HAUNTS/ZOMBIES: Why the Undead Discrimination?

[morty343]

That's my first request..

[GmanPro]

I'm with you

[sgt_geist]

Ya I agree %100... It was fun ti pick up zombie heads and throw them at things for distractions..

[Espion]

Hi guys,

I'm sure this question has been asked before but I'm wondering why so many people hate the undead levels in the first game?

For me they were some of the best levels, and definitely some of the most memorable moments. I remember crapping myself when the first corpse leapt to it's feet. Panicking when it didn't go down from a blackjack attack (obviously but I thought I'd try it anyway). Crapping myself again when it sprang back to life after a sword attack.

Suddenly I couldn't clear an area of it's "guards" reliably and be sure that they'd remain incapacitated. It created a very real aprehension and weariness as I played.

Then of course there was the satisfaction of finding the holy water fonts and finally blowing the damn things to pieces :D

The sense of forboding and dread that the Bonehoard, the Old Quarter and the Cathederal created was a very tense kind of immersion that I think came in perfect doses in the first game. The relief of escaping with my life was a lot more profound.

I'm not saying I prefer playing against the undead, just that they provided a very enjoyable alternative to the guards. Would one or two levels really hurt so much in the new game? ;)

Was it purely that they kept coming back to life that bugged everyone? (Looking at the "Should Guards Wake Up" thread, it would seem so).

~E

[KharN]

i jsut hate the undead period..

I mean dont get me wrong im a huge fan of the azombie thing.. But its everywhere now these days so im hoping they keep a more "realisitc" element to the new Thief game..

But on the first game.. I just thing it was a silly addition.. The game had a great storyline and excellent to play then all of a sudden your confronted by the undead.. was a tad off.. Yea there were other elements of the game that were "unrealistic" but the undead was a tad to far for me.. i still lvoe theg ame though i jsut think it coulda done without them..

[LPS]

Zombies are a good thing but only if they are like Alfa Romeo 8C - limited series ;) Too much of them and mission will juts become boring and easy mostly because they are very stupid and slow. There should be only a few of them, hidden in unsuspected places, sleeping in the dark waiting for you to pass by so they can then wake up, grab you from behind and make you scream like a little girl ;)

BTW - hello everybody :)

[Direlord]

i actually disliked the undead for the most part because they were so hard to take down and stay down. It seemed a lot of the time you were just running away. i remember one time i forgot what mission in t1 i had lots of zombies after me so i went into this circular type area that was a pit with a small beam leading to a ladder probably the way out for when you won (it's been a long time). There were probably 2-3 zombies on the bridge and several around the edges. Since i was on the ladder they just stood there in agro mode. 2 flashbombs later i was just running away.

I thought T2 had the best for the undead small sections or maybe 1 mission of undead.

So don't get rid of the undead I especially liked the haunts or the puppets from Cradle in T3 but i do think they should be minimal small sections of missions catacombs, small cemetarys and maybe 1 mission where you mostly face them.

[Hellion]

Exactly, small haunts (like the Hammerite skeletons patrolling the catacombs of the Mechanist Cathedral in Thief 2, for example; how dreadful was that "rustling chains" noise they made?") would work extremely better than entire missions dedicated to them (Bonehoard, Old City).

[VIKTORIA]

The Undead are essential to the fear-factor element of the game, that's my short 'n' sweet answer. :)

[Garrett21]

I love the undead some really great FM's consist of a lot of undead we need a form of fear in the Thief games they have always been there and should remain besides all ya had to do in older Thieves was knock em down and move on or outrun em

[Hypevosa]

The reason people hated the undead, was the fact that it turned from a stealth based thieving game, to an undead fighting game. There should be more genuine thievery in a thief game than scaving the ruins of a tomb or a zombie infested city or citadel. Also, they removed the knockout component which was so integral to the game, now you had to fight, and Garrett is not exactly a paladin who's seasoned in combat with the undead.

Undead should not be removed completely, because they add more flavor to the game. However they should not be one of the most common enemies in the game.

[GmanPro]

I think they were used too frequently in Dark Project. And probably not enough in Metal Age. The undead are good for a scare every now and again. So I say they stay.

[Warcus]

I LOVED the Zombie-missions! They were so scary!

[DarthEnder]

I thought there use in T2 was perfect. There were no levels devoted to the undead, they were always just "oh, I gotta jump though that necromancer's tower, there's gonna be a couple undead in there" or "Oh, I gotta go down into the family crypt, there's gonna be a couple undead down there".

It's as other people said, neutralizing them for good takes up too many resources or makes too much noise. At least, the zombies are. So when there's only a couple in a level, its not so bad, but when the whole level is zombies, you run out of stuff to take care of them all 5 level into the mission.

Haunts actually don't bother me at all. They are creepy as hell, but you can just use a fully charged backstab and kill them in one hit. And they don't get back up again. In that sense, a Haunt is really no different from a guard with a heavy helm.

Puppets though...**** Puppets. Take everything that's bad about zombies and then make them 3 times as hard to kill....


Maybe if holy water was like it was in T3, but cheaper, or if fire arrows were cheap and didn't explode, I'd be okay with zombies. If I could just backstab a zombie, and then while he's on the ground, just pop him with a fire arrow or holy water to destroy his body, and it didn't freakin explode...then zombies would be all right.

It's like, I'd probably hate Iron Beasts too as enemies, because you can't knock them out and killing them involves making a lot of noise, except that they can be taken out with a couple water arrows to the back. Water arrows that are cheap and common. If zombies had a similar inexpensive weakness, I wouldn't mind them either.


Like I mentioned in the gear thread. If T4 used a kind of "make your own items" system where you combined items on the fly. You have your arrows, arrows are, what, 25g? Then you'd have water crystals. Normally 50g, but charge 25g for them now since you have to pay for the arrows separately. Then sell one use vials of holy water for 50g.

Then once your in the level, you bring up your inventory and combine an arrow, a water crystal and a vial of holy water to make a holy water arrow. So for 100g you have an arrow that should take out a zombie in one shot, for good. And no more exploding zombies. Have the zombie ignite with a blue flame and burn until it's a charred corpse and not getting back up again.

If that was a viable option, I wouldn't hate zombies so much.

[ZylonBane]

The reason people hated the undead, was the fact that it turned from a stealth based thieving game, to an undead fighting game.
Yeah... for players who suck. Undead AIs can be sneaked around exactly like human AIs, and the zombies are so freaking slow that you can leave them in the dust just by walking away from them.

[Hypevosa]

Yeah... for players who suck. Undead AIs can be sneaked around exactly like human AIs, and the zombies are so freaking slow that you can leave them in the dust just by walking away from them.

Yes, you could sneak around them, and you could out run them, but only in the open corridors like that of the tombs where the horn of quintus was in thief the dark project... in other scenarios we also had ghost mages thrown at us, or narrow corridors with lots of light and undead roaming around. Ghosts that could throw magic hammers at you, and would persue you endlessly, paralyzing you into a corner or you'd die in 2 shots. Hammerhaunts they at least usually had em in a place you could knock em out if you were clever. Except when going after that one gem in the same cave, where the lights would turn on instantly and spawn a hammer haunt and you were on tile.... that was a ***** move... but luckily fire arrows are awesome. :D

[DarthEnder]

I liked the pirate ghost in T2 on Markham's island also. It's like, even though you can't really sneak past him, or stealth kill him, he almost feels like a boss and you can have a cool swordfight with him, and it's not an issue because it's completely impossible to alert anyone else during that fight because your in this little underwater cave.

[Limesneeker]

The reason people hated the undead, was the fact that it turned from a stealth based thieving game, to an undead fighting game. There should be more genuine thievery in a thief game than scaving the ruins of a tomb or a zombie infested city or citadel. Also, they removed the knockout component which was so integral to the game, now you had to fight, and Garrett is not exactly a paladin who's seasoned in combat with the undead.

Undead should not be removed completely, because they add more flavor to the game. However they should not be one of the most common enemies in the game.

I think I have a cool idea for that:

what about creating a type-of-blackjack-tool which works for undead? Then we could have both: scary undead but instead of undead-fighting action we would still have sneaking-gameplay...of course, the irrational behaviour would make it much more challenging/frightening....

what do you think?

[GmanPro]

Backstabbing zombies worked well enough in all the games.

[Hypevosa]

the holy blackjack of soul cleansing eh? immediately removes evil spirits from a body... I like it, but it doesn't sound like somethin you should have from the get go...

[DarthEnder]

Backstabbing zombies worked well enough in all the games.Till they get back up again 10 seconds later.

Like I said, if I could just burn the body with a flare or cheap vial of holy water, it would be all good.

[GmanPro]

They only get back up if you make too much noise. Otherwise they act like a sleeping npc

[DarthEnder]

I always blackjack sleeping npcs...

[Hypevosa]

I always made sure they were sound asleep too Darth :D

Guard be gone, apply directly to the forehead!

[DF-HellFier]

A little survey I've been make to help developers and concentrate all our character & location "Wishes" in T4: http://thiefvote.t35.com - All voter's have multiple options & vote's to vote for them, but you can vote only once! So think what you want, and check boxes that you choosen...

[1N54N3]

I'm wondering why so many people hate the undead levels in the first game?

People didn't hate the undead in the first game(s) because they sucked, people hated the undead because they were so well done (especially in Shalebrook Cradle or whatever it's called in TDS). I really don't think any other game series like this has ever captured the creepiness nor the actual "immortality" of undead like the Thief series has. That just goes to show how/why Looking Glass (And later Ion Storm which I believe hired most of the Looking Glass team after they shut down) were such great Devs back in the day.


For me they were some of the best levels, and definitely some of the most memorable moments.

You're right, they are :)

[Tatyana's Flowers]

Love the undead...they scare me too much :)

[BoldEnglishman]

I also loved the undead levels, as it forced the player to think on their feet, to adapt. Regarding the first game, you can apply the same strategy to almost every single enemy:

- Human guards, knockout
- Servants, knockout
- Ape Beasts, knockout
- Craymen, knockout
- Mages, knockout
- Burricks, knockout
- Apparitions, backstab
- Hammer Haunts, backstab

The strategy is exactly the same. You blackjack your first guard, and then your set. The only real difficulty in games like Thief II was probably the distance between you and the AI and what sort of floor you were crossing... and even then, you can run around and make as much noise as you want, have 5 or 7 guards following you... then just flashbomb them and knock every single one of them out.

Yet suddenly, with zombies, players were forced to adapt. This strategy, which works for everyone else apart from Fire Elementals and the Trickster himself, will no longer work, and part of what made the zombies so interesting is the fact that sometimes you will no longer have the 'comfort' of being by yourself. Just as people knock out sleeping NPCs, it gives them that 'comfort factor', whereby once all the guards and such have been disposed of, you can exhale, relax, do whatever you want basically. Yet, if you do not have the proper resources, the zombies take this away - keep you on your feet. I thought one of the things that made Thief so great was the tension, and the zombies certainly added to that tension!

Speaking of equipment, I was always able to dispose of every zombie I encountered in the first game. Just gotta make sure you use your Holy Water at the right time, then just blow up the rest with Fire and Flash.

[VIKTORIA]

Yeah... for players who suck. Undead AIs can be sneaked around exactly like human AIs, and the zombies are so freaking slow that you can leave them in the dust just by walking away from them.

QFT. :cool:

[ZylonBane]

They only get back up if you make too much noise. Otherwise they act like a sleeping npc
Proximity, not noise. Lure them somewhere out-of-the-way, then knock them down and go about your business.

[Pangalactic]

My beef with TDP's undead treatment wasn't that it had 'undead levels' so to speak...but just too many of them, and all bunched together. When a thief game has two undead levels in a row you start to get bored with it.

I've always thought the way the undead were utilized in T2 was much better as well...but I still think that T4 should have a good undead level or two for old time's sake...they were a lot of fun in their own way. As long as you still feel like you're a Thief, not an exorcist. Maybe a good treasure-hunting booby-traped Bonehoard-esque level, and one horror Cradle-esque level. Definitely not one after the other though.


I liked the pirate ghost in T2 on Markham's island also. It's like, even though you can't really sneak past him, or stealth kill him, he almost feels like a boss and you can have a cool swordfight with him, and it's not an issue because it's completely impossible to alert anyone else during that fight because your in this little underwater cave.

That was my favorite undead moment the entire Thief series!

[Iceblade]

Not in T1....all zombies go done but don't stay that way. T2 FMs, though, I would use this tactic to great effect...esp. in the Trickster's castle. Just a little aside, how conservative were you guys with resources. A lot of times, I would try to keep 2 or 3 zombies with one mine or firearrow if possible. Three for two holywater arrow specials worked great. Flashbombs weren't so easy, though. I guess for those have two or three ready and gather around 3-5 zombies and a haunt or two and drop the bomb(s). Clean out the rest with fire or water then. I love being Rambo Thief.....come on Craymen and treebeasts I'll take you on. Seriously, I have taken on two or three craymen at once...what dimwits and a few times I have been successful (ie no damage) taken on treebeasts from the front (one-on-one mind you). I played too much of cardia's missions and undead T2 missions...gave me made skills (okay I keep behind the enemy most of the time when fighting alerted enemies)

[Master Taffer]

I've always loved the undead and found them an essential part of the Thief universe. I've never understood why everyone hates them so much, especially since levels featuring undead enemies were some of the best missions in the series (IE, Return to the Haunted Cathedral, The Cradle.) and fan missions (Bloodstone Prison, The Inverted Manse).

[DarthEnder]

I'll tell you this, I hated the Bonehoard so much that it made me quit playing Thief the first time I tried to play through the game.

I didn't pick it up again until after I played through Thief 2 a few years later.

That goddamn giant chamber at the bottom with like the 15 zombies in it...man...there's just not enough holy water and water arrows in the world to make me not hate that place.

[Master Taffer]

I'll tell you this, I hated the Bonehoard so much that it made me quit playing Thief the first time I tried to play through the game.

I didn't pick it up again until after I played through Thief 2 a few years later.

That goddamn giant chamber at the bottom with like the 15 zombies in it...man...there's just not enough holy water and water arrows in the world to make me not hate that place.

Just run around the zombies. They're slow, stupid and seem to give up chase faster than any other creature in the game.

[GmanPro]

I also hated that level. But not because of zombies. That place was just a pain to navigate. Just like half the levels in Dark Project.

Metal Age was a vast improvement to the level design.

[TeoRocker]

The undead are awesome. Personally, whenever I finished a "scary" level I always felt relieved and glad I got rid of it. But that was, in a weird way, a great thing.

They also offered variety in the gameplay, breaking the monotony.

[Jables_Kage]

the zombies where ace in TDS especially the sound they made! creepy...

[Master Taffer]

The zombies in Deadly Shadows kinda let me down visually. They just looked like starved elderly folk rather than walking, rotting corpses.

[Espion]

The zombies in Deadly Shadows kinda let me down visually. They just looked like starved elderly folk rather than walking, rotting corpses.

Lol... Maybe they were, you evil S.O.B. ;)

[Master Taffer]

Lol... Maybe they were, you evil S.O.B. ;)

Ah never touched em, consarnit!

[Skarsnik]

- Apparitions, backstab


Or you could just sneak up on them and blackjack them to death since they never got the time to recover..

[Master Taffer]

Or you could just sneak up on them and blackjack them to death since they never got the time to recover..

Talk about beating a dead ...Hammer...

[Psychomorph]

I hated the undead missions in the thief games, but I like the conept of the dead, spooky stuff.

Reason I really hated the zombies was the inability to incapacitate them, seriously, one slash and the head is off and if the creatures body still lives, it will helplessly bounce around on the ground, like a stranded fish (you need a head to keep balance when walking on two legs).
Weapons must be much less effective against the undead (feed it with arrows and cuts and it still walks), but affecting it by removing the head, limbs or breaking bones MUST affect it very much, it will not be able to walk anymore, will crawl, or do whatever it is still capable of, but not ressurect totally unharmed (unless by invulnerability magic).

[Skaruts]

I looooved the undead in T1 (cant remember them from T2). I loved the way they were almost silent, except when they would talk to each other in ancient english. That totally made it up for me.

I think, for a new sequel, the undead should be mantained. The undead are always a part of any medievil and somewhat fantastic story. They are a part of a tradition, in both terms of storyline and character's cultures. Plus they are a good way of resting from the monotonous city watch and guards.

But I would prefer if there would be just one or two main-plot missions with them, and some more optional ones with them, to make up for who likes it and who doesn't. Who likes it will certainly be wanting to explore that basement, catacomb or ancient fortress, even if it's optional. For who doesn't like it, they would go through 1 mission with a non-tiredsome amount of undead and dificulty, and be off with it in no time.

I loved them all, except in T3. The hammer's ghosts from T1 were simply amazingly fun, scary and memorable,... the growling zombies in T3 weren't that much. Imo.
Probly cuz I think ghosts are more scarier and less cliché than zombies. And probly cuz ghosts can die. They are already.

[Maethius]

I think the undead added an element to the game, not just as a threat undeflatable by normal means, but also to the storyline. The implementation of the undead in T2X was great... I loved that you could cut them apart, not only for effect, but because you could limit the danger somewhat. I would say keep them, but refine them. Place undead where it makes sense, use them to augment fear and tell the story, and perhaps vary them a bit. Skeletons have a place, zombies another, haunts and spirits can all be useful. A spirit would be more frightening if it wasn't restricted by walls and doors, or it illuminated the dark. What if the undead didn't rely on sight in some cases? Or if the more wounded Garrett would attract ghouls or zombies from a greater distance than an less wounded Garrett.

[huzi73]

MAKE A POLL!ZOMFG!The entire concept behind the undead,was to unnerve the player,make him feel vulnerable,outnumbered,alone,afraid,especially in the Bonehoard and Old city,the feeling that you were in an ancient,forgotten place.Making you feel like you just wanted to get out of there!Oh the sense of relief I felt when I heard the voice of the first Hammerite in TDP!CIVILISATION!WHEW!Thank god im out of the zombie area!Id like at least 20% of my mission quota to be undead based.(slightly less than TDP,but MUCH more than TMA/TDS).

[morty343]

For sure. If they changed it in T3 due to a violence rating thing, I say who cares. They'll still make huge $ anyway, and won't look like they rolled over. It was such a disappointment the first time I watched a zombie "dissolve" in T3.

[hellwalker]

Blowing zombies are classic, they must return in Thi4f

[jtr7]

Very satisfying sound and animation to see them blow to bits!

[1N54N3]

Or you could just sneak up on them and blackjack them to death since they never got the time to recover..

For real, we all know undead take extra bludgeoning damage anyway :D

[ToMegaTherion]

The main problem is that the supernatural levels mainly had pretty dubious design that didn't fit so well with the Thief concept. It's worth noting that the levels of this type that seem most popular are Return to the Cathedral and Shalebridge Cradle... the two levels of this type that had "proper" Thief level design.

[morty343]

All right, apparently some mod, in his infinite wisdom, exercised the authority to merge a thread I started, titled "Make the zombies blow up again!!!" with this semi-related thread.

If this is the way the Eidos mods operate, don't be surprised if the developers get a garbled picture of what Thief fans valued in the former games, and what sort of changes/additions could make the game even better.

[pha]

You can expect many new threads merged into existing ones just because they have common keywords.

[Master Taffer]

All right, apparently some mod, in his infinite wisdom, exercised the authority to merge a thread I started, titled "Make the zombies blow up again!!!" with this semi-related thread.

If this is the way the Eidos mods operate, don't be surprised if the developers get a garbled picture of what Thief fans valued in the former games, and what sort of changes/additions could make the game even better.

You're just a cheery peach, ain'tcha?

Apparently there was an Undead level intended for Thief II Gold before Looking Glass closed its doors and never released it. It would have featured the Necromancers, and evil offshoot of the Hand Brotherhood and feature some old and new undead critters to continue unnerve the player. Would have been an awesome level.

[RoyalTaffer]

Hi guys,

For me they were some of the best levels, and definitely some of the most memorable moments. I remember crapping myself when the first corpse leapt to it's feet. Panicking when it didn't go down from a blackjack attack (obviously but I thought I'd try it anyway). Crapping myself again when it sprang back to life after a sword attack.

Suddenly I couldn't clear an area of it's "guards" reliably and be sure that they'd remain incapacitated. It created a very real aprehension and weariness as I played.

Then of course there was the satisfaction of finding the holy water fonts and finally blowing the damn things to pieces :D

~E

Wow... You just made me realise how damn much I loved those levels. Cheers!:D

[morty343]

Wow... You just made me realise how damn much I loved those levels. Cheers!:D

Yup. No "Undead Discrimination" from me. I LIKE their role in the Thief series. Which is why I was annoyed that my original thread, requesting to bring back explosive zombie deaths, was rolled into this thread which seems to be about re-evaluating their place in the Thief world as a whole.

Bottom line, I really disliked the lame "dissolving" zombies in T3. But in general, the Thief undead levels are some of the most nerve-rattling I've ever played, and are necessary to the game.

Cheers.

[Vae]

Yup. No "Undead Discrimination" from me. I LIKE their role in the Thief series. Which is why I was annoyed that my original thread, requesting to bring back explosive zombie deaths, was rolled into this thread which seems to be about re-evaluating their place in the Thief world as a whole.

Bottom line, I really disliked the lame "dissolving" zombies in T3. But in general, the Thief undead levels are some of the most nerve-rattling I've ever played, and are necessary to the game.

Cheers.

I couldn't agree more.

The Undead are GREAT (except for T3 zombies). Make them unexpected and varied and you will get some of the best THIEF experiences ever.

[Master Taffer]

I often find it funny that some people complain about the undead because they require different tactics to deal with than humans, but at the same time will praise Karras's robots for the exact same reason they condemn undead....

[Vae]

Yes, the inconsistency is a disturbing dichotomy ...ah the uninitiated. ;)

[Master Taffer]

The constant kvetching does grow tiresome after awhile.

[Vae]

Indeed it does...but let us keep an eye on the greater purpose and forgive them, for they know not what they do.

[DarthEnder]

I derive great amusement from the manner in which the two of you apply your online thesauruses in an attempt to appear superior to the other posters here.Apparently there was an Undead level intended for Thief II Gold before Looking Glass closed its doors and never released it. It would have featured the Necromancers, and evil offshoot of the Hand Brotherhood and feature some old and new undead critters to continue unnerve the player. Would have been an awesome level.That actually does sound pretty cool. Mainly because such a level would be a mix of human and undead opponents instead of just thirty zombies.

[Master Taffer]

I derive great amusement from the manner in which the two of you apply your online thesauruses in an attempt to appear superior to the other posters here.

As a matter of fact, my New Years resolution this year was to learn a new word daily. I just like the English vocabulary, and can assure you it has nothing to do with me wanting to feel "superior."

It's actually been quite fun so far. You should give it a try.

[DarthEnder]

Yes, expanding your vocabulary is a perfectly noble goal but I hardly think that the forum needs to watch Vae and yourself jerk each other off over it over the course of several content-free posts while acting smug to no one in particular.

[Master Taffer]

Yes, expanding your vocabulary is a perfectly noble goal but I hardly think that the forum needs to watch Vae and yourself jerk each other off over it over the course of several content-free posts while acting smug to no one in particular.

And it also doesn't need multiple posts of you argueing that we have a false sense of superiority. If you've got a beef with me or Vae, take it to private messages. Otherwise, you can just deal with like a sensible person and ignore it.

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

Those brain eating shufflers need to stay down where they belong. I can't understand a word they say with that "ugghghooooohhughhhhh" rot-face talk.

At least they don't try to drink from our fountains.

[Master Taffer]

Those brain eating shufflers need to stay down where they belong. I can't understand a word they say with that "ugghghooooohhughhhhh" rot-face talk.

At least they don't try to drink from our fountains.

Sure, regulate them to second class citizens. But one day, they will have a leader and you will see that zombies and humans were created equal!

And I STILL won't drink from the same fountains as them. That's just disgusting.

[Vae]

Anyway, I am personally for equal rights for the undead as a matter of social justice. :rolleyes:

[DarthEnder]

And it also doesn't need multiple posts of you argueing that we have a false sense of superiority. If you've got a beef with me or Vae, take it to private messages. Otherwise, you can just deal with like a sensible person and ignore it.The exact same thing could be said for the entire post you just made if you want to play it like that. You are as capable of ignoring my complaining about your ****posting as I am of ignoring your ****posting.

[Ravenwood]

DarthEnder? Grow up. Honestly.

He said to take it to private messaging, so stop trying to drag this argument out on the forum. Plus, he's showing worlds more maturity than you by expanding his vocabulary past petty cursing.

[Vae]

DarthEnder? Grow up. Honestly.

He said to take it to private messaging, so stop trying to drag this argument out on the forum. Plus, he's showing worlds more maturity than you by expanding his vocabulary past petty cursing.

Yes DarthEnder, stop posting and go to your room! You can come back when when you start acting like a reasonable adult.

[DarthEnder]

Thank you both for continuing the argument in the forum instead of taking it to PM's like he suggested. I appreciate you invalidating his point for me.

[GmanPro]

Just ignore them. They thrive off of attention

[EMCEE]

I also think that" the golden mean" was found in unpached T2: undeads were only in abandoned places in many levels. So, there wasn't stages full of zombeis, but they were unfogotten and made the game more frighteningly.Maybe it is good to make one level whith a lot of undead (such as ship in T3), but not 2 addict with this))

[Taffer17]

The reason people hated the undead, was the fact that it turned from a stealth based thieving game, to an undead fighting game. There should be more genuine thievery in a thief game than scaving the ruins of a tomb or a zombie infested city or citadel. Also, they removed the knockout component which was so integral to the game, now you had to fight, and Garrett is not exactly a paladin who's seasoned in combat with the undead.

Undead should not be removed completely, because they add more flavor to the game. However they should not be one of the most common enemies in the game.



umm, in down in the bonehoard, you're robbing catacombs. seems like thievery to me. idk but to me, graverobbing is just as much being a thief as picking pockets or breaking into museums or banks. and since ur robbing graves you need some kinda excitement and challenge so in come the undead. the undead fit perfectly into the story. they weren't outta place at all. what was outta place for me was the bank mission in T2. he freakin broke into a giant vault! for a master lockpicker i dont see why he didnt steal as much loot as he possibly could from there. instead he went straight for a recording. i'm not saying not to go for that but the fact that ur in a giant vault and they dont have u rob it, thats a tad bit ridiculous dont you think? as cool as the mechanist storyline was, the fact that garrett played such a big part of it as well as a part with the sheriff seems less like it fits into the storyline and into garrett's personality. at least in T1, he helps out the hammerites because he kinda has a bone to pick with the trickster (you know, plucking out his eye and whatnot). i dont see how the undead DON'T fit into the thief world and storyline as well as anything else does. anyway, they're only 4 missions (if i can remember correctly) in the three games. for those who dont like those kinda missions, so what? i wasnt exactly a fan of the first mission of thief 2 or of the trail of blood mission, or especially the two mask missions towards the end of T2. i still played through them and took them for what they were because i knew other people liked them. and no i would not say to avoid missions like them in the future because they all make thief what it is

[Hypevosa]

"I do agree with the others, that the haunted levels are part of the surrealism of thief, and they are some of the best levels... but there is a point at which it turns from thief to survival horror....

Assuming there are at least 14 fully made levels, I say at least 1 has to be a haunted one like the cradle or bonehoard... but at very MOST 3. Garrett would not be raiding every tomb he heard about. Why risk my ass around a bunch of undead who only stop for good when I blow them up, when I can simply get around incompetent guards who I can knockout with a little tap on the head? I don't think he'd be risking his ass as often as he did in the first game (where he learned he didn't like risking his ass...)"

I copied that from the other thread. I was just explaining the logic I heard from other people, and I understand where they're coming from. I personally didn't mind the undead, I just sympathize with the others saying that he's thief not tomb raider, and should probably be more focused on raiding fat royal peoples' mansions and castles than on finding stuff that dead people used to own.

[Master Taffer]

"I do agree with the others, that the haunted levels are part of the surrealism of thief, and they are some of the best levels... but there is a point at which it turns from thief to survival horror....

Assuming there are at least 14 fully made levels, I say at least 1 has to be a haunted one like the cradle or bonehoard... but at very MOST 3. Garrett would not be raiding every tomb he heard about. Why risk my ass around a bunch of undead who only stop for good when I blow them up, when I can simply get around incompetent guards who I can knockout with a little tap on the head? I don't think he'd be risking his ass as often as he did in the first game (where he learned he didn't like risking his ass...)"

I copied that from the other thread. I was just explaining the logic I heard from other people, and I understand where they're coming from. I personally didn't mind the undead, I just sympathize with the others saying that he's thief not tomb raider, and should probably be more focused on raiding fat royal peoples' mansions and castles than on finding stuff that dead people used to own.

I'de be curious to know those people's opinions on Karras's robots.

As for Garrett putting himself in harms way, I think that it would depend on what the objective was. Garrett went down in the Bonehoard because he was seriously boned on the Bafford job with Cutty kicking it, and he didn't have any other jobs at the time. The Horn of Quintis was valuable enough to warrent the risk. And with the Haunted Cathedral and Return of the Haunted Cathedral, Garrett saw a serious enough pay in those jobs that he could retire from thievery in general, so he thought the reward outweighed the risk there as well.

The Cradle was entered because Garrett needed information ont eh Hag to save his skin, and this was the only lead he truly had. His life was in danger, the entire Order of the Key out for his blood. He needed the evidence or he wouldn't last long. So I think Garrett will put hismelf in haunted areas if the reward is worth it. If it's profitable, Garrett will be there rubbing his hands greedily.

[Hypevosa]

I'de be curious to know those people's opinions on Karras's robots.

As for Garrett putting himself in harms way, I think that it would depend on what the objective was. Garrett went down in the Bonehoard because he was seriously boned on the Bafford job with Cutty kicking it, and he didn't have any other jobs at the time. The Horn of Quintis was valuable enough to warrent the risk. And with the Haunted Cathedral and Return of the Haunted Cathedral, Garrett saw a serious enough pay in those jobs that he could retire from thievery in general, so he thought the reward outweighed the risk there as well.

The Cradle was entered because Garrett needed information ont eh Hag to save his skin, and this was the only lead he truly had. His life was in danger, the entire Order of the Key out for his blood. He needed the evidence or he wouldn't last long. So I think Garrett will put hismelf in haunted areas if the reward is worth it. If it's profitable, Garrett will be there rubbing his hands greedily.

Agreed, he always has to be going after something that more than warrants the risk of getting zombified.

[DarthEnder]

umm, in down in the bonehoard, you're robbing catacombs. seems like thievery to me. idk but to me, graverobbing is just as much being a thief as picking pockets or breaking into museums or banks.I think it's more like aggressive archeology.

I mean you could argue that since all the people who owned the things are dead, it's not even really stealing.

[GmanPro]

Only a master thief could get at the treasure hidden down below. Its dangerous work, but if your good, the rewards are great. Think of it as a challenge. Your not going to let a bunch of dead dudes beat you right?

[Master Taffer]

I think it's more like aggressive archeology.

I mean you could argue that since all the people who owned the things are dead, it's not even really stealing.

It could be considered archeology, except he immediately pawn it for some serious coin.

[DarthEnder]

It could be considered archeology, except he immediately pawn it for some serious coin.I'm betting the Museum gets more of its exhibits from fences than it does from archeological digs.

[Hypevosa]

I'm betting the Museum gets more of its exhibits from fences than it does from archeological digs.

That wouldn't surprise me at all, and I'd laugh my arse out of my seat if I saw the horn of quintus in the museum of the thief universe... and laugh even harder if I was able to swipe it for a second time!

[DarthEnder]

Well, you might as well start laughing now because that pretty much IS exactly what happened with The Eye.

[Master Taffer]

Well, you might as well start laughing now because that pretty much IS exactly what happened with The Eye.

How the Eye ende dup in the museum was never really established. I would have thought the Eye would have been locked away in a Keeper or Hammr vault after the Dark Project failed, but lo and behold it was in the museum.

On the other side of that, the Kurshok Crown did end up in the museum after Garrett pawned it off. But how Garrett's fence pawns these things off is likely not Garrett's concern. He's just concerned witht he fence paying him.

[huzi73]

How the Eye ended up in the museum was never really established. I would have thought the Eye would have been locked away in a Keeper or Hammr vault after the Dark Project failed, but lo and behold it was in the museum.

On the other side of that, the Kurshok Crown did end up in the museum after Garrett pawned it off. But how Garrett's fence pawns these things off is likely not Garrett's concern. He's just concerned witht he fence paying him.

My biggest gripe with TDS,was that in making Gamall such an epic badass,they used artifacts,the eye being one of them,as weapons being created for the sole purpose of one day defeating the Gamall abomination.so in theory,the other 4 artifacts wield just as much power as the eye,and this sucks because it totally watered down the ''power'' which I always imagined the eye to have.It basically made the Pagans and Hammers some sort of offshoot with no real background since their most precious and valued artifacts were infact not belonging to their gods,but rather part of some higher purpose(defeating the most terrible and horribly conceived image of the lame ass boogeyman ever...)

[Aristofiles]

have always hated the undead missions in all T games. Dont get me wrong, the cradle was a awsome mission but it dont fit into the kind of game i think thief should be. As soon as you try to go into horror and scary games there are tons of them out there that are way better. Why make a extremly pale copy of silent hill when you can meke the best stealt game?

[DarthEnder]

Hammers some sort of offshoot with no real background since their most precious and valued artifacts were infact not belonging to their gods,but rather part of some higher purpose(defeating the most terrible and horribly conceived image of the lame ass boogeyman ever...)What makes you think they did not in fact belong to their gods?

My understanding was not that the Keepers made these 5 artifacts, but that they took the 5 most powerful artifacts they could find and created this master glyph around them.

It's like a horocrux for you Harry Potter fans.


Also, what the hell is a Jacknall?

[Master Taffer]

My biggest gripe with TDS,was that in making Gamall such an epic badass,they used artifacts,the eye being one of them,as weapons being created for the sole purpose of one day defeating the Gamall abomination.so in theory,the other 4 artifacts wield just as much power as the eye,and this sucks because it totally watered down the ''power'' which I always imagined the eye to have.It basically made the Pagans and Hammers some sort of offshoot with no real background since their most precious and valued artifacts were infact not belonging to their gods,but rather part of some higher purpose(defeating the most terrible and horribly conceived image of the lame ass boogeyman ever...)

The Sentients were used in the Final Glyph, not necessarily made for it. Don't forget that the Kurshok crown was given to the Kurshok's as a gift from the Trickster. The Trickster then sunk their Citadel underground when their king thought himself greater than the Woodsie Lord, and I sincerely doubt the Kurshoks were walking around on the surface while the City was being constructed over their heads. It's very likely that the Eye is an ancient sentience that has enigmatic powers that havn't been revealed yet. The Keepers selected it with the other artifacts as the keys to create the Final Glyph.

Also, the Final Glyph wasn't created for solely stopping Gamall. It was created by the Ancient Keepers as a way of erasing all glyph magic from the City. The Ancient Keepers put it place because they foresaw that the future Keepers would lose their balance and start using the glyphs for corrupt purposes. Artemus sent Garrett to activate this because it was the only way to stop Gamall, as she had become an unstoppable juggernaut at this point. It is also likely that the Keepers truly had lost their balance, believing themselves to be controlling the glyphs rather than following them.

By activating the glyph, Garrett restored balance to the City, thus making him the "One True Keeper." Therefore, there would be no glyph magic in Thief 4. Glyph magic is gone for the rest of times, and the Keepers can no longer read into the future as they had. If the Keepers survive, it will be using traditional spying methods rather than glyphs.

[fayfuya]

Well, some guys like lots of undead and ghosts, scary missions and stuff,
and some guys (they aren't cowards) prefer a bit less undead and ghosts.
I liked the undead and scary creatures quantity in TDS,
if Thief 4 is gonna have that quantity of scary creatures like in TDS, it would be great.
Abysmal Gale and the Cradle were great, 2 maps of undead is good.
When i'm talking about "scary creatures" i'm not talking about the pagan's Beasts or the statues of the Hag, but only for undead and ghosts, or puppets :D .

[Hamadriyad]

Exactly. Especally in graveyards. And I want to see hammer haunts.
And absolutely there should be a creepy mission.(at least one)

[gpagonewest]

Ghosts, I hope so. Undead I am not personally bothered about.

The chain rattling ghosts from T1/T2 were great, very unnerving to hear before you knew where they were.

[Hamadriyad]

The chain rattling ghosts from T1/T2 were great, very unnerving to hear before you knew where they were.

Definitely.

[kabatta]

Zombies from TDP an TMA. Alltough it was satisfactory to chop off the limbs of the zombies in T2X.

[Necros]

I liked the undead and scary creatures quantity in TDS,
if Thief 4 is gonna have that quantity of scary creatures like in TDS, it would be great.
Abysmal Gale and the Cradle were great, 2 maps of undead is good.
This. :thumb:

[fayfuya]

Sadly, i haven't played T1 or T2 but i've seen some videos and the zombies there were more scary than in TDS...funny :D
And if i'm not wrong, the spiders i've seen fighting in the streets had a human voice :D
maybe i disheard correctly

[jtr7]

Nothing sounds like the spiders. I have strongly suspected you have not played the older titles. It would be greatly appreciated and constructive of you to not share your opinion on them. You have no frame of reference to base an opinion on them, or on those of us who have, until you've played through them more than once each, and at least once each on Expert.

[kaekaelyn]

No, you've probably just watched some videos by that guy who likes to Dromed the non-human enemies and give them human voices. Haven't seen it with spiders, but I have seen it with zombies.

[Deathologist]

It should have some but the devs should definitly not over-do the use of undead. Otherwise their significance is reduced.

[jtr7]

They should be annoyances, and they should be where they are half-expected to be, and clustered (as in, more than one or two) near Hammer-built places, as with the trilogy, and near scenes of crimes of passion or war. The City is plagued by them, and they keep rising up. Without the balance, I wonder how necromancy would move into that vacuum.

[Apprentice101]

I really hope it does. Supernatural, undead and creepy things were the best missions from all frachise.

[jtr7]

There's an annoying percentage of taffers that don't like fantasy in their fantasy genre (lol), but one of the things I love about Thief is that a lot of what happens in the game could never happen in real life, and Thief has never been blamed for causing a person to go rob somebody (maybe they were so well-trained they didn't get caught?). The fantasy and discouragement of wanton violence by the game itself makes it unreproducible in real life, and that's a plus.

[fayfuya]

Yes you are right jtr7, but i would like to hear some opinion from Eidos, i think Viktora and something like nete, i can't remember his name excuse me :D are Eidos workers or something like that, may i hear your opinion please?

[jtr7]

I'm sorry, what are you asking, fayfuya? :)

[AbysmalGale]

I'm sorry, what are you asking, fayfuya? :)

I think he wants to hear opinions on the subject from the forum moderators. However, if they knew anything they wouldn't reveal it at this point.

[jtr7]

Yeah, they wouldn't know anything right now, and they won't be able to say for a couple of years. Things change during play-testing, beta-testing, and then focus groups. WAAAYY too early for any solid information.

[AbysmalGale]

Back to the subject:
I was not a fan of the creepy missions, so for me one or two are more than enough. I liked the solution of creepiness presence in TMA. Never entire levels with undeads or ghosts, but rather a few of those elements thrown in here and there in several "normal" levels.

You could find:


a couple of zombies in Trace the Courier

two haunts in Evesdropping

a couple of zombies in Blackmail (and a haunt as well if I remember this correctly)

a ghost in Precious Cargo

a ghost in Casing the Joint/Masks

hidden zombies in a tower in Life of the Party

tree beasts in Trail of Blood

dancing zombies in framed (though they were not dangerous)


...and so on and so forth. I think that was an excellent solution to the creepiness issue. One wasn't always forced to interact with creepy creatures, but could seek those areas if wished.

[jtr7]

Never let the player forget The City is plagued with necromancy...but don't keep rubbing it in.

[EMCEE]

This theme already was disscust in other topic...

[fayfuya]

I gave my friend my Thief 3 CD (original) to play it for a week, he just started the Cradle, he's so scared :D
The Cradle is so damn scary, but i like this, the most scary map should be in the end of the game, becase it gives you more moral to finish it, and if there are kids playing it, they will be so scared of that map they would stop playing, just like as i did when i was 10 :D .
Anyone else think the most scary map should be at the end of the game?

[jtr7]

This theme already was disscust in other topic...

Correct. And not only this topic, and for many many times in the last 10+ years.

[DarthEnder]

Thief 2 did it best. Occasional undead in places where it made sense. And Garrett never went any place that was overrun with zombies.

[jtr7]

Yeah, he didn't go anywhere in the control of the Hammerites, or where Hammerites had a strong presence. Zombies are found in numbers wherever Hammerites have had a strong presence.

[ToMegaTherion]

A lot of people really like Return to the Cathedral and Cradle (even among those who generally don't like the woo missions) so I think maybe Metal Age was slightly light on this sort of thing.

[esme]

I gave my friend my Thief 3 CD (original) to play it for a week, he just started the Cradle, he's so scared :D
The Cradle is so damn scary, but i like this, the most scary map should be in the end of the game, becase it gives you more moral to finish it, and if there are kids playing it, they will be so scared of that map they would stop playing, just like as i did when i was 10 :D .
Anyone else think the most scary map should be at the end of the game?

10 .... 10! :eek:


it's rated 12+ you shouldn't have been playing it at all



;):D

[lyssyder]

I LOVED the undead levels of the Thief series.

This for some points :

1) they were providing a break/change from the other missions
2) they were damn scary
3) they added flavor to a game that is dark and gothic, it is !
4) they were hard to kill or near to impossible to kill ; )

I love hard tough games and I always play them immediately from the
hardest level possible, if not I don't enjoy them.
The zombies were great, in fact they were so scary and with their impenetrability
to mortal weapons they were even more scary.
I love to feel/be almost powerless for a while in a game, it brings you back to
HUMILTY mode. We are too used to PS style games where you blast all in your path
with a variety of weapons.

For example in The Call of Chthulu Dark Corners of the Earth, you get caught by
the Deep Ones and they take away all your weapons and throw you in a cell.
Then you are able to escape from your prison but for a part of the mission you are
without ANY weapons. Hehehe. THAT is scary !!! And then, when you get back
all your equip, after a long while, what a satisfaction to blow their damn fish heads to smithereens.

Running, hiding from the zombies.....what a scare !! Especially in the vault of the Hoard......
They are standing again, ohh nooo, oh my God, where to run, nooo this way is closed, aahhhhhh
aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....
And what about Return to the Cathedral, with those rattling chains, funebrial moans,
spine chilling sounds....

The scariest thing is not to have 100 enemies around and blast them with plasma cannons,
it is to kill something only to have it come back to life in a few seconds, then panic ensues =)

As already said, to be effective, the undead stuff must NOT be present through the ALL game.
Just a spot here and there makes you more unsecure and scared.
Humilty mode is great. ; )

[Fatherwoodsie]

i agree

[LordGervasius]

undead are a necessary evil. I hate undead missions but thats kind of the point. Faced with a crypt full of undead in real life(yeah right), nobody in their right mind would want to enter. They are scary. As long as its not overdone I think its a necessity to have undead in a thief game.

[DarthEnder]

A lot of people really like Return to the Cathedral and Cradle (even among those who generally don't like the woo missions) so I think maybe Metal Age was slightly light on this sort of thing.Well, there was supposed to be a level in Thief 2 Gold where he raided some necromancer towers. So that probably would have filled the quota.

[astridelf]

The zombies in Thief1 had their good place in the game,dont remove them,ghosts also they really missing in TDS,Thief 1 was the perfect part from the series.

[jtr7]

TDS was also missing biting fly swarms.


A new idea: Have biting flies come from maggots in corpses that became undead. A zombie stumbling around with flies coming out of holes all over it's body; an eye-socket, an ear, a missing cheek, the trachea, a hole in the ribs, the guts...; and swirling around like the one zombie in Cragscleft that had a "bug halo". :D


Fiction-wise, they would be undead flies that attack the living for the same reasons as other undead, and not be able to reproduce, so they don't spread, and they would be destroyable with everything that destroys zombies.

[FriendlyStranger]

Fiction-wise, they would be undead flies that attack the living for the same reasons as other undead, and not be able to reproduce, so they don't spread, and they would be destroyable with everything that destroys zombies.

What a badass necromancer did this work, reviving thousands of flies... man this man oughta got time ^^

[BG_HHaunt]

Undead missions are my favorite missions in thief (I'm not a fan of massive undead slaughter games though) ,but I didn't like the fast and quiet puppets from the Cradle.I prefer the zombies in thief 1 and 2.

[FriendlyStranger]

I also liked the way TMA handled things - I like zombie movies, I somehow liked the zombies in T1, but the "grounded" style of TMA was just right for me. If you use something too much like haunts, you get used to it and that ends the fun.

[jtr7]

What a badass necromancer did this work, reviving thousands of flies... man this man oughta got time ^^

No necromancer needed. No badassery required, O Sarcastic One. The ol' Thief world does it all for us.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/BugHaloZombie.jpg

[Exit]

I think those zombie things are good, but if all of then just could not attack you... Or just could not see you.. Those hounted places and things like that just freaks me out...
But that just my thoughts....

P.S. sorry for my English, I'm from Lithuania :)

[xAcerbusx]

Undead themselves aren't so bad. It's the levels they're in that have always annoyed me.

'Down in the Bonehoard' never fails to confuse the crap out of me. Even with my compass out, I get turned around terribly. Also... there's just so many undead that they stop being scary and just... get in your way and start to annoy you.

[Namdrol]

Yeh, I have to draw a map when playing Down in the Bonehoard.

[jtr7]

There's no point in undead that aren't dangerous. Or maybe they're supposed to be set dressing?

[Vae]

Yes, the undead should be dangerous, and elaborate crypts and caverns should be complicated and confusing...you wouldn't feel in complete control and always have your bearings...that's part of the immersive experience of being in such a place...:)

[jtr7]

And I don't know if printing these out would be helpful or not:
http://www.thief-thecircle.com/guides/keeperchapel/Bonehoard/lootmap.asp

:p:p

[cGREGgo]

I hate'em. I hate everything that's not human. :nut:

[jtr7]

Good. That's the point.

[Herr_Garrett]

I hate'em. I hate everything that's not human. :nut:

What, dogs and trees and houses and computers and the other 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the world as well?

[Vae]

I am personally against such widespread hatred...:mad:

Like it or not, the undead and creatures other than humans are part of the THIEF universe.

[jtr7]

Exploding zombies and the steamy squishy sounds are quite popular! :D

[cGREGgo]

What, dogs and trees and houses and computers and the other 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the world as well?

Yes :mad2:


Trees: questionable... :nut:

[Namdrol]

I knew it, you're a big soft tree hugger at heart. :eek:

http://www.johnsteins.com/Journal/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/tree_hugger.jpg

:thumb:

[glyph07]

...zombies and undead didn't provoke particular excitement in the game, I always liked the idea of Garrett facing this creeping side of life. The problem is that I never found them particularly dangerous and most of all not particularly difficult to bypass.

Now, here's a possibly very silly idea that might have been already proposed but I haven't found a sign and of whose I don't know the technical implications.

Could zombies work on "smell" too like the Ringrates of the LOR? Say that they can "sniff" Garrett from a certain distance even if he's perfectly hidden from any light source...would that introduce a good enough difficult to overcome?

Garrett might have a potion to take off his odors ...haugh...sorry I was distracted by a scene from Trick'r Treat...hm...awful...if necessary in substitution of someone rarely used...on my part, for instance, I try to use them as little as possible and certainly I never found necessary use the one from TDP to fall down slowly and the one from TDS that make enemies slips (actually that's not at all a potion sorry, but it's still a tool that Garrett might use and in my opinion he should have as little as possible of them).

[cGREGgo]

I knew it, you're a big soft tree hugger at heart. :eek:


LOL :wave:

[GhostStealth]

I like how part of us moan and complain about the undead aspect, that is the point of it in my opinion, this is why I've grown to like the undead aspect so much, because its not found in real life and adds to the tension.

I like having undeads in a great way to break you out of zomfort zone and try to think outside of it, I like how they add to the mystery which is part of thief world, and anything remotely related to Book of Ash gets me very excited, what does that say about me? :o

[Herr_Garrett]

...anything remotely related to Book of Ash gets me very excited, what does that say about me? :o

That you're a necrophile? :p:p:p:rasp::D:D No offence intended.

[Platinumoxicity]

The undead are an important part of the different AI:s in Thief. You know how old games like Duke Nukem and Quake had many different totally unrelated enemies, that were all interesting in some way and they all had different skills and attacks? "Realistic" games nowadays don't have those. Thief still has some degree of difference between different enemies. The zombies in Thief can't be killed using normal weapons. This forces the player to change tactics. (unless he's a ghoster) The haunts can't be knocked out, or outrunned if detected. Change of tactics.

[cGREGgo]

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

Save the zombies & monsters for Quake & Duke Nukem...

Aren't we supposed to be sneaking around stealing things?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

(I need backup, hehe) :nut:

[ClashWho]

Must admit, I hated the zombies and ghosts when I first played the Dark Project, but now they're so much a part of the Thief world that I'd miss them if they were gone. Besides, they were the scariest parts of the game. Those haunts just plain freaked me out with their clanking chains and backwards speech. I wouldn't want them to dominate the game, but a couple levels featuring them would be nice.

[jtr7]

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

Save the zombies & monsters for Quake & Duke Nukem...

Aren't we supposed to be sneaking around stealing things?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

(I need backup, hehe) :nut:

No, we are not supposed to be sneaking around and stealing things. That's what Garrett would LIKE to do, but his lifestyle is interrupted by bigger things, making him use his skills for infiltration and information-gathering while stealing along the way to the bigger goal. Thief isn't supposed to be Medieval GTA with a focus on buildings. It's not supposed to be a reality simulator. It's a fantasy game about a Thief who can't have it his way much of the time, and what he has to do about it. I'd be upset if the majority of the Pagan Faction disappeared and the rest just became farmers. I like Viki and Constantine and their minions very much and would hate to see them wiped from the Thief Universe. Necromantic phenomena plaguing the Hammerites, too! It's a creepy world, and not just because it's dark outside. I'd love to see the missing flora and fauna return in some form (and not just mounted heads).

[cGREGgo]

I'd like to see zombies & dead things walking around stay burried underground where they belong...

:nut:

[Vae]

Too late...:D...they are already part of the THIEF universe.

[ClashWho]

No, we are not supposed to be sneaking around and stealing things. That's what Garrett would LIKE to do, but his lifestyle is interrupted by bigger things, making him use his skills for infiltration and information-gathering while stealing along the way to the bigger goal. Thief isn't supposed to be Medieval GTA with a focus on buildings. It's not supposed to be a reality simulator. It's a fantasy game about a Thief who can't have it his way much of the time, and what he has to do about it. I'd be upset if the majority of the Pagan Faction disappeared and the rest just became farmers. I like Viki and Constantine and their minions very much and would hate to see them wiped from the Thief Universe. Necromantic phenomena plaguing the Hammerites, too! It's a creepy world, and not just because it's dark outside. I'd love to see the missing flora and fauna return in some form (and not just mounted heads).

Now this is a guy that understands Thief!

[Vae]

No, we are not supposed to be sneaking around and stealing things. That's what Garrett would LIKE to do, but his lifestyle is interrupted by bigger things, making him use his skills for infiltration and information-gathering while stealing along the way to the bigger goal. Thief isn't supposed to be Medieval GTA with a focus on buildings. It's not supposed to be a reality simulator. It's a fantasy game about a Thief who can't have it his way much of the time, and what he has to do about it. I'd be upset if the majority of the Pagan Faction disappeared and the rest just became farmers. I like Viki and Constantine and their minions very much and would hate to see them wiped from the Thief Universe. Necromantic phenomena plaguing the Hammerites, too! It's a creepy world, and not just because it's dark outside. I'd love to see the missing flora and fauna return in some form (and not just mounted heads).

Now this is a guy that understands Thief!

:thumb:..Yes indeed!

I've said it before, I'll say it again...

Save the zombies & monsters for Quake & Duke Nukem...

Aren't we supposed to be sneaking around stealing things?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

(I need backup, hehe) :nut:

Now this is a guy who doesn't understand THIEF!

[cGREGgo]

You are getting sleepy...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QbzpXPgqsPThPM:http://themagicofhypnosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img7.jpg

Your eyes getting heavy...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QbzpXPgqsPThPM:http://themagicofhypnosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img7.jpg

On the count of three you're going to go change your vote..

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QbzpXPgqsPThPM:http://themagicofhypnosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img7.jpg

One...

Two...

Three...

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:QbzpXPgqsPThPM:http://themagicofhypnosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/img7.jpg

:nut:

[kabatta]

Grego, why can't you talk without emoticons ? Tough Herr is brutal, he has a point. You seem to exagerate more and more theese days. Stop posting in the topic trying not to start flame wars please.
Now back on the track (topic): I want haunts in Thief 4. I like hearing "Joiin us...joiiins us...JOIN US NOW!!"

(Just noticed I have said "start" instead of "stop". Boy, I feel silly. edited)

[cGREGgo]

:nut: Wow, nobody has a sense of humor around here? GEEZ! :nut:

Here's my favorite type mission:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UUp5SQnzbU


:) The kind with no haunts!

[Platinumoxicity]

Save the zombies & monsters for Quake & Duke Nukem...


You. Didn't. Under. Stand.

Human guards are 1 type of enemy, flying fire elementals are different and they require special tactics. Unkillable zombies are different and they require special tactics.
Quake had enemies that shoot, enemies that hit, and enemies that resurrect the dead. Those are different AI:s that all make the game more interesting.

Did you get it now? Thief 4 will suck if there are only 1 type of AI. Always doing the same stuff, always mubling the same jargon. All the Haunts, zombies and burricks make the game more fun because you can't just take out everyone using the blackjack.

Did you get it now? I'll separate the syllables for easier reading. Hu-man guards are 1 type of e-ne-my, flying fire e-le-men-tals are dif-fe-rent and they re-quire spe-cial tac-tics. Un-kill-able zom-bies are dif-fe-rent and they re-quire spe-cial tac-tics.

[cGREGgo]

The reason for the discrimination is (wasn't that the question?)...


These type levels are far more realistic... don't you think?

Especially if you:

- Cant kill anyone
- Have nothing except a blackjack

Also. This level was likely on expert, and look how easy that was (enemy awareness)?

Thi4f needs to be lots harder on expert level.

[kabatta]

Thief 4 will become too easy with only one type of AI, that is the point every person is trying to say to you.

[Platinumoxicity]

Yes, when you equip yourself for a mission that focuses on exploring unknown caves with "strange creatures" and you're suddenly supposed to go rob a heavily guarded opera house, you really need to improvise.

The reason for the discrimination is (wasn't that the question?)...
OMG you still didn't get it? :mad2:

[Namdrol]

...It's not that I want "only humans", I'm more of a balance type....T1 & T2 were perfect!

Changing our minds is a must if we are to be flexible and grow.
But sometimes it seems that people can deliberately change their position and make statements just to wind others up.
Not nice.

[jtr7]

If T1 was perfect, and the others have fewer non-human creatures, then there's no problem afterall. Ugh.

cGREGgo, your humor is not easily discerned from other comments of yours. If I knew when you were just taffing around, I could play along, eh?

[Vae]

He's not playing around...:nut:...:(

[Pieter888]

Like cGREGgo, I tend to like missions better without undead.
On the other hand, Thief 4 without undead might feel empty to me.
I loved the balance in TMA the most, I think thief IV should considering sticking to that balance (maybe even crank it up a bit because even though it was the best balance, a bit more undead couln't hurt).

I hope EM can find this balance between dead/living

[cGREGgo]

OMG you still didn't get it? :mad2:


No, you guys are not getting it... Easy? Uhhh NO WAY...

WIth zombies. You carry a fire arrow and shoot it at them. Or with a flashbomb, you run up & throw it on the ground.

Look at the person playing in that video! He's not playing THIEF, he's running around without even caring who he runs into. I don't even see him hiding in the shadow? Get real! He doesn't care if he's been spoted because all he has to do is throw something down on the ground & keep running.

HOW HARD IS THAT! HE'S NOT EVEN HIDING IN THE SHADOWS!

You can do this anywhere in thief 3, that's what makes it suck.

Now, each one of you guys following the crowd or "each other" because you may or may not think it's "cool". Try coming up with any ideas to make this harder. You're only voting against this so that the game will be esier for you to continue running around like a chicken with your head cut off throwing stuff on the ground.

What happen to being Sneaky? Take all those flashbombs away, take all those firearrows away. Make some changes to make this Thief and not Quake Area.

The guards & priests don't even hear him running around? In Thief you can picklock a door and open it with a guard standing 6 inches away from it? NOT LIKELY. I'm sorry, if I was staing with my back on a door, I'd know if someone just openend it. Make this game hard so that there will be NO RUNNING if humans can hear you like humans are supposed to.

Give me something hard to play! Make it to where I have to "creep" & hide in the shadows. With a "blackjack" only as my weapon, I MUST CREEP up behind guards. I have to be sneaky. Make it so the people around can hear me when I run around like an "idiot" chicken with my head cut off.

If I wanted to do that, I'd go play quake, not Thief. You're wanting to turn Thief Into a fragfest, then we're back to playing the same old Quake Arena game...

Sorry, I already got that game...

I have some more for you...

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE UNDEAD DISCRIMINATION!

:rasp:

Grego, why can't you talk without emoticons ?

Dude, their only faces, they can't really bother you that much can they? :rasp:

[ClashWho]

:nut: Wow, nobody has a sense of humor around here? GEEZ! :nut:

I thought it was funny, man. And I sympathize with your opinion. I was initially disappointed with the appearance of zombies and haunts way back when I first played the Dark Project. I, too, wanted a game where I was just a thief stealing things from ordinary humans. But I eventually realized that this just wasn't the intention of the creators. They were creating a fantastic world with Garret the master thief as the central character. Zombies and haunts are part of that world.

I also eventually realized that the real reason I initially disliked the zombies and haunts was simply because they freaked me out and wouldn't go down with a blackjack. Even a sword couldn't keep the zombies down for long. The game suddenly became much more complicated, and I didn't like that. But then I realized that the scariest, most tense and involving parts of the game were dealing with those blasted undead! They knocked me out of my thieving comfort zone, and that was ultimately a good thing.

I love the world the creators of Thief have given us, and that includes the frustrating, frightening and entertaining undead.

[cGREGgo]

I thought it was funny, man. And I sympathize with your opinion. I was initially disappointed with the appearance of zombies and haunts way back when I first played the Dark Project. I, too, wanted a game where I was just a thief stealing things from ordinary humans. But I eventually realized that this just wasn't the intention of the creators. They were creating a fantastic world with Garret the master thief as the central character. Zombies and haunts are part of that world.

I also eventually realized that the real reason I initially disliked the zombies and haunts was simply because they freaked me out and wouldn't go down with a blackjack. Even a sword couldn't keep the zombies down for long. The game suddenly became much more complicated, and I didn't like that. But then I realized that the scariest, most tense and involving parts of the game were dealing with those blasted undead! They knocked me out of my thieving comfort zone, and that was ultimately a good thing.

I love the world the creators of Thief have given us, and that includes the frustrating, frightening and entertaining undead.

Good post, but read above... that's not why those of us who dislike the "undead" feel that way. It's because without them (undead), you can have the option to play with only a blackjack as a weapon & get closer playing the way I suggested in the previous posts above.

[ClashWho]

Good post, but read above... that's not why those of us who dislike the "undead" feel that way. It's because without them, you can have only a blackjack & get closer playing the way I suggested in the previous posts above.

But there are plenty of levels like that. The undead levels break up the monotony of that. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't want the undead to dominate the game, but I think it's great having a few levels featuring them. They break us out of our comfort zone, as I and others have said in this thread. That's not a bad thing. It sounds to me like you want a one-dimensional game.

[cGREGgo]

But there are plenty of levels like that..

No there aren't... there aren't any levels that MAKE you play like that. You can run around like an idiot in all the levels.

[Namdrol]

You can run around like an idiot anywhere in life, in a game, on the internet.
But it is not a rewarding experience as most of us realise when we grow up.
The reactions we get both in game and in life are not satisfying and fulfilling.
So we learn to do things differently.

[ClashWho]

No there aren't... there aren't any levels that MAKE you play like that. You can run around like an idiot in all the levels.

No, you can't. There are MANY levels where playing like that gets you killed.

[Platinumoxicity]

I'm starting to get the feeling that discussing cGREGgo's ideas with cGREGgo is like playing chess with a pigeon. He topples all the pieces, craps all over the board and goes in front of a mirror to tell himself how good he's in chess.

He reminds me of those arabic debate shows on Youtube where an ex-muslim woman tries to debate an extremist imam. Those are hilarious... The man doesn't even try to understand the point she's trying to make and raises his voice, talks on top of her and it becomes a shouting match. :D

[cGREGgo]

Dude, there's a line you shouldn't cross before you start getting stupid. That's going to get deleted.

[kabatta]

I'm starting to get the feeling that discussing cGREGgo's ideas with cGREGgo is like playing chess with a pigeon. He topples all the pieces, craps all over the board and goes in front of a mirror to tell himself how good he's in chess.

He reminds me of those arabic debate shows on Youtube where an ex-muslim woman tries to debate an extremist imam. Those are hilarious... The man doesn't even try to understand the point she's trying to make and raises his voice, talks on top of her and it becomes a shouting match. :D

I hear that.:thumb:

[cGREGgo]

I hear that.:thumb:

You also...

The man doesn't even try to understand the point he's trying to make and raises his voice, talks on top of her and it becomes a shouting match. :D

I'm not "raising my voice", I dont' hear anyone talking here, I'm reading it.

[kabatta]

If you are going to use your super laser powers to get our "big, mean, evil" posts deleted be a gent and get me the fries too, and a diet coke.

[Pieter888]

I'm not "raising my voice", I dont' hear anyone talking here, I'm reading it.

Most epic confirmation ever to be seen on this forum:lol:

[Vae]

I'm starting to get the feeling that discussing cGREGgo's ideas with cGREGgo is like playing chess with a pigeon. He topples all the pieces, craps all over the board and goes in front of a mirror to tell himself how good he's in chess.


:lol:...isn't it delightful...


I'm not "raising my voice", I dont' hear anyone talking here, I'm reading it.

:lol:...oh silly, silly see-gre-go...please stay around, you're so much fun...:)

[Pieter888]

I second that :)
nice, nick btw.
Go see-gre-go!

[Namdrol]

If you are going to use your super laser powers to get our "big, mean, evil" posts deleted be a gent and get me the fries too, and a diet coke.


:flowers:

[ToMegaTherion]

I think anyone who doesn't accept that it's reasonable to want to have no woo missions in Thief 4 is a fanatic. Same goes for anyone who doesn't accept it's reasonable to want woo missions in Thief 4.

[Namdrol]

Fanatics all round then :)

[ToMegaTherion]

Those crazy hammers...

[ClashWho]

I think anyone who doesn't accept that it's reasonable to want to have no woo missions in Thief 4 is a fanatic. Same goes for anyone who doesn't accept it's reasonable to want woo missions in Thief 4.

Woo? What's woo?

[esme]

does "woo" mean "undead" ? as in wooOOOooooOOOoooo ?

[Namdrol]

I didn't get it either, I just tried to follow the argument and ended up with "error, does not compute".

[kabatta]

Good to know I'm not the only one wondering what is that "woo" thing.

[jtr7]

I feel like I want to agree with the "woo" statement, but I can't be sure. ;)

[ToMegaTherion]

I guess esme might have the right idea, I can't remember the derivation but it was used on the ion storm thief 3 forum. It was for undead and it might have been for other supernatural stuff too, my memory is hazy. I think it was originally a mocking term, but it's just quick to write and everyone there knew what it meant.