T4 HEALTH System - Food & Healing Potion & General Discussion

[VIKTORIA]

Do you want to see the traditional system back in T4 - health potion, fruit and meat etc.
Or perhaps you have other ideas?

Discuss... :)

[Nate]

I always disliked the idea of 'hmm, I ate an apple and some of my cuts suddenly healed right up'.....

Garrett should only be able to heal by going to a healer or by drinking healing potions. Although, resting between missions should heal him up partially as well.

[StalinsGhost]

Health Potion all the way with Thief. I actually support the health-regen model they're using in DE3, but in Thief you must be vunerable and be forced to plan ahead and for any contingencies. That's part of what makes Thief so awesome :)

[Thievingtaffer]

I don't think that there was anything wrong in the older games.

[Danie1]

Old system was best! I'm not too fond of "magical healing", but healing potions and food didn't bother me.

[Nate]

Down with food!...I mean in the game of course.

[UrUkUs]

food shouldn't restore health, but Garret can have hunger, so we have to eat from time to time, or his energy will lower.

[Nate]

food shouldn't restore health, but Garret can have hunger, so we have to eat from time to time, or his energy will lower.

You know, that actually sounds kind of neat....as long as they don't end up with an Ultima 7 'Avatar, we are hungry, feed us now!' kind of experience. Hehe, I am probably the only one here who will understand that reference.

[cobakka]

food shouldn't restore health, but Garret can have hunger, so we have to eat from time to time, or his energy will lower.

This could work if they added in stamina for running... similar to Half Life 2's sprinting or whatever. Food could regenerate his stamina. MOST people don't go around sprinting everywhere unless they're doing a speed run anyway, and that way you can't just run away from the guards forever because you'll only be able to outrun them until your stamina runs out.

[nicked]

sounds like it'd be a pain in the ass to heal. There's a big difference between realistic and fun. Healing food isn't realistic, but it's a lot less immersion-breaking than having to leave the mission to visit a healer, or having to eat food every few minutes to not get tired!? It's not the Sims!

[UrUkUs]

and that way you can't just run away from the guards forever because you'll only be able to outrun them until your stamina runs out.


thats why i suggested in weapons thread, about weight system, with heavy bag full of loot you can't run with it, unless you have 1 PS like a horse:D

sounds like it'd be a pain in the ass to heal. There's a big difference between realistic and fun. Healing food isn't realistic, but it's a lot less immersion-breaking than having to leave the mission to visit a healer, or having to eat food every few minutes to not get tired!? It's not the Sims!

when balance is good, you shouldn't get tired quick, and your stamina should restore fast, just hide and sit in shadows for few seconds, then continue your way.

[ByLaw]

My take:
Healer - would be bad in practice because it would force you to break continuity, and couldn't heal mid-level
Food - not realistic, but giving a SLIGHT health boost might be helpful, and could be slightly realistic (eating might give you the energy to carry on, so it would get you from one health bar to two or three, but nothing beyond that to make the game playable but keep the tension)
Regeneration - NO! Damage in thief should be a serious penalty, since if you're playing the game correctly you should not take damage at all. Regeneration makes this too easy.
Potions - worked well for the originals. Higher difficulty should limit the number of potions you can carry.
Self-treating system - now what would REALLY add to the atmosphere is if there were various treatments around each level that one could use on oneself, such as a bandage, sutures, tincture, etc. Not unlike the system in Metal Gear Solid 3. It would force one to hunt for the treating items, and then perhaps a minigame to use them properly - do it right, and you get full health; do it wrong or with only some of the tools, and you get some but not full benefit.

[nicked]

Minigames? Forcing the player to hunt for healing items? I thought the idea was to make the game immersive. :mad2:

[Princess_Frosty]

Food I think is a good idea, the health potions are OK but maybe make them work over a longer period of time, one of the few niggles I had with the thief games, a more slow release health potion would crush that niggle like a large...er..noggle?

Anyway, yeah have both but more slow release so theres no instant healthpack like heal, you have to hide and slowly regen over time.

[ByLaw]

Minigames? Forcing the player to hunt for healing items? I thought the idea was to make the game immersive. :mad2:

It would be no different than the lock-picking game that is essentially a requirement and doesn't remove immersion but adds to it. :mad2: Healing oneself could result in greater visibility, prompting you to hurry - maybe you could only heal yourself in the light, so you could "see what you're doing," raising your risk.

[GmanPro]

Just please. No regenerating health. I'll leave it at that.

[Danie1]

From some of the complaints above:

Food in the first two Thief games randomly restaored health, and when they did, it wa only 1 drop worth. Plums always restored two drops worth, but they were associated with supernatural beings.

Health potions in Thief/Thief II were slow acting. It took about 30 seconds for them to fully work.

Does no one here feel better after eating something? I always get an energy boost after having an apple or sandwich after working out. It's not the same as being hurt from a sword or high fall, but it's a natural and easy way to add minor healing to the game.

[ToMegaTherion]

Food shouldn't restore health because it's silly.

Healing potions should operate as they did in the original, since that was the original and there was no good reason to change it. Unless the designers can come up with something better. But if it's a choice between immediate action and slower action, then slower action is better. In fact, even slower than the original might be a good idea for gameplay reasons.

[Danie1]

What makes a potion less silly than food? I'm not trying to rude or anything, but I really think food is a good way to add health to the mission without needing to have an excuse to add health potions.

[TheJoker]

From some of the complaints above:

Food in the first two Thief games randomly restaored health, and when they did, it wa only 1 drop worth. Plums always restored two drops worth, but they were associated with supernatural beings.

Health potions in Thief/Thief II were slow acting. It took about 30 seconds for them to fully work.

Does no one here feel better after eating something? I always get an energy boost after having an apple or sandwich after working out. It's not the same as being hurt from a sword or high fall, but it's a natural and easy way to add minor healing to the game.

Agreed

[AntiMatter_16]

From some of the complaints above:

Food in the first two Thief games randomly restored health, and when they did, it was only 1 drop worth. Plums always restored two drops worth, but they were associated with supernatural beings.

Health potions in Thief/Thief II were slow acting. It took about 30 seconds for them to fully work.

Does no one here feel better after eating something? I always get an energy boost after having an apple or sandwich after working out. It's not the same as being hurt from a sword or high fall, but it's a natural and easy way to add minor healing to the game.

In Thief The Dark Project, the only food that could heal you was the plum, or "healing fruit" as it was actually called and was associated with the Trickster's magic. All other food you could eat with no benefit. It wasn't until Thief II that bread and the deer leg were changed to make them randomly heal the player 1 point about every 1/4 times you ate one. And in Thief Deadly Shadows, food just sat around uselessly. You couldn't even eat it for fun. Which was kind of a downer, honestly.

I'm of the opinion that the player's health points are evaluative of not only wounds, but also fatigue. I honestly hate fatigue systems, I find them very annoying. Eating often does make one feel better to some degree, so I'm for food working as it did in Thief 2. But as the very least, the player should be able to eat food if it's lying around. Why prevent the player from doing so?

[ToMegaTherion]

What makes a potion less silly than food? I'm not trying to rude or anything, but I really think food is a good way to add health to the mission without needing to have an excuse to add health potions.

I guess I don't mind healing potions because they don't exist in reality, but Deer Legs do and they're not noted for repairing wounds.

I see your point from a gameplay perspective. But I'm not sure that making the kitchen one of the best places to loot is desirable atmospherically :D

[VIKTORIA]

What about the audio? The 'crunch' of the apple, the 'gulp' of the health potion etc.
Would it be sensible to expect these familiar sounds back in T4?

[cobakka]

thats why i suggested in weapons thread, about weight system, with heavy bag full of loot you can't run with it, unless you have 1 PS like a horse:D



when balance is good, you shouldn't get tired quick, and your stamina should restore fast, just hide and sit in shadows for few seconds, then continue your way.

i would support the weight system with 2 conditions:

1) Loot doesn't count. The game is all about stealing stuff so let's don't punish someone for that :) However, carrying lots of weapons/tools does count.

2) If combined with my stamina idea so that the weight system only effects how quickly you lose stamina when running/moving fast.

As for as stamina goes, I think moving fast/running for a while should effect it as well as jumping 3 times in a row or something (since technically jumping was the fastest way to move in Thief heh). And I completely agree that it should restore fast, even without eating something. I just think that eating something to restore stamina makes more sense than health. Maybe as you get more hurt your max stamina goes down until you eat something?

[cobakka]

What about the audio? The 'crunch' of the apple, the 'gulp' of the health potion etc.
Would it be sensible to expect these familiar sounds back in T4?

and yes please! thats really why i ate apples at all... it was a very satisfying crunch :)

[van_HellSing]

We'll be getting automatic health anyways. Because, you know, the industry grew up. God mode is trendy.

[ToMegaTherion]

What about the audio? The 'crunch' of the apple, the 'gulp' of the health potion etc.
Would it be sensible to expect these familiar sounds back in T4?

It seems appropriate to keep as many sounds (or at least their style) as possible, however, we should not push the idea that everything should be the same as before. For example, some food eating noises (at least in one game, can't remember which) struck me as being sometimes rather wrong for the thing being eaten. Although maintaining such sounds would be good for the nostalgia and raise a few smiles for those "in the know", it's always better to make things look and sound as professional as possible. So we should keep the same styles of sounds wherever possible, but neaten up any deficiencies without too much nostalgic emotion getting in our way.

[Mshade]

The original Thief games were cool in that you could eat to gain health. I think that they should keep that to some extend but not to the point where it becomes gimmicky to gain stamina so that you can run or jump. Healing potions should be the main healing tool but it should not be so strong as so that you can go from almost no health to full health in 5 seconds. I liked the Rid**** games health system how it had different bars that regenerated but onnly if they were completely lost. It should be like that but without regenerating health. Meaning that the health potions work depending on how much health you have left. While 'healing' is a slow process as in real life and should take a couple of in-game days.

[VIKTORIA]

and yes please! thats really why i ate apples at all... it was a very satisfying crunch :)

Yeah, weird - it truly was very satisfying! :D

[Garrett21]

Meh i dont use those items i do 0% damage and caught games but the old way is fine by me.

[NewUser2]

Health potions should work like in t1,t2 and food should give you a little health.

[Neb]

2) If combined with my stamina idea so that the weight system only effects how quickly you lose stamina when running/moving fast.

There's no need for a stamina system. The drawback to running everywhere is that you're a lot louder.

We'll be getting automatic health anyways. Because, you know, the industry grew up. God mode is trendy.

The worst part about that is, non-lethal falls would have no negative consequences. You could carelessly just jump out of buildings and shrug it off. It's a horrible idea.

[Smiffydude]

Damage should not only lower your health, but also your strength and speed. I think the only healing should come from healing potions, but they should be extremely rare in the game so as to discourage combat. And food should be used increase your strenght and speed to say 80-90% what it would be at full health.

[Neb]

Damage should not only lower your health, but also your strength and speed.

That would mean not being able to run away if someone hit you with a sword. Also, you'd be weakened so you wouldn't be able to fight back. Game over.

[FrankCSIS]

Just please. No regenerating health. I'll leave it at that.

I truly can't wait to see how it goes, because they're sort of doomed both ways, health-wise anyway. They can't possibly justify an autoregen system the way they did with DX3 (no technology in this medieval setting to serve as an easy cop out), but if they do stick to potions or other limited sources of health, it directly contradicts the reasoning behind DX 3's design choice.

Interesting Catch 22 there.

[Danie1]

That would mean not being able to run away if someone hit you with a sword. Also, you'd be weakened so you wouldn't be able to fight back. Game over.

So true. In Thievery UT, it used to be such that if a guard hit you, you'd slow down for just a second, and then you ended up dead.

[Neb]

I truly can't wait to see how it goes, because they're sort of doomed both ways, health-wise anyway. They can't possibly justify an autoregen system the way they did with DX3 (no technology in this medieval setting to serve as an easy cop out), but if they do stick to potions or other limited sources of health, it directly contradicts the reasoning behind DX 3's design choice.

Interesting Catch 22 there.

Perhaps not. If Deus Ex 3 was a game about rummaging through every single inch of game world in search of loot then their excuse for auto-heal would not be justifiable.

[GmanPro]

I truly can't wait to see how it goes, because they're sort of doomed both ways, health-wise anyway. They can't possibly justify an autoregen system the way they did with DX3 (no technology in this medieval setting to serve as an easy cop out), but if they do stick to potions or other limited sources of health, it directly contradicts the reasoning behind DX 3's design choice.

Interesting Catch 22 there.

Well, they are different types of games. DX3 and Thief. The whole point of Thief is to thoroughly explore every corner and search for every piece of loot you can find.

Could you imagine playing System Shock with regenerating supplies? That would be so awful.

[FrankCSIS]

Without having to search every inch, only through careful exploration and search would you benefit from a full experience in DX. Like Thief, you didn't explore the world for health, you simply found it while looking for something else.

If the so-called health hunting takes you away from the gaming in DX, the core logic behind the autoregen choice, why would it be any different in Thief? Or rather, if keeping a limited supply of health has no effect on Thief, why would it take you away from the action in DX?

I don't want to bring the debate over this side of the fence, but I definitely will be keeping an eye on the health justification for this game, whatever way it goes. I suspect logical self-contradiction to ensue.

[Neb]

Without having to search every inch, only through careful exploration and search would you benefit from a full experience in DX. Like Thief, you didn't explore the world for health, you simply found it while looking for something else.

If the so-called health hunting takes you away from the gaming in DX, the core logic behind the autoregen choice, why would it be any different in Thief? Or rather, if keeping a limited supply of health has no effect on Thief, why would it take you away from the action in DX?

I don't want to bring the debate over this side of the fence, but I definitely will be keeping an eye on the health justification for this game, whatever way it goes. I suspect logical self-contradiction to ensue.

I agree with you. It's just that Thief is a game explicitly about hunting around for items, which completely destroys the excuse for auto-heal, unless they were to give us auto-generating loot too.

Deus Ex 3 would no doubt be better without it, though. I'm honestly not a huge fan of even the first, but the most fun I had involved exploring everywhere I could.

[randomtaffer]

Healing potions are fine, I don't really care about the food. Using food to regenerate stamina, or making the player actually have limited stamina, rather, is a horrible idea.

[Botlas]

This is one of the few areas I'd like to see T4 updated to match modern games and get a regenerating health system. The one tweak is that I don't think the health should regenerate if there are people actively looking for you. That will make it a challenge if you get caught, but once you escape there really isn't a point to make you worry about your health.

This assumes that you still die easily in a fight (which shouldn't change).

[Nate]

God NO!!!! Please leave out Regenerating health.

I really like the idea that health is only gained from healing potions (and maybe a doctor/healer type 'store' in the game).

[GmanPro]

This is one of the few areas I'd like to see T4 updated to match modern games and get a regenerating health system. The one tweak is that I don't think the health should regenerate if there are people actively looking for you. That will make it a challenge if you get caught, but once you escape there really isn't a point to make you worry about your health.

This assumes that you still die easily in a fight (which shouldn't change).

Troll

[VIKTORIA]

The health regen system can work with certain games... just not for Thief. Part of the challenge is to gather food and to discover healing potions hidden away in some secret location. I also enjoy crunching on the juicy apples and gulping down a flask of potion. :D
Health regen would remove all of this "thiefy charm" for me, so I vote against it.

[Jables_Kage]

i liked the traditional eating of food but health potions should be scarce and somthing you have to make and scavenge ingredients for. But for the love of GOD no health regeneration!!!

[THIEF]

The health regen system can work with certain games... just not for Thief. Part of the challenge is to gather food and to discover healing potions hidden away in some secret location. I also enjoy crunching on the juicy apples and gulping down a flask of potion. :D
Health regen would remove all of this "thiefy charm" for me, so I vote against it.

Totally agree.

[Botlas]

Troll

What, because anyone who disagrees with you is a troll?

It's not like the game is about surviving an onslaught of Hammerites. Garrett can take so little damage in a fight that the health system hardly mattered; if he got caught by more than one opponent and injured, he was soon dead. Plus, the first three games littered the levels with food and health potions. If you got injured and managed to escape, healing up was a trivial matter.

Whether or not it's shown, Thief has an alert timer like MGS. If you didn't regenerate while the alert timer was up, you'd still get the tension of the original games while the guards were looking for you. Besides, you never really needed more than a couple healing potions in any given mission, and that was only if you were careless. Whenever there was a tough situation the levels always had a healing potion lying around nearby to help you out. Adding a regen system isn't any more artificial than levels where people conveniently leave health potions lying around everywhere.

[Nate]

The biggest problem with Health Regeneration is that Garrett spends a lot of time sneaking around waiting for the right moment to make his move.....during all that waiting time, Garrett would reach 100% health pretty easily without the player doing anything out of the ordinary.

It would make non instant lethal injuries insignificant.

[pha]

Adding a regen system isn't any more artificial than levels where people conveniently leave health potions lying around everywhere.

...

Can you say that Thief series is 100% realistic except for the health system? People's concern about health regen isn't realism. It just simplifies the game to casuals' level, and Thief fans don't want this, with good reason.

Even if the game world is bloated with sustenance (food, pots) it's better to use them than using magical EZ mode health regen.

But for whatever reason, EM has a totally out of place health regen fetish.:hmm:

[GmanPro]

^^ Exactly. And someone else mentioned earlier that you could jump off of buildings without penalty. Why do so many noobs want their resources/supplies to magically regenerate? Seriously. Where is the fun in that?

[Botlas]

^^ Exactly. And someone else mentioned earlier that you could jump off of buildings without penalty. Why do so many noobs want their resources/supplies to magically regenerate? Seriously. Where is the fun in that?

I see a pattern here. Someone disagrees with you, and they're automatically a troll or a noob. I noticed in your rant thread that you pretty much assume that your view of Thief is the "correct" one, so I guess it's to be expected.

A lot of people seem to be assuming that a health regen system has to operate just like Halo or Gears of War, e.g., if you avoid getting hit for 5 seconds, you're back at full health. But there are plenty of limitations that you can stick on a regen system that would maintain the same level of threat and difficulty, such as my suggestion of no regen during an alert phase. As it is, the previous Thief games were not that difficult in terms of keeping yourself alive, because there was always a health potion or piece of food around the corner once you got away. Or, in the case of Deadly Shadows, you were able to carry around a dozen (or so) health potions in addition to the ones scattered around the levels.

The risk involved in jumping off buildings is also a matter of design. The time it would take to regen would be one factor, but if they really wanted to push it they could add in debuffs or other negative effects if you fell but didn't die instantly.

IMO health was meaningless in any of the Thief games when you were hidden, because it was so easy to regen your health if no one was chasing you. A well-designed health regen system would acknowledge that and prevent you from feeling the need to doing un-fun things like backtracking to get that piece of food you spotted a few minutes earlier (but didn't need at the time).

[GmanPro]

It ruins immersion to have any of your supplies regenerate. You should have to earn your health. It makes the game more meaningful.

I noticed in your rant thread that you pretty much assume that your view of Thief is the "correct" one, so I guess it's to be expected.

It is the correct one. There was none of that stuff in any of the Thief games (with the exception of third person camera angles which should never have been there anyway). And that is how it should stay.

[Nate]

I'm with GmanPro on this one. Regen would suck. I'd just let Garrett sit in a dark shadow during mission and heal up to 100% (while I go have a snack or watch TV), then run out and kill some more haunts, and then repeat. It really messes with how Thief is meant to be played.

A health regen system would turn Garrett into a death dealing Juggernaught capable of clearing out whole mission maps (with a lot of patience) = Garrett is less a Thief and more a Beserker Troll.

I would rather heal potions and a doctor/healer 'store' where Garrett can gets his wounds tended (for cheaper than a potion).

I am not big on the food regens health concept from past Thief games....
-so I would be fine if they left it out
-OR you had to eat a LOT of food to get a point of health back
-OR food can only regen a limited amount of health during a mission, no matter how much you eat.

[Pangalactic]

I miss the food from T1 and T2. I don't care if it recharges your health or not, I just hope you can eat it in T4.

[FrankCSIS]

ut there are plenty of limitations that you can stick on a regen system that would maintain the same level of threat and difficulty

I see what you're saying, but really, what's the point?

Why does anyone see health regen as an evolution to health management? Tweaking your regen level and mechanic just so is ridiculously more complicated than distributing a limited amount of resources per level, mainly because all levels are not the same. What speed of regeneration is acceptable for a level/mission heavily depends on its conditions, and will vary from the next, unless your game is more of the same with each passing chapter.

Make it too slow, and the player is forced to sit around and wait for his health to return. Make it too fast, and he is in full force each time a new confrontation begins.

But even if you do manage to tweak it just so, if you find the magic formula that would prove, for the first time in history, that a federal system is more effective than a decentralised one, it still makes the player tributary to the system. It forces him to plan according to the autoregen's settings, instead of his own choosing, instead of his management decisions. And that, is hardly a form of gaming evolution. On the contrary, it takes away one of the already scarce player gaming abilities. It brings you one step closer to being a witness, one step further back into movie territory. Hardly an evolution I wish to see in games. We already have good movies, I like my games to remain what they're supposed to be.

[Ice1019]

I think from a strategic perspective, the harder it is to keep Garrett alive, the more carefully you have to think to stay alive, and make off with the loot. Garrett approaches his craft with an artist's touch, and the best Thief experience comes from playing with this same attention to detail. Sitting in the shadows while your health regenerates I think would diminish the strategic thinking necessary to really appreciate the stealth gameplay. Healing potions are okay, food is ehh, but workable.

[Botlas]

I see what you're saying, but really, what's the point?


You make a really good point. It would indeed be very hard to balance it just right. The problem I see is that the health potion and food mechanic of the prior Thief games encourages potion hording. Rather than using it when you feel you need it, you end up waiting until you stumble upon the next conveniently placed healing item because you know there is going to be one. So you finish the level with a ton of healing potions, or in the case of Deadly Shadows, start off with a ton and end with a bunch left behind. Or you to backtrack and pick up items you passed previously that you didn't need. At the end of the day, Thief is a game and should be fun, and neither of those things is fun.

If it's too hard to balance properly, then I agree that you're better off with a simpler potion/food mechanic. But tweaking the system goes beyond just the speed of the regen. Done right, it can have the same level of tension and difficulty as the prior games (which IMO aren't actually that difficult) without the boring backtracking and potion hording.

Now, if their intention is to ramp up the difficulty in regards to health and turn Thief into a survival horror game, then sure, leave the regen out. If they're trying to keep it in the same level of difficulty as the first three games, then a regen system doesn't necessarily interfere with that.

[Ice1019]

I think it's all in the execution. Potion hoarding is a problem definitely, but maybe a limit on how many of one item you can have, or limiting the availability of health potions as a kind of special item might rectify that. I think also breaking the missions up like in the first two games might also be the way to go, rather than having to run all over the City guessing which of those stupid fences had potions and buying a jillion of them so you can run through the game without having to be sneaky.

[GmanPro]

^^ True. I don't have to be as careful in T3 near the end because I can afford to carry around a Leman Russ Tank in my backpack. Keeping your supplies limited is the way to go I think. Left 4 Dead uses possibly the best health system ever. It makes managing your health very strategic and of vital importance. It wouldn't be too difficult to create that same feeling with regards to your Thief equipment. The key is keeping equipment scarce, thereby increasing its value.

[Gabriel]

No regenerating health! You could hide in the shadows and wait for your health to regenerate fully, then be back on your way. Which would make the game way to easy, IMO.

I like how you could regenerate health with health potions and food in Thief 2. Food should obviously regenerate a lot less health points. If not, it should at least be available to eat, even if it's with no effect. I always liked to chow down a deer leg, a carrot or an apple in Thief 2 :)

That is all.

[pha]

Done right, it can have the same level of tension and difficulty as the prior games (which IMO aren't actually that difficult) without the boring backtracking and potion hording.


Well, good luck doing it "right".

[Tohtori]

The health bar isn't really good for any Thief games. It is really silly to run levels with only few points of health left and besides it is coming a bit old fashioned anyway. Thief is sneaking game and healh system sould encourage not to be seen. Instead of health bar I'd like to see a kind of instant kill where you could be crippeled and leave a trail of blood and would loose speed or couldn't climb anymore (untill you get healed ofcourse). For blood trails there could perhaps be bandages.

The point should be more that you would most likely die if u get into a fight. But if you'd survive there should be way to restore youself to full strength. I think something like healing ritual or some kind of magical healing object could be better. But it should need time and perhaps illuminate protagonist so you'll need to find safe spot first. Health potions could still be used for quick heal and escape. Perhaps there would even be combinations like healt and invisibility potions.

Fatigue could also be nice. You couldn't run away all day. It should anyway return fast unless you have spend it too much when you should rest more and eat or drink something. And the idea that you would be slower if you pack more weapons and gadgets sounds fun. It makes planning more important.

And what comes to old apple crunch and potion gulp, I'd like to hear those in next Thief too.

[Mshade]

The health bar isn't really good for any Thief games. It is really silly to run levels with only few points of health left and besides it is coming a bit old fashioned anyway. Thief is sneaking game and healh system sould encourage not to be seen. Instead of health bar I'd like to see a kind of instant kill where you could be crippeled and leave a trail of blood and would loose speed or couldn't climb anymore (untill you get healed ofcourse). For blood trails there could perhaps be bandages.

The point should be more that you would most likely die if u get into a fight. But if you'd survive there should be way to restore youself to full strength. I think something like healing ritual or some kind of magical healing object could be better. But it should need time and perhaps illuminate protagonist so you'll need to find safe spot first. Health potions could still be used for quick heal and escape. Perhaps there would even be combinations like healt and invisibility potions.

Fatigue could also be nice. You couldn't run away all day. It should anyway return fast unless you have spend it too much when you should rest more and eat or drink something. And the idea that you would be slower if you pack more weapons and gadgets sounds fun. It makes planning more important.

And what comes to old apple crunch and potion gulp, I'd like to hear those in next Thief too.

I agree that there should be no health bar. It breaks immersion and you need to constantly see it. The effects of damage should be 'felt' by the player. For example, bleeding as you mentioned and I really like what they did in Resident Evil 4. It you were hurt you would limp and not be able to move as fast as well as breath heavy.

[OnionKnight]

Normally I abhor regenerating health in general, but it could work here but of course with severe limitations. I was thinking that you remove the health bar, and for minor wounds such as burning yourself a on a fire the damage could gradually regenerate because it makes no sense to get yourself beaten to the point where you have 1 HP left and then suddenly, a small puff of environmental damage kills you off.
Well, I guess you could still go without regen but should the player really consider using healing items to recover from smaller wounds he's been accumulating from being curious about things in a level?
Also thinking that this regeneration would be slow, as a punishment for the player so he'd have to sit in a corner and wait if he wants to recover most of it. Or sacrifice a health potion.

For major damage, such as a single hit from a guard's blade, a trap or falling damage you would bleed to death in a small amount of time unless you use a health potion. This kind of damage would not have any regenerating capabilities, only items will help you here. You don't just run around with half your HP taken, you die unless something is done.

While Garrett is a master at being a thief, he is also supposed to be really puny physically and shouldn't stand a chance against a warrior in battle, unless he's Benny. If you get into a fight, then you are not doing it right to begin with.

[tender19]

Don't want realism, nor overcomplicated fighting system, nor regeneration, the old way worked just fine. You're a Thief dammit, anyway. I play Thief 1-2 on Expert without a scratch. Okay, I'm a veteran, but still, stay in the shadows and quickload if someone touches your shoulders, sayin': that's it, you'll have it.

[Sykyrys]

food was interesting, we need Ale now

[Zeraliten]

Regenerating health is a major no-no and imo is the single most atmosphere-breaking thing that could possibly be introduced to Thief. As mentioned, Garrett is a master thief. He's not a D&D cleric, he's not master chief, he doesn't have Crysis' Nanosuit that can repair body tissue. He's an ordinary man living in a steampunk-ish world and as such he should not be expected to have any kind of superhuman abilities like Wolverine's regeneration.

In the earlier games Garrett was no superman. He didn't possess incredible strength, he didn't have a vast arsenal of lethal weapons and he would, in fact, be quite thoroughly fooked if he tried to engage in combat with a large number of people over the course of a level. Guards wear armor, they carry swords etc. Large, clunky, noisy equipment that afford them an upper edge in direct combat. Garrett's advantage is that he carries none of these things and instead relies on actual thieving and sneaking. The best way to win a battle is to avoid it altogether. And in that case regenerating health would be pointless. Regen health also makes 99% of games utilizing them painfully boring and simplistic. Just run around a corner with 2% health left and presto, 30 seconds later you're fine. Your fubaring of your sneakysneaky across the roof and being spotted by a bunch of guards who filled you with arrows? All forgiven. No real penalty. No need to be extra careful because you're near death.

Munching on random food you find lying around I could agree with having it increase your stamina. But it should be done as a hidden stat. Stamina meters on the HUD would detract from the immersion. And eating food shouldn't make a large difference either, nor should it be a gamebreaker if you don't eat any. A small hidden bonus like an ever so slightly increased maximum stamina "pool" (again, a hidden stat) would be nice.

As far as actual healing goes, the potions would get my vote. They currently fit best for healing purposes in the game world and you avoid the "How the *bleep* did eating half a loaf of bread suddenly cure my otherwise fatal wounds and the 4 pints of blood I just lost?". Another thing that could be interesting to see would be a simple bleeding system. If you mess up at some point and are spotted by a guard who then proceeds to poke you once or twice with a sword or shoots an arrow in your bum, it could leave you bleeding for some time, both weakening you (extremely slow health drain, perhaps? relatively large penalty to the aforementioned stamina pool, maybe?) and maybe causing you to leave random droplets of blood for a while unless you patch it up with some strips of bandaging or maybe use up one of your fire arrows to crack it open and cauterize the wound with its contents. In any case it shouldn't be something that pulls you away from the game atmosphere. If integrated well with the flow of the game then I'd like to see such a thing. If it breaks the flow then I'd rather not see a bleeding system as I described at all.
</my two cents>

ps: NO regen. Pretty please?

[GmanPro]

You make good points, but then, so did everyone on the DX3 forums. They are going to do it anyway Zeraliten. I think EM has some sort of regen obsession to be honest. We should plan an intervention...

[Qazi]

As far as actual healing goes, the potions would get my vote. They currently fit best for healing purposes in the game world and you avoid the "How the *bleep* did eating half a loaf of bread suddenly cure my otherwise fatal wounds and the 4 pints of blood I just lost?".

Why must you discard the notion of the simple, wholesome Pagan magic of eating good sustenance in the Thief universe? Sure, it doesn't make sense in reality, so it is a good thing Thief isn't set here isn't it?
However really, loads of people seem to be overexaggerating the food healing issue.
That half of a loaf only restored the tiniest fraction of health, and even then very occasionally. Garrett needed to eat a veritable picnic to restore any goodly amount of shields.

[Corvin25]

I like the idea of healing potions. But I don't think eating food should instantly heal up wounds. The only exception to this I think would be the magical pagan fruits that you found in the "Escape!" mission in Thief 1. One would assume that pagan food would be magically augmented somehow for maximum nourishment, and "regrowth" of tissue. Pagans do love natural growth and healing, after all.

And no. Do NOT allow Garrett's health to regenerate naturally over time without any items. It should only be "automatically" healed between missions, where Garrett has had time to recuperate and/or sleep.

Don't stray from the "hit point" system either. It's been working well so far.

[massimilianogoi]

Do you want to see the traditional system back in T4 - health potion, fruit and meat etc.
Or perhaps you have other ideas?

Discuss... :)

In my opinion, making the food in Thief - Deadly Shadows just mere objects to throw was a GREAT error. So much that I'm workd to convert them as edible, as you can see in my following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN0O2kmF53Q

For the rest, like healing potions, I woul keep the standard, just readd what were present in the past games. http://www.ttlg.com/forums/images/smilies/thumb.gif

[Norsu]

My opinion about health system is if it ain't broken don't fix it.

If you really have to add something make sure it fits in and doesn't make things too different. Here's how I would do the health system in T4:

-Potions - Exactly like in T1 & T2
-Pagan fruits (if present) - Exactly like in T1 & T2
-Food - Bigger food items like deer leg would have greater chance of healing one HP and small ones like apple would have lower chance. Chances in both cases should still be lower than in T2 (e.g. 1/10 & 1/15 vs 1/4 in T2). Also maybe add a limit how many food items can be consumed in a row to prevent them from being more powerful than potions and fruits

Absolutely no health regeneration. Leave that feature to games where it has been for a long time already (Halo, CoD etc).

[Botlas]

For people who hated that food gave you health back, can you explain to me what your problem is? I don't actually care either way, because as I've said before, I think regaining your health is trivial in all three Thief games. But if you can accept that a magic potion will restore your health, what's the big deal about food restoring your health? It's not like health potions exist in reality, so the suspension of disbelief required for both mechanisms is the same.

[Thieffanman]

Do you want to see the traditional system back in T4 - health potion, fruit and meat etc.
Or perhaps you have other ideas?

Discuss... :)

I like the traditional health system; it allowed for more focus on the missions.

I also liked the fountains in TDS that would heal you when you drank from them (ie. the ones the Pagans/ Hammerites kept).

--Thieffanman

[ToMegaTherion]

For people who hated that food gave you health back, can you explain to me what your problem is? I don't actually care either way, because as I've said before, I think regaining your health is trivial in all three Thief games. But if you can accept that a magic potion will restore your health, what's the big deal about food restoring your health? It's not like health potions exist in reality, so the suspension of disbelief required for both mechanisms is the same.

The reasoning runs as follows: healing potions don't exist in my life, so if you introduce them, that's fine (because Thief is a magical world and I have no problem with that). But I do know how food operates, because that exists in my life, and it doesn't heal arrow wounds. Now there's no reason why you can't explain why food in Thief is different from food in my life, but this was never done, and chances are the explanation would come across as fairly cheesy, so it would only be a good idea to do this if food regeneration was an important mechanic whose removal would negatively affect gameplay. I don't think it satisfies this either.

I think it is important in fantasy settings that things that really exist either work as I expect, or a good explanation is offered about why they don't. Otherwise it's just weird.

[Platinumoxicity]

Brings them plumsies backs so we cans eaters thems.

[TeoRocker]

food shouldn't restore health, but Garret can have hunger, so we have to eat from time to time, or his energy will lower.

No, no, no no no no!

It's things like this that I hate in modern games. It's not a neat idea either; it has been done way too many times already, it's not even an "idea" anymore. I seriously can't understand why people get excited about lame gimmicks like this.

How is that making a game any better? And can't we just assume that Garrett eats in between missions? Why does everything have to be fully "realistic"? If I wanted realism I'd go become a real Thief.

Eating as much as you like in a game, not getting fat because of it and even replenishing health while at it does not make an inferior game. THIS IS JUST A VIDEOGAME.

Seriously, guys, come on :hmm:

My two cents: You're not supposed to take damage in the first place, this is not a shooter. A regeneration of up to 1/8th-1/4th of the health is acceptable (but I'd rather that doesn't happen) maybe depending on the difficulty setting. Having a few potions here and there in the levels and maybe some food is okay, as long as I don't end up technically invincible by being able to cure the wounds that could have killed 20 men.

[huzi73]

My 2 cents:the odds of food healing Garret should be different according 2 difficulty leves(1-4 on easy,1-7 on normal,1-13 on expert)or something like that,generally,if im caught/injured,i simply quickload.(infact,i dont think i've ever used a healing potion when i was seriously playing a mission...)no health regen,that concept exist in action games in order to keep gameplay fast and action focused,clearly,that isnt the point of thief,infact,its the complete opposite.(though regen could exist on easy for ther casual market,who would otherwise be discouraged from buying the game in the 1st place..)

[kabatta]

I believe that the health regeneration was a concept in games where you have to hack and slash through tons of enemies. In the Thief universe where you have a relatively low number of enemies the said concept is quite obsolete. You don't have to start a bare hands wrestling match with a burrick.
Allso, I can't be fully acceptative of the heal=movement idea. It was spectaculously implemented in resident evil, however, implementing it here would only ruin the idea of thief where you get a good slash from an npc and get to run away (not that a face to face confrontation is indicated). Even withouth potions one can make the bonehoard an undead free enviroment with the given resources. Regardin the food, I think that it should be reimplemented not because of the eventual 1 hp regeneration, but for the sound when it is eaten and for the sadism of making Garrett eat 15 pieces of cheese, 20 apples, 10 breads and 5-6 deer legs at the end of the level. The health system works just fine.

[esme]

food shouldn't restore health, but Garret can have hunger, so we have to eat from time to time, or his energy will lower.so if we adopt that level of realism then shouldn't he periodically have to go to the toilet ? I mean if he troughs down a barrell of apples to keep his health up then he's going to need bowels of steel to finish the mission without finding a loo

if we are going to have food at all then have the restore health type food, make it magical and special and rare

[DarthEnder]

What you people fail to realize about Garrett eating food for health is that he's hypoglycemic!


I always loved how healing potions in thief weren't instant heals. Your health came back slowly. Which meant you couldn't just chug one in the middle of a swordfight and expect it to save you.

You also can't just run through a damaging area like fire chugging pots.

It's more of a "okay I got away, time to heal" or "wow, I messed up that jump, time to heal"

It was basically health regen you had to activate yourself.

You make a really good point. It would indeed be very hard to balance it just right. The problem I see is that the health potion and food mechanic of the prior Thief games encourages potion hording.I think the more important thing it encourages you to do is to not get hurt.

[massimilianogoi]

food shouldn't restore health, but Garret can have hunger, so we have to eat from time to time, or his energy will lower.

This could be a nice idea! Glad to know it http://www.ttlg.com/forums/images/smilies/thumb.gif

[Hypevosa]

I liked the old system, food had a 10% chance or so to restore one health, so if you picked up 12 pieces and didn't want ot waste a healing potion yet, you could pop all your food and maybe get 2 or 3 health back. I also liked how the healing potions were gradual.

I don't care what games say, health is never restored by food. "Health" in those games is more of a drive to keep going and a level of fatigue. Magic and medicine genuinely restore what is real health i.e. state of injuries, where as food maybe delivers enough endorphins when consumed to give you a slight extra mental boost until you can get real medical attention. That's also why when you jump from a high place and break your legs it "kills" you. You have lost all mobility, and might as well die because an enemy will come around and finish you off.

You can also look at "Health" as more of a Hero's Luck or Hero's Favor meter. You get hit, true, but most of it's just grazes, flesh wounds. As your health goes down, your luck is running out until an enemy finally lands a fatal blow. Food can restore your confidence, increasing your luck a little bit (you believe you can and you will).

For the sake of ease in a game though it's called "Health" or "HP"... it's there for gameplay so that the player doesn't get frustrated when they die instantly because someone hit them in the head with an arrow. Some games like COD4 have sort of foregone health, you get shot and you're in intense pain, and then you die, or you just die.

Personally I like health in thief the way it is :D I like the potions that restore it and the fact that if you're lucky food will too. I don't think we need to have taking a piss or drinking water do it (ala duke nukem 3D). It really isn't broken, and it works rather well as it is, so don't mess with it! >_<