Rival Thief(s) – Know one to stop one…

[SeaBiscuit]

I would really like to see additional thieves in the game possibly causing others to “lock their doors” or be more cautious… Possibly, if you take to long to go grab an item then you have to go check their place… because they have beat you to it… 
That would also make it possible for them to break into our house(s) and steal supplies and other items we have stored up…

- SeaBiscuit

[randomtaffer]

I like this idea. There have been many fan missions made where Garrett is in "competition" with another Thief trying to rob the same house or looking for the same thing.

[VIKTORIA]

Yes, this is realistic and could work well as previous fan missions have illustrated. :thumb:

[xXFl4meXx]

Oh wow, that is an awesome idea, it would be fuuun >: D

[Direlord]

Would these thiefs be AI or another person as in a multiplayer like segment? if another person with multiplayer why not have a co-op type of missions as well?

If AI and part of the story i think this could work if they had the city level again or on specific missions only. I wouldn't expect to see another thief in a haunted hammerite cathedral but the docks or so i can believe there are other thiefs working the same area.

[Yaddoshi]

Would these thiefs be AI or another person as in a multiplayer like segment? if another person with multiplayer why not have a co-op type of missions as well?

I just joined so I could suggest multiplayer, with the ability to create your own custom thief, and not be just constrained to the character of Garrett (although he would be an excellent default option, or alternatively your instructor).

[randomtaffer]

I just joined so I could suggest multiplayer, with the ability to create your own custom thief, and not be just constrained to the character of Garrett (although he would be an excellent default option, or alternatively your instructor).

Even better: Make the engine very multiplayer compatible, but focus on single player. That way, the thief fan community can take care of the multiplayer idea.

[Zeraliten]

Rivals would be a great idea, as long as all of them and their hideouts were persistent throughout the whole game, similar to how some parts of the STALKER games are. So if someone beats you to an objective you could still stumble upon that thief later. Or you could drop by his hideout and steal the item back. Or better yet, follow him to his dropoff point and then steal the item.

Another idea I've been toying with in my head would be the creation of a sort of rival/nemesis for Garrett. For the sake of simplifying and not going into a massively long post here, think of a stereotypical rival catburglar. Rogue-like/swashbuckler-type personality. Garrett and {rival} might argue, they might engage in semi-friendly competitive rivalry or perhaps even reaching some form of unspoken agreement. Honor among thieves, more or less. A might be pissed that B got to object X first, but at the same time respect the skill of the other. A hypothetical example would be the kind of character interaction one might see if a Thief-universe version of Vala Mal Doran (of Stargate sg-1) were to encounter Kevin Costner's rendition of Robin Hood. Obviously not these two exact character types should be ported over to Thief, but the kind of character relationships and development one might see from a pairing similar to that would be, imo, an interesting thing to see in Thief 4. This could also be a way to build upon the closure of Thief 3 with a reintroduction of the kid seen in the ending. That said, I feel that such a thing would have to be mostly a story on the sideline of the real story in Thief 4 and not a major plot device.

[GmanPro]

Your post gives me an idea. I remember in Thief 1 Garrett mentioned being pestered by local crime lords to join their organization. They didn't like that he was freelance. This led to the mission with Ramirez's mansion (one of my favorites :D). I'm sure that Ramirez isn't the only crime lord in the city and it would be cool to see where that goes. Kinda fits better with the prequel story-line idea...

[acridrose]

It works very well in a scripted sense too- remember Mosley :thumb:
A third party threat in a mission is a good idea :)

[[PT] Garret [PT]]

I would really like to see additional thieves in the game possibly causing others to “lock their doors” or be more cautious… Possibly, if you take to long to go grab an item then you have to go check their place… because they have beat you to it… 
That would also make it possible for them to break into our house(s) and steal supplies and other items we have stored up…

- SeaBiscuit



what about multiplayer events to steal random manors/castles/fortresses etc...? before ur oponnent or with someone`s help

[FriendlyStranger]

As for multiplayer I'm full in I can imagine coop/versus modes which really could provide a lot of fun if well coded.

[Hypevosa]

I love the idea, but I have a demand that goes with it if it's implemented... we can't have the cliche garbage where somehow they get there before you, but all the traps are still set, all the guards are still there, etc etc. It's been done too many times in videogames where your character is set out to do something, but *gasp* somehow there's already someone who got there, despite them apparently having floated invisibly through all the crap your character just had to go through.

If rival thieves come into play, they must leave signs they were there - no magically the item is gone. This is what keeps going through my head:

Garrett has just gone through the sewers of bafford's manor, and made it past all the guards and to the first floor. Upon entering the hallway he sees a pool of blood. Going up the staircase that leads to one of the little circle rooms he sees a body under a table. Going back to the pool of blood *player right clicks on it* garrett touches his fingers to it. "It's still...warm... It would appear someone else had similar plans tonight..." The simple job has now become a race. Garrett dashes up the staircase to find another body, right clicking this one (remember, these aren't all mandatory, if the player wants to play detective they can, if not just to hear stephen russell's voice :D) garrett touches his fingers to the mans neck. "Well he's not dead, but he's out..." Garrett goes into the grassy courtyard and sees a suspicious looking banner and cuts it (you TDP/Tgold players better be smiling) Looking at his map he realises this goes in the direction of the room with the sceptre. He gives a grin and makes his way down the dark corridor feeling around in the darkness. He takes a left and sees a bit of light peering between wooden beams. Walking out onto one he sees a guard in the distance. He pulls a water arrow, and takes aim, suddenly the torch is out. Garrett slowly releases his bow and puts the arrow back in his quiver. Makes his way across the beams slowly as 2 other torches go out. He scans the darkness, his eyes happen upon a moving shadow. "Now... how to resolve this little dilemma..." The shadow can be seen patting a black stick against one of his hands, Garrett moves towards the guard via the beams, creeping to not make a sound, and makes his perch facing the throne room. The guard turns to face the throne, SMACK "ugh..." the rival thief dispatches the guard. He then creeps forward to the throne room and stands up peering to either side within. A flutter of a cloak is heard and SMACK AIR-KOSH. "Well, it looks like that's settled, and now I have someone else to take the fall..." Garrett grabs the sceptre, and all the loot in the complex and leaves out the side gate.

[jtr7]

So, like in the games, when Garrett goes into someplace, and people have already gotten their before him, but they are all DEAD from the traps?

[Hypevosa]

maybe just a few are dead

[jtr7]

Maybe some are insane from their experiences in the dungeons of DOOOOOOM!

[gryphos]

I think that this is a great idea, and have advocated it myself elsewhere. I also think that it is an idea that is like pepper and cloves in cooking - if it's too common it ceases to be good. I think it reaches its maximum potential when either it would be something that is scripted to occur in one or two dramatically appropriate missions, or if it is a triggered event in which the rival only appears if Garrett does certain things over time in game - like when he acquires a certain amount of loot or something. The second would be harder to do I imagine in my non-technical inexpertise with programming, though if the AI just has a very particular logic and some kind of homing beacon in every level that he shoots strait for (according to some stealth algorithm) then it would not be as hard I suppose.

[Hypevosa]

I was thinking how it would be hard to program another thief... when does he hide, when does he use his blackjack, when does he just kill the guy... does he put out all the torches or just a few, does he lay mines, etc. Programming another thief would be very, very complicated, because if we want a good one, they can do around 15 things more than your average guard can...

That or they'd just script him to follow a certain path and always do certain things... but then what happens when Garrett interrupts that path (i.e. a guard isn't there that normally is). And what about when Garrett is IN that path (i.e. the loot is already gone, or Garrett is known to the thief). Does he lie somewhere in ambush? Does he actively seek Garrett out with a little bit of omniscience (though not too much)?

It would be awesome, but there's soooo much to do...

[jtr7]

The only way to keep an AI thief a challenge to Garrett would be through programming cheats and tricks to create the illusion of elusiveness. And it would have to compensate for player ingenuity. The Thief would be more special effects, or actually never confrontable, and the mission design would show he/she was already there, and that he/she had set up traps for Garrett, and most of the confrontation would be taunting in notes, scripted sounds and fleeting glimpses, and in the movies. It would be like the original Enforcer concept without the Keeper aspects.

[Hypevosa]

but see, that would be bull****... the same bull**** every other game feeds you when it pulls the elusive rival card (where you can't do anything about them, either through them being immortal somehow when you first meet them, or them never being interacted with till the end of the game). If they do this I want the possibility to actually beat out the other thief - not just have to accept that he got to the prize before I did, and that he's somehow invisible (having infinite invisibility potions would be BS as well). If he steps into any degree of light, I want to be able to see him... if I step into any degree of light he should see me, we should be equal in our ability to see and hear things - none of that non-sense where they can do more things than you automatically.

[gryphos]

Unfortunately, I think jtr is right, in that to do it with current AI programming ability, you would have to use programming cheats. However, I'm not sure that you couldn'd make some sense of illusion without resorting to scripted events. Of course, I'm speaking as a complete non-programmer, but it seems that the sort of AI that you could build would make for an interesting opponent with a distinctly stealthy bent, but one that would nontheless have a distinctly different style than Garrett. In the end, to ask for an NPC with exactly equal capabilities to the PC is not realistic when you have bots. However, I think you could get an interesting opponent if you used a set of programming rules that looked something like this:

1) AI follows a priority objective list that mirrors Garrett's mission objective list and moves toward each objective in turn by the shortest path subject to conditionals. As Garrett checks off each mission objective, AI re-evaluates the priority list, so that if Garrett's objective (e.g. "acquire key for vault") is cleared, that is removed from AI priority list. This is a kind of unfair limited omnicience but does insure in game that there is more likeihood of an encounter or outright confrontation.

2) AI conditional: path selection would work like a dynamic chess bot, in which light/shadows and sounding surface, and nearby guards were all tallied into a decision matrix, and the nearest hiding spot in the direction of the objective is selected. This still would not be as smart or unpredictable as Garrett, but could be as good as a good chess bot. Besides, Garrett is supposed to be the best. It's just that this opponent would be an entirely different sort than all the rest.

3) AI conditional: AI would have limited omnicience of guard alert state. Guards that reach an alarm/hostile state would trigger AI to suspend path mapping long enough to engage. Priority sequence of engagement would be flashbomb/run, missile weapon, melee weapon, run. When guard goes into lower alert state, path mapping resumes.

4) AI conditional: when in visual range of torches, AI automatically shoots water arrow as long as it doesn't detect guard alert. When it encounters tile or metal, it automatically shoots moss arrow.

5) AI conditional: when in x proximity of Garrett, it suspends path mapping, and goes into modified path map mode with Garrett as target, deploying attacks in the same sequence as with guards.

I think that this would certainly be complex, but doable. It would not be as tough a challenge as guards, but it would be crazy different than any other opponent, and probably quite sufficient to make the illusion, without being insurmountable. It would further be dynamic, so that it behaves differently in every replay because it responds to differing conditions every time based on differences in light, sound surfaces, guard patterns, where Garrett is, and what sequence he goes after objectives. And as a non-scripted AI, it would be possible to insert any time anywhere as for instance, I've mentioned before, once Garrett reaches a certain loot score or a certain number of special mission items or whatever, which could happen at any time in the game. Thus, the game itself changes (though not the master plot) because you don't know what level you will encounter the rival.

[Hamadriyad]

What If this rival thief is Dante from the Circle of Stone and Shadow? Wouldn't it be nice?;)

[Hypevosa]

1) AI follows a priority objective list that mirrors Garrett's mission objective list and moves toward each objective in turn by the shortest path subject to conditionals. As Garrett checks off each mission objective, AI re-evaluates the priority list, so that if Garrett's objective (e.g. "acquire key for vault") is cleared, that is removed from AI priority list. This is a kind of unfair limited omnicience but does insure in game that there is more likeihood of an encounter or outright confrontation.

I think their objective list should only include things regarding loot. If one of Garrett's objectives is to find blackmail for a friend or something, it doesn't make sense for the other thief to do it. Instead of omniscience, why not just have the AI figure out that something is up on their own? If we both have the objective to get a key from location X, and I get there first, he should still go to location X, and upon discovering the key is missing, then try to find the key. If they have encountered any unconscious guards or what not, they know that someone else is there, so they'll probably instead head directly to whatever the key went to to wait for the rival thief to use it there, and maybe even set a trap like a gas mine on the floor in front of said target, or by the door of said target.

3) AI conditional: AI would have limited omnicience of guard alert state. Guards that reach an alarm/hostile state would trigger AI to suspend path mapping long enough to engage. Priority sequence of engagement would be flashbomb/run, missile weapon, melee weapon, run. When guard goes into lower alert state, path mapping resumes.


Let the thief know when he's in proximity X what the guards' alert state is, they don't need to know all the guards' states unless they can see them and hear them. Maybe a random generator could determine if the thief is a hostile thief or a subtle thief (i.e. do they want to kill, or just get away) and based on that they'll have different tools (explosive mines vs gas mines etc). Hostile thieves tending to kill targets unless others are around (in which case a silent knockout works) - subtle thieves sneaking, and using the flashbomb and run technique if spotted - moving guards out of the way with noise arrows (the real question is do they get any gas arrows...)

4) AI conditional: when in visual range of torches, AI automatically shoots water arrow as long as it doesn't detect guard alert. When it encounters tile or metal, it automatically shoots moss arrow.

The AI should not have an infinite arsenal of moss and water arrows. Instead they should look for other AI's or Garrett, and if no one is audible or visible, then they should simply creep across metal or in the case of a torch, use the quickest movement possible to get by based on distance from someone. Obviously if they detect they are in an AI's sight cone, they should put it out right away. We don't want 50 moss patches and no torches left, because that's too tell tale a sign of a rival thief... let there be some chance to catch the player unawares.


5) AI conditional: when in x proximity of Garrett, it suspends path mapping, and goes into modified path map mode with Garrett as target, deploying attacks in the same sequence as with guards.

No, no proximity of Garrett... Garrett should be visible before attacked, if he's heard the thief is on alert like guards, but instead of checking corners just sits and looks around - if Garrett becomes visible after 30 seconds, THEN he pursues Garrett (if he's a hostile thief) or attempts to just beat Garrett to the target (if he's subtle, probably deploying a flashbomb and rushing past if the target is close by, oh I can imagine the chase :D it would be fun).

[gryphos]

>>I think their objective list should only include things regarding loot.
Good call. That makes sense.

>>Instead of omniscience, why not just have the AI figure out that something is up on their own?
OK… but how do you create that program logic? You may know more about that kind of thing than I do, but a computer is only as smart as the logic rules you give it. What rules make the illusion of “figuring it out”?

>>Let the thief know when he's in proximity X what the guards' alert state is, they don't need to know all the guards' states unless they can see them and hear them.
Sure.

>>Maybe a random generator could determine if the thief is a hostile thief or a subtle thief
That could be interesting.

>>The AI should not have an infinite arsenal of moss and water arrows
Right. I don’t think so either - they just follow that logic rule according to what equip they have. Actually, I think they should have a quiver/gear limit just like I think Garrett should. And archer guards too for that matter (though even if they shoot all their stuff and then run for help, if you blackjack them, you should get an arrow or two from their quiver just as a gameplay mechanic to make the limited quiver a more usable idea.)

>>No, no proximity of Garrett... Garrett should be visible before attacked,
A good refinement. Within a certain proximity, he goes into alert state, but doesn’t necessarily see Garrett. This rule would help insure that some kind of encounter is more likely. If you don’t build in rules that nudge a collision, and Garrett and the rival just ghost past each other, then you kinda’ negate the fun of this guy.

>>or attempts to just beat Garrett to the target (if he's subtle, probably deploying a flashbomb and rushing past if the target is close by, oh I can imagine the chase it would be fun).
That would be a hoot! A race through the house flash bombing each other while everybody else screams, wondering what the heck is going on! :)

[jtr7]

And the player just gas arrows him/her, or does something bloodier, especially on the second playthrough or after a quicksave, unless it's somehow randomized, and the player can't toss a mine into the room and let the rival blow themselves up.






I still think this idea would be better suited:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief-taker

[DarthEnder]

I think it just works as, like, an artificial time limit. Very much like Kidnap.

Cavador has his path through the level. You can catch him at any time and take him out, or if you take too long, he gets to his heavily fortified room at the end, making it harder.

The rival thieves would be the same, they'd have a set path, kill specific guards(cause they aren't as professional as Garret), douse specific torches, and eventually, get to the loot, make their escape, and return to their heavily protected rally point.

But if you run into them on the way, you can take them out early.

[jtr7]

If the rival's path is predictable, or even the location of the main prize, and the mission is made for multiple paths to break up the sense of linearity to let the player approach the goal differently, then Garrett could just get ahead of the rival and lay a trap/ambush.

[gryphos]

Which is why I would rather see this rival work much more like a chess algorithm, calculating torch, guard, and tile/metal floor positions instead of knight, rook, and bishop positions. It would obviously be more complex still, as the rival would also have to take into account alert states, unconscious bodies, etc. but the basic concept is there. As for the pathfinding / random path bit... if the game inserts the rival at one of 5 points on the mission map, the AI still uses the same movement rules no matter what so the conditions determine the outcome, not a Cavador circuit. I think a more basic circuit is OK for guards, but the rival should be far superior.

[jtr7]

Yeah, and this is why I suggested a series of special effects, rather than an AI that has to move through all that space. It would require AI unparalleled to mimic human behavior and cunning. It would have to cheat to stay one step ahead of the player and never in range of weaponry. It would probably have to drop mines or something to slow the player down--unless the player had healing potions and allowed him/herself to get caught in explosions when they would not be fatal. Or something.