ARTISTIC DIRECTION: what about making the game look like animated concept art?

[Limesneeker]

Hi,

first of all: though the artistic style of all Thief games is great in my opinion,I have to admit that i liked the comic-touch of Thief 3 also.

So, imagine this....

>> http://img.neoseeker.com/v_concept_art.php?caid=5219


....as an actual in-game-shot, realized with the usuage of post-processing. filters etc....

In some way, Bioshock went this direction. Some levels in Bioshock even reminded me of modernized versions of the Thief2/Mechanist-style (for a reason of course: both use art-déco/industrial elements). So I´d think some sort of over-stylization wouldnt be wrong.

[Terr]

The problem is that few people really want to play a game that's that blurry for very long, and all the "brush-stroke" geometry is difficult to get unless you design all of your boxes and props etc. so that they truly are that way, geometrically. I'd direct your attention to Psychonauts, where organic angles were done simply because that's how everything is structured.

Probably the closest thing is to simply have heavy fog/dust everywhere, which is a bit like how TDS managed certain areas near windows, etc. It makes interior spaces look a bit more "watercolor".

[str8g8]

Its a nice idea, look at the latest prince of persia for another axample, in practice its hard to do well, plus as it happens I think that Thiefs semi industrial steampunk aesthetic is a natural fit for a realistic renderer. I just hope its dark and gloomy and grimy%

[DarthEnder]

The Thief series has always had a very specific art style. It's was very much Guillermo del Toro's(Pan's Labarynth/Hellboy 2) art style before anybody know what the Guillermo del Toro art style even was.

It's an awesome style, and seeing that style in a current gen engine would be amazing.

[simlan]

Of the first two games i absolutely loved the excerpts at the beginning of the missions followed by the story cinematic, in this i was highly disappointed in thief 3 when it wasn't done as such but i did enjoy the use of cinematic cut scenes used to tell the story. (which should continue).

[Prince_VLAD]

I liked the pics but I'd hate seeing Thief IV looking like ..."Prince of Persia", really...

[Abelo]

Although nothing has been said yet, Steambot Studio, the concept art team behind many Montreal games such as Ubisoft's are working in DX3 too, so I'm assuming they're into T4 and expecting some awesome artwork by "Barontieri" Doizon (one of the greatest concept artists in the world) and company to be released in the weeks to come, just to have us salivating a bit before actual screenshots. Similar to what they did with DX3. Give us a glimpse!

[Jilly The Taffer]

An interesting idea, but Thief is such an atmospheric game that we want the best possible graphics for it.

To really be sucked into the world of the City, we want crumbling brick walls, damp cobbled roads, bright steamed-up windows of taverns and dark, dusty Hammerite churches.

[huzi73]

Please no cell shaded gfx!

[vasanx]

Whoa! You guys actually want T4 to look like this?

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/42/thief3conceptartdndsq.th.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thief3conceptartdndsq.jpg)

With today's technology I'm expecting T4 to look something like this...

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9865/veurnestreetbyzardot.th.jpg (http://img40.imageshack.us/my.php?image=veurnestreetbyzardot.jpg)

Well, not exactly like that since that's a real street in Belgium. But you guys know what I mean.

You with me on this Jilly The Taffer?

I mean, if Fallout 3 can look like this...

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8463/fallout3200809261009272.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fallout3200809261009272.jpg)

...I'm pretty sure they can make realistic lookin environment these days.

Over-stylization in TDS was the reason why we hated that game so much. It made a mockery of TDP and TMA.

I mean, when you have arrow trails, you might as well put in speech bubbles too like the good old days of Batman & Robin.

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2021/batmanandrobinmagnetada.th.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/my.php?image=batmanandrobinmagnetada.jpg)

I know Thief is a game and blah blah but the point I'm tryin to make here is that when I played TDP and TMA back in the day, it didn't feel like I was playin a cartoon. It felt real.

Of course looking at TDP and TMA today, it feels very much cartoonish. Especially when you compare it to Fallout 3 and more importantly, Crysis.

If EM can pull this off, it would be mind blowing indeed. I would seriously :worship: them. I'll even put up a shrine.

And, I know that not everyone has a killer rig but that's why we have scalability. If EM doesn't pull a Crytek, T4 can be enjoyed by everyone, no matter how crappy/awesome your rig is.

[Ice1019]

I think stylization is awesome, I loved Psychonauts and the designs for Brutal Legend, and the style in Prince of Persia. For Thief? I'm not so sure.

Stealth games require a certain amount of realism, especially when it comes to contrast and color, in the interest of what will help the player identify hiding places. I'm not saying that they should make Thief 4 with the CryEngine, but I think too much stylization could possibly inhibit the gameplay, which is the number one key to making Thief 4 work.

[vasanx]

...Thief 4 with the CryEngine...

Sigh. One can dream.

I shouldn't be approving CryEngine after what Crytek did to us ATI people but damn that the engine is gorgeous!

I gotta say I'm a sucker for shiny graphics. I didn't buy a 300 dollar graphic card for nothin.

But gameplay should not be sacrificed in pursuit of aesthetics. I know this is beating a dead horse but I'll go through a stable of em if it gets the message across to EM.

[Jilly The Taffer]

I mean, if Fallout 3 can look like this...

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8463/fallout3200809261009272.th.jpg (http://img195.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fallout3200809261009272.jpg)

...I'm pretty sure they can make realistic lookin environment these days.

Indeed, we need the most realistic looking environment for this game.

Not a blurry, watercoloured world, which will no doubt make everything look as if Garrett has had too much ale :nut:

[vasanx]

....watercoloured world...

Argh! I was tryin to come with up a term to describe TDS' lame artistic direction. You totally nailed it.

I'm gonna borrow this for another post. :)

Thanks.

[ToMegaTherion]

I really like a stylised art direction. I guess since I already live in a decaying industrial conurbation I am not too fanatical about seeing a realistic simulation of one either :)

[van_HellSing]

vasanx & Jilly The Taffer: you are both insane.

[huzi73]

LOL,This

http://paulmader.blogspot.com/2009/04/first-screenshots.html

is what i'd love thi4f to look like

[VIKTORIA]

LOL,This

http://paulmader.blogspot.com/2009/04/first-screenshots.html

is what i'd love thi4f to look like

Holy Hammers! :eek:

I really like! :cool: :thumb:

[huzi73]

Sigh.... If only....

But time will tell,since the TR:U engine is quite new,it may be quite evolved by the time thi4f is out

[vasanx]

vasanx & Jilly The Taffer: you are both insane.

Thank you. We can't help it if we are insanely genius. :tongue2:

[Corvin25]

LOL,This

http://paulmader.blogspot.com/2009/04/first-screenshots.html

is what i'd love thi4f to look like

Whoa, HELLO!

I like that a GREAT deal. If he can make levels that PLAY as good as that looks, I'd definitely hire him. :)

[CurtX]

It would be a mistake to take this game in a new artistic direction. Refer to the new Prince of Persia. They focused too much on the artistry, and less on the core PoP gameplay. Needless to say, most PoP fans felt it was a step in the wrong direction for that game.

Thief IV doesn't need to be an experiment with graphics.

[Mikkowl]

I don't like much post processing if any that tries to change the look. 100% realism is what's to strive for, for that maximum immersion and eye candy.

[Stath MIA]

Looks awesome but it would get annoying in actual gameplay.

[ToMegaTherion]

Reality isn't very pretty, really. Some unreality is always nice in graphics.

[DarknessFalls]

No stylization, please. I dont like the thought of it for Thief.

[DarthEnder]

LOL,This

http://paulmader.blogspot.com/2009/04/first-screenshots.html

is what i'd love thi4f to look likeNeeds some steam pipes but DAMN that looks awesome.

[Platinumoxicity]

I have an idea. If there are full-motion ingame cutscenes, add a filter to the scene that makes the movements look like they are painted onto the movie on the fly. Then the scene would remind you of the briefing videos in T1 and T2. :) It would eat up resources quite a lot though.

[Yotun]

I will not be happy unless Thief 4 looks like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Sarlat-medieval-city-by-night-13.jpg
http://k53.pbase.com/o6/94/469394/1/72250644.wQVelz51.IMG_9604copy.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Sarlat-medieval-city-by-night-16.jpg

[vasanx]

I will not be happy unless Thief 4 looks like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Sarlat-medieval-city-by-night-13.jpg
http://k53.pbase.com/o6/94/469394/1/72250644.wQVelz51.IMG_9604copy.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Sarlat-medieval-city-by-night-16.jpg

Me too! :D

[kabatta]

http://paulmader.blogspot.com/2009/04/first-screenshots.html

is what i'd love thi4f to look like

This is a style i could use. All the "reality" style is a bunch of bull. Just pixel and ram demanding things. After all the games i played I still get in the spirit of the original thief. Reality is ugly. It is supposed to be a game. If I really would want to feel like a thief I would go and steal myself. Allso...it wouldn't work on my computer that should be in a museum by now. I woul be really sad. :(

[Master Taffer]

LOL,This

http://paulmader.blogspot.com/2009/04/first-screenshots.html

is what i'd love thi4f to look like

I'm not shock, this guy worked on Gears of War 1 & 2. Those games have some of the most detailed and sick looking environments I've ever seen.

[huzi73]

I personally still think UE3 is the sh1t. THI4F needs water, Bioshock, which used UE3,had the best looking water i've ever seen ingame, after the intro cutscene, i didnt move for 5 minutes, i still thought i was looking at the cutscene.Wow that fire on the water looked georgeous!

[Secondary]

those screens done in the unreal engine are fantastic and blend realism and style perfectly. thats definitly a look i would enjoy seeing in thief 4.


another thing i think is essential to the City though, is dynamic crowds, alot of people walking around, visiting market stalls, driving carriages down the broader streets. it would do to help the immersiveness of the game alot, and would add a new dimension to stealth.

as for making the game look like the cutscenes. thats perfectly possible, just look at games like Okami and that new prince of persia. making a game look like its painted or drawn is possible nowadays but you need to make sure thats what you want. it wouldnt be something you could just trun on and off like a filter, making artistic games like that requires modleing and texturing for that purpose, from the ground up.

personally i thought the graphics in deadly shadows were gorgeous, i didnt like some things (Garretts outfit was just a tad silly) but other than that it captured alot of the dank atmopshere of the City, just sand down some of the rough edges and make things a bit clearer (and more fluid, some of the animations were horrible) and youve got good stuff.

[Yaphy]

another thing i think is essential to the City though, is dynamic crowds, alot of people walking around, visiting market stalls, driving carriages down the broader streets. it would do to help the immersiveness of the game alot, and would add a new dimension to stealth.


True, but the game take place at night/evening/morning and therefor it shouldnt be to much crowds.

[Zahr Dalsk]

They wouldn't have to worry about gameplay suffering if they just copied the gameplay mechanics from Thief 1 and 2, because those were pretty much perfect. (Thief DS, not so much.)

[Secondary]

True, but the game take place at night/evening/morning and therefor it shouldnt be to much crowds.

excellent point. but im not talking about the entire city, i was thinking about crowds in restricted areas. for instance, worshippers crowding around Hammerite cathedrals for late services, especially on feast days. there will always be people out at night, sometimes alot of them. i dont mean to say i want packed streets milling with people in every part of the city at night. as you say, thats just not realistic.

[Davehall380]

excellent point. but im not talking about the entire city, i was thinking about crowds in restricted areas. for instance, worshippers crowding around Hammerite cathedrals for late services, especially on feast days. there will always be people out at night, sometimes alot of them. i dont mean to say i want packed streets milling with people in every part of the city at night. as you say, thats just not realistic.

Large numbers of actors would require alot of voice acting. Get in alot of voice actors and id like to see a few large crowds (who doesnt enjoy a good linching?). Nothing would break the immersion more though than having 8 identical members of the crowd shout in broken unison 'guards, guards over here, hes got a sword' in the same voice.

[Secondary]

Large numbers of actors would require alot of voice acting. Get in alot of voice actors and id like to see a few large crowds (who doesnt enjoy a good linching?). Nothing would break the immersion more though than having 8 identical members of the crowd shout in broken unison 'guards, guards over here, hes got a sword' in the same voice.

Lol, very true.

[Secondary]

by the by. how does everyone feel about mocap (motion capture) for most if not all of the animations?

personally i think it should be used for some (not all, but things like guards and civilian), it brings a lifelike quality to characters that keyframing rarely achieves.

[jtr7]

I would love mo-cap for the AIs, but real mo-cap, not mo-cap data heavily-tweaked by hand.

[Secondary]

agreed, i dont understand the merit in using mo-cap if your going to mess it up with that sort of modification, but yet, some people do it:scratch:

[jtr7]

It's like dropping in a template and personalizing it, instead of building from scratch. Cheap.

[Tuxu]

the px r very nice, but no.
i want a realistic looking game so i can judge the shadow by they're looks - without a need for a HUD shadow stone.

Large numbers of actors would require alot of voice acting. Get in alot of voice actors and id like to see a few large crowds (who doesnt enjoy a good linching?). Nothing would break the immersion more though than having 8 identical members of the crowd shout in broken unison 'guards, guards over here, hes got a sword' in the same voice.

but why? maybe they're family?

guard1: hi cousin! should we arrest this guy?
guard2: sure cousin, but lets call cousin for backup.
guard1: Yo! cousin! getchyo'ass over here yo'fat lazy basterd!
guard3: ok ok, just havin a nap after mom's pie...

or even worst, what if they work for vader?!? :eek:

[jtr7]

So...you want 3rd-person, then? Else, how can you judge where any shaft of light anywhere on your body might be giving you away?

[Tuxu]

So...you want 3rd-person, then? Else, how can you judge where any shaft of light anywhere on your body might be giving you away?

naa, fps, old style man.
i can see my hands, right?
and maybe shft+right click lets you move only your head so you could check your body.

It would make you un sure, more dangerous this way >:D

Thief is secssesful because it does what it do and i don't want that changed.

[jtr7]

You realize looking yourself over for light falling on you won't always work, and that it's tedious? You may step into light without knowing it and be seen before you can glance at yourself. Some light sources don't seem too bright in-game, almost just ambient, but the light gem will show you are visible enough to warrant caution. It's there for several reasons and streamlines the game where we lack peripheral vision and eyes that move in their sockets.


Yep. That doesn't need changing, just minimizing.

[Tuxu]

we agree.
I just want to see the HUD gets minimized.
I was thinking what if there are noises from your immediate serrounding and noises from the background, like from the other rooms, maybe down the hall, idk.
you hear them like you normaly would when you are visible but when you are completely hidden the contrast between them grow. The immidiate ones are more sharp and the far ones are more muffled, due to the fact that you are focused on hiding or eavesdropping.

I guess what im saying is that i would make the sounds be the indicator of how hidden the player is.

If they do that and make the gem optional, I would check it off.

[13LACK13ISHOP]

The crysis engine could do a very good unreal game if they put it towards that purpose. I am not keen on the ut3 engine. Just dont look right.

[jtr7]

There were many many instances where an AI could see without you seeing them without crouching or peeking through holes they were facing. Aural detection doesn't make up for visual in the game. Light shining on the back of your calf with an AI facing you from behind, idling silently before you know they are there means the master thief doesn't have the edge. Dropping down into a room before being able to assess the lighting can spoil the first time playthrough. Lots of examples.