now, when you say he is dead... I can only view that as refering to his outer persona/guises rather than his inner powers. Each are two different things. I believe it is only his (dark) power that was destroyed (or at least harnessed) - that part is clear. But as to whether he is "gone for good" is open for speculation, particularly as he holds the power to shapeshift. Perhaps he has only retreated, to scheme yet another plan and rise once again. As god of nature and chaos, one can naturally assume that he will always continue to exist... somewhere, somehow. That's my conjecture and assumption based on what little evidence we have as to what the Order of the Vine actually means.

Viktoria didn't draw her power directly from the Trickster, she drew it from the Earth. After the Trickster's subsequent death (if we agree on this), Viktoria continued on to lead the Pagans and was clearly in possession of all her powers. The Pagans worshipped the Trickster as their main male diety, nothing else. In Paganism, the divine is female and male and therefore there is always a Goddess as well as a God. If we are to view the Trickster as a God, then Viktoria was a Goddess. Pagan religion endows power in all things equally although many Dianic groups (one of the most ancient) worship only the Goddess and those that do acknowledge the God see the male deity as only a part of the mystery of the Goddess. Pre-Christian societies (in the real world) were very often matriarchal with women holding leading roles as goddesses, warrior-queens, lofty high priestesses and prominent spokespersons.

The Maw of Chaos could hold a lot more than has been revealed to us. For example, it isn't clear as to whether it was just a "gateway" into another even more magical realm, probably only accessible via portals yet to be discovered. We know the MofC continued to exist after the Trickster's demise because Viktoria took it over and even altered it. Now, in T: DS the MofC is not seen, for whatever reasons. This absence of insight means that there is plenty of scope for the devs to return to the MofC and give continuation to it.

In relation to the rust gas, I still don't believe it would have obliterated every trace of Viktoria. This is because even herbicide/weedkillers cannot iradicate 100% of all plantlife it is designed to destroy. Organic matter is extremely resilient. Furthermore, given that Soulforge was a pretty big place and that the gas would have travelled quite a way further from its original source (but still within its walls), it would have become diluted/weakened as it mixed with other natural gases in the atmosphere. This diluted state means that it is less powerful at its furthest point... perhaps somewhere there lies Viktoria in dormant state?

It's fun to speculate... :cool:

[Mr. Perfect]

Uhm, not really. You could probably come up with a way to make it work, but it would feel like some sort of soap opera. "I didn't really die in that horrible explosion, because you see, I had AMNESIA! It is only now that I have regained my memory and come home!" You could then introduce the evil twin, the brain tumor, and possibly a illegitimate child with some cousin twice removed who's married to her best friend.:rasp:

That and she needn't pluck any more eyes out of Garrett's head! :eek:

[VIKTORIA]

Uhm, not really. You could probably come up with a way to make it work, but it would feel like some sort of soap opera. "I didn't really die in that horrible explosion, because you see, I had AMNESIA! It is only now that I have regained my memory and come home!" You could then introduce the evil twin, the brain tumor, and possibly a illegitimate child with some cousin twice removed who's married to her best friend.:rasp:

That and she needn't pluck any more eyes out of Garrett's head! :eek:

Yes, but such a scenario suggests a human counterpart. Neither the Trickster or Viktoria were human. :p

She sought revenge when she plucked out his eye, she had suffered very much. :(
That aside, she more than made up for it and Garrett in return held deep respect and affection for her. :)

[DarthEnder]

She's dead Jim.

If she's not dead, it kind of makes her sacrifice at the end of T2 meaningless.

[VIKTORIA]

If she's not dead, it kind of makes her sacrifice at the end of T2 meaningless.

Not necessarily. Her sacrifice would mean triggering a state of dormancy that she may not have wished for. We can call that 'death' if you like, but in plants (spores and seeds), death is really just a long sleep that can equate to hundreds or even thousands of years of non-activity; but it is still alive. A plant must 'rot' away completely (microscopically) before it can be considered truly dead. ;)

[Smooogy]

Not necessarily. Her sacrifice would mean triggering a state of dormancy that she may not have wished for. We can call that 'death' if you like, but in plants (spores and seeds), death is really just a long sleep that can equate to hundreds or even thousands of years of non-activity; but it is still alive. A plant must 'rot' away completely (microscopically) before it can be considered truly dead. ;)

I read every bit of your well written posts Viktoria ;)

And you certainly have a creative mind, and there's nothing wrong with that! But, the other guy made a point I was also thinking... If she's not dead, what about the emotional ending/sacrifice at soulfourge? We don't really want to overuse Viktoria do we? Or at least, insult the intelligence... Well not really insult the gamers, but you know what I mean. She dies in a magnificent display to stop Karras and if she comes back easily, that makes not a lot of sense.

That being said, I'm all for the Trickster God to return! If he can return like you say, bring both of em back! They were the most interesting characters anyway. Yeah, you would think it would be difficult to kill a god, but its determined by what your definition of a god is. At the end of thief the dark project, a keeper says that the trickster is dead. Surely the wise keepers would be well versed in the ways of deities one would think, and not make a blanket statement. If they knew the Trickster would always be there like you say, then they would have added some kind of ominous "beware the darkness of the eternal woods!" Message to indicate he might be lurkin

I would love for Viktoria to come back, but she admitted that her powers were weak when not in her forest. The way soulforge got a rust gas enema, I mean, come on, how in the world could she survive that? If only a tiny bit of viktoria is needed to survive and return, then I tell ya, the hammers got their work cut out for em :p That's like trying to fight John Carpenter's "The Thing!" You gotta destroy every single bit of her/it to make sure its gone! Looks like a good use for the old hammer smelting pots!

[VIKTORIA]

Thank you. :)

Yes, perhaps I could be accused of letting my imagination run away with me. :o
It is fun to speculate and perhaps if Viktoria is gone for good (*sobs*), then some sort of shrine in her memory would be a nice touch to see in T4. :)

[Smooogy]

Thank you. :)

Yes, perhaps I could be accused of letting my imagination run away with me. :o
It is fun to speculate and perhaps if Viktoria is gone for good (*sobs*), then some sort of shrine in her memory would be a nice touch to see in T4. :)



I want another wood nymph at least! The Pagans are the coolest and she was a very memorable character, plus her transformation from evil in the first game to ally in the second was a neat twist. :thumb:

I've got the same problem with Shodan from System Shock :rolleyes: I want a System Shock 3 so badly, but old Shodan probably will never see the light of day! I'd say its a better chance we see Viktoria in T4 than Shodan in a SS3 :( ;)

You seem to know a lot about paganism and that interests me. Did you know that the word Villain was derived from a pagan word for forest dweller? LoL The Romans used the word "forest dweller" to make pagans seem like the baddies and now we still see the remnants of it.

[VIKTORIA]

Haha, yes, I am sure many would like to see more nymphs. :D

I agree about the good twist and it paid homage to the power of 'opposites' - the dark and light, the bad the good, the black and white, that exists within us all. Both are equal and neither can exist without the other and it is this balance which makes me question not the 'physical death' of certain deities in Thief, but only their loss of power and influence.

I am by no means an expert but I have extensively read theology, religion, classical mythology and philosophy for many years and my personal preference (from what I have learned) always favours nature-based belief systems, not because they are the oldest, of course, but because they seem to be the most sensible all round. The more we respect nature, even in our use of technology, the wiser I think we can become. Later religions seem to contradict the underlying message of, what I would call, 'spirituality' in terms of balance and equality.

Yes, the term 'Villain' derives from the Latin root "villanus" meaning someone/thing who is 'bound to the soil', later definitions included heathen, peasant, serf, farm, country dwelling, base or low-born rustic etc, up to its current day usage. Indeed, the 'baddie' scenario illustrates perfectly the intention to snuff out paganistic beliefs. The parallels between Christianity and paganism are obvious to see, far too many to mention in fact (I could write pages!) but as one example, consider all the Christian festivals that have their original roots in paganism. There can be no denial that the adoption of paganistic practices by later religions was to attract followers, to make the transition an easier one. Even Christian churches were built upon the foundations of pagan shrines. It was a relentless onslaught of an intended agenda. :(

[kin]

One thing I would love if victoria comes back is that there will be some levels with dense vegetation. In a new engine it will be marvellous.

[Smooogy]

Haha, yes, I am sure many would like to see more nymphs. :D

I agree about the good twist and it paid homage to the power of 'opposites' - the dark and light, the bad the good, the black and white, that exists within us all. Both are equal and neither can exist without the other and it is this balance which makes me question not the 'physical death' of certain deities in Thief, but only their loss of power and influence.

I am by no means an expert but I have extensively read theology, religion, classical mythology and philosophy for many years and my personal preference (from what I have learned) always favours nature-based belief systems, not because they are the oldest, of course, but because they seem to be the most sensible all round. The more we respect nature, even in our use of technology, the wiser I think we can become. Later religions seem to contradict the underlying message of, what I would call, 'spirituality' in terms of balance and equality.

Yes, the term 'Villain' derives from the Latin root "villanus" meaning someone/thing who is 'bound to the soil', later definitions included heathen, peasant, serf, farm, country dwelling, base or low-born rustic etc, up to its current day usage. Indeed, the 'baddie' scenario illustrates perfectly the intention to snuff out paganistic beliefs. The parallels between Christianity and paganism are obvious to see, far too many to mention in fact (I could write pages!) but as one example, consider all the Christian festivals that have their original roots in paganism. There can be no denial that the adoption of paganistic practices by later religions was to attract followers, to make the transition an easier one. Even Christian churches were built upon the foundations of pagan shrines. It was a relentless onslaught of an intended agenda. :(


Yeah I learned about world religions in a class I had in college and it opened my eyes to some interesting events throughout the ages. One of them being that Christianity seems to have "lifted" *coughs - no one kill me* a great many supernatural ideas from other religions. Look up the virgin birth and you'll see what I mean :whistle:

[xXFl4meXx]

Yeah I learned about world religions in a class I had in college and it opened my eyes to some interesting events throughout the ages. One of them being that Christianity seems to have "lifted" *coughs - no one kill me* a great many supernatural ideas from other religions. Look up the virgin birth and you'll see what I mean :whistle:

How dare thee! You HERETIC! BURN!

What did you watch Zeitgeist or something? :P Oh shiz nits.. I shouldnt be going off topic.. But yes.. Viktoria should be in Thief 4... & if she wont.. I am going to cry till I cant cry no more.. Actually.. Viktoria isnt as important as the Trickster.. Yeah hes the real badass..

[Hellion]

Viktoria is dead, gone, ascended, mere rust-dust littering the ruins of Soulforge Cathedral, having sacrified herself so that Garrett would seize the day. Nothing could possibly change that. EM should leave it that way and concentrate instead on the creation of brand new but equally interesting characters.

[Terr]

I think the etymology of "villain" is less "bound to the soil" and more "farm-hand".

It doesn't describe a relationship to the natural world, but instead referred to socioeconomic class distinctions during the feudal ages.

[Belboz]

As viktoria was a plant based nymph she could have given a seed of herself to other nymphs to look after, it would take time for her to grow again, which is why she wasn't in thief 3, but after a while viktoria would be fully formed back as the nymph she was.

[Smooogy]

As viktoria was a plant based nymph she could have given a seed of herself to other nymphs to look after, it would take time for her to grow again, which is why she wasn't in thief 3, but after a while viktoria would be fully formed back as the nymph she was.


Now that's the right idea if you want a Viktoria replacement! It makes sense and is no more outlandish than some of the other developments thus far. :thumb:

[Smooogy]

How dare thee! You HERETIC! BURN!

What did you watch Zeitgeist or something? :P Oh shiz nits.. I shouldnt be going off topic.. But yes.. Viktoria should be in Thief 4... & if she wont.. I am going to cry till I cant cry no more.. Actually.. Viktoria isnt as important as the Trickster.. Yeah hes the real badass..

:cool:

[Alex50]

the appearance in temple Hammer new leader, but without fanaticism Karras. Which newly enters the mechanical device in life of the city. Garret keeps the balance. Finds the way to return Victoria. Therefor that to hear this secret, possible use the artifact - an EYE (he ancient, a great deal saw, and origin his unknown) 1-3 missions. Visit the Temple Hammer - searching for of the subject keeping spirit to Victoria. Visit Wood pagan - searching for subject required for ritual, marmosets and alive tree not pleased visit. Undertaking the ritual in heart wood.
the subject keeping spirit to Victoria will for the best be a stone to look like precious (the type emerald). Hammerit's taking away ruins of the plant has found and have sent him in its treasure house. The Gas destroyed the metal, alive body and plants. The Stone he can not damage. And stone this symbol land. А from the land grow all plants. The Good symbolism of the nature.
Konstantin can be not reborn. He is destroyed by Chaos during wrong called on ritual with Eye. He was absorbed its element.
The Rebirth to Victoria interesting, but this must be an initial episode of the plot. Allowing understand world Garrett. But do on this base of the plot uninteresting - not "TMA: episode two"

[Terr]

Yeeeeeahhh, I'd work on proofreading that one a bit. Or not using babelfish. I have a rough idea what you mean, but I'm still trying to figure out this "showering" business.

[VIKTORIA]

I think the etymology of "villain" is less "bound to the soil" and more "farm-hand".

It doesn't describe a relationship to the natural world, but instead referred to socioeconomic class distinctions during the feudal ages.

I don't want to 'fight over words', (I love puns! :D) but I think you have misunderstood me. :)
I initially referred to the term 'villanus', not 'villein' and at base level it strictly means "bound to the soil/land" because it derives from the Latin word villa (farm, country home, estate). In relation to a person (and socioeconomic class distinction) the later appropriate term used was 'villein" meaning serf or peasant, ie "someone - who is bound to the soil (of a villa)" and who is owned by the feudal lord. This class of peasants were called the 'villani' and it has long been recognized by scholars that 'villanus' cannot be fairly equated with the 'villein' of later times.


As viktoria was a plant based nymph she could have given a seed of herself to other nymphs to look after, it would take time for her to grow again, which is why she wasn't in thief 3, but after a while viktoria would be fully formed back as the nymph she was.

Yeah, that sounds good. :thumb:

[Botlas]

Seeing as any explanation of how she comes back would boil down to "it was magic," yes, I do think she could return.

Should she return? No, I think her sacrifice at the end of Metal Age was part of what made the ending so good. She uses Garrett in Dark Project, and then helps him in Metal Age. It's a good twist, and would be made less interesting if it turns out she didn't actually die.

[GmanPro]

Being one of my favorite characters from the series, I'd like to at least read something about her in Thief 4.

[Terr]

I initially referred to the term 'villanus', not 'villein' and at base level it strictly means "bound to the soil/land" because it derives from the Latin word villa (farm, country home, estate).

OK, but in that case, while a related word, it's not where we got "Villain" from.

The whole "bad guy" angle is attached to the serfs, not the land. The pejorative-ization of "villain" wasn't a denigration of nature or anti-pagan sentiment, but instead an expression of class conflict and distrust of the unwashed masses. (With a healthy helping of "The amount of wealth you have is indicative of your virtue" assumptions.)

[Nate]

I liked her too. But I think the depth of her sacrifice (and how she was killed) prevents this from being viable.

[Myth]

"Shh! Quiets you! Them manfools bes all abouts!" The Shamans' angry stare glared in to the moonlight night, and struck primal fear in Fafret's heart. He nodded and kept his head down, his feet flapping softly against the cobblestone floor. The night was cold, quiet and only the wind could be heard, howling in the narrow streets of the City. Some windows still shed dim yellow light, but all the doors were barred for the night and no one but Fafret and Ceila could be seen moving about.

The shaman had long red hair, braided and tangled with sweetroot blossoms and plumsie buds. Her body was slim and adorned with a robe of leaves and vine, and her footsteps light and nimble. Fafret liked the shaman, he had urges towards her, but was reluctant to express them. "Shaman strong - scary. She hits poor Fafret's head hard. She doesn't wants to mate."

"Stops mumbling you foolsie! We bes near them Hammerfools!" She was right - in the distance, a patrol of two large Hammerites made their way in to the imposing ruin of Soulforge cathedral - a dark, ominous shape, towering over the nearby buildings and soaking up the moonlight with it's twisted features. The Hammerites, mail-clad and armed, walked in the streets and talked quietly between each other, their footsteps echoing around the alleyways.

Somehow, Ceila and Fafret managed to evade them, and made their way in to the courtyard of the cathedral ruins. In the abandoned yard they saw the shy attempts of shrubs and mosses to reclaim some ground for the Woodsie Lord, after the destruction of the evil Karras and his stronghold. But still, most of the wide, tile covered area, was barren and gray. In the distance, a green light blinked, near the massive gates, sealed with wards by the Hammers.

The pagans rushed down, eager and trembling - Fafret's heart was beating faster and faster as they approached the entrance to the evil place. Before the massive steel gates, they met with five more women, all wearing attire similar to Ceila's, and all wielding the staffs of the Woodsie Magics, and three more men, armed and naked from the waist up. Fafret knew some of them, but kept quiet and let the shamans talk.

"You bes late Ceila! We cannot waiters for you all night. Them Hammerfools scurry about, like rabid dogs."

Ceila's face darkened, her emerald eyes gleaming with anger, but she remained silent. Fafret decided he did not want to get himself between the arguing shamans, and just drew his bow and waited. A mosquito landed on his arm and started sucking blood, which made the young pagan grin, revealing a missing front tooth. "Looksie - a bugsie." Without pause he grabbed the mosquito and ate it, making a loud sucking sound.

"Quiets you straw brain, don't brings them Hammers to us!" The older shaman was a stern, white haired woman with a wrinkled face, half covered with ritualistic tattoos.

Once again, Fafret looked down with shame, observing his own feet - hairy, with dried mud covering them up to the knees. "I bes no straw brain" - he thought. But then he remembered the sweet plumsies he had stored back in the shelter, and swiftly took his mind off the shaman.

The group of women chanted something with low voices and their staffs glowed with green light, as the crystals at their tips light up, resembling will-o-wisps. With a loud "clank", the ward sealing the gate broke off, and released the massive doors. Fafret had never been so scared in his life - when the massive doors swung open, he nearly soiled himself, expecting the deathrust to come and melt off his face.

However, the inside of Soulforge was dark, littered with broken gears and dead tin-men, and covered with dust. Thankfully, it was just regular dust, the one that makes you sneeze, not the one that makes your body look like a plumsie that had stayed too much in the sun.

Still, Fafret was very reluctant to put his feet on the floor, but could not show fear before Celia. The others quickly followed, and two of the other men light torches, their light barely reaching the other end of the vast chamber. Old machinery and tools lay around scattered and rusted, and the ceiling hid in darkness high above their heads. In the middle there was a patch of moss, the only greenery that had survived the horror.

"It bes here, i knows it! Here bes where Viktoria fell to thems tin men!" Celia's voice echoed in the large chamber with excitement. The others started mumbling, some even knelt and touched the blessed patch - it was moss beyond doubt, cool and fresh to the touch, as if it had grown alongside the bark of a tree deep in to the forest.

"Praise bes to the Woodsie Lord, we must starters!" The old shaman brought forth her staff and started singing, the younger ones accompanying her with their melodic voices. One of the men brought out a small wooden flute, another - a hand drum. Their music flowed, filling the chamber with life. The shaman sung of rain, of forests and foxers, and bears, and wolvers, of light and moss and mud and river, the melody flowed and the music became louder. Fafret and the others started dancing in a circle, shaking their weapons with the enchanting rhythm.

Slowly, a shy little twig sprouted from the moss patch, raising towards the green light shed by the six staffs above. Soon, another one papered, than a third, fourth and fifth.. They sprouted leaves, and grew higher, almost two elbows in length. The ritual continued for some time, the vines slowly growing and widening, a leaf sprouting hear, a bud - there.

Fafret had never been happier, and the sweet music and song made his heart light and free of care. The patch of moss widened, the air became colder and more humid, and the smell of fresh, damp soil filled the air.

"Whats this - foul witches and worshipers of the Trickster! FALL TO MINE HAMMER!" The shout came from the entrance - two Hammertes had discovered them. The steel clad men rushed forward, their bared hammers demanding blood and flesh - Fafret stopped dancing, along with the other three men, and drew his bow, his fingers trembling when they released an arrow. The flint headed stick could not pierce the thick mail of the first Hammerite, and if it were not for one of the others intercepting him, he would have broken Fafret's head like a ripe watermelon.

"Comes manfools! Here bes your grave!" Jubrek, one of the older and more experienced warriors, attacked with his staff, striking at the ankle of the other Hammer, bringing him down flat on his back. The first one, however, managed to strike at his opponent and broke his ribs with a hideous crack, sending him flying to the side. "AHAA! SWIFT JUSTICE UPON THEE VILLAIN!" His triumphant voice enraged Fafret, and the young pagan threw himself at the manfool, bare handed and with a mad glow in his eyes.

"Come then, lay thine self upon my anvil!" The Hammerite was strong, muscular and bearded. Before him, the soft cheeked pagan lad seemed like a child.

The blow came hard and faster than Fafret would have expected - pain burst forth in his mind like an explosion, as he felt his shoulder crack beneath the weight of the warhammer. As the lad fell down, he could see Celia and the other shamans still performing the ritual with zeal and determination.

The gentle twigs that had sprouted from the ground, now resembled a healthy tree, wrapped with vines and flowers, and two more extended downwards, almost like arms. "Woodsie lord helpers us, we does your will. Helpers us agains them manfools!" Fafret prayed with fervor, even if he was too young to have know the Woodsie Lord himself.

The battle still raged, Jubrek and the others now hard pressed against the Hammers - four more wretched tin men had made their way to the cathedral, drawn by the commotion. Much to Fafret's horror, a Hammerite priest was among them, flinging fiery hammer bolts at the pagan warriors, who fell, one by one, against the overwhelming odds.

Every breath gave Fafret a sharp pain, and his left hand was completely useless. Tears rolled down the lad's face, desperation overwhelming him as he saw a large Hammerite swing at one of the shamans, bursting her skull in an explosion of blood, brain and bone. "Noooo! - his voice was weak and gagged with tears, as he saw a second Hammer make his way towards Celia. - You runs Celia, runs now!" As the heavy steel head of the warhammer swung down in a wide ark, Fafret could not turn his eyes away. It was then, he realized he loved his shaman.

"BEGONE MANFOOL!" - A voice strong and melodious erupted, as a hand made of vine and twig burst forth and knocked the Hammerite warrior several feet back, causing him to miss his strike on Celia. On the patch of moss, stood a beautiful female, six feet tall and made of all manner of plants and forest things. She was beutiful beyond words, and Fafret did not know weather to laugh or cry. It was Viktoria, just as he remembered her from his childhood. Viktoria had returned.

(disclaimer, English is not my native language)

[VIKTORIA]

^
@ Myth: This is excellent writing! :cool:
To add that English is not your first language, I bow to your talent. :worship:

***

OK, but in that case, while a related word, it's not where we got "Villain" from.
Absolutely right. :thumb:

The whole "bad guy" angle is attached to the serfs, not the land. The pejorative-ization of "villain" wasn't a denigration of nature or anti-pagan sentiment, but instead an expression of class conflict and distrust of the unwashed masses. (With a healthy helping of "The amount of wealth you have is indicative of your virtue" assumptions.)

Correct again. No disagreement with this. :)

[Myth]

This thread inspired me to write something on the go :) Still, if Viktoria should return that's the way i imagine it happening. Sounds plausible, yes?

[Ishikawa]

Okay i would like Victoria back as much as the next guy. She simply was one of the best characters ever. Hmm, imagine her being back for a while but also being scared of Garretts reaction to it (think Spike in Angel Season 5). Well, i for one would like a good surprise like that.

[Teasza]

I liked her too. But I think the depth of her sacrifice (and how she was killed) prevents this from being viable.
I absolutely adore Viktoria, but this is my sticking point. What was so affecting about the Sabotage At Soulforge scene was that she and Garrett finally reconciled - got even, if you will. After all the animosity between them in Dark Project and the earlier stages of Metal Age, it was fascinating to see their relationship growing to a point where Viktoria sacrifices herself for him and the City, and Garrett seems genuinely upset about it. To me, bringing her back cheapens her sacrifice.

That doesn't mean she can't still feature in a Thief plotline, though. Flashbacks, letters, cutscenes... oh, and if Thief:4 turns out to be a prequel, you don't need to worry about her being dead at all ;)

[BoldEnglishman]

Viktoria, thou arguments are impressive. I came into this thread thinking "nah, she's gone", however as you have said not even weedkiller can 100% annihilate that which it is designed to destroy.

I think there is every bit of possibility that Victoria may return. However, I must say that if Victoria returns... so must the Trickster. He was by far my most favourite character in all of the Thief games. I am a sucker for those who demonstrate awesome power, and demonstrate he did! Furthermore, some people believe Constantine was merely 'possessed' by the spirit of the Trickster. This would suggest that while his physical avatar was defeated, his spirit lingers on (like Sargeras in the Warcraft universe). Yet another theory is that the Hammerites defeated the Trickster in previous times, yet he returned for the Dark Project - so if he returned once before, he may as well return again.

Now, on with the speculation! One thing I have always wondered, is... was the Trickster really a god? The beauty of the Thief universe is that the player can interpret events in a number of ways. The main issue at hand is that the word "god" is quite subjective - how does one define a god? There is no surefire checklist that you can just go through to see if something is divine or not, and even if there was, I don't believe the Trickster would meet all of these criteria.

1. Both the Hammerites and the Mechanists worship "The Master Builder", while the Pagans worship the Trickster. However, as is even stated in the 10 commandments, it is possible to worship something which is not divine in nature (so-called 'false idols'). You can worship basically anything you want - so long as the belief and the faith in this object of worship exists. It doesn't have to be divine... so... the Master Builder and the Trickster are not instantly considered "divine" simply because people worship them.

2. Even if the Master Builder was a divine god, we never ever see him or hear of him intervening in the life of the City at all - not even the Keepers mention him. However, we encounter the Trickster in the flesh (obviously), and the Keepers have several records of him (for example, when entering the Keeper Compound in the Old Quarter, the Keepers mention that "were the Trickster not opposed, he would bring destruction upon the entire City"). Clearly then, the Master Builder and the Trickster are not on the same level - the Master Builder might be a god, but this does not immediately mean that the Trickster is. While Garrett may call the Trickster a god... the Keepers (you know, those guys who are supposed to know everything) never refer to the Trickster as a god.

3. When skulking around Constantine's mansion, he seems to have quite a few books in his possession - books on magic and nature. Why would a god have any need for such useless objects? Surely, if the natural elements of the world are anchored to his presence, he would not need a book to tell him this or that.

4. Also, a god would not have to rely on artifacts to accomplish that what he wants. Surely a god is omnipotent - if the Trickster were a god, could he not just open up a portal to 'that other realm beyond the Maw' without the aid of the Eye? He is dependant on the Eye to finish the ritual - I didn't think a god needed to be dependant on anything.

5. Even though this is just my opinion, it is my belief that it is quite possible the Trickster was human. It is never stated anywhere that he isn't or wasn't. It is possible that the Trickster was simply a human mage who had acquired so much power that he practically was immortal. There are plenty of other fictional stories where mages have used magic to ascend to unfathomable heights, and while there is no evidence of gods existing in the Thief universe, there is heaps of evidence - even evidence the player encounters - of magic existing. Going back to definitions, magic is so loosely defined, that magic can basically do anything. The Trickster can shape shift, extend his own age (or become totally immortal), teleport, shape mountains, create deadly portals... all with the aid of magic. Humans wield magic in Thief as well - the Hand Brotherhood, Mechanist/Hammerite/Pagan priests, Keepers... so why not Constantine?

Now going into even further speculation, it is possible that the post of "the Trickster" existed before Constantine did. Just as Karras, towards the end of the Metal Age, started confusing himself with the Builder (almost declaring himself to be the physical manifestion of the Builder), so it is also possible that a human can usurp the position of the Trickster - declaring himself to be as such. If Constantine was so powerful to usurp this position, the frail minds of the Pagans are not going to deny him this position, and really believe that the Trickster has come into being. A good reference here is the series/movie Stargate... where countless billions of people are lulled into worshipping so-called 'gods' who are really just aliens with superior technology. Replace technology with magical powers, and Constantine can fit right in.

All of this can apply to Victoria as well - she might be human as well.

[Smooogy]

Unfortunately it causes problems in a storyline when you kill an important character and then have them return. It depletes their charisma because you're always thinking in the back of your head - well, if he/she dies again, they'll just find a way to defeat death again

[Stath MIA]

It would be awesome to see Viki come back but, nonetheless, it just isn't very plausible. I normally role my eyes when people get miraculously resurrected and Smooogy is right, it makes the character weaker at the core.

[esme]

but who would moderate the forum

;)

[Smooogy]

but who would moderate the forum

;)

Oh our dear Viktoria will always be here for us ;)

Why not have a Viktoria clone or daughter? I mentioned on a thread earlier that she could have left an important seed behind before she attempted her suicide mission at soulforge. I would buy that without too much resistance.

[Dominus]

here's a modern Viktoria:
http://ps3.ign.com/dor/objects/14273490/batman-arkham-asylum/videos/batman_trl_freeflow_51509.html

[kabatta]

What if the Trickster needed the book, the artefact, etcetera because the form encountered in the game was merely an incarnation of his. Same for Viktoria. From what I know incarnations are weaker than the original, and relatively distinct. I would find feasable a return by a possesion.

[jtr7]

I'm not sure what kind of Dryad/Wood Nymph Viki really is in the devs' minds, but if she's capable of creating seedlings that would be clones of herself, lacking her experiences and long-time relationship with Constantine, then we could see another character like her, but she shouldn't be Viktoria, just a clone with a different perspective on things. Dyan and Larkspur could be tending to the newly sprouted Viki-clone. Sounds cheesy, don't it?

[Hamadriyad]

I don't want any resurrection. She died. Rest in peace.

[huzi73]

Viktoria, thou arguments are impressive. I came into this thread thinking "nah, she's gone", however as you have said not even weedkiller can 100% annihilate that which it is designed to destroy.

I think there is every bit of possibility that Victoria may return. However, I must say that if Victoria returns... so must the Trickster. He was by far my most favourite character in all of the Thief games. I am a sucker for those who demonstrate awesome power, and demonstrate he did! Furthermore, some people believe Constantine was merely 'possessed' by the spirit of the Trickster. This would suggest that while his physical avatar was defeated, his spirit lingers on (like Sargeras in the Warcraft universe). Yet another theory is that the Hammerites defeated the Trickster in previous times, yet he returned for the Dark Project - so if he returned once before, he may as well return again.

Now, on with the speculation! One thing I have always wondered, is... was the Trickster really a god? The beauty of the Thief universe is that the player can interpret events in a number of ways. The main issue at hand is that the word "god" is quite subjective - how does one define a god? There is no surefire checklist that you can just go through to see if something is divine or not, and even if there was, I don't believe the Trickster would meet all of these criteria.

1. Both the Hammerites and the Mechanists worship "The Master Builder", while the Pagans worship the Trickster. However, as is even stated in the 10 commandments, it is possible to worship something which is not divine in nature (so-called 'false idols'). You can worship basically anything you want - so long as the belief and the faith in this object of worship exists. It doesn't have to be divine... so... the Master Builder and the Trickster are not instantly considered "divine" simply because people worship them.

2. Even if the Master Builder was a divine god, we never ever see him or hear of him intervening in the life of the City at all - not even the Keepers mention him. However, we encounter the Trickster in the flesh (obviously), and the Keepers have several records of him (for example, when entering the Keeper Compound in the Old Quarter, the Keepers mention that "were the Trickster not opposed, he would bring destruction upon the entire City"). Clearly then, the Master Builder and the Trickster are not on the same level - the Master Builder might be a god, but this does not immediately mean that the Trickster is. While Garrett may call the Trickster a god... the Keepers (you know, those guys who are supposed to know everything) never refer to the Trickster as a god.

3. When skulking around Constantine's mansion, he seems to have quite a few books in his possession - books on magic and nature. Why would a god have any need for such useless objects? Surely, if the natural elements of the world are anchored to his presence, he would not need a book to tell him this or that.

4. Also, a god would not have to rely on artifacts to accomplish that what he wants. Surely a god is omnipotent - if the Trickster were a god, could he not just open up a portal to 'that other realm beyond the Maw' without the aid of the Eye? He is dependant on the Eye to finish the ritual - I didn't think a god needed to be dependant on anything.

5. Even though this is just my opinion, it is my belief that it is quite possible the Trickster was human. It is never stated anywhere that he isn't or wasn't. It is possible that the Trickster was simply a human mage who had acquired so much power that he practically was immortal. There are plenty of other fictional stories where mages have used magic to ascend to unfathomable heights, and while there is no evidence of gods existing in the Thief universe, there is heaps of evidence - even evidence the player encounters - of magic existing. Going back to definitions, magic is so loosely defined, that magic can basically do anything. The Trickster can shape shift, extend his own age (or become totally immortal), teleport, shape mountains, create deadly portals... all with the aid of magic. Humans wield magic in Thief as well - the Hand Brotherhood, Mechanist/Hammerite/Pagan priests, Keepers... so why not Constantine?

Now going into even further speculation, it is possible that the post of "the Trickster" existed before Constantine did. Just as Karras, towards the end of the Metal Age, started confusing himself with the Builder (almost declaring himself to be the physical manifestion of the Builder), so it is also possible that a human can usurp the position of the Trickster - declaring himself to be as such. If Constantine was so powerful to usurp this position, the frail minds of the Pagans are not going to deny him this position, and really believe that the Trickster has come into being. A good reference here is the series/movie Stargate... where countless billions of people are lulled into worshipping so-called 'gods' who are really just aliens with superior technology. Replace technology with magical powers, and Constantine can fit right in.

All of this can apply to Victoria as well - she might be human as well.

Good point(s).Mythos, write a book and I will buy it!I cant wait for her to return, 10 bucks says she does!

[kaekaelyn]

Somehow, I find a return of the Trickster much more plausible than a return of Viktoria, but I'll have to finish re-playing through TDP and TMA before I return with some storyline ideas :)

[Aristofiles]

I dont think the builder or the tricksters are gods at all. I think the builder is a saint and the trickster was a powerfull demon (one of many in the pagan mythology). Thay are both worshiped as gods though by thier followers (pagans and hammers)

[Acorn]

*
I don't think Victoria should return, she was pretty dead.

The pagans should get some new power beings and leaders. What about a woodsie council? They should also move back to the woodland villages.

They would have shamen chiefs and some representatives from the wilderness spirits. A couple new beings. Some Elf Lords.
How about a water nymph?
An ape beast could be one of the council chiefs. Imagine the dialogue there... :D

[jtr7]

We still have Dyan & Larkspur, and I still want to see what Dyan's staff could do. There's a reason Viktoria put them in charge.

[Hypevosa]

Well the trickster could be as much a god as the norse gods... in that he isn't omnipotent or imortal, just special. Even the greek gods weren't omnipotent, and even their immortality could be compormised by a little hein's blood.

[TheEye]

she took Garret's eye... she is in a better place now -HELL! let her stay there!:naughty:

[Hamadriyad]

she took Garret's eye... she is in a better place now -HELL! let her stay there!:naughty:

Yes indeed.

[Flashart]

Larkspur is mentioned as violent and unstable. Maybe Dyan enlists Garrett's help in some kind of resurrection, or just a straight forward power struggle.

[jtr7]

What does Larkspur say to himself?:

m15v08e: "Bes my place to stand by Dyan...protecting her...obeying her. It bes was the last wishing of Viktoria before she bes was deaded by the Hammers...."

His information could be suspect. And no, it's not a mistake to call Mechanists "Hammers" when they are kin, and Viktoria may have still been alive in the form of all that life she spread around in Soulforge, until the Mechanist leader's rust gas destroyed her completely.

[Mistress Vixen]

I would like to see her return in Thief 4 as I felt she was a much underutilised character in the previous games

[Hamadriyad]

I don't want to see any dead character. Dead should stay dead. Rest in peace.

[negative_len]

Unless it's a prequel, in which case, green light ahead. Though in a shielded or cleverly constructed way, so as to fit in storyline-wise with TDP. Remember, at the start of TDP Garrett and Victoria could have known each other previously, it's not stated. Watch the movie.

My opinion? If Thiaf is a prequel, Victoria should be in it.

[kabatta]

Hah! Hah ha ha ha. Diane not good enough for you people?

[hellwalker]

mysterious sexy women will be our undoing.

[negative_len]

Hah! Hah ha ha ha. Diane not good enough for you people?

Who?

[Hamadriyad]

Dyan, also known as the Priestess of Wood or the Woodsie Priestess, was a pagan priestess and leader of the Order of the Vine after the death of Viktoria.

[negative_len]

Oh, Dyan, right. Dyan I get.

You know, one thing that TDS was lacking in majorly was main faction characters. Even Inspector Drept was only mentioned once or twice and made one very brief storyline appearance. Dyan and Larkspur were practically the only notable Pagans, and I don't even remember if you met them in the flesh or not. Certainly, they didn't do anything very interesting. They may not even have had any unique lines. Thief 4 has got to remedy that.

[jtr7]

Drept and Dyan & Larkspur had major appearances and you met them all, especially if you played on higher difficulties and played slowly enough, with the volume loud enough to hear the characters talking and naming names. The problem was how easy it was to glide by most of it.


Hamadriyad: "Order of the Vine" is mentioned once by Ramirez about Viktoria whom he had no clue about who she was, even thinking she might want to be a Warden. "Order of the Vine" is never used again, especially by the pagans, who are about chaos, not order. "Order of the Vine" contradicts too much and would work best as a cover for Viktoria's business. For all we know, "Order of the Vine" could be a grape-growers' society, a vineyard owners' club.

[kabatta]

My appologies. I must be a terrible taffer for gettin wrong Dyan's name.

[jtr7]

A horrible example of a taffer you are!


The heathen hath learned his lesson. :D



We all got it wrong before TDS came out.

[Hamadriyad]

Actually I quoted from thief-wiki. Heh heh. :D (for Dyan post)
But thanks. I didn't know that. :)

[jtr7]

Yes. I'm growing distant form the Wiki as well. I just give them compiled data and they often don't even refer to their own wiki for research.

I've seen people incorrectly call the Keepers, "The Order of the Key," missing the point, but inspired by all their keys and keyhole symbolism. Balance? What's that? :p

[Hamadriyad]

Ahh, first keepers' compound, now thief-wiki. I wonder don't we have a site that we can completely trust?

[kabatta]

Good one. To confuze doors leading to wisdom and hidden secrets with a plain old key. > : )

[PlumsieTaker]

She went out with such a bang in TMA, I don't think bringing her back would work at all.

Although It could be possible in cameo flashback for a cutscene/dialogue mention/daughter? Albeit not a major role like TDP/TMA.

[vowdy]

There's plenty of other characters which they can implement. No need to use old ones (except for Garrett then..)

[Tutterbug]

There's plenty of other characters which they can implement. No need to use old ones (except for Garrett then..)

well spoken pal. exactly what I was thinking - don't get up cheesy highway shall we?

[Burrick]

I never played the first Thief, so I would like to meet Viktoria "again", since for me it is a new character I wouldn't have got to big a prob with her reappearance.

[Tutterbug]

oh plz won't you shut up? lets just break the whole canon, cause you didn't play all of the games. you didn't play TDP? What's your qualification to post in this thread then? Read and learn before posting - you don't got whats Thief about until you fully experienced it!

You don't just break the trilogy's storyline just cause some haven't played all of its parts!

[Burrick]

ok,ok cool down - no need to become aggressive! it was no serious request I made, I just wanted to state "for me, she is a new character".

[Tutterbug]

your request wasn't serious, no it rather seemed silly. and no I'm not cooling down it sets me up when people don't even respect the basics. just don't provide us with ur clumsy little remarks -ok?

my concern is, that the people get the wrong idea on what Thief is and was, noobs to the series like you influence other noobs with your uncontrolled, badly reasoned thoughtz ya are posting in here. this wents all the wrong way! plz don't spoil the truth with your wrong perspective on Thief! You are ruining the game and its reputation - you could even have a bad influence on the development of Thief 4.

I'm set up man, really set up.

[jtr7]

I never played the first Thief, so I would like to meet Viktoria "again", since for me it is a new character I wouldn't have got to big a prob with her reappearance.

Heh heh. Of course, I would SERIOUSLY recommend playing the first games. If this is impossible under your computing circumstances, I suggest learning the story and watching the games' movies. That's got much more value than resurrecting her in Thief 4. Without Dan Thron's paintings and animation, and without Terri Brosius's voice-work, a new Viktoria wouldn't cut it, especially if she's animated with CGI.

[Nate]

I seriously doubt that the devs would bring back dead characters like that.

[jtr7]

I could accept the appearance of new forest guardians, as in more from the pantheon (if there was intended to be such), and more about how Dyan and Larkspur fill any void left by beings like Constantine and Viktoria. I do find it odd that the deaths of those powerful leaders was taken in stride. Either it's their acceptance of death as part of life, as well as fate, that they don't seem devastated by it, nor do they show signs of a loss of part of the fabric of their existence.

Here's a possibility: When it comes to mankind, death feeds the plants, the plants feed the living. How might Con's or Viki's deaths play into the cycle beyond the surface--as in, beyond Viki's sacrifice allowing lief to continue. Is their room for more ways? It's been brought up before that both Con and Viki can create living organisms, so what prevents them from leaving progeny of a sort--that may not even resemble themselves in appearance or ability--especially as a contingency. They had prophecy and visions, too. Corruption kept the factions blind to their interpretation.

[Burrick]

Yes I want Viktoria to appear again.:thumb::thumb: Because it is my opinion!

[jtr7]

Well then, logically you shouldn't keep your wishlist so narrowed down. Wish for anything you want! I mean..."opinions", not "wishes", sorry.


In my opinion I don't want to work for a paycheck anymore, and think that Princess Leia shouldn't be Luke's sister, but...





And never EVER forget: You are allowed your opinion, but so are others. You are allowed to disagree, but so are others. Opinions are not free from consequences, and are not free from others emotional reactions. No double-standards, and know what you are talking about, and stick to your guns. Be prepared as well as prepared to step away.

[Watcheratthegatesofdusk]

Of course Victoria could come back as she is a is a Nymph/wood spirit. Remember the cut scene in thief 2 when Garrett is following a trail of blood though the forest and Victoria materialises from the earth in from of him? There is this glowing light that her physical forms around, which I guess represents her spirit. I doubt the rust gas would affect her spirit in any way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnmieVnER34

One way to bring her back is to perhaps present an optional storyline where Garrett performs a demanding summoning ceremony with the pagans using that "holy tree" in the docks we saw in T3 (or several ones/holy plants along with several other artefacts).

[kabatta]

Viktoria cannoth come back because the rust gas consumed her mater, soul, essence. I would greedely like to see her again, but it would ruin her image . Better leave that for the fan missions.
Burrick: we want you to play all thief games.

[jtr7]

The pagans say she's gone, deaded, and the Keepers say she's dead. If we see another wood nymph, it won't be Viktoria, but a new being. Imagine everyone's surprise that their prophecies were correct about everything but that.

[VIKTORIA]

oh plz won't you shut up? lets just break the whole canon, cause you didn't play all of the games. you didn't play TDP? What's your qualification to post in this thread then? Read and learn before posting - you don't got whats Thief about until you fully experienced it!

You don't just break the trilogy's storyline just cause some haven't played all of its parts!

Just because someone has not played the original two games, does not mean you are able to tell them to shut up, or that they are somehow not qualified to post in this (or any other) thread. May I remind you that this is a public discussion forum and all are welcome. Please check your private message box, thank you.

[Hamadriyad]

"Yayy, Viktoria is return."
"But how?"
"That's not important man, this is a fantasy game." :mad2:

You want her return because you like her. I like her too and I was upset when she DIED. But she died because story doesn't need her anymore. Even Garrett can be sacrificed If the Thief universe needs it. You should think what's better for the story and what's not. Bring back Viktoria: this is not. This is just a greedy wish of Viktoria lovers.

[FriendlyStranger]

I think especially since Viktoria is a magical creature there is no telling, if she can return or not. Just think of the mythological creature Phoenix which dies and rises again of its ashes. Such a property could also be thought up for Viktoria - her mortal hull destroyed, but able to regrow in the sacred wood sanctuary of the pagans.

You have to make the difference between what you want to see in T4 and between what is possible. Not everything you don't like is impossible and not everything other people like is impossible.

I would prefer the return of good old characters instead of a bad one like Gamall.

And yes I also think the return of the Trickster is even more likely, since there is no telling if he is dead or not. And I don't think a god is likely to die just because someone drops of a forged Talisman into a ceremony. Maybe his spirit is trapped within The Eye now, who knows.

[Hamadriyad]

You have to make the difference between what you want to see in T4 and between what is possible. Not everything you don't like is impossible and not everything other people like is impossible.


I couldn't agree more.

Viktoria is a magical creature, yes. But If there is a possibility of her return, we would have a clue about that. But I don't remembr such a clue, I remember pagans mentioned about her as dead.
By the way, I don't think Gamall was a bad one.

[Watcheratthegatesofdusk]

Well what the rust gas did was consume all organic matter, thus destroying her physical body, thus physically killing her. However, the Thief universe is a spiritual one which means that death does not constitute the end of existence. What I was suggesting was that while Victoria truly is dead (with her link to the physical world destroyed ) there might be another way for her to anchor her spirit in the physical world (unless it is impossible or spirits to "return from the beyond" if once "crossed over".)

[Watcheratthegatesofdusk]

I couldn't agree more.

Viktoria is a magical creature, yes. But If there is a possibility of her return, we would have a clue about that. But I don't remembr such a clue, I remember pagans mentioned about her as dead.
By the way, I don't think Gamall was a bad one.

The tree in the pagan area of the docks could be such a clue.

[the_steved]

Just because someone has not played the original two games, does not mean you are able to tell them to shut up, or that they are somehow not qualified to post in this (or any other) thread. May I remind you that this is a public discussion forum and all are welcome. Please check your private message box, thank you.

Personnally I think that like in everything there is a way to tell something to someone. Maybe he wasn't polite in the way he said it but he still does have a point. Everybody here is posting hoping for Eidos not to screw this up and to most thief fan screwing Thief 4 means another TDS. I too think that staff from Eidos could get the wrong idea and take for granted that TDS did well in terms of sales and just wind up making a similar experience... let's face it there will never be a game like the two first games not because they don't want to do it... they just can't they don't have the leadership nor the vision that looking glass had... no matter whom from the original team you put... some games are made classic by their appearance in time... simply that... Mario 64 is still better than Mario Galaxy on so many levels it's mind bugging...

[Hamadriyad]

The tree in the pagan area of the docks could be such a clue.

I don't think so. When I said clue, I meant some conversations, written metarials etc. It was just a tree. Yes it was important for pagans but every organic metarial is important for them.

[VIKTORIA]

Personnally I think that like in everything there is a way to tell something to someone. Maybe he wasn't polite in the way he said it but he still does have a point.

Yes, I agree that he has a point but, as you confirm, there is a better way to express ourselves without the need to be rude. Once one begins to attack people on a personal level (rather than their 'ideas/suggestions'), the original message we try to convey loses focus and becomes lost and wasted. This is the point of my post - to guide and remind all taffers here to remain civil to each other and open-minded. This is the only way to retain good, constructive discussion. :)

[jtr7]

Hamadriyad: None of the good in Gamall mattered because she was murderous and skin-stealing 'til the end. Her actions destroyed the Order. She lost her chance for redemption by not stopping 'til it was over for her. She clearly had no clue how to prevent or undo the Unwritten times without the Sentients. Since that's over, she cannot give the ex-Keepers a clue to undo the Third Dark Age. Like Gollum, the good inside didn't save his soul, but with Gamall the good inside didn't save lives even as Gollum did. As much as she was addicted to the controlling Glyphs, she was just plain rotten, and all the good meant nothing.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk: Since the Pagans believe Viki is dead, they wouldn't know if the Sapling came from her if she was alive. The overseas shipment is interesting in itself, but the possibility that Viki or another forest guardian are responsible for it is interesting too. The plant, however, was brought in to give the Shaman more power to raise the dead in the Catacombs, and possibly to power the Shamans during the civil war with the Hammers. There are three mentions of an overseas route to other parts of The City, with this one relating to the Pagans. I wonder if they paid for the shipment, too. And I wonder why Albert meant so much to the Pagans for them to fight the Hammerites over his body?

[negative_len]

No offense to anyone here, but I think there is a major problem with asking existing fans with what the future storyline of a series should be since they tend to focus on nitty-gritty details that were not intended to have major future impact instead of what would be a good story for the new game. This is just a generalization but I think it's very true.

If it works and it's going to make a good storyline and it doesn't clash with what's gone on before, consider doing it! I'm not talking about the bringing back to life, which might work or might not work, or even Victoria in general, I'm talking about various details people mention that weren't meant to have future repercussions, but, if taken gospel, might end up doing so inadvertently.

Personally, I like the clone/descendant thing, as it actually makes sense and has some great dialogue and storyline possibilities. The new Victoria would be aware of her previous self's interactions with Garrett but wouldn't actually have experienced them herself. I can see that working well. If it's a prequel or possibly even in between the first two games, well, that's something else.

[jtr7]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying not to try and relive specific characters we like from the past in the new game that had their time?

This is exactly what I am trying to do: "...and it doesn't clash with what's gone on before, consider doing it!"

Could you be more specific? :)

[Hamadriyad]

jtr7, you misunderstood me but I am sorry, this is totally my mistake. I answered Friendly. He said:

"I would prefer the return of good old characters instead of a bad one like Gamall"
If I didn't misunderstand him, he meant Gamall is non-depth, badly represented character. When I said she wasn't bad I meant she has depth as previous antagonists. :)

Sorry for confusion. But thanks for information about Gamall. It helped me to understand Gamall.

[jtr7]

Ah! Hahaha! Here we go again! Haha! :flowers::flowers::flowers: Sorry!


The depth of her story is not told directly, but rather obliquely in other sayings that aren't directly about her. The powerful and self-altering Glyphs are tempting, addicting, and a balanced Keeper controls the Glyphs, but an imbalanced Keeper can be controlled by them. So there are the makings of a tragedy, there.

[Hamadriyad]

No problem, really.

You are right. Glyphs were just like the one ring for Keepers. And for Gamall (Gollum) of course. :)
(Wow, there are lot of similarity. Long life, shape distortion, soul distortion, temptation of power... :D )

[Watcheratthegatesofdusk]

Hamadriyad: None of the good in Gamall mattered because she was murderous and skin-stealing 'til the end. Her actions destroyed the Order. She lost her chance for redemption by not stopping 'til it was over for her. She clearly had no clue how to prevent or undo the Unwritten times without the Sentients. Since that's over, she cannot give the ex-Keepers a clue to undo the Third Dark Age. Like Gollum, the good inside didn't save his soul, but with Gamall the good inside didn't save lives even as Gollum did. As much as she was addicted to the controlling Glyphs, she was just plain rotten, and all the good meant nothing.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk: Since the Pagans believe Viki is dead, they wouldn't know if the Sapling came from her if she was alive. The overseas shipment is interesting in itself, but the possibility that Viki or another forest guardian are responsible for it is interesting too. The plant, however, was brought in to give the Shaman more power to raise the dead in the Catacombs, and possibly to power the Shamans during the civil war with the Hammers. There are three mentions of an overseas route to other parts of The City, with this one relating to the Pagans. I wonder if they paid for the shipment, too. And I wonder why Albert meant so much to the Pagans for them to fight the Hammerites over his body?

I am not disputing the fact that she is dead, what I am pointing out is that being dead does not exclude any character from making an appearance or returning to the game.
Brother Murus and Gamal had for example been dead for quite some time, and were still able to communicate with G. If V can not return physically, one could always let her make an appearance in a "true dream" warning/preparing G for some future trail or a "run Luke, run!- type moment".

[VIKTORIA]

I have had to delete some pointless/rude posts above.

Friendlystranger, if you believe someone is posting in here under multiple accounts please PM details and link me. No need to make accusations in public, you could be completely wrong.
Herr_Garrett, it might help the situation by not becoming involved in disagreements that did not originally involve you. It just flames - as is evident from the response you received.
Tutterbug, please learn to express yourself better otherwise I'm going to have to get serious with the infraction tool - and I don't wish to have to go down that road because I want my taffers to get along.

This is a polite request and I hope you all take note as I do not intend to repeat myself. No more taffin' around in here now, otherwise you guys know how I change when my leaves get ruffled. ;)

[Flashart]

It's a difficult choice, resurrecting only well thought out characters means less new good characters. I like the relationship between Garrett and Viktoria (I don't mean romantic, before anyone's blood pressure raises), so maybe a "guest appearence" as a vision or weakened entity might be the best option.
I like toying with the notion that Viktoria returns in some way to plead for Garrett's help to topple Larkspur (who we know is nuts *pun*) and help Dyan restore balance within the Pagans. This offers the "War" subplot with the Hammers, and by implication threatening the City.

[jtr7]

I am not disputing the fact that she is dead, what I am pointing out is that being dead does not exclude any character from making an appearance or returning to the game.
Brother Murus and Gamal had for example been dead for quite some time, and were still able to communicate with G. If V can not return physically, one could always let her make an appearance in a "true dream" warning/preparing G for some future trail or a "run Luke, run!- type moment".

I understand, however, I don't go there because no one who ever appeared like that died by choice on a suicide mission to save the world, but by having unjust death come at them, so she would be doing something new. Lauryl and Murus died under awful circumstances. The concept's not unwelcome, it just seems excuse-making to get more of her in, and I'd rather the writing was as strong as possible. If the voice-actor wasn't a good match, they'd have to get Terri Brosius back in, heh heh. :p




Personnally I think that like in everything there is a way to tell something to someone. Maybe he wasn't polite in the way he said it but he still does have a point. Everybody here is posting hoping for Eidos not to screw this up and to most thief fan screwing Thief 4 means another TDS. I too think that staff from Eidos could get the wrong idea and take for granted that TDS did well in terms of sales and just wind up making a similar experience... let's face it there will never be a game like the two first games not because they don't want to do it... they just can't they don't have the leadership nor the vision that looking glass had... no matter whom from the original team you put... some games are made classic by their appearance in time... simply that...

I agree 100%.

[tarhiel]

I always saw Victoria as some kind of nymph (you doesn´t have to believe her that she was so powerful, Trickster was boasting too- they are both death now. Never was fully explained who is she or Tirckster, who was whorshipped as god. He might be devil or some form of faun, we would never known for sure), but she IS dead. That whole thing with speculaitng she might survive - oh yeah, and Trickster is not dead too. He is just pretending, just like fatker Carras. They all will pop up on us in Thef 4! They all get mutilated, join thier forces in process of reawakenig, and, behold, now there is Victrikstarrass!!! Buhahaha!

*REALLY big sarcasm!!!*

[tarhiel]

Please, no returing of Victoria,Trickster, Karras, Enforcers, etc... it is bad idea, whatosoever I liked this character. I´m sure EM is able to come up with new story and characters.

[ToMegaTherion]

I always saw Victoria as some kind of nymph (you doesn´t have to believe her that she was so powerful, Trickster was boasting too- they are both death now. Never was fully explained who is she or Tirckster, who was whorshipped as god. He might be devil or some form of faun, we would never known for sure), but she IS dead. That whole thing with speculaitng she might survive - oh yeah, and Trickster is not dead too. He is just pretending, just like fatker Carras. They all will pop up on us in Thef 4! They all get mutilated, join thier forces in process of reawakenig, and, behold, now there is Victrikstarrass!!! Buhahaha!

*REALLY big sarcasm!!!*

And they are interred into a giant mecha-burrick. With cannons. Epic.

[VIKTORIA]

Haha! :D

[vesemir]

Please, no returing of Victoria,Trickster, Karras, Enforcers, etc... it is bad idea, whatosoever I liked this character. I´m sure EM is able to come up with new story and characters.

I completely agree with this.
Lets see:
T1 was about pagans and they'r gone
T2 was about hammers (yes!) and they'r gone
T3 was about keepers and they'r gone too.
(by "gone" I mean they don't want to take over the world anymore or otherwise change it)

Bringing back any of this factions or their leaders in T4 will lead it to look like another (much improved though) mod. But we don't wanna play mods, do we?

[esme]

I play mods ;)

[Hamadriyad]

I completely agree with this.
Lets see:
T1 was about pagans and they'r gone
T2 was about hammers (yes!) and they'r gone
T3 was about keepers and they'r gone too.
(by "gone" I mean they don't want to take over the world anymore or otherwise change it)

Bringing back any of this factions or their leaders in T4 will lead it to look like another (much improved though) mod. But we don't wanna play mods, do we?

T2 was about the mechanists, not hammerites. (mechanists are different faction even though they are corrupted hammerites.)

[vesemir]

but you get the point, right? :)

[Hamadriyad]

Hehe, yes I got the point and I totally agree with you. :)

[darkmagicasorseer]

T2 was about the mechanists, not hammerites. (mechanists are different faction even though they are corrupted hammerites.)

There should be a new offshoot faction from the pagans (order of the vines) which could be the order of the beast where there will be lycanthropy werewolves and other beastly monsters. Viktoria will be there and asking help from Garrett again.

[Platinumoxicity]

There should be a new offshoot faction from the pagans (order of the vines) which could be the order of the beast where there will be lycanthropy werewolves and other beastly monsters. Viktoria will be there and asking help from Garrett again.

In which part of the timeline would the story take place then? It would have to be somewhere between T1 and T2.

[darkmagicasorseer]

In which part of the timeline would the story take place then? It would have to be somewhere between T1 and T2.

Hmm, i think it should be after TDS, because the Keepers have lost their glyphs powers that allows them to maintain balance in the world. Hence one of the faction may get overpowered and "spill over" into an offshoot faction, having another "mechanist" is redundancy. Therefore we should have a new offshoot faction from the Pagan. Where the first thief is about the Pagan and their plant themselves, how about we focused on their beast? Beast that can shape shift into humans and hide in plain sight could prove a dangerous adversary for Garrett. Plants and Beast are two very distinct elements of nature.

[darkmagicasorseer]

Please, no returing of Victoria,Trickster, Karras, Enforcers, etc... it is bad idea, whatosoever I liked this character. I´m sure EM is able to come up with new story and characters.

I like the enforcers, however they didn't hide in the shadow while hunting for Garrett which is disappointing. I think the enforcers should be Garrett with no "Don't Kill Anyone (TM)" objective.

[Cetus Amicus]

Opps, I'm a bit late to this thread. Sorry for interrupting the current discussion on time placement for the game.:eek:
As much as I liked Viktoria as a character I've got mixed feelings about her possible return in the next game. While it would be nice for her to return there is also the possibility that it would cheapen her sacrifice and alter the reverence given to her character. (The only immediate example that comes to mind is SEGA's character Shadow the Hedgehog.)
Furthermore I also like the idea of trying to find Garrett some new opponents rather than re-using old factions (as mentioned by tarhiel) ...however I'd be a bit too nostalgic to see the Pagans and the Hammers completely missing from the game; it would feel a bit empty.

[jtr7]

The City has been caught between the Hammers (who built most of The City), and the Pagans (who had their land destroyed by the Hammers to build The City) for centuries, so it does not make sense for them disappear. They are in a state of Balance at the end of TMA, wobbly, but Balanced. Even after TDS, they are still Balanced.

What does not need to return are dead characters, or characters using now non-existent Glyphs (including the Glyph-altered and Glyph-powered Enforcers).

[Psychomorph]

If she returns, she betta looks like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_EaV221bYaso/SgcnvTuf_vI/AAAAAAAABbo/eK3oUkXWlM8/s400/poison_ivy.jpg

:D

[esme]

men! :rolleyes: *sigh*

[VIKTORIA]

Haha! :D

A nice picture, but she's not... shall we say, 'dark' enough, imo. :p

[jtr7]

Viktoria should look like a beautiful woman, not a skank, a ho, or a fan of plastic surgery.

[GhostStealth]

I always thought about Viktoria having a child somewhere, daughter like a mother kind of thing or something, but nothing lasts forever, unless zombified in thief universe, perhaps a foolish idea :lol: but a child can look similar to its mother and be called for Viktoria, they are same sap after all, but I agree with it should be something beautiful, if such were to happen, a woodsie lady to arrive. :o

[Odyseeos]

If Viktoria can stretch herself into two football fields of vine and parthenogenize frog-eggs, I'd reckon she's not terribly predictable. Worse, I imagine she's natively fluent in Tricksterese.

[Platinumoxicity]

I always thought about Viktoria having a child somewhere, daughter like a mother kind of thing or something, but nothing lasts forever, unless zombified in thief universe, perhaps a foolish idea :lol: but a child can look similar to its mother and be called for Viktoria, they are same sap after all, but I agree with it should be something beautiful, if such were to happen, a woodsie lady to arrive. :o

Take that thought and apply it to a timeline where Viktoria never died. Imagine, would you still think anywhere close to this if she was still alive? Would it still be a good idea to have her and also a mini wood-nymph that serves no purpose in the story at all?

[VIKTORIA]

Viktoria should look like a beautiful woman, not a skank, a ho, or a fan of plastic surgery.

In other words, you wish her to be 'natural' and remain 'mysterious'? ;)