DARK ENGINE & Modding - All Discussion

[TheJoe]

Who exaclty owns the rights to the original Dark Engine? I think it would be amazing if someone cleaned it up id style and released it for building.

Why? Because look on the Thief forums - people all over the places are having huge problems running Thief, a source release means we can have source ports.

Updating - The original Thief can be easily enhanced to be up to scratch with Thief II - better sky, improved textures... There were a lot of things in Thief II I felt much more comfortable with over TDP.

Cross platform - A source port can be cross platform, playing Thief in Linux under Wine is very difficult. We could also potentially have console ports, Thief on 360, anyone?

Fan games - The Dark Engine could be rebuilt and used to create new fan games, whether fighting with SHODAN System Shock style or sneaking through a fat nobleman's mansion in a fan Thief game.

Commercial games - Yes, some small time company could build their own Dark game and sell it. Do we really need fancy schmancy graphics and engines these days? DNF was only going to be Unreal! (and it was unreal!:lol:)

So please - he who owns the rights to Dark, step forward, open that heart of yours and GPL Dark. If no one owns it anymore, why isn't it available in the public domain? Think about it.

[Vladimyre]

Just would hope/like to see the developers really craft something that allows for easy modding. The mod community for thief is huge and this could only greatly increase support long term for the project. There are a lot of really talented modder's out there. Doing this would have a serious positive impact for Thief IV.

I know it's early in the development but keeping this in mind from the start could be very fruitful further down the line.

[René]

Eidos owns it! The rogues over at TTLG (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=83) have a formal request going and we're checking into it. Can't promise anything right now but we'll see!

[Subjective Effect]

Agreed. Thief's mod and FM community must be the largest of any game in terms of productiveness. There must be at least 500 FMs out by now. There were 400 in 2004 already.

Then we have Thievery and The Dark Mod.

Sadly Nightblade has closed down :(

[TheJoe]

Do it! DO IT!

Make the world a happier place where the Dark Engine can roam free.

[VIKTORIA]

Just would hope/like to see the developers really craft something that allows for easy modding. The mod community for thief is huge and this could only greatly increase support long term for the project. There are a lot of really talented modder's out there. Doing this would have a serious positive impact for Thief IV.

I know it's early in the development but keeping this in mind from the start could be very fruitful further down the line.


Absolutely. :cool: :thumb:

[Thievingtaffer]

Agreed. Thief's mod and FM community must be the largest of any game in terms of productiveness. There must be at least 500 FMs out by now. There were 400 in 2004 already.

According to The Petition asking for the release of the Dark Engine's Source Code (http://www.petitiononline.com/ThiefSrc/petition.html), there are over 800 FMs in existence.

[Vladimyre]

Oh and I take back every bad thing I've ever said about Canada...well except the whole Brian Adams thing... ;)

I don't know if it's possible to forgive that one. *laugh*

Seriously, I'm actually optimisitic about this iteration of Thief, I can already tell the dev's are really looking for serious input. It'll be nice to see another studio's take on this, and I think you've got the core down mood wise so far. Thief was best played at night in a dark room IMHO the sound just plays a key roll in the series too. Good luck on the project! :)

[cobakka]

Eidos owns it! The rogues over at TTLG (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=83) have a formal request going and we're checking into it. Can't promise anything right now but we'll see!

You guys rock :)

[Dominus]

Thanks René! That would make history!

[Princess_Frosty]

Epic.

[Pyryp]

Agreed. Thief's mod and FM community must be the largest of any game in terms of productiveness. There must be at least 500 FMs out by now. There were 400 in 2004 already.Take a look at the elder scrolls modding community.

[Judith]

Just would hope/like to see the developers really craft something that allows for easy modding.

There isn't anything like that any longer :) High-quality maps take long time to be built and you need to know how to use certain external 3d apps like Maya, 3dsmax, Blender, Zbrush or Mudbox - assuming you'd want to create something really unique.

Otherwise it will be less demanding, usually devs create and use "tilesets" of assets, allowing them to create environments they want in more meaningful manner. Releasing the editor would mean FM makers will have access to these resources.

And that's only the map making thing, without taking modding into account, which was never easy either :) You have to learn the basics of the game language and it's structure if you want to create anything more than just a custom script.

But for this moment, my questions are:

- Will the editor package be allowed for public distribution, i.e. shipped with the game? (hopefully, yes)

- Is the interface layout user friendly? How easy/hard it is to work with material/static mesh/sound/script editor? How many external formats will it import, etc. (Unreal Engine 3.0 is an excellent example of user-friendly interface and it's supporting multiple image/sound/static mesh formats).

- What kind of "world" it is?
a) subtractive, where you cut your way out of the infinite mass?
b) additive, the infinite void, where you add things and the visibility is based on BSP and mesh occlusion, rather than zone portals? (this is more frequent these days, I guess)

And a few more, but I guess first I (we)'d like to know whether ti's possible to hand the technology you're working on to your fans someday ;)

[BrokenArts]

Speaking of FM's, there are some killer FM's coming out very soon for T2!! Hammerite Emperium, and The Rose Cottage soon enough. Both are stellar!

[cobakka]

http://www.petitiononline.com/ThiefSrc/

Sign the petition! :D

[Unstoppable]

In case none of you ever heard of this great mod made by BlackCatGames. Check it out at http://www.ThieveryUT.com. For the original Unreal Tournament (1999) which you can get for pennies on the dollar on Ebay. The mod is free and there are a handful of servers. I recommend the all seeing eye program to view the servers. Plus with the community coming together on these forums there are bound to be new servers to accomodate the masses. It's really great game play.

The A.I. is well done as is the movement characters (Thieves or Guards), levels, atmosphere, etc. It all comes together really well for an online mod and deserves the more attention. :thumb:

[Spider Tombs]

i play the FM's all the time!
they just HAVE to release the tools for this.
i hope they do.

[Tiptoe]

I really hope we get some type of modding tools for Thief4. Cause I really love modding games. In my opinion, every single player game should be moddable. It's one of the things that makes single player games so great.

Oddly enough though, I never felt the need to modify anything in Deadly Shadows, because I loved the game just the way it was.

Mind you, speaking as an wannabe artist/3D modeler, if I'd had some way to easily add my own art assets to the game, I'd definitely have made some graphical improvements :D.

[The Magpie]

It would mean so much. So. Much. And it would, upon release, create an amazing amount of buzz for the franchise, much more than if the source of any of its contemporary titles was released.

Also, bump.

--
L.

[ZylonBane]

Thanks René! That would make history!
No it wouldn't. History was made back when id released the source code to Doom. Eidos releasing the Dark Engine source would just be them finally getting with the times.

[Tohtori]

It would really be nice to see dark engine opened and have new life like Doom, Quake and Unreal.

[Belboz]

Eidos own the code, but the code apparently dissapeared in an Eidos reshuffle about 8 years ago. The code was on a computer from looking glass studios, ionstorm had the computer for a while, then ionstorm went down the tubes and the code dissappeared soon after. Or its locked away in a vault somewhere deep under Edios headquarters, guarded by burricks and undead, and you need to be Garrett to actually get anywhere near it.

[Direlord]

Or its locked away in a vault somewhere deep under Edios headquarters, guarded by burricks and undead, and you need to be Garrett to actually get anywhere near it.

Time to send in Stephen Russell!

[tender19]

I was wondering. I'm hoping for a highly customizable Thief-game, but only if that doesn't sacrifice diversity and richness. So I thought it would be nice if EM would consider making DLC-s (they are popular, but not really great things), but not levels: tools, textures and models, Fan Mission-editors and such. There is so much creativity in the world: look at the best FMs for 1 and 2. An official help would make things easier. What do you think?

[DarthEnder]

I would certainly love another Thief game that gets the same kind of mod community and T1 and T2 did.

But, like you said, that takes tools.

[Henke123]

I really hope they release a modding tool because that makes the game last so much longer.

Making Thi4f as customizable as TES III & IV would be nice, but the most important things that should be possible is to create missions, textures and models.

[TheJoe]

time to send in stephen russell!

do it!!

[vasanx]

Or its locked away in a vault somewhere deep under Edios headquarters, guarded by burricks and undead, and you need to be Garrett to actually get anywhere near it.

aahahahahhahahhahah.

Good one!

[Vladimyre]

MODing and FM's are a great way to get noticed too and get som experience under your belt if you are looking to get into the business side of games.

[Belboz]

If they are using one of the engines that tomb raider used, then its building buildings and terrain and objects, and charaters in 3dmax then the editor itself is just an empty world and the objects from 3dmax are imported in and joined together, or placed.in the world, then its probably lua scripts that are used to make everything move.

[Malau]

Eidos owns it! The rogues over at TTLG (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=83) have a formal request going and we're checking into it. Can't promise anything right now but we'll see!


This is good news !
It should be easy for a senior Eidos figure to find this out - even if it is a NO, then we will at least know once and for all.

[Sykyrys]

Is there going to be something that will allow you to create your own Thief missions?

One of the biggest problems I had with the Thief series is that it ended.

You couldn't create your own missions.

Oo I'm definitely all for the idea of being able to create new missions once you've beaten the game. Will there be any way to do this?

[GmanPro]

Do a search for Thief fan missions. There is quite a large community making them.

[VIKTORIA]

Is there going to be something that will allow you to create your own Thief missions?

One of the biggest problems I had with the Thief series is that it ended.

You couldn't create your own missions.

Oo I'm definitely all for the idea of being able to create new missions once you've beaten the game. Will there be any way to do this?


I've merged your post into the current discussion thread.
Also, check out "Chronicles" thread, pinned to top of this board for links. :)
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88481

[huzi73]

Im surprised no one has made an attempt to remake THIEF GOLD/TMA using the TDS engine.That would be a blast...

[kin]

Im surprised no one has made an attempt to remake THIEF GOLD/TMA using the TDS engine.That would be a blast...
The game would end by jumping in the well to Baford's mansion. You see there is no swimable water in TDS.:lol:
Not to mention rope arrows a core gameplay element.

[hexhunter]

Crytek games have map editors don't they, that's the only good example I've seen of an intuitive map editor since, well, forever. It would be very good to see an editor which is easy to use, then we would get more FMs, and the really good ones should come out more often, of course it has to be suitable for thief games...

If they were to confirm an editor that would up the hype a bit too.

[huzi73]

The game would end by jumping in the well to Baford's mansion. You see there is no swimable water in TDS.:lol:
Not to mention rope arrows a core gameplay element.

good point:scratch::mad2::lol:

[Durinda D'Bry]

While Thief DP/Gold/MA/DS are greatest games I think not many fans could live just in replaying original content over all these years. FM authors and community did the main work to support franchise and it should be editor released for Thief 4. I hope Eidos understood this and there would be no silence about editor release as it was with DS.

[hexhunter]

I forgot to say it would be important that the software to play FMs should be included with the game, it'd be annoying if you had the editor to make missions but no darkloader like software to help you play it. And if possible consoles should be able to play them to.

[hawk047]

Sadly Nightblade has closed down :(

Watch thou words brother. There are SP elitists about.O.o

[TheJoe]

So what's the situation, Skipper?

[esme]

Eidos own the code, but the code apparently dissapeared in an Eidos reshuffle about 8 years ago. The code was on a computer from looking glass studios, ionstorm had the computer for a while, then ionstorm went down the tubes and the code dissappeared soon after. Or its locked away in a vault somewhere deep under Edios headquarters, guarded by burricks and undead, and you need to be Garrett to actually get anywhere near it.please tell me you are kidding

the source code was on a single computer and there was no backup :eek:

the very first thing I learned in my very first IT job was always make sure there's a backup and if there isn't one make one

[Holodoctor]

It would be nice to see the engine going open source. After all, you give the modding scene new joy and opportunity and don't really lose any technological advantages by releasing the engine code.

The reason Id software can do this so easily is that they write all their stuff by themselves. They don't use any middleware. I'm not sure how Eidos works.

[NewHorizon]

The reason Id software can do this so easily is that they write all their stuff by themselves. They don't use any middleware. I'm not sure how Eidos works.

Well, the original engine wasn't written by Eidos, it was written from the ground up by Looking Glass Studios. It's their engine.

[citywolfdreams]

I had a thought about convincing Eidos to release a level editor. If Eidos actually turns out a good product here, every fan on this forum is going to want them to release the level editor, since part of what made the Thief community so strong was the availability of fanmade mission. However, releasing the level editor is not a good business move for Eidos, since they make no money off of it and competitors may try to use it. In other words, the interests of the fan community and Eidos are at odds here. So what is needed would be a way to make the level editor profitable for Eidos, so that they are motivated to release it into the community. My thought is that Eidos could coopt the Thief community into their business plan. In other words, release the level editor, but in order to get it, you have to sign one of those disclaimer forms saying that anything you design with it is property of Eidos. Eidos could also host a server for people to download fan missions (the level editor would be built to specifically download to the Eidos server).

So, Eidos would not be releasing their code but hosting a server. What are they getting from it, you ask? Basically, an entire development team working for them for free. Since the levels are property of Eidos, they can pick and choose the very best ones, clean them up a little, and tie them together into a narrative to make either a Thief 4 sequel, or Thief 4 downloadable content missions (in much the same way as Fallout 3 is selling DLC expansions).

In my opinion, Thief fans are some of the most dedicated developers out there, because they do this not for money but simply because they are passionate about it. Take a look at some of the fan-made Thief 2X missions and look at the incredible amount of detail that was put into every single spot. Can you picture any commercial developer putting in that amount of work? They simply don't have the time. By releasing a level editor and some of the source code, on the other hand, Eidos would have DLC expansions that virtually write themselves. In other words, it would be in their financial interests to work WITH the fan community rather than against it.

Some people might object to creating fan missions that Eidos ends up making money off of, but consider this:

1) The more profitable Thief 4 is for Eidos, the more resources they will put in towards making a sequel. You'd be making levels anyway even if nobody paid anything for it, so why begrudge them a little extra cash?

2) Eidos is doing a lot of the hard groundwork in terms of making the AI, source code, a realistic physics system, etc. And if you could do all that yourself, you'd be making your own computer game.

3) Since only the best missions would be picked, it would be a good resume builder for aspiring game programmers out there. Eidos might even consider hiring those people for their next Thief game.

Thoughts? Comments? Yells of outrage? ;)

[jtr7]

More of us are willing to pay for the editor, as an incentive for them to release it, if they don't think packaging it with Thief 4, or putting it up as a free download are worth their time and energy and money they would pay employees to make available.

But I'm up for a radical new way of working with the fans, if they have some cool ideas.

[Hypevosa]

Well I know that if they used my content to make money I'd like to be comped somehow, like at least being allowed to have the DLC for free ya know?

[esme]

2) Eidos is doing a lot of the hard groundwork in terms of making the AI, source code, a realistic physics system, etc. And if you could do all that yourself, you'd be making your own computer game.a bit like the guys doing the Dark Mod ?

which apart from the Doom 3 engine requirement is going to be completely free and there are strong rumours that the Doom engine is going open source so that may become free too

I'm all for Eidos making money, but I'm not so sure about making it from fan generated content

if they want to sell us the editor then I'll happily consider buying it providing I can make missions and resources to the exact same standard as Thief 4, none of this "oh we wrote special code that's dynamically loaded and is outside the purview of the editor" or "you also need a 3d object design tool that can output in XYZ format" it all needs to be in the package along with clear and concise instructions about how it's used, not stuff that needs five years of work to figure out and requires fans to make on line wiki's containing their best guesses, but I rather think they'll be using commercial design tools and won't be able to release them because of licensing issues

so if they want to give us the editor in the same style as previous releases and let us figure things out for ourselves I'll be happy with that too

I think they need to look at merchandising if they want to make money out of the franchise, the first three releases in the series had little or no merchandising, thief fans will crawl over broken glass to get some decent authentic merchandise, see http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88517

[Subjective Effect]

Very few people (idiots) would moan about Eidos making money out of FMs. All of the FMs for Thief 1, 2 and 3 are free and are distributed free. If Eidos makes money out of more people buying T4 for FMS so what? That's a good thing.

The only way anyone could or would moan would be if Eidos gathered a load of fan mad stuff, demanded it deleted on the free to DL servers and enforced that legally, AND THEN tried to charge for DLC that the fans had made.

2 things would happen.
1. No more fan made stuff for Thief 4 ever.
2. Protest servers STILL hosting all the stuff for free or people on non-Eidos forums arranging for secret DLs and disc swaps.

This is never going to happen.

[DarthEnder]

To be fair, in this day and age, a Level Editor is already profitable.

The idea is basically to keep people from selling their game back to Gamestop when they finish it for as long as possible. Because every game sold back to the store that gets resold as used is a lost sale for them.

A game that has new content coming from the fans all the time is one that's not as likely to get sold back.

It's been working with Fallout 3 with it's constant stream of DLC. And a level editor is a very cheap way to achieve this by having the community essentially make all your DLC for you.

[Subjective Effect]

Yup.

[NewHorizon]

there are strong rumours that the Doom engine is going open source so that may become free too


This is not a rumor. John Carmack has stated a number of times that the Doom 3 source code would be made open source, like the majority of their engines have been. Id software has a tradition of releasing their previous generation tech....unlike some companies.

On the subject of charging for Fan Made content. No way in hell would I ever stand for that, and no fan mission author should either. It's up to the developers to make a good game and earn that dollar. If it weren't for the fans having kept this community alive for ten years, there wouldn't be a Thief 4 right now for them to make. They need to put their thinking caps on and market some merchandise to make this type of game profitable....rather than pandering to the masses and homogenizing the game.

[DarknessFalls]

I wouldn't want my creation to be the sole property of Eidos for them to own, store, sell and distribute however they please. Seeing such a disclaimer is the main reason I never made FMs for another game I liked that was put out by Buena Vista Interactive (Disney). I'm not an FM map author, in general, so maybe all FM toolsets have this same disclaimer? If so, I don't like or agree with it.

Granted, it's using their toolset, yes -- but that shouldn't therefore mean my storyline, script, voicework, maps, characters, etc. should be owned/controlled by them.

They can sell the toolset, I'd be more okay with that.

[kaekaelyn]

I don't like this idea. It goes against what I believe is the spirit of fan missions. If that makes me an idiot, so be it. I want the Thief franchise to continue, but not like this.

[TheJoe]

I'm going to bump this in the hope of hearing something new.

I return to bump once again as the importance of a Dark Source release can not be stressed enough.

[taffer1]

:scratch:

I don't like this idea. It goes against what I believe is the spirit of fan missions. If that makes me an idiot, so be it. I want the Thief franchise to continue, but not like this.

Not an idiot, just hard to understand why. :scratch: You could make your own levels to fit your own spirit.

I wouldn't want my creation to be the sole property of Eidos for them to own, store, sell and distribute however they please.


You'd go put it online with the rest of the created levels. They'd belong to everyone, I bet you'd end up with hundreds of levels.


They can sell the toolset, I'd be more okay with that.


No, not for sale. They'd just put a copy of it with the game. Or make it available to download. The same editor they use to make the game with, isnt that how they make these games?

[jtr7]

It's not just the editor that is used. In both cases with DromEd and especially T3Ed, they had to extricate code that tied it in with other applications and inter-departmental communications tools. The software used to make the object and AI models, textures and skins, animations, sound FX vocals and music, and common repositories where resources were dumped for any other person to go in and pick up for use in their mission design, are not included. After Eidos approved letting the Thief community have T3Ed (it wasn't even called that, yet--some called it TEd [Thief Editor]), a couple of devs--Alex Brandon and Jordan Thomas--literally worked after hours scrambling to snip out all the cords and cleaning it up so it was useable by the fans without all the industry applications. They had to work fast and late into the evenings (early mornings?) to get it out the door before ISA closed its doors for the last time.

[Pieter888]

I need that source code like Benny needs booze!

[TheJoe]

I think we should get this stickied.

[VIKTORIA]

^
No need; it is listed in "Keeper Diary" thread.