View Full Version : Enhancing replayability of Thief 4
I pretty much understand that right now it's too early to discuss game's replayability since the only thing we have is just the terrible logo, but it's better sooner than later anyway.
Thief has always been a series of games with remarkable amount of replayability. The missions are highly non-linear, the gameplay mechanics allow for lots of different exciting events that happen in the game on the fly. We also have hundreds and hundreds of fan-missions that make the game eternally enjoyable. However, I have always felt that the replay value of Thief can be radically increased by adding some randomly generated aspects to the game.
Let me explain what I mean.
On a regular Thief mission, we have a place that is patrolled by guards and filled with goods. The locations and properties of guards and loot are almost always set in stone: every time you play the mission, guards patrol the same hallways, and the goods reside in the same chests. However, in Thief 2 Looking Glass tried to change that just a little. In Eavesdropping mission, the important key appears in different locations from play to play, and in First City Bank & Trust we've got some cameras and guards that may appear or may not appear during the game. We alse have 'random patrol' property that can be set to all walking AIs, so you never know where the guard is going to walk right now.
But this can be - should be! - enhanced. If you play a given Thief mission for a couple of times, you already know exactly which locations are patrolled, and which rooms will never be visited by any of the AI. It really kills the tension. Lock Garrett in a bedroom, step out of the computer and go have a cup of tea - when you return back to your game, Garrett will be standing there not chased by any of the guards. Well, this is not good. As far as I know, the creators of The Dark Mod are already working on improving this by adding random actions set to NPC - a servant may walk here or there, sit down on a chair, get up and then go to another floor, and this behavior is not scripted.
I want the same thing to happen in Thief 4. I want guard positions and patrol routes to be randomised from play to play. I want never to be sure that this or that room is a safe haven. Also, I think it would be great if the loot locations and the placement of some important quest items are randomised too - so that each time I restart the mission, I should search for it again. Of course, it shouldn't contradict with the story and level design (I don't think it will be cool to find a valuable scepter somewhere in a restroom), but to some extent this randomness should be used, I think.
What do you think about that, guys?
Vlad27145
05-12-2009, 02:43 AM
If it's doable (I know it is tech wise, not sure as far as time/money goes) THAT WOULD BE FRIGGIN' AWESOME!
vorob_
05-12-2009, 02:45 AM
Well, first good proposal. Think developers should look into it... As for me, dreamed about this thing for a long time.
Thank you very much!
If it's doable (I know it is tech wise, not sure as far as time/money goes) THAT WOULD BE FRIGGIN' AWESOME!
Yeah, actually it's doable quite easily in DromEd too. Unfortunately, Looking Glass never developed into that aspect of the game profoundly.
Very good idea although if you want realy looooong term replayability you need the game editor.
vorob_
05-12-2009, 02:58 AM
you need the game editor.
Think this will be another good proposal :)
Very good idea although if you want realy looooong term replayability you need the game editor.
Yeah, that goes without question. :)
dogsolitude_uk
05-12-2009, 03:49 AM
I'd suggest having different arrangements of guards/cameras/stuff in the level depending on the difficulty level...
I'd suggest having different arrangements of guards/cameras/stuff in the level depending on the difficulty level...
That's exactly how original games work and it has little to do with replayability.
Gorephazer
05-12-2009, 10:27 AM
I agree completely.
It would be amazing if they could even take it a step further and make guard spawns and patrols completely randomized...
xXFl4meXx
05-12-2009, 10:37 AM
That would be awesome, it would make the game far more realistic and challenging. It bes true that the game got to easy when theres a safe haven.. its always good to get surprised. I can just imagine how angry ghosters would get when they get caught.. This way they would get caught much more frequently, & memorizing the patrols wouldnt really make the game easier for them, like in the previous games.
randomtaffer
05-12-2009, 10:49 AM
You don't need to memorize patrols to properly ghost.
I think a cool feature would be to have a spectating feature after the level is complete.
Perhaps you could see the mission from each guard's point of view and be able to switch between them on the fly. Also, you'd be able to free float spectate so you can watch yourself do the mission, see where you made a mistake, etc.
It would also be nice to have the option to make yourself either illuminated in spectator mode (so you can see where you are when you're in the shadows) or blend in with shadows. Would be kind of neat watching yourself ambush a guard or sneaking around.
xXFl4meXx
05-12-2009, 10:53 AM
You don't need to memorize patrols to properly ghost.
True, however you do if you want to finish faster, otherwise youll spend 2 hours ghosting on one mission... Then again.. I forgot that some people have a lot of time on their hands and enjoy that...
randomtaffer
05-12-2009, 10:56 AM
Well, the great thing about Thief is that it encourages careful planning and thinking on your feet. It isn't about finishing the mission as fast as possible. I'm not sure that I could really enjoy a game that I rushed through...You've got to take it slow to really immerse yourself in the wonderful environments. At least I have to, to find out if I actually like the game or not.
Platinumoxicity
05-12-2009, 11:02 AM
Also, you'd be able to free float spectate so you can watch yourself do the mission, see where you made a mistake, etc.
The problem with free float mode is that you'd be able to find secret areas that you normally would have to look for. It takes away all the mystery. :hmm:
randomtaffer
05-12-2009, 11:03 AM
The problem with free float mode is that you'd be able to find secret areas that you normally would have to look for. It takes away all the mystery. :hmm:
Good point, I never thought about that. Perhaps fixed cameras would be best then.
I like the idea of semi-randomness for number of guards, patrol routes and loot locations.
I also think having more choice in what types of weapons/armor/equipment Garrett can choose to bring into a mission = more re-playability.
I would think a weight/encumbrance/penalty system would further enhance re-playability. For example, players could choose to go into missions fully equipped with the max equipment and heaviest weapons/armor....but would suffer speed/stealth penalties. While other players could choose to go in with the bare minimum but move at 100% speed/stealth.
This would allow for VERY different gameplay experiences as well as different tactical choices.
Finally, Multiplayer options would further enhance re-playability....but devs must be careful to make the single player story a priority.
xXFl4meXx
05-12-2009, 12:08 PM
I also think having more choice in what types of weapons/armor/equipment Garrett can choose to bring into a mission = more re-playability.
Finally, Multiplayer options would further enhance re-playability....but devs must be careful to make the single player story a priority.
I like the idea and all, but people will say that the playstyle where you wear more armor & move slower doesnt fit into the game because that just isnt Garrett's style.
About multiplayer, the question is what would it be like? Have you got any ideas? Are you thinking like, customizing your own Thief character, & grouping up with friends on a certain mission? Or maybe try to beat each other to the treasure or something? That would be pretty interesting..
Mr McGee
05-12-2009, 01:21 PM
I really want this. Ever since I beat Thief 2 I thought the game's already great re-playability would be made even more amazing by adding random(to a certain extent of course) AI positions and behaviors.
theBlackman
05-12-2009, 01:32 PM
Good idea. You may have noticed that there was a little randomness in the games. If you made a Save or QS when a guard was nearby. A reload was always slightly different. The guard had not yet arrived, or his path was slightly different.
But a somewhat more realistic approach, as mentioned would definitely enhance the game.
Platinumoxicity
05-12-2009, 02:01 PM
I think it's already bee implemented into the Dark Mod, but making the guards sometimes sit down and rest/accidentally fall asleep would add some unpredictability to the game.
Another idea: If you put out a torch in the route of a patrolling guard that is using a light (torch), he could light it up again. If the guard hasn't got a light, he could go get a new, dry torch from storage, thus straying off his normal path.
And one thing that was missing from the start. When the guards have been alerted that there is an intruder in the area, they should start searching the rooms systematically.
Good idea. You may have noticed that there was a little randomness in the games. If you made a Save or QS when a guard was nearby. A reload was always slightly different. The guard had not yet arrived, or his path was slightly different.
Don't think I know what you're talking about. I never saw this though i played the first two games to death.
nother idea: If you put out a torch in the route of a patrolling guard that is using a light (torch), he could light it up again. If the guard hasn't got a light, he could go get a new, dry torch from storage, thus straying off his normal path.
Actually this can happen in Thief 2, but it happens very rarely. I believe I've seen this guard behavior only on First City Bank & Trust, and I believe it was a scripted action.
GmanPro
05-12-2009, 04:40 PM
Good idea. You may have noticed that there was a little randomness in the games. If you made a Save or QS when a guard was nearby. A reload was always slightly different. The guard had not yet arrived, or his path was slightly different.
I remember this.
nother idea: If you put out a torch in the route of a patrolling guard that is using a light (torch), he could light it up again. If the guard hasn't got a light, he could go get a new, dry torch from storage, thus straying off his normal path.
I remember that the guards would always turn on the gas lamps if they were out, and would turn on the electrical lights if you had switched them off. I used to get annoyed that I had to use a water arrow to turn off the gas lamps. Why couldn't I just go and turn them off?
Good idea. You may have noticed that there was a little randomness in the games. If you made a Save or QS when a guard was nearby. A reload was always slightly different. The guard had not yet arrived, or his path was slightly different.
That might have more to do with technical limitations and perhaps not saving the seed-value used by the AI's random number generator.
DiegoFloor
05-12-2009, 07:06 PM
Replayability is always nice. But if that's out of the question, simply releasing an editor will keep the thief community occupied for a loooong time, increasing the replayability.. sort of.
Ice1019
05-12-2009, 11:53 PM
I think the scaleable difficulty and the new objectives and loot it added really boosted replayablity. I think EM should keep this going, I hate it when the tell me that finding all the totally unnecessary easter eggs adds to the replay factor. Assassin's Creed was like that, sure you could collect all those stupid flags, but it didn't change the gameplay at all.
EM, please, organic, gameplay-affecting changes like new objectives or restrictions are what increases replay value, not item hunts that don't change the gameplay.
GmanPro
05-12-2009, 11:57 PM
Stuff that increases replay for me would be like in The life of the Party, if you are thorough in your exploration you could find the switch to disable Karras's alarm. The little details that you only notice if you take the time to savor everything. Its the kind of stuff you probably shouldn't notice in one playthrough because you're supposed to be completely immersed into the story, and everything should be moving so quickly. That feeling you get when you can't wait to find out what happens next. When you just don't want to stop playing. Deus Ex achieved this feeling flawlessly and Thief 2 to some extent.
clearing
05-13-2009, 01:59 AM
Very good idea, Bono!
Also, try T2 FM The Mirror (http://thiefmissions.com/info.cgi?m=Mirror) by Zontik ;)
Great ideas Bono and everyone, but don't hold your breath. We're in the era of 6 hour games whose lifespan can only be extended with unlocked difficulty levels, garbage achievement systems and paid DLC's. :mad2:
Great ideas Bono and everyone, but don't hold your breath. We're in the era of 6 hour games whose lifespan can only be extended with unlocked difficulty levels, garbage achievement systems and paid DLC's. :mad2:
Yeah, that's true. The industry is pretty much against replayability - no need to work on random events and mulitiple ways to complete a mission if the game is meant to be completed during a couple of evenings by the majority of gamers who will forget about it the next day.
Phaid
05-13-2009, 03:25 AM
Nice idea OP, but what made Thief games extremely replayable was multiple ways of completing a level. The missions were NON-LINEAR, OPEN unlike later released games like Splinter Cell that were horribly linear - if there were multiple paths, they were forced upon the player. We need open locations, not corridor after corridor.
DoomyDoomyDoomDoom
05-16-2009, 02:06 AM
ooohoooo! glad I noticed this thread. It would be SUPER replayable with randomized loot and guards. Look at Raven Shield or Swat 4. I certainly wouldn't have played those levels as much as I did if they were exactly the same every time.
All that on top of vastly superior, unpredictable AI, and fan missions would have me playing Thief 4 longer than the others. And that is LONG.
errr I think I'm getting too excited hanging around this board. I really don't want to get my hopes up.
Great ideas Bono and everyone, but don't hold your breath. We're in the era of 6 hour games whose lifespan can only be extended with unlocked difficulty levels, garbage achievement systems and paid DLC's. :mad2:
ugh I know. That heavily scripted, linear campaign is not going to be replayed. Random events, 'side' missions, and the "what if I played this way" question can entice me to play the game again and again. As games are nowadays, I might make myself play through a campaign again by setting up a ridiculous rule like 'pistols only' or something.
Platinumoxicity
05-16-2009, 02:23 AM
Firstly, I think the loot should have many different "spawning" areas so you'd always have to find them, not just go where they always are and take them.
How about this:
When you've finished the game, you get options for all the missions, like the amount of guards, their perception, amount of loot, tools and weapons, optional bonus objectives and maybe even time of day. :)
This way you could play your favorite missions in a different way each time.
Necros
05-16-2009, 03:21 AM
Great ideas Bono and everyone, but don't hold your breath. We're in the era of 6 hour games whose lifespan can only be extended with unlocked difficulty levels, garbage achievement systems and paid DLC's. :mad2:
It doesn't look like EM is doing things that way, they promised a long DX3, so I guess the same goes for Thief 4 too.
simlan
05-16-2009, 02:54 PM
hell yea
Flashart
05-17-2009, 12:38 AM
Maybe a few "unique" spawnable items that you could "decorate" your lair with. Maybe
the chance to rent a room or buy a house or do something with the loot. If you keep the loot tight
you'd only get one chance during the game.
Or a couple of optional side quests, randomly generated from fences etc.
I've played TDP x 2, TMA x 4, TDS x 2, and T2X x 1 plus a lot of FMs. I think if the levels are rich in exploration it encourages replay.
Jilly The Taffer
05-17-2009, 09:00 AM
IF Garrett AND the girl from DS are both present in the game, it should be like this:
We can choose to be either Garrett or the girl (his apprentice) from the very start.
If we choose him, it will be just like DP, MA and DS. Garrett is the main character. But with cutscenes including the minor character of the girl.
If we choose her, it will be a whole new experience, the City through a new pair of eyes. She is the main character, but with cutscenes including Garrett very heavily. Garrett will be featured more of a secondary main character, rather than a minor.
Inspector Drept
05-20-2009, 07:11 PM
Iīve been thinking about the game replayability and how to add new layers of gameplay without changing Thief core values.
One great way to add replayability to a mission is the different objectives. If you choose NORMAL itīs usually grab the main loot and itīs over. With HARD itīs grab the loot and find the exit. With EXPERT itīs find the main loot, all the special items, donīt kill anyone and find the exit. Plus these modes also change the patrol routes, number of AI and add new rooms that werenīt availiable to explore.
So hereīs my idea:
What if at the start of every mission you could not only choose your difficulty but also select those famous restriction modes to make the gameplay even more replayable and challenging?
When youīre on the mission briefing you will have to choose NORMAL/HARD/EXPERT.
Then above these options there will be an optional tab with ALL LOOT/GHOSTING/NO BLOOD etc. They are all optional, you donīt need to choose them.
Some examples:
ALL LOOT - The mission wonīt end until you have 100% of loot, including all items and equipment that can be found.
GHOST MODE - If AI is alerted the mission fails. Simple as that.
NO BLOOD - If you get harmed mission fails.
ASSASSIN - Mission wonīt end until you kill ALL living things (not thiefy but hey, sometimes youīre in the mood for that)
HITMAN - A mix of GHOSTING with ASSASSIN. The mission objective will designate a target for you to kill. You must kill it without being noticed by any other AI.
GOLD VAMPIRE - Your health decreases constantly. Only aquiring loot makes your health raise back.
IRON MODE - The game wonīt let you save during the mission.
----------------------------------------------
Some of them can be stackable. So if you feel really hardcore just choose Expert mode and them check GHOST MODE, IRON MODE, NO BLOOD and GOLD VAMPIRE. That means youīre in a mission where you canīt save, canīt aware AI, canīt be harmed and your health is decreasing...
theBlackman
05-20-2009, 11:19 PM
Why add them. People have already imposed those limitations or options to their own play. THIEF is what you make it, and Speed runs, Ghosting, etc. are already available by personal choice.
I think the thought is reasonable, but the application is needless complication and more unnecessary garbage.
I don't see the problem with adding this. It's the same thing, only the game is actually holding the stopwatch, not just relying on you to judge. Which is better. It still allows for imagination.
Platinumoxicity
05-21-2009, 12:56 AM
You forgot the super ghost mode and absolute ghost mode
Super ghost mode: Take 100% of all loot and only loot and no tools, no alerts, no damage dealt on opponents, no disposable equipment used, no fires extinguished, no lights turned off that can't be turned back on, all doors closed that you have opened, all doors locked that you have unlocked, stolen keys brought back to where you took them from, and all objectives completed.
Absolute ghost mode: Same as above, but instead of just no alerts, your opponents can't have any indications of a disturbance. No "Hmm... Wonder what that was?"
1N54N3
05-21-2009, 09:37 AM
I completely agree. If they can do it without too much work involved, it would be a great addition.
It would be a great addition even if they can do it with much work involved
1N54N3
05-21-2009, 01:19 PM
Well the problem is that if they try to incorporate too many ideas at once, they'll end up taking 6 years to make the game :P
GmanPro
05-21-2009, 01:21 PM
^^ Not necessarily a bad thing...
huzi73
05-22-2009, 12:44 AM
I say do it!It would so make thief rock!!!
You forgot the super ghost mode and absolute ghost mode
Super ghost mode: Take 100% of all loot and only loot and no tools, no alerts, no damage dealt on opponents, no disposable equipment used, no fires extinguished, no lights turned off that can't be turned back on, all doors closed that you have opened, all doors locked that you have unlocked, stolen keys brought back to where you took them from, and all objectives completed.
Absolute ghost mode: Same as above, but instead of just no alerts, your opponents can't have any indications of a disturbance. No "Hmm... Wonder what that was?"
I would like EM not spending time for those extra difficulty modes. After all thief is a game not a torture:D
Hellion
05-22-2009, 02:56 AM
For me at least, the replayability value of THIEF lies solely in the sheer pleasure of playing such a great game (story-wise, mission-wise, acting-wise, briefings-wise, objectives-wise, everything-wise) and experiencing the same feeling each and every time.
Even if virtually nothing changes during each play-through, if the game is good you WILL play it again eventually. Simple as that.
Multiplayer mode, "Ironman" and "ghosting" modes, roaming cameras and the like...all these are more suited for a random and shallow action/stealth game like Splinter Cell IMO. A THIEF game should just offer a great single-player experience that excites the player every single time he/she goes through it. THAT should offer enough replayability value. Greatness lies in the simple things.
Maethius
05-22-2009, 07:19 AM
Now, nobody shoot me (or blackjack me!) for this suggestion, but I wouldn't mind opening an "arcade mode" after beating a mission.
Um, let me explain. In this mode you could play a mission almost endlessly due to random elements; treasure would spawn in pre-selected, subtle areas, civilians, guards, creatures... almost anything from the game's NPC menu... could be randomly spawned around the map. Even light sources could be randomized.
Now, I'm not suggesting that this is the ONLY replay value, but it would be like skulking practice and let you just amass a score for the fun of it.
I admit it, I have a guilty pleasure.... beating Ultima 9 and just exploring the hell out of the world for a long, long time. What if the player could beat the game and then just live out his or her thieving life with a little randomness thrown in? The really mission-centric places might be closed off, depending on how they were implemented in the story, but the City would be open to you. I suspect that creating little side missions of "find this trinket" for random NPCs would not be too difficult.
More, totally off the wall ideas:
After beating the game, you get a menu that lets you tailor your missions. Check boxes can let you alter missions in the manner you want to play:
_Use normal inhabitants
_Replace guards with monsters
_All doors locked
_All windows locked
_Rope arrows available
_Replace torches with magic lights
_Broad daylight!
_Raining (yes, even indoors!)
_Cannot be seen or heard
_Cannot be caught
_No killing
_Ghosting
_Replace bow with a Heckler & Koch HK PSG-1 sniper rifle
... and on and on. Look, I like Doom. I like that the original and I like Doom 3 for different reasons, but one thing I really loved was being able to use cheats just to have fun after I won the game on the hardest setting. Why not go a little nuts if it doesn't hamstring the core of the game?
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