T4 - GARRETT: main character, or not? [Archive]

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 06:52 AM

I disagree 100% and hope to God this doesn't happen. Let me put this simply:

If the protagonist is Garrett I will be waiting at the game store at 9am sharp upon release.

If the protagonist changes it will totally ruin my enthusiasm for this title to the point where I will check reviews and forums very carefully before buying.

Garrett is THAT important to this series.

I'd agree that Garrett is probably one of (if not the) most important part of the series (I must add, Thief is my favourite game of all time, Garrett is my favourite character) But on a strictly narrative look at things, at the end of T3, Garrett was in a position of huge power. He should be in it (if only keep Stephen Russel on the job! :D) But it would be nice to see them continue progressively from where T3 ended off.

It would be awesome having him in the background constantly screwing with your own actions within the game as I see it. :D

Garrett is a LONER. He would never become the "Boss of the Underworld". We don't need another Lara Croft, play Velvet Assassin if Garrett bothers you that much.

Not my point. He should be a loner. But now a loner invested with the remaining powers of the Keepers, forcing him to balance his own stubbornly independent methodology with the responsibilities forced on him.

Illuminus

05-11-2009, 06:53 AM

Wow, pro Garrett in here. Am i going to be stoned to death voting for that little girl in T3 to take main role? :poke:

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 06:56 AM

Wow, pro Garrett in here. Am i going to be stoned to death voting for that little girl in T3 to take main role? :poke:

I'll stand with you :D

Though perhaps not the girl. I'd rather have someone not "in the loop" as such.

Barsavian

05-11-2009, 06:58 AM

Wow, pro Garrett in here. Am i going to be stoned to death voting for that little girl in T3 to take main role? :poke:

That would be going far too easy, how about burning at the stake under a rain of salt and feces.

My enthusiam for the game will go from "im buying it the moment it comes out" to "wonder if there are any torrents out" if I find out something like that is going to happen.

kin

05-11-2009, 07:03 AM

Garrett is thief
Garrett is fail safe
Garrett is The thief
Garrett is Stephen Russel
Garrett is what i am going to buy
Do i have to say more?

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 07:04 AM

How about the mechanic Call of Juarez used, alternating between characters?

Danius

05-11-2009, 07:05 AM

I think Garrett should remain as the protagonist in T4. Garrett's personality and satiric comments has become a part of Thief and it would not be the same without him.

The girl from the end of T3 could have part in the game (maybe as a keeper trainee) but should not be a playable character.

Nate

05-11-2009, 07:19 AM

Well, going from the ending of DS, there are some interesting options for the devs.

Garrett as the main character is what I would prefer. However, I could deal with having to occasionally play through a mission as that girl/boy (?) at the end of DS (for example)....from now on, I am going to call that boy/girl PAT.

Please get Stephen Russell to do the voice of Garrett though if at all possible.

I personally would love to see Garrett heading/building his own Thieves/Keeper guild. The main opponents this time around could be the Hand Mages who could be trying to fill in the power vacuum left by the demise of the Keepers (and the decline of the Pagans and Hammers).

Even if Garrett isn't going to be a part of the game, I'll still keep an open mind about it.

geekytom

05-11-2009, 07:27 AM

Hmmm, don't know what to say about this one. The narrative of the third game did seem to hand over the mantle of main protagonist over to that girl. However I'm willing to bet that the writer wasn’t planning on a fourth game because it did rap the story arch up nicely.

I'm sure there is a way to write in Garrett as the main character again as there would obviously be a large back lash he didn’t make some sort of appearance.

Just thinking out loud here; but what would peoples reactions be to Garrett having a son? You could then keep the same voice actor and same personality (like father like son etc) but have the added bonus of him trying to live up to his father's deeds in the previous games. Maybe even go up against him on certain levels (he could even be the big bad at the end of the game, blasphemes I know.)

column5

05-11-2009, 07:27 AM

I would definitely prefer for Garrett to be the player character. He is one of the best characters in the history of computer gaming, after all. Two key points though: Stephen Russell is Garrett--don't replace him with another voice actor. Also, Garrett and The City are inseparable--if you choose to move the setting (in place or time), then don't use Garrett.

Tatyana's Flowers

05-11-2009, 07:32 AM

Garrett,who else?! Stephen Russell,of course :)

TazmanianD

05-11-2009, 07:32 AM

I am a huge fan of the Thief series and love Garrett, but I personally would not be unhappy if they moved on to a different story arc and left out Garrett altogether. I don't play Thief over and over because of Garrett, I play because they are great games with great game play. I enjoyed Thief 2x even though the protagonist wasn't Garrett.

That said, I would be very satisfied with another game with Garrett, but I do think that it has to be Stephen Russel. I've played sequels where they changed the voice actor and it really sucks especially if the original actor was so great.

SgtSausagepants

05-11-2009, 07:33 AM

Smiffydude

05-11-2009, 07:34 AM

Keep Garrett

Durinda D'Bry

05-11-2009, 07:42 AM

My opinion is that not just Garrett who made Thief game great. There is the City, misterious and gloomy steam punk atmosphere - ancient magic together with raising technologies, bad guy fighting from shadows with good but mostly bad forces... There might be new character but story should not be moved to modern times! There could be Garrett successor but afraid it is hard to avoid cliche with Thef dynasty:)

NathanGPLC

05-11-2009, 07:43 AM

From the perspective of a game developer and an author, clearly Garrett is important to the franchise, but a coherent plot is important to Thief4 specifically. I think I would personally have more fun playing as Garrett than as another thief, but only if the story can accommodate that without bending and breaking the world and the gameplay.

It's worth noting that being powerful doesn't make Garrett unplayable. He's always been powerful; he is perfectly stealthy, can pick any lock, and can carry unbelievable huge amounts of gold--- :rolleyes: --- the only variable factor is player skill. The same can still apply if he has mystical powers; you just need to balance them so they are both necessary to success (basically, they don't just make the game easier/Garrett invulnerable) and require the appropriate level of skill and timing to use.

Blessed be,
~Nathan

Abru

05-11-2009, 07:44 AM

Garrett should remain. Definitely. :)

Necros

05-11-2009, 07:50 AM

Garrett is thief
Garrett is fail safe
Garrett is The thief
Garrett is Stephen Russel
Garrett is what i am going to buy
Do i have to say more?
QFT! :thumb:

I mean, is this really a question? :confused: :rolleyes: Thief = Garrett & Stephen Russell. :cool:

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 07:54 AM

Stocolit

05-11-2009, 08:04 AM

Garrett has to remain the main character WITH Stephen Russell. But, There can always be an other secondary playable character as well. Just.. don't give it to much space. By the way, I DON'T want to see an aged Garrett, don't do like MGS and have a 70 years old Garrett, that would be horrible imo.

BentlyTCow

05-11-2009, 08:05 AM

I think the problem is that a lot of people would like to pretend Deadly Shadows never happened.. like they're waiting to find out what *really* happened after Thief II. If that won't work then maybe the power of the glyphs is failing, etc.

So I guess that's a vote for Garrett/Stephen.

Phaid

05-11-2009, 08:07 AM

QFT! :thumb:

I mean, is this really a question? :confused: :rolleyes: Thief = Garrett & Stephen Russell. :cool:

The fact they're even ASKING this kind of question leads me to believe the game will suck.:hmm:

Oh, and as far as the City - true, but it was Garrett's charisma, personality, personal history and voice that made the whole setting such believable. You can't have one without other, so don't screw the series up by ditching Garrett and replacing him with someone everyone will hate and have problems getting attached to.

TheJoe

05-11-2009, 08:07 AM

Who else could be Thief? "/

TSFroggy

05-11-2009, 08:08 AM

Um, Garrett = only win for the Thief series. Little girl = not so much.

MAYBE alternating between different characters, but Garrett better not die either.

And Stephen Russell is the only good Garrett.

Garrett Vega

05-11-2009, 08:13 AM

I think we should be able to only play as Garrett, but now that he's a keeper he should have improved skills.
The girl would make a nice subplot, with Garrett teaching her and saving from trouble when she screws up.

Goliath The Thief

05-11-2009, 08:15 AM

Anyone played Thief 2 : Shadows of the Metal Age? Fan-made unofficial expansion for Thief 2, with a different character, and totally as awesome as the original games. Anyone with a doubt about having Thief without Garrett should try this to settle their opinion.

http://www.thief2x.com/

Try it, seriously!

Queue2

05-11-2009, 08:15 AM

Garrett is a compelling character, and Thief is his story--the title is not just a brand-name for a series. Regardless of T3 and its events, the story of Garrett can, and should, be continued.

Without Garrett there is no Thief.

Thievingtaffer

05-11-2009, 08:16 AM

Garrett and Stephen Russel are a must. I think it would fatally wound the game if both of those were not the main characters. I remember last year when Eric Brosius was giving a speech at Boston College he was talking about how there are union issues when hiring voice actors, and if I recall correctly, Stephen Russel is not a union voice actor, which means that they could not hire any union voice actors, which puts them in a pickle. But take that for what it's worth: (me possibly misremembering Eric's speech when he was talking about the situation 7 years before that).

But the bottom line is, I'd be totally unenthused about the game without Garrett.

Garrett Vega

05-11-2009, 08:17 AM

TSFroggy

05-11-2009, 08:18 AM

Tried it, didn't like it. Without Garrett it's just not the same.

Agreed 100%. Thief 2x was one of the most well done fan mission packs in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still not Garrett in those missions. It simply would not be the same.

Bloodwolf806

05-11-2009, 08:22 AM

Garret needs to return.

HellKittyDan

05-11-2009, 08:35 AM

1. The player plays the Apprentice. Garrett is her mentor and is HEAVILY involved. He gives almost all the mission briefings and we hear a LOT of dialogue from Stephen Russell. Perhaps he even tags along on a few missions or comments remotely via glyph magic or steampunk walky talky. Additionally, we need to have a well-cast voice for the apprentice. She has to have as defined a personality as Garrett does.

My vote is for this. I always imagined Laura Bailey (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1154161/) as voicing the adult version of the girl from the end of DS.

Barsavian

05-11-2009, 08:39 AM

Actually there is one way around not playing garret that would be acceptable, playing as Benny.

Thievingtaffer

05-11-2009, 08:44 AM

T2X was good, but no substitute for Garrett. His 'out for himself' attitude, and quick wit are a staple for the games immersion, atmosphere, and overall feel.

Nate

05-11-2009, 08:47 AM

Just pointing out that being the 'True Keeper' doesn't necessarily give Garrett glyph magic. I think all glyth magic was wiped out at the end of DS.

Besides....since when did Garrett bother to use glyph magic even when it was still available to him.

Bono

05-11-2009, 09:23 AM

I think that Garrett's story is pretty much over.

I will be happy if EM tries to make the game with a new, fresh character, while Garrett remains an important side-character or even a main foe.

qolelis

05-11-2009, 09:30 AM

Being too conservative can also ruin a game. If everything was kept as it always has been why bother with T4, you might as well stick with T1&2.

I have nothing against Garrett per se, but my opinion is that the story of Thief is not the story of Garrett, but rather the story of The City. Sure, Garrett has so far been playing an important role in The City's development, so he should be either in as a secondary character or somehow referenced, if not the main character, but Thief is not about Garrett. I think that The City's story must be told first and foremost, with or without Garrett.

I have no strong opinion for or against Garrett, my only wish is that the developers study The City in T1&2 (and 3 for story at least) and how it has developed, base the story on what they learn and if Garrett fits with the story keep him in, but if not, then leave him out (I like Garrett, so I would still want him being referenced, though).

If you keep Garrett in, be sure to study his character's development through the trilogy.

In many FMs Garrett is sort of a legend, especially among guards. Everyone seems to know about him, but few have actually seen him. Using Garrett as the main character once again may ruin the mystery and the magic.

I feel that the story of Garrett ended when the trilogy ended, at least as a main character.

For example this:
1. The player plays the Apprentice. Garrett is her mentor and is HEAVILY involved. He gives almost all the mission briefings and we hear a LOT of dialogue from Stephen Russell. Perhaps he even tags along on a few missions or comments remotely via glyph magic or steampunk walky talky. Additionally, we need to have a well-cast voice for the apprentice. She has to have as defined a personality as Garrett does.

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 09:48 AM

Being too conservative can also ruin a game. If everything was kept as it always has been why bother with T4, you might as well stick with T1&2.

I have nothing against Garrett per se, but my opinion is that the story of Thief is not the story of Garrett, but rather the story of The City. Sure, Garrett has so far been playing an important role in The City's development, so he should be either in as a secondary character or somehow referenced, if not the main character, but Thief is not about Garrett. I think that The City's story must be told first and foremost, with or without Garrett.

I have no strong opinion for or against Garrett, my only wish is that the developers study The City in T1&2 (and 3 for story at least) and how it has developed, base the story on what they learn and if Garrett fits with the story keep him in, but if not, then leave him out (I like Garrett, so I would still want him being referenced, though).

If you keep Garrett in, be sure to study his character's development through the trilogy.

In many FMs Garrett is sort of a legend, especially among guards. Everyone seems to know about him, but few have actually seen him. Using Garrett as the main character once again may ruin the mystery and the magic.

I feel that the story of Garrett ended when the trilogy ended, at least as a main character.

More or less exactly how I feel, particularly regarding Garrett as a legend in the city. In many ways, I feel Garrett's story as the protagonist has run its course. How many times can Garrett honestly save the city despite not really wanting to before it gets old? I want Thief 4 to use the license, not sell out by whacking Stephen Russel in a new mad-hat adventure around The City and call it Thief 4.

Garrett must be in it. And any replacement must be as well designed a character. The series must keep pushing the boundaries as it always has.

Nate

05-11-2009, 09:52 AM

Well, maybe Garrett is pissed with everybody for using him and trying to rip him off all the time. Maybe we get to play Garrett this time as the one who is out to destroy the city. lol

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 09:56 AM

Destroy the city? Garrett doesn't care nearly enough about the City for that! :D:D

He reminds me of Omar in the Wire really. He'll rip off the corrupt arseholes in the community, but at the end of the day, he's a part of the city, and couldn't live without it. That and his legendary mystique. If anyone's seen the Wire, there's an episode where kids in the street emulate Omar - that's what I would personally like to see. A character who's grown up seeing Garrett as some sort of legendary anti-Heroic figure who they seek to emulate without really understanding until they pick up his trail. Thus, T4 would infact revolve around Garrett without being him. Sounds good to me.

The best bit about it: You know Garrett would despite all that insipid hero-worship!

Crazyechidna

05-11-2009, 10:00 AM

Garrett must be a playable character in the game. It isn't a Thief game without Garrett; that being said, I like the idea of having another playable character (many have talked about the girl). It would be really cool if the successes of Garrett's mission(s) affect the mission of the other playable character and/or vice versa. Ex: Steal from a bank's vault early in the game causes the bank's vault to have added security and/or guards later in the game.

Still, Garrett must be the main character. If any other characters are playable, they should compose only one or two main missions or they should be optional/bonus missions.

Noceur

05-11-2009, 10:07 AM

Playing as Garrett is a huge part of the franchise, though.

How would they replace him without changing the mood set by his remarks and narration? And on top of that, they can't replace him with a clone... then they might've just kept Garrett.

In fact, I think they should.

Nate

05-11-2009, 10:17 AM

It wouldn't be the same without Garrett in a dark corner saying things like 'people suck!', 'friendship sucks!', 'you all suck!', and 'you suck, so I am going to take all your stuff!'. hehe

van_HellSing

05-11-2009, 10:25 AM

The industry has grown up, so some changes were necessary. The protagonist will now be called Garr4tt.

zeitshabba

05-11-2009, 10:25 AM

The personality of Garrett makes the charm of the game become an addiction. His bitter & biting commentary is priceless. But as its been said ad nausem, you cannot simply make another Thief with Garrett and without some cracked-out-beyond-the-X-files plot insanity to make it work.

What if the Thief story was retold, from the beginning, in a modern setting? The ability to retell the original story in a bad-ass revamping could be fantastic. For those who didn't catch the Thief bandwagon the first time around, this would be perfect. For the hardcore fans, they could expand upon the original storyline in depth and breadth regarding the relationships of everyone involved in the trilogy right from the beginning. Who would be the modern-day Keepers? Pagans? It could be fun...

Just an idea to try & reconcile the desire for more Garrett without a craptacular storyline.

Thievingtaffer

05-11-2009, 10:44 AM

Wait I have a question.
This quote comes from jtr over on the other forums:
Thief 4 A Long Way Off, No Systems Announced
11 May 2009 at 16:10:32 by Tim McDonald

Thief 4 is still very early in development, with no word of what systems it will be shipping on yet.

We spoke to Stéphane D'Astous, the general manager of Eidos-Montreal, who told us that the game has "been in the concept phase for approximately five to six months."

"In the world of gaming, there are mainly three phases - the concept, pre-production, and production - and right now we've reached our goals with the conceptual base, the story."

"We're going to be hiring approximately 40 people over the next six months - artists, programmers, designers, all the works. They'll be working on the next phase, which will be pre-production, so it's too early right now to mention any kind of a release window or SKUs that we'll be working on."

Personally, I can't imagine Thief not shipping on PC, and considering D'Astous also spoke about technology and hardware I'd imagine it'll appear on the more powerful consoles. For more on that, though, you'll have to wait for our full interview, which will be up later today.
This would suggest that the concept phase is over, which means that the story is written. If the story is written then EM already knows who the main character will be, making this thread nothing more than people wishing what it will be. I know they can't just come out and tell us just yet, but it still makes this thread feel a little useless.

nicked

05-11-2009, 11:00 AM

WhatsHisFace

05-11-2009, 11:05 AM

It honestly would not make sense to have Garrett come back as the main character. His story arch was concluded brilliantly with the ending of Thief 3. Bringing him back would just cheapen the whole thing... like a bad buddy-cop movie.

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 11:09 AM

Honestly, can someone please tell me why Garrett has to be the playable character? The Thief series has got a lot more going for it than one character, as good as that character is. And in narrative terms, it would require some dramatic changes to put him back in an appartment struggling to pay the rent - and that's who Garrett has always been. Up until T3's conclusion, which I might add, felt logical given all that had happened in all the games.

Now, I will agree, Garrett as a character must be in the game. But as a protagonist, I think it's time to mix it up.

abr4

05-11-2009, 11:12 AM

I wrote this in another forum before the announcement and subsequently before I saw this thread, but it fits perfectly in here as a response:

"Didn't know about the ending of the 3rd Thief, didn't even get halfway through it, because it was highly lacking in the magic which made the first two special. I couldn't name it for sure nowadays, but when I played it years back I never connected with that game. It was almost as if I was pretending to play a thief game.

A female thief as a foster child of Garrett who'd be the mentor in a fourth game might be a nice refreshing twist on the franchise, if they can get her just as cynical and sinister as Garrett used to be. I'd probably enjoy it more than if they tried to recreate the atmosphere of the first two games and failed (which I pretty much expect them to)."

So, yeah I vote for the girl to be the new protagonist, but she'd have to be somewhat seasoned, like in her early twenties. Nothing worse to a game than an adolescent main character who grows up over the course of the game.

And, repeating myself to stress the importance of this, she'd have to be as cynical as Garrett was for this to be any fun.

Phaid

05-11-2009, 11:12 AM

There are so many bad ideas in this thread it's difficult to comprehend.

If Garrett isn't the player character of Thief 4, I won't buy it, play it, or acknowledge it exists.

Actually I will play it just so I can have an informed opinion with which to launch tirades against how terrible it is.

Same here. If Garrett is not the main character, they might as well shove this game up their [censored]. I won't touch it, let alone buy it.

It honestly would not make sense to have Garrett come back as the main character. His story arch was concluded brilliantly with the ending of Thief 3. Bringing him back would just cheapen the whole thing... like a bad buddy-cop movie.

One could argue - why make Thief 4 at all? The story is over, the glyphs are gone, Hammerites and Pagans are happy yadda yadda. But Thief 4 is being made. And it's called THIEF 4.
That means something.

And, repeating myself to stress the importance of this, she'd have to be as cynical as Garrett was for this to be any fun.

Then why BOTHER with a new character at all? Is that what we want? Garrett with tits?

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 11:15 AM

Well indeed. You could argue why make Thief 4 at all. I've been thinking the same thing ever since the cutscenes rolled at the end of TDS.

But if anything, that means there's more to Thief than Garrett's story to be told. There was a lot more to Thief, than Garrett.

nicked

05-11-2009, 11:18 AM

Honestly, can someone please tell me why Garrett has to be the playable character? The Thief series has got a lot more going for it than one character, as good as that character is.

It'd be like making an Indiana Jones movie starring Shia LeBoeuf and without Harrison Ford in it. The city can be as atmospheric and wonderful as you like, but seeing it through the eyes of anyone but Garrett will cheapen the whole thing.

I'd accept any ridiculously contrived plot points to get Garrett as main character, over ditching him for the little girl from the end of Thief 3, which frankly was just a fourth-wall-breaking nod to the audience and not meant to be taken seriously as a major plot point.

Here's one for you: a prequel. Plenty of stuff Garrett could get up to after he's left the Keepers but before the events of Thief 1.

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 11:21 AM

Yeah, a prequel would certainly work - though they'ed have to avoid any real entanglement with the Pagans and Keepers - the former of which doesn't reveal itself to TTDP, and the latter of which Garrett doesn't have anything to do with until TTDP.

In a lot of ways, I'd actually like to see a remake of TTDP actually. But I'm probably in a minority there.

Regarding cheapening a sequel, I actually think having Garrett as the protagonist does that. It's sort of like making a sequel to Bioshock where you play a big-daddy because it was the poster boy of the first game... oh wait.

Phaid

05-11-2009, 11:31 AM

I'd accept any ridiculously contrived plot points to get Garrett as main character, over ditching him for the little girl from the end of Thief 3, which frankly was just a fourth-wall-breaking nod to the audience and not meant to be taken seriously as a major plot point.

THIS. THIS.
That's something I already pointed out - the ending of DS has a symbolic meaning, it was a wink-wink for fans of the series.

I like the Indiana Jones comparison. Saying that Garrett is not needed is like saying Indy isn't needed because "the series have always been about treasure hunting anyway" - just as stupid.

ByLaw

05-11-2009, 11:34 AM

Here's one idea on how to resolve this:
Garrett takes his protege under his wing, teaches her the tricks, just as the Keepers did for him, and she shows great promise. Then, just as Garrett left the keepers, the protege leaves him, only for something far more sinister - perhaps a shadow organization that replaces the Keepers (which I believe pretty much self-destructed, did they not?). She becomes involved in as either the central figure or a tool in the plot that unfolds, and becomes Garrett's nemesis. An older Garrett, world-weary but skilled as ever and still the loner - burned by the experience of trying to work with someone when he knows he works better alone - gets caught up and eventually exposes the plot and faces his protege/nemesis in a thief-on-thief final level of cat and mouse.

Phaid

05-11-2009, 11:37 AM

The whole idea of an apprentice is just cliche and stupid. Hooray, another "Anakin Skywalker/Obi Wan" (evil version) or "Luke Skywalker/Obi Wan or Yoda" (good version). Seriously, HELL NO!

HellKittyDan

05-11-2009, 11:37 AM

So, yeah I vote for the girl to be the new protagonist, but she'd have to be somewhat seasoned, like in her early twenties. Nothing worse to a game than an adolescent main character who grows up over the course of the game.

Someone in their early twenties is still just a kid, certainly not someone you'd consider a seasoned cynic.

GmanPro

05-11-2009, 11:41 AM

I can't believe people actually want to play as someone other than Garrett. Its mind boggling. Thief games are all about immersion. You need to be one character and you need to stay in first person (I never used 3rd person in T3).

nicked

05-11-2009, 11:42 AM

I can't believe people actually want to play as someone other than Garrett. Its mind boggling.

This. It makes my head spin.

Draz

05-11-2009, 11:46 AM

Garrett of course. Anyone else would just be a poor substitute.

benny

05-11-2009, 11:48 AM

I personally think that the ending for TDS tied things up well enough that I wouldn't disturb it or try to extend the story line beyond that. I think that in order to be Thief, it has to have Garrett (and Russell as the voice). If the Thief storyline had other characters that were really prominent in it (that were thieves), you could justify passing the torch to a new one. But the girl (?) at the ending of TDS is too weak of a connection to really branch off that way. I think Marla would be a better option actually. :nut:

With that line of thinking I'd have to say that the best setting would be previous to TDS sometime and again have it be centered on Garrett. So a prequel is an option. I think I'd even like it set in between some of the previous titles but I don't know of any games that have tried that, it might be too confusing. Seems all anyone does is prequel/sequel.

I am one of the minority too that would love a remake of TDP/TMA. Normally I'd be critical of something along those lines as simply being lazy, but we are talking about over a decade since the release of TDP I believe. And it is nice for EM because they have levels/plot/characters already designed they just need to update them and put their own creative contributions to them. Besides, it is a tried and tested success.

My $0.02

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 11:48 AM

I don't like the apprentice idea. Garrett wouldn't take an apprentice.

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 11:52 AM

I'd say that although this game would have to be exceptionally good to out-do Thief 2, it absolutely, positively must out-do TDS. Don't let this game be worse than TDS by taking Garrett out. The series doesn't deserve that after the dissappointments we experienced with TDS. It's like ripping the feet off a fly who's wings have already been ripped off.

Orest Reinn

05-11-2009, 11:53 AM

Garrett in Thief 4 would remind me making once another and another part of Rocky's adventures. Let Garrett remain a legend and give us another character.

And one more thing: please don't make saving the world aim of the game...

nicked

05-11-2009, 12:01 PM

What are you talking about? Rocky 4 was fantastic!

I'd also be interested in a remake of Thief 1, in a Tomb Raider Anniversary kinda way. I'd like to see Constantine's mansion in a modern engine that can handle Prey-like gravity bending and stuff like that. You could end up with the most awesome LSD-trip of a level ever.

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 12:02 PM

Definitely. Any number of TDP's levels would be outstanding in a new engine.

nicked

05-11-2009, 12:06 PM

Assuming the game isn't a remake, I'd still be very interested in seeing these missions return to the story. Most of my favourite missions from the originals are two-parters (that is to say, you revisit them later). Haunted Cathedral/Return to the Cathedral, The Lost City/Kidnap, The Sword/Escape, Undercover/Strange Bedfellows.

That was my single biggest disappointment with Thief Deadly Shadows, not being able to revisit a favourite location or two in a shiny new engine. There are infinite ways to incorporate classic levels into a new story, so please put at least one in! My vote would be Bafford's Manor or Cragscleft, for an ultimate nostalgia trip!

raindawg

05-11-2009, 12:09 PM

The player plays the Apprentice. Garrett is her mentor and is HEAVILY involved. He gives almost all the mission briefings and we hear a LOT of dialogue from Stephen Russell. Perhaps he even tags along on a few missions
This is the best idea so far, imo.

I defenitely don't like the idea of multiple playable characters, that would just mess up the narrative.

Orest Reinn

05-11-2009, 12:23 PM

What are you talking about? Rocky 4 was fantastic!
First Rocky was fantastic ;] Poor boxer, trying to make his living in a gritty big city realm was great. Wealthy and famous Rocky owning a huge house is a negation of it.

arkhanari

05-11-2009, 12:31 PM

Yes. Keep Garret and hire Stephen Russel.

Prospekt1125

05-11-2009, 12:36 PM

Someone in their early twenties is still just a kid, certainly not someone you'd consider a seasoned cynic.

I agree completely. Let's face it folks, Garret makes the Thief series as great as it is. I won't say the game would be terrible without him, but it would definitely not be the same experience.

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 12:53 PM

I dunno. I quite like the idea of starting out as some optimistic little wannabe, only to have the reality drilled into their skull through experiencing Garrett's harsh cynical realism, and the darkness of the City as you follow his trail.

ToMegaTherion

05-11-2009, 12:56 PM

A prequel might be a reasonable idea (this could also help us avoid save-the-world storylines). Otherwise, a return of Garrett would seem a bit out of place. Any replacement character should still be non-heroic while remaining sympathetic.

Attachment to our favourite hero shouldn't let us be forced down the path to poor storylines. Unless Garrett can be returned without creating cliched stories (especially of the save-the-world variety) it might be time for him to take a supporting role, or none at all.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk

05-11-2009, 01:02 PM

Garrett (voiced by no one else then Stephen Russell) should of course play a prominent part of the next instalment. However its important to remember that his story has narratively reached a certain point (being the true keeper and apparently taken on the role of a mentor) from where you hardly can go back to the old routine. The story must acknowledge that he is no longer the man he once was when he left the keepers. Indeed, Garret started out as the non-willing hero that always just wanted to be left alone but was forced to step up because of what not only was forced upon him personally, he was the only one with the skills to prevent cataclysmic and disastrous events. Its noticeable how this has changed Garrett over the instalments, like how he actually is able to connect with people and show concern despite being the eternal cynic. In other words, Garrett is no longer primarily a thief (unless he is trying to reject his probably inescapable "fate").

I think it would be a fitting scenario that Garrett must use his skills one last time (which of course involve stealing/removing stuff from certain locations) to play the role of the true keeper (protecting "the balance" of the world) and I think that his apprentice (the girl mat mirrored himself as a young boy from the last scene in deadly shadows) should have a important role to play (but I think its important that she is not a Garrett-clone when it comes to game play).

rhialto

05-11-2009, 01:13 PM

Garret is a great character. And if he isn't in the game in some capacity, I will far less interested in the game.

However, he does not belong to those of you demanding his return in big angry capitols. He was taken through a very specific journey over the course of the trilogy, and came out a different person on the other end.

If Eidos decides to go with the mentor/student concept, they will actually be respecting the franchise, storyline and themes of the previous games more than angry internet fanpeople over-invested in the character.

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 01:19 PM

Agreed there rhialto. Garrett, as a character changed more and more as the series went on. He's by no means now some kind of benevolent leader or anything like that. Infact, he probably resents the burden placed on him at TDS's close - and I think the best way to explore that is to do so from the outside where we're told right on the outside "this sucks".

I don't really want to boot up Thi4f with the line "It sucks being the sole keeper of the glyphs, so I'm gonna get me Lord Bingly Chickenworths Golden Phat Lute to pay the rent". It would be cheap. It would be totally and utterly selling out on the Thief name. Something a little more complex, please. Garrett's not only a myth in game, he's one to the player as well. I think it would be genuinely great to see them approach it from that angle.

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 01:21 PM

Phaid

05-11-2009, 01:32 PM

Garrett has always been very indifferent about all that's happening in the world. He only acts when it is in his own interests, and him becoming the "one true keeper" only strenghtens his way of thinking. Now that there are no dark prophecies to be afraid of, he couldn't care less about the world if he tried. He has finally reached the point that he has always strived for: To be left alone by the keepers. The world doesn't need anyone to keep the balance anymore. The world is in perfect balance since Garrett got rid of the useless "balancers". I think the ending of T3 didn't affect Garrett in any way that would make him less "thiefy". In fact it made his selfish motives far more acceptable when he no longer bears any relevance anymore.

So all this talk about Garrett taking the role of the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" is just plain nonsense. I think the main lesson of T3 was that the world is changing to a more organised place, where no-one has to be there to keep it from falling apart on itself. The world was just too afraid of itself to see that, and Garrett was the only one that could finally point it out.;)

Exactly.
In fact, the last thing we need is another boring, tired, cliche "the master and an overzealous apprentice that refuses to obey him" story. This is not Star Wars.

Garrett's there, the world moves on, the man's got to eat. Limitless possibilities from there.

rhialto

05-11-2009, 01:33 PM

StalinsGhost

05-11-2009, 01:44 PM

Exactly.
In fact, the last thing we need is another boring, tired, cliche "the master and an overzealous apprentice that refuses to obey him" story. This is not Star Wars.

Garrett's there, the world moves on, the man's got to eat. Limitless possibilities from there.

Disagreed. Not on the master/apprentice thing. I advocate having you play someone that wants to emulate/find Garrett, only to have the man hammer the brutal truth of who he is as opposed to the legend that has surrounded his persona.

But I disagree on the "mans gotta eat" bit. While true, the "steal stuff for the first 3 missions before getting dragged into the almighty conspiracy to destroy the city" was getting tenuous in T3.

Garrett has always been very indifferent about all that's happening in the world. He only acts when it is in his own interests, and him becoming the "one true keeper" only strenghtens his way of thinking. Now that there are no dark prophecies to be afraid of, he couldn't care less about the world if he tried. He has finally reached the point that he has always strived for: To be left alone by the keepers. The world doesn't need anyone to keep the balance anymore. The world is in perfect balance since Garrett got rid of the useless "balancers". I think the ending of T3 didn't affect Garrett in any way that would make him less "thiefy". In fact it made his selfish motives far more acceptable when he no longer bears any relevance anymore.

So all this talk about Garrett taking the role of the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" is just plain nonsense. I think the main lesson of T3 was that the world is changing to a more organised place, where no-one has to be there to keep it from falling apart on itself. The world was just too afraid of itself to see that, and Garrett was the only one that could finally point it out.

So yeah, disagreed here too. T3 was pretty unspecific as to what had happened. But Garrett had clearly taken on the role prophecised. My guess is the powers that be will be on the hunt for Garrett*. It would be much more interesting to follow his attempts to keep going from an unclear perspective.

*
T1 - An Excess of Chaos/Nature
T2 - An Excess of Order/Technology
T3 - An Excess of Balance
T4 - An Excess of the one which unites all three - Garrett.

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 01:49 PM

Yeah... I really don't know about that. You're saying that Garrett isn't the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" but he spends three games doing exactly that. I don't think it's reasonable to say the world's any safer after Thief 3 either. If anything, all three games show that a madman or supernatural force could lay waste to the city any day of the week.

I was referring to someone else that had a different conception about Garrett's position after the ending of T3. My point was that he didn't get any super powers and no-one else got any either. The City matured a little and it doesn't need any sinister forces to protect itself against other sinister forces. Garrett is back at the start, picking pockets in the streets to keep his ribs from meeting his spine. :)

rhialto

05-11-2009, 01:53 PM

Well... he has the Keeper semi-invisibility power. And a mysterious glyph on his hand. And he calls himself a Keeper now.

That seems like a pretty big deal.

rhialto

05-11-2009, 01:58 PM

double post

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 01:58 PM

Well... he has the Keeper semi-invisibility power. And a mysterious glyph on his hand. And he calls himself a Keeper now.

That seems like a pretty big deal.

I always thought that power was an illusion, because I have that power too. :D
And he always had that power, to not be seen when he doesn't wish to be seen?

rhialto

05-11-2009, 02:03 PM

Let me put this another way. Basically you're saying that there are no more supernatural threats to the City, and I can kinda see where that's coming from because of the whole trilogy thing, but if there's going to be a fourth game that's pretty obviously not going to be true.

Second of all you're saying that Garret doesn't fulfill the prophecy and become the Keeper at the end of the third game. However, this is both exactly what happens and exactly what he calls himself.

I mean I can see him still stealing to eat and keep his skills up, but your conclusion as to what happens to Garret the end of the third game is essentially the opposite what actually happens.

okih

05-11-2009, 02:06 PM

i think it would be awesome playing as a 60 year old keeper. oh, an add a stamina bar as well for when he gets tired! also, we could have random arthritis spasms in the hands that would cause garrett to fail mantles when jumping to a balcony or drop his blackjack just as he swings it! anti-sleep potions seem like a viable option as well.
ah for the girl we could tackle a whole new set of problems (cause we know all about them when we're married like i am)! "we need to go on this mission, tonight!" "Oh, GOD. NOT tonight! Just get me some damned chocolates and tylenol..."

i can really see the possibilities of realism coming into the light (pardon the pun ah ha ha) for this next greatest installment of THIEF FOUR! Yea! Definitely market this game towards children in the range of 10 to 12. Also, PU-LEASE make this a CONSOLE ONLY game (we don't need those nasty bugs originating from the PC version like in Thief 3!).

totally excited about this one boys! i can not wait. garrett is my favorite video game character. i would post a link to my fanfics but i don't think that would be proper for my first post ^_^.

Good Gaming! Because the game is not OVER!

NewUser2

05-11-2009, 02:07 PM

I think the game should be like 1,2 and 3 with garret only. (And first person vision)
The little girl form T3 should be in the story but you should not be able to play her i think.

I hope they make the game very mutch like 1,2,3 cus they all vere great games that i really love and still play sometimes.

-Sorry for my bad spelling-

MistaDamajah

05-11-2009, 02:13 PM

Its an interesting conundrum to say the least about the possible protagonist. I would have to say that for me "Thief" is Garret. However, I will add that given the ending of T3DS it would make sense for a new protagonist to take light(but in the shadows of course). If there was a way to create a narrative that ties with the previous 3 games (Hammerites, Mechanists etc.) and keep Garret in the forefront then that is absolutely the option I would go with. If the powers that be feel otherwise, I am still going to get it, because it will be a fantastic stealth game.

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 02:13 PM

Garrett21

05-11-2009, 02:15 PM

Garrett is who i think about when thief is mentioned the voice the actions there is no Thief w/o Garrett,however i just recently got my wife playing Thief she has played and beat T2X and TDS she enjoyed T2X more i think you would benefit greatly with maybe an option of Garrett or a female character as playable maybe after you have beaten main game with Garrett by doing this i think you would get more female gamers into this genre..

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 02:18 PM

rhialto

05-11-2009, 02:18 PM

It's just my opinion, but I think that excluding the prophecies written in the books, the so called "powers" of the keepers were more "metaphorical" than actual magic powers. They were too confident about their impact on the world and the developers of T3 misunderstood their real stature. So I can clearly understand why some of you who like to keep the ending of T3 as relevant as the happenings of the former games. That's why, in my opinion, Garrett hasn't really changed, and frankly, it would strongly go against his nature. He doesn't want to be involved in big things.

I think enough people carried over from Looking Glass that they still get to define the game world that they created. They can't really "misunderstand" it. Also, the the Thief series has never been huge when it comes to subtle applications of the supernatural.

Gan Xodos

05-11-2009, 02:20 PM

The thief in Thief IS GARRET.
The girl was a ghost she's dead and her soul is at rest too so I'm sure she won't have part in Thief 4

cimerians

05-11-2009, 02:21 PM

I also vote for Garrett to be in this game and also the little girl in TDS. I loved the Xbox game and thought she and certain other parts of the game were fantastic.

I really hope this game is similar to the older ones because it worked well. Dont change it too much, just improve on the older games.

rhialto

05-11-2009, 02:26 PM

The thief in Thief IS GARRET.
The girl was a ghost she's dead and her soul is at rest too so I'm sure she won't have part in Thief 4

I think maybe you need to go watch the end of the game again.

van_HellSing

05-11-2009, 02:28 PM

I think maybe you need to go watch the end of the game again.

He generally needs to play any of the games. He seems to think the protagonist is called Garret.

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 02:30 PM

I think enough people carried over from Looking Glass that they still get to define the game world that they created. They can't really "misunderstand" it. Also, the the Thief series has never been huge when it comes to subtle applications of the supernatural.

That doesn't change the fact that Garrett becoming an "über keeper" would clearly go against his true nature, which we all have gotten a very clear picture of during the past games. Making him care about things that are none of his personal business is, in my opinion, changing him too much. Might as well change the voice actor as well then. Wouldn't make it any worse in that situation. And don't tell me that he has no choice about his current status. He's Garrett! He can escape fate too.

"You cannot run from life, like you ran from us, Garrett. Life has a way of finfing you, no matter how artistic a sneak you are." -Yeah, but I can choose the way I live it, no matter how much your prophecies want to turn me into a douche. :D

van_HellSing

05-11-2009, 02:33 PM

Thing is, he doesn't really need to care all that much. It's enough he stops running from it - he'll be doing what he usually does, stealing stuff and saving the world in the process.

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 02:38 PM

Thing is, he doesn't really need to care all that much. It's enough he stops running from it - he'll be doing what he usually does, stealing stuff and saving the world in the process.

"I accidentally the world... again. As I knew I would. As it had to be" :nut:

rhialto

05-11-2009, 02:40 PM

That doesn't change the fact that Garrett becoming an "über keeper" would clearly go against his true nature, which we all have gotten a very clear picture of during the past games. Making him care about things that are none of his personal business is, in my opinion, changing him too much. Might as well change the voice actor as well then. Wouldn't make it any worse in that situation. And don't tell me that he has no choice about his current status. He's Garrett! He can escape fate too.

"You cannot run from life, like you ran from us, Garrett. Life has a way of finfing you, no matter how artistic a sneak you are." -Yeah, but I can choose the way I live it, no matter how much your prophecies want to turn me into a douche. :D

He spent the last three games saving the world. Whether from self-interest or not. He could continue to keep an eye on things from self-interest.

If you want Garrett to remain a loner with no responsibilities who doesn't involve himself in supernatural matters, I guess you can play the first few missions of Thief 1 over and over if you like. I mean, clearly those are the only real parts of the series, and the people who actually wrote and made the games don't know as well as you.

Dia1

05-11-2009, 02:41 PM

I just can't imagine a Thief game without Garrett being the main character. Sure, at the end of TDS the little girl makes the whole Garrett saga come full circle, but I really wouldn't enjoy playing a little girl thief at all. The thought of choosing which character you'll play kind of worries me too; it would be too Morrowind/Oblivion-like (not that there was anything wrong with either game, mind you).

Imo, it just wouldn't be Thief without Garrett. And Stephen Russell, of course. ;)

van_HellSing

05-11-2009, 02:41 PM

Platinumoxicity - You're going down the "keeper balance fanatic" road again. I'm thinking more like "I have a simple job planned for this evening. Nah, who am I kidding, I'll probably end up saving the world again. Oh well, there's loot!"

Mshade

05-11-2009, 02:43 PM

Garrett obviously.

About the girl, she's an orphan and used to take care of herself. Garrett is not a babysitter and his life and story shouldn't end because she wants to train her.

column5

05-11-2009, 02:45 PM

Thief and Garrett are inseparable in my view. If they choose to introduce a new character, I will be disappointed, but I will keep an open mind and at least try to come to terms with it.

I just hope they stick with G. Really.

Gan Xodos

05-11-2009, 02:48 PM

I think maybe you need to go watch the end of the game again.

oh THAT girl, riiight... I thought you meant the ghost of Lauryl :o

van_HellSing

05-11-2009, 02:49 PM

Having Lauryl as the main character would bring a whole new meaning to "ghosting" though :P

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 02:50 PM

Yeah, I should probably go to sleep now. I just wanted to point out (In a 2 page long debate where I pretend to know everything ) that making Garrett conciously keep an eye on the happenings of the world that have no bearing on him whatsoever would change him too much.

There's always two sides of the debate. The ones who like Garrett more as a thief and the ones who like him more as a savior.
Yeah, I should probably go to sleep now.

Gan Xodos

05-11-2009, 03:05 PM

me too XD

Watcheratthegatesofdusk

05-11-2009, 03:11 PM

Garrett has always been very indifferent about all that's happening in the world. He only acts when it is in his own interests, and him becoming the "one true keeper" only strenghtens his way of thinking. Now that there are no dark prophecies to be afraid of, he couldn't care less about the world if he tried. He has finally reached the point that he has always strived for: To be left alone by the keepers. The world doesn't need anyone to keep the balance anymore. The world is in perfect balance since Garrett got rid of the useless "balancers". I think the ending of T3 didn't affect Garrett in any way that would make him less "thiefy". In fact it made his selfish motives far more acceptable when he no longer bears any relevance anymore.

So all this talk about Garrett taking the role of the "ultimate keeper of balance in the world" is just plain nonsense. I think the main lesson of T3 was that the world is changing to a more organised place, where no-one has to be there to keep it from falling apart on itself. The world was just too afraid of itself to see that, and Garrett was the only one that could finally point it out.;)

1)If you pay attention you will notice that Garrett does not only do completely self-serving stuff, he is just above all things else a man who does not like to be bossed around and has developed and attitude to help him with that. He does not have a heart of gold, true, but its not of stone either.

2)You mean that the true keeper is just an empty title or a false prophecy? Remember that the keepers were only a temporary substitute for the true keeper. It must have some meaning. (no I am not talking about him being some harmonic jedi grandmaster or anything like that)

Crypto

05-11-2009, 03:19 PM

Garrett and no other. If James Bond is anyone to go by, he's just hitting his prime years (assuming Garrett's approaching or already in his forties).

One parenthetical remark. Two sentences. 1:2 parenthesis:sentence ratio is not good.

Palmberg

05-11-2009, 04:40 PM

Cant believe this discussion is still going strong...
It would be a huge mistake to replace Garrett, and there is no need for a 2nd character neither.

Espion

05-11-2009, 05:37 PM

Dia1

05-11-2009, 06:38 PM

I can't really remember the girl from Thief DS but as I recall Garrett became a Keeper at the end of it? Rather than him being a mentor to anyone, it strikes me as much more in character for Garrett to be taking advantage of his new position to his own gain... Until of course he winds up getting involved in something bigger and deadlier. Mentoring? Doesn't sound like Garrett at all.

I agree Espion; I doubt that Garrett would willingly take on the responsibility of another soul, especially that of a child. As you said, unless he uses the mentoring to take advantage of a situation or inadvertently gets involved in something bigger that just happens to include his mentoring someone. Otherwise, Garrett's always been pretty much a lone wolf who doesn't like anyone exercising their authority over him.

CurtX

05-11-2009, 06:47 PM

I'm reminded of Metal Gear Solid 2, and how many MGS fans were not pleased to have to play as Raiden for the majority of the game.

Botlas

05-11-2009, 10:16 PM

I'd prefer Garrett, but then again, if the story ends up sucking I'd prefer it weren't Garrett. There's a lot of backtracking and explanation involved if they're going to use Garrett, after the events of Deadly Shadows. It doesn't really make sense for him to go about his normal business at that point (and he does have special powers at that stage too, which might make things a little too easy).

I'm really more concerned about the story overall. If they can pull off a good story with a new character, that still fits in with the themes and style of the previous games (more specifically, the first two) then I'd be happy. The problem with a new character is that Garrett is such an iconic character. He'd overshadow any new character you introduced.

Necros

05-11-2009, 10:21 PM

The fact they're even ASKING this kind of question leads me to believe the game will suck.:hmm:
I think they already know if he'll be back or not (and I bet we'll play as Garrett), they just want to know the fans' opinions.
My guess is the powers that be will be on the hunt for Garrett*. It would be much more interesting to follow his attempts to keep going from an unclear perspective.
That's a good idea, more focus on the City Watch and the nobles.

gagatek

05-11-2009, 11:14 PM

Having a girl as new "the Great Master Thief" could be really interesting. :D
Especially with Garret as her supervisor...
Personally I would love such option - to have Garret's student, a mysterious girl as a character, but still to have (at least) some levels with Garret.
That would open a whole lots of possibilities for plot - and would let to have at least a part of a game with Garret as main character.

I'd hate a total Garret's replacement though... he's the heart of the series. I just could sacrifice the "I work alone" part for the sake a plot. :)

THIEF

05-11-2009, 11:42 PM

Garrett is IRREPLACEABLE!!

No companions, just Master Garrett!!

Platinumoxicity

05-11-2009, 11:44 PM

I'm starting to get this feeling that Ion Storm deliberately overshot the ending of T3 to make it impossible to get back to the old Thief without changing the main character. That was just evil. They tried to end the series there and pretty much succeeded.

Thievingtaffer

05-11-2009, 11:48 PM

The argument stating that the Main Character cannot be our beloved Garrett anymore is totally ill-founded in my opinion. You claim that because Garrett has gone through a transformation starting with The Dark Project, and ending with the end of Deadly Shadows, and is now a new person, and we should move on assumses something ridiculous: Each character can only be used once? Transformed once?

Take for example Gordan Freeman. Went to work one day, saved the world, came out a moved and changed character at the end of the game, with an ending similar to Deadly Shadows. Does that mean that Valve can't bring him back for a new game? Of course not. Or take Sam Fisher from Soldier of Fortune. Or Agent 47 from Hitman. Or Solid Snake (if you want to go there). These characters are their franchises and they will never wear out.

One of the things I love from the Thief series is Garrett's bitter personality and overall reluctance to save the world. If you lose that, you lose a large attractive character-developed conflict. The Dark Project and Metal Age play out nicely as a movie, with strong character development, and the in depth writing is what makes it so great. Take away such a great character as Garrett, and you toss that character out the window, and probably fail trying to make a new one.

Jables_Kage

05-11-2009, 11:50 PM

Yes of course. Seriously guys, you will BADLY alienate people by changing from Garrett and very much get off on the wrong foot. Please. Don't do it...

Totally agree with mister_riz do not go down this path eidos or you will loose alot of fans!

GmanPro

05-11-2009, 11:51 PM

If you want want a different protagonist, play a different game I say

Smooogy

05-11-2009, 11:53 PM

Personally I didn't think Thief Deadly Shadows was a superb enough game to remove Garrett from his title of main protagonist. If you do that, you need to have a great sendoff, which TDS, being an xbox port, kind of wasn't on that level.

I still liked TDS! Anything thief is great, but Garret has to return so new players can come to learn his coolness. He's been severely overlooked because of the enormous gaps timewise between games, and it would be a shame to not give him this chance to show up every other game's so called heroes.

The kid at the end of TDS? Well, I'm thinking apprentice, but don't make us play him or her. Nah, let them watch and learn from Garrett

muzboz

05-11-2009, 11:54 PM

I am thrilled that Thief 4 has been announced! Nothing could make me happier! :)

I think it could work really well to make it a story of Garrett's genesis.

His history has been hinted at in the prologue of the first game, talking about how he was taken up by The Keepers when he was caught pick pocketing one, and they trained him, and how he didn't really fit in there, and ultimately left to do his own thing.

Stephen Russel is iconic to the series, and when I think of all the things I love about the series, his voice is a large part of it. His laconic cheeky drawl is very endearing.

I think it would be great to set the game as Garrett is a young man, in mischief, around a large medieval city, much like the first game, and before he knows of any of the deeper mysteries of the various orders and groups of the population.

The first or second mission could be to perform job X, which lands him in trouble when he is caught trying to pick pocket the keeper mentioned in the opening flash-back cutscene of Thief 1.

From there, the story could explore the nature of the keepers, and a new storyline about what they were embroiled with at the time. You could spend half of your time performing special Keeper missions (which take advantage of your unique skills), while you are perhaps still moonlighting as an everyday Thief "outside Keeper work hours".

Perhaps your new found power as a Keeper gives you grand images of yourself, and you begin to perform especially difficult and risky thieving tasks to challenge yourself.

And go on to explore why Garrett begins to conflict with the Keepers, and ultimately leaves their order.

That would be cool!

- Murray :eek:

muzboz

05-11-2009, 11:59 PM

I would also urge you to use Eric Brosius as the audio designer, one of the key personal in making the Thief series what it is, along with other key voice actors for the guards, who are iconic for the brand as well.

- Murray

Jables_Kage

05-12-2009, 12:20 AM

The kid at the end of TDS? Well, I'm thinking apprentice, but don't make us play him or her. Nah, let them watch and learn from Garrett

maybe you send her on her first mission and she gets caught and you have to go save her and loot a huge castle at the same time???

Phaid

05-12-2009, 12:55 AM

Take for example Gordon Freeman. Went to work one day, saved the world, came out a moved and changed character at the end of the game, with an ending similar to Deadly Shadows. Does that mean that Valve can't bring him back for a new game? Of course not. Or take Sam Fisher from Soldier of Fortune. Or Agent 47 from Hitman. Or Solid Snake (if you want to go there). These characters are their franchises and they will never wear out.

Word. Garrett is an iconic character.
Indiana Jones= Indy
MGS= Snake
Wolfenstein= BJ Blaskowicz
Splinter Cell= Sam Fisher
THIEF= GARRETT

Seriously, do they really want to make the same mistake Kojima did in MGS 2?

Pyryp

05-12-2009, 01:16 AM

Garret ftw!

Apprentice101

05-12-2009, 03:17 AM

ok, first of all i am die hard thief series fan, and i have to say i was such even in 1998 when first Thief came out. I played all 3 games from the series, and i have to say i played the first 2, TDP and TMA, all by myself, havent used any strategies or stuff from forums, and i grew into this game all by myself. Garret IS of course 50% of the game. It always have been and always will be. However, i must also add that the purist (other people such as me, cause i consider myself purist) approach thats its the ONLY way to go kinda makes me embarassed.

Guys, thief IV is NEW game. Its not 1.5, nor 2.5 nor 3.5. Yes it is called Thief for a reason - to bring the old style/gameplay/feel/atmosphere/world into play which DEFINES THief series BUT with new features, NEW missions and NEW story. Garret IS not going away, he is a main protagonist in the trilogy, however, bringing something fresh into the SEQUEL, imo wont in any way break the series. Therefore, i dont see anything wrong if Garret is STILL in the game, as playable character with SAME voice actor, however, adding new apprentice of his would really add to the feel of the Thief series. Not necessarily, but it could be as somebody already pointed out - Garret being as The PRO/Master thief in doing the strategy and vital missions, thinking and being shown in the debriefings, TOGETHER with added girl apprentice who would do some Side missions, non-vital missions. And sometimes their Dialogue would appear.

ITs not like GARRET was ALL alone in the game, he had both allies, enemies and people who he visited for advice, for information and stuff. Why cant his apprentice be his partner now, the same way the keepers were, etc.etc. etc. Just the idea of implementing his apprentice in the side stories should be implement that way it doesnt in any way break the Feel/World of Thief series.

I agree Espion; I doubt that Garrett would willingly take on the responsibility of another soul, especially that of a child. As you said, unless he uses the mentoring to take advantage of a situation or inadvertently gets involved in something bigger that just happens to include his mentoring someone. Otherwise, Garrett's always been pretty much a lone wolf who doesn't like anyone exercising their authority over him. .

Thats why we love Garret. He is not static character. he is dynamic character. And i could add that the way Garret was made apprentice, he has some emotions toward making apprentice. he is not immortal therefore, leaving a legacy with same standards behind him is a win and not a loss.

Velecost

05-12-2009, 03:46 AM

Word. Garrett is an iconic character.
Indiana Jones= Indy
MGS= Snake
Wolfenstein= BJ Blaskowicz
Splinter Cell= Sam Fisher
THIEF= GARRETT

Seriously, do they really want to make the same mistake Kojima did in MGS 2?

I just hope they listen! Good points man. I still remember how upset I was when playing MGS 2 and it even made 4 sad how they want to get rid of snake.

goldsla

05-12-2009, 06:21 AM

Should Garrett remain the main protagonist in T4?
Or if he is not the main character, what should his role be? :scratch:

What about the little girl that you see in the ending of T3: DS?
Perhaps she has grown up and features in T4?

Discuss... :)Consider having both Garrett and the little girl as protagonists of their own missions which intertwine independent seeming storylines. Maybe. But definately Garrett. He is Thief however it is spelled.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk

05-12-2009, 06:57 AM

Sounds good to me. In such case it would of course be favourable if the two characters were quite different to play. The girl (probably a young woman) could for example be able to move/run a lot faster and more nimble/agile/acrobatic, but lack some of Garretts skills when it comes to stealth and lock picking.

Frappo

05-12-2009, 07:08 AM

sure He must be the main character.
Garret's charisma is insuperable

The Deuce

05-12-2009, 07:47 AM

I think it's worth pointing out, folks, that if Garrett is in the game, and if the game is a continuation of Thief 3's story, then he's not going to be the same as he has been in previous games.

In past games, he was a selfish bastard (that's why we love him!). Although he primarily robbed corrupt rich guys, he wasn't after social justice or anything, and was quite happy to be hired by corrupt rich guys if he was paid enough. He stole cause he wanted other people's stuff.

At the end of Thief 3, he's changed. He's grown up and accepted responsibility. He's not the self-serving jerk anymore. He's now the One True Keeper, the benevolent protector of the city. Even if an excuse can be thought up for him to steal again, his motives for doing so will be different from before.

Has anybody here considered the possibility of a remake of the first game? I don't mean that loopy "modern-day re-imagining" idea that Ion Storm had before they folded. I mean an actual remake of the 1st game, with the same basic storyline and setting, but with today's vastly improved technology. It would have all-new levels, and plenty of new content and variation to make it fresh, while still having the same basic story arc. With Eidos' advertising budget, the game could get the publicity and exposure that the original Thief was sadly deprived of, and a lot of new players could get into the Thief experience from the beginning.

Pyronox

05-12-2009, 08:46 AM

TH4 should start with the girl dieing >=)

BoldEnglishman

05-12-2009, 11:48 AM

I have to agree with the people that say Garrett should NOT be the protagonist. As far as I can see, Garrett has gone full circle (defeating the Trickster and the Pagans, defeating Karras and the Mechanists, and defeating the Hag and inadvertently making the Keepers redundant), and I cannot see how Garrett can progress any further as a playable character.

Originally Garrett was a Thief, and at the time that was brilliant (learning all about the City, the different factions, learning about all these new elements as Garrett was learning about them himself) - he was mortal basically. However now Garrett is practically as close to omniscient as a mortal can be in The City - he is supposed to be the last Keeper as is suggested by the ending of Thief: Deadly Shadows, and I cannot foresee how Garrett can continue with this new role and power. He is no longer simply a thief.

I think what Valve did with the original Half-Life was a good idea - Gordon Freeman is the player character of the core game itself, while the expansions provided different playable characters that were all a part of this greater story. I am not saying that Garrett should be abandoned completely - Garrett if anything should probably play quite a major role in the story - however I think it is time that the player takes control of someone else. I don't know who yet exactly, maybe the girl at the end of Deadly Shadows, maybe not... but I can only foresee fans criticizing the game for 'ruining' Garrett if he is the next playable character. The end of Thief Deadly Shadows was a very good ending, and showed how the cycle of history had come full circle... everything about Garrett seems to fit and make sense, so much so that this delicate state of 'balance' and 'wholeness' would be lost if he was to branch out and start going down yet another path.

Some people have mentioned that Garrett is Thief... and I have to say that I disagree. One of the most interesting elements of the Thief games is the rich world and environments that they take place in. There are so many elements to The City and the various factions that play out and exist in The City, that Garrett does not need to be there all the time. Garrett is no doubt a very important element of Thief, but he is only one aspect of the whole storyline, and I personally could very well enjoy playing a Thief game without Garrett -- oh wait, I already have! Thief 2X: Shadows of the Metal Age.

rezorrand

05-12-2009, 11:55 AM

"Thief" if you look at the name, it tells a lot about the game. Garrett established the whole concept to the series. He's the Thief that made the series live and loved by the fans. It would be little bit like if Lara Croft was replaced by a guy in Tomb Raider series.

Instead of thinking the title as the profession of the protagonist, it should be considered as the person who professes the namesake. It's the story about a Garrett, if the girl has a story, it would have to be a spin-off of some sorts. "Burglar" or something.

Hence, it has to be Garrett, none else. Besides, why is everyone obsessed with the idea that it has to be a sequel to the Thief trilogy. It could be about his other adventures. I'm quite certain he has had a lot more adventures that players could experience.

StalinsGhost

05-12-2009, 12:00 PM

Personally I hate the idea that Garrett is some sort of poster boy. He's a more advanced character than all the other "iconic" protagonists out there, and one who could actually be developed futher, more logically and with more complexity if we were to see Garrett's place in the City from another pair of eyes.

I deplore the idea of a series with the narrative excellence of Thief being turned into some cash-cow simply just selling on iconisms and poster-boyism - as I fear is happening to Bioshock for example.

Besides. Garrett would despise all this insipid hero worship!

kin

05-12-2009, 12:23 PM

TH4 should start with the girl dieing >=)

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

kerrang

05-12-2009, 01:01 PM

A female thief as a foster child of Garrett who'd be the mentor in a fourth game might be a nice refreshing twist on the franchise, if they can get her just as cynical and sinister as Garrett used to be. I'd probably enjoy it more than if they tried to recreate the atmosphere of the first two games and failed (which I pretty much expect them to)."

So, yeah I vote for the girl to be the new protagonist, but she'd have to be somewhat seasoned, like in her early twenties. Nothing worse to a game than an adolescent main character who grows up over the course of the game.

And, repeating myself to stress the importance of this, she'd have to be as cynical as Garrett was for this to be any fun.

agreed, vote for cynical girl, time to refresh franchise! :p
or please let us choose character sex like Mr & Miss Shepherd from Mass Effect :p

The_Hammerite

05-12-2009, 01:08 PM

Wow, pro Garrett in here. Am i going to be stoned to death voting for that little girl in T3 to take main role? :poke:

They might as well make it so that you can choose which character to play as in the beginning. Although I think, either way, there should only be cursory interaction with the other possible protagonist; in that they are both aware of whatever goings-on surmise the plot. I don't think that interactions in gameplay would go over well - either Garret or the girl would go solo, and with games like Army of Two having gone down the 'heavy on the co-op' road.

Either way, just let the player choose who to play as, don't kill off the character they didn't play as, etc. It'll satisfy both camps. Oh, and about Stephen Russell - if he isn't available for Garrett, just have the girl be the protagonist - anyone other than Russell doing Garrett's voice would stand as an unrivaled sacrilege.

Black Messiah

05-12-2009, 01:12 PM

Garrett !

StalinsGhost

05-12-2009, 01:17 PM

Oh, and about Stephen Russell - if he isn't available for Garrett, just have the girl be the protagonist - anyone other than Russell doing Garrett's voice would stand as an unrivaled sacrilege.

Utterly true. I think even the Garrett-as-protagonist fans would agree he shouldn't be in if Russel isn't.

Ice1019

05-12-2009, 01:30 PM

Originally, I thought that Garrett should be the protagonist, with no exceptions. But truth be told, I believe the idea that he really has come full circle. He had his journey over the three games, and his story ends just as it begins, with a picked pocket. I think forcing Garrett into a new story just to have Garrett might not work out as well as we all want it to.

With that said though, Garrett needs to be in the story. Using the girl as a plot device to bring in people who never played the game might be the way to go, as we have a new person to journey with the player, exploring this fantastic City. Perhaps Garrett is older, wiser, but still something of a curmudgeon, instructing the girl in the ways of property reallocation engineering. We can see Garrett break new ground as the caretaker of this young girl, and even of the whole City as the One True Keeper, but maybe this girl is his eyes and ears throughout the City, taking the Lords and Bluecoats down a few pegs, and keeping the Balance between the Hammers and the Pagans.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk

05-12-2009, 01:37 PM

>Ice1019
Sounds like the foundation of a possible scenario to me. The only thing missing is a threat/problem that they need to deal with (but you already knew that).

Botlas

05-12-2009, 05:01 PM

If you think about it, the exposure we get to Garrett comes in three places: cutscenes, mission briefings, and muttering during missions. Except for that third one, Garrett can play a prominent role in a new game even if he isn't the protagonist. It wouldn't quite be the same, and you'd still need a reason to care about the protagonist-who-isn't-Garrett, but if he isn't the main character we may still see a lot of him.

I'd still prefer Garrett, but I'm just throwing out the thought.

Mr McGee

05-12-2009, 08:09 PM

kin

05-12-2009, 08:40 PM

It doesn't matter what is best for the story. What matters is what character will bring more money to EM. Garrett can do this beacause as a character has a well developed base already.

GmanPro

05-12-2009, 08:58 PM

Ice1019

05-12-2009, 09:19 PM

That's true. Trying to make a new protagonist would be a major gamble for EM. Everyone's familiar with Garrett already. His voice is instantly recognizable. It would be incredibly stupid to try something new

I don't think so. Sure, a bankable hero is important, but having Garrett be the protagonist just "because" would be a mistake. Story is key to the Thief franchise, when last we saw our misanthropic hero, he's really kind of come full circle. If EM can find a good character arc for him, then sure, bring him back. But I think it's better from a narrative perspective to bring out the girl. Garrett should be in the story by all means, but EM needs to bring something new (and constructive) to the Thief series, and I think the girl would be a good idea.

GmanPro

05-12-2009, 10:04 PM

Well. I care about Garrett. He's cool. I don't care about some dumb girl that was present for ten seconds of cutscene at the end of the weakest game of the series.

It'd be like changing the protagonist of a Tomb Raider game, or a Half-Life game. Just changing something that major for the sake of it? I wouldn't be surprised, the industry as a whole has grown up after all.

Man, that would pretty much be the ultimate example of whats wrong with the gaming industry today. If they were to actually go through with it that is.

Ice1019

05-12-2009, 10:30 PM

Sure, the decision to change the only protagonist the Thief series has ever had is a huge gamble. Garrett is the ultimate anti-hero, and Looking Glass and Stephen Russell crafted him to an almost crystalline perfection. But we've had Garrett take on the Pagans, the Hammers, and the Keepers in successive games, and we are left with him at the end of his cycle. Sure, he's gonna keep on thieving, but how do we bring him back into the machinations of the City in a way that doesn't seem contrived? I didn't like Deadly Shadows for the most part, but I think the ending was a great way to finish his arc.

Bringing in the girl I think is a good way for people who never played the game to get into the story. If all EM does is bring in Garrett same-old, same-old, sure all of us that have been playing Thief since 1998 will be right on board, but what about the people who are new to the games? Having a protagonist who only really resonates with the Thief die-hards is a great way to kill this new lease on life we've been fortunate enough to have. The quickest way to kill this franchise is make a game purely as fan service, alienating the new guys. I want Thief, but I want a Thief that belongs in 2009, not 1998.

Look at Starcraft. Jim Raynor is still the protagonist because his story hasn't finished. Arcturus Mengsk, on the other hand, has had his story told. He went from revolutionary to vicious tyrant, and now we have his son Valerian to bring something new to the Mengsk arc. Arcturus is still there, and bet he'll still be important, but he's not the focus. I'm not saying that's how EM has to do it, but it is an example.

I think Garrett should be in the new game, I think he should be a core character, but I think maybe the best thing to both give something new to the old guard and ease the new people into this fantastic universe would be to see the City through some new eyes. It doesn't have to be the squirt, but I think she's the better choice.

GmanPro

05-12-2009, 10:39 PM

Ice1019

05-12-2009, 11:12 PM

I think that the quickest way to ruin this game actually, is to try to appeal to everyone. Besides, this new generation of gamers doesn't care about immersion. They'd rather sit back on their couches fifteen feet away from the screen and shoot stuff for twenty minutes. I think the best way for this game to be successful is if it stays absolutely true to the series. And if its good like the classic Thief's, Then the fans will pile up. Looking Glass didn't compromise anything when making these games and we all love them for it. There are plenty of ways to fit Garrett into the story and I'm sure EM will think of something good.

Anyway, the new players wont connect with some new character any more than they would with Garrett, having known neither one.

Well, there was a time that we didn't know Garrett, but we all got to know him. I think you're thinking a little too cynically. BioShock was immersive, and people loved it. Metal Gear Solid 4 was ridiculously deep, and they ate that up too. Not all gamers nowadays are fratboys playing Halo 3 at Phi Theta Keg. Sure, dumbing down the game would be terrible, that's why the Xbox version of Thief: DS has been getting slammed in virtually every thread in this forum!

I want to see EM stay true to the series too, I want FP camera, I want the old health mechanic instead of regeneration, I want the rope arrows instead of the gloves. I just want to see some innovation too.

Have faith, my friend, I think Thief's in good hands.

GmanPro

05-12-2009, 11:17 PM

Well, if Thief 4 turns out like BioShock or MGS4, I'm going to scream.

GarretDarkCity

05-12-2009, 11:22 PM

The City is THIEF
THIEF IS GARRETT
GARRETT is STEPHEN RUSSELL
STEPHEN RUSSELL IS GOD

what Eidos montreal really needs is a people from looking glass studios, REALLY GUYS, what are you thinking? haven't you seen that thief is in the hall of fame of the best games of all time? that GARRETT is the best main character in videogame history? have you imagine a Mario Bros game without Mario? a Zelda game without Link? a 007 movie without James Bond? THIS is what THIEF is about, GARRETT is THIEF, kill the little girl/boy, but no Garrett, Make a Thief game based in garrett's past, before he met Constantine. AND SERIOSLY GUYS, PLAY !!!!! THE FIRST TWO GAMES for at least 1000 times before you make this game, forget about the third....

one last request... forget the unreal engine.......dark engine showed the best physics in a game, even when graphic definition wasn't so good, desing an engine alike to the dark engine, DO your homework

Ice1019

05-12-2009, 11:27 PM

I heard there are people from big studios all wanting to come work on DX3 and T4, so we might just get some Looking Glass vets on the project. I doubt it, but I would love to see Eric and Terri Brosius come back.

GmanPro

05-12-2009, 11:30 PM

You gotta think that they are going to use many of the old voice actors. Stephen Russell for one. Those same two guards (classic :D), dunno who voices those guys though. Those guys technically worked at Looking Glass

Ice1019

05-12-2009, 11:42 PM

Sure, anybody else as Garrett would cause unfathomable rage even in my forward-thinking vision of Thief. That one guy with the really rough voice always cracked me up.

Getting back to the original vibe of this thread, Gman, I'm curious as to what you want out of Garrett as the protagonist in Thief 4. You seem really dead set on having him, and I'm just curious as to how you see him in this new game. I'm not trying to challenge you on anything, I just want to try and see things from the other angle, maybe there's something I'm missing.

GmanPro

05-12-2009, 11:51 PM

There's a few ways to go about it really. Maybe make this game a prequel. Or have it take place in between two of the games. Develop the character further. I felt like Garrett had earned such a large amount of fame by TDS that there had to have been more in his past than just those two games. I mean, most of what he did was all in the dark. How would all of the city dwellers know about his epicness unless he had done many a job that we haven't yet had the opportunity to play through.

That, or the story could pick up after TDS. Maybe Garrett attracts a new kind of attention with his new found powers. Maybe he doesn't like this attention, or his new powers. There's lots of room here to keep the Garrett story alive following the events of DS, but I'd prefer think the former.

Ice1019

05-13-2009, 12:01 AM

I hear that, a prequel is an idea some people have been bouncing around, and there is definitely meat on that bone. I'd like to see where that goes, definitely. Garrett's time with the Keepers and why he left them is a huge part of Garrett's character, and we haven't seen that yet. Garrett's new position after TDS is cool too, don't get me wrong, and I think it would be the ultimate conflict for the reserved and cynical Garrett to be the A-number-one Keeper of the Balance, having the well-being of the City on his shoulders and he can never get rid of it.

The idea I have with the kid is sort of along these lines, like maybe Garrett can't handle the pressure and bails, and the new protagonist has to hunt down the ultimate disappearing act. A mission chasing Garrett across the Thieves Highway I think would be pretty neato.

But, I like where you're heads at with the Garrett protagonist idea, and I'm just trying to be flexible.

GmanPro

05-13-2009, 12:03 AM

Actually, I just remembered how much I loved Opposing Force. So if EM was smart they'd make Thief 4 with Garrett as the protagonist etc etc, but then after that, start developing an expansion pack. Where you play through the events of Thief 4 through the eyes of another character. That would pretty much please everybody I think

Ice1019

05-13-2009, 12:14 AM

Sure, I loved the contrast Valve had with Half-Life and it's expansions, a whole load of "oh I remember that" moments. Blue Shift and Opposing Force both were full of those, especially the very beginning with Barney and the tram.

I think when we get a clearer picture of where EM is going with Thief 4, we'll be able to really define what it is we wanna see go in. I think this whole forum is a great idea, I think what we as the fans want is important to them, and they are probably gonna scour this whole place for as much as they can find.

Not saying they can't blow it, but I can dream anyway.

Flashart

05-13-2009, 02:36 AM

In a typical "third way", the girl was introduced in TDS, she could be the main
part of the story narrative, but still play Garret in T4.
Then at the end don't kill him off but "retire" him.
Then T5 could be just with a new character, while T6 could return to Garrett if
it doesn't work.
I've stated elsewhere that what we're actually seeing is the evolution of the city,
not Garrett. I'd still rather play Garrett than any other character, but TX2 was perfectly fine.
I'd like to stress that at the end of TDS Garrett was very much alive, still a thief, still to a degree a fugitive, the only difference is he is now a little more "internally conflicted".
I'd concentrate on the city's evolution, Garrett can merely react to the changes. Handled lightly, Garrett could easily continue for many games.
I'm not adverse to change, but not just for change's sake.As everyone keeps saying, the core aspects of TDP and TMA must be preserved, but surely one of those cores was that we see the world through Garrett's eye(s).
I realise I'm starting to repeat myself but I think including a user friendly editor would be a great help. People could then write their own FM's allowing the stories to continue as they see fit.

simlan

05-13-2009, 03:10 AM

Garrett HAS to remain as main character and story centered around himself other wise the game will feel of a different game and apart form the thief series, if any other characters need to be involved (for story purposes) then let them be chosen to played with at the beginning, default being Garrett.

Or have a series of side missions that can be taken as optional allowing to follow the main story that is garretts involvement of what is chosen to happen

Phaid

05-13-2009, 03:12 AM

Bring back Garrett. :thumb:
No freaking girl that we only saw for a second or two.

sapud83

05-13-2009, 04:40 AM

Bring back Garrett. :thumb:
No freaking girl that we only saw for a second or two.

I agree in 100% only Garrett can be main character and mr Russell's voice is the best for this role. Girl could be good as a lover of Garrett:) That would be interesting!

Durinda D'Bry

05-13-2009, 04:55 AM

only Stephen Russell can be Garrett

Only Stephen Russel could be Benny:) I hope Karras character will not return:)

Teasza

05-13-2009, 06:01 AM

I think it could work really well to make it a story of Garrett's genesis.

This is exactly what I was thinking. The TDS ending made it very difficult to make a chronologically new game (with Garrett as protagonist) without severely messing with what happened at the end of DS. A prequel is the best option for a number of reasons:

1. We know next to nothing about Garrett's early time with the keepers, let alone the time that elapsed between his "leaving them in anger" and the beginning of Dark Project. This is an opportunity to fill in some of the game timeline and lore.

2. We get to focus on pure thievery for a bit. Obviously, at this stage, Garrett is still attaining his Master Thief status - he has to earn it. And with a prequel, the player can earn it for him. Sounds perfect to me.

3. At this point in the story, Garrett has already made his ambiguous connection to the Keepers, so it's not lore-breaking to involve them a little, which the devs would probably be keen to do seeing as they're such major players in the original storylines.

4. It would be interesting to show the increasing tension between Pagan and Hammerite factions, which as we know eventually culminates in Dark Project's ending.

5. A prequel erases all the tiptoeing around Garrett's change in status at the end of DS. I honestly think that if the new game is set after DS, Garrett cannot be the protagonist - and Garrett IS the Thief games.

In my opinion, the only realistic way to make Garrett the protagonist again is to make Thief 4 a prequel. And since 70% of their fanbase won't buy the game sans Garrett... well, you do the maths.

Tiptoe

05-13-2009, 06:29 AM

Speaking as a female gamer, I'd love the option to play a girl character. But if I'm forced to continue in the role of Garret, then I can live with it.

The only problem is, Garret's story seems to be pretty much finished (at least, it seems that way to me) so I really like the idea of playing as Garret's apprentice.

Perhaps, as Garret's apprentice, you could choose to play as either a male or female character. You see, I'm a big fan of choice!

But whatever you decide, Garret must definitely be in the game!

Teasza

05-13-2009, 06:56 AM

Speaking as a female gamer, I'd love the option to play a girl character. But if I'm forced to continue in the role of Garret, then I can live with it.

Speaking as a female gamer, I don't think I can live without Garrett's voice purring in my ear every five minutes. ;)

BoldEnglishman

05-13-2009, 07:24 AM

I pretty much agree with Ice1019 on everything he mentioned. It has since been repeated by a few people now, so to say it bluntly:

- If the new game is set after Deadly Shadows, do not go with Garrett as the player character.

- However, if the game is set before Deadly Shadows (not necessarily before the Dark Project), then go ahead with Garrett.

A year elapsed between the Dark Project and the Metal Age, and though we play through this interlude period for a bit (in Shadows of the Metal Age), there is always the possibility of exploring that further.

However, the idea of going back pre-Lord Bafford's Manor sounds very interesting, and was what I was going to propose today had you guys not beat me to the score! We have no idea how much time elapses between "A Keeper's Training" and "Lord Bafford's Manor", and as has been mentioned, Garrett has already built an infamous reputation for himself as evidenced by several conversations in both "Assassins" and "Thieves' Guild". The introduction in the manual suggests that Garrett and Cutty were working together for a while anyway "You have a reliable fence, named Cutty, who's always on the
lookout for good jobs. So far, he's never let you down".

tjtrewin

05-13-2009, 07:24 AM

why is everyone so negative about the possibility of having a female character?

imagine the things that a woman could achieve,

i've made a list of both advantages & disadvantages

Advantages

flirt her way past guards
easily slip on a dress and gatecrash a party, mingle with the guests and learn info etc
agility & flexibility advantages
(possibly) slimmer being able to hide easier and get through narrow spaces
women are cunning and deceptive (i should know! i do it all the time :D)
a woman could be a distraction for the guards whilst Garrett sneaks in the building
if it's a child, she can crawl through places and hide a LOAD easier
this child is very young, when you see Garrett for the first time he looks a late teen / early twenties. This child has got more time to learn.

Disadvantages

Garrett likes to work alone
The girl (however old) will not have the same experience as Garrett and so may be prone to falling into traps or getting caught etc
Men are naturally stronger built than women.
The fans will cry. I've seen it typed all over this forum already.

I agree that Garrett should not be removed from the game, but the (possible) gradual introduction of a new character should be welcomed, not turned away because she's a girl.

If there even IS a new character.

Teasza

05-13-2009, 07:28 AM

The introduction in the manual suggests that Garrett and Cutty were working together for a while anyway "You have a reliable fence, named Cutty, who's always on the
lookout for good jobs. So far, he's never let you down".

That's something that I noticed, too. It's a clue to Garrett's timeline. We're never told Garrett's age, but forming a reliable relationship with a fence has got to take time. I estimate there must have been roughly ten years, perhaps even more, between Garrett's leaving the Keepers and the beginning of Dark Project. There is SO much scope there for development. I love the idea of helping a younger Garrett earn his title of Master Thief.

Direlord

05-13-2009, 07:46 AM

I agree that Garrett should not be removed from the game, but the (possible) gradual introduction of a new character should be welcomed, not turned away because she's a girl.

If there even IS a new character.

I don't think many if anyone doesn't want the girl as the main character because of the sex of the character. It is more we WANT Garrett with his voice and no one else.

Personally for me I can go either way I want Garrett back as the main character as prequel or a continuation of the story. On the other hand the little girl at the end of DS was the near exact same conversation and situation as Garrett had in the intro for the first game. She would be trained as a Keeper and I have a feeling as a thief as well by Garrett.

This leads to a few possibilities IMO.
1. She is the main character probably in her early 20s by now and Garrett has rubbed off on her in attitude. Any voice actress I think would need to get the audio or play the old games and talk to Russell for how he did the voice. I think the early missions briefings should be given by Garrett with some later given by herself like Garrett used to.

2. Another choice she becomes a keeper and is in training who helps Garrett out but isn't more than a side character and a nod to DS.

3. She becomes a excellent thief learning all the tricks of the trade however she goes off on her own. The main character you play is Garrett and the girl competes against him and is his later enemy as she gets involved in things or with people that were not the best choices. The ending being a thief vs thief thing.

Ice1019

05-13-2009, 09:45 AM

I mentioned the Thief versus Thief thing, but in the other direction. I think it's a pretty cool idea either way, because Garrett's always had a bit of a superiority complex when it comes to other thieves, and putting that to the test in either his shoes or the girl's. Personally I think the girl's got more going for her if they are continuing the story after DS.

I'm not opposed to the idea of a prequel story, but part of what made Garrett and the City so cool were the gaps in the history. We don't really know about the world outside of the City, which made it more imposing. We don't know where exactly Garrett came from, or why exactly he left the Keepers, which made him more mysterious. On the other hand, having an older Garrett essentially playing Dad to this girl would be kind of a lame way for him to end up, unless this whole True Keeper business is going to set up some serious threat to Garrett and the City.

esme

05-13-2009, 09:47 AM

Should Garrett remain the main protagonist in T4?
Or if he is not the main character, what should his role be? :scratch:

What about the little girl that you see in the ending of T3: DS?
Perhaps she has grown up and features in T4?

Discuss... :)how about the story being set some time later, the little girl has grown into an adult and is a keeper with skills equal to Garrett in his heyday, just different skills, Garrett is now the head of the order, somewhat of a prisoner of old age and bored out of his mind with the tedium

she investigates a mystery in the keeper records which leads her off to somewhere in the mountains say, she consults with Garrett who gives her one of his scouting orbs which is useless to her but can send an image back to Garrett once it's activated

Garrett subsequently receives a horrific vision of the girl in danger and decides to take the opportunity for a little adventure by going to help, a bit sexist I know but bear with me

the other keepers naturally don't want him to leave the order as the knowledge he now possesses would be dangerous in the wrong hands

so he has to go it alone and he first has to escape his fellow keepers, naturally he doesn't want to hurt them too much

he is a lot older, less fit and perhaps a bit rusty so he has to undergo some kind of rejuvenation and retraining first, to get him him back into his prime, say by finding the eye has the power to rejuvenate leading to him limping stealthily across the city, going back to the haunted cathedral and grabbing the eye again

so you have two distinct sections to the game, first the girl discovers a mystery and goes to investigate perhaps with her own distinct weapon set leading to a climax where she gets caught and sends the message to Garrett, then Garrett does his knight in stealthy armour bit with his more traditional set of tools

and of course this is the Thief universe we're talking about so you can weave some fairly devious twists into the plot, like is the girl really asking for help or has she become corrupted in some way and is trying to lure Garrett to his doom, he is the head of the order and has knowledge that would be useful to the right people or even the right deities

in the final meeting, the girl could be corrupt and handled by an AI, she could be dead leading to a revenge scenario, she could be in need of rescue but whatever happens now we would have access to both weapon toolsets and use them to deal with the mystery that started the whole deal

so the user plays the girl in the first part, and garrett in the second, the final mission where both characters are present you could set it up so the user has a choice of which character to play say they are both in a cell/dungeon/oubliette and the first to try and escape somehow seals the cell preventing the escape of the other

then the scene closes leaving Garrett wondering if he should return to the order or continue with his old ways, after all he's just had the most fun he's had in years why should it end

leaving the game open to the possibility of thi5f :rolleyes: :lol: or a spinoff game for the female character if the fans take to her

...and of course these two characters would now be around the same age so T5XXX perhaps

Tohtori

05-13-2009, 01:10 PM

I can't see why you want Garret so much. He has saved the world for tree times. Give him a rest. I personally would like to see someone else as protagonist and Garret could be his/her mentor. A girl could be ok but not the stunningly beauty like other games have. Ugly and cynical female lead character would be something new.

And even with Garret as mentor it would be his story (:

Direlord

05-13-2009, 01:18 PM

She would have to be cynical afterall Garrett was her mentor and probably father figure. Ugly though? i don't see that happening unless you give her a nasty scar. She can still be a decent beauty but more along the lines of a normal fit woman instead of lara croft.

tender19

05-13-2009, 01:22 PM

No question here. Garrett = Thief. With Stephen Russell, of course.

The_Hammerite

05-13-2009, 02:24 PM

Another element to consider in terms of possibly having a co-op game separate from the main singleplayer storyline would be a string of high-stakes thefts, Garrett overseeing the girl demonstrating all she's learned. By separate I mean along the lines of the co-op in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.

Ice1019

05-13-2009, 02:53 PM

No doubt this girl is going to be good-looking, you will never see an ugly main character outside of a comedy. But, she can be a little more rough-around-the-edges than usual. I definitely don't want to play Thief Raider. It would be interesting to see how much of Garrett's amorality rubs off on her. Garrett's jabs at the wealthy feng-shui (or lack thereof) was one of the best parts, and I'd love to see that continued, even if it isn't Garrett saying it.

Co-op could be a cool idea for a new character if they keep Garrett as the main character (which I would be cool with), although I would hope that's the only influence Splinter Cell has on Thief 4.

Corvin25

05-14-2009, 05:37 AM

We all love Garrett. And it would really alienate a lot of the fanbase if he wasn't the main character... ot at least the PRIMARY played character.

The girl should probably show up though..... Oh, I just got an idea.

What if you played as the adopted girl for the TUTORIAL mission? A few years older, obviously. But since Garrett is teaching her his tricks, it would make sense for him to explain how to control the character. In the end, once you finish all the exercises, he could tell her that she's making excellent progress, and that with a few more years of physical training, she'll be ready to start her career.

If for some reason she has to go on a mission herself, like say, to bust Garrett out of prison or to escape from raiding City Watch officers when Garrett is not there... She should have some limitations, as she is not the master thief Garrett is yet. Perhaps she cannot use a bow, since she is not yet proficient in its use... and obviously she has no "zoom" feature since she still has both her eyes.

... If you decide to go the prequel road though, (From the start of his traning, to the day he left the keepers), obviously you wouldn't play anybody but Garrett.

Silmuen

05-14-2009, 07:06 AM

I do not see why Garrett would be teaching the girl his tricks. He is a loner. And they're HIS tricks.

Unless he has a very good reason and a benefit from it.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk

05-14-2009, 10:31 AM

Ageing masters tend to want to leave a legacy, especially to people they deem having talent and/or remind them of themselves.

kamilavalamp

05-14-2009, 11:07 AM

garret must remain as the protagonist in the story and be voiced by the same person or someone who sounds EXACTLY like him, and if he does not want to than make a voice just like his digitally

Jayy

05-15-2009, 05:19 AM

Thief without Garret...let...me...think.....nooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!:mad2:

Dia1

05-15-2009, 05:31 AM

No Garrett in T4? I agree with whomever said that making a character other than Garrett the main protagonist in T4 would definitely alienate a lot of Thief fans. I'd be one of those alienated. I've played FMs wherein the main character was someone other than Garrett and it broke the immersion for me every time, no matter how well done the FM was. I just can't see anyone other than Garrett as the Master Thief.

I'd like to share an image of one of my worst T4 nightmares:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/Diah_/2714270593_8b7e9936b7copy.jpg

Nope. Just doesn't do a thing for me. (Maybe 'cuz I'm not prepubescent or fixated on mammary glands?.) :hmm:

tender19

05-15-2009, 06:52 AM

Well, if a girl would be the main protagonist, please do not put a hottie there, with every inch of her body visible. Her face would be more than enough. Masked better. But yeah, I want Garrett of course, not Garretina.

Fiddlesticks

05-15-2009, 08:42 AM

Short and sweet: YES!

Croda

05-15-2009, 07:05 PM

Something I’ve seen noticed posted rather often in this thread is that Stephen Russell = Garret. Taking that into consideration, let us first consider the possibility of a prequel. Would a sarcastic, cynical character with a mature voice make sense for someone in his teens? No, probably not. That voice is quite suitable for the years within the arc of the first 3 thief games, but for Garret as a youth? Rather doubtful. If you can’t have Stephen Russell as a voice actor how much do you still want Garret?

I personally was drawn to this series by a couple of main aspects. First, it was the gameplay concept. It’s fun as hell to sneak around and steal stuff from people. Then there’s the fact that the story and main character actually fits the setting. There’s more than one video game that has been ruined by a bad mesh of character personality, character background and setting. If someone grows up on the streets, you don’t expect them to be all warm and bubbly and optimistic of the goodwill of people. You expect them to be jaded and cynical, something which fits Garret to a T. A master thief would likely have a great deal of confidence in his abilities. Garret, confidence? Check.

Now, let’s debate a youthful Garret. Would he be as confident? Probably not. He’d have a lot less experience. Yes, he’d have his keeper training, but having been stuck with the keepers for so long, he’d likely overestimate his ability and mess up at least a few times. So, overconfidence and pride likely. Couple that with a teenager’s general stubbornness and attitude, and you end up with someone very different from the Garret we all know and love. Could we still have a prequel with Garret in it? Of course. Would it be the same? Definitely not.

Now, let’s consider a sequel to thief 3 with Garret once again the main character. I’m going to start right off by saying that I’m personally opposed to this. One thing that I hate is people who drag out their stories just for the option of making it longer. Yes, eidos could probably drag Garret out indefinitely. He’s a much loved character and fanboys everywhere from the thief series would flock to the banner. But would the games and stories be much good? Doubtful. A couple of people have compared Garret in thief to Laura Croft in tomb raider. The difference however is the fact that the draw behind tomb raider to the people who play it is rarely for the story. It’s rarely for the setting, though it adds a certain something I suppose. No, it’s for the fact that chicks with big tits and guns sells. It’s a blatant appeal to the male sex drive and that’s pretty much it. If you try to make Garret into a poster boy you sell him out more surely than anything else you could do. Garret’s story ended with TDS. Don’t cheapen him by dragging him in as the main character again just to boost sales. It might keep the Garret fanatics, but it would piss off quite a few others.

That being said, I’m not saying that he shouldn’t be involved with the next thief. No, it would make a great deal of sense for him to be involved. But it should be in the way of passing the torch to the next generation of thief games. I know someone made the suggestion of having Garret be heavily involved with the mission briefs which would, once again, make sense. The hardcore fan boys would get their Stephen Russell and Garrett, thus bringing their grumblings down a notch. And the rest of us could get a new, well thought out character to be introduced to. And being honest, I don’t think anyone would object to listening to that sort of cynicism and sarcasm between missions anyways. ;)

There’s a lot of opportunities to tweak the gameplay and set up for a new character which would make the game a lot more interesting while still remaining true to the original that having Garret as a main character would likely not exist. That being said, I want to stress one thing above all else. Any new character/innovation has to be GOOD. I think the reason so many people are afraid of change is because Garret has worked in the past and they’re afraid that Eidos will screw it up if given the go ahead by the fans to make a new main character and tweak some game play options. So, I suppose my entire approval of the idea of them making a new character would be entirely reliant on them coming up with a new believable character you can immerse yourself in. If they screw it up and give us a shallow irritating character that you just can’t get hooked on, I’ll join the Garret Lynch Squad and tie the noose myself.

*sigh* That ties up my opinion on why Garret shouldn’t be the main character of the next game. As to the little girl in the end of TDS, I’m going to go with it has possibilities if she becomes the main character of the next game. Perhaps she becomes Garret’s apprentice, which would be an easily doable scenario to come up with. However I don’t think that she should be in a normal apprentice/master relationship with him. I’d expect a street kid to be a lot more wary of strangers proffering gifts, adults wearing cloaks especially. You never see kids on the streets in TDS, perhaps because they are sold by slavers when caught or for some reason are especially wary. But whatever the reason, I wouldn’t expect her to trust someone so easily. I suppose I could see it if she caught Garret’s eye and he watched her from the shadows, perhaps assisting her while remaining unknown. Or perhaps after getting caught by Garret that time, she gets pissed at herself and eventually turns into a rival for him. Either way, there are a lot of possibilities.

In the end though, I want Eidos to take their time with this and make it GOOD. As much as I’m interested in playing the finished product, I’d rather wait a little longer so that they could get the characters and settings to fit right rather than get it a bit sooner and have to deal with a crappy game slapped together so as to cash in on Garret’s fame. You’ve made us wait this long for a new thief game. We can wait a bit longer if that’s what it takes to make it good.

tender19

05-15-2009, 10:53 PM

1N54N3

05-15-2009, 11:05 PM

I really don't think they can stop using Garret without at least ending the storyline with him. As it is now, there hasn't really been any closure (not that there needs to be). My point is, -IF- and I stress if, EM wants to stop using Garret, they should at least make T4 about wrapping up the story with him, and perhaps transition into the little girl for T5 possibly. Simply dropping Garret like a sack of potatoes would just be plain sad.

ToMegaTherion

05-16-2009, 12:04 AM

GmanPro

05-16-2009, 12:31 AM

Yes

tender19

05-16-2009, 01:20 AM

Let's think about this another way. Eventually, over the course of x Thief games, Garrett will have to stop. It can't go on forever without becoming ridiculous. At this point, should we stop making Thief games set in the Thief setting?

It's his destiny. There is more. He will be always drawn into conflicts, because he has talent to solve them. Now also a keeper: more opportunities to make more blackmail-missions instead of just robbing...

Well... that would be no Thief anymore. Why would a keeper steal treasure?

Aaarrgh. Let's banish that bastard :mad2:

Necros

05-16-2009, 01:40 AM

I'd like to share an image of one of my worst T4 nightmares:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c262/Diah_/2714270593_8b7e9936b7copy.jpg
Nope. Just doesn't do a thing for me. (Maybe 'cuz I'm not prepubescent or fixated on mammary glands?.) :hmm:
Well, I think she looks great but I wouldn't like to see her as the protagonist either. As an NPC on the other hand, in a dungeon or something... :cool: :whistle: :D
So, you don't know, why we want Stephen Russell. He did the voice of the mature Garrett, for the young Garrett in the intro, the shy voiced servant guy, several guards and other characters as well... he's a f-in' genius.
:thumb: Exactly, Stephen can do anything. :cool:

ToMegaTherion

05-16-2009, 02:27 AM

The idea of a new thief being somehow manipulated by Garrett is quite ironic, don't you think? It might turn out quite well.

DoomyDoomyDoomDoom

05-16-2009, 06:48 AM

To be honest I don't want to put an end to Garrett. I see no reason to end Garrett's saga. There's only been 3 games man. Just put him in there with another thing to do.

I just want another Thief game that I play as Garrett. I don't see another Thief game as moving on with some epic story. It's just another Thief game. Another scenario that Garrett finds himself into. I see no reason to 'move on' or anything like that. It's been years since we had a Thief game. Who cares about moving on with some story. Just give me a new game starring Garrett.

Ever since I saw the end of TDS I had hoped that the next Thief wouldn't be about that girl. Especially because I'm sure she would act as some kind of sexy lure to sell the game. Hey maybe she can use her looks as a gameplay element to distract guards. beh.

I dig goth chicks though and a thiefsie girl character would be so deliciously goth. mmm. At least, she better be.

siklara

05-16-2009, 07:09 AM

I have a ridiculously simple argument: for me the title can't refer to anyone else, but to our beloved Masterthief, Garrett. :D

Garrett=Thief
BUT
Thief =/= Garrett, because it's about so much more!

Flashart

05-16-2009, 07:11 AM

The Thief trilogy up to now is hardly a massive story, there's plenty of scope for
development. It's the quality of story that will be the deciding factor. The gameplay will be
essentially the same whatever character is used.
If, for example the next 3 Thief games were epic nail-biting, compelling narratives I don't
believe anyone would complain that Garrett is still the game character. If they were terrible
everyone would moan that Garrett is washed-up.
It's the quality of story that counts. Simply saying "I don't believe they can write a successful sequel..." is no argument.
If T4 demonstrates enough invention, for adaption, change, or even reinvention for T5 fine.
But from what I can tell, the majority of folks regard T3 as an unsatisfactory end to Garrett's narrative. I really do think the end of T3 was so deliberately vague to offered an option to go either way, which is why we're having this debate.
I'll continue my begging for an editor as it would allow Garrett to live on in FM's for those that wish. I think then more people would be open to change.

Gan Xodos

05-16-2009, 07:23 AM

I loved thief 3's ending...

BlooferLady

05-16-2009, 07:59 PM

For me, I wonder what this new Thief game will be about. TDP: Garrett v. Pagans, TMA: Garrett v. Mechanists/Hammers, TDS: Garrett v. Keepers. We've kind of covered all of the factions, and had a wonderful final cutscene where the story, Garrett's story, came full circle. That's the main reason I see for bringing in a new character. Otherwise, please give us back Garrett, and only if we can have Stephen Russel do the voice acting. If we can't have him, I'm good with a new main character.

Someone mentioned having a new character whose plot gets entangled with Garrett's own missions. I kind of like that idea, having to contend with our favorite thief. Of course, that means in the end that either one of them would have to lose (sadness!) or they would end up working together. That has a lot of cheesiness potential, and they would need a five-star storyteller in here to get it right without making me want to vomit.

LightWarriorK

05-16-2009, 08:30 PM

I think Garrett should play a part, but doesn't neccessarilly be the main character that the player controls.

I'd almost rather see the player control his young female appentice. Give her more of a Jade (from Beyond Good and Evil) feel rather than a Lara Croft feel, and I think it might work.

SudisBetter

05-17-2009, 08:27 AM

must be garret no way

kaekaelyn

05-17-2009, 01:33 PM

If Garrett is not the main character, I will miss him sorely, not to mention his mechanical eye. I just don't know how I'll live without his sarcastic quips. If there's a way to write him into the story, given the wrap-up of TDS, please write him in. If there's not, well, you have to really sell me on this new character! (S)he's got to have as much personality as Garrett, and he's a damn hard act to follow.

burrickfart

05-17-2009, 01:46 PM

Garrett is the only thief ever worth playing. Don't ever forget that!
Let him apprentice the girl at the end of TDS, and have her draw him into some huge near-apocalyptic ordeal (Preferably involving giant moving trees again).
Or have her turn against Garrett, leading to an all out battle for thief supremacy. Then we can club her and feed her to the watch.

huzi73

05-17-2009, 03:07 PM

This is just my crappy idea...1st of all,Garrett wasnt trained as a thief,he was trained to be a keeper.How about Garrett training the girl from the TDS ending in the way of the keeper?Garrett is now all laid back and running the show as a keeper,dedicating his time to somehow...(I just realized,this probably doesnt belong here,I'll make a PLOT thread instead...)

DarknessFalls

05-17-2009, 04:14 PM

Stephen Russell as Garrett only, please. No other female or male lead. No sidekick helping out either. (Sidekicks are too prevalent these days and they spoil the sense of aloneness and vulnerability. take prince of persia, for example, or resident evil 5, or turok the latest version, or any number of squad based games. sidekicks ruin games for me - especially 'isolated, loner games' - and would certainly ruin Thief, imo.) Garrett as a loner is ideal for me. i can see maybe one mission where there is an up and coming thief helping out in a part of a level or thru the level, or something, but nothing more. i would want that other guy to go off and do his own thing- u might stumble across him a few times in the shadows as u both work thru the level... not a constant sidekick at your heels. maybe he double crosses u in a later level. and i would not want that sidekick helper character becoming the lead in a Thi5f. just my two cents. And spending time, energy and resources on making a second character option to play, as mentionend earlier in thread, would just take thosoe resources away from building stellar levels and awesome gameplay for Garrett. Dont be distracted by trying to please everyone who is not a Thief fan by adding a bunch of character options and customizations...it will dilute the Thief fan's game or it will not be as good as it otherwise could have been. save money and resources by not developing big budget CG-ized teaser trailers too. That money could be better spent making a quality game. The first time I played Thief and heard Garrett talk to himself like I was him (thief 2), I was like F yeah! this will be one awesome game

WVI

05-18-2009, 12:09 PM

Okay, guys? I love the series and all, but Garrett isn't that spectacular a character. He is replaceable.

Seriously.

Palmberg

05-19-2009, 02:15 PM

Okay, guys? I love the series and all, but Garrett isn't that spectacular a character. He is replaceable.

Seriously.

Well, that's your opinion. I on the other hand think he really is spectacular.

What isn't spectacular however is the damn apprentice idea, so clichéd and out of character for Garrett. I didn't really take the TDS ending seriously, it seems like Ion storm meant it to be the ending of the series, and put in the scene with the girl just as a throw back to the beginning of TDP, a nod to the fans nothing more.

Petike the Taffer

05-20-2009, 01:19 PM

Garrett should remain the protagonist for most of the game, but there should also be missions with the girl as his apprentice and possible future replacement.

Garrett has evolved as a character throughout all three games and has certainly become less antisocial and misanthropic than he was years ago, when he got pissed and left the Keepers. Of course, he's still the rough and alienated antihero and deadpan snarker he always was, but he's learnt and matured, feeling he's growing old and won't be able to remain the best thief and Keeper-like protector of balance forever...

The relationship between him and his would-be adopted daughter should be by no means idillic. Garrett has a good heart, but he's used to being a loner and pretty much sticking to himself. Conflicts between the two are therefore logical - though, please, I would hate to see the clichéd "oh, look, I'm in puberty, you don't understand me, I'm so angsty..." approach to the whole thing. Lets just say the girl feels unappriciated by her mentor. He's an old grumpy lion and she's just a young cub, who'll have to win his full respect.

For the most part, I could imagine the girl doing what Garrett originally did to survive on the streets - running and delivering messages, but in this case, from fence to fence. She'd only be in an early stage of training by Garrett, who felt reluctant to start giving her thieving lessons after she didn't turn out to be as talented as much as he originally thought she was. After he starts to regret the whole idea of taking her in (around the middle of the game), she convinces him, that she wants to seriously follow his path and live up to his legendary reputation. She starts to show avid effort during training and Garrett gradually starts admiring her relentless will to become a full-blown pro like him.

So, you would only play a few short mini-missions for her, running some messages and valuable loot that Garrett didn't have the time or possibility to deliver. You'd still use stealth - actually, only ghosting, no weaponry...

And they should NEVER go together on a real mission. She's young, not a thief yet, thieving is still Garrett's job. They could experience the last few events of the game together, but the girl would only be a computer-controlled NPC, watching from a secure distance or appearing only in a cutscene.

Petike the Taffer

05-20-2009, 01:37 PM

Dont be distracted by trying to please everyone who is not a Thief fan by adding a bunch of character options and customizations...

Now that was just... If Thief IV has to be interesting, quality and appealing, it should feature a lot of choices and customization of difficulty and realism : Casual gamers will play on the easiest stealth level with all HUDs on and enough gear, hard-core fans will tune the game options so they could ghost, NPC AI at the highest level of awareness, nearly no gear and no visible HUDs (except the light gem).

AbysmalGale

06-01-2009, 05:54 AM

Platinumoxicity

06-01-2009, 06:11 AM

I just realized how incredibly much I would miss Garrett if he wouldn't be the main character in Thief 4.

Couldn't find a thread about merely this very subject (sorry if there already was one). What are your opinions on this? Would you rather see a new character as the master thief, or do you want Garrett to make a comeback?

This is one of my greatest fears in T4, not seeing Garrett in the main role. Garrett IS the Thief series! The atmosphere wouldn't be the same without him!

Don't worry about it. It's a subconciously injected delusion that occurs after you've played TDS. Garrett is not going away. Everyone has just thrown around that baseless rumor for so long that people start to believe Garrett's removal more that his appearance in T4. Don't listen to the rumors for a while and slowly you'll realize that it doesn't make any sense.

Knight

06-06-2009, 01:00 PM

When the little girl will be adult, then garrett should be an old man, cuse he cant just rejuvenate, the glyphs are over

Master Taffer

06-06-2009, 01:04 PM

COnsidering the little girl seems to be 6 to 8 years old, why would she be the protagonist?

goldsla

06-06-2009, 01:17 PM

Did anyone say this had to be a sequel? Could this not be set between T1 and T3 in time? In that event the entire issue goes away, no? Or, if this is a sequel, who says the Keepers got it right. Maybe it is not the end but a new begining ...

But back on track, the more I think about it, the more I don't want them to muck about withGarrett as the protagonist. Stick with Garrett. Evolve him; maybe a little more reflective as he ages, but still a pretty cocky SOB. Just don't go switching protagonists between missions. I've never seen that done well. As a player I get committed to a character, and it takes me out of the suspension of disbelief when I am forced to switch roles mid-game. A character flaw, I'm sure, but that's how it is.

Elentarien

06-06-2009, 05:03 PM

I would have to agree with the majority here. Garrett IS Thief. He's what caught my attention when I started playing and what made me buy the 3rd game, and what keeps me coming back for more.

That being said, I think a good part of what has made him so unique and capturing for the games is the fact that the character is very well defined. In the fact that he's not well defined at all. lol

Seriously, though. I think that is what makes him so appealing. The character is only sketched out. You know a little bit about him, enough for us to get a 'sense' of him, and enough that we can agree on some of his basic traits and characteristics. But the entire depth of the character is completely open to each individual player to 'fill in' as they see fit.

Some see him as a complete loner, some don't (or rather, we know he is, but is he a loner by choice? By fear? Is he just unable to find anyone to trust? Or does he really enjoy being alone so much? The games don't tell you, only we, as the players can decide). Some see him as greedy and selfish, some just see him as 'trying' (but never quite succeeding?) to get ahead, but has a good heart, despite his voiced reluctance to do anything for anyone else. Some see him as rough and ugly, others see him as handsome and a semi-Robin Hood type. (Kinda-sorta-not really-but somewhere in there type place)

I KNOW my 'idea' of the char is not the same as other players - though I like my ideas, thank you, and I like the games to date have left it open enough that even with the char development we've seen, he's still open to my interpretations of him.

I would say whatever is done with him in this one - it should be kept the same way. Define only the essentials that we *MUST* know about him (or pick up on ones we already know, better yet); and leave the rest open for players to fill in with their own visions. The ambiguity of his character has actually been a good thing.

Ex. In the first games, he's shown himself to be kind of greedy. BUT, it hasn't been defined whether he's actually being *greedy*, or is he just trying to get along in hard times, in a world that's none-to-gentle with those on the bottom? We've seen his apartments in two of the games. He's not exactly living high. So is it greed or is it something else? Its up to the player to figure this out and decide for themselves.

In this way he's semi-customizable, unique to each player. Unlike most games that have the character down hard and fast and there's very little room for your own 'build up' of the char because they are being spoon fed to you.

So, yeah. Garrett should DEFINITELY be the main char, with his original voice actor (just wouldn't be the same with another voice *shudders at the thought*.

nydusordos

06-07-2009, 04:03 PM

Okay, guys? I love the series and all, but Garrett isn't that spectacular a character.

I disagree, and I think you'll find that many of the Thief fans really REALLY like him as a character, myself included.

He is a departure from the the generic morally superior hero forced down our throats so often who I enjoy tossing off a cliff every now and again (*cough*Gordon Freeman*cough*). Garrett is a character the epitomizes the uniqueness of the Thief games.

He is replaceable.

Yet you are right on this one. I certainly won't boycot this game if they decide to go in a new direction and have a new main character (depending on who the new main character is of course). I would like Garrett to be in the game in a major way, but when you have a new team putting together a sequel, sometimes it is better for all involved if they do take it in a bit of new direction.

There are sequels that ruin entire francises (StarControl 3 anyone?).

- Ordos

Crypto

06-07-2009, 04:29 PM

Garrett must be the (only) playable character.

Here's my idea: Garrett takes the girl under his wing. Over the course of a few years he trains her as a Keeper. One night, while drunk, he accidentally pushes her into the poisonous waters of TDS, causing her to die instantly upon inhaling the foul devil's liquid.

The storyline of Thief 4 commences the following day.

Nate

06-07-2009, 05:06 PM

Hehe, here is my idea.

Garrett trains the girl. She moves in with him. She becomes a total b***h. She takes Garrett to the cleaners. Garrett is kicked to the curb and has to rebuild his retirement savings.

The storyline of Thief 4 commences the following day.

Platinumoxicity

06-08-2009, 01:09 AM

The whole idea of Garrett training the girl takes so many years off Garrett that if they'd do that, Garrett would have to be replaced, and nobody wants that to happen*. Garrett was about 14 when the keeper caught him in the street. The girl that Garrett met was about 6. Did you ever see keeper acolytes in the compound that were under the age of 20? Garrett would be a worthless old bastard after he's trained the girl, and that is probably the cheapest and most anticlimatic way to get rid of Garrett.

*No, no... Even if you welcome the idea of a female protagonist, you don't honestly want that to happen. No-one can hate Garrett that much.

Hal9000

06-08-2009, 09:51 PM

Garrett and his "charisma" are what make Thief as appealing as it is. Thief II was the pinnacle of gaming, in my opinion. Of course, the first Thief mission was also amazing...

I personally don't like switching between characters that much in a game as it ruins my suspension of disbelief. It would be ok...but not as excellent as it could be.

Thief III was the worst of the Thief games by far. I think that Eidos needs to learn from the mistakes of it and, especially, learn from Thief I and II.

I personally wouldn't mind playing a "pre-Thief I."

I think Stephen Russell must be kept, Garrett must be kept, and the feel of the first two Thiefs must be kept, otherwise the game is simply a new game riding on the fame of the name.

HorseManDemon

06-14-2009, 10:20 PM

Garrett is the one, true thief. He's the only character even worth considering as a main character. If Garrett isn't the main character, this isn't a game in the Thief series, pure and simple. Just because a character is riding high at the end of a game/movie, doesn't mean they can't fall pretty quickly. Ok, Garrett gets the powers of the glyphs, well whoop-dee-freaking-doo. For all we know the glyphs don't DO anything for him. And for the record, no way in hell Garrett would take an apprentice. Nope. Sorry. Not gonna happen.

I played the hell out of TDP, and TMA. I even picked up that piece of **** TDS for a play-through, simply because Garrett was the main character. Hell, he was the only good thing ABOUT TDS. Then I went to play T2x when it came out, got about 4 missions in, and said "The hell with it, I don't give 2 ****s about this girl." and quit. I imagine I'd have similar sentiments towards this game, if it doesn't include the master thief, himself.

Aristofiles

06-15-2009, 08:11 AM

Garrett!!!! as long as the story is great i dont give a damn about the girl but i do feel that its gives the story writers a great chanse to add som dept to the game

fayfuya

06-16-2009, 11:24 AM

Garrett

nydusordos

06-16-2009, 10:06 PM

Hypevosa

06-16-2009, 10:16 PM

He gave back the artifacts the builder's chalice and the jacknalls paw... the heart, the eye, and the crown we don't know what happened to. The heart is a giant ruby, and could probably be cut and sold, the crown could be sold, maybe melted down, and Garrett might have a special plan for the eye because it threatened to take his other one. He couldn't very well sell the builder's challice or the jacknalls paw, because who would buy them? As well he needed to stop the war between the pagans and the hammers "Two giants wake from slumber, two blades clashing, each blames the other, for what the thief has done." By giving the items back he could at least temporarily placate the two sides, and return peace to the city (you know how at the end they were fighting in the streets...). Especially considering he started the whole ordeal, it was necessary... the items served their purpose anyways.

He hasn't necessarily given up on thieving... in fact, if you look at his smile at the end of the last cut scene, he still looks like he has the same demeanor of Garrett of old.

jtr7

06-16-2009, 10:16 PM

I just realized it strongly suggests that Garret has given up on his thieving ways (he returns the major artifacts he stole and refers to himself as a Keeper).

Nope. He can't be any kind of Keeper we've ever seen. There's no suggestion he's given up thieving whatsoever. We don't know what happened to three of the five Sentients, and we really don't know if he returned the other two, but it seems that way.

Platinumoxicity

06-17-2009, 01:44 AM

Hey guys,

I just finished replaying deadly shadows.

I just realized it strongly suggests that Garret has given up on his thieving ways (he returns the major artifacts he stole and refers to himself as a Keeper).

I think this is going to put the developers in a bit of a bind. Basically pretend that ending didn't happen or have Garrett to be a completely different kind of character if they want him to be the protagonist of a Thief style game.

- NO

That is basic assumption of what happened when you look at the whole story with brains shut off starting from T1 and ending to the end of TDS. You need to look deeper instead of automatically piecing together what it seems to look like.

The very end of TDS was a storytelling gimmick called "full circle". It doesn't necessarily have any relevance to the actual plot, it's outside it. The devs used it to make a nice, poetic end to the series. Observing this, you can see that the moment where Garrett refers to himself as a "keeper" is inside this storytelling gimmick, so it doesn't hold that much relevance to the actual end cutscene before, where Gamall's plans are ruined.

esme

06-17-2009, 03:02 AM

I thought the artefacts returned themselves ?

they are sentients after all, the eye used to be locked in a cellar in the haunted cathedral but was routinely found floating over the altar by morning

I mean Garrett is left staring at the new dawn so how does he find the time ?

Hypevosa

06-17-2009, 03:34 AM

Platinumoxicity

06-17-2009, 03:59 AM

They may be called sentients, but they are still inanimate objects. The eye even comments on how the others haven't learned to talk yet. I believe Garrett returned the chalice and the jacknall's paw, and probably sold the 2 that weren't the eye, and who knows what he's done with the eye.

The Eye was locked in a magically sealed cathedral that needed 4 lost keys to open, the place was in the middle of a devastated city full of undead and disease, the cathedral was occupied by ghosts and fierce skeletal warriors. That's the way to secure a powerful artifact. The way the Eye was put in a museum and guarded by a few weak men was ridiculous. Garrett probably gave the Eye to the keepers again so that they can put it in a safe place instead of a public building like the museum where the clever little rock can manipulate the weak minds of the populous.

esme

06-17-2009, 04:01 AM

...The eye even comments on how the others haven't learned to talk yet...and did it ever let us know it could talk, damn thing never shut up

Hypevosa

06-17-2009, 04:02 AM

you mean he gave the most powerful sentient to a bunch of (now) weakened/depressed/power hungry people? I highly doubt Garrett would take the risk... the eye is all too persuasive, and it wouldn't have any trouble convincing the keepers who were holding onto it to take it wherever it wanted to go, and do whatever it wanted to do. Let's hope he didn't make that mistake, because it could serve as a decent plot for T4. The keepers form the cult of the eye, **** goes down.

Hypevosa

06-17-2009, 04:03 AM

and did it ever let us know it could talk, damn thing never shut up

It's the same technique girls use to make guys go crazy. It works rather well.

:P lol

Platinumoxicity

06-17-2009, 04:21 AM

esme

06-17-2009, 07:05 AM

It's the same technique girls use to make guys go crazy. It works rather well.

:P lol
OI ! blokes are mental enough in my experience, we don't need to do anything to them :rasp:

jtr7

06-17-2009, 10:19 AM

The Heart and The Eye are attention-seekers and like to mess with people's minds, even killing them. With the activation of The Eye, the Sentients were biding their time, doing their part, but amusing themselves. I doubt The Eye was placed in the museum by anybody stupid, and may have even placed itself where it would be found. The Sentients go where they will and answer to no one--except for the pact they made with the Keepers, sealed with (likely) blood--and need strong containment to hold them against their will. These Soul Stones do think and act. With the Keeper aspect destroyed, the pact no longer holds and has been fulfilled. It's possible there's more to the pact than the Final Glyph, and The Eye (without the Keeper aspect) may still have something left to do. The Final Glyph was said to culminate in their annihilation, and obviously that didn't necessarily mean physically. We can't see The Eye in the receptacle in the fountain to know if it was still there. Knowing what Garrett knows, he wouldn't be stupid enough to sell any of them. Really, don't make light of these things. We know what the Heart and Eye and Chalice are capable of. Just because we didn't see what the Paw and Crown were capable of doesn't mean they weren't malicious or powerful.

Hypevosa

06-17-2009, 11:46 AM

the crown doesn't seem to do anything really except float and glow >_> we know the jacknalls paw will strangle you for not giving it the proper sacrifices.

jtr7

06-17-2009, 11:49 AM

None of the Sentients had to touch anybody to cause grievous or sickening harm. They had personalities, but the Paw and Crown are the youngest of the Sentients, and the quietest. The other three are awful in power.

The Invertamus Glyph was already too tempting for de-aging one's self. It was considered unbalanced to use Glyphs like this, and some were suspected of using it. Good ol' Caduca could certainly have used it, but she was balanced.

Hypevosa

06-17-2009, 12:04 PM

watch them make all the sentients form some super being... The crown (head), eye (brains and sight), Heart, Jacknall's paw (hand), and the chalice could be like a protective covering for the heart. We have to kill it final boss style... please don't really I'm joking.

jtr7

06-17-2009, 12:16 PM

I was thinking about that stuff, too, even before TDS, with the golden bones, the Mystic's Heart and Soul, and The Eye. :thumb:

R3AL

06-18-2009, 11:52 AM

It just wouldn't be thief without Garret.As for the little girl at the end of thief 3,Maybe you train her and later on in the story she tries to betray you?That would be a cool curve ball.

jtr7

06-18-2009, 11:55 AM

Garrett would never take a person in. She's not the only child living on the streets, and Garrett wasn't even hiding when she saw him.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/jtr7/UrchinGirl.jpg

LOL

kaekaelyn

06-18-2009, 11:59 AM

For some reason when I watched the end cutscene of TDS, I always got the impression that he said that she was talented to see a Keeper, chuckled to himself at his own joke, and then swept off into the night. Like a badass. And this wasn't influenced in any way by my eagerness to see Garrett as the protagonist of a Thief IV installment, because it hadn't even crossed my mind.

Platinumoxicity

06-18-2009, 12:06 PM

Pieter888

06-18-2009, 12:12 PM

I guess it's more than obvious to say (when I read trough the pages of this thread) that Garret is the big favorite for thi4f.
The ending of TDS doesn't have anything to do with a continueation of the plot with the girl. It was just a reference to the beginning of either thief 1 or 2 (don't remember which one...).

The answer for the developers is simple: use Garret!
The process however is not, the story pretty much ended int TDS, making it a real challenge to "start it back up again".

I hope they can pull this off.
If not... The popularity of the game will drop tremendously.

jtr7

06-18-2009, 12:15 PM

Thief 1, of course, when Garrett was a street urchin himself and the Keeper recruited him.

But yes.

Platinumoxicity

06-18-2009, 12:22 PM

Thief 1, of course, when Garrett was a street urchin himself and the Keeper recruited him.

But yes.

Also, you can't forget the fact that the Keeper asked Garrett if he would like to come with him. Garrett had the bawls to go with a creepy old man. The girl wouldn't necessarily be that reckless. ;)

jtr7

06-18-2009, 12:34 PM

Exactly. The Keeper addressed him, asked him his name, called him 'lad', and offered him a different path. I still believe the Keeper was waiting for him, since they went by the Glyphs to decide their actions and determine which weights in the pans need shifting. There's no way Garrett wasn't foretold about, even if they didn't know he was the "Thief" or "The One".

Garrett was amusing himself, though not unkindly to her.

ToMegaTherion

06-18-2009, 12:42 PM

I am now quite convinced that the idea that Garrett recruits or trains that girl is a horrible continuation.

R3AL

06-19-2009, 02:40 PM

forget the girl all together,if you stray from garret,you'll have a lot of angry thief fans to deal with,And a huge drop in sales.

braZen

06-19-2009, 05:12 PM

I just read that Garrett was the top rated hero ever in a vote on Gamespot. Why the heck would you want to mess with that kind of love???

Would Seinfeld have worked without Jerry?
Would All in the Family have worked without Archie?
Would The Brady Bunch have worked without Al the Butcher?

Please.

jtr7

06-19-2009, 05:22 PM

Hahahaha! :D

R3AL

06-20-2009, 03:20 AM

once again,nice...lol

Finally its Garrett

06-21-2009, 10:32 AM

Garrett IS Thief so he have to be the mainchar.
and the litle girl in the end of Thief3.. pls etablished this end in Thief4 (maybe he teaches her as a new keeper or she has a great misterious role of T4 - however this is your job Eidos^^)

but dont ignore t3-ending then so it can't be a thief-game ._.

Platinumoxicity

06-21-2009, 10:34 AM

Could you plz edit out that thing you mentioned that we don't want to bring up. :p
You know...

Keeper Llorsen

06-21-2009, 10:04 PM

Play some missions as the girl, others as Garrett (her mentor). Or even tag-team in the middle of a mission. Makes everybody happy, and also makes for some innovative gameplay, which is the foundation of this franchise.

It seems that Eidos Montreal haven't decided on anything concrete and are asking the fans for input which is a good thing.

Garrett will be the most popular choice, by far. But he MUST be played by Stephen Russel. Anything else would be a total fail.

There is one confounding factor with choosing him - how is the plot going to progress beyond Thief 3? There had better be a compelling reason to use him and by that I mean a very coherent plot continuation because the fans will not like a nonsense plot that "spoils" the character. Having said that using another character would be sooooo risky. I personally would favour Garrett in a continuation from T3.

Victoria - do a poll. The result is a foregone conclusion though.

Garrett should stay as the main character, only if you get Stephen Russel to play him. There should be optional side missions that involve the little girl. If you're unable to use Stephen Russel, then Garrett needs to be heavily involved in the game.

This.
It would be very difficult and complicated to just completely use Garrett.. and him alone.
But maybe you could play missions are Garrett that were like lessons for the Girl, and the Girl in turn could play missions to grow in apprenticeship with Garrett, or something like that, and although I don't like the idea outright, maybe play as Garrett with the girl being a npc with scripted actions, like opening mechanical doors or dropping off gear, or selling gear, during missions, or maybe having some link with your mechanical eye to see things from a different perspective.. or even, have her gather info about the mission, and what you need to steal, and you play her, gathering information, and you, in a separate mission, stealing.. idk, but that might take some getting used to.

jtr7

06-21-2009, 10:21 PM

And maybe Garrett could get married to Basso's sister, settle down, open up a sandwich shop, and the Girl could play with Dewdrop while seeing if she can get away with stealing pickles while Garrett's "not looking". Garrett could use his blackjack to tenderize the steaks he cuts up for his sandwiches, and the Girl could steal him his special bag of holding full of supplies from the market.

ToMegaTherion

06-22-2009, 12:25 AM

That would be a hit on the Wii.

CaptainObvious

06-22-2009, 02:22 AM

I guess I could live without Garrett as long as the core of the game stays true to the previous incarnations and they give us a compelling main character.

tLK1990

06-22-2009, 02:28 AM

But Garrett must be a part of the game!!!For example as the teacher of the new thief...

esme

06-22-2009, 04:34 AM

But Garrett must be a part of the game!!!For example as the teacher of the new thief...

gets my vote .... just remove "teacher of the new" and we are in perfect agreement

AbysmalGale

06-22-2009, 09:55 AM

Is this discussion still on? A game without Garrett cannot be named "Thief". What is the problem with understanding that? If this new game has a protagonist known as something else than Garrett, then EM can feel free to name it "ThiAf" for all I care.

CaptainObvious

06-22-2009, 09:58 AM

Well, it's called "Thief" and not "Garrett", so as long as the character is a thief the name would be justified.:rasp:

AbysmalGale

06-22-2009, 09:59 AM

Well, it's called "Thief" and not "Garrett", so as long as the character is a thief the name would be justified.:rasp:

And Tomb Raider is not called Lara Croft, and who would ever dream about switching her?

ToMegaTherion

06-22-2009, 11:19 AM

Yotun explained, what seems like 15 years ago now, that Tomb Raider should be part of the anti-Garrett argument, not the pro-Garrett one.

jtr7

06-22-2009, 11:29 AM

Too much Garrett? What percentage of players think that way? It would be another amazing feat by the new company to top Garrett or create a character on par. I know people are saying Garrett's story is over, but really it's not, if there's a new game to show the aftermath. There are many things left hanging to go off of, but the trilogy is complete in itself.

ToMegaTherion

06-22-2009, 12:19 PM

Other than being well voiced, there isn't really anything special about Garrett's character. There isn't much to it.

jtr7

06-22-2009, 12:57 PM

'Kay.

Keeper Llorsen

06-22-2009, 01:40 PM

Other than being well voiced, there isn't really anything special about Garrett's character. There isn't much to it.

Aww dude..

Wrong answer..

ToMegaTherion

06-22-2009, 02:24 PM

I recant. Your insightful and detailed arguments have thoroughly changed my mind.

jtr7

06-22-2009, 02:39 PM

My first reaction is that you only have a superficial idea about Garrett. That's the impression. I don't sat that as fact. There's a lot going on in the fiction that I KNOW hasn't registered in most players' minds, and I'm never surprised when player's missed things, unless it's repeated themes.

Platinumoxicity

06-22-2009, 02:51 PM

Other than being well voiced, there isn't really anything special about Garrett's character. There isn't much to it.

A hypothetical situation:
When I get my copy of Half-Life 2 : Episode 3, and see all the main characters, the HEV HUD and the crowbar, I assume everything's ok. But then I notice something's wrong. My sleeves are different. It's not and orange HEV Mark 5. What is this? Then Alyx Vance says to me: "Let's go, Edward." What?! They got rid of Gordon Freeman?! He was the best, deepest and most interesting character ever! Although we never saw a glimpse of his face, never heard him say a word, never saw his expression when the portals opened, and never witnessed him expressing any form of emotion whatsoever, we still loved him! How could they do this to us?

There is no way to explain why it is that most of us can't see Thief without Garrett. It's not a concept, it's not something that you can put your finger on, it's not rational, it just... is.

jtr7

06-22-2009, 03:05 PM

It's a favorite character that many would say feels much like a welcome friend to be with--knowing he won't steal anything but your time! Again, the concept of a good novel character.

ToMegaTherion

06-23-2009, 12:20 AM

I like Platinumoxicity's response. It makes sense.

jtr7

06-23-2009, 12:24 AM

Taff off. As long as you have gained some understanding of how human beings work.

Platinumoxicity

06-23-2009, 12:38 AM

I like Platinumoxicity's response. It makes sense.

It was specifically designed to not make sense. Fondness of some character that doesn't have too many, if any likable attributes shouldn't make sense. Especially to those who don't like the character or those who are indifferent about the character.

AbysmalGale

06-23-2009, 02:20 AM

Yotun explained, what seems like 15 years ago now, that Tomb Raider should be part of the anti-Garrett argument, not the pro-Garrett one.

My point is simply how a game is not the "same" game without a certain protagonist. In a game like Thief, the equation is quite simple: Change protagonist = change title.

ToMegaTherion

06-23-2009, 02:25 AM

To Platinumoxicity: I think it makes perfect sense. I think that saying you "just like something" is a lot more respectable and meaningful than a usual justification. Most justifications are usually constructed because saying you "just like" something is for some reason considered inadequate. Explaining opinions is very often a case of not identifying what factors cause the opinion to be held, but rather identifying what factors one can pretend cause the opinion to be held in order to give it some artificial weight.

I like to hear the opinion "I like it, can't really explain why", and I won't consider your opinion to be worth less than others just because you can't explain it to me.

To AbysmalGale: Plenty of series change their main character.

massimilianogoi

06-23-2009, 07:20 PM

Yes of course. Seriously guys, you will BADLY alienate people by changing from Garrett and very much get off on the wrong foot. Please. Don't do it...

Quote, en plein. As I said somewhere here in some post, changing the protagonist would be the greatest error Eidos Montreal could do.

AbysmalGale

06-24-2009, 07:46 AM

quote, en plein. As i said somewhere here in some post, changing the protagonist would be the greatest error eidos montreal could do.

agreed!

ToMegaTherion

06-24-2009, 08:15 AM

A bigger mistake than equipping Garrett with an energy shield and death ray eyes?

AbysmalGale

06-24-2009, 08:40 AM

A bigger mistake than equipping Garrett with an energy shield and death ray eyes?

Of course we mean "the greatest POSSIBLE mistake".

CaptainObvious

06-24-2009, 08:47 AM

Garrett is an important part of the Thief games.

But a Thief game that stays true to the core values of the previous games, but without Garrett would still be better than a game with him as main, but not being a true sneaking game.

A bigger mistake than equipping Garrett with an energy shield and death ray eyes?

This could be actually not totally unreal, I could see them giving Garrett some steampunk gear to enhance his strength in combat or something like this. We don't really have any real track record of Eidos Montreal so we don't know their ways, and something like this may not that farfetched as it sounds.

AbysmalGale

06-24-2009, 08:54 AM

Garrett is an important part of the Thief games.

But a Thief game that stays true to the core values of the previous games, but without Garrett would still be better than a game with him as main, but not being a true sneaking game

Actually, in both cases it would no longer be a Thief-game. No true sneaking = no Thief. No Garrett = no Thief. Paradoxical but true.

ToMegaTherion

06-24-2009, 09:12 AM

Repeating it doesn't make it fact, old boy.

Don't mind people demanding Garrett is in the next Thief game. But putting over-the-top significance on a mere name is really incomprehensible.

AbysmalGale

06-24-2009, 09:28 AM

Repeating it doesn't make it fact, old boy.

Don't mind people demanding Garrett is in the next Thief game. But putting over-the-top significance on a mere name is really incomprehensible.

To some it isn't as important, while to others it is incredibly significant.

ToMegaTherion

06-24-2009, 09:35 AM

I really don't understand why you'd be happy for them to make a game called Burglar set in the same lore with the same gameplay, but not a game called Thief 4. It seems to be placing way too much significance on a name.

Maybe this is due to my gaming background. I mainly play RPGs and strategy games. Looking at the games I have stacked up nearby, pretty much all of them happily change characters in the sequels. It wouldn't even cross my mind to be bothered by a protagonist change in a sequel.

Btw, my curt replies this evening are probably caused by an annoying random foot pain.

braZen

06-24-2009, 10:04 AM

Maybe if you stop biting your toenails your foot pain will die down. Garrett is the thief, he is the one most of us want to see back. I suppose if Eidos cleverly created a storyline that plausibly explained his absence or the "passing of the lockpicks" if you will, many of us would gripe, but still play the game anyway. We aren't playing as a thief, we are playing as Garrett whom we know and like. Part of the fun and fantasy of a good fps in my opinion is getting into the character you are controlling. I think that is why Thief is so endearing and enduring, it's the character development of Garrett infused with the gameplay. Who the hell wants to see Louie Anderson billed as The Cable Guy and saying Git R Done in cut-off plaid button downs? Not me sir! My meds are here somewhere...

massimilianogoi

06-24-2009, 10:36 AM

Yeah! http://www.ttlg.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif Personnages and title are fundamental.

ToMegaTherion

06-24-2009, 10:38 AM

I still think that thinking "It's not an X game because of Y" is a good way to limit your enjoyment without providing any benefits, but each to his own I guess.

massimilianogoi

06-24-2009, 10:46 AM

Yes, but this is for the pure sophists, and they are not interesting.

jtr7

06-24-2009, 12:07 PM

Thinking Garrett is "a mere name" is incomprehensible. Demonstrate that's all he is, and not a character.

ToMegaTherion

06-24-2009, 12:24 PM

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that saying "if you don't have Garrett you can't call it Thief" is potentially restricting your enjoyment (if there's a game called Thief that doesn't have Garrett in it) for no apparent gain. I don't see the point in having a principle that doesn't give you any benefits and could have disadvantages.

Flashart

06-25-2009, 03:10 AM

In actually PLAYING the game, Garrett is just a name. The only thing that breaks this is when he says something to himself. But it's the surrounding story that is the City experienced through Garrett's eye(s) that means he is much more than a name. We're all playing our own version of that "role". In that city, at that time, Garrett is the best character to tell that story. To change character would probably be best done from a blank canvas and a chance to write their own history. But, you'd have to be incredibly lucky to stumble on a character as good as Garrett, not that that's impossible, but it is a pretty risky thing to do. The game mechanics would be the same, but would people like the role?

TaylorMichaelL

06-25-2009, 09:14 AM

T4 should only use Garrett if the story makes sense. Given the end of T3 I'm not sure how that is possible without making him a superhero (with Keeper powers).

Personally I'd rather see T4 be a prequel where the tutorial mission is G as a child running around the Keepers' place causing havoc and meeting the people we'll hear about in the T1-T3 games. At the end of the mission he gets into trouble and opts to leave (as per the folklore). The remainder of the game then involves him learning his trade and meeting the people we hear about in the earlier games. It might even be interesting to see some fliers hanging around town during the game mentioning events that we hear about in the earlier games (like the Cradle fire and/or the murder). IMHO.

Platinumoxicity

06-25-2009, 10:40 AM

T4 should only use Garrett if the story makes sense. Given the end of T3 I'm not sure how that is possible without making him a superhero (with Keeper powers).

Because you can't see anything else than that option, since you have only been focusing your concentration to the very end of TDS without taking the entire trilogy into consideration, I'm sorry to inform you that you are incapable of analytic thinking. My worst fear is that the devs of T4 might be the same. I hope not. I hope they can see the whole picture.

ToMegaTherion

06-25-2009, 10:47 AM

There are much less rude ways of saying "my opinion differs from yours", Platinum.

Scopeh

06-25-2009, 12:12 PM

I am praying Garrett is confirmed as the main character, else I think I am going to give this a miss.

Latest speculation in PC Gamer states that they heard one concept was to set it in a futuristic steam-punk version of the city... with garret as a hoodie.

A HOODIE? A CHARVER? A SCALLY-WAG?

I personally couldn't see garret stealing mobile phones off scrawny kids, and happy slapping old ladies myself...

So I hope Eidos scrap that Idea and return to the root's of T1&T2, albeit with an updated graphics engine and interesting story-line.

ToMegaTherion

06-25-2009, 12:23 PM

Yeah, if I want to see hoodies robbing people in a decaying industrial city I just have to go for a walk in Middlesbrough.

Platinumoxicity

06-25-2009, 12:33 PM

There are much less rude ways of saying "my opinion differs from yours", Platinum.

Sorry, I'm just amazed how someone could even consider anything as stupid as a "magical super keeper" as an alternative. I probably wouldn't have said it in that way if he had an opinion that was a little more original, fitting or based on events seen in the series. I think everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I had an opinion about his opinion. I doubt that anyone would want to take the game into the superhero direction, especially the devs, since it just wouldn't work. T4 would stand out from the series as badly as TDS did, except worse than TDS and because of different problems.

the_eye

06-25-2009, 12:57 PM

Nice that the dev team are considering all the options and asking for opinions!

For me Garrett was always a fascinating character for a few reasons:

- Stephen Russell's voice acting is absolutely fantastic. His characterisation of Garrett is the best in a video game I've ever heard with the exception of Shodan from the System Shock series (the voice actress whom I believe also did voice work in the first two Thief games at TTLG?)

- The amazingly atmosphereic briefing cut scenes were a major factor in letting Garrett's personality shine through and their absence were a major reason the third game wasn't as good. Having Garrett mumble things during a mission just wasn't as atmospheric and the story wasn't developed as well.

"mmm...ooooh, loot glint....mmmm, I'm gonna steal me some of that...because I'm a thief, ha-ha!"

In short PLEASE BRING BACK THE FREAKIN' BRIEFINGS!!! :)

- The scene where Garrett loses his eye in the first Thief game is one of the top ten all time video game moments I can remember. AWESOME. The thing is his character actualy deserves it in a way. He's a flawed character whose greed and self-serving nature lead him into incredibly exciting situations. Featuring zombies. And taffers.

- There is still plenty of room to explore Garrett's character further. I loved the Thief Gold missions where you found out a side story about him operating independently from the thief guilds and incurring their wrath, or even the occasional mission where he just decided to forgo the plot for a little bit and go steal some stuff for fun (despite only ever making enough money for two rope arrows, a flash bomb and still not being able to pay his landlord's rent).

In other words, please keep Garrett. His character is iconic and probably the most memorable for me in years of playing video games.

Except Shodan. But we can talk about her when you start System Shock 3 :) (fun as Bioshock was, it was no System Shock).

Myth

06-25-2009, 07:10 PM

Garrett with class choices: take levels in Pimp to gain the deadly Pimp Smack attack, +2d4 per level vs female guards! Take levels in hobo to better disguise yourself in the new urban setting! Gain access to better equipment: a stealthy flamethrower is any thief's best friend!

See, we can have both a modern setting AND rpg elements... It all fits!

Acorn

06-26-2009, 11:22 AM

I prefer to play only Garrett. He is the THIEF.
The little girl from T3 might become a keeper though they no longer have runes or prophesies they still keep the histories and know/witness the secrets of the city. I don't see Garrett raising her, just handing her over to them to get her off the streets like they did him. She might want to become a thief in t5 or be a keeper, but I don't want her to be the main character.

CavaliereNero

06-27-2009, 02:10 PM

Sorry, I'm just amazed how someone could even consider anything as stupid as a "magical super keeper" as an alternative. I probably wouldn't have said it in that way if he had an opinion that was a little more original, fitting or based on events seen in the series. I think everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I had an opinion about his opinion. I doubt that anyone would want to take the game into the superhero direction, especially the devs, since it just wouldn't work. T4 would stand out from the series as badly as TDS did, except worse than TDS and because of different problems.

I agree that giving Garrett super powers wouldn't be the right way to go. Though, think about the ending of T3: Garrett was revealed as the one true keeper. It wasn't through any usage of magics, or glyphs, or any kind of super power of that sort. He was always the one true keeper, which was why the final glyph branded him at the end. I believe, for Thief 4 to work as a sequel, it shouldn't bestow any powers on him, but instead be an affirmation of the character. He isn't Neo from the matrix, he's a sneak and a thief, and that's part of what made him the one true keeper from the very start, without super or magical powers. That's the kind of character that worked through the first games. Garrett is still that character, and The City is still full of mansions ripe for the plucking.

As to the little girl, I think she should stick with Garrett, just not accompany him on the missions. I see her as more of an Alfred in the batcave, at least for T4, with maybe a minor role in a mission or two if need be, and maybe an expanded role in T5, if we're lucky enough to get that far. Garrett is the man! He should be the star in a thief game.

jtr7

06-27-2009, 02:43 PM

His power is revealed in his totally human and vulnerable character that he can inhabit that world and succeed in undermining and overthrowing characters that are magical, influential, wealthy, and powerful beyond the common people.

Garrett don't need no girl draggin' him down and wastin' his time protecting, feeding, clothing, sheltering...

Ravensnest

06-27-2009, 03:33 PM

I quiet like the idea of having a game based around Garrett (and I agree it would HAVE to be Garrett) running away from his responsibilities. He's done it before and he's always been a loner.

catelee2u

06-27-2009, 05:39 PM

GARRETT GARRETT GARRETT

I could go for an extra protagonist as say in a module add on but definitely not the main game. I've played all three games several times but the first 2 were the best IMO. The third was very good also. It was Garrett that made it though. I like the machines too that the mechanists made...like in the bank there were guard robots. I hear they were no longer being used, I hope that's not true. Rope arrows too - love those.

Ice1019

06-27-2009, 06:40 PM

I think the Thief series is definitely at a crossroads. Most of the characters we have known throughout the series are dead or gone, and we are left with Garrett and this little girl. I'm not saying that Garrett can't be the protagonist, but we've seen most of what Garrett has to offer from a story perspective. If we want a story experience on par with the first two games, we need to see something new and original. It doesn't have to revolve around the girl either, but the City is a big place, and I bet there are a lot of stories to tell that have interesting characters we haven't seen yet.

Njoker

07-02-2009, 11:30 PM

The main character is almost, if not the most, important part of a story. I mean take for instance, Indiana Jones. People love those movies, because, of Indiana Jones. I love Thief, because, of Garrett.

TheEye

07-04-2009, 01:38 AM

everybody should leave garret alone - he is the main character of thief and that's that! since the deed is done i guess eidos could make the first mission a training mission so the player can tryout the kid he found on the street and maybe one more mission with it but garret is classic - he MUST stay!

[PT] Garret [PT]

07-09-2009, 09:05 AM

we cud choose.... if ur a woman and want to play the game u can be the little girl if ur a man u can be Garret.

AngelRose777

07-09-2009, 12:10 PM

I totally agree!! Garret is a must, but that little girl (it was a girl?) can't be ignored. I said as much in another thread b4 I found this one. And as a girl, playing a girl thief actually sounds like a great idea, so the being able to choose would be amazing! You could have 2 seperate storylines seen through the eyes of both characters! They could share the main character place until people became accostumed to her, and then she can take a bigger role in T5. It switches it up without getting rid of Garret (who will always be, without a doubt, the classic protagonist we will forever know and love....and yet *shrugz* you have to let go sometime).

AngelRose777

07-09-2009, 12:17 PM

Oh! But she has to be as witty and sarcastic as Garret or it just wouldn't work. Besides, if she were raised by Garret, she would've picked that up anyway.

...wierd...but kinda cool that Garret would be like a daddy thief...lol!

Hamadriyad

07-09-2009, 12:26 PM

Garrett should be main character. But the girl can't be ignored. I think she will play a important role in Thief. Maybe she will become a villain, we can't know.

Master Artemis

07-09-2009, 01:20 PM

The girl was a little joke by the dev's that's all. It would be stupid to make it seem like Garrett would care about anyone, especially a little girl that evinces no further connection to Garrett than a joke. Two storylines? Baaaad idea. Plus how far in the future are you thinking this wil take place?! The girl in the end of T3 was about 5. If she was to partake in missions, she would have to be at least 20, making Garrett around 40-45... Sorry, but she shouldn't have a role larger than a cameo, or possibly in T5 or even 6 by the pattern of time progression in the series so far.

Hamadriyad

07-09-2009, 01:27 PM

A joke! Wow. But I won't say anything about this anymore. I won't repeat myself.
How do you know T4 timeline? Do you have any information about that? Of course not.
And Artemus, not Artemis

[PT] Garret [PT]

07-10-2009, 12:37 AM

the girl and garret could find themselves in the game and when they try to get the same object they turn into enemies :)

jtr7

07-10-2009, 12:40 AM

Couldn't see that one coming!

Maybe she's Viktoria's child in human form!

Killermite

07-13-2009, 06:33 AM

kabatta

07-13-2009, 06:39 AM

Thief is intended as a single player first person sneaker. Period. No coop, no multiplayer. Garrett stays too.

Platinumoxicity

07-13-2009, 06:42 AM

I'm sorry to post this but what if Garret is no longer the main character, because that girl at the end of Deadly Shadows might be the new person.

Can you think of any other continuity for the story?

Play all three games all the way through, memorize everything important, make a thorough analysis of everything you see and think again.

It's shouldn't be that obvious in my opinion.

Hamadriyad

07-13-2009, 06:59 AM

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88489

ToMegaTherion

07-13-2009, 07:10 AM

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88489

That's going to be confusing when this one gets merged into that thread!

thebishopdonjuan

07-13-2009, 07:12 AM

Thief is intended as a single player first person sneaker. Period. No coop, no multiplayer. Garrett stays too.

With todays technology whats to say thats not viable anymore, All in all i want the same thing first person sneaker but why not add to the game, instead of making it the same such as thief 2 people are in development of makeing it a MULTIPLAYER so your opinion really doesnt make any sense the people want a good story line and miltiplayer!!!!

I am not saying by any means take away the good story line, just add a multiplayer along with the campaign

kabatta

07-13-2009, 07:32 AM

I for one don't like to play with other people thief. Garrett is a loner, he does not team with other thiefs. Multiplayer only on other characters is the answer.
And dude...use a punctuation mark or two. Don't shouth like you're in the woods. I can take a point withouth somebody shouting it.

Necros

07-13-2009, 08:21 AM

I'm sorry to post this but what if Garret is no longer the main character, because that girl at the end of Deadly Shadows might be the new person. Or maybe the game will be multiplayer and she will be the multiplayer or coop person.
Garrett will most probably be the main character (I'd say 95%) and hopefully Stephen Russell will return too. And I seriously doubt we'll se MP or co-op, and that's good. :)
people are in development of makeing it a MULTIPLAYER so your opinion really doesnt make any sense the people want a good story line and miltiplayer!!!!
Nope, most Thief fans don't want MP or co-op in the game. ;)

VIKTORIA

07-13-2009, 11:22 AM

That's going to be confusing when this one gets merged into that thread!

Done. :naughty:

esme

07-14-2009, 03:26 AM

if multiplayer can be added without harming single player playing or adding a couple of years to the development then by all means throw it in the mix, alternatively if the engine already supports multiplayer then leave the programming hooks in place to make it easy for FM authors to create multiplayer missions

but as far as I'm concerned the T4 mission maps should be optimised for single player, first person stealth play

the big problem I see with multiplayer is everyone wanting to be Garrett

Rarefied Brains

08-01-2009, 12:29 PM

I think Garrett is a keeper.

(see what I did there ;):whistle::thumb:)

jtr7

08-01-2009, 05:54 PM

Yes! Let us keep Garrett, or the task of creating a new protagonist we really like as much as Garrett is monumental. Maybe the new proto could be called "Palmer" like Garrett used to be.

Watcheratthegatesofdusk

08-03-2009, 09:03 AM

As I have pointed out earlier you can have two main characters in the game, Garrett and his Apprentice.
Old G is arguably not the same guy as before, even though it seems his fate always has been tied to upholding the balance, by the end of T3 the character has in a away come full circle and now seem to have higher potential as an more Artemus-like mentor. . Its not that strange since most ageing masters want to leave a legacy, especially if they find their task of importance (I imagine being a true keeper might be one of the most important positions imaginable). Anyway, re-using characters by keeping them as they were and hitting the reset-button rarely results in anything good.

Reyn

08-03-2009, 09:24 AM

It's not Thief without playing as Garrett, and he should stay as the loner he is. So lets just ignore the girl from T3.... please. :)

That's exactly it. Not only is it "Garrett's Game/Story", it's his style not to have anyone else in his ...well, I would say "light", but you know what I mean...

And all of us have slipped into his skin. We've shared his sardonic humor and anti-authoritarian views. No little girl (no matter how such an unlikely coupling would tickle a Disney exec's fancy) or anyone else is invited, so to speak.

Don't forget the Kafkaesque style of Garrett's existence. There really IS no one else...

jtr7

08-03-2009, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by Ken Levine

"When I did the original plot for Thief, I tried to make Garrett (or Palmer, as he was originally known) a guy with no ideology except himself."

gryphos

08-03-2009, 10:54 AM

I'm really not sure how Kafkaesque Garrett's existance is... he is markedly not the helpless hopeless victim of the bureacracy or temporal powers of his steampunk world, and the metamorphosis he's undergone is not a bad one. Just a thought...

As for the girl... to assume that the only possibilities are that she becomes his cute moppet sidekick, or his jedi padawan, or his sarcastic she-Garrett clone replacement are all obviously not the right way to go... but to write her off entirely is likewise a sloppy hamfisted piece of literary nonsense. She is introduced in a very deliberate way to the story. Very little in Garrett's existance is trivial, so I would argue that neither is she. I've mentioned it elsewhere, but I think it bears repeating that there are other ways to more appropriately consider her as a character in Garrett's life. I'd say that one possibility is a rather more ****ensian approach with her as the Dodger to his ***in, though I don't see this as the best way, considering that Garrett does have more of those bothersome principles (proven by his actions) than his thorny exterior belies. I don't think he's quite a shoe in for ***in. I think a better example of a viable relationship from his standpoint would be like Leon in Luc Besson's The Professional. One of the most interesting examples of a principled criminal. I would not want to see the girl develop the infatuation that Portman's character did... I would say, that, unless the story takes place at least a decade later, then she is only viable as a supporting character, possibly as a plot mover in a mission or two. But she certainly need not be any less interesting than Garrett was as a youth.

Regarding the idea that only Garrett could ever be interesting in this setting... hogwash. Part of the charm of Thief, is that it has a very robust setting, with great depths of story and story potential entirely separate from Garrett's actions. But, then you have a character that is just as robust as the world he inhabits, and who dances equally adeptly with the dance of that world. It would certainly be a challenge to come up with a character as compelling as Garrett... but far from impossible. Garrett's particular sardonic wit is not what makes him a great character in a heist story. To try to shoehorn his personality into another body is the sort of poor imagination that breeds bad Star Wars knockoffs. The question should not be "how can we get someone like Garrett into a new game?" It should be "given this setting, and the needs of a heist story genre, what kind of person and what circumstances would motivate them to strive to overcome their steampunk world?"

That said, I disagree with the notion that there need be no character progression, nor exists none in Garrett. Furthermore, I disagree with the notion that he's played out as a character in this setting. I would argue that he has come to a major character change both in embracing his identity as the One True Keeper (whatever that means to him... but he's not just the same old rogue who started out with no ideology except himself; he's made choices that went outside his own skin, even if he is still far from a white rose!), and embracing the opportunity of introducing someone into the illuminati reality of the world he dances with (in even bothering to address the girl in the very way that he was introduced to the hidden reality). He has undergone some character progression, and his world is different, so now, what does this new picture look like? Just as the Metal Age was a different picture, what is the Unwritten Time going to look like, and how is this very different Garrett going to inhabit it? Or, possibly, how is "Palmer" or whoever going to inhabit it?

jtr7

08-03-2009, 11:01 AM

It can go many ways. In the end, we just want a winning formula that a majority can agree on.

geler7

08-06-2009, 03:15 AM

I have a pretty interesting idea... In the first half of the game, you do the missions with Garrett, but 2 missions as the girl that is trained by Garrett, and in the second half i have 2 ideas...
no.1: You are the girl that has finished her training and that is now The Thief
no.2 : You choose at the half of the game if you continue as Garrett or as The Girl.

And the girl has to have a name, you know.

geler7

08-06-2009, 03:27 AM

So, what say you, Garrett fans?

jtr7

08-06-2009, 03:30 AM

Well, you can see that there are those of us who never want to see Garrett training the girl, being replaced by the girl, feeding and clothing and sheltering the girl, and never seeing the girl except as an informant or message runner, but never a character of significance beyond any supporting character that ever was.

And others agree she should become a player character or sidekick. I'm really just hoping you won't post again before people can really read your post first. :p

kabatta

08-06-2009, 04:14 AM

The girl should stay to Garrett like Sherlock Holme's mini troop of children spies. The girl doesn't die of starvation, we have information and Garrett. :D

i will eventually get hanged for my atrocious crimes against proper grammar.

the_steved

08-06-2009, 04:56 AM

Garrett should train the girl and she eventually becomes a bad thief just like he was but even worse. She could try to revive constantine or vicktoria for evil purposes or something like that and Garrett has to foil her plan before it's too late.

jtr7

08-06-2009, 04:57 AM

HAHAHAHAHAH! YAAAARGH! HAHAHAHA!

:p

goldsla

08-06-2009, 05:32 AM

Almost everyone in this thread assumes that T4 has to be set after T3. Why? It could be set between T1 and T2, or between T2 and T3. Just because it is being developed after T3 doesn't mean the story has to be after T3. And if it is set before, then a lot of issues with plot go away! You would still need an arch villian to foil, and you would need to have Garrett ambivalant, at first, about taking the villian on. But in the end he has to do something because he is the only one who can ... In any event, you could do anything you want--if you free yourself of setting T4 after T3.

jtr7

08-06-2009, 05:43 AM

Kold

08-06-2009, 05:00 PM

+1 for Garrett being the main character

Fatherwoodsie

08-06-2009, 10:16 PM

+2 garrett

Yaphy

08-07-2009, 01:05 PM

That girl could be the villain if the villain is another thief as some people want (not me).

jtr7

08-07-2009, 01:30 PM

She's got powers or she's older and Garrett's too old?

The Mental Age

08-07-2009, 02:07 PM

I think Garrett is a keeper.

(see what I did there ;):whistle::thumb:)

:lol:

:mad2:

Ahaha. You're so witty.

But I agree.

darkmagicasorseer

08-09-2009, 07:15 AM

if Garrett is not going to be the main character, then the game should have a customizable player character from gender selection to their eye color and the background. Hence a story base role playing where the character progress from a simple citizen, trader, or noblemen, into the next to the legendary master thief.

How about that?

darkmagicasorseer

08-09-2009, 07:20 AM

jtr7

08-09-2009, 07:27 AM

Lotsa fantasies ruined by reality.

There's a discussion thread about customizing the player character's appearance:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=269

cofiking

08-10-2009, 01:56 AM

I don't think so the girl can do just fine, it will be a refreshing change as much as I love Garretts cool character it wouldn't be a crime to start something new.

jtr7

08-10-2009, 02:13 AM

The new character has to be at least as well designed and voiced, or it's a bad move. This isn't against good change, it's against bad change. Garrett is a winner. An unknown is an unknown. If Garrett is training or raising that girl it's another bad move and compromise of who he is. We have a right to be skeptical because there are too many reasons to distrust a completely different group of people to match or improve upon what LGS did. It's not irrational or unreasonable or unfair.

Vae

08-10-2009, 03:28 AM

We have a right to be skeptical because there are too many reasons to distrust a completely different group of people to match or improve upon what LGS did.

This is something that has been gnawing at the back of my mind for some time, and has me worried. I've been quiet about it and try not to think about it in order to remain optimistic. It will be that way at least until we are out of the first limbo phase...until we can see something to make some kind of assessment (this will be a good or bad day). Even TDS had part of the Looking Glass team involved, but now who knows how many, if any, of the original members will be there. How many new members actually understand the depth and subtlety of the Thief Universe?... and even if they do, will they be able to create the artistic magic that is cherished my so many?... Perhaps they may not be even allowed to try if the sanctity of Thief is thrown into the sea of homogeny and thus lessened and defiled of its former beauty and grace. :(

tarhiel

08-10-2009, 03:30 AM

I did a lot of thinking about this topic, and as I stated elswhere: Garret should definitely be main hero. Girl might (!) play important role (which role, and if she dies or not, I will leave entirely on you, developers :) ).

But to be honest, I was always suprised, that Garret didn´t get some money to that girl, or send her away. It is like enldess circle, since she is like mirror image of him from TDP, and he tells the lines of Artemus from first video of TDP. Honestly, he should just let her go.
But since she is here, he might get emotionally attached to her, like to daughter (because everybody else he cared about (Victoria, Artemus) is dead. So ,definitely Garret as main character.

Vae

08-10-2009, 03:56 AM

Garrett is a fundamental part of Thief. Garrett is a huge asset to the Thief brand. It would be a colossal mistake and an error in judgment on every level of business to eliminate him. Garrett is the rare, legendary character that few could ever hope to conceive of, and his value transcends that of any other character ever created in the history of electronic gaming.

Platinumoxicity

08-10-2009, 04:52 AM

Thief does not equal Garrett. The relation of Garrett and Thief is the same as the relation of GTA and the police. And don't you agree that it wouldn't hurt a GTA game too much if they removed the cops? :rolleyes:

Vae

08-10-2009, 05:02 AM

Exactly...:rolleyes:.......:lol:..........:nut:... ....:lmao:

Telex

08-10-2009, 09:50 AM

It's got to be Garrett. I mean the game itself is great, but what really sold the experience for me was Garrett and the City. Take away either one, and it's not to say you couldn't have a good game, but it wouldn't be Thief. Call it something different if Garrett isn't present or if they follow through with setting it in present-day (which I heard was the plan a couple of years ago. I hope to god not - I can just play Hitman or Splinter Cell when I want a modern day sneaker)

Also I agree with posters who have said that the girl doesn't actually need to be present in T4. For me that whole sequence was just symbolic of Garrett coming full circle in terms of how he himself began his keeper training. It doesn't mean that the girl herself has any kind of significance. I mean, she tried to pickpocket Garrett and now we all seem to think she deserves to be the main protagonist? I rather hope not.

ToMegaTherion

08-10-2009, 12:35 PM

Calling it something other than Thief if Garrett is not the hero would be a rather foolish idea. By extension it is rather foolish to make such a demand.

Telex

08-10-2009, 02:51 PM

Calling it something other than Thief if Garrett is not the hero would be a rather foolish idea. By extension it is rather foolish to make such a demand.

It wasn't a demand as I don't anticipate it happening. What I fear is that Thief 4 will become the equivalent of Silent Hill 4, which abandoned many of the core precepts of the first three while adding nothing (owing to the fact that it was not intended to be a Silent Hill game initially)

If the game isn't going to be set in the City during the correct time period, it isn't going to be Thief. Not to say it won't be good, it could even be great. But it won't be Thief. While mislead people by calling a game something it isn't? Silent Hill did it, and it marked a steady and continuing decline for the series. I'd rather see a healthy new stealth series than have T4 be the nail in the coffin for Thief.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ

08-10-2009, 03:03 PM

I'd like a co-op environment where you could get to play as the girl out of the end of the third game. I'll still buy the game anyway because it's Thief.

It wasn't a demand as I don't anticipate it happening. What I fear is that Thief 4 will become the equivalent of Silent Hill 4, which abandoned many of the core precepts of the first three while adding nothing (owing to the fact that it was not intended to be a Silent Hill game initially)

If the game isn't going to be set in the City during the correct time period, it isn't going to be Thief. Not to say it won't be good, it could even be great. But it won't be Thief. While mislead people by calling a game something it isn't? Silent Hill did it, and it marked a steady and continuing decline for the series. I'd rather see a healthy new stealth series than have T4 be the nail in the coffin for Thief.

I agree they need to make the game identical to the first Thief. That'll keep us fanbois happy. :lol:

jtr7

08-10-2009, 03:06 PM

Comments like yours have not one thing to do with TDS appreciation.

Vae

08-10-2009, 03:28 PM

I agree they need to make the game identical to the first Thief. That'll keep us fanbois happy. :lol:

Why are you stuck on some kind of moronic loop about "most of us want T4 to be identical to T1". No one is saying that. In a game series, you take what works in the original titles and as the series progresses you add new things that work well with the original design of the game. I think your having trouble understanding what "core design principals" are. If you don't preserve these then a game loses its essence and becomes another game or series.

ToMegaTherion

08-11-2009, 12:21 AM

I would say that as long as the games it is most like are Thief 1, Thief 2, and Thief 3, then Thief 4 should be called Thief. The further it gets from these games, the more responsibility the publishers have to make the differences clear.

If a publisher releases a game in the X series that is closer to series Y than series X then they are being highly unprofessional. If they release a game in the X series that is closer to other X games than it is to any other game, but is still quite different, and they don't make these differences clear, then they are unprofessional. If they release a game in the X series that is closer to other X games than it is to any other game, but is still quite different, but they make the differences clear, then someone buys it without looking at anything other than the title, then that buyer deserves all they get.

Nefarian

08-11-2009, 07:05 AM

Multiple role might be little bit difficult, since Thief series has only 1 notable protagonist. Unlike Legacy Of Kain series, 2 protagonist are there so multiple role is possible.

jtr7

08-11-2009, 07:11 AM

IT would require different kind of storytelling, impersonal, or double the storytelling.

Ode to a Grasshopper

08-19-2009, 07:55 PM

I have to vote for the Apprentice.

Garrett is the one true keeper now. With all those glyph powers, all the challenge would be taken out of playing him. What's the point of a stealth game if the protagonist can turn himself invisible at will?

So here are the options as I see it.

1. The player plays the Apprentice. Garrett is her mentor and is HEAVILY involved. He gives almost all the mission briefings and we hear a LOT of dialogue from Stephen Russell. Perhaps he even tags along on a few missions or comments remotely via glyph magic or steampunk walky talky. Additionally, we need to have a well-cast voice for the apprentice. She has to have as defined a personality as Garrett does.

It'd sort of be like how Jack Sparrow was only meant to be a 'mentor' character in Pirates of the Caribbean with Will Turner as the main character, but is the star of the show even if the story isn't primarily about him.
So one more for this (Terri Brosius for the girl?), frequent (and typically scathing) commentary from Garrett via Glyph magic, perhaps with the girl being killed/captured and Garrett being the PC for the last, or alternately first, few missions, or character swaps partway through levels. DS was my least favourite game of the three but it wasn't bad, just not as good, and is part of the canon which provided decent closure to the Garrett story arc. A bit of character conflict between the 2 of them could work well too, i.e. the girl refuses to heed some advice for caution ("I don't have to do what you say! You're not my father!") and lands in hot water. I'm thinking the spurned illegitmate child of some high-born nobility, who could then be the main antagonist?
Stephen Russell is a must-have no matter what though, if only for Officer Benny...

And please, keep it steampunk/medieval/cusp of the Industrial Revolution.

Ode to a Grasshopper

08-19-2009, 10:15 PM

Right, this the-world-is-as-it-should-be-not-as-it-is BS is ticking me off. If that was the way things worked there wouldn't be people or characters like Garrett in the first place and the City is nothing if not gritty, corrupt and dare I say realsitic in that regard, sooo...
And for the record, no way in hell Garrett would take an apprentice. Nope. Sorry. Not gonna happen.Except that it's very strongly implied that he does, at...The very end of TDS was a storytelling gimmick called "full circle". It doesn't necessarily have any relevance to the actual plot, it's outside it. The devs used it to make a nice, poetic end to the series. Observing this, you can see that the moment where Garrett refers to himself as a "keeper" is inside this storytelling gimmick, so it doesn't hold that much relevance to the actual end cutscene before, where Gamall's plans are ruined....the entirely canonical end of the story of the (so-far) Thief trilogy. The story of Garrett has come 'full circle', meaning that without some really, really clever storytelling even by Thief standards his potential as an active protagonist is pretty much done, in a similar way that if there's ever a Star Wars Episode VII Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker probably won't be a major part of it. By all means feel free to hate DS even more for bringing the storyline to a close, but you can't really say it didn't happen when it officially did.
That said, he can still play a mentor/overseer/commenting-voice-in-the-head easily and well, which gives us all our Stephen Russell-as-Garrett fix without necessarily cheapening a hitherto-great character - which is exactly why if it's a sequel/narrative continuation I don't want him to be the protagonist next time around. There is precendent of sorts, despite being a loner Garrett allied with Viktoria, his former nemesis, because it was in his interests to do so, and as evidenced by his emotional reaction to her death (that "Karras" line wasn't exactly dispassionate) has been shown to develop emotional ties to others, albeit rarely and reluctantly. The cutscenes where he bickers/confers with Viktoria in MA show that Russell is more than talented enough to pull off mission briefings with other VAs/characters, so another character wouldn't detract from his performance. A Thief-y in-continuity female protege as main character wouldn't be a bad option, especially a gothy pretty thief chick provided she wasn't just there for T&A, and as the kid was a street urchin too she'd likely be jaded and cynical as well.

jtr7

08-19-2009, 10:33 PM

No apprenticeship was implied. In fact, he doesn't recruit her at all. It's fans' wishes and a break of his character. Nothing he went through has any connection to that kind of character arc. There's no sign of him using Keeper tricks, no sign of him using Glyphs, and he was standing with light on his face in the middle of the street.

Taffer82

08-20-2009, 12:44 AM

cofiking

08-21-2009, 01:54 AM

NO IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE GARRETT! trust me its ok to bring something new and refreshing to a great game, it would be a bold move but a great one if you ask me. I would honestly love to see that girl in action! learning from Garrett like he did from the keepers and then going into the night for shopping ;)..It just doesn't add up to the story bringing Garrett to Thief 4 he wanted to retire at the very beginning of the series anyway, but then he was in thief 2 and thief 3! he even returned the stolen artifacts at the end od DS which shows he had enough, he is done and that's the way it should be... its time to leave the hero at peace and bring out a new charecter to carry on the role of a master thief!

PlumsieTaker

08-21-2009, 05:19 AM

How about Artemus (a prequel)?

Probably been suggested, but I'll just revisit this in the hopes of steering the thread a little. There's a lot more story left for Garrett, but the trilogy wraps up very nicely in TDS. Considering his attitudes and abilities in the trilogy, Artemus's backstory could plausibly be similar to Garrett's, but not so much that the established elements suffocate design.

Or, you play as both Artemus in the past and Garrett in the future.

A prequel could be possible - Look what they're doing with DX3, they could have had the same idea for Thief.

Or they could totally blow our minds... Garrett had a son/daughter... with Basso's sister that he doesn't know about. But I was just forced to sit through 30mins of watching an evening soap opera, I think my mind is now corrupted beyond belief.

Secondary

08-24-2009, 10:54 AM

If Garret is not the main character, Im not playing it and im sure as hell not buying it. Garret is my favorite game protagonist ever. period.

ToMegaTherion

08-25-2009, 12:39 AM

Your love for Garrett is so great that passion has prevented you from spelling his name right.

I'd be willing to bet that you would play it anyway, if it sounded good enough.

Lost Taffer

08-31-2009, 11:02 AM

My fellow taffers, I submit to you that the answer is... no. Do I want Garrett to return? Of course!:D But is Garrett (voiced by the most excellent Stephen Russell) the MAIN reason why I love and play the Thief series? Hardly. Don't get me wrong, I love Garrett, his anti-hero-too-cool-for-school attitude, sly voice and overall bad-assness. However, I argue that Garrett's story has been told. He left the Keepers, had 3 games worth of adventures each having a main villian from the Thief factions (Pagan/Hammer/Keeper) and eventually returned to the Keepers. Garrett has come full circle. A chararcter, no matter how beloved, can become so over used and tired that even fans grow weary of them.
Now before you start hating on me let me say this... IF the Thief 4 dev's can come up with an engaging, credible story that fully explains why Garrett returns to thieving and once again has to save the day, then I'm all for it. Set off fireworks, Garrett's back!
On the other hand, let's keep an open mind and not be afraid of change. I'm only suggesting that the Thief mthos MAY be better served by a new protagonist. Once again, it comes back the dev's delivering the right storyline.
All I'm saying is, it doen't HAVE to be Garrett. If you can't do him justice, then don't use him at all.

Yaphy

08-31-2009, 11:39 AM

kabatta

08-31-2009, 11:41 AM

Garrett can go only, and only if he is replaced by a clone of himself with no mentioning or plot altering details.

Lozza86-UK

08-31-2009, 11:56 AM

I hope Garrett returns as the main character. He doesn't have to return for Thief IV to live up to the originals but I really really really really hope he does. And don't give him any magic powers. The glyph on his hand is just a symbol, nothing more in my opinion.

If he doesn't though, please Eidos, don't make him a mentor type character. That would be so corny and cliched. If he isn't the main character I'd rather he wasn't in it at all.

Hamadriyad

08-31-2009, 12:19 PM

I jsut dont get who this new character would be? I surely dont want the girl, because she should of corse look like a thief version of Lara Croft and would be called "Shadow Raider" or something like that. Another young guy couldnt possibly be as badass as Garrett is. It would only look like a bad copy of Garrett.
Sure a new protagonist would be good as long as it is Garrett. :p

She MAY. Don't be sure.
If they give us a another protagonist(a guy), he should be different. He should have different personality.
But I want Garrett for Thief IV. If they make Thief V, VI etc.(hopefully they don't)then definitely I don't want Garrett. His story should have an end.

Yaphy

08-31-2009, 12:19 PM

If he isnt in it I only want people talk rumors about him.

Hamadriyad

08-31-2009, 12:37 PM

Agreed. Rumors already exist in TDS. But they should be more.

Secondary

08-31-2009, 02:28 PM

Hopeless

08-31-2009, 02:41 PM

If and only if they can make it work, then yes, someone other than Garrett could work. However, Garrett would definitely work too.

minus0ne

08-31-2009, 04:25 PM

to me, Garret makes the Thief universe...well, Garret and the City. thsoe two things are essential in my mind, remove either one and what you have isnt really Thief to me, its a spinoff game (which isnt totally bad, its just not Thief)
Agreed, Garrett is the lens through which you perceive the The City.

Who would you replace him with and why?

@Yaphy; it's not that a female protagonist wouldn't work because she was female - there have been lots of likeable and interesting female videogame protagonists before - it's just that Garrett is a fundamental part of Thief.

jtr7

08-31-2009, 05:04 PM

It would be odd if they had a new character that had the same quiet, charming cynicism and caustic wit. It would be odd if the character was more talkative, happy, emotional, or a collection of traits kind of the opposite of Garrett. I would like to see a character that doesn't have a grating voice, and is written and performed to make me grow fond and not embarrassed for EM.

Davehall380

09-01-2009, 07:00 AM

IMO the city is what makes Thief. I would obviously like to play Garrett in Thief 4, but I wouldnt be upset if he was replaced. A new character would need to be implemented in the right way, with his/her own personality and traits.

thief3and4

09-02-2009, 11:42 AM

any way for playing multiple roles? And u can choose em at mission briefing. That way couldn't harm any Garret fan...
that's what i want too. but it would be a good thing to be able to replay missions(i'm a garrett fan too but i really would like a new character). i would like a female character because after playing TDS over and over AND OVER i'm getting a little sick of Garrett(not that i don't like him, it's only that i played too long with him). I, and i think that other people too, would like to be able to choose between characters. I think that choosing in the beginning of every mission would be a little too much, but you should choose when you start a new game your character.

jtr7

09-02-2009, 03:48 PM

... That way couldn't harm any Garret fan...

Incorrect. More work for an unnecessary gimmick and all the other aspects needed to tie into it. All the new models, voice-acting, story, etc., all harms the Garrett experience. More is usually not better. One of Thief's strengths is maximum impact with less.

minus0ne

09-02-2009, 07:17 PM

that's what i want too. but it would be a good thing to be able to replay missions(i'm a garrett fan too but i really would like a new character). i would like a female character because after playing TDS over and over AND OVER i'm getting a little sick of Garrett(not that i don't like him, it's only that i played too long with him). I, and i think that other people too, would like to be able to choose between characters. I think that choosing in the beginning of every mission would be a little too much, but you should choose when you start a new game your character.
If you're getting bored with TDS why not give Thief Gold and The Metal Age a try? You might learn to appreciate Garrett a little more ;)

Davehall380

09-03-2009, 03:32 AM

If you're getting bored with TDS why not give Thief Gold and The Metal Age a try? You might learn to appreciate Garrett a little more ;)

Meow :D

ToMegaTherion

09-03-2009, 03:37 AM

For some reason I find female voices in video games are often way more annoying than male ones, so if it's a lady, I really hope they find a voice that doesn't make me want to punch things.

esme

09-03-2009, 04:11 AM

one of the female guards in TMA always reminds me of Ellen Degeneres with the distracted way she says things ..."something ...probably nothing"

de igne ligneisque

09-03-2009, 06:03 AM

I would obviously like to play Garrett in Thief 4, but I wouldnt be upset if he was replaced. A new character would need to be implemented in the right way, with his/her own personality and traits.

Exactly.
The main thing is that the new game should be good. Garrett is not ABSOLUTELY essential for a good game. Though many fans appear to be hard pressed to even imagine a Garrett free thief game, it could be done. It would just be tricky. The new protagonist would need to be different from everyone's beloved Garrett (what would be the point in introducing a new protagonist who's similar to Garrett when you can just have the original himself?) but still compelling. It's not an easy feat. The options are:

1: stick to the relatively safe and have Garrett as the main protagonist, because he works and people love him. At best Garrett is consistent with previous games and the fans accept that he is characterized appropriately, at worst he acts out of character and fans are angry and boycott the game.

OR

2: get creative and risk something new. At worst fans do not like that character and boycott the game out of stubbornness. At best, in spite of their love and devotion to Garrett, the fans find a new, engaging and fun character with which to plunder shiny, shiny things. The main issue, however, is hardly the main character (Really, the main character has always been the gamer sitting at the mouse/controller; Garrett has just been our Link into the game thus far). If the game is really good, gets the great reviews that we all know it should be capable of (if done right), then even staunch pro-Garrett supporters would have to take note and give the game a whirl.

The key is good game play, and a good story in the Thief world.

Good game play means sneaking. Multiplayer play, 3rd person viewpoint and gory killing are purely optional and should not be the focus of the game or forced on the player.

A good story means it has to flow logically/coherently/cohesively from the first three games. (I'm sure many would like to forget the last game - which I still rather enjoyed, despite some minor irritants, though there's always something in every game that gets to me, even just a little - but that would be a mistake; it would be risky to alienate the new fans that way.) The first games give plenty to work with plotwise for the next game. There's the pendulum swinging between plant and metal. Game one saw the Woodsie lord and co. gain, and lose power, putting the entire world in danger of a new Woodsie order. Game two saw the Mechanist Hammerite-offshoot gain power and try to institute a new order, in the city at least. So there's always political power plays to incorporate in Thief games. The third game was an introspective aside focusing on the Keepers themselves. The stakes were smaller again (not the world in danger, not the entire city in immediate peril, just a magical serial killer pathetically trying to live a bit longer). Ideally the fourth game should in some way deal with the power vacuum created by the exposure of the Keepers and Garrett's unwanted position as Keeper messiah/unwilling leader. It should adapt the theme of balancing wood and metal "opposites" (badly, I may add, as Garrett always seems to make things worse before making them better) in light of the fact that the state of the Keepers is now unsure. (If things got so out of hand when the Keepers were in control in games one and two, it should really hit the fan in game four.)

So back to the "should Garrett be in the game?" question. It depends entirely on the story devised for the game. To me, it makes sense that Garrett would like to relinquish his power. Does he just walk away from the keepers again, perhaps after a half-hearted attempt to stick it out? Does he struggle to pawn his power off on someone else, possibly someone he still trusts inside the Keeper organization? Does he decide to dismantle the Keepers completely, in a belief that their time is up and that there are, in fact, way too many power hungry factions attempting to control the fate of the city (i.e. Hammerites, Woodsie followers, various cliques of noblemen, possibly mages, and maybe even Mechanist remnants)? Do all the Keepers support Garrett? (I'm thinking some wouldn't fully understand his role in everything and may in fact blame him for various setbacks) Is there a Keeper coup? Do some try to enlist help from another faction, only to have them take over?...
Anyway, that got a bit off topic. My point was supposed to be that, depending on which direction the game takes, Garrett could be the protagonist, himself going into different buildings to steal whatever-a-ma-jiggs, or he may reluctantly send someone he thinks is loyal to him to do his reluctant bidding (while he's forced to attend Keeper meetings in order to maintain appearances that he's not secretly attempting...whatever it is he'd be trying to do), whilst various nefarious goings-on transpire in the background. Or he could just walk away and let it all rot.
But, a new protagonist CAN be good, as long as the reasons for having him/her make sense. For instance, who would suspect Garrett, a well known loner, to be acting via an intermediary? (That is, of course, a rhetorical question. The answer is: no one. And because Garrett's enemies would never expect it, it becomes a viable option, should the developers choose that route).

It all just depends on the story. (Well, that and the game play).

Davehall380

09-03-2009, 07:40 AM

That was the most informed and structured ive seen for a long time!

I totally agree. The story in the past games has evolved more around the various factions interacting within the enviroment (macro or micro city), in various different and progressive contexts. Garrett was the players way of interacting with these conflicts, and though the story involved Garrett, it could easily evolve around another character. It does need to be implemented well though, and the pitfalls and numerous. The consequences of getting this wrong are obvious - yet after TDS, EM have alot of room to improve on the previous offering.

kin

09-03-2009, 08:05 AM

Exactly.
The main thing is that the new game should be good. Garrett is not ABSOLUTELY essential for a good game. Though many fans appear to be hard pressed to even imagine a Garrett free thief game, it could be done. It would just be tricky. The new protagonist would need to be different from everyone's beloved Garrett (what would be the point in introducing a new protagonist who's similar to Garrett when you can just have the original himself?) but still compelling. It's not an easy feat. The options are:
1: stick to the relatively safe and have Garrett as the main protagonist, because he works and people love him. At best Garrett is consistent with previous games and the fans accept that he is characterized appropriately, at worst he acts out of character and fans are angry and boycott the game.

OR

2: get creative and risk something new. At worst fans do not like that character and boycott the game out of stubbornness. At best, in spite of their love and devotion to Garrett, the fans find a new, engaging and fun character with which to plunder shiny, shiny things. The main issue, however, is hardly the main character (Really, the main character has always been the gamer sitting at the mouse/controller; Garrett has just been our Link into the game thus far). If the game is really good, gets the great reviews that we all know it should be capable of (if done right), then even staunch pro-Garrett supporters would have to take note and give the game a whirl.

The key is good game play, and a good story in the Thief world.

Good game play means sneaking. Multiplayer play, 3rd person viewpoint and gory killing are purely optional and should not be the focus of the game or forced on the player.

A good story means it has to flow logically/coherently/cohesively from the first three games. (I'm sure many would like to forget the last game - which I still rather enjoyed, despite some minor irritants, though there's always something in every game that gets to me, even just a little - but that would be a mistake; it would be risky to alienate the new fans that way.) The first games give plenty to work with plotwise for the next game. There's the pendulum swinging between plant and metal. Game one saw the woodsie lord and co. gain, and lose power, putting the entire world in danger of a new woodsie order. Game two saw the mechanist Hammerite-offshoot gain power and try to institute a new order, in the city at least. So there's always political power plays to incorporate in thief games. The third game was an introspective aside focusing on the keepers themselves. The stakes were smaller again (not the world in danger, not the entire city in immediate peril, just a magical serial killer pathetically trying to live a bit longer). Ideally the fourth game should in some way deal with the power vacuum created by the exposure of the keepers and Garrett's unwanted position as Keeper messiah/unwilling leader. It should adapt the theme of balancing wood and metal "opposites" (badly, I may add, as Garrett always seems to make things worse before making them better) in light of the fact that the state of the keepers is now unsure. (If things got so out of hand when the keepers were in control in games one and two, it should really hit the fan in game four.)

So back to the "should Garrett be in the game?" question. It depends entirely on the story devised for the game. To me, it makes sense that Garrett would like to relinquish his power. Does he just walk away from the keepers again, perhaps after a half-hearted attempt to stick it out? Does he struggle to pawn his power off on someone else, possibly someone he still trusts inside the Keeper organization? Does he decide to dismantle the keepers completely, in a belief that their time is up and that there are, in fact, way too many power hungry factions attempting to control the fate of the city (i.e. Hammerites, woodsie followers, various cliques of noblemen, possibly mages, and maybe even mechanist remnants)? Do all the keepers support Garrett? (I'm thinking some wouldn't fully understand his role in everything and may in fact blame him for various setbacks) Is there a keeper coup? Do some try to enlist help from another faction, only to have them take over?...
Anyway, that got a bit off topic. My point was supposed to be that, depending on which direction the game takes, Garrett could be the protagonist, himself going into different buildings to steal whatever-a-ma-jiggs, or he may reluctantly send someone he thinks is loyal to him to do his reluctant bidding (while he's forced to attend keeper meetings in order to maintain appearances that he's not secretly attempting whatever it is he'd be trying to do), whilst various nefarious goings-on transpire in the background. Or he could just walk away and let it all rot.
But, a new protagonist CAN be good, as long as the reasons for having him/her make sense. For instance, who would suspect Garrett, a well known loner, to be acting via an intermediary? (That is, of course, a rhetorical question. The answer is: no one. And because Garrett's enemies would never expect it, it becomes a viable option, should the developers choose that root).

It all just depends on the story. (Well, that and the game play).

Great first post. I could say this words could come from a devs mouth.

Garrett could be the protagonist, himself going into different buildings to steal whatever-a-ma-jiggs, or he may reluctantly send someone he thinks is loyal to him to do his reluctant bidding
This could satisfy both sides.

Platinumoxicity

09-03-2009, 08:57 AM

Thief 1, Thief 2 and TDS were all about the keepers trying to keep the world from falling apart, because they could predict future events. Garrett was their way of moving things in the world, but there was one thing that they could never prevent, their own removal. Thief 4 should have Garrett, I'm not satisfied until I get the full story of what Garrett has become now when his duties as the true keeper have been finished and the future is not pre-written. The story of Garrett that started in Thief 1 isn't over yet. The story of the keepers and their prophecies, on the other hand, is.

jtr7

09-03-2009, 05:12 PM

Assuming Garrett has any power other than title and history and perception of him from it, he wouldn't want to give it up if it meant the Keepers and Prophecies didn't hound him anymore. He's already walked away from the Keepers, he destroyed them from the inside out like he's done to every powerful leader, group, and faction that threatens his life. What Keeper meetings? I suppose the comments show a preference for Garrett as a leader of a new order? Without Glyphs? Exposed for all to see? No instruction manuals, no means to determine their next moves?
Loyalty to Garrett? Doing his "bidding"?? What? Wrong character, wrong game.
Gamall didn't just want immortality, but to destroy the failsafe, expose Keeper secrets, and share the secret of immortality with the others (would that require more skinning of people)?

Secondary

09-03-2009, 05:23 PM

i second that. if Garret is removed from the role of protagonist (and i pray hes not), i definitely dont want him to end up as an authority figure, or the founder of some silly theives guild straight out of a b movie script. like Jtr7 said, wrong character.

all of this debating just points back to one thing though, the best move EM can make is to keep Garret as the player character. nobody will be dissapointed, and he already has such history and character that making a plot will be much easier than wiping the boards and making a new one.

if Garret does anything other than remain a Thief, he risks being pulled down a path which would make him into something not unlike the people he has overcome in the past. a [power mongerer like Gamall, or a disillusioned murderer, like Karras.

kin

09-03-2009, 11:38 PM

The most logical choice for EM would be to choose the classic character Garrett for the new game. It is a safe decision because a game without him could make some people even not buying it but if he is the protagonist everyone that likes thief moderately or not would buy the game. For most players Garrett is 40% of the game.

Platinumoxicity

09-04-2009, 02:56 AM

TDS ended in a cliffhanger... No epilogue that explained what happened to the City with the keepers gone, much like in Mirror's Edge, where there wasn't an epilogue that showed what happened when The city-wide surveillance was shut down

Things will get bad in the City. There isn't a secret agency to prevent disasters before they happen. Garrett got his wish. He's finally alone just like he wanted, just like he was all the way until the keepers showed up to rescue him in Constantine's mansion. Some blame Garrett for making the City vulnerable now, and if he somehow needs to go prevent a huge disaster again, there's no-one out there to help. Some new power needs to emerge to help the City survive. It could actually be that this time it won't.

No-one wants to see the sudden downfall of the City through the eyes of some amateur who has no idea how it all came to be. The chain of events that Garrett's recruitment to the keepers started has led to this point. He's the only one who can possibly solve the problem.

Davehall380

09-04-2009, 03:05 AM

No-one wants to see the sudden downfall of the City through the eyes of some amateur who has no idea how it all came to be. The chain of events that Garrett's recruitment to the keepers started has led to this point. He's the only one who can possibly solve the problem.

An assumption that a new character would be an amatuer, and an even bigger assumption that this person hasn't observed the events within the city . . .

jimasripper

09-04-2009, 03:53 AM

Hello people.My opinion is that Garret should remain in Thief 4 but should also have that little girl from Thief 3 for his apprentice.To help him sometimes in missions,train her and more.

mysticspeculation

09-04-2009, 03:55 AM

I think Garrett should be the protaganist. I don't want to play a Thief game where the playable character moves like Garrett, has the skills of Garrett, but it isn't Garrett. He is such a classic character that his story really deserves a proper ending - I even think it would be interesting to see him die at the end of this one. The player could be given a choice; Garrett could escape the City before it fell or he could sacrifice himself to save it. I would love to see how Garrett would react to knowing he was going to die, or seeing him watch from a distance as the City was destroyed.

Skarsnik

09-04-2009, 04:34 AM

Thief 4 without Garret would be like a Duke Nukem game without Duke Nukem.. And thats about all I have to say. Its a win/loose situation. Garret is a must..

And yea, that little girl, just exile her forever to some dark corner of the world.. I dont want to see that happen, specially not a grown up girl with slimmed photomodelloid body and a scantly leather outfit. Just dont do it!

windwalker

09-04-2009, 05:01 AM

Keep Garret. His story has a new twist and he has new connections so his life has become a very good and interesting storytelling medium again. His unique character is too much to miss. Creating another character will eventually lead to comparisons, which Garret always will win.

IF EIDOS insists on a new character, it must be unique and must not be contradictory to him/herself, the game atmosphere and to the story. A very hard work and unneccesary risk.

Platinumoxicity

09-04-2009, 05:40 AM

An assumption that a new character would be an amatuer, and an even bigger assumption that this person hasn't observed the events within the city . . .

I assume that every character, even a transgenic superthief, Jesus Christ or the Master Builder himself are all "amateurs" compared to Garrett. That's one reason why the character can't be changed. They can't make a character as good as Garrett to replace him, and that would be one of the things in T4 that is WORSE than in TDS! Think about it. How embarrassing is that?

I also assume that the character who's not Garrett hasn't been Garrett in the past, if that makes any sense to you. Every time Garrett has saved the City, he's done it in secret. Nobody's ever seen him do anything. Nobody's ever seen anything he's done. So, a new character can't recall any problems he might have caused to be able to make them right again. Also, this new character hasn't been the true keeper that's actions have led the City to this point, so this character shouldn't be the one who makes everything right.

de igne ligneisque

09-04-2009, 06:36 AM

I suppose the comments show a preference for Garrett as a leader of a new order?

No preference was intended. I was running off at the mouth just to show the potential for various plot directions. I did not intend to express favour for any of them. Although NOW I feel a need to defend that particular option...
I never meant that Garrett would WILLINGLY be a leader of anything. I just thought clever writers, if so inclined, could create a situation (most likely drawing on Garrett's desire for self-preservation, i.e. make the new state of the city so dangerous that Garrett feels he has no choice) where Garrett is forced into an authority like position. (ASIDE: I mean, the Keepers are in a pretty desperate situation at this point anyway, so who will they turn to...? They usually turn to Garrett. But, maybe they will turn to the Hammerites or pagans or nobles or mages or some new high-ranking Keeper, who will inevitably have his own agenda. I don't know. I do believe the Keepers are really in trouble at the end of the last game. They've lost their magic. To the regular Joe, a bunch of odd buildings and a weird hooded cult claiming to be guardians-of-the-city have just appeared out of nowhere. I smell confusion and fear. And anyone who thought that they were big-shots in the city (and there's always been plenty of them in Thief games) are going to be really pissed when they learn such a secret was kept from them and that they were never the real power. END OF SIDEBAR) Nevertheless, if at all, Garrett would have to be a reluctant leader; reluctant like Brian in "Life of Brian": "What should we do, oh Lord?" "Just f*@k off!" "...How shalt we f*@k off, oh Lord?"

Anywho, there's plenty of other interesting, and admittedly more plausible, roads the story could travel. Really, I just don't want the game to be done half-assedly. Whatever they choose for a plot, the developers should have logical reasons, and use their whole ass.

Neb

09-04-2009, 06:48 AM

Things will get bad in the City. There isn't a secret agency to prevent disasters before they happen.

Spoken like a true Keeper.

Face it, your fetish for order and control is at an end. A power vacuum has opened.

:rasp:

Lost Taffer

09-04-2009, 08:42 AM

If they keep Garrett, they should also remake TDP and TMA using the new engine. New fans need to play these so they can come to love Garrett as much as us. Not many ppl are going to put the time and trouble it takes to get TDP or TMA to run on a current system. (Vista SUCKS!):mad2:

geler7

09-04-2009, 09:27 AM

Should Garrett remain the main protagonist in T4?
Or if he is not the main character, what should his role be? :scratch:

What about the little girl that you see in the ending of T3: DS?
Perhaps she has grown up and features in T4?

Discuss... :)
not really. i mean, i am a garrett fan, but i don't mind if a little changing of characters.

Davehall380

09-04-2009, 09:38 AM

I assume that every character, even a transgenic superthief, Jesus Christ or the Master Builder himself are all "amateurs" compared to Garrett. That's one reason why the character can't be changed. They can't make a character as good as Garrett to replace him, and that would be one of the things in T4 that is WORSE than in TDS! Think about it. How embarrassing is that?

I also assume that the character who's not Garrett hasn't been Garrett in the past, if that makes any sense to you. Every time Garrett has saved the City, he's done it in secret. Nobody's ever seen him do anything. Nobody's ever seen anything he's done. So, a new character can't recall any problems he might have caused to be able to make them right again. Also, this new character hasn't been the true keeper that's actions have led the City to this point, so this character shouldn't be the one who makes everything right.

Its not that difficult to carve an alternative player into the storyline on the basis that they have an understanding of what Garrett has done. Whilst Garrett can only know the true story, an outside character could feasibly have pieced together what has happened. They may also have had keeper help, or tutalage from Garrett.

The point is, the developers can introduce a character that is not Garrett quite easily. However, this needs to be well implemented and well explained.

Secondary

09-04-2009, 09:43 AM

i agree for the most part. but i dont think piecing together whats happened would be possible without direct information from Garret, and he's not the boasting type. not even the keepers knew exactly what Garret did, they just knew that he acted, and they knew the results. when Gamall was undone, i doubt all the keepers knew the final glyph was activated, or even that it existed. listen to their conversations in the compound it seems most scribes and keepers were kept in the dark by Orland and the more senior keepers.

i agree with Platinumoxicity, Garret knows the City, and he knows how to handle its problems

Caduca

09-04-2009, 11:57 AM

Okay, forgive me if I seem rude but what is the need? Half of the people that post here will have only played Deadly Shadows. They will be xbox gamers that discovered the series only on its transition onto consoles. And although Deadly Shadows is great, the other games made it happen.

Garrett is very important to the series success, but what is the point of people posting here and saying one sentence. Most of the people posting either say keep Garett or keep him inb the plot but involve new characters. I say if that's all you are going to say then make a poll. Should Garett stay main character or not?. I, however have decided to say WHY Garrett should be kept as main character. He is the THIEF on which the games are based. He is the one that has got involved with each faction and whom the true fan of the series has bonded. However, if the game is to be truly innovative like it has been in the past and bring in more gamers then perhaps new features could be involved and not waste the series. For example, Co-operative mode would make the missions more fun for some. And on the Xbox 360, perhaps online modes could be made where you can play as hammerites or pagans in a deathmatch or you compete in a thiefing mode playing as unknown thieves skulking around maps trying to get the most treasure with daggers to kill other thieves.

Remember one thing, no matter what happens it will never be as bad as we fear because the thief series is too successful to be changed too dramatically. Remain optimistic

..and while you are waiting, dig out Thief 2 and do those missions on expert again.:thumb:

Platinumoxicity

09-04-2009, 01:22 PM

The point is, the developers can introduce a character that is not Garrett quite easily. However, this needs to be well implemented and well explained.

What I meant was that now that Garrett has taken away the one thing that (supposedly) was taking care of the City, it would be unfair and illogical to make some other character clean up the mess he's created. Suddenly changing the character to someone else in a situation like this is an obvious poor excuse for not even trying to get Stephen Russell to do the voice. Because you know... If there isn't S.R, there's no reason to have Garrett. If there isn't Garrett there's no need for S.R. It's the easy way out.

If there is S.R, it's insane to leave Garrett out. And Benny for that matter. Don't forget Benny!

jtr7

09-04-2009, 03:14 PM

Garrett is very important to the series success, but what is the point of people posting here and saying one sentence.

I think it's important to remember that this isn't the only thread where sentiments have been stated, and after stating them in great detail elsewhere, and repeatedly in several threads, a concise one-liner seems sufficient since most of us are familiar with one another. Working hand-in-hand with that fact, is the other fact that the devs are reading this forum, and we know it, so we don't have to keep explaining for them, who are our most important audience, but we might explain again for a forum member that hasn't gotten caught up.

DarknessFalls

09-04-2009, 06:32 PM

Tuxu

09-05-2009, 03:52 AM

Should Garrett remain the main protagonist in T4?
Or if he is not the main character, what should his role be? :scratch:

What about the little girl that you see in the ending of T3;DS?
Perhaps she has grown up and features in T4?

Discuss... :)

Oh GAWD please no.

AFAIC, Garrett is the "James Bond" of the thief universe and that lil' girl could be Q, let her tinker with some stuff - she could use her skills(whatever they may be) to make Garrett some cool armament. Maybe she's some kind of a scholer, and she could discover ancients secrets that will guide the game mission after mission?
Yes, Garrett have grown old, but how did the runes affected him? How did the spells, the pain and the poison change him? There are so many option to develop a story line that does not include "shooting the old horse" if I may be so bold that to me makes the whole notion of adding another player type just silly, if not an outright neglegance of the the "Thief" story. These ideas are just from the top of my head, a skilled story writers could take it far more then what I just mentioned.
I think that making her a main character would be cheap, unimaginative and mediocre. It would be *less* then i'm used to get from the story writers for this great series.

If Eidos want's to make a game like Oni with a female protagonist, please do it with some other game.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for universal suffrage and woman equality.I don't think the developers have to put that little girl as a playable charecter to even it to the feminine side like a corrective descrimination act or something, unless they want to sell sex, and that's cheap as well.
This game already has a hero and though old - a very skillfull and deadly one.

idea 01:
oni... - imma call the girl oni cause it's shorter then "THE LITTLE GIRL THAT YOU SEE AT THE ENDING THIEF;DS" lol) so - oni is a scholer and reads about ancient civilizations she discover stuff about the ancient middle east. At the same time, someone start commiting murders and is stealing the same stuff Garret is looking for just before Garrett manages to get to the objective. After a while oni finds out that the other thief is linked to garett, garret sees him and he looks just like him - oni tells him that this is garrett Ka, trying to get hold in this realty buy stealing stuff that are important to garrett and then the ka decides to kidnap oni and ransome her for garrett very sole! and yada yada yada...bla bla bla the good guys win, or are they...
-here is an example along the lines of my thoughts about how to "shoot the old horse" with style and not just replacing him with some anonymous sidekick-wannabe. Can you guys really vision the all-mighty Garrett sitting in boxers and sippers by the fireplace while adjusting his glasses to better read the latest edition of the times magazine while in RETIREMENT?!?!?!? WOT IZ WRONG WITH U PPL! :mad2:
idea 02:
oni is a tinkerer and a mechanist AKA weapon developer. G has to do some mission for some guilds, steal from this - steal from that, keep the balance between them so peace in the city can last. After some "balancing" missions people start to drop off, Port workers vice-guild master choke on food, a different guild master dies in a carriage accident, representative and spokesman of the merchants suddenly goes into hiding while a new trading company enters town.
While reviewing all of the death scenes, G notices that someone had broken the bones on the roasted beef and maybe added some stuff that caused to the vice-guild master to choke on them (with that new knowledge oni makes a weapon that G can use). More evidence are popping up and when oni sees them she conclude that the new trading company is using assasins to do its dirty work (roughly unlock more evidence=unlock more weapons ingredients), the plot continue to get thicker as G decides to go to the head of the Trading company and confront him. Towards the end of the scenerio the assasins grow so strong that they do not even need to mask themselves and work behind the new trading company as a shield so the head of the new company beg of Gaerrett to spare him and help him to un do the evil he created, of course - he supply garrett with some MOAR KEWL weapons.

idea 03: oni is the little child buddha and she teaches garrett kong-fu and he kicks butt! or not. :rolleyes:

please stay true to the world that thief is built on, thank you.

FLAME PLZ

jtr7

09-05-2009, 03:56 AM

Not THE GIRL, please. A single appearance as a very minor character is all I could stand. The rest of the game could be awesome, but the girl portrayed as too important would be a blemish or worse.

Platinumoxicity

09-05-2009, 04:17 AM

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for universal suffrage and woman equality.I don't think the developers have to put that little girl as a playable charecter to even it to the feminine side like a corrective descrimination act or something, unless they want to sell sex, and that's cheap as well.
This game already has a hero and though old - a very skillfull and deadly one.

Yes. Remember, only those who can notice the "female discrimination" are the discriminatory ones. If you can't see anything wrong in 1st installment=Male protagonist, 2st installment=Male protagonist and 3st installment=Male protagonist, you are not a bigot. Those who say: "All the other installments have had a male protagonist. it would be discriminatory towards women if we don't get a single female protagonist" are the bigots because their mind has been set to notice patterns like that.

Tuxu

09-05-2009, 04:18 AM

Not THE GIRL, please. A single appearance as a very minor character is all I could stand. The rest of the game could be awesome, but the girl portrayed as too important would be a blemish or worse.

Did you even read the whole thing or are u a member in a insta-post cult?!?

read:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1165211#post1165211

Yes. Remember, only those who can notice the "female discrimination" are the discriminatory ones. If you can't see anything wrong in 1st installment=Male protagonist, 2st installment=Male protagonist and 3st installment=Male protagonist, you are not a bigot. Those who say: "All the other installments have had a male protagonist. it would be discriminatory towards women if we don't get a single female protagonist" are the bigots because their mind has been set to notice patterns like that.

Well, not me and not my GF would like to see a Jane Bond movie...

[edit: data not necessary]

jtr7

09-05-2009, 04:37 AM

FLAME PLZ

I didn't realize that was bait, and that your non-Thief credentials matter here, or apply to the point Platinumoxicity made. Anyway, you seem to have fully assumed I responded to your post and your post alone, and have not considered other possibilities behind my post, and are making an ass of yourself with this overblown reaction. :(

Just this week I helped 7 pregnant woman to get their jobs back after they got fired from 4 different companies.
Hello I am tuxu. I'm 27, I'm a designer, an architect and a city youth council member, what the hell have you done and who the hell are you?
You're an Architect, and you type in l337-speak? You don't perpetuate that crap with the kiddies, do you?

Platinumoxicity

09-05-2009, 05:00 AM

Well, not me and not my GF would like to see a Jane Bond movie...

[edit: data not necessary]

That's just it! It would never even occur to a normal individual that a James Bond movie would have a female main character. Just like it would never occur to a normal individual that an official sequel to Thief would have a female protagonist.

There are only 5 reasons to have a female protagonist in a sequel:
1. The series has always had a female protagonist. (Tomb Raider, Perfect Dark)
2. The sequel is a spin-off where the story is viewed from the perspective of a female side character.
3. There is a character selection screen or customizable characters.
4. Every installment in the series has had a different male character, and when the races and sexual orientations run out, they switch to female. (Grand Theft Auto)
5. The sequel sucks so the devs have to sell it with sex by making a skimpy main char.

Same thing applies to the other sex. Mostly. Maybe.

13LACK13ISHOP

09-05-2009, 05:20 AM

Why ditch Garret? Let his personality grow and evolve and develop. It would be lazy to just ditch him for no reason. Besides he is THE theif. If there are other people with talents like him then he is no longer special. Also for the sake of consistancy keep him the same. I am tired of game series that swap characters each game.

fayfuya

09-05-2009, 08:34 AM

I got a great idea...really that's something clever! let's just keep Garrett alone..forget about that little girl..let's say garrett just stabed her in the eye when she tried to pickpocket him, and that's it...she's gone...forget about her.
Garrett is going to be the main character, end of the discussion.
Wow that's such a clever, and new idea! so good! so unexpected!, no1 thought about it until now? that's the best idea ever!

DarknessFalls

09-05-2009, 09:25 AM

^--- Until they try to bring her back in T5 with a mechanical eye :( *ugh*

Caduca

09-05-2009, 11:44 AM

Listen, the chances of Garrett being replaced are low.

The girl could be a co-op character.

Absinthe

09-06-2009, 07:44 PM

Keep Garrett. He is "Thief". Maybe have a cut scene at the start explaining what happened to the girl. Maybe she got arrested and her rescue is a mission. Or they decided to go separate ways. This could include a Garrett typical comment like: "I work better alone anyways."
The fans love Garrett. T4 wouldn't be the same without him, his voice and his character.

kin

09-07-2009, 01:23 AM

Maybe she got arrested and her rescue is a mission
I like that idea just like T2 first mission.

AbysmalGale

09-09-2009, 11:32 AM

CerraMorgan

09-09-2009, 02:24 PM

Or just totally forget about that little girl. PLEASE! She was just a symbolic ending to a series that started with a similar event.

What little girl? ;) LOL!

Yes, forget about the little girl. Garrett is the Master Thief, without him it just isn't the same game. Which is not a slam against T2X - it was a fantastic game and I loved every second of it, but I kept wanting to see Garrett. If they must include the girl, she needs to remain a very secondary character.

AbysmalGale

09-10-2009, 09:54 AM

What little girl? ;) LOL!

Yes, forget about the little girl. Garrett is the Master Thief, without him it just isn't the same game. Which is not a slam against T2X - it was a fantastic game and I loved every second of it, but I kept wanting to see Garrett. If they must include the girl, she needs to remain a very secondary character.

Ah! Good to see that there are other Garrett supporters still alive and well out there :) Judging from the last few pages of this thread, I thought all the fans had left the forum. All I've seen for some time is "aaah, you know, I like him, but he doesn't need to be the main character. Don't get me wrong, as I said I like him, but..." In my humble opinion, arguing like that is not knowing Garrett. Well, not that anyone can fully get to know this very secretive character, but most people who grew up with the first two games know that replacing him with some girl or whatever is just out of the question if the game should still be entitled "Thief".

SlyPT

09-10-2009, 10:20 AM

Why are you people so close minded, wouldn't you like to see Garrett from another perspective?
Remember that the engine is not so limited as before (I hope) and perhaps playing as a young thief who would get involved in Garrett's business, maybe even ending up in a fight? Think of the awesome possibilities. You could see a side of Garrett you've never seen.

Hamadriyad

09-10-2009, 10:26 AM

If the devs can do it right, I would like to see the girl some way. And definitely I want to see end of Garrett's story. In my opinion Garrett=Thief is wrong.

Platinumoxicity

09-10-2009, 11:17 AM

If the devs can do it right, I would like to see the girl some way. And definitely I want to see end of Garrett's story. In my opinion Garrett=Thief is wrong.

I'm curious, why do you want to see the girl? Have you grown tired of Garrett? Or do you have something against Garrett finally getting his wish and being left alone once again? Or are you a continuity-junkie, that wants to preserve every detail in the sequel no matter how insignificant of stupid it is? Something else? Pick an answer, I'll tell you why I don't want to see her.

(clears throat)

Garrett always wanted to be left alone by the keepers, by everyone. As long as he was in their prophecies, everyone was after him, he couldn't trust anyone and those few who he did trust got killed or almost got him killed. Thief4 starts in a moment where all his dreams have come true. He's alone. I want to see what he does now when he can do what he does best without interruptions, and for real cash. Thief4 should not only star Garrett as the main character, Thief4 should be about Garrett.

AbysmalGale

09-10-2009, 11:39 AM

i'm curious, why do you want to see the girl? Have you grown tired of garrett? Or do you have something against garrett finally getting his wish and being left alone once again? Or are you a continuity-junkie, that wants to preserve every detail in the sequel no matter how insignificant of stupid it is? Something else? Pick an answer, i'll tell you why i don't want to see her.

(clears throat)

garrett always wanted to be left alone by the keepers, by everyone. As long as he was in their prophecies, everyone was after him, he couldn't trust anyone and those few who he did trust got killed or almost got him killed. Thief4 starts in a moment where all his dreams have come true. He's alone. I want to see what he does now when he can do what he does best without interruptions, and for real cash. Thief4 should not only star garrett as the main character, thief4 should be about garrett.

Word!!!

Davehall380

09-10-2009, 12:05 PM

I'm curious, why do you want to see the girl? Have you grown tired of Garrett? Or do you have something against Garrett finally getting his wish and being left alone once again? Or are you a continuity-junkie, that wants to preserve every detail in the sequel no matter how insignificant of stupid it is? Something else? Pick an answer, I'll tell you why I don't want to see her.

(clears throat)

Garrett always wanted to be left alone by the keepers, by everyone. As long as he was in their prophecies, everyone was after him, he couldn't trust anyone and those few who he did trust got killed or almost got him killed. Thief4 starts in a moment where all his dreams have come true. He's alone. I want to see what he does now when he can do what he does best without interruptions, and for real cash. Thief4 should not only star Garrett as the main character, Thief4 should be about Garrett.

I agree to an extent. I think Thief 4 should ultimatley be about Garrett, though I wouldnt be distrought if it wasn't. However, if it is about Garrett, then id still like to see him being drawn into the story by outside influences. The whole tension in the previous storylines right from the off (keeper training) was about Garrett wanting away, but never getting that. If the game just lets him do his own thing, then it would be great fun (similair to the opening levels in TMA and TDP), with looting the main objective and a good story. But what really made these storys great was the dragging in half way during the game.

Hamadriyad

09-10-2009, 12:20 PM

I'm curious, why do you want to see the girl? Have you grown tired of Garrett? Or do you have something against Garrett finally getting his wish and being left alone once again? Or are you a continuity-junkie, that wants to preserve every detail in the sequel no matter how insignificant of stupid it is? Something else? Pick an answer, I'll tell you why I don't want to see her.

(clears throat)

Garrett always wanted to be left alone by the keepers, by everyone. As long as he was in their prophecies, everyone was after him, he couldn't trust anyone and those few who he did trust got killed or almost got him killed. Thief4 starts in a moment where all his dreams have come true. He's alone. I want to see what he does now when he can do what he does best without interruptions, and for real cash. Thief4 should not only star Garrett as the main character, Thief4 should be about Garrett.

I agree. I never said the girl should be a sidekick. Just I would like to see her, or just mentioned somewhere. I think it would be a little good reference.
And I want to see Garrett in Thief IV. But his story reach an end sooner or later. (most fans choose later or never I know.)
Generally I am unwilling for Thief V, VI... But it depends on Thief IV.

Telex

09-10-2009, 12:52 PM

Or just totally forget about that little girl. PLEASE! She was just a symbolic ending to a series that started with a similar event.

Finally - I was afraid that I was the only one who felt this way. The girl has no significance apart from being a symbol that Garrett's journey with the keepers have come full circle.

This does NOT however mean Garrett's story is finished. You know what they say about the Mayan calender - the year 2012 is supposed to mark the end of a cycle. This does not mean the world is going to end according to the Mayans, it simply means one era is over, and another is beginning. The same is true of Garrett. That story arch may be closed, but there are many more open for the devs to use when making this game.

Absinthe

09-10-2009, 02:42 PM

Maybe she was meant to be a symbol for the end of Garrett's "struggle" = dealing with the keepers and others. Maybe he can start something new where he doesn't have to save the world from whoever. It is possible that he can finally go back to good old fashioned thievery.

On the other hand, including the girl somehow would make it possible to come up with a game just with her later on.

Bottom line... Give me Garrett, black jack and lock picks... and I am happy.

Also... my birthday is December 29th... Can we get this done by then??? ;-)

jtr7

09-10-2009, 02:59 PM

Garrett and The City and that world beyond that The City deals with have a thousand more stories in them. All we as players need are a few of the best ones. Telex, I'm the loudest voice here against The Girl as having any significant role. At this point I cannot accept (nor am I obligated to) her as any thing more than a one-time informant, but unless Garrett states that's who that girl is, or the artist really nails the resemblance, we wouldn't know it was the same girl, and could only guess it probably was.

Hamadriyad

09-11-2009, 01:34 AM

I found a way to include girl, and I guess, it doesn't disturb nobody:
In one mission, we may go Downwinders' place again, (or somewhere else, it doesn't matter.) and we find a diary that tell that night in several pages. She may write somethings about man with key mark. Then we know, she is the girl.

jtr7

09-11-2009, 01:41 AM

:thumb:
It's simple, it's Thiefy, and we don't have to see her. I hope people don't want to see her again too badly.

Hamadriyad

09-11-2009, 02:00 AM

Heh heh,yes. :)

windwalker

09-11-2009, 02:15 AM

Victoria's daughter? We might keep being busy with our work and she might turn out to be her daughter?

On second thought, removing her sounds much more apropriate...

Davehall380

09-11-2009, 03:40 AM

It seems that it was an attempt by Eidos at the time to hint at a sequel and to give them the oppurtunity to continue there own perceptions of the storyline (which although good were not as good as LG's). The problem now is that EM have taken over and have there own story (which I think is now done or at least rough?). They have many options from complete inclusion to just plain ignoring the character.

Exit

10-31-2009, 10:42 AM

Thief, without Garrett, is not Thief...

jtr7

10-31-2009, 05:24 PM

:cool::thumb:

Vae

10-31-2009, 05:33 PM

Yep. Garrett needs to be there.

glyph07

11-01-2009, 01:55 AM

I think that at this stage, a game with no Garrett or with a Garrett accompanied my someone else even as a support character would not be welcomed by the majority of the fans.

I believe that the reason for this lays on the fact that if a new concept of Thief is introduced in T4 there would be no transition phase from the original story line to the new plot.

Certainly if an attempt to create this transition has been the introduction of the kid at the end of TDS, then this choice proved to not be an enough strong link.

If EM sees the future of the Thief series walking far from the actual main character, then this should need a story development that as more natural as possible leads gradually the players towards different game horizons.

Personally, though, I don't wish for this to happen as I like Garrett too much.

Platinumoxicity

11-01-2009, 02:42 AM

I believe that the reason for this lays on the fact that if a new concept of Thief is introduced in T4 there would be no transition phase from the original story line to the new plot.

That's exactly what I thought. That transition would have to slowly start from the beginning of T4 and the actual change wouldn't be possible until T5. But I still think this should even be considered. Garrett stays.

And I think it would be completely unfair to have the first next-generation Thief-game, with all kinds of improvements, but with a different person as the main character. Think about it. We've waited since the T2's Dark Engine to get a new game with an improved engine and a better Thief experience. The last thing they should do is cut Garrett's story in half, throw the rest away and show a 10-second video in the intro that explains Garrett's absence, who the taff is this new person, and why the taff the game is called Thief 4 when it clearly should be called "Fantasy steampunk medieval cat burglar - The adventures that have nothing to do with the Thief series."

ClashWho

11-01-2009, 03:53 PM

Of course Garret should be the main character. Silly question.

jtr7

11-01-2009, 03:57 PM

I believe that the reason for this lays on the fact that if a new concept of Thief is introduced in T4 there would be no transition phase from the original story line to the new plot.

Naw. It's just because we really like Garrett, and don't think there's a good chance he can be topped, as you know. The child is hardly interesting enough to warrant game character development in the players' hands, and that scene is hardly as mysterious or intriguing as Garrett's first encounter with a Keeper.

ClashWho

11-01-2009, 04:00 PM

If the devs can do it right, I would like to see the girl some way. And definitely I want to see end of Garrett's story. In my opinion Garrett=Thief is wrong.

I think this mindset is ridiculous. Making a Thief game without Garret would be as foolish as making a Batman movie without Batman. Or, for a cleaner analogy, a Half-Life game without Gordon Freeman. Sure, there can be spin-offs and the like, but a game called Thief IV simply must feature the continuing adventures of Garret the Master Thief.

Pieter888

11-02-2009, 02:55 AM

I think this mindset is ridiculous. Making a Thief game without Garret would be as foolish as making a Batman movie without Batman. Or, for a cleaner analogy, a Half-Life game without Gordon Freeman. Sure, there can be spin-offs and the like, but a game called Thief IV simply must feature the continuing adventures of Garret the Master Thief.

100% agreed:thumb:

Garrett has a certain charm you cannot break.
Comparable to Benny:rasp:

ToMegaTherion

11-03-2009, 12:51 AM

In most of the video games I play, the idea that the hero is the same person in each element of the series is something rare rather than usual, so I don't really see why the identification of a series with a particular protagonist is assumed here.

It is of course reasonable to argue that you think Garrett is important and that a change would most likely be bad, but the whole "it's not Thief 4 without..." argument doesn't seem to have any foundation in either logic or precedent, so I think if people want to use this line they actually need to justify it rather than assume it, because it is far too non-obvious to be assumed.

ClashWho

11-03-2009, 08:22 AM

In most of the video games I play, the idea that the hero is the same person in each element of the series is something rare rather than usual, so I don't really see why the identification of a series with a particular protagonist is assumed here.

You don't see why? Really? Do you think it might be because every single Thief game to date has featured the continuing adventures of Garret the master thief? Because that's why I think he's crucial to the series.

It is of course reasonable to argue that you think Garrett is important and that a change would most likely be bad, but the whole "it's not Thief 4 without..." argument doesn't seem to have any foundation in either logic or precedent, so I think if people want to use this line they actually need to justify it rather than assume it, because it is far too non-obvious to be assumed.

Seems to have a foundation in precedent to me, since the precedent is precisely Garret-centric games released under the name Thief. That's three games in a row. Give me an example of another video game series where they used the same central character for the first three games and then changed to someone else.

jtr7

11-03-2009, 02:32 PM

ToMegaTherion doesn't even believe Garrett is a character, has an arc, or is important to the series, and admits he doesn't get the 99.9999% of fans who've ever spoken on the Thief forums who like Garrett. In nine years of reading the forums, his view is a first for me. His view relates most to those who think Garrett's story is over, rather than the main theme of the trilogy, a new dawn in Garrett's life, and want to start fresh with a new character. He doesn't see that the storyline in each game, and across the whole trilogy, is centered on this specific character and what he can do, but then, he doesn't care for the story either, nor think it's important for the game. A new avatar having the same traits with a modification in equipment would have to ignore the trilogy, and should take place in another city to distance itself as far from Garrett's story as possible, or it would cast a gallon of sputum from a bucket onto the trilogy--respectfully, of course.

Silent Taffer

11-03-2009, 05:57 PM

So Eidos can't decide on what to make of T4's main chacter? A woman, or perhaps a present day thief that's like Garrett but not really (as some rumor I heard around here?)

Anyone who has seen Zero Punctuation knows what Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw thinks about Garrett.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/544-Thief-The-Dark-Project

He states in his review that Garrett was tailored by the developers to fit the players as a "misanthropic anti-social loner, making snarky comments to lighten up the dark and silent corners he hung around in".

Garrett keeps getting pulled into this world of magic and steampunk, amid the fact that he doesn't give a sh*t about any of it.

He's perfect, and cannot be replaced. If it's a woman thief you want, Shadows of the Metal Age fits nicely. If it's a "present day" Garrett, you might as well call him Sam Fisher and change the name of Thief 4 to " Same ol game you've played in the last 3 years"

ToMegaTherion

11-04-2009, 07:14 AM

You don't see why? Really? Do you think it might be because every single Thief game to date has featured the continuing adventures of Garret the master thief? Because that's why I think he's crucial to the series.

Seems to have a foundation in precedent to me, since the precedent is precisely Garret-centric games released under the name Thief. That's three games in a row. Give me an example of another video game series where they used the same central character for the first three games and then changed to someone else.

Interesting ideas here, thanks for responding. I can't immediately give an example because I can't immediately think of any other video game series I've played that even fulfills the requirement of "three games with the same protagonist". Perhaps someone else can help me out here.

I think the reason I don't really buy into this argument anyway is a question of numbers. If there is a game with one protagonist and the next game in the series has another, then that surely has to be fine. Precedent supports this, and it seems thoroughly reasonable. After two games with the same protagonist, is a third with a different one acceptable or not? If not, why not? It's only two games rather than one, how can this logically imply the third game "cannot be" a member of the series. It seems to me that we're just drawing arbitrary lines and then making really quite absurd statements based on these arbitrary decisions.

Let's imagine a situation where after x games with a protagonist, the protagonist dies at the end. Then another game is made of the same genre, same engine, similar gameplay, same setting, continuing the story through another character's eyes. What possible reason could there be for refusing to countenance the possibility that this could be called Game x+1?

By all means, people should be arguing for the inclusion of a character they think is optimal as a protagonist. But let's not take the argument too far and start making statements that are extreme. It's particularly hard to have an interesting discussion in this thread without it being shut down by "Thief = Garrett" reposted 20 times. People should argue their case as far as is justified and not beyond. Happier for everyone there.

jtr7: another post that doesn't address what I'm talking about. Keep it up.

Although to be fair there is one interesting thing in your post that reminds me of other things you've written and makes me wonder... your point of view seems to be that it should be a continuation of the Garrett story set in the City etc etc, or, if not, it should be somone else somewhere else doing something else. That is, either very similar to before or very different. In the latter case, would you still be OK with the Thief 4 title or would it be "not a Thief game" to you?

G-Machine

11-04-2009, 12:04 PM

Garrett is Thief. Would be ridiculous to consider anyone else replacing him.

ClashWho

11-04-2009, 12:32 PM

Interesting ideas here, thanks for responding. I can't immediately give an example because I can't immediately think of any other video game series I've played that even fulfills the requirement of "three games with the same protagonist". Perhaps someone else can help me out here.

They are legion. Mega Man, the Zelda games, the Mario games, Metal Gear, et cetera.

I think the reason I don't really buy into this argument anyway is a question of numbers. If there is a game with one protagonist and the next game in the series has another, then that surely has to be fine.

It's fine for a game like Final Fantasy that has established a precedent of different characters and a different setting for each installment. It's also fine for a game like Doom where the protagonist has no personality and no backstory whatsoever. Thief falls under neither category. Garrett has a very distinctive personality and a rich history over the course of three consecutive games called Thief. That's why the fans of Thief keep saying "No Garret, no Thief." You know, when you hold an opinion contrary to virtually everyone else, you may want to examine whether or not you could possibly be mistaken.

Precedent supports this, and it seems thoroughly reasonable.

Utter nonsense. The precedent of Thief is Garrett-centric games. Pointing to precedent hurts your argument. It does not support it.

After two games with the same protagonist, is a third with a different one acceptable or not? If not, why not?

Depends on if the fanbase of the game has become attached to the protagonist or not. In the case of Thief, the fanbase has quite obviously become quite attached to Garrett the master thief. As such, making a Thief game without him is very foolish from a business standpoint.

Let's imagine a situation where after x games with a protagonist, the protagonist dies at the end. Then another game is made of the same genre, same engine, similar gameplay, same setting, continuing the story through another character's eyes. What possible reason could there be for refusing to countenance the possibility that this could be called Game x+1?

Garrett didn't die at the end of Deadly Shadows, so the question is moot. If Garrett dies at the end of Thief IV, then your question will become something more than hypothetical.

ToMegaTherion

11-04-2009, 12:50 PM

Hypothetical questions can bring illumination. Why avoid answering the question? If we can establish that in a particular situation, it's reasonable to switch protagonists after a few games and keep the series name and numbering continuous, then this strikes a blow against those who write "Garrett=Thief" with no further justification. Essentially, if we find a situation where the change is OK, even if the situation is not the one we have with Thief 4, then we can suspect that there may be other such situations, so we can't make strong statements without thinking about them.

Line-by-line quoting and responding out of context is a bad idea. For example...

I write "f there is a game with one protagonist and the next game in the series has another, then that surely has to be fine. Precedent supports this, and it seems thoroughly reasonable"

You quote only the last example and respond "Utter nonsense. The precedent of Thief is Garrett-centric games."

But it is quite clear that I wasn't talking about Thief, I was talking about a game with one protagonist and then the next game has a different one.

Please try to respond to the content rather than what you want to respond to.

"Depends on if the fanbase of the game has become attached to the protagonist or not. In the case of Thief, the fanbase has quite obviously become quite attached to Garrett the master thief. As such, making a Thief game without him is very foolish from a business standpoint."

Like I've been saying, it's quite reasonable to make the point that you think Garrett is important and the game would be inferior without him. You could even make the argument that without him the game wouldn't actually be worth playing, although I reckon that is a rather extreme position to hold. But the very specific oline of argument I am trying to do battle with is the idea that if the game does not have Garrett as the protagonist then it is wrong to call it Thief 4. I think this argument is weak and is being misused to shut down debate. It's an easy line to write and a difficult one to deal with when lots of people are using it, and I don't like to see it.

Namdrol

11-04-2009, 01:01 PM

It's an easy line to write and a difficult one to deal with when lots of people are using it, and I don't like to see it.

ToMegaTherion the reason it is such a difficult line to counter is not because lots of people are using it but because it is such a strong point.

ClashWho

11-04-2009, 01:04 PM

But it is quite clear that I wasn't talking about Thief, I was talking about a game with one protagonist and then the next game has a different one.

But that's not what Thief has been, so I find the question irrelevant. I'm not interested in the "precedents" of other games. I'm interested in the precedent of Thief. That precedent is a game with the central character of Garrett. Even if we are to bring in the precedent of other games, much of that precedent supports the idea of keeping a popular central character.

Like I've been saying, it's quite reasonable to make the point that you think Garrett is important and the game would be inferior without him. You could even make the argument that without him the game wouldn't actually be worth playing, although I reckon that is a rather extreme position to hold. But the very specific oline of argument I am trying to do battle with is the idea that if the game does not have Garrett as the protagonist then it is wrong to call it Thief 4. I think this argument is weak and is being misused to shut down debate. It's an easy line to write and a difficult one to deal with when lots of people are using it, and I don't like to see it.

Is it possible to make a Thief IV without Garrett? Of course it's possible. Is it a wise idea? Given the near unanimity on the subject among fans of Thief, it appears to me to be a very poor business decision.

ToMegaTherion

11-04-2009, 01:12 PM

Edit: this is a reply to Namdrol, I will reply to Clash soon

Edit 2: I think from paragraph 2 onwards is relevant to Clash's second paragraph. Clash's first paragraph is still missing what I'm talking about entirely. If you want to argue that Garrett=Thief then you either have to establish that Character=Series is fundamentally true, which it is not, or that Thief is a special case. Nobody has yet tried this. Feel free to try.

I don't think it's a difficult line to counter, I just think it's a difficult line to deal with. When it comes to arguments there is a big difference. I am quite confident my counter is solid, far more confident than I usually am on this forum. But I find it very difficult to get any discussion going that can rise above the endless repetition of "Garrett=Thief".

Many people wonder why one would want to change the protagonist. I think there are plausible reasons that could be used (personally I don't see the point in a change, but that's because I have some unusual opinions). Here's a quick example.

First, let's suppose Garrett isn't a particularly deep or important character; he doesn't add much to the game. Then clearly replacing Garrett is a reasonable thing to do. So from now on we can assume that Garrett is a particularly deep and important character who adds a lot to the game.

So now, I ask: if one is making Thief 4, and one thinks that Garrett is a deep character, and moreover one who was written by other people in games designed by other people, does one really want to try to write him yourself? Maybe you do, maybe you relish the challenge and think you're up to it. But maybe you're concerned that you'll end up with a badly-realised and inconsistent Garrett (after all there are numerous complaints about this in Deadly Shadows, and this even had Looking Glass folk involved).

Now, one possibility is that you're just bad, and whatever you do will be bad. But I would reckon that writing for Garrett is going to be harder than writing a new one. After all, you don't just need to write a good character, or a consistent character, you have to do both, and that is obviously tougher than doing one. It may be that they think "hmm, we shouldn't risk this one, there is too much capacity for screwing it up".

Namdrol

11-04-2009, 01:32 PM

I think you are overstating the minor difficulties of writing for a continuing character.
Television (which is not my favourite medium but does have some absolute classics) does it all the time.
Look at Dexter (highly recommended though I've only seen seasons 1 and 2 so far), written and directed by a different person each week and yes they have a large writing team but this should illustrate the point that it is not a difficult job to continue the story of an existing character.
Yes, you could develop a Thief game, call it Thief and not include Garrett.
But at what cost?
You automatically create a knee jerk backlash no matter how good your game is.
Why do that?
When the alternative of including Garrett is not difficult to implement and you immediately save yourself a lot of headaches.

Thanks for the chance for a sensible (sort of ;) ) discussion.

ClashWho

11-04-2009, 01:49 PM

So now, I ask: if one is making Thief 4, and one thinks that Garrett is a deep character, and moreover one who was written by other people in games designed by other people, does one really want to try to write him yourself? Maybe you do, maybe you relish the challenge and think you're up to it. But maybe you're concerned that you'll end up with a badly-realised and inconsistent Garrett (after all there are numerous complaints about this in Deadly Shadows, and this even had Looking Glass folk involved).

Now, one possibility is that you're just bad, and whatever you do will be bad. But I would reckon that writing for Garrett is going to be harder than writing a new one. After all, you don't just need to write a good character, or a consistent character, you have to do both, and that is obviously tougher than doing one. It may be that they think "hmm, we shouldn't risk this one, there is too much capacity for screwing it up".

I'm getting the feeling this isn't about Garrett at all, but rather about Stephen Russell. What, is he asking for a lot of money or something? I'm asking because I'm having a hard time swallowing that you think "difficulty of writing" is a valid reason to do a Thief IV without Garrett. Franchise characters from Superman to James Bond get written by a succession of creators. I see no reason why Garrett would be an exception.

ToMegaTherion

11-04-2009, 02:03 PM

Well, I don't really think it's a good enough reason, but there are enough people on this forum who complain quite a lot about Garrett's representation in Deadly Shadows that i seems unwise just to dismiss the idea.

Mainly I am just against the idea of a fan backlash in almost every situation. Most things have chances of working well and failing badly, so I think we should not be too dogmatic about things. I guess that it's an unfortunate truth of the world that if I don't like something, I have more of an impact if I make a vitriolic over-the-top unjustified rant than if I just say "hey, I didn't like that so much". This leads to situations where it's better to go with the over-the-top rather than a measured response. I don't like this.

Namdrol

11-04-2009, 02:37 PM

I also don't like knee jerk reactions (backlash), but they're a fact of life and are therefore a consideration.

jtr7

11-04-2009, 04:16 PM

I'm getting the feeling this isn't about Garrett at all, but rather about Stephen Russell. What, is he asking for a lot of money or something? I'm asking because I'm having a hard time swallowing that you think "difficulty of writing" is a valid reason to do a Thief IV without Garrett. Franchise characters from Superman to James Bond get written by a succession of creators. I see no reason why Garrett would be an exception.

This is exactly why I've said it should be a total departure from Garrett and his story and what his skills are built upon, or it needs to match well. A total departure would better facilitate a new generation of players and make it harder to compare, and easier to separate. Since TDS actually broke his character in several places, and it was the original devs writing that story (with a lot more Terri, though), I would be impressed if EM could do better--he needs to talk less, and talk slower, with his particular cadence, which makes each word drip, for instance. You're talking about a reboot, and once again, mere labels--pronouns--with no substance or respect for the substance. What I hate about the entertainment industry is when they say they are being faithful, when they are just borrowing from the material. We haven't heard EM say they are being faithful to the characters, story, or gameplay, so they haven't used that marketing lie on us yet. If Garrett's skills were based on his inherent and unique abilities, amplified to a level that concerned the Keepers to the very end through his roughly ten-years of Keeper training, then that won't mean anything if a new character just happens to have the same skills without all that. It really is do it right or make damned sure it's obviously different. Don't try to fake it. Great novelists can mimic other authors' "voices", and if EM has one who can mimic the writing of not only Garrett (ho no, not just Garrett), but recapture the dark poetry of the Pagans under Con and Viki, the intensity of the Pagan and Hammerite mind and beliefs, the cryptic Keeper foreboding, as well as the rich humor that even gave silly gags depth and more meaning, then it will be a pleasure. If not, the writing still needs to be at least as good in it's differences, hopefully better.

ClashWho

11-04-2009, 04:20 PM

Since TDS actually broke his character in several places

How so?

glyph07

11-05-2009, 06:10 AM

I would be impressed if EM could do better--he needs to talk less, and talk slower, with his particular cadence, which makes each word drip, for instance. You're talking about a reboot, and once again, mere labels--pronouns--with no substance or respect for the substance. (...) Don't try to fake it. Great novelists can mimic other authors' "voices", and if EM has one who can mimic the writing of not only Garrett (ho no, not just Garrett), but recapture the dark poetry of the Pagans under Con and Viki, the intensity of the Pagan and Hammerite mind and beliefs, the cryptic Keeper foreboding, as well as the rich humor that even gave silly gags depth and more meaning, then it will be a pleasure. If not, the writing still needs to be at least as good in it's differences, hopefully better.

So u'd rather have a complete new Thief with no Garrett involved than to have a bad game product made of scattered borrowed ideas collected and adjusted somehow by EM.

If this is so, and I generally tend to agree with u, for this time, this last time before realising that I truly will have to say goodbye to one of my favorite game characters of all times...well...call me weak...but I'd rather take the chance to see what EM can come up with and maybe see if I can accept the compromises over Garrett they propose this time (I didn't get the observation made above over SR wanting more money...is that a rumor...is that true?!)

Just one last chance...if it goes terribly wrong (not much in terms of quality of the game per se but in terms of expectations from the faithful funs of Garrett 1st generation) then fine...let's move on, completely, at least to preserve the good history of the game.

Gosh, this last possible evolution of Thief makes me feel rather gloom!

jtr7

11-05-2009, 03:31 PM

Agreed!

The SR comment was out of left field. It's not fact, but it's based on the notion that now that SR is acting in feature films (!), he may command a higher salary. He's now done enough films to have gotten his Screen Actors Guild union card, if he wanted. I would hope he enjoyed playing Garrett/Benny/Elder Hammer/Civilians enough to do it again for the pay EM can afford.

DF-HellFier

11-06-2009, 11:19 AM

Garrett will be the best choice. But he MUST be played by Stephen Russel! Anything else would be a total fail!

VIKTORIA

11-11-2009, 03:46 AM

Interesting viewpoints from everyone so far.
This thread gets a gentle bump seeing as it is about to be heavily scrutinised by the community, for the Order of the Scribe challenge! :thumb:

razorstealth

11-11-2009, 03:59 PM

It's not an assumption, it's the best concept we have without anything to go by. Except the '4', not a '1X' or '3X' or no number at all.

Going with canon, the other options are boring, cannot really push danger and tension in any without disrupting the story and themes of the trilogy. It quickly falls apart.

Yes. We can think about anything and everything and ignore canon totally, but the majority of us want Garrett, and we want a sequel, and most want a familiar Thief Universe. This is why we put this much effort into developing our own concepts in this area. It's a lot easier to focus and less pointless chaos. The devs, too, can go anywhere with it. We have nothing to go by.

Yes. They were set back to square-zero, before the Glyphs were first discovered and their power harnessed. Wherever that power was sent, whatever keeps it hidden, is impenetrable for a long long time. As far as the ancient Keepers who devised the Final Glyph and the Sentient "keys", this was the FINAL Glyph, and they used the word "forever". We now have a chance to see a Garrett that isn't hounded by his future as cryptically fed to him by Keepers, a City where all Factions are all in Balance at once, without anyone with Glyph instructions to shift the weights to counter the eventual imbalance. A city with a major change in perspective as the Keepers' world is now exposed amidst the populace. A city that could still see the power move of corrupt Hand Mage/Necromancers and the Barony.

I still dont believe this is the Final Glyph as in the end of Glyph Magic. One needs only look at the end of TDS to see that. Apparently the only explanation for Garret's glyph glowing is that he is the one true Keeper. Though I wonder why did the glyph start glowing when he caught her? If it were just a sign of all powerful keeper-dom he would have noticed sooner. I believe the glyph was a signal perhaps representing a new beginning of the Keepers. I submit that this girl could be the beginning of the new keeper order and Garret is keeping her secret to prevent a new Keeper order or he sets the new order up with her in command so that he has the Keepers in his pocket... Of course like Jtr7 mentioned there is still the other factions. The city is far from balanced especially since the Keeper glyphs are gone (temporarily?) from blocking many dangers from the City. Who knows what Pandoras box Garret has opened by closing the Keepers glyphs. Yes there are documents in TDS talking about the Final Glyph ending power forever but they were not complete and would often end abruptly signifying that someone (Gamall most likely since she had most of the documents in her lair) tampered with things. As for the prophecies Gamall was the translator and could easily have changed translations here and there. Point is the prophecies weren't complete so who is to say that Garret wouldn't be stopping by Gamall's prison to do a little questioning at some point?

jtr7

11-11-2009, 05:04 PM

Namdrol

11-11-2009, 10:27 PM

...I believe the glyph was a signal perhaps representing a new beginning of the Keepers. I submit that this girl could be the beginning of the new keeper order and Garret is keeping her secret to prevent a new Keeper order or he sets the new order up with her in command so that he has the Keepers in his pocket...

If you think about what this would imply, it would mean that Garrett would go against every single thing we've seen about him.
He hated the keepers, he hated their shadowy hypocrisy, pretending to remain neutral while using him as their cats paw.
How or why could he set up an order?
He is a loner with not very good life skills. (By which I mean that he spends more than he earns. Still being behind with the rent at his age?)
And again and again we have have seen his distaste of organisations of any sort.
And why would some young child be the foundation of a new order?

The Keepers are gone.
They were are a corrupt organisation that rotted from the inside.
They were lost within their arrogant complacency which left them ripe to be compromised and ultimately destroyed by Gamall.

I have mine own ideas about what happens with the remnants of the keepers, but that's for a different thread.:rolleyes:

jtr7

11-11-2009, 11:24 PM

Garrett was not only never a leader, but he was a crap Keeper. His title as the One does not have anything to do with being a great Keeper. He didn't even have access to Glyphs until Day 3 of TDS, less than a week from the End of Words! The Keepers were all about the Glyphs and trying to adhere to their warnings and instructions, and practicing discipline to avoid being controlled or enticed by the Glyphs' powers, manipulating people to align the weights in the pans to the Prophecies. Garrett was manipulated by Keepers all along. Garrett did not just stumble his way through and happen to fulfill the prophecies.

TheNuclears

11-12-2009, 12:22 AM

Like it or not, Garrett is no longer the self-obsessed lone wolf we met at the beginning of The Dark Project due to nifty little parts of the game called PLOT ADVANCEMENT and CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, which I think the series has done very well. For people who seem to love the character so much, a lot of people seem to be willfully ignoring the way he grew and changed over the course of the series to date. Garrett was revealed to be the True Keeper from the prophecies, and him referring to himself as a Keeper at the end of Deadly Shadows lets us know he's come to accept that. So if Garrett is the player's character in Thief 4, either you'll be playing as him as a Keeper (no random robberies anymore) or it'll completely invalidate the events of the previous three games to the point of rendering them meaningless.

It's all very Han Solo. Smuggler who's in it for the money turns into selfless Rebel general while still being a badass the whole way through.

I'm all for a new protagonist. Garrett as an NPC Keeper is a much more interesting plot development than I think most of you give it credit for. I mean, when you get down to it, he's ALWAYS been a Keeper -- not in what the order ended up as (a bunch of nerds reading prophecies and watching without acting), but rather doing what they were meant to do all along in his own way. And it seems like he's realized that by the end of the third game.

EDIT: Here's the most interesting way I see this playing out: start as a completely new character with no ties to anything that's happened before, but a boatload of raw potential and a penchant for taking other people's property. Along the course of the game, the Cutscene Girl appears as a rival/foil, who always seems to be in the same place at the same time for completely different reasons (namely, missions from her mentor, the new leader of the Keepers -- Garrett, who has a decidedly more hands on approach than sitting around watching symbols). Very Mona Sax-esque (from Max Payne). Enter Cataclysmic Threat to the City #4, with the PC being drawn into it kicking and screaming just like Garrett did back in the day. This is all wishful thinking of course, but I think that's a tasteful way of handling it that still provides early level freelance looting, which is impossible with Garrett now and it'd be cheesy if his new apprentice (because, yes, folks, the Girl is going to be his new apprentice, duh) just ended up being the same old Garrett-type character reskinned and going "Screw this, I'm gonna go rob people" exactly like he did, but at some later point we end up with the classic Thief theme of getting wrapped up in Big Earthshaking Events when you just wanna be left alone.

jtr7

11-12-2009, 12:41 AM

Nope. He never became a caring fatherly type nor retired. Yes, he most certainly had a character arc. Absolutely. Back off there, taffer. Yeah, he performed his graduation ceremony on Day 3, the ceremony he refused for himself the day he left the Keepers in disgust. Now there are no Glyphs, and if you think the Keepers weren't Glyph-driven and Garrett wasn't pushed and led all the way, then you sorely misunderstand the Keeper Order. He was the One True Keeper and did the one thing no other Keeper would or could do, and he brought Balance back to the corrupt Order. His job is done. Without Scribing Glyph Prophecies--another thing Garrett hated, and he DID say he never wanted to see another Glyph again AFTER the Final Glyph was activated--there is no Keeper future. It's nothing profound to call one's self the title given to him over and over again. He found it amusing.

And more than one of us agree Thief 4 should be a total departure from the trilogy's stories, or it will be an insult and render it all meaningless, if it doesn't adhere to it. It's also an insult to have another character that has all of Garrett's abilities, in his timeline, and no Keeper or Glyph ties. It's also an insult to gut Garrett's core traits. Not a lot of us would like playing that pseudo-Garrett. Garrett suddenly doesn't care for thievery? Gimme a taffin' break. And I hope you won't say the Mark changed him and he's all soft and serene and seeking to shepherd a lost and aimless flock...to any degree. Gag me. He was guided by the Glyphs to this destiny, and then the Mark changes him fundamentally into a guy who wears cloaks and has Stephen Russell's voice that has no use for his special skill-set that saved The City thrice? No. Much better to start all over and get away from Garrett before killing his spirit that we (most of us, anyway) love.

All the Keeper's oldest and most important writings are gone. There is no curriculum, and Garrett is not an Elder or of any high ranking in Glyph knowledge. The sprawling Keeper Compound is now exposed for all to see. There will be consequences for The City to suddenly see hundreds of Keepers and new buildings appearing and there will be questions. If not, the writers will have skipped something huge. Without Glyphs, there are no Keepers. To think otherwise is folly. Garrett, the exceptionally skilled acolyte, was trained for about a decade before he left. He does not possess the knowledge of the most important books, save the ones he read that Gamall stole. The Keepers did not memorize the books, but kept reading them over and over and with thousands, perhaps millions of books, and the fact that there is no indication of a Glyph of photographic memory of any kind means there is precious little information to pass on that the ex-Keepers don't already know. They have no magic ink for the Glyphs to empower or shape to their will. They have nothing for the Scribes to copy over in their studies and by doing so, preserving writings through making copies. There are no Glyphs for their disciplines to prepare and preserve them to use. A Keeper is trained to be master of Glyphs, and must strive to never be mastered by the Glyphs. What Glyphs, now? Where will they all meet? The ex-Keepers all have to get regular jobs, now. There are no writings about what they will need to know and do in these Unwritten Times. The game states that the Prophecies ended on Day 8--at the latest--so there is no knowledge of their future in anyone's head to share. It's over for the Keepers as anything resembling that now-dead Order. Why is one word, one face, and a key-shaped scar, so powerful to you that the flat-out statements, repeated in-game canon in several places, against your ideas, are swept away? The trilogy led up to that final moment of a Glyphless world, and you want to crawl back to it in denial. Garrett got what he always wanted. The next game should be about Garrett learning the hard way about being careful what one wishes for, 'cause they just might get it. Thankfully, if I get what I wish for, I'm not obligated to buy it or play it if it backfires.

windwalker

11-12-2009, 03:04 AM

About ex-keepers:

They probably will try to stick to old organisation and rules, without any glyphs and/or mystical powers. Some of them probably will go astray, but some will stick together, still trying to preserve the "balance" in their minds. Maybe some of them will follow Garret's role, maybe they will become historians, or an organisation that tries to place their own into some important governmental / organisational high-rank places as agents.

This can give birth to some interesting storylines, actually.

razorstealth

11-12-2009, 06:00 PM

What are you talking about? Garrett's glyph glowing? The game calls it a "Mark." It doesn't glow. Hold your hand over a bright flashlight. Once The Eye stops glowing, his hand isn't illuminated anymore. He's marked, like the baby in Willow. It's nothing new in fantasy and doesn't mean he has powers. You disregard a major point of the whole dang story in TDS and across the trilogy to expect Glyphs to come back in Garrett's and the current Keepers' lifetime.

How many times does the game have to say "Final", "Forever", "End of Words", "Crippled", "Withered", "Wretched", "Bleak Unwritten", "Perish", and "LAST of ALL Glyphs"? Seriously, it's like wanting to resurrect a dead character. Grieve the loss and move on. The Keepers who devised the Final Glyph with preventing the corrupt Keepers to continue were Keepers who were the least corrupt and most Balanced, before Gamall began hiding books and messing with forbidden glyphs over the centuries.

I have watched the final cutscene and am surprised at how boldly it states things that people cannot hear, and shows things people cannot see. Also, the final cutscene is not separate from the trilogy, and does not trump all that came before, but is the culmination. Garrett has no interest in glyphs, never wants to see them again, and has stated so in all the games. He finally got his wish. It flies in the face of Thief to give Garrett powers, so please, no.

I am talking about when his "mark" glows when he grabs the girl. Sorry should have specified.. I did not like the Keepers much, but I sure loved sneaking past them and their Enforcers. Whether I like them or not is null, I simply believe the Keepers predicted doom is not set in stone. I believe the Keepers and glyph magic can appear once more. Your argument of the Keeper corruption reinforces this idea. Because of corruption mistakes in there books appear. And as I said before the least corrupt Keepers records were hidden and possibly tampered with by Gamall. If you want absolute proof about how the Keepers are wrong look no further than the prophecy of the age of darkness.. thanks to Garrett this never came to pass. Actually strike that, it did come to pass but only for the Keepers. The Unwritten Times- their loss of all written records, Light shall become darkness- the loss of their powers, Time shall become Pain- obviously every one of those Keepers has got to be hating the loss of their powers. The point is that their interpretation of this Prophecy was different than what happened. And they never finished the Compendium of Reproach due to Caduca's murder, who really is to say there weren't more prophecies of the return of glyph magic and the Keepers order? I'm not disagreeing with you because I can't bear to see the Keepers gone, I am disagreeing with you because your theories and interpretations of the final scene of TDS is not the only possible interpretation and really only Thief 4 can show that.

As for Garrett, I believe he should be the main character simply because he is Not done. As I demonstrated above, nobody can really say for certain what the ending of TDS means, but I believe there are countless ways Thief 4 can use that and still have Garrett as he always has been, The Master Thief. There are many factions as Jtr7 has said, and any number of them including those we have already seen could be plotting some nefarious plan or plans at the same time. Garrett may think he is finally rid of these plots and will likely go back to thievery for the sake of thievery. and then fate or his uncanny eye for very important loot will pull him back into discovering these plots out of personal gain or avoiding personal loss.

jtr7

11-13-2009, 04:49 AM

It doesn't glow. Garrett's standing in the light. That's right, she had no problem seeing him.

glyph07

11-13-2009, 07:48 AM

Garrett was not only never a leader, but he was a crap Keeper. His title as the One does not have anything to do with being a great Keeper. He didn't even have access to Glyphs until Day 3 of TDS, less than a week from the End of Words!

Garrett was "the most promised acolyte" which presumes he can actually be a very good Keeper if he wants it. The fact that Garrett didn't have access to the Secret Library was not due to his lack of ability in being a great Keeper but to the fact that he left the order and before he left he was just a young acolyte.

Do u really believe that given Garrett liked being a Keeper he would be a crap one because of luck of skills?

I suppose the answer depends on where u stand in the everlasting fight between the 2 philosophies of life: "U are who u are" vs "U are what u do". :scratch:

Platinumoxicity

11-13-2009, 09:34 AM

Do u really believe that given Garrett liked being a Keeper he would be a crap one because of luck of skills?

"The greater folly of anger" -Taken from the briefing of the first mission in TDP. Garrett isn't fit to be a keeper because his actions are based on instinct, selfishness and positive/negative feelings. The keepers suppress those attributes and act on strict logic. Garrett doesn't allow himself to be that way, ergo he can't be a keeper. <---"ergo" is a funny new word I've learned.

Also, Garrett's status as the "True keeper" might have been a misleading title. He is as different from the keepers as they are from him and those 2 parts complete eachother perfectly. It's the difference between the lock (the keepers) and the key (Garrett) The lock has been unlocked, the door is open, and both the lock and the key have become irrelevant to what's on the other side of the door.

Hypevosa

11-17-2009, 06:41 AM

Posted here as per request of viktoria:

While I agree that what's most important is if Garrett fits as the protagonist in the story, I have to wonder what would cause them to choose a story where he can't other than for the very purpose to get rid of him.

If Garrett is to be gotten rid of, then that implies a few things:
1. That the developers must have had a reason
____a. They wanted to get a new face to represent them being the developers, a selfish motive that would leave a bad taste in the gamers' collective mouth.
____b. They crafted a story that somehow changed Garrett's character so that he isn't thieving anymore (unless I'm the only one who feels that Garrett is a do it till you die kinda guy? his extra money from each mission only seems to go into investing for the next, a never ending cycle until he can roll over the Baron's castle or some other amazing target), or something else along those lines.
2. They need to find someone to replace him.

The problem with replacing Garrett, is that Garrett was such a loved character that anyone after him will just make people scoff for one reason or another. If they just put a new face on him/her, but gave them the same personality, people would feel resentment at the fact that he was got rid of, only for some clone to take his place. If that character was entirely different, then people would miss the snide, cynical man with the awesome voice whose commentary made the game just that extra bit better.

Thi4f may have AMAZING gameplay and an amazing storyline, and yes, that means people will buy it probably if Garrett is in it or not, but that's not the point. The point is that Garrett is a loved personality, and a truly unique one when you look at the gaming world's collection of goofy accidental heros, silent protagonists, boastful gun toting ***s and the like. Garrett is refreshing, and while he doesn't necessarily make the Thief series in itself, he makes it BETTER, and I see no overarching reason to replace him, especially given how all the circumstances surrounding him would leave for some amazing plots that could still involve him as the main protagonist.

If, and truly if Garrett must go in Thi4f, then I demand that it not be done outside the game, no little intro in the game manual going "After the death/capture/retirement of master thief Garrett..." or some crap like that. I want to see Garrett die, get caught, something, I demand that I be shown why he isn't the protagonist. I would probably cry a little bit to see him go, I really just might, but I'd much rather have that catharsis, than start the first mission without him even being there, and go "YOU GARRETT HAT'IN BS!".

windwalker

11-17-2009, 07:15 AM

Garret is always (at least) half-buried in shadows. He has his own way of moving through his time, with an unstoppable characteristic power. Look what he did to his world; steal everything possible from heavily guarded places... and the guardians were shamanistic pagans with weird spells (and spelling) and monstrosities, hammers with their consructs, castles and spells, undead which... do not die ever, spirits, elementals... He even tricked a god. With what? Stealth and character.

Garret is like Conan the Barbarian. Just replace brute power with stealth. The superhumanly trait driving him forth in his fate. He would surely be a ta'veren in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.

That's why (in my humble but stubborn opinion) we loved Garret so much. He can't be copied onto a new face, no, it would not give us the same feeling. This would be the second guy who can alter the world with his stealth. Well, actually to keep things interesting programmers can create a female character, which can be a disaster - a sexual object for the many young gamers to feed on - or...

Nothing can be like Garret in a Thief game. I know myself do not want a thief game without Garret.

But on the other hand... I don't want to see Garret wasted. This does not mean the programmers will have a bad story... But sometimes, when you paint a picture and finish it... bring it to it's peak, it's maturity... You will waste it if you add any one more thing onto it.

This is a very, very sweet spot, the hardest lock to pick. I am not against a main character who is not Garret... and I am also against wasting him... Which might lead to the girl actually.

Imagine a game where you play the girl, but Garret is still alive as his mentor. Maybe she tries to get along with the new order of the Keepers, to "keep them together" or "to be a good acolyte" but the more he learns about Garret's past, the more she gets attracted to his lifestyle... and decides to give it a try one night.

So basically,

a story with Garret as main may shine or suck.
a story without Garret as main may suck or shine.

But what happens if the story involves Garret, but not as main character, but something important on the flow of events? What if we keep hearing about him during our play? What if the story drives us to face him in the end? But if he makes another "Garretic" move that solves it out much different than we expect?

I don't know. What I know is... "It's a loong way down" for the programmers.

jtr7

11-17-2009, 02:55 PM

Who he is and what he can do are inextricably tied into his life path, the Keepers, and the Glyphs. To just give his characteristics to another character without deep ties into a complicated system like that would do the trilogy and Garrett an injustice. It would nullify what makes him special. So then, the new character would need to be removed from Garrett's time and place, but even then, I wish to explore more of The City that we've only heard about.

Hypevosa

11-18-2009, 12:10 AM

the new character would need to be removed from Garrett's time and place

Why do you want this? why do you not want to see Garrett even once in the game? The idea of having a new thief and not seeing Garrett go drives me mad - I want Garrett's disappearance to be more than just a paragraph in a gaming manual if it happens, I want to experience it myself so that I can let him go without feeling any resentment at his disappearance. This is why it's a video game and not a movie or a book, it demands that we experience things instead of simply being told about what happened, and the removal of a key character to a series in a game deserves to be experienced, not summed up in words.

Platinumoxicity

11-18-2009, 02:26 AM

The removal of an epic character should be epic. Viktoria died in a major firefight with warrior robots by self-destruction. Karras was disintegrated in his own fortress by the biological weapon arsenal that he himself had created to destroy the world. If the last time we see Garrett is in the ending cutscene of TDS which doesn't in any way indicate that Garrett is done, it's equal to Hitler surrendering in the beginning of WW2 just because someone told him to.

Garrett's removal should be like: A deranged cult of elemental steampunk cyber-liches take out the entire power grid of the city, release thousands of shadow creatures that feed on human blood and darkness into the City, blot out the moonlight with artificially generated stormclouds and prepare to launch a warhead to the sun that will shut it off. Garrett must infiltrate their massive underground fortress to disarm the device. Ultimately the device can't be disarmed and the only way to stop their evil plan is to stop the launch. The device detonates, taking every member of the cult with it and turning an entire valley to permafrost and stone. The former keepers investigate the site afterwards, finding Garrett petrified into a stone statue. They secretly plant the statue of Garrett to the central town square of the City. The baron tries to claim credit for saving the City to his military and the statue is ordered to be taken down. The former keepers, the Hammerites, the pagans, the Hand brotherhood and all of Garrett's former enemies hold a riot to keep the statue in place. Garrett finally gets what he never got. Some kind of honor for saving the world. The game ends in a close up of Garrett's face when the last bits of power from his mechanical eye run out and the clockworks stop.

We will settle for nothing less.

glyph07

11-18-2009, 02:57 AM

The removal of an epic character should be epic. Viktoria died in a major firefight with warrior robots by self-destruction. Karras was disintegrated in his own fortress by the biological weapon arsenal that he himself had created to destroy the world. If the last time we see Garrett is in the ending cutscene of TDS which doesn't in any way indicate that Garrett is done, it's equal to Hitler surrendering in the beginning of WW2 just because someone told him to.

Oh my! :eek:

Garrett's removal should be like: A deranged cult of elemental steampunk cyber-liches take out the entire power grid of the city, release thousands of shadow creatures that feed on human blood and darkness into the City, blot out the moonlight with artificially generated stormclouds and prepare to launch a warhead to the sun that will shut it off. Garrett must infiltrate their massive underground fortress to disarm the device. Ultimately the device can't be disarmed and the only way to stop their evil plan is to stop the launch. The device detonates, taking every member of the cult with it and turning an entire valley to permafrost and stone. The former keepers investigate the site afterwards, finding Garrett petrified into a stone statue. They secretly plant the statue of Garrett to the central town square of the City. The baron tries to claim credit for saving the City to his military and the statue is ordered to be taken down. The former keepers, the Hammerites, the pagans, the Hand brotherhood and all of Garrett's former enemies hold a riot to keep the statue in place. Garrett finally gets what he never got. Some kind of honor for saving the world. The game ends in a close up of Garrett's face when the last bits of power from his mechanical eye run out and the clockworks stop.
We will settle for nothing less.

Like Han Solo in the graphite? Be sure that for the most desperate, even this scenario would not mean the end of Garrett (I might be one of the desperate btw). Someone would revive him somehow...and then...with other brilliant ideas we will seriously say goodbye to Thief series completely! :wave:

ToMegaTherion

11-18-2009, 02:59 AM

glyph07

11-18-2009, 03:25 AM

I feel entirely the opposite. I never want to find out the "end" of Garrett. He should be there one game... and the next one, gone, save for stories and rumours. Nobody should ever find out what happens to him in the end,

Yes because I too would rather carry on the myth and have Garrett always within the game somehow.

No though, if keeping the myth alive would mean reducing Garrett to mere "old song" enchanted by anyone before a pint.

Sorry, I can't just let Garrett go...I really cannot...:(

Platinumoxicity

11-18-2009, 03:46 AM

Like Han Solo in the graphite? Be sure that for the most desperate, even this scenario would not mean the end of Garrett (I might be one of the desperate btw). Someone would revive him somehow...and then...with other brilliant ideas we will seriously say goodbye to Thief series completely! :wave:

I'm pretty sure that if someone were to be frozen by a weapon meat to freeze the core of the sun, unfreezing would be pretty far-fetched, but doesn't matter. They'll probably go for some fate for Garrett that's way lamer than what he deserves. :hmm:

Sorry, I can't just let Garrett go...I really cannot...:(
Yeah, me too. I'm just throwing around ideas in case some devs in the distant future attempt to change the main character. If Garrett doesn't get the sendoff he deserves, the character can't be changed. Never. This can't happen without it being lamer than Matrix: Revolutions. (If that level of lameness is possible to achieve in our universe)

Hypevosa

11-18-2009, 07:48 AM

While that's pretty epic platinum, I was thinking more along the lines of removing Garrett so that another protagonist could take his place if that's what the devs wanted to do for this game.

(NOTE this is not a cut scene or CGI) I keep imagining us being the new thief (an apprentice, someone else, doesn't matter), taking the thieves highway to some location when you hear that very familiar "AHHhahh" come from the streets below, followed by that also very familiar light bulb popping sound and a flash that rises along the sides of the buildings. Peering over the edge (you know every last one of you would), you see a hooded figure running from a group of 3 guards (city watchmen, whatever), as he reaches a crossroads in the street, you can see that from each of the other 3 roads another group of guards, whoever this guy is, he's in deep ****. As the guards close in on him, one gets a little overzealous. "We've got you now Garrett!" and bum rushes Garrett, who turns draws his short sword, blocks the blow and tosses him into the group of guards behind him with his own momentum.

If you'd just be sitting there staring and do nothing: Garrett looks around for a moment, sheaths his sword and pulls out his bow his bow, the guards collectively jump back a bit because they didn't know what he was going to do, and shoots an arrow into a beam off one of the buildings, out of the bottom extends a rope. All the sudden the 3 guards, one from each street to his flank try to rush him again, as he jumps and climbs a bit up the rope (2 guards hit heads, as the third jumps after him.)

If you'd interfere on behalf of Garrett:
--Shoot a guard, throw something at one: "Oi, he has an accomplice!" for a brief moment everyone looks to your direction. Garrett looks around for a moment, pulls his bow, the guards collectively jump back a bit because they didn't know what he was going to do, and shoots an arrow into a beam off one of the buildings, out of the bottom extends a rope, and he jumps and climbs a bit up the rope. Soon the guards realize what just happened and start filing up the rope after him.
--Throw a flashbomb: Tink shhkuh shhkuh shhk *Garrett quickly uses his cloak to cover his face* FLASH, all the guards start staggering and fumbling about, Garrett seizes the moment looking for a quick exit, pulls his bow, the guards collectively jump back a bit because they didn't know what he was going to do, and shoots an arrow into a beam off one of the buildings, out of the bottom extends a rope. Which he begins to climb. Once the guards gain sight again they begin climbing after him.

In the end...: Garrett reaches the beam and gets ontop of it, kneeling down and pulling a dagger from his boot... from out the corner of his hood you can see the grin on his face. The guard closest to the top looks up and sees the glint of the blade, he stops climbing looks down and says. "QUICKLY GO BACK DOWN" . "Well, you almost caught me..." Garrett utters as he reaches down and with a quick flick of his wrist cuts the rope, causing all the guards on it to topple to the ground (grunting and screaming from them insues). Garrett pulls the rope arrow out of the wood and puts it in his quiver after sheathing the dagger in his boot, and jumps down from the edge onto the roof, and begins coughing - he staggers a bit and hits against the door of what is probably a staircase from that building to the roof, which he slides down a bit, then turns so his back is against it. (if the player helped him out and isn't close he beckons them to come over). Upon reaching Garrett, he's apparently been direly wounded, as evident by his hand holding his stomach area, the key hole scar on the back of his hand visible where he's attempting to hold in some of the blood. "Thanks for the help" He says, genuinely for those who help, and sarcastically for those who didn't. "I take it you're headed to (Insert noble's name here)'s place?... *cough cough* Well, lucky you I got there first... it was a trap. Take this *he reaches out holding a key and puts it in the player's hands*, it's the key to my place in the old apartments in south quarter... hehe *cough* I'm not gonna need it anymore. *cough cough* and check out the hangers in my closet." A few moments later Garrett passes - he can be looted for a purse with 500 gold, various arrows can be taken from his quiver, and, if the player so desires, his mechanical eye can be removed along with his cloak (his most identifying features, thus helping his legend stay alive). The player dawns the cloak, and for the rest of the game people assume he's Garrett when sighted just for kicks.

that's what I was imagining anyways. I like keeping it to where the player is never robbed of control. Heck, they could even kill Garrett or just ignore what went on, but that would lead to them getting to the noble's place and it having city watch busting out both ends (though investigation of the place would find literature detailing how the sting went down... all the guards were given notice of having night duty at the place starting at midnight, but were told it was a confidential assignment and telling anyone would lead to their being fired. This put all the city watch in the same place at the same time without anyone knowing but the person behind it, being about the only way Garrett could be caught.)

That's how I'd do it anyways if I was going to replace Garrett with someone else for the 4th game.

Platinumoxicity

11-18-2009, 08:39 AM

While that's pretty epic platinum, I was thinking more along the lines of removing Garrett so that another protagonist could take his place if that's what the devs wanted to do for this game.

You really hate Garrett, don't you? Letting him bleed to death on some rooftop when he was injured by some guards? Sorry, but my opinion about what you proposed is that it's... I dunno... pathetic. No offense but it sounds like it's in the same category as an "unfortunate wheelchair accident in an escalator"

Garrett could die that way in any of his missions, but he doesn't. Because he's good, and he's got quicksaves. ;)

In a different subject... Keeping Garrett requires some amount of work and more time, but ensures good results. Changing the main character to someone else is easy, but the game will suck if it's called Thief. When the main character isn't Garrett, the fact that the name of the game is "Thief 4" is only a dirty marketing gimmick, meant to rip off fans of the series. For some reaosn this reminds me of the confusing production of "Silent Hill 4: The Room". The game was originally a independent game called simply "The Room" -but strange psychological horror themed games don't really sell well, so Konami changed it into being part of the best-selling Silent Hill -series, to rip off previous Silent Hill fans and ensure profit for a game that's profiting was uncertain. The problem is that EM has started making the game from the beginning with the name Thief 4 ( or Thi4f), but if there are some of the main aspects of the series that are just too expensive or hard to do, they change them to something else, while still sticking to the Thief-brand. Because if they release the unfinished, bad game under an unknown name, it's doomed for loss.

I hope EM won't go down the Electronic Arts -road, making horrible games for little money and effort with max hype to ensure massive first sales.

handsomepete

11-19-2009, 09:00 AM

Yea I wondered the same thing, in the last one he found someone much like the one keeper found Garrett. I don't know, I wouldn't mind playing as someone else but then it's not really thief either.

Platinumoxicity

11-20-2009, 01:31 AM

BTW, can someone with video editing/mixing skills make a comparison video of the beginning of the Dark Project and the end of Deadly Shadows? You know, sort of like one of those "conspiracy theory" -videos where small details are twisted to mean whatever they like? :rolleyes: I mean, the video should point out the facts that:
(Disclaimer: by "facts" I mean my personal opinions.)

-Garrett isn't exactly being serious when he ironically refers to himself as a "keeper". Mainly because he isn't one. At least not anymore.
-Garrett doesn't ask the kids name, the keeper does.
-Garrett doesn't say that he has a need of someone as "gifted" as the kid, the keeper does.
-Garrett doesn't ask the kid to follow him, the keeper does.
-So the ending of TDS doesn't show the kid agreeing with Garrett's suggestion (that doesn't exist in the first place) to come with him.

The whole ending is open, and nothing prevents EM from simply forgetting everything about the little kid. And only the highly observative hardcore fans will be asking why the kid was ignored, and everyone knows that the hardcore fans are a very small percentage of all the customers and their opinion about anything is irrelevant in this modern, solely profit-based entertainment industry.

glyph07

11-20-2009, 02:32 AM

-Garrett isn't exactly being serious when he ironically refers to himself as a "keeper". Mainly because he isn't one. At least not anymore.
-Garrett doesn't ask the kids name, the keeper does.
-Garrett doesn't say that he has a need of someone as "gifted" as the kid, the keeper does.
-Garrett doesn't ask the kid to follow him, the keeper does.
-So the ending of TDS doesn't show the kid agreeing with Garrett's suggestion (that doesn't exist in the first place) to come with him.

The whole ending is open, and nothing prevents EM from simply forgetting everything about the little kid. And only the highly observative hardcore fans will be asking why the kid was ignored, and everyone knows that the hardcore fans are a very small percentage of all the customers and their opinion about anything is irrelevant in this modern, solely profit-based entertainment industry.

Actually, I think u are so right in pointing out this that not even the hardcore fans should wonder about anything at all. The way in which TDS closed sounds perfectly sound with that ironic way of considering life events Garrett's got.

While keeping the kid and smiling at the observation that there might actually be a cycle of repetitive events, Garrett could have simply found the whole thing funnily amusing, with no particular interest to the kid who represented, in that circumstance, the scapegoat for such reflections.

Yes, in this view Garrett has opened to himself a million windows of opportunities, in terms of his choice of role within the City and his understanding of the City evolving.

I'd love to find a cleat answer to that in T4.

jtr7

11-20-2009, 03:15 PM

glyph07

11-21-2009, 10:07 AM

Garrett paused, before saying "Keeper". Then he finished his line and smirked. His eyes never smiled, his eyebrows didn't lift any. He's not smiling upon her with kindness. He reamains neutral. He's amused at this bookend. A bookEND of a pair, not a beginning of the same cycle--a whole new start into uncharted territory.

I never said he smiled upone her with kindness, I actually pointed out that the kid was only the casual circumstance over new reflections.

As for the bookend, this is your free interpretation and to me it can be partially true together with different ones. I cannot imagine yourself thinking "one way" only and the observations u make in life I expect have ramifications sometimes towards thoughts even opposite.

Or maybe u think that each time Garrett considered something he was 100% sure of what he thought? I don't see how u can exclude possibilities over his final considering. :scratch:

jtr7

11-21-2009, 07:13 PM

Sorry you've gotten defensive. I don't speak here to only only person.

I also take into account what the devs have said, such as saying TDS closed the story. You are 100% correct that there are multiple interpretations of things. I choose avenues that take everything into account, and knowing I don't have everything to take into account, I take all I do have, and adjust things when I acquire more. I do not just see what I want to see, but I challenge my own notions as well as others--daily, hourly...

Avitor

11-21-2009, 11:09 PM

My Two Cents: I'd like to play a game with Garret as the main character.

glyph07

11-22-2009, 05:06 AM

jtr7

11-22-2009, 06:22 PM

I'm glad we can both disagree and not hate each other, too! :flowers:

negative_len

11-22-2009, 07:16 PM

Yes.

ShadowMist

11-23-2009, 10:54 AM

I'm sorry so many people feel so strongly about playing as Garrett. I, for one, am open to the possibilities
Howeverm since most everyone disagrees, then I must agree with them. The happiness of everyone is extremly important. I just feel that something radical will have to happen for him to get back in the game (figuratively 'game' not game game).Make it fit well in the plot line. I have no doubt it will be done by the good people at eidos.

Hypevosa

11-23-2009, 01:04 PM

You really hate Garrett, don't you? Letting him bleed to death on some rooftop when he was injured by some guards? Sorry, but my opinion about what you proposed is that it's... I dunno... pathetic. No offense but it sounds like it's in the same category as an "unfortunate wheelchair accident in an escalator"

Do you really think another fate is more likely to become Garrett?

Your ending glorifies him - which I agree he rightly deserves having saved the city on at least 3 occassions from plots that would render it to ashes or rust. But the world doesn't work that way - Garrett is first and foremost a thief. When he steals thousands upon maybe at this point a million or so in gold from nobles, he is a thief... and they won't care if he saved the city, and they don't know. Garrett will go down in history books as having been the greatest thief of all time, IF he is in them at all. The hammers and the pagans are the only ones who know what Garrett has done. The hammers can attribute the destruction of the trickster to him, and they might have reason to cover that up in order to protect what modicum of new recruits they get to fight his evil. The pagans know he killed their God - not something he will be remembered fondly by them for. What happened in the cathedral was only known by Garrett, and Karras, as Viktoria is dead and she's the only one who saw him get in there. The keeper's annals have been erased, so any written knowledge of these events is gone.

So if and when Garrett dies, there will be no parade, no riot, no statue in his honor. There will be no tears, no mourning at his loss. The greatest thief of all time will finally have been caught/died, and that's all that will be known...

Or, if the events I describe occur or some variation there of, the world may still think he's out there, his legend will live on. That's what my goal is.

In my opinion a glorious ending does not fit Garrett's character, or what would really happen. Even the end of the 3rd game, he is a thankless hero - no one knows what he did and the keepers aren't going to advertise what he did. Your ending strikes me as too fairy tale for thief... and while Garrett may deserves it, I don't think it's fitting or would really happen.

jtr7

11-23-2009, 02:18 PM

The ending wasn't a powerful surge into being a powerful ringleader, but a release, an unburdening, a casting off of a heavy weight, a decompression, a time of rest. Since the day he ran after the Keeper, feeling tired of his way of life, feeling adventurous, pulled in by the mystery--as is his nature--he has not felt true freedom. The freedom he felt in his childhood--wretched as he was--became the strong temptation of the taboo, the forbidden fruit he must taste, gorge on until satiated--not yet realizing he could never have his fill, always hungering for the life he had years to envision for himself. He walked around, almost moping, but so relieved of the pressures, he needed time to recover.

Another hint at his own rarely-acknowledged dormant inner Balance, which awakened just enough in TDS: He was not tempted by the Glyphs, as many of his Brethren fought within themselves to overcome. He seems to have sought the challenge of becoming a Master Thief through his own skill and cunning, rather than through magic--magic almost more powerful than any other kind--which he could've used to rake over The City.

...Either that, or he knew he was too unbalanced and would become controlled by the Glyphs, rather than be the master. :p

Hypevosa

11-23-2009, 02:47 PM

The ending wasn't a powerful surge into being a powerful ringleader, but a release, an unburdening, a casting off of a heavy weight, a decompression, a time of rest.

Exactly the kind of subtle ending for a thief game that's needed. Garrett is the last person who needs or wants glory, and while it would be just for him to get it, even if he's dead, I just don't see it happening or feel it fits in well with everything else.

I guess it may come down to wanting a happy ending vs an ending of meaning... to me, Garrett dying/getting caught on the job is the only ending that has much meaning to me. Him getting his own statue is all well and good, but it feels too fairy tale. Garrett gets his rewards by stealing to his heart's content. I would say that if he's lucky he'll reach retirement, but he doesn't seem like one to just give up on his passion. Thieving is his life, and it would only be fitting if it was his end in my opinion.

Namdrol

11-23-2009, 10:30 PM

Yes, Garrett is one of those unique people who feels no need to justify or proof himself to society at large.
It seems as if all he does, he does to test and develop himself, with no care for the fickle applause from the cheap seats.

glyph07

11-24-2009, 12:05 AM

Well, he's also very cocky and bold and sure of himself. I guess he would laugh like mad at a statue in his honour possibly despising whoever had the "brilliant" idea to create it.

I don't think that having Garrett dead on the job would be a good ending.

I think that the best ending should always have him a winner somehow, so, like in case of Viktoria (and this would add up to their already discussed similarities) he should always be in the position to choose his own end.

To me Garrett, should leave the City. Period. No explanation given but his own will.

esme

11-24-2009, 02:20 AM

the only reason I can see for getting rid of Garrett would be marketing, an attempt to attract a new audience, most likely by replacing Garrett with some prepubescents fantasy woman with huge breasts and skimpy clothing, something that would put me right off the game

if it ain't broke don't fix it

glyph07

11-24-2009, 06:19 AM

Platinumoxicity

11-24-2009, 06:26 AM

In my opinion a glorious ending does not fit Garrett's character, or what would really happen.

Yeah, you're right. What you said and what I said were the extremes from both ends. Mine wasn't subtle enough and yours was unfair and lame. Something in between would be nice. :)

But we haven't had any of those yet. ;) Not the lame, not the overly dramatic, and not the perfect one. We haven't seen the end.

Hypevosa

11-24-2009, 07:23 AM

If I'm not Garrett in the game, I'd just want to see Garrett at least give that last stand, and a little bit of sarcasm before he goes - and I didn't want it to be public knowledge he was dead so his legend could live on.

Trying to come up with a scenario where he might actually get caught, having every guard in the city fall upon the place he was robbing at one time was about the only way I could see it happening - traps can be detected, individual guards can be avoided, groups can be flashbombed if necessary. But around 200+ guards and you'll have people accidentally bumping into you in the shadows, and a flashbomb may get 5 or 10, but the ones outside the radius will only be made alert.

Unless something really cheap happened (some magician put a death hex on a treasure chest or something stupidly evilly unavoidable) the only way I see Garrett going down is something where intel doesn't exist, and where the odds are insurmountably placed against him.

Meesterjojo

11-25-2009, 04:00 PM

Should Garrett remain the main protagonist in T4?
Or if he is not the main character, what should his role be? :scratch:

What about the little girl that you see in the ending of T3: DS?
Perhaps she has grown up and features in T4?

Discuss... :)

Seriously? You're asking this?

T3 should have NEVER happened, and I think most Thief fans agree.

Maybe we could just pretend T3 never occurred. Either way- of course Garrett should be the main, why even ask? That's just...silly.

Meesterjojo

11-25-2009, 04:12 PM

It seems that Eidos Montreal haven't decided on anything concrete and are asking the fans for input which is a good thing.

.

Therein is the biggest problem. No Looking Glass Studios.

I spoke with someone who I cannot name from the former Looking Glass Studios (from Austin, met him at Philly Classic) who worked on Thief and he agrees: Eidos is really fubar in regards to where they're taking Thief.

When a member of the dev who created the game says that...well...wow.

jtr7

11-25-2009, 05:45 PM

Eidos has nothing to do with Thief 4.

Eidos-Montréal is not Eidos, and the parent company is now Square-Enix. Eidos is no more.

spyda665

12-08-2009, 01:40 PM

So im reading a lot of posts here about what thief should be and shouldnt be, about what weapons should be and shouldnt be included, and about who is the main character is going to be, whether Garrett, or some dumb bint that no one that has played any of the past 3 games will give a ..... about.

This is my personal thoughts on it all, I dont really mind if anyone wants to ***** at me, or praise me, but .. this is how i see it.

The whole thief series has been based on Garrett ... So he MUST be the main character ... Even if the developers want to remove Garrett from the game at some point, he really needs to be in the 4th' and maybe slowly replaced. He cant be just shoved to one side, His character made the game for me, and yes im a "I need boobies" player in RPG's, but nah ... Garrett FTW.

Now, I did have an idea .. As Garrett is getting a little on in years, and now that he has mastered the arts of thievery, theres no reason why, in his years, he wouldnt have taken on an understudy / trainee.

His understudy could be set in the game, not as a replacement for Garrett, but as a character that can go out with on "Side missions" ... inbetween Garrets main missions, earning some coins for his/her teacher.

He/She would play a small part in the game, which .. would introduce this character into the Thief series, and .. if 5 was ever made, could replace him at that point. And yes, if they do introduce a sidekick/trainee for Garrett .. she does have to be busty and hot! :nut:

But i do stick with what i say, Garrett cant be replaced for 4 .. that would be wrong.

As for the settings of 4, I loved them all. I would say The dark project, but, thats because that game introduced me to thief, so of course its the greatest thief of all time!

When it comes to weapons, Ive seen a few people talking about what Garrett should be wielding ... Well He's a thief .. not an assassin, not a warrior, not a gladiator, not a mage or anything else ... a Thief ... so Shortsword, and bow suit him fine. However I think some items that help him escape from confrontation and direct combat should be included ... Caltrops, Tripwires, blindpowder .. things like that so he can escape the situation ... When it starts becoming a "what weapon will i use today game" ... Then thats already been made, its called Oblivion .. This is Thief, and thats why i play it.

jtr7

12-08-2009, 02:03 PM

theres no reason why, in his years, he wouldnt have taken on an understudy / trainee.

Pay more attention to the characters, story, and gameplay, and you cannot conclude this.

Pieter888

12-09-2009, 12:46 AM

Garrett clearly stated: "I work alone...".
Though I would not mind an understudy, as long as the game is mainly focused on Garrett.

Platinumoxicity

12-09-2009, 01:08 AM

(Lots of thoughts generated with combining very basic information about the Thief series and the last 30 seconds of the end cutscene of TDS)

Think a bit harder next time, and by taking all the available information into account instead of a very small bit. Or alternatively, try to use those thoughts of yours while pretending that you never saw the end of TDS, and you've never heard of "the kid". Would your first conclusion still be that Garrett must take an apprentice? For a long time I had the same idea as you, and many others like you have (except that I didn't even know that the kid was female) but then I started thinking about it a bit more openly, and slowly realized that everything I thought of the possible Thief 4 was completely wrong and didn't fit Garrett or Thief at all. The continuity, the story, the characters, Garrett's persona, hopes and wishes... they're all against that.

AdrianAugust

12-11-2009, 12:36 PM

1. The player plays the Apprentice. Garrett is her mentor and is HEAVILY involved. He gives almost all the mission briefings and we hear a LOT of dialogue from Stephen Russell. Perhaps he even tags along on a few missions or comments remotely via glyph magic or steampunk walky talky. Additionally, we need to have a well-cast voice for the apprentice. She has to have as defined a personality as Garrett does.

I really like this idea and think it could definitely work. SR definitely needs to voice act for Garret though. It is imperative too that the apprentice has a defined personality.

Platinumoxicity

12-11-2009, 01:49 PM

I really like this idea and think it could definitely work. SR definitely needs to voice act for Garret though. It is imperative too that the apprentice has a defined personality.

But if Stephen Russell is available to play Garrett, why should we need an apprentice to play as? It doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't the story carry on from where TDS left off, the removal of the keepers? I think most of us want to know what Garrett does now when he finally got his wish of being left alone...

jtr7

12-11-2009, 01:58 PM

Exactly. I'm not tired of Garrett, the Factions, The City, the story, or the gameplay, and the future looks too interesting as is to spoil with the cheap writing of a storyteller who's run out of ideas.

Namdrol

12-11-2009, 01:59 PM

I don't want some god cursed apprentice half arsed add on.

Garrett_rocks

12-11-2009, 02:08 PM

Yeah, the main protagonist definitely needs to be Garrett, though having the girl in for the storyline maaaaybe a bit more would be cool.

jtr7

12-11-2009, 02:26 PM

Let her go. Like Garrett would've. And no, he wouldn't flip her a coin, either.

Loup

12-12-2009, 03:15 AM

For the builder's sake, drop the girl. The ending was nothing but a reference and a way of creating emotions. Why would Garrett get an apprentice? Why? Everything we have learned about Garrett versus that cutscene? Is there any resonable motives for him? I'd like someone with alot of knowlege about garrett, the keepers (and the fact that they are no more) to give a reflection on what kind of consequences this will have on the city.

I'd like this person to correct these interpretations
Garrett as the "true keeper". Does this mean that he, no matter of his own choice will be the balancing force in the city? Since the prophecy is done with him, it strikes me as odd that he with his personality in mind would not stray from such a position. Should we interpret the situation as that Garrett have changed and with a cynic, slightly unwilling attitude he accepts his position? This is what LGS suggested (not in unity like an anouncement but you can read it in an interview somewhere on the net) would happen in the third game.

With the crisis of both chaos and order being balanced after TDP and MA, the keepers being no more. What will happen?

jtr7

12-12-2009, 03:29 AM

It's blasphemously been suggested the Mark on his hand means his personality has been wiped and he's ready to be a father, mentor, leader of a lost people, and that the Mark gives him Glyph powers and the ability to scribe new Prophecies. Gag me.

There are quite a few posts along the lines of what you are looking for, Loup. The big point for you is that his role as One True Keeper is over--he already brought the ultimate Balance to The City by doing that which the Keepers needed but would not and could not do for themselves. There's much more, but I don't want to repeat myself just yet. I gotta get wound up first.

Loup

12-12-2009, 04:01 AM

I'll check the threads jtr7. Sorry for not doing so before posting. The suggestions about the mark sounds really horrible indeed.

jtr7

12-12-2009, 04:29 AM

No worries, Loup! :flowers:

I'm afraid there's very very few who've really tried to tackle just what you are looking for. It pleases me to see someone else thinking outside the herd.

ClashWho

12-13-2009, 03:14 PM

It's blasphemously been suggested the Mark on his hand means his personality has been wiped and he's ready to be a father, mentor, leader of a lost people, and that the Mark gives him Glyph powers and the ability to scribe new Prophecies. Gag me.

Indeed, if that's the arc of Garrett, then Thief IV should feature a different protagonist. Garrett could then be the equivalent of Artemus from the first three games. And who wants that? Very few, I think. Better to just have Garrett returned to his thieving ways and involuntarily caught up in another world-saving adventure. That's kind of the whole point. Anyone want to see James Bond promoted to M in the next movie? James Bond sending other 00s to save the world while he sits on the sidelines? No? Didn't think so. So why would anyone want to see that happen to Garrett?

aegisknight

12-13-2009, 08:42 PM

:mad2:
HOLY CRAP NO, that's what I was afraid of. I knew the ending of DS will get the devs some unbelievably stupid ideas. The ending had a purely symbolic meaning, it provided closure to the story, it might as well have been a boy instead of a girl and it wouldn't make any difference.
If Garrett is not the player's protagonist, then just cancel this game. Seriously, don't bother or you'll be eaten alive.

Don't you recall how FURIOUS fans of MGS were when they played MGS2? DON'T make the same mistake!

Thief is the story of GARRETT voiced by Stephen Russel. Period.

I heard that Raiden went over really well in Japan, actually. Some of the biggest MGS fans I know still prefer mgs2.

That said, Garrett would be the best possible choice. But this creates a dilemma, I love story continuity, so that girl should be involved somehow.

Anybody ever play Tenchu: fatal shadows? There is one route, with Ayame replaced by Garrett, and Rin replaced by new person. Or maybe you play through the game with Garrett, with his apprentice-girl having been up to something the whole time, and upon completion you can play a 2nd story through her eyes, kinda like Resident Evil 4 with Ada Wong's Separate Ways

edit: looking up, I see people making references to why Garrett would want an apprentice, or that the Keepers are no more. Well, I played a hell of a lot of Thief, but I might not be an expert. I don't know of any definitive reference saying that the Keepers are no more, only that they have no more glyphs. Since they were exposed, maybe they have a more defined roll in the City (I am aware that sounds dumb, but I have not settled that they are completely gone based on what I have seen).

As for apprentice, perhaps less of an apprentice and more of a friend. He already said that Basso was his mate, so one would assume he does have several other contacts, who do not accompany him on the missions, but are around nonetheless. Perhaps she's just a friend

jtr7

12-13-2009, 10:03 PM

She's not necessary. Basso's more important.

The Keeper Order is no more. No Glyphs and no Prophecies. Powerless. No information about the future. They need to get real jobs or flee The City. The Prophecies--which are no more--guided the Keepers on all missions, and were used to manipulate Garrett, save his life on more than one occasion, and eventually were extremely important for saving The City three times in Garrett's lifetime, and who knows how many more times before Garrett was born.

Loup

12-14-2009, 12:13 AM

As for apprentice, perhaps less of an apprentice and more of a friend. He already said that Basso was his mate, so one would assume he does have several other contacts, who do not accompany him on the missions, but are around nonetheless. Perhaps she's just a friend

If I walk up to you in the street and is say something to you which reminds you of a very special event in your life. Does that mean that you would like to be my friend or that im as a person is relevant?

aegisknight

12-14-2009, 12:45 AM

If I walk up to you in the street and is say something to you which reminds you of a very special event in your life. Does that mean that you would like to be my friend or that im as a person is relevant?

does it matter? Character additions are necessary to keep the game going. I'll remind you that the three factions have all been villianized at this point; unless the City Watch are the main bad guy (which would just be lame), there needs to be character introduction to have a story.

She's not necessary
now you're getting somewhere. What makes "necessity" important? Viktoria was next to nothing in the first game, just the Trickster's lacky. Then in the Metal Age, she's your buddy-buddy.

The Keeper Order is no more. No Glyphs and no Prophecies. Powerless. No information about the future. They need to get real jobs or flee The City. The Prophecies--which are no more--guided the Keepers on all missions, and were used to manipulate Garrett, save his life on more than one occasion, and eventually were extremely important for saving The City three times in Garrett's lifetime, and who knows how many more times before Garrett was born.
well, that would be a generalized plot issue. The Hammer Order was apparently no more by the end of the Metal Age, but they were back in full force by the time Deadly Shadows came about, with hardly a reference to the mechanists in the city.

The first three games were self-contained in relation to each other; after #3 there isn't really room to work, plot-wise. So if the story is going to make any kind of sense, there has to be a fairly large introduction of something. I don't see why the girl couldn't be a part of it. Tacking her on as just kind of a new person who Garrett happened to find and "took under his wing" would be incredibly lame, but it was left well enough open to do pretty much anything with.

But for some reason most people here think that would be the only route to go. I disagree; who said she has to be an apprentice?

Tossing it out entirely would also be plausible, but I guess I just also happened to like playing games as female characters too, and don't see why not to have her somehow incorporated. From what I've seen story-wise, its so open as to what might be going on that there is no reason to work with an absolute "no", unless you think that Eidos is going to magically pull a sensical plot out of events that have already happened with no new, large introductions.

esme

12-14-2009, 03:30 AM

The Keeper Order is no more.I would disagree a little with this, I think the order will still be there, in disarray perhaps but still there

they will have no direction, no glyphs and no knowledge of the future I agree but some of the keepers will have much the same training and skills as Garrett, maybe not to the same level of skill but they would be able to sneak, steal and infiltrate to covertly obtain information from those who would wish it concealed

so being used to dealing in information they could move to being information brokers in order to survive as a group

I could see at least some of the keepers using this as a way of survival

especially when the alternative is to lose everything

desperate times, desperate measures and all that

...plus thay have all this blank paper to write on now :D

jtr7

12-14-2009, 03:40 AM

esme

12-14-2009, 04:01 AM

true, but they are a well trained, well disciplined group who are more than capable of defending themselves or fading into the shadows if defence isn't a viable option, not to mention wealthy as you can't maintain an organisation that size on a shoestring and they would be looking fairly desperately for a means of survival

so yes the keepers are dead they have no more magic, no more glyphs and no more knowledge of the future, but the organisation that was the keepers could become something else in a desperate attempt to survive, instead of knowledge of the future they could substitute knowledge of the present which their skillset makes them almost uniquely qualified to acquire and deal in

I just find the thought of an entire organisations worth of people with stealth, literacy, numeracy and organisational skills being dumped onto the job marketplace overnight and disappearing without trace a little hard to swallow, I really can't see them becoming beggars but I can see at least some of them becoming spies

they have skills beyond glyphs and those skills are useful and saleable, a few would fall by the wayside but I could see a new organisation rising from the ashes of the keepers without stretching too far

a pale shadow of what they once were and very definitely no longer "keepers" as we would know them, mercenary information brokers at best

alternatively the watch could rush in and present them with a final demand for back taxes which as a secret organisation they will have never paid and put the lot to the sword for failing the "attitude test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_test)" ;)

Platinumoxicity

12-14-2009, 04:47 AM

They are disordered, most have no purpose, the scribes least of all, and dang it, the prophecies said they would "perish in the bleak unwritten" and "forever". The Order is dead. Their compound is exposed. They have nowhere to go. In the eyes of all non-Keepers, a gigantic secret complex sprang into existence overnight above, below, parallel, intersecting, and intertwined with The City. They gotta get regular jobs, or flee The City, now.

The scene in the end where the citizens are standing outside the compound and going "...What's thatOMGnever noticed that beforeWhere did that building come from..." for me it was never in the literal sense, that people really started gathering on the yard. I think more likely would be that people just happened to walk by some day, thinking to themselves: "hmm... I wonder what that building is for. Never thought about it before." -And the devs had to make a scene where they people are standing there wondering about it out loud because they thought we wouldn't get it otherwise. So I don't think it "sprang into existence". More like when you walk past that large government-ish building in your city one night and just then notice that it's actually the old hospital that you hadn't known the whereabouts of.

aegisknight

12-15-2009, 01:03 AM

I also don't see why they would need to get regular jobs or flee the city or any of that.

The glyphs and prophecies were only one part of what the Keepers did, namely the scribes and the interpretors. There were a lot of other Keepers out there. They were also the Keepers of balance, and the keepers of information. One would assume that a large numbers of the books in the libraries were not filled with glyphs, but just generic knowledge of the City, its history, and other such observations. Keepers can keep in the shadows, just because people now know their building exists doesn't mean they have any idea who the keepers are or what they do.

There isn't strong grounds to assume the Order is dead, any more than there was to assume the Hammers died along with the Mechanists at the end of Metal Age

edit: I see people are still locked into this "apprentice" discussion. It won't happen (or else it would be absolutely terrible if it did). An apprentice would be frankly kinda dumb, and has no place in the series. You start the first game as a fully fledged master thief, there is no reason to step down from that to some rookie who doesn't know how to pick a lock.

If there is a new character (namely, that girl), she wouldn't be Garrett's understudy, that wouldn't work with the story at all. But that doesn't mean that she won't exist at all, just stop locking yourselves into "apprentice/master" thinking and explore out a bit farther

Loup

12-15-2009, 01:45 AM

If there is a new character (namely, that girl), she wouldn't be Garrett's understudy, that wouldn't work with the story at all. But that doesn't mean that she won't exist at all, just stop locking yourselves into "apprentice/master" thinking and explore out a bit farther

You still haven't explained how she is relevant, why Garrett would even have anyting more to do with her.

As you stated earlier about my question.

does it matter? Character additions are necessary to keep the game going.

Does that mean that introducing them in a cliché manner is gratified? Is bad story elements gratified out of the nessecity of adding new characters?

this part is for Aegisknight and my point here is not about the keepers or the thing that happens in TDS it is only about Garrett's personality.

What is of most importance? Introducing a character in a good way or making a new protagonist or character in a rather desperate manner which is only grounded in the fact that the character appear in the cutscene which makes a point about Garrett saying things either because he in some magical way has changed after TDS or just saying the words beacuse of the irony of the situation. What makes you think she's there because she is of importance or will be of importance to Garrett? Now I like you to think how about Garrett, all you have learned about him and then feel what Garrett would have done in the situation written below.

Garrett saves the city once more, he walking down the street and a girl tries to pickpocket him which gets him thinking about when he first met Artemus and was taken in by the keepers. Garrett remembers the situation speaks the words and what then? Based on you knowlege of Garrett antisocial behavouir, the fact that he works alone and that he has never meet her before and that she is a streetbrat. In which way is she relevant and in which way is this a good ground to build a good storyline? Most of all can't you see the clash between this and Garretts personality?

jtr7

12-15-2009, 02:18 AM

The situation is not exactly the same. My god, man. The games aren't hiding story secrets!

When Arty recruited Garrett, there was an established and empowered Order of Keepers that had been going strong for centuries.
When Garrett saw the girl, there was no more Order, no empowerment, and no Glyphs to begin rebuilding any damned semblance of an Order. TDS is ABOUT the destruction of the Order. It repeats itself a dozen times. It is very clear and emphatic. It is blatant and very plain about it. The ancient Keepers worked very long and hard with amazing powers and knowledge that were hidden from the Keepers in Garrett's day, thanks to Gamall hiding writings and killing off Keepers that knew too much. The greatest knowledge the ancient Keepers used to influence the building of The City, shape the failsafe Final Glyph, establish the Sentients and make a Pact with them in blood, and who knows what else, was lost centuries before Garrett's birth. There are no Keepers alive, including Gamall, that know what the early Keepers knew. The current Keepers are intellectually blinded through malicious selfish acts they never knew occurred. Garrett knows more than any living ex-Keeper about the failsafe and ancient Keeper's intentions, but because he refused to read anymore Glyphs in his life until the final week of the Keepers' existence, he knows less overall than the average Keeper. Artemus and Keeper Nate tried to get him to read certain books but he refused over and over again. Now, the only useful Keeper knowledge they have left is philosophy and rich gossip.

When Garrett saw Arty, he saw a Keeper in broad daylight, that no one else could see, on a busy street.
The girl saw Garrett not hiding, standing in the middle of a street, alone in the light of a streetlamp.

Garrett did not call her talented nor ask her her name nor give her the choice to follow him or be left in the street.
Arty recruited Garrett, and there's a very good chance he was standing there waiting for the young thief to come along.

Arty had centuries of Glyph Prophecies guiding his every major move.
Garrett has nothing but his own whims and they were not enough to save the city or his own skin. The Keepers and their Prophecies came into play over and over and the Keepers nudged or shoved Garrett into action, and saved Garrett's life more than once. Garrett not only does not have what it takes to keep himself alive in all circumstances, he needed to be saved, he needed to be nudged and shoved into action, and the Glyphs--which are no more--made it all possible with Garrett as an important tool in the shaping of events. This all should be plain, it is not hidden at all, there's nothing tricky or sneaky about the information, the games repeat the same points repeatedly, and demonstrate them to be true every time.

Arty had a secret, Glyph-hidden, sprawling, Keeper Compound, training complexes, and libraries full of books with words, history, philosophy, and Garrett knew only a fraction, not even knowing the Trickster was real, knwing nothing about Viktoria, while the information was there between the pages, and in the minds of the Elders, including those who were around during the Cataclysm only three decades before Garrett was born.
Garrett has no secret complex, it's all exposed, and the books are full of blank pages.

Arty had Glyphs and Prophecies to guide him, instruct him, inform him, tell him what to do next, where, when, and regarding who, and why.
Garrett has no Glyphs, and the Prophecies are no more. They did not see past Day 8 of TDS, except for the descriptions of the Unwritten Times, the Third Dark Age, the End of Words, which describe that the Order is dead, and that the Keepers, in the sense of what it means to be a Keeper, are dead, unable to write more Glyphs, and that there are no more Glyphs "forever." Interpret it loosely, if you must, but the game hammers the point several times. Denying what we are told is the truth is a bad starting point for speculation.

The exceptional Garrett, the most promising Acolyte, still needed a team of Glyph-empowered Keepers and teachers to work with him for roughly ten years. And notice, the word "promising" is used, as in, not fulfilled. And as soon as he reaches his promised potential, he destroys that very thing that would put him on top--the Glyphs. Until he acquired the Keeper Door Glyph, he had not wielded the power of a single Glyph in his life! He has insured he never will again, and regardless of how far his character-arc is perceived by wishful-thinkers to have gone, he states he does not want to see Glyphs ever again, in character, as he had been stating emphatically in every game. He stayed true to his hate of the Glyphs and Prophecies, only giving in to using them to gladly end it all once and for all. This is not interpretation, the game states it flatly. Dismissing this is worse than misinterpretation.

Without the Glyphs and Prophecies and Interpreters and Translators, the Keepers are blind, powerless, rudderless, and they cannot know where to be at what time to shift a weight in a pan--manipulate a man--to maintain any Balance. They have no warning except for what anyone can see without the Glyphs anyway. They cannot prepare for what they cannot see coming. A Council of Elders, presided over by a First Keeper, still gathered around the Interpreter and Translator, to hear the readings of the ancient badass Keepers' scribed Prophecies to discuss and try to make their best guesses at what it meant for them to do. The Prophecies were not just words to be memorized, but they required major effort and exacted a heavy price just to be read. These major pieces of the Keeper Order are gone, man, gone.

Platinumoxicity

12-15-2009, 02:29 AM

The situation is exactly the same except that now Garrett is the one in Artemus position. Now tell me, what will be Garrett's reaction?

Garrett thinks to himself: "Hmm... Am I sadistic enough to drag this innocent adolescent to the world of crime so that she can get in the same dangerous situations that I did, lose an eye and end up saving a lot of people, only to get more enemies as a reward? Also, I have to waste my own time and money on all that. A difficult choice indeed." :rolleyes:

Garrett always knew, from the moment he left the keepers that he could use his skills to get rich. He hasn't had the chance yet, because of all the prophecy crap. He can either throw away all his dreams and continue to make it harder for himself to reach his goals, or take the opportunity and leave his past behind.
http://filesmelt.com/downloader/garr.PNG

Garrett did not call her talented nor ask her her name nor give her the choice to follow him or be left in the street.

Actually Garrett did call her talented but he didn't ask her name of ask her to follow.

Also, Artemus finding Garrett in the street was all written. It was meaningful and it started the chain of events that led to the destruction of the order. There were no prophecies after Garrett's job was done, so his running into the kid on the street was purely coincidental, utterly meaningless, and he knows that.

jtr7

12-15-2009, 03:29 AM

Actually Garrett did call her talented but he didn't ask her name of ask her to follow.
Correct! *slap*
You have talent. It is no easy thing to... see a Keeper. Especially one who does not wish to be seen.

I confused the fact he does not address her personage or say anything that sounded like recruitment. Artemus called Garrett "lad", and Garrett didn't use that approach. If we must have that irritating 30 seconds, I wish it was obvious that it does not override the whole damned trilogy's story, major plot points, idiom, ethos, themes, character-traits, and character-arcs.

Anyway, yeah, Garrett thinks the hounding Keepers and the fact that someone wrote down the outcomes of his actions already, days, months, decades, and centuries before he did them, and how the Keepers were steps ahead of him, tagging behind, and letting him do al their dirty work, and not feeling truly free to have his fun, are all behind him now. And he is just stupid enough to think there wont be worse things to come. The only way he can be rescued now is through chance and communication ahead of time before a job, or through the prophetic visions of non-Keepers, not through Glyph Prophecies guiding the Keepers, and guiding the Keepers to guide Garrett. It's all gonna be different, now, but potentially, and deliciously for us, more dangerous than ever. Will EM take on the new horror of his increased vulnerability? He has more physical skills and City knowledge, but he has no backup Keeper agents or Prophecies to push him in a direction or to help him escape death.

bambini

12-15-2009, 03:34 AM

But duuude, he has the Mark on his haaaaand! And the girl! She saw him when he didn't want to be seen! And he said that he was a keeeper!

It all makes sense. Garrett takes an apprentice, has a whale of a time training her up, but then he's seduced by the awesome power of being the One True Keeper. The game builds to a climactic battle in which Garrett, being the One True Keeper, finds the only glyph that survived: "The w00t Glyph", which means that he can shoot lasers out of his eyes and pound anyone who stands in his way with his special move "the Fiery Blackjack of Unholy Vengeance". The Girl, meanwhile, has to rely on a cheeky Imp that she befriends in the Magical Forest of Unagi, who gives her the power to make anything she touches taste of lemons and who will eventually teach her the Secret Tree of the Pagans, which is a magical tree growing 300 feet under The City. One dragon's tear will make the tree grow unfathomably fast, razing the city and taking Garrett with it. Will she find a drgaon's tear and stop Garrett before it's too late?! You'll have to buy the game and maybe watch the film adaptation to find out.

...or we could just have Garrett doing what he does best. Sneaking around alone and being all cheeky and antisocial in proper steampunk fashion. :D

Loup

12-15-2009, 06:33 AM

Ohh! Looks like I made a real mess : /

I read though my earlier post and now I see it statements is bananas.
Didn't mean that it was exactly the same when it comes to the fact that the keepers are history. I was trying to make a point to Aegisknight that even all the events apart which makes the Artemus/Garrett meeting and the Girl/Garrett meeting so different, it would still be nothing but bad story writing to inlcude the girl since it will play odd against Garretts personality.

I've edited my earlier post and now it says what it is supposed to.

Sorry for the missunderstanding.

jtr7

12-15-2009, 02:15 PM

All is well. We have achieved a greater understanding! Celebrate! \o/ Biddleybong all around!

ClashWho

12-16-2009, 06:53 AM

We can avoid all this "one true Keeper" nonsense if they just make Thief IV a prequel.

Herr_Garrett

12-16-2009, 07:25 AM

Platinumoxicity

12-16-2009, 10:36 AM

We can avoid all this "one true Keeper" nonsense if they just make Thief IV a prequel.

Actually, no. We can avoid it exactly by making a sequel, because Garrett isn't the one true keeper anymore. He is before T4. In TDP he's it. In TMA he's it and in TDS he's it. In T4, not anymore. :)

jtr7

12-16-2009, 12:08 PM

A prequel means a less-skilled Garrett, no lockpicking, no overarching plot that can stand up to the trilogy, and making Garrett just as awesome as in the trilogy means Garrett's arc is undercut. It also seems the cowardly way to go. The real challenge is forward.

For a guy to hate Keepers and Glyphs and Prophecies to keep it going after destroying them all is a total contradiction. And no, he cannot remake them in his own image, because there is nothing to work with.

ToMegaTherion

12-17-2009, 12:53 AM

A prequel doesn't mean either a less skilled Garrett or no lockpicking, actually.

Vae

12-17-2009, 07:09 AM

You could have an open world city where young Garrett would have to stay alive as a street rat with a hunger meter as his primary nemesis, driving him to desperate measures on a daily basis.

I can see it now...young Garrett, scrounging the streets of the City, beggin' and cuttin' purses just to stay alive day after day, running from the guards and hiding in the sewers.

The objective would be to stay alive for a year until that fateful day arrives with the Keepers, without getting killed by the guards or by starving to death......and it could be called THIEF 4: "HUNGRY!"

esme

12-17-2009, 11:04 AM

or grand theft urchin

...street urchin

.......I'll get my coat

Namdrol

12-17-2009, 11:28 AM

Food Raider
Hidden and Hungry
Assassins Cream

...Esme, wait for me, I think I'd better come with you...

Pieter888

12-17-2009, 02:58 PM

Esme, you never fail to put a nice grin on my face :thumb:

thunderchild

12-17-2009, 08:39 PM

lets just have 2 campaigns where you can play as the kid for one and garrett for the next so the game has more replay value and you can satisfy both sides of this discussion. the kid should be used for the easier campaign designed for the newcomers and garrett for the returning gamers. and may i ask for the multiplay ability cause that would be awesome (little difficult but awesome)

Vae

12-17-2009, 08:49 PM

That's cute...:)

jtr7

12-17-2009, 09:27 PM

you can satisfy both sides of this discussion.

You wouldn't dare say that if you knew what the other side keeps saying over and over and over and over and over... You've pretty much gave it away you don't know what the other side of the discussion is, only that it's not what you want.

EM's making one Thief game, not two, not three. One. I know which of the three I want to bear the label of "Thief 4". You dissatisfy all of us if you have the one small team making three games in a total of two years, all called "Thief 4".

I want a proper Thief game, not a game about a guy and/or girl with weapons stealing stuff, and not an online melee combat game.

ClashWho

12-18-2009, 02:13 PM

A prequel means a less-skilled Garrett, no lockpicking, no overarching plot that can stand up to the trilogy, and making Garrett just as awesome as in the trilogy means Garrett's arc is undercut.

There's no reason he can't be every bit as skilled as he is in The Dark Project. I don't know where you're getting the idea that there wouldn't be any lockpicking. A prequel could be a fascinating story. He wouldn't be saving the universe, but that doesn't mean the tale can't be every bit as compelling. James Bond, Indiana Jones, Batman, and so on, have all had prequel tales told with great success. I see no reason Garrett would be an exception.

It also seems the cowardly way to go. The real challenge is forward.

Perhaps, but the first three Thief games have a definitive arc. Things seemed to come full circle and there seemed to be closure at the end of Deadly Shadows. An inventive tale of a younger Garrett in a pre-Mechanist, pre-Fall of the Keepers, pre-Return of the Trickster world, could be excellent.

jtr7

12-18-2009, 05:27 PM

Garrett had no lockpicks before he went to Farkus's. The lockpicks he purchased were a big deal to him and expensive.

The major theme of Balance came full circle, nothing else, and it spanned centuries. It is not a cycle that completes a circuit in a single lifetime. The City is now Balanced, and we've never seen it that way. Garrett now has no ancient Prophecies imposing on him. Let's move forward into the new era, shall we? I know it's hard to not resurrect the dead favorite things, but the corpse of the Glyphs and Prophecies have only just cooled, and Garrett's arc has only reached the zenith. What can Garrett now do without the Keepers and unbalanced Factions putting him at the fulcrum-point of forces that threaten to tear The City apart, when all three of those forces are now where they need to be? I'd like to see Act I of Thief 4, showing Garrett living his dream, for once, before he finds he still cannot escape his purpose even if

I don't care that a game could be made and that it would be a good game, I want a Thief game that also happens to be a good game or greater. Save the backstory to TDP for another medium, not as the main game. There's no major shifting of the weights in the pans during that time. The Factions are only wobbling but not dangerously unbalanced yet. Garrett knows much less at that time, and is not being manipulated to save the Balance or The City.

Any player familiar with the trilogy would have to be willing to adjust to lesser skills, cheaper equipment, and other natural changes for a character who was not a Master Thief right away, but had to build up the reputation, contacts, and learn more about the specific needs of his chosen profession. He was superstitious then, too, so we would be dealing with his Lucky Hand of Glory and good luck coins and wishing for luck as he gained skills and confidence on the road to becoming a master thief. It wasn't until the events of TDP that he stopped being superstitious.

His friend Basso was the master lockpicker, and still had better skills than Garrett at the beginning of TMA. Only fanon made from whole cloth can explain why he had no lockpicks for the first 3 missions of TDP/Gold. He spent a lot of money for his set (On a side note, it's a mistake that Garrett didn't take all his money back from the murdered Farkus, and that there was no money in Farkus Functionals at all). He didn't upgrade to better lockpicks...he had none. The briefing even lingers over the lockpicks like Garrett just got something he'd been hoping for for years. But anyway, he went into a fortified manor and a prison without lockpicks. For whatever reason, coincidence or not, the sequence of events has Garrett less skilled before Basso missions than after. Seems odd that Garrett didn't carry lockpicks to a mansion job if he had them, especially when it meant that some doors would be inaccessible to him because of it. Another fanon possibility is that Garrett was told by his informants that keys were easy to acquire, and that no doors worth opening had no key he couldn't pluck off a belt, desk, or hook.

Loup

12-19-2009, 09:54 AM

I'm with jtr7 about moving forward instead of a prequel. I'm not sure about the timespan between when Garrett leaves the keepers and Bafford's but there is quite little space to work with. I'm sure you could get a storyline out of it. But I'm not sure it would be enough for a whole game. Possible antagonists? Well maybe, but why do that when going forward would mean so much more space and time to work with. Specially since EM are free to develope a whole new plot. And hey, Garrett is free to do what he actually want to do. The question should be if EM will let Garrett pursue his own goals, which would mean stealing enough to retire. Or will they let him get dragged into something because of some new unfolding events?

Platinumoxicity

12-19-2009, 11:01 AM

Garrett had no lockpicks before he went to Farkus's.

...And Farkus was under the "protection" of a warden, just like all other high-quality hardware dealers in the City, and the lockpicks were incredibly expensive only because Farkus had to manufacture them secretly and sell them "from under the counter" to Garrett because Garrett isn't part of a guild, and the wardens aren't happy about their merchants selling to independents like him. That's also most likely the reason why all the equipment is pretty expensive.

ed the thief

12-19-2009, 12:33 PM

new here, I read bits of this thread but it was sooo loong so I apologize if this has been ranted about.

The cutscene at the end of DS was about Garrett, as it was in Dark project.. the last cutscene wasn't about the little girl, nor did Garrett say "we need people like you" or "come with me and we will change your life" yada yada.... the scene in DS was about his character and how he has become his mentor..

and yeah, like what I have seen mentioned here already.. the last thing we need is Eidos to take a female character and exploit her as it usually happens.. Thief has to be one of the very few non-gender specific games I've actually enjoyed.

I would not buy this game if they take away Garrett or his selfishness... I like thief for it's "loneliness" i guess.

If they want to involve females in games more.. make a new game! Don't change our beloved Thief.

ClashWho

12-19-2009, 06:31 PM

Platinumoxicity

12-20-2009, 04:21 AM

the scene in DS was about his character and how he has become his mentor.
Who? Garrett? who's "mentor"? Garrett is his own mentor?

Rid.dick was great in Pitch Black and Escape from Butcher Bay when he was a selfish, murderous sociopath. After he started caring about the survival of other people and started talking solely using one-liners in TCoR and Assault on Dark Athena he became just an everyday main character and it sucked.

Loup

12-20-2009, 01:14 PM

the scene in DS was about his character and how he has become his mentor.

Read jtr7 earlier post on this link:
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1232255&postcount=570

jtr7

12-20-2009, 05:46 PM

Once again, Garrett had a hundred Keepers in various specialty positions that trained him for a decade. This wasn't just school or a stealth training camp. Garrett learned stuff no human being knows in reality because they required Glyphs magic for protection, teaching, revealing, observing, and the Glyphs are no more. Garrett was taught by a powerful secret institution for a decade. Garrett is one man, without Glyphs or facilities, or books, and he's not old and worn out. He's just been warming up during the trilogy, and now he has what he always wanted. He's not a father figure, his generally irresponsible and selfish, lacking empathy until circumstances pass a threshold where death is occurring. He has a habit of barely taking care of his own needs. The child is a massive hindrance to a man like this, and to our game. I want good Thief, not just a good game with the label. Training the child is training an enemy. Training the child is training competition. Training the child will keep him from finally being the Thief he fought the whole trilogy to be. He's gotten his wish. What's coming is too important to focus on the one child. Training her gets in the way of good Thief. His world has changed on a fundamental level, and the challenges to come are best explored through Garrett alone. Bothering with the girl will bog the story the hell down, and it's cheap writing.

massimilianogoi

12-20-2009, 10:07 PM

hundred?? :scratch:

Platinumoxicity

12-21-2009, 12:44 AM

hundred?? :scratch:

Pardon him for deliberately underestimating the numbers of keepers. A 100 guys probably isn't nearly enough.

jtr7

12-21-2009, 01:19 AM

Yep. An entire, Citywide organization, Mass'. I was being arbitrary but not unrealistic.

But for illustration purposes, out of all the Keepers, there are some who are teachers, and each "node" of the Compound has several that we've seen each. How many teachers have we had in our educations? Before getting out of high school and joining the US Navy, I've had about 70 in just the school system. In the Navy, during my 18th year alone, I had another dozen. This of course only includes those who were teachers by profession or position, not any of the thousands of people I've learned from. I did not include counselors, pastors, family, friends, friends' families, and all the others that taught me important and life-changing things no other being did, and also those things that are common to all people. As for Garrett, there were the Keepers who cooked, cleaned, organized, and handled the daily living of the members of the Order, when they weren't being Keepers with their noses in books or out in The City. So yeah, Garrett's time on the streets, his decade with the Keepers, his allies like Basso...Garrett is only one man and he's not going to spend even half his waking hours teaching the child how to steal better, or feed, clothe, and protect her, let alone try to teach her everything--everything that can be taught without Glyphs and Prophecies.

Anyway, Garrett was essentially raised by a village, Garrett is not a one-man village. I reiterate, if Garrett cares about the child, Basso and Jenivere would be better to help her out.

SummerGirl

12-21-2009, 03:18 AM

What would Thief be without Garrett? Besides, there are two important things to note about TDS: First, just because there was a girl at the end, it doesn't mean that she - or anyone - will be Garrett's apprentice. Second, just because it was implied that Garrett returned the Chalice and the Paw back to their respective owners/guardians to prevent any further future calamities, I guess, it does not mean he has turned good for good - pardon the pun. Oh, and but the way, what is this talk about a bleedin' prequel? That didn't work for Star Wars or X-Men or anything else, so let's just bury the idea right now and move on with a sequel, thank you very much.

jtr7

12-21-2009, 03:51 AM

Giving back the Chalice and Paw not only preserves the Balance, but the Hammers and Pagans know he stole them, plus, those two artifacts weren't loot, anyway. So yeah, he still has more selfish reasons than noble ones, and we know he likes to deny his good side whenever he can justify it. :p Also, the Paw and Chalice, we are told, are now fundamentally changed. It's possible they have no sentience or magic abilities anymore, depending on how we wish to interpret the word "annihilation".

Garrett is the easy and most wonderful-sounding choice for the proto-agonist, if we have a choice. If Garrett is back, not just Stephen Russell's vocal stylings, but the whole character we know and love, then it's a wonderful thing. If it's not Garrett, the character needs to be very interesting regardless of that major change in direction. It would, of course, be awesome if a new character was in no way disappointing for not being Garrett. It would free the writers to start from scratch and build a whole new Thief, and while that is obviously the relatively easy path, they still have to strike the right notes. I still pity EM for taking on a monumental task, and I hope we can find the end product enjoyable, too.

Herr_Garrett

12-21-2009, 04:13 AM

Mind you, Garrett also has exceptional powers - not abilities or anything, but raw knowledge, which is not bookish Keeper lore, detached from reality, but field experience. From sneaking through the whole City he probably knows more of it (in the present, and on the level of the canny), than any of the Keepers ever did. He also is a master thief, his expertise lies in these twain "departments". Garrett is, in a sense, a very limited person. Apart from things he's involved with, he cannot possibly have any knowledge of other stuff. It's not as if he wanted it, moreover.

He finally has everything at his disposal: the Keepers are gone (his sole reminders of "duty" and "caring" - in fact most likely the only people who knew [about] him), the City will be - if it isn't already - in turmoil, and, as we all know, nothing like chaos for a good thief.

Pampering Picatchu-eyed beggar girls won't get him anywhere, and it's against his nature, his skills, his situation. He doesn't care about people. He has no friends, only associates. He steals from poor and rich alike. He views women solely as sexual objects from what we know, and maybe as necks to steal necklaces from. He's a totally surplus person - a parasite on the society in the truest sense - he chose this path deliberately. His only skill (that he would put to use) and use lies in saving the world - and in very small ways smoothing out the inequities between rich and poor. Yes, Garrett has some human qualities, but they would never lead him to actively helping the aforementioned destitute girl. He's against injustice, but that's coupled with a cynicism which make him act only on very rare occasions, and usually against gross injustice or cruelty. Never would he help a beggar - for gods' sakes, he steals from them!!

He should be setting out for hoarding fat loot, while incidentally saving the world.

jtr7

12-21-2009, 04:25 AM

I kept hoping Garrett would know more of The City than any Keeper, but he keeps talking about The City like he doesn't. Input is extremely faster than output of that knowledge. Garrett spent most of his post-Keeper time trying to forget their knowledge. This Master-must-take-Apprentice crap is not the code of a loner and is against his ultimate goals, which he has not yet attained--just one of them--and again, Thief is not historically accurate by any means, and not beholden to our history or any culture but its own.

There is so much potential for a good new Thief story, perfectly faithful while exploring a Faction-Balanced, Keeper-less City, which has not existed in centuries, but if only a good writer/writing team will tackle it and sink everything into the big challenge of sticking 100% to what came before. There are several big enemies that have not had their chance, and the combined strength of the Balanced Factions (working separately and even unknowingly together) would be the means of protecting The City with Garrett as the improvising spearhead, as usual, gathering info from multiple sources, as usual, but no longer being manipulated by Keepers according to Prophecies, yet they who stay in The City have field experience and knowledge of people and places, and the Pagans, Mages, and other fortune-tellers (like Carmen Cantata, whom really helped Garrett a lot) can still provide Glyph-less prophecies. All the devices are there, the themes, just shifted away or morphed.

Loup

12-21-2009, 06:22 AM

What would Thief be without Garrett? Besides, there are two important things to note about TDS: First, just because there was a girl at the end, it doesn't mean that she - or anyone - will be Garrett's apprentice.

You should check some earlier pages of this thread. the argument about her is dropped and then there is a new person (with the idea that just because she is in the cutscene she has some kind of meaning) brings it up again. I would really like to live in one of those peoples shoes for a few minutes. Man, the world must be so different. I mean the hobos in the TDP ending was in the cutscene im sure they should be important to in the later games.

It all comes down to the feeling: :mad2:

Let us leave the taffing girl and see if we can come up with something which is relevant for the thread.

I love The City and all which is thief and I would love to get more of it. But without Garrett? That would be like watching twin peaks without agent Cooper, playing Torment without the nameless one, playing system shock without Shodan. Sure we get the universe but we would loose both that which the earlier games gameplay and story heavily relies upon. And that is Garrett. What my point is that Garrett is central for the experience it self.

If we would have another protagonist, would it really gratify the gameplay it self? Would it feel ok to do that which we did as Garrett? My opinion is that it won't feel right to have those extraordinary abilites with another protagonist. And possible other characters? One of the keepers? Who and in which way would it give us a good and relevant storyline.

I feel that it all comes down to that you will never get the full experience that is Thief without Garrett.

jtr7

12-21-2009, 05:43 PM

And without Garrett as we've known him, any newcomers to the franchise will be further cut-off from the fans of the trilogy, and the "4" in the title will only imply the order the game was released, not a continuation.

cofiking

02-14-2010, 12:10 AM

xAcerbusx

02-14-2010, 12:26 AM

You say 'depressive', I say 'hard-boiled'.

To me, Thief has always been something of a medieval noir. Which makes Garrett the story's Philip Marlowe / Sam Spade character. No matter who fills the protagonist role, they would need to be jaded, downbeat, but far more ahead of the game than they ever let on. Also... part of what makes the less believable elements of the story 'work' (magic, the undead, curses, hauntings, etc.) is how Garrett interacts with them with his trademark cautious, sardonic skepticism. It sells the concepts to the player, and keeps them from coming across as contrived.

I can't really be 'for' or 'against' the girl at the end of Thief 3 being the main character, because... she isn't actually a character, yet. Just a prop in a throwaway scene meant to convey the irony of Garrett 'becoming the establishment'. If she conveys the same attitudes, she would work in a narrative context. But at that point... you would just have to wonder what the point is of changing characters at all.

jtr7

02-14-2010, 12:34 AM

Dull and uncreative is what a person is who is bored of Garrett and can't see how exciting and radically changed his future can be and thinks changing the protagonist is best. You can't see how much material there is nor how rich the material is. You've outgrown the games and think we should follow your lead. Sorry. Starting a thread with hypocritical insults is bad form and it's all downhill from here. Good luck, taffer.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88498
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88478
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88489
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88884
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88919
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88616

Namdrol

02-14-2010, 12:38 AM

Who do you think enjoys the most in life the one who accepts things as they are and enjoys them or the one who always wants to change everything and never accepts that which is?
I think you are just afraid to accept things as they are so you look for flaws and ways to change everything
Curiouser and curiouser.

Why don't we have it as a woman with massive breasts running around with 2 guns finding lost archaeological artefacts.
I mean this boring old steampunk, gothic, mediaeval, renaissance noir has had its day and who needs another game like that, right?

jtr7

02-14-2010, 12:41 AM

The question should really be, what does cofiking even like about Thief if he's bored with 90% of it to the point of insulting left and right? :(

Yeah, changing the proto's gender, getting rid of any expected story elements, and change The City and the idiom and the ethos and the warring groups to reflect having lost all those elements.

Odyseeos

02-14-2010, 12:47 AM

--Don’t look up, an’ don’t look down
--You have to move, Albert
It’s in the rules.
--Btlfsp. It’s mate-in-sump’n-or-other.
--I ain’t sayin’.
--Dang blast.
--
--Ah’magonnabeatyouup, Pogo!
--
--
--
--Alligators eat ‘possums, yuh know.
--
-- It’s in our natures
--
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--Your move
--

VIKTORIA

02-14-2010, 12:58 AM

Loup

02-14-2010, 04:09 AM

Why do we like garret so much?
Now most of you people are afraid of putting the girl as the main character. Most of you are afraid of a fresh new start for the game and most of you are really dull and uncreative. So now I want to know why most of you so oppressively hold on to Garret as if your whole life and gaming experience depends on him.
What is so unique and attractive about him?Think about it for a while, and don't give me that answer he just is , he makes me feel good answer...
Tell you what I see. I see a depressive, negative self absorbed lowlife.(written in emotion)And he is also cocky funny and sly.Which was all very cool in the 3 games SO FAR. BUT!!!! Honestly I am getting bored of it, I am getting bored of Garrett and his depressive lifestyle and I want a new role in T4.Just ask yourselves could you bare this same old character forever ?Would you like to see him in T6,7 or 8? The same dark moody character? I think not, in the end everything gets dull nothing lasts forever. Well that's what happened to me after I finished TDS. Its time for a change, open your eyes, or give me a damn good reason to force this character in Thief 4!

Is Garrett getting dull? In which way? He is one of the few convincing anti-heroes there is in gaming. Now that the story may open up and take him in countless directions, why would it feel dull to follow him though another game? And as Acerbuser said, what makes him an excellent protagonist is the contrast he gives to the rather extraordinary universe which is thief. Many things would have felt rather cliché if it weren't for the contrast that is Garrett.

If you have something interesting to bring to the table then I'd really like to hear your suggestion of the new character. And don't come dragging with the girl in the ending.
She is a reference to the the beginning of the series. There is nothing, NOTHING which gives a suggestion that she is of relevance. But bare with me here. There is also nothing which makes her a good choice for a new Protagonist. What would make her interesting? And what kind of game would it result in? Following a streetbrats daily struggle for survival?

Should not one of the hobos in the end of TDP be one of the protagonists? It could be a survival game with the awesome "keeping your self warm"-feature. They are as relevant as the girl.