YOUR THOUGHTS & WISHES & SUGGESTIONS for T4 - General Discussion

[mister_riz]

*Moderator Edit*

If you intend to create a list of different aspects for T4, then this is the thread to use. If you create a new thread with a list, it will be merged into here.
If you wish only to discuss one particular aspect of the game, then please check "Keeper Diary" thread to locate a specific topic, and post in there.
This will help keep threads organised so the dev team can read content with speed and ease. Thank you for your cooperation.

**





Thanks EM

Remember we loved Thief for introducing the excellent concept.

We loved Thief 2 for refining it to near perfection (no undead, great story, open spaces, great locations, intelligent mission design).

We didn't love Thief 3 because of its unintuitive city, cramped missions, exploitative elements (please remove climbing gloves and bring back rope arrows), clunky movement and slightly uninspired story.

If you see T2 as your inspiration I guarantee we will love you for it.

GOGOGO!!! :)

[acridrose]

I'd like to see the focus on T1&2 as well (which means no 3rd person!), especially with reference to level design (and colour).
Looking forward to following this project unwrap! Thanks!

[jordan_a]

This is just awesome, long live EM!

[VIKTORIA]

Which of the Thief games was your favourite, which one was your least favourite - and why?
What key feature(s) did you like best about the game series?

Do you hope that T4 will retain these elements, or do you prefer to see something totally new?

[acridrose]

I would love T4 to really regather from its roots, because the level designs in T1&2 were both technically and visually stunning.. I think the most famous (and most loved) is life of the party, and to spend an hour just making our way to angelwatch, and then to see the rest of the mission before us as we stare at that huge building is what we would call the sublime. Garrett himself and a lot of his tools I feel make thief what it is, and to push them to one side would be a great loss.
T3 was a little monochromic..

[Aceyalone7777]

OMG, I Love you SOOOOO much!!!!\

This game is the game of my childhood THE best game EVER created! Thank you so much Eidos for net letting the franchise die. Plz give Thief the tribute it deserves. And count me as TOTALLY in, to be among the first guys that will buy the game when it comes out. If there is a collector's edition, I AM SO GETTING IT!

[dark_angel_7]

I have not played the Thief games yet. (I have a feeling I'll be murdered soon for saying that!) but I hear that Thief 1 & 2 were the best. I say its best to stick to how the originals were rather then the latest one released, in this case DS. Don't forgot that the originals are why everyone loved it and never forget the classic fans and their needs!

[mister_riz]

Thief 2 by far, Looking Glass were genius's for resisting adding much in the way of 'new' stuff, they focused on excellent mission/story design and it made it by far the best game.

No/few undead please.

Thief 3's roamable city was a good idea but was poorly implemented. Either focus on this a very large amount (make it intuitive, I was pretty disgusted at the lack of loot potential and rooftops around the city generally) or if this seems too much revert back to a sequence of missions ala 1 and 2.

[Velecost]

Wow this is so damn awesome guys been waiting for this one. Just hope they keep Garret I heard they may have a new lead character. Hope it isn't true though!

[spyhopping]

I like to try and avoid making pointless posts that don't contribute in any way. But to hell with it:


YAAAAAAY!

[EMCEE]

Master Thief will come back soon! YAHOOOOOOO!!!!)))

[mister_riz]

Wow this is so damn awesome guys been waiting for this one. Just hope they keep Garret I heard they may have a new lead character. Hope it isn't true though!

1. Where have you heard this?

2. They'd be crazy not to have Garrett as the lead, absolutely crazy.

[Specter]

I think there should be traces of the undead in certain places where appropriate. All three games had them at some point. Return to the Cathedral and The Cradle are missions which are still spoken about today. While I am not a huge fan of scary games/movies in general, (they are often quite cliche) they fit with the Thief world and I would not be opposed to their return. Though, it must be said that Eidos Montreal will have some large shoes to fill when building a mission to compete with the two I referenced.

[Gillie]

I loved the roof tops in the first two, and the exploring. There was not enough in TDS or buildings to rob. TDS was good to roam though.

[the resolute girl]

if you could provide a roaming city (that is working as opposed to the one in TDS) BUT place your tightly designed, detailed and flawlessly voiced missions into it, giving the player the most incentive to follow the story and let the surrounding be a tool for make-belief (like the old Mafia game did) it would certainly appreciated.
every mission should be designed about a moral theme/idea, the location/robbery itself, the characters involved and the tools available to your character. Don't forget: limitations often give you more incentive to experiment and make the game seem more "open and free" than any sandbox design can (see NOT: Far Cry2). Replayability comes from those things you don't see and maybe never see in one playthrough (stuff Valve likes to cut which makes their games one-way thrill-rides with almost no lasting appeal). Rebooting a franchise, sticking to its high values and quality AND delivering a blockbuster-sized return for EIDOS....... either you stick with the game how it was and don't even start the THI4F - hip marketing - crap or we can get ready for QTEs.

[mister_riz]

Not so much a problem with the benign apparitions but the zombie's and haunt levels.

OK 'no' undead is going too far but Thief 2 had them for atmospheric/story purposes only and was better for it by a mile.

[Dominus]

the most important must be:



Stephen Russell as Garrett
Eric Brosius for music
Bring back the classic Thief 1 and 2 feel and look, not Thief 3
make The City dark and mysterious, steampunk.
Thief IV not Thi4f
no loading zones, brakes immersion
proper blackjacking and swimable water



more to come

[TheJoker]

I agree with acridrose

Here's my own words though :)

Deadly Shadows had some good stuff brought on from the first two games and some new things that improved the gameplay, even so it wasn't as good as the first two games and that is also what I think the general opinion amongst all Thief-fans is.

So what Eidos should do now is to look closely on what made Thief 1&2 so great.
What I really liked about Thief 1&2 was of course the story, the settings and the atmosphere.
The funny dialogues, all mysterious charachters each having their own story and Garrett; the ultimate protagonist whom Stephen Russel should be doing the voice-acting for. I can't possibly imagine having another voiceactor than him :<

Thief 3 took a step away from the first two games, which wasn't to enjoyed by all us hardcore Thief fans. Don't take an even bigger step trying to make Thief 4 into something that it isn't to gain more buyers of the game. Thief is in my opinion the best game-serie ever created, you got some quite heavy job ahead of you, don't fail us Eidos, give us an adventure we won't forget and not just a lousy followup to squeeze some more money out of this serie :)

[acridrose]

No roamable city unless it is part of a mission on its own (e.g. life of party).. revisiting places never works and developers seem to like you running backwards and forwards in sandbox games- this is not what thief is about :nut: - exploration is a key element.

And Dominus, I agree with everything listed thus far (unless for some reason you edit it, hehe).

[Morphine]

While it's inevitable that new features will be added, I feel that Thief needs to go back to the basics. Putting more emphasis on Garrett stealing to survive, and less emphasis on ANCIENT GODS TRYING TO DESTROY THE WORLD. Some features which I think would be nice to see are:

More of an open world. While the maps in Deadly Shadows were open, and allowed you to travel from location to location, there were still a lot of limitations. Along with the open world, you have the option to enter a large amount of the houses and steal almost everything. (Within reason). The balance the idea that the player can steal everything and sell it for 300000000 million dollars, a weight system, and an advanced AI is introduced. The NPC would notice what is missing, and instead of going "Oh my, my [x] is missing", and continuing along their path, they do something about it. IE, go walk around a radius near their home to see if they can locate anything, talk to the local guards, etc.

The climbing gloves need to be taken out. It was a stupid idea in the first place.

Invisiblity potions need to be taken out.

There should be no option to select a difficulty level at the beginning of the game. The missions should start out easy and get progessively harder. The sub-missions should have a varying degree of difficulty, which is told to Garrett by the fence he recieves the mission from, but indirectly. IE, Very difficult = "Others have tried this one, and their job didn't end so well", etc.

The lockpicking system in Deadly Shadows worked, but needed some improvements. The fact that there was a pattern to each kind of lock, made it possible to open each lock too quickly, and took the fear out of getting caught.

A feature where Garrett and visit a fence and get different jobs. Instead of a strictly linear storyline, during the game you can take a break from the plot and take on smaller sub-missions.

Health potions are fine, but should be scarce and cost a lot more in shops. It would put more emphasis on sneaking.

The only items Garrett should start with are his blackjack and lockpicks. He should have to either steal of buy the rest of them.

There are more features which I think would be nice to see, but I will either edit my post or make a new one later.

[Devijinn]

Thief 2 definitely favourite game of the series :)
The whole atmosphere of the world and the awesomeness of Garrett and the story are the best features of the game (basically almost everything).

Make sure you bring back the hilarious guards and their conversations! ;)

Edit: Also bring back rope arrow! :D

[StalinsGhost]

My favourite game is easily Thief 1. I loved the sense of place all the locations had, and also the intricate plot. The twist after having acquired the Eye is possibly one of the best in any game ever.

Huge, unbroken levels are a must, as are multiple routes in navigating them. What would be nice would be a huge continuous city, though that's probably a lot to ask (or is it in these days of Assassins Creed?)

They've got to bare in mind the events of the previous 3 games. In each, the major factions were losing their power. 4 should deal with the City finding a new order of things, while the old factions continually scheme to reclaim their position. I'm not actually in favour of a dynamic plot as a lot of games are trying. I'd love to see them go for a linear narrative set in an unlinear world.

[acridrose]

Huge, unbroken levels are a must, as are multiple routes in navigating them. What would be nice would be a huge continuous city, though that's probably a lot to ask (or is it in these days of Assassins Creed?)



lol, assassins creed is NOT an exemplar world for thief IV. I agree with uninterrupted exploration (big mistake in T3 were the loading bars), but sandbox games will get you trapped in one world with one design with lots of backtracking. Thief was great because it took you to extremities in each mission (Constantine's mansion, anyone?? :lol:) - so I vote mission-by-mission.

[Velecost]

Much of what has already been said. Rooftops were a blast and I agree with all of Dominus's points especially about Stephen Russel as Garrett please do not change the main character. Thief 1 and 2 were awesome 3 was too but the tech took away from it by the loading and it felt a bit clunky. So wishlist would be

Keep Stephen Russel as Garrett and as main character
Free roaming city done right
SECRETS and a tally at the end of the mission for secrets/treasures found/stealth rating (really liked this added replayability)
Mature storyline with depth that we can debate on the forums after with some ambiguity
Improved combat that is engaging with ability to make guards look like fools while escaping like pulling their shirt over their head or knocking their helmets down so they cannot see etc
Backstory log in a journal type book to give it that cool feel
A journal that keeps track of sidequests, movies, story, characters, items, enemies (bestiary) to really give the world more detail and depth
Achievements/Trophies that add replayability to the levels
Perhaps a morality system based on decisions
Sidequests
Ability to upgrade weapons/equipment/abilities with treasure stolen

Just threw those ideas out there to play around with, more to come... Also I hope they don't try anything too new and innovative, keep the characters/story and the key aspects we love.

[Phaid]

Thief 2 was definitely the best. It perfected the formula. Excellent story, brilliant atmosphere, HUGE, non-linear, varied missions.

Deadly Shadows had some interesting ideas, but was hampered by the whole "city" idea - the idea good in itself, but poorly implemented.

Wishlist?
Garrett as main character or people will burn down Eidos HQ.
Non-linear, long missions.
Steampunk atmosphere.
Rope arrows.
An obligatory "scary" level. The Haunted Cathedral from Thief and Shalebridge Cradle from Deadly Shadows are imaginative, scary, unsettling, simply EXCELLENT missions.
Clever story. No more "ancient evil boo hoo".

[pwyll]

I like Thief 3. In fact it is my favorite game. Thief 2 is great indeed but the dynamic shadows and detailed objects in Thief 3 are something that I adore. Thief 1 is good but I didn't like the cave levels and running from monsters. I really enjoy staying in shadows and observing unsuspecting humans. I feel like some dark god of shadows. Total ghost. I like beating the game without killing or making unconscious people. I like sneaking, crawling, stalking. To be unsuspected and undetected.

I would like dogs in this game. Dogs which can smell you. It will be challenging.

I would like if the player could change its point of view - first or third person. Thief 3 in this case was awesome because I prefer 3rd person view but in some cases 1st was preferable.

Know that not only the good graphics make one game a piece of art. The gameplay and the storyline are so important! That's why Thief is my favorite game, not Assassin's Creed.

Good luck, Eidos! I believe you will make a real masterpiece in the game industry. I hope you do, I pray you do.

[Gorephazer]

The achievements thing is a good idea. It would be nice if ghosting was actually implemented into the game so that you would have somewhat of an official scorecard to show off.

[Barsavian]

Thief 2 is best.

Sprawling non linear maps of Thief 2 are a must along with the wonderfully done story movies between levels.

The only thing that would really be needed is an ability to climg up/down buildings. Anything more or less would be a hinderance.

[geekytom]

You have to be careful with the "open worldness" otherwise you could just end up with Assassin's Creed.

Keep it first person and keep each level story driven. I want atmosphere, story, tension and fear.

Thief is still one of the only games to have truly scared me.

[geekytom]

Improved combat that is engaging with ability to make guards look like fools while escaping like pulling their shirt over their head or knocking their helmets down so they cannot see etc

Love that idea!

[acridrose]

You have to be careful with the "open worldness" otherwise you could just end up with Assassin's Creed.

Keep it first person and keep each level story driven. I want atmosphere, story, tension and fear.

Thief is still one of the only games to have truly scared me.

100% agreed


A journal that keeps track of sidequests, movies, story, characters, items, enemies
Perhaps a morality system based on decisions

Your ideas made me throw up... this isn't pokémon :mad2:.

[Durinda D'Bry]

I like Thief 3. In fact it is my favorite game. Thief 2 is great indeed but...

I think many fans (almost all) will disagree with you. Thief 3 was good with its plot and many game moments - it is still great Thief game in sense - but too bad from technical characteristic point of view - too slow even for modern for that time hardware and buggy game engine, limited level space, drunky camera movement, not finished ideas in design etc. Even it uses modern technologies and better graphics it was failed in implementation.

[Thievingtaffer]

Thief 3 was a quality game, but it was certainly not up to par with the first two. The game felt unfinished, and everything was just awkward. But as the whole, it was a fine addition to aspects like Lore (methinks) and it got the Thief brand out there a little bit more. I enjoyed it, and I think it's metascore of 85 is about right. That said, I hope the new game returns to the direction of the first two.

[TheJoe]

We didn't like Thief 3?

[Larington]

1. Where have you heard this?

2. They'd be crazy not to have Garrett as the lead, absolutely crazy.

The ending of Thief 3 (Link to vid below) kind of implies that the torch is going to get passed down to a successor. As long as the characterisations that made Garrett pass on to the new character, I won't mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQPh43xvnI8

Still, early days yet, she could just end up being an incidental character, or she gets arrogant and steals something she shouldn't and Garrett (As player) ends up having to track her down.

Could go either way.

[DarthEnder]

^ I agree with that. The tiny levels cut up by load screens and the not great attempt to make a persistent city overworld...no.

Essentially, the release of Assassin't Creed had me very exited about the possibilities of a new Thief game, but also a little worried.

The huge, sprawling cities with no loading screens had my quite excited at the prospect of levels built around entire estates with no loading screens that actually looked fantastic. But on the flipside, it made me worried that a Thief 4 would take the worst part of Thief 3, the open city, and try and do it again. Sure, a big open world city would not suck as bad done in the AC style than the T3 style, but it's just nothing I want, or need from a Thief game. I much prefer missions each taking place in their own levels, but I want those levels to be huge, with lots to explore, something T3 couldn't really do.

Other things about AC that I think would work great in Thief are the obvious awesome running and climbing around the world, and the combat.

I shouldn't have to explain how awesome the climbing up window sills and jumping over rooftops would rock in Thief.

Now, granted, AC's combat where you fight 10 guys at a time wouldn't do for Thief, but that's not because of the combat system(which is great), it's because of the AI. Fighting a guy and deflecting and counterattacking based on rythm works great. And when you go up against a squad of guys, they form up in a big circle around you? Makes sense so far. Unfortunately they then do the inexplicable thing of attacking you one at a time, which makes taking on groups trivial. They need to make it so that when one bad guy takes a swing and you deflect the attack and go in for the counter, the guy standing behind you lunges in and stabs you in the back. Essentially making it so that combat against one guard is easy, two is pretty hard, and 3 or more becomes almost impossible.

Of course then there's the way AC's gameplay works the worst for Thief, and it happens to be the most important aspect, the Stealth. AC's "hide in crowds in broad daylight" approach is the exact opposite kind of stealth to the "hide in the shadows" approach of Thief, and I shouldn't have to tell you which one is infinitely better.

[TazmanianD]

Thief 3 was a quality game, but it was certainly not up to par with the first two. The game felt unfinished, and everything was just awkward. But as the whole, it was a fine addition to aspects like Lore (methinks) and it got the Thief brand out there a little bit more. I enjoyed it, and I think it's metascore of 85 is about right. That said, I hope the new game returns to the direction of the first two.
I'll agree with that. Thief 3 was a true Thief game if not quite as good as the original two. The game was pretty whacked out-of-the-box for the PC but fortunately was tweakable enough to get passed a lot of annoying "features" (*cough* loot glint) and a bad UI.

[FenPhoenix]

I love the original games (Thief 2 is my favourite), and I also think that Thief 3 did get a lot of things right. Really, I'm open to new stuff as long as it keeps to the spirit of Thief, both in a style/story sense and also a gameplay sense. Personally I feel that it's vitally important to keep the proper balance of realism and fun. Sounds obvious but lots of games these days have absurd features that are in there to be "cool" or to show how closely they can imitate reality, but are no fun at all. I know some people might disagree with me on this, but to me Thief is not about lockpicking or loot collecting or all the little things a thief does, but it's about the broader experience of playing the game, going through the story, exploring, being immersed in a fantastic world. The little things are of course important to the experience - but for example, to click on loot and have it disappear into my bag of infinite weightless holding, or to pick a lock by just standing there and holding a button, those things are enough to make me believe that I really am a thief doing those things, yet they are simplified enough so that they don't intrude into the experience. Awesomely, Thief 3 didn't really succumb to most of that stuff (the lockpicking was more involved but it was alright; not sure if I would want to go any further with it to be honest though) - but just saying. Any new features need to be considered on the merits of whether they're genuinely fun and fit with the experience, and NOT simply whether they're technically impressive or realistic.

I actually kind of see some potential in some of the stuff in Thief 3. I think a free-roaming city could work, but it would absolutely have to be done right and with loving care and focus. I also think the idea of actually going to your fences was kinda neat. Dunno what you could do with that, but just throwin' things out there :P

Anyway. Thief 4 needs a great story, immersive setting, rope arrows, and swimmable water. :P Other than that, just keep on with the funny AI convos and remarks, get Stephen Russell back and you'll be alright :)

Oh, one more thing, about achievements. Could somebody explain more precisely what sort of thing they would be? The only thought going round and round in my head right now is "SUPER BLACKJACKALATOR! 100 POINTS" :(

[Necros]

Which of the Thief games was your favourite, which one was your least favourite - and why?
My favourite was Thief 2 because it was an upgrade from Thief 1 in every way, also it had the Life of the Party mission. :) Least favourite? I can't say that to either T1 or T3, I liked both of them very much.
What key feature(s) did you liked best about the game series?
Sneaking in the shadows, the awesome story and dialogue, the cutscenes and the mission briefings, Stephen Russell and the other voice actors, lockpicking, pickpocketing, missions on the rooftops, smart - creative level design, the atmosphere, mainly human enemies, the 3 factions, the fences, non-lethal gameplay, don't hate me but the switching between 1st and 3rd person was good too in T3 (but only if 1st person is the default and you are never forced to switch - no context sensitive stuff and leaning is a must too). And I'm sure I've missed a few more things.
Do you hope that T4 will retain these elements, or do you prefer to see something totally new?
Yes, bring back to classical gameplay and setting, no need to change everything. If EM wants to do that, call the game something else.

[TSFroggy]

Thief 2 was the best game in the series. Much more "Thief-y" than the other two, much darker, grittier and a hundred times more immersive.

Get that straight now, Eidos Montreal. IMMERSIVE. That is the key word for this franchise. Thief 3, though I don't know why, took it straight out of there.

[Barsavian]

1. Thief is not about the little things a thief does

2.going through the story, exploring, being immersed in a fantastic world.


3.Anyway. Thief 4 needs a great story, immersive setting, rope arrows, and swimmable water. :P Other than that, just keep on with the funny AI convos and remarks, get Stephen Russell back and you'll be alright :)


1.dohohoho

2. this is good

3.yes

[Thievingtaffer]

I would say Thief: The Dark Project but I liked the extra missions in Thief Gold so much that I'll have to say Thief Gold is my favorite. I really like the level design: the vastness, and the atmosphere. Something about those early missions conveys to me a sense of crisp air, and cool temperatures. I 'feel' those early missions more than anything else. But don't forget the better levels of Deadly Shadows either. Overlook Manse and The Museum had fine level design as well. However, I'd love to see Thief 4 return to it's roots and go for the older style of play (get rid of useless 3rd person). I can't really describe the allure of the first 2 games, but they just 'feel' to me, better.

[Grimmy]

I agree that Thief 2 was the best one, the introduction to the new era of metal, with all its new NPC's suchs as mechanical beasts and watchers and this steampunk sort of feeling was really cool, I preferred this than Thief 1 ghosts/haunts/apes and stuff much more. Of course there should be a Pagan fraction mentioned in the new plot, but without all the old 'wild forest' stuff, more like Constantine's mansion feel, if you get me? Some sort of creepiness with ambient lightning and music.

[chagnampra]

I would have to say that Thief: The Dark Project was my favourite Thief game. It was so rich in atmosphere and tension. It was also laced with HORROR, something which I feel is an intrinsic part of the Thief universe. The level 'Return to the Haunted Cathedral' is a prime example of this. Also, 'Break from Cragscleft Prison' is similarly incredible. There are too many good moments in too many great levels to pick a favourite, but these are two of mine.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1236/thiefhauntedcathedralsm.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2683/thiefhauntedcathedral.jpg

xx:eek:

[UrUkUs]

my absolutely wish is, that Eric Brosius makes ambient's for T4! Just can't get outta my head "The Cradle" ambient, it's so awesome!

[Thievingtaffer]

my absolutely wish is, that Eric Brosius makes ambient's for T4! Just can't get outta my head "The Cradle" ambient, it's so awesome!
Nothing beats Overlook Manse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IfttUuCac0) (Or Seaside Manor as it was called before they officially released it). That is amazing ambiance.

[Vlad27145]

Thief 2 as the best in the series. It had an artsy vibe to it still far superior to most games, while also being extremely fun to play. I personally want more of that.

[UrUkUs]

Nothing beats Overlook Manse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IfttUuCac0) (Or Seaside Manor as it was called before they officially released it). That is amazing ambiance.

agreed, this track is awesome too, but Cradles ambient is UNREAL, makes u think you are somewhere in another dimension lol :p

[acridrose]

Nothing beats Overlook Manse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IfttUuCac0) (Or Seaside Manor as it was called before they officially released it). That is amazing ambiance.

Agreed, but you can't beat that original ambiance from thief 1 that all the old-skoolers love: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUx0rYLdcVw&feature=related - 0:09+, that build up of synth is mesmerising!

[chagnampra]

Agreed, but you can't beat that original ambiance from thief 1 that all the old-skoolers love: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUx0rYLdcVw&feature=related - 0:09+, that build up of synth is mesmerising!


Agreed - lulls you into some sort of weird intensity
:nut:

Awesome

[TheJoker]

Nothing beats Overlook Manse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IfttUuCac0) (Or Seaside Manor as it was called before they officially released it). That is amazing ambiance.

I have to agree. I was thinking of exactly the same. The silent piano in the background really sets the mood in that mission, there's something depressing about it which really makes the atmosphere perfect

[HellKittyDan]

The Metal Age was definitely my favourite, and I didn't like that ISA mostly removed the Victorian influence in favour of a straight medieval style.

I'm not particularly fond of caves and catacombs, at least not missions set entirely in such areas. I much prefer the thievery aspect rather than Indiana Jones stuff. I prefer mansions and museums and the like, roaming the city streets and rooftops. Wouldn't mind seeing a huge country estate.

[Gabriel]

Damn, hearing the old Thief soundtracks takes me back...

I liked TDP and T2 best (I know, big surprise). They were just so intriguing, especially the first time around playing through the missions. Looking back, Thief TDP actually feels to me more like a (successful) experiment, where Thief 2 feels like TDP, but a lot more complete and just pushed very close to perfection. I liked Thief 3 as well, but probably because I was hungry for another Thief game after playing the original two over and over again. I did like the feel of a few missions in T3 (the Cradle, the Overlook Manor come to mind), but overall it just felt unfinished and unpolished.

If I were to choose a favorite out of the three, I'd go with Thief 1. It just has a special flavor that is unforgettable. For the least favorite, I'd say Thief 3, mostly because it felt rushed. It could have been a great game, IF they wouldn't have segmented the city into all these loading zones, if they would have kept the water swimmable (one of the things in the first two that added to the immersion - no pun intended), I didn't like the climbing gloves (the rope arrow or the vine arrow would have been fine) etc.

For Thief 4, in no specific order (important ones in bold) :) :


I would really like to see an up-to-date Thief 1/2 from a graphics standpoint, maybe keep the gameplay as FPS (no 3rd person view)

Concentrate on the story and gameplay
Keep the setting as it's been in the past three games (steampunk). Thief in modern setting is not Thief.
Keep Garett as the main character (he is the heart of the game)
Bring back rope/vine arrows, swimmable water
If you'll be releasing T4 on multiple platforms, don't let the game suffer because of the port to the secondary platform (i.e. when porting from Xbox to PC)
I say keep the zombies, haunts, but take out the spiders. The little bastards make my skin crawl every time I meet them in the game (especially the sounds they make) :eek:
Bring back the secret areas of the original games. They make the game much more interesting
Create innovative/weird/heavily atmospheric levels like Constantine's manor, The Cradle, Overlook manor, Return to the Cathedral
Please tell me that the final title won't be THI4F...:(
Keep the artistic style of the cutscenes/briefing scenes (loved both the static ones in T1/T2 and the T3 ones)
I liked the edible food in T1/T2 :o
No sparkles on loot like in T3
Perhaps rethink the ladder attachment mechanics to make it harder to fall off a building while trying to grab the ladder
I rather liked the lockpick mechanics of T3. Would like to see something similar in T4...


There's more, but this is all I could come up with from the top of my head :)

Basically, the recipe for Thief 4 should be 70% Thief1/2 specific ideas/gameplay/weapons/etc. + 20% Thief 3 + 10% innovation.

Hope this makes sense.

Just my two cents' worth.

[Vladimyre]

I just have fun stealing stuff, anything that's not nailed down, and make everything blackjack able nothing like sneaksieing up on someone and giving them a good wack.

[Abelo]

First of all, let me set my point of view.

Thi4f will NOT be a clone of the first one; times have changed and market has changed. We all love the first two Thieves over Dark Shadows, but we all have to admit multiplatform is the future (the present, in fact) and titles like BioShock and Fallout 3 have showed the world that slightly casualizing old formulas is not an evil deed, and results in quality and economic viability as long as it is done right, with quality in mind instead of sales. That said, this is my small list of Do's and Dont's, for a sucessful Thi4f and it could very much be applied to DX3 too.

- DOs / WINING ATTITUDE

· Remake the core idea of the originals.
This means design should be approached from the very basis (pretty much the path taken in movies like Batman Begins or Casino Royale) - Thief was conceived like some kind of "burglar simulator", and most of its fun was based on the player's tactical superiority vs his physical weakness. Its final design and minor gameplay tweaks are not key factors, and were based on technological limits. Many of its small cool things would be weird in a modern game. Redesigning the core idea from scratch avoids taking old solutions for modern problems.

· Atmosphere is paramount in Thief; build on it.
Making the player "feel" that atmospere is not only about working on the plot and a bunch of readable notes, but about feeling you are a thief in that enormous city. Thief really looked like it wanted to put the player in a huge world; just technology wasn't up to the task. I'm not talking about making a GTA, but the small levels with frequent load times in Deadly Shadows dramatically took the player out of the world. No one gives a damn about how good the plot and factions are designed if he gets dragged out of the world. Player's "body awareness" was a promising step forward in Thief: DS, but they never developed it gameplay-wise.

· IA
Sounds obvious, but I never felt Thief: DS had built on it. The guards acting believably is key to feeling like a burglar yourself. That means that "gamey" things like "4 awareness modes" are easily spotted by the gamer, making him able to predict and exploit his enemy's behavior (humans are at least slightly unpredictable) were ok for a experimental 1998 game, but would feel "weird" in a realistic-looking 2010 AAA title.

· Periodically add gameplay features
Many modern games abuse of having a fun formula and multiplying it by the number of levels; thus the game resulting repetitive. Add a small twist, even if it is merely visual, at least once per level, so the game always feels vibrant and unexpected. Yoshi's Island is a lesson of game design in that matter.

· Exploit the Uncanny Valley
Much of the coolness in many designs, such as cameras with cherub faces, were based in an intelligent mix of realistic or beautiful features with industrial, unaesthetic stuff, resulting in a weird, uncomfortable, disturbing world.

· Humans are more fun to kill than undead or creatures
Robots are disturbing enough, and ok as long as they are not too much.

· Sound
Feeling the sound buzz surrounding you from the very Main Menu even in the load times wins. Being absolutely, deeply immerse in the atmosphere from the very second the your character appears after the loading is one of the most impressive achievements in Thief. Recently, Dead Space has built very well on it too.

DONTs / LOSING IDEAS

· Derivative design, looking to the Thief mirror for answers to every question.

· Inventories and complex HUDs should be approached with tons of caution. They are kinda necessary, but take the player out of the atmosphere. Full inventory screens like Thief: DS should be forbidden and shot on sight.

· I could live with a character other than Garrett, but Larry Lovage has showed that comercially-focused, generic characters are not loved by the player. We want his bunch of imperfections. Anyway, Garrett is neat enough, why change him.

· Load times, as short as possible, and very specially, as FEW as possible.

· Perfecting hand to hand combat is wrong idea. Having some fun with it could actually discourage the player from being subtle. Keep it clumsy and unfun to a certain extent.

· Never try to be more casual for the sake of sales. I feel it was one of the biggest flaws in Deadly Shadows. Try to be casual for the sake of good gameplay design and fun, but keeping the layers of depth - Blizzard style. Sales are a consequence.

[Nate]

Hehe, I always hated how you could take out a guard right next to his buddy, and they wouldn't notice or care...not even a 'Huh? Benny, are you going to the bathroom again? Where did you go?'.

[Buccura]

While Thief 3 (Screw calling it Thief DS) is the lesser of the series, there are some things about it I really liked, and would like to see vastly improved upon.

The two things that come to mind is the city hub concept. I liked the idea of being able to freely do some thieving between missions, and even pick up a few small side quests. If they can make the city feel bigger, and have more significant side quests, that would be awesome.

Another thing I liked is the faction system, being able to get in favor with Hammers or Pagans, though of course by actually doing deeds for them rather than just shooting moss arrows at cobble stones or killing bugs and make a loud explosion.

Anything else from Thief 3 you'd like to see carried over and improved upon?

[Danie1]

Agreed, but you can't beat that original ambiance from thief 1 that all the old-skoolers love: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUx0rYLdcVw&feature=related - 0:09+, that build up of synth is mesmerising!

Too true! That style is so unique, it's hard to find it in any other game. The ending music in Thief's final cut scene is also top notch.

To throw in what I'd like, it's everything that was lost in Thief DS:
-Rope arrows
-Swimmable water
-Simple lockpicking scheme that doesn't break immersion
-Simple HUD
-Lighting scheme reminiscent of the first two Thief games
-Remove "body awareness"

[cobakka]

Thief 2 by far, Looking Glass were genius's for resisting adding much in the way of 'new' stuff, they focused on excellent mission/story design and it made it by far the best game.

No/few undead please.

Thief 3's roamable city was a good idea but was poorly implemented. Either focus on this a very large amount (make it intuitive, I was pretty disgusted at the lack of loot potential and rooftops around the city generally) or if this seems too much revert back to a sequence of missions ala 1 and 2.

I loved Thief 2 and all but I think it was definitely lacking in places that scared the crap out of me. I think technology and fantasy both have their places in the Thief world and one should not be excluded or made to be just a small small part because a few people don't like them.

I'll say there should definitely be more non-monster/whatever levels, but a few would not be a bad thing!

Return to the Cathedral and The Cradle were two of the scariest levels ive played in any game ever and I would very much miss that horror if it got excluded.



I say keep the zombies, haunts, but take out the spiders. The little bastards make my skin crawl every time I meet them in the game (especially the sounds they make) :eek:


That's the point! Keep the spiders! I want my skin to crawl dammit.

[Vlad27145]

I agree completely with all except the reference to Fallout 3... that was really a low blow to a beloved franchise for me :( . The 3 things I mostly would like the team to focus on are AI, atmosphere (which includes sound) and story. These 3 little things are absolutely seminal for a Thief game.

[TheJoker]

I pretty much agreee with most of it

[nicked]

first two Thieves over Dark Shadows,

· Humans are more fun to kill


Well, those two wince-inducing points of credibility-reduction aside, you make some good points.

[GmanPro]

Its pretty much a given that there will be at some point a scary mission. Its the signature of all Thief games. Although I suppose Thief 2 didn't really actually have one ... just minor scary sequences :scratch:

The 360 and PS3 can at least handle large levels this time around, so that much has me feeling optimistic.

Oh and combat should definitely stay clumsy and not fun. We need to discourage the player from getting caught after all. Though I do miss the old school sword. Maybe a short sword this time?

Finally, T3 really broke the immersion for me when I had to run around the mission gathering the final 3% of loot or the final 'special loot'. How is Garrett (me) supposed to know that there is some loot remaining and that its mean value is exactly 3% of the total!?!? That was just dumb about T3

[Princess_Frosty]

DO

Model Thief 4 around Thief 2
Make sure all CORRECT PC display aspect ratios are supported (4:3, 5:3 and 16:10)
Make sure FoV is set to a more common PC FoV like 90 degrees for 4:3 and 103 degrees for 16:10
Make sure widescreen is horz+ and not vert- (www.widescreengamingforum.com if you need to learn how to do it correctly)
Pay attention to the hardcore PC thief fans who love the original :)

DON'T

Have 3rd person
Have wall grab
Have obnoxious object highlighting
Have obnoxious arrow trails
Have loot glint
Have awkward 1st person movement (built around 3rd person)

Basically make Thief2 again with modern graphics, stick to the same design philosophies that was used for the original titles and if necessary build a completely seperate set of game mechanics for the console versions, in fact just dump the console versions all together, Thief is not a game the average console user has the skill to play :P

[Princess_Frosty]

oops doublepost, please delete

[Orest Reinn]

I prefer no sword at all. No thief (especially master thief) would use weapon heavier than a dagger.

[Princess_Frosty]

Easily Thief 2, the original was somewhat of flawed masterpiece, and the developers actually listened to the feedback and Thief 2 was pretty much flawless, both games were great for their times.

They need to basically make an extension of Thief 2 and bring it to a modern engine, I'd be most pleased with the exact same game elements from Thief 2 in the way the abilities and gameplay works, but with newer graphics.

If they inheret any of the console stink from Thief3 I'll be incredibly dissapointed.

[Orest Reinn]

I loved Metal Age especially for its city missions. Dark Project horror style was not thief-like enough. Too little shadow, I would say.

[ByLaw]

It is clear that 1&2 were significantly better than 3(DS). Look at the comments and you will see that this was due largely to a) 1&2 having such great, well-designed levels that left a lot of exploration and "open" problem solving, but were all self-contained, and b) 3 trying the "free-roam" approach and missing horribly. This is instructive.

While an open-world game sounds great in this day and age, I think it sacrifices too much in the way of detail and tries to do too much for a game like Thief. The feeling that made Thief so memorable and beloved was the immediacy of the levels, crouching silently in a dark corner for 30 seconds or longer, literally holding our breath with Garrett, hoping that a snooping, suspicious guard with sword raised wouldn't see us - I've never had another game pull that off, and it's what makes us love Thief. This is not dependent upon a huge world, but upon intelligent AI and smartly-crafted levels that provide just the right amount of light/dark, split seconds without a patrol in which to cross a lit room, that one moss arrow for the impossibly-noisy tile floor, etc. Eidos, you don't need a huge "free-roam" world to pull this off, just intelligent, exciting, memorable levels that can be self-contained. Please don't waste efforts making this a free-roam game - spend the time crafting memorable levels the ratchet up the tension like 1&2, and we will love you for it.

[jhook]

Damn, hearing the old Thief soundtracks takes me back...

I liked TDP and T2 best (I know, big surprise). They were just so intriguing, especially the first time around playing through the missions. Looking back, Thief TDP actually feels to me more like a (successful) experiment, where Thief 2 feels like TDP, but a lot more complete and just pushed very close to perfection. I liked Thief 3 as well, but probably because I was hungry for another Thief game after playing the original two over and over again. I did like the feel of a few missions in T3 (the Cradle, the Overlook Manor come to mind), but overall it just felt unfinished and unpolished.

If I were to choose a favorite out of the three, I'd go with Thief 1. It just has a special flavor that is unforgettable. For the least favorite, I'd say Thief 3, mostly because it felt rushed. It could have been a great game, IF they wouldn't have segmented the city into all these loading zones, if they would have kept the water swimmable (one of the things in the first two that added to the immersion - no pun intended), I didn't like the climbing gloves (the rope arrow or the vine arrow would have been fine) etc.

For Thief 4, in no specific order (important ones in bold) :) :


I would really like to see an up-to-date Thief 1/2 from a graphics standpoint, maybe keep the gameplay as FPS (no 3rd person view)

Concentrate on the story and gameplay
Keep the setting as it's been in the past three games (steampunk). Thief in modern setting is not Thief.
Keep Garett as the main character (he is the heart of the game)
Bring back rope/vine arrows, swimmable water
If you'll be releasing T4 on multiple platforms, don't let the game suffer because of the port to the secondary platform (i.e. when porting from Xbox to PC)
I say keep the zombies, haunts, but take out the spiders. The little bastards make my skin crawl every time I meet them in the game (especially the sounds they make) :eek:
Bring back the secret areas of the original games. They make the game much more interesting
Create innovative/weird/heavily atmospheric levels like Constantine's manor, The Cradle, Overlook manor, Return to the Cathedral
Please tell me that the final title won't be THI4F...:(
Keep the artistic style of the cutscenes/briefing scenes (loved both the static ones in T1/T2 and the T3 ones)
I liked the edible food in T1/T2 :o
No sparkles on loot like in T3
Perhaps rethink the ladder attachment mechanics to make it harder to fall off a building while trying to grab the ladder
I rather liked the lockpick mechanics of T3. Would like to see something similar in T4...


There's more, but this is all I could come up with from the top of my head :)

Basically, the recipe for Thief 4 should be 70% Thief1/2 specific ideas/gameplay/weapons/etc. + 20% Thief 3 + 10% innovation.

Hope this makes sense.

Just my two cents' worth.

Great stuff, but might I add....................

Hey Everyone,
I was here awhile back making a few suggestions. I believe I stated a few things on the direction of Garret and where the "Deadly Shadows" left off. I look at the moment in Thief where it has captured my imagination. I find that the story line of Garret has matured into an evolution for the game engine and technique. Someone mentioned "gore" to be implimented. That's not in the Thief tradition IMHO. I think gore has it's place though. Certain points might need gore to illustrate the situation (an evil pagan ritual or a murderous monster that left his mark, ect.). I examine what made the "Thief" series soo unique. Thief incorporates the art of vurtual "stealth" and a different game play away from 1st person shooters. The object is to loot, plunder or otherwise trick your way through the game. This sets Thief apart from other 1st person games.

What I would like to see in the next installment of Thief;
a: More audio trickery....
When I was playing Deadly Shadows, the episode "The Craddle" scared the sh$$ out of me when I heard it. Running around in a haunted insane asylum with Pin Head trying to kill you, realy got me going. Now, Creative has generated the next step in audio imersion, the X-Fi! Now, the next Thief should be more scarry and imersive to listen to, as well as visually stunning.
b: More stealth weaponry and thieving abilities....
Take a look back at the history of the art of thieving. From the dark ages to Asian phylosiphy, such as the Ninja and there use of stealth and weaponry.
c: Interactive and imersive story line.....
Garret is at the center of the story, but now, has a young acolyte. Have the next Thief utilize other charactors throught the game. The acolyte could guard an area or scout ahead, or do other directed tasks. Also, Garrett has made allies, from the Hammerites to the Pagans, other charactors can interact with Garrett throughout his quests. This also opens up a multi-player possibility.
d: The City is a center of the Thief story, but there should be other areas for Garrett to explore....
Other cities and travels along the country side could be interesting. Maby, finding new weapons and/or new abilities from other towns/areas.

Just a few ideas that the Dev's may already be on to. What say you all to these ideas. I always thought that the stealth actions and sounds of Thief were one of the vital keys to it's success. The next Thief should be even more imersive and stunning. Can't wait!

(this is an exert from the Eidos forums)

[jhook]

I loved Thief 2 and all but I think it was definitely lacking in places that scared the crap out of me. I think technology and fantasy both have their places in the Thief world and one should not be excluded or made to be just a small small part because a few people don't like them.

I'll say there should definitely be more non-monster/whatever levels, but a few would not be a bad thing!

Return to the Cathedral and The Cradle were two of the scariest levels ive played in any game ever and I would very much miss that horror if it got excluded.




That's the point! Keep the spiders! I want my skin to crawl dammit.

I am with you on all of that! T3 was great actually. It lacked the punch of T1 and T2, but it had advanced in 1 major area "audio trickery"! The "Craddle" episode in T3 had some of the scariest $hit I have ever played. All of that can now be improved upon dramatically! T4 should play off of that. Make some ares dark and freak'en scary!

[GmanPro]

Yes, bring back to classical gameplay and setting, no need to change everything. If EM wants to do that, call the game something else.

YES! Thank you! I just with Bethesda had the sense to rename their "Fallout" game.

It feels like we went straight out of the Golden Age of Gaming, right into the Great Depression of Gaming.

[arkhanari]

Keep Garret as the main character. No bloody young character with Garret only being a side character.
Have Stephen Russel do the voice acting.
No Thief a la Assassin's creed.
Large singular maps - no roaming world.
No climbing gloves
Keep it steam punk
Keep the cutscenes in old Thief style
Eric Brosius for ambient music
Don't shaft PC owners by porting a crappy XBOX version that gives us loading times.
Focus on the first person view.
Make it more stealthy than Thief DS - go back to the roots of the series.
Rope arrows.
A new Life of the Party mission
Please tell me it's not going to be called Thi4f god dammit.
My favourite is Thief 2 - it realised what was good with Thief and just improved upon that.

[Princess_Frosty]

Keep Garret as the main character. No bloody young character with Garret only being a side character.
Have Stephen Russel do the voice acting.
No Thief a la Assassin's creed.
Large singular maps - no roaming world.
No climbing gloves
Keep it steam punk
Keep the cutscenes in old Thief style
Eric Brosius for ambient music
Don't shaft PC owners by porting a crappy XBOX version that gives us loading times.
Focus on the first person view.
Make it more stealthy than Thief DS - go back to the roots of the series.
Rope arrows.
A new Life of the Party mission
Please tell me it's not going to be called Thi4f god dammit.
My favourite is Thief 2 - it realised what was good with Thief and just improved upon that.


I love you <3

[Platinumoxicity]

An important thing that might easily be unnoticed:

In T1 and T2 there were lots of secrets and even additional objectives that could only be discovered by reading books and letters scattered around the levels, and then piecing together the clues. Bring back the vague clues. Some of the secrets were very intriguing and it was very satisfying when you finally found them. (I still haven't gotten into this so-called secret room that Brother Renault talks about in "Return to the Cathedral" :( )

[Princess_Frosty]

Yeah this was great.

In the life of the party mission where you had to break in to wosshisface's office on the top floor, in the floor just below there was an incredibly well hidden leaver inside a little broom closet that actually brought down his whole security system, I can't remember if you had to search for it manually or put together clues but either way it was masterful, you could avoid all the alarms and speedy escape and get one up on the git :)

[Warcus]

New Stuff for Part 4:
- The possibility to push guards over a railing or an edge :lmao:


Old stuff needed for Part 4:
- rope arrows
- swimmable water
- no loading-zones!
- no 3rd person vew!
- zombies and ghosts (all thos spooky things :eek:)
- a sword (no dagger)
- the ability to cut a courtain into two peaces

[Gabriel]

Keep Garret as the main character. No bloody young character with Garret only being a side character.
Have Stephen Russel do the voice acting.
Large singular maps - no roaming world.
Keep it steam punk
Keep the cutscenes in old Thief style
Eric Brosius for ambient music
Make it more stealthy than Thief DS - go back to the roots of the series.
Rope arrows.
A new Life of the Party mission
Please tell me it's not going to be called Thi4f god dammit.
My favourite is Thief 2 - it realised what was good with Thief and just improved upon that.


Got to agree with all of your points there, just bolded the ones I think are most important in my opinion. It's important for EM to go back to the basics of the first two games with T4 and improve that. We all have to agree that the "basics" were pretty damn solid, they just need to replicate this and bring it up to date somehow, in terms of graphics engine and whatnot.

You better do a good job EM! If there's one thing you can't complain about, that would be fan support for this game :D

[maddermadcat]

to spend an hour just making our way to angelwatch

Only?

I wasted a saturday on the Thief II demo, making sure I've done everything there is to do. :P

[acridrose]

Only?

I wasted a saturday on the Thief II demo, making sure I've done everything there is to do. :P

haha, I assure you I've clocked thousands of hours overall on that level... it's having that huge precursor to the actual mission (and then the actual mission itself in all its non-linear glory) that made that level the greatest.

[Vernichtung]

I personally enjoyed the whole freeroaming, but the engine let it down, so I'd like to see that done better, and maybe have the large singular missions that others talk about, but find a way to incorporate free roaming into the middle. Also, make being caught more consequential. Make the AI better, so that when you got caught you really felt like you had to get away or you were gonna die or get hurt.

[Gabriel]

That's the point! Keep the spiders! I want my skin to crawl dammit.

Actually, you're right. As much as I hate the spiders and dread meeting them in the game (because even the "little" ones are giants!), it felt pretty good to escape them or kill them and see them belly up with their legs all together in a bunch, hehe.

I wouldn't mind if they did keep the spiders (after all, they're part of the Thief world), that was in fact a minor "request" of mine, however I do hope that they manage to capture the feel of the previous Thief games. It's a very special blend of elements that makes Thief what it is and I just want the makers to get it right :)

So, I'm for the spiders after all :nut:

Has anybody experienced slow-downs when replying to this forum using Firefox? Mine just keeps "loading" the page forever and I'm forced to use IE to post.. :hmm:

[Abelo]

Well, those two wince-inducing points of credibility-reduction aside, you make some good points.
I thought those were nearly universal consensus (specially the one about Deadly Shadows being worse than the other two), but you may be right, perhaps it's just a subjective opinion.

DO

Make sure all CORRECT PC display aspect ratios are supported (4:3, 5:3 and 16:10)
Make sure FoV is set to a more common PC FoV like 90 degrees for 4:3 and 103 degrees for 16:10
Make sure widescreen is horz+ and not vert- (www.widescreengamingforum.com if you need to learn how to do it correctly)

DON'T

Have 3rd person
Have wall grab
Have obnoxious object highlighting
Have obnoxious arrow trails
Have loot glint


Well, that kind of stuff is the kind of thing that can be tweaked in the last month. Certainly not major design problems.

Pay attention to the hardcore PC thief fans who love the original :)
Being a hardcore fan myself, I would take it with care from a game developer standpoint. Hardcore fans will never agree with each other, and listen to everything they (we) say wouldn't be a wise solution. Anyway, they can get nice ideas.

Basically make Thief2 again with modern graphics
Awful way of approaching a game design, in my opinion; any design in fact. One thing are personal tastes and a very different one is good design decisions. By now you should have assumed that way of design will hardly happen again in videogaming. DX3 will NOT be like DX but with better graphics, same with Starbreeze's Syndicate remake, with Beyond Good and Evil 2, and nearly every high-budget sequel to come. Besides, if they had only to work on graphics, it would say very little about them as designers.

That just won't happen stick to the same design philosophies that was used for the original titles and if necessary build a completely seperate set of game mechanics for the console versions, in fact just dump the console versions all together, Thief is not a game the average console user has the skill to play :P
PC-exclusive gaming was mostly killed by piracy. Time to asume it, be happy if we get a nice conversion, or dance in joy if our version has the same importance in their multiplatform pipeline as the console ones.

Model Thief 4 around Thief 2
Very personal opinion, and they could never satisfy every personal opinion.

[maddermadcat]

Well, those two wince-inducing points of credibility-reduction aside, you make some good points.

The Yoshi's Island reference and "IA" made me quite unhappy as well.

[maddermadcat]

My biggest wish is that you guys will make this for PC first and consoles second.

I know it won't happen, but I felt I had to at least throw it out there.

[DarthEnder]

Personally, I loved wall hugging in DS. Granted, DS overdid it and being in wallhug mode made the character essentially undetectable via tactile senses, but the idea of hugging the wall in a pitch dark hallway to try and allow a guard to pass you by appealed to me.


Conversely though, more guards need light sources. If part of a guards patrol route is pitch black, that guard should be carrying a lantern or something. It doesn't make sense for it to be anything else. What kind of guard is gonna try and patrol an area with zero visibility? Bullseye lanterns that light up just in front of the guards would be best.

[NewHorizon]

I hold Thief 1 and 2 in equal standing. Thief Deadly Shadows...I don't think I'll play it again.

[NewHorizon]

· Load times, as short as possible, and very specially, as FEW as possible.


Ok...that's just not logical. If you want large, expansive missions that you only have to load once...you're going to have to wait for awhile. If you want them to load 'lickity split' they're going to be chopped up. Take your pick.

With our large levels in Dark Mod, they can take awhile to load on older machines, but once they're loaded...reloads only take a matter of seconds since everything is already in memory. It's a fair trade.

[Danie1]

Abelo, while Princess Frosty's ideas are all throw backs to Thief II, it's pretty reflective of the displeasure at the changes attempted in Thief DS.

In the end, people want an immersive game with spellbinding atmosphere and compelling story. Inventory, user interface, weaponry, and how the player can interact with the world should be built around that. Thief DS had broken that by adding lots of cool trinkets and giveing the player opportunity to use them.

[DarthEnder]

Thief 2 is my favorite.

Wishlist? Thief's storylines, stealth, level design, and equipment combined with Assassin's Creed's graphics, melee combat, and jumping/climbing.

And bring back steam golems.

[Princess_Frosty]

Its not purely personal opinion, I think the general consensus was that Thief2 was the best of the 3, improved on the 1st and way better than the 3rd.

[Vlad27145]

Thief 2 is my favorite.

Wishlist? Thief's storylines, stealth, level design, and equipment combined with Assassin's Creed's graphics, melee combat, and jumping/climbing.

And bring back steam golems.

Why?!? I'm with the others for the "clunky" combat. Or making it more streamlined but have the enemies be extremely tough. Remember that while Garret is a Master Thief, thus very agile, the enemies are generally armored, better armed and trained for combat.

[jhook]

I hold Thief 1 and 2 in equal standing. Thief Deadly Shadows...I don't think I'll play it again.

Hey NH!

How does the DMod look thus far? From what I see, she is almost done? Anyway, T3 had some good parts and a few things I really liked. For me, the ending to T3 really sucked. The story was ok, but a lot of problems occured inbetween missions. You can't say that there is nothing you like about T3?

[ZenAbra]

Er, not really. Most long-time members of TTLG will probably cite the original Dark Project as their favorite Thief and I believe most polls have borne that out.

The more dark & gritty atmosphere and the more coherent story are reasons cited to support liking TDP over TMA.

Either way, it is purely personal opinion.

[maddermadcat]

I honestly think the Builder's Children have to be the coolest enemies I've ever seen in any game. Mechanists kick ass, even if they are a little Bond, as some people put it.

[ToMegaTherion]

I think all the Thief games were really good, I don't want to get into the debate about which one was best (I think that's pointless, lots of people will go for each game), and trying to identify all the good stuff and bad stuff from each game is something to do on a rainy afternoon, but right now I want to talk about one element from one mission in The Metal Age that I think could be a useful starting point for some good fun ideas.

In one of the missions, Framed!, the player was restricted in the number of kills and KOs allowed. On Expert this was zero, but I don't want to talk about that, I don't think that is the right approach. What we have on Normal and Hard is a system that encourages the player to be as stealthy as possible, while not forcing them to abandon all of their offensive toys. The player has to target his takedowns well, eliminating the most irritatingly placed guards, and also those that catch him. Unlike pretty much every other mission, removing "trivial" guards is not the way forwards but you are still allowed to deal with the really annoying ones.

I think this sort of mechanic is a good way to get lazy players out of their comfort zone without being too annoying. I did do some ghosting in the old games, but I found it to be too restrictive. Similarly, on Expert, I always wondered why Garrett would prefer to die than to shoot someone with a fire arrow.

With increasingly dynamism possible in video games these days, I think this idea could be further developed beyond being a simple cap enforced in the mission objectives and greeted by a failure if passed. Killing people, being caught stealing, and so on, could have repercussions beyond the current mission. If you deal out too much damage to a bunch of guards, it may be more likely that they will try to pursue the villain responsible in the future. Many possibilities seem potentially fruitful.

Anyway, I just wanted to mention how much I liked this disappointingly under-used idea and think it is well worth considering in one form or another in the future.

[Garrett21]

My fave is Thief gold even with the undead best feature to me is when i jump from a shadow to blackjack someone since it's in first person i get a visual representation in my head of what that looked like so the immersion is what i most enjoy the thrill of picking that lock ,quietly approaching someone then pickpocketing them i didnt care for the cityscape portion of Thief Deadly Shadows i just liked the way missions were presented and carried out in the originals..ohh and please dump the climbing gloves and bring back the rope arrow please.

[MistaDamajah]

DO:
- keep the dark, gothic, steampunk settings and visuals
- ability to climb, rappel but perhaps being able to scale buildings without ropes (via ledges, ornaments, wall reliefs etc.)
- keep the style music reminiscent from previous games
- have spirits and spectres, that level from the original game where you were at the old cathedral scared the ****ins out of me... but it was awesome

DON'T:
- bring in fantasy elements such as the burroks or whatever those dinosaur like things were in the first game and the self propelled fireballs etc
- make it exclusively 3rd person (if it goes to consoles as well this is almost completely unavoidable I understand), but most people would appreciate the option of 1st or 3rd

thats all for now...

[Garrett21]

take away the dagger return the sword and make this missions ghostable in TDS ive had missions where i Ko or Kill 0 people yet at the end i get nailed for 2 bodies discovered maybe make a tag on the npc's that the player must break in order to get credit for the bodies also Garrett is not a skilled fighter capable yes skilled no so return him to the way he was in Thief gold and The metal age as it says in the missions on expert you're a thief not a murderer i want a thief not an assassin.

[Garrett21]

having side missions because you found special loot would be neat and expand the game hidden objectives like on the 1st mission and several others in Thief2

[Gan Xodos]

I think that thief 3 was one of the best games ever for it's story/plot (and the way story elements where shown to the player) and for it's atmosphere and sound (I'll kill you if you don't put in the menu sounds and the right guard ramblings and monster hisses and differences between hammerite and pagan speech and so on)

also I think climbing should be addressed. something kind of like assassins' creed but a lot less acrobatic (hey garret is a real man, not a monkey). Still it'd be nice to be able to jump from a ledge to another and grab on by the ends of your fingers and be able to scale every roof. (I expect the city to feel more open if you can go on every roof, so to maintain this feeling remember to make tall city walls everywhere :P)

btw I totally agree with the first post

[Crypto]

I prefer no sword at all. No thief (especially master thief) would use weapon heavier than a dagger.

I agree about the practicality of a dagger, but the sword is sort of iconic of noble thieves (Robin Hood). Were this a movie or novel I'd stick with a dagger, but games, I think, deserve a bit more artistic license.

Though I'd love to see a difficult but fleshed-out close combat system revolving around the dagger—i.e., one involving getting in close, wrestling, grappling, the sort of stuff that goes on in the Bourne movies (sorry, I couldn't resist the reference; I just love them)—I wouldn't mind a sword so long as it's on the short side (unless they're gonna go for all the marbles and give us a foldout buster sword!). Again—I feel the need to mention this in all my posts regarding weaponry—I wouldn't want a complex, attention-hogging combat system to suck the core stealth gameplay into oblivion. No one wants another Devil May Cry.

Hmm, two parenthetical remarks in this one. One of them is even laced within a dashed fragment. Go me!

[Gan Xodos]

I'm with the idea of having only a dagger through and through

I'm not for kung-fu or boxing or stuff like that, it's not stealthy enough. It'd be nice to be able to slit someones throat from behind though (oh and smothering sleeping people :D)

[Abelo]

Ok...that's just not logical. If you want large, expansive missions that you only have to load once...you're going to have to wait for awhile. If you want them to load 'lickity split' they're going to be chopped up. Take your pick.
Oh sorry, maybe I didn't make my point clear.

Fewer load times is way better than short load times for a game like Thief in which you want the player as hooked to the atmosphere as possible. The tradeoff for the load time lenght would be a bit of graphical quality, but you don't really need that much of a tradeoff if the engine memory management is good and the game is optimized enough. I just commented on it because load times are more important in Thi4f than, say, an RTS or an average shooter for its heavy reliance on inmersiveness.

[CurtX]

Fave game: TDP
Fave features: stealthing (duh), exceptional sound, Stephen Russell, ambiance, steampunk, utility arrows (especially rope and water), blackjack, cutscenes, mission briefing cutscenes, ambiguous maps, challenge, suspense, tension, frights, laughs, and of course TAFFING!

[Gan Xodos]

well look at oblivion/fallout 3, it has massive levels and it has one of the shortest loading times in any game. It's definitely possible if u have the engine for it...
(no loading time at all would be even better constantly loading areas without letting you know it, like many modern games today-> far cry 2, oblivion/fallout3 exteriors, prince of persia...)

[Espion]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. Before I jump into the discussion I'd just like to say I'm so happy to be posting in a forum about a sequel to one of my most favourite game series (sans DS - sorry, but that was largely a fail.) I never thought I'd be posting in the forums for a new sequel! A big thanks to the people responsible and I wish you all the best of luck working on a project which inherently comes with a lot of baggage (trying to please us all AND everybody else ;) )

Now, to the discussion.

First of all, let me set my point of view.

Thi4f will NOT be a clone of the first one;

I have to disagree with that. When you boil it down to the basic gameplay there's very little in the original two games that is outdated. I believe that controls should be streamlined a bit to mirror modern concepts of first person control but even then there would only be a few issues.

but we all have to admit multiplatform is the future (the present, in fact)

Agreed, though unless you have good sized teams for each platform it would be best to work on two platforms first, get it done, then work on the third. Since XBox and PC architecture is very similar they would be the logical first choice, then follow up on the PS3 later. Too many games suffer from being forced onto all three at the same time.

titles like BioShock and Fallout 3 have showed the world that slightly casualizing old formulas is not an evil deed

Bad examples if you ask me. Bioshock was entertaining but far too linear and simplified from System Shock. Fallout 3 was an enjoyable Post-apocalyptic RPG but didn't feel like it was a sequel to FO. Not to mention, tediously travelling across barren wasteland, no matter how nice it looks, is still tedious. The original games handled this much better with world maps... My point is that both games changed too much for the sake of style over substance and they became less fun for it.

- DOs / WINING ATTITUDE

· Remake the core idea of the originals.

I guess I agree with this but as I said, I think the basic gameplay of Thief 1 and 2 translates just fine to this generation.

· Atmosphere is paramount in Thief; build on it.

I agree that atmosphere and immersion is important, and I definitely agree that the levels were too small in DS, but to disregard the story is a mistake. That is as much a part of the original games atmosphere as anything else. Also, levels should NOT be linear. Open plan so the player can choose their own route to the objectives, please!

· IA

AI, yeah, definitely needs improving. When I learned how to eploit it in the original games it took the excitement down a notch or two quite drastically.

· Periodically add gameplay features

Something like Yoshi's Island is a bad example. Thief 1 and 2 did this well enough by both introducing new items in the shop and progressively giving the player more money with which to buy items. Enforcing the rate at which the player accquires new equipment instead of rewarding them for their perseverance in getting loot in previous levels would take a lot away from the game.

· Exploit the Uncanny Valley

I don't think style will be an issue so long as they follow the established look of the first games.

· Humans are more fun to kill than undead or creatures

Point 1, Garrett was a thief, not a murderer. Please bring back the "Don't kill anyone" objective on expert mode. It was something that really made beating a level in the first two games mean something on that difficulty level if I couldn't just go shooting everyone with the bow.

Point 2, humans are good opponents but the occasional variety in enemies added something to the first two games. I loved the zombies and the metal slaves. It really added a lot to the game by making me have to think about how I'd avoid them or take them out of the picture.

· Sound

Dude, it's a Thief game. Atmospheric sound is pretty much a given.

DONTs / LOSING IDEAS

· Derivative design, looking to the Thief mirror for answers to every question.

I think the Thief mirror would be a good place to look when making a Thief game. If you're not going to make a follow up to the original games then just give it a different name and don't tread on peoples toes. FO3 is a good example of ignoring the source too much (in the sense of style over substance - not the camera angle before I get labelled as a rabid FO fan :rasp:).

· Inventories and complex HUDs should be approached with tons of caution

I think the way the first two games did this was just fine. Metal gear Solid had a similar system and they've proven quite popular, so I don't see why the good old scrolling on the side can't work again.

· I could live with a character other than Garrett

Hmmm, Garrett is a really integral part of the games. I think it would be too much of a change to lose him.

comercially-focused, generic characters

Oh god, please not another macho skin-head character. Done. To. Death.

Anyway, Garrett is neat enough, why change him.

Exactly.

· Load times, as short as possible, and very specially, as FEW as possible.

I think New Horizon covered this one nicely. What you're asking for there just isn't possible.

· Perfecting hand to hand combat is wrong idea. Keep it clumsy and unfun to a certain extent.

Er... clumsy, yes, unfun... maybe the wrong wording? It should be a bad choice for the player as they'd be horribly mismatched against just about any opponent. You should still feel like you can defend yourself without it being a chore.

· Never try to be more casual for the sake of sales.

Deadly Shadows was a terrible mistake if you ask me. I agree that things will need to be streamlined for console play (and to some extent PC play), but games like Mirror's Edge have proven that it's possible to have complex game mechanics on a console... Albiet with bad collision n all. Fix the collision, and you have a good (if extreme) example of what it could be like to move in the world.



Overall, I'm just saying it wouldn't be as bad an idea as you're suggesting to follow the tracks of the original two games. They have a following for a reason, ya know?

~E

[Dia1]

Overall, I'm just saying it wouldn't be as bad an idea as you're suggesting to follow the tracks of the original two games. They have a following for a reason, ya know?

~E

Seconded! :thumb:

[maddermadcat]

Oh, a don't: that annoying pagan speech. Get rid of it, they didn't sound like apebeasts in TMA, they shouldn't have in TDS either.

[GmanPro]

NOTE: Not really pointed at anyone in particular, just a preemptive strike:

Thief is Thief. Lets leave it at that. If you have some 'crazy cool' idea, then you can go form your own IP and your own Stealth simulator series. There, you could add all of the:


TITS
VIOLENCE
ALTERNATE PROTAGONISTS
REGENERATING HEALTH
STICKY COVER SYSTEMS
MODERN SETTINGS
QUICK TIME EVENTS
VEHICLES
THIRD PERSON CAMERA ANGLES
and MULTIPLAYER GAME MODES


That you want. But do not think that you have any right to throw these things into a Thief game and still call it by the same name.

Formula for success:
Start with Thief 2. Improve the graphics, make up a new story with new supporting characters, and maybe add some new items to Garrett's arsenal. That's it.

Look at Starcraft 2 for example. Blizzard is basically making Starcraft with better graphics, an all new single player campaign(s), and some new units. And that's exactly how it should be.

[Espion]

I'm with the idea of having only a dagger through and through

I'm not for kung-fu or boxing or stuff like that, it's not stealthy enough. It'd be nice to be able to slit someones throat from behind though (oh and smothering sleeping people :D)

The sword was really useful for smashing through things in an emergency like wooden boards or locks. I'd rather they bring it back or go for more of an in between instead of a crappy knife.

[maddermadcat]

Look at Starcraft 2 for example. Blizzard is basically making Starcraft with better graphics, an all new single player campaign(s), and some new units. And that's exactly how it should be.

Off-topic -- am I the only person that thinks everything in SC2 looks chunky, unnecessarily bright and distracting?

[pha]

I'm 100% with you.

[Espion]

well look at oblivion/fallout 3, it has massive levels and it has one of the shortest loading times in any game. It's definitely possible if u have the engine for it...
(no loading time at all would be even better constantly loading areas without letting you know it, like many modern games today-> far cry 2, oblivion/fallout3 exteriors, prince of persia...)

Oblivion and FO3 both have a massive loading time when you first turn on the game. After that it streams areas in dynamically as you go. Also, fast travelling to a location you haven't visited for a while would result in a fairly long load.

[Palmberg]

With you all the way OP :D

[NewUser2]

Formula for success:
Start with Thief 2. Improve the graphics, make up a new story with new supporting characters, and maybe add some new items to Garrett's arsenal. That's it.

+1 Sounds very good! Making everything again in a new eninge will just make this old perfect thief gameplay less "thief".

An uppgradet T2 would be awsome.

[GmanPro]

Off-topic -- am I the only person that thinks everything in SC2 looks chunky, unnecessarily bright and distracting?

Yeah, sorta. I was never in love with the setting or visual style in that game but as of right now SC2 is pretty much the only next gen RTS that is actually an RTS. So for that it has my undying support.

+1 Sounds very good! Making everything again in a new eninge will just make this old perfect thief gameplay less "thief".

An uppgradet T2 would be awsome.

Well, I don't think I'd go that far. Its pretty much a given that EM is going to use the same engine as TRU and DX3.

[theBlackman]

The time frame and environs of TMA are a good place to start. In actuality, the first two missions in TMA are not really related to the story that develops with Truart, Karras, the servants etc. and Karras' madness.

So, except for Basso and company and the raid at the harbor and warehouses, there is ample room for a lengthy adventure that would be in the same relative time of Garrett's life and not cross into TDS or "ruin" the character.

In effect, the plot in TMA is find out what Karras is up to and stop it. The entire game takes place over about a week of Garrett time.

Surely, one week from the life of a character is not the only adventure that is possible without digressing from the main theme. Nor does it require an Einstein to flesh out the possible script of Garrett's life. The FMs extant have proven that. Garrett lives. As a living person his activities and ventures entail a history of YEARS of being GARRETT.

To start at the end of TDS and move into a possible future or "on-going" in the life of, is unnecessary. There are huge gaps in Garrett's life that could be explored without damage to the series.

Why people have to tag a numerical sequence to these things and think that if must always deal with the "Future" of Joe Blow, I'll never understand.

It would have been far better to just go with the titles. Theif: The dark project. Thief: The metal age: Thief: Deadly Shadows, Thief: The sapphire vase, or The wizard of Montreal or whatever. As long as the GAME is new, the time frame need not be.

[ironpants]

Thief 3 utterly butchered the pagan dialect; it's like a horribly comical caricature. Don't just add "bes" to the end of every sentence, it's stupid!

Reading just the pagan flavor text from the TDP briefings will convey more linguistic nuance than in all of Thief 3. Inattention to details like this which are clearly present in the original is inexcusable.

Thief is pervasively imaginative right down to the language, with its inventive dialects and consistently well written readables and overheard conversations. It makes the City real, lively and believable - even with the fantastical elements there is a coherence to it all. Gloss over this and you lose the spirit of Thief!

[Pangalactic]

I remember back in '04 I was really excited when I found out that there was going to be free roaming in between missions in TDS. Like a lot of people, 'Life of the Party' is my favorite mission. I remember playing the Thief 2 demo (my first exposure to the series) and just being completely blown away. As the level began, I just stood there for 30 seconds, taking it all in. The city was HUGE, and full of secrets, nooks, crannies. However when I played the roaming parts in TDS, I was really disappointed because of how confining they were. Suddenly the City felt like the Town (pop. 3,000). I don't think that if the developers of this game have enough time, money, or personnel to make the free roaming parts sprawling enough, interesting enough, full of secrets, and beautiful enough to make you feel like you're in THE CITY..the scope is too big. TDS felt unfinished because the devs tried to do too much and didn't have the time/money to refine it as much as it deserved to be refined. I think they should just stick to a mission by mission game and make the missions as beautiful, non-linear, immersive, and fun as possible.

I hope there's tons of readable journals, books, scrolls, etc, that are just fun, and have little/nothing to do with the game besides adding atmospheric depth.

I loved the dark undertones added by Thief 2's subtle use of the undead. Sometimes I felt like TDP was bashing me over the head with zombies. In TMA you knew the undead were there, but you rarely encountered them, and only did so if you really went deep into the dark corners of the City. Then again, maybe at least one nice scary undead level would be good for old time's sake.

Something about those green flares in TMA just felt cool...

I thought that technology wasn't portayed as well in TDS. I loved how magic and technology interacted in T1 and T2. The streetlights all had light bulbs in them, but then they had glowing orbs of magic energy on top. It was like magic and technology were being forced to work together unwillingly. I also liked the fusion of so many different styles of architecture...medieval, steampunk, Victorian, Industrial Revolution-era.... Again, it added depth and atmosphere that were what made playing Thief so fun for me.

[Peanya]

Just heard about 4 today, and I'm looking forward to it!
Recently, I re-played the first one. Personally, I prefer it more than 2 or 3. I'm near the end of 2, which is close to the first. Something about the gameplay and challenge of the first one is what I prefer. Getting lost in the lost city was frustrating, but I actually like that over an all-to-easy map. The spookiness of the first one too! Granted, the orphanage in 3 was fairly good.
I wish I could narrow it down for my suggestions. Maybe I need to play 3 again and see what I didn't like as much! That'll have to wait til another time though, I'm having too much fun playing Morrowind now - far better than oblivion!

[GmanPro]

My favorite of the series is Thief 2 (obviously). Use it as the mold for Thief 4 and everything should turn out alright. My main wish is for EM to not remove any gameplay element. Its not so bad if they add something dumb, just so long as it doesn't take away from or in any way interferes with the freedom the classic games offered. *cough* regenerating supplies *cough*

[Dia1]

Thief 3 utterly butchered the pagan dialect; it's like a horribly comical caricature. Don't just add "bes" to the end of every sentence, it's stupid!

In truth, I couldn't stand Pagan-speak from the very beginning and TDS just amplified that dislike. Don't quite know why, they just got on my nerves, especially when a Pagan had more than one line in a dialogue. I suppose, for continuity's sake, it would be necessary to include the Pagans, since they did play an important part in TDP. But imo it would be nice if they were limited to the periphery of the game. I think the Keepers, Hammerites, and Mechanists were far more important to the games than the irritating Pagans.

Just mho.

[GmanPro]

Victoria sounded awesome. More pagans should sound like her

[Pipinowns]

Thief Deadly Shadows was my favorite actually. I really LOVE 3rd person games (Max Payne, Hitman, Freedom Fighters), and it really got me into the environment. I really loved the different maps, especially the Kurshok Capital and The Shambridge Cradle.

And no, I didn't play it on a console.

[maddermadcat]

But imo it would be nice if they were limited to the periphery of the game. I think the Keepers, Hammerites, and Mechanists were far more important to the games than the irritating Pagans.

I figured modern pagans didn't sound that weird. Remember that pagan in trace the courier? He sounded off but not irritatingly weird. Viktoria's agent in one of the cutscenes just sounded like a normal guy.

Pagans are very much important -- they stand for chaos, nature, and are one of the greatest sources of creepiness in the game. Without the conflict between chaos and order, technology and nature, it wouldn't be Thief.

[Slither]

Favorite for mechanics: Thief 2. It had larger levels and more refined controls.
Favorite for story: Thief 1. Deliciously dark, frequently slipping into horror with well-done music, ambient sounds, and gothic architecture. Exposing the seemy underside of the lives of nobles was also a nice touch. "A throne room. How pretentious can you get?"

So, Eidos. Thanks for asking. Here are my favorite elements of the series:
- Tight, well organized story
- Episodic missions (great for modders and paced the story into chapters)
- Not at all about combat, but about planning and executing stealth.
- Large levels with plenty of options for attaining an objective
- The occasionaly horror mission. It's good to be afraid, sometimes.
- Gritty Garrett quips, sometimes like they're reading my mind. "It's a long way down."

Please remember this is an anti-FP Shooter game. Trust that folks with consoles can appreciate what we PC gamers have loved for so long -- first-person-only action, looking for treasure rather than have it flash at us from across the room, and reasonably smart AI. Don't kowtow to the focus groups that might say it has to have more action or blood or a "relationship" or simpler level design.

Many of the console gamers of today didn't have the joy of playing The Dark Project brand-new and learning all the new tricks Looking Glass was teaching us. Learning to play a stealth game is what made the Thief series unique and fun... and legendary. It innovated rather than fall into a slogging step with medocre games.

[maddermadcat]

the Kurshok Capital and The Shambridge Cradle.

I cringed harder than I thought was humanly possible.

[GmanPro]

It is still the fourth Thief game in the series, regardless of when it takes place though. I think Thief 4 is just a placeholder name same as Deus Ex 3. But honestly, I wish they'd just leave those numbers on there and maybe add a subtitle after it.

I agree that there is plenty of time that the devs could play around with in between T2 and T3. Everyone recognized Garrett in T3, and he was the most infamous man in the city. He should pull off some crazy jobs in T4 that earn him that fame.

[Pipinowns]

I cringed harder than I thought was humanly possible.

I apologize for having an opinion that is different from yours. I'll try not to make this mistake in the future.

[xXFl4meXx]

Wishlist for T4: Sword please =D & more immersion with factions... :)

[Crypto]

I'm not for kung-fu or boxing or stuff like that, it's not stealthy enough. It'd be nice to be able to slit someones throat from behind though (oh and smothering sleeping people :D)

If you're referring to my half-baked idea, I didn't mean a martial science like boxing so much as the way you'd react if the guard caught you trying to backstab him. It'd turn into an artless grappling match until one of you took a fatal stab or was choked.

[HinDRAncE]

Hello all, i figured i should let my first post to be about the things i hope for this game:

Do's:

1-KEEP THE STEAMPUNK!!!!

i dont really care if the game is set in modern or medieval times, as long as the steampunk setting of the previous thiefs remains. the l33tspeak on the title suggests to me a modern setting, so garret might end up being a l33t h4X0R...i dont really like or dislike that idea, as long as its done correctly.

2-KEEP THE STEALTH!!!!

That was one of the aspects that made thief stand out from any other game. I personally felt very good after playing a level for an hour, getting all the loot and not killing a single person. Of course,i also enjoyed hacking guards into pieces when the need arised to fight one or two smart ass fools.

3-SANDBOX!!!!

I dont know about this one, but i think that computer power has reached a level where we could have a sandbox enviroment with nonlinear missions as well as side missions. I'm not saying that i want a "grand thi4f auto" but sort of a mix between GTA and assasin's creed...which brings me to:

4-PARKOUR!!!!

We all love to see those guys jump over walls and fences and do those neat tricks we would like to do to, but cant due to lack of shape, exess baggage or simply cause we're too lazy. so why not let garret do it for us?

There are many more things i would like to see on the game, but theese 5 are the important ones to me.

Dont's:

1-NO THIRD PERSON!!!!

I'ts ok to switch to third person now and then, but please...please...PLEASE dont make the gameplay third person oriented.

2-DONT GET RID OF THE SIDE MISSIONS!!!!

It would be really boring to just have one single objective on the entire missions and not being able to loot small items here and there.

3-DONT DIMINISH MELEE!!!!

One thing i sort of missed from thief3 was the sword. I sort of got used, but still missed those times on thief 1 when the mission went to hell and i ended up having to fight 5 guards at the same time.

4-DONT LOOSE THE GADGETS!!!!

They made garret become the "medieval james bond", so the more the better :D

5-DONT HIRE THE 3DREALMS STAFF!!!!!!!!!111!!!1!111!!11!11!

PLEEEEAAAAAASEEEE, i want this game soon!!! i hope 6 or so years in the dark means that at least 30% of the work is done...."early development" sounds to me more like "we got a sketchbook with drawings of garrett hanging in different rooftops!" i would like to play this game before i find a mate and raise offspring so please dont take 12 years in development....personally i dont care if the title is "THIEF 4" or "THI4F" as long as it's not "THI4F forever".

Anyway, there's that.

[Necros]

My biggest wish is that you guys will make this for PC first and consoles second.

I know it won't happen, but I felt I had to at least throw it out there.
They are doing that with DX3, so I see no reason why the PC shouldn't be the first platform for Thief 4.

[Ice1019]

First off, I thought this day would never come, but here we all are. Sweet.

I've got some ideas I'd like to share the devs and the community, in the spirit of sussing out just what this sequel should be. These are just personal opinions, so just take it all in stride.

- I think Garrett should be the protagonist. You wouldn't make Metal Gear Solid without Snake, you shouldn't make Thief without Garrett. His personality makes him the definitive narrator for the story of the Thief games, as he is able to maintain objectivity in an environment where political and religious agendas duke it out for supremacy. He's never really on anybody's side but his own, which means the player can see a clearer picture of just what's at stake, and separates Garrett from not just the other people in the City, but from other video game characters. This guy is a thief in trade, a hero only by accident. He's not a "bad" man, but he makes Han Solo look downright polite. And, it goes without saying, Garrett will[I] be voiced by Stephen Russell. It isn't just fan service, really, he just knows how to make Garrett come alive.

- I think the worry over "console vs. PC" is a valid community concern, but we shouldn't let fear of change inhibit the growth of the franchise.

Thief: Deadly Shadows made some missteps, sure, but it definitely had it's perks. An open City was a good idea, they just used a crappy engine that couldn't handle what they wanted. Open world mechanics have come a long way since 2001. Games like Assassin's Creed and GTA4 I think prove that consoles can do things we couldn't dream of eight years ago. I also think graphically while they still lag a little behind, look at games like Gears 2 or Killzone 2 if you need proof that consoles have come a long way, baby.

On the other hand, Thief was born on the PC. First person I think is a big part of the Thief games, not in an intangible "well that's how they did it then so it should stay" way, but because in an FPS perspective, you [I]are Garrett, and a third person perspective means you are just watching him. Also, mouse aim makes the bow all the more effective, and as we all know, the bow isn't just a weapon, it's Garrett's toolbox. Personally, I like thieving from a few inches from the screen, rather than four to six feet, it helps me spot the goodies.

- Steampunk vs. Modern debate is a good one. I think there are merits to both sides of the argument. Personally, I think the Steampunk idea is a little better, because so much of the gameplay revolved around low-tech solutions to problems (water arrows, blackjacking taffers), but also had some sweet high-tech flair to make it original (Viewing Orb, Karras' Children). Part of what made the City so awesome was because it was a a living conflict between the Pagans and the Hammers, a fight between low and high tech literally playing out in the City itself. A modern setting might lose this core vibe. With that said, I think ignoring a potential modern setting just to do service to the fans is a bad idea.

-On that note, Eidos Montreal should drop stuff from the earlier games that doesn't fit. It is not 1998 anymore, and if Thief is going to survive in the 21st century, Eidos needs to constructively innovate, not simply throw a new coat of paint on the whole thing. Blizzard's doing this with Diablo and Starcraft, and I think the results are paying off. Keep the core stuff, don't get me wrong, but I want to see something spectacular and new. If I want the Dark Project or Metal Age, then I'll go play those already-made games.

-Finally, I think the Thi4f thing is neat, but not everybody's gonna like it. But, if you don't like it, DEAL WITH IT. A logo you don't like does not invalidate Eidos Montreal's ability to make a good game, so quit with the lame flame wars about a freaking logo.

Okay, enough yakity-yak from me.

[THIEF]

the most important must be:



Stephen Russell as Garrett
Eric Brosius for music
Bring back the classic Thief 1 and 2 feel and look, not Thief 3
make The City dark and mysterious, steampunk.
Thief IV not Thi4f
no loading zones, brakes immersion
proper blackjacking and swimable water



more to come


Exactly, while loving Thief 1 ++ 2, the 3rd part alienated me. It didn't not feel like THIEF and it's the only game I didn't finish, well I barely played it ( only finished 1 mission or sth :p )

[OnePunchMickey]

Wishlist:

* Big, big levels like T2 and Shadows Of The Metal Age with no poxy load zones.
* Since rendering vegetation has moved on so much, more outdoor, forest-based sneakage.
* Some new factions.
* Something even scarier than The Cradle.
* A whorehouse level. I like whorehouse levels.

[osmosis]

OK, I played Thief when it landed, and it scared the hell out of me. Climbing into crypts, like a thief in the night... thats what made this game great. Thief 2 was also great, but what it lacked was the terrifying moments with the undead, and the crypts were really just not as scary. The additions to the game more than made up for that, it was an improvement for certain, but I missed some of the feelings of the first game. Thief 3 was technically strong, but it strayed even further from the premise; Garrett had a multitude of further options, and really he could take out a lot of people with combat and only snuck around when absolutely necessary (or if the player preferred).

What I'm saying, is play the first game over and over again. Take the best things from THAT game, don't build on the progress of the second and third game. Go back to the roots and make a game that you play a THIEF, not just another FPS where you can also hide.

[Gabriel]

What I'm saying, is play the first game over and over again. Take the best things from THAT game, don't build on the progress of the second and third game. Go back to the roots and make a game that you play a THIEF, not just another FPS where you can also hide.

This. Very well said.

[VIKTORIA]

Yes, we must go back to our 'roots'. :cool:

[_OskaR]

I think that better to discuss it in separate thread.
1. Very big disadvantage of T3 was size of maps. It was too small so guards wasn't alarmed on second part of map. Better to do one big map per mission but if it's impossible, maybe better try to do sth like Oblivion - enemy can get in other part of map with us.
2. Ladders - guards can't use it in T1-T3 :nut: I think it's time to change it. Also enemies should use lifts etc.
3. Shadows - enemy should be able to see it and respond. Maybe leaning too? :nut:
4. Waking up blacjacked enemies after few minutes or by other guards - game will be more interesting.
5. Enemy destroying rope (by torch) :naughty:
6. Ability to step over smaller obstacles (boxes, low walls etc.).
7. :scratch:

[Vlad27145]

take away the dagger return the sword and make this missions ghostable in TDS ive had missions where i Ko or Kill 0 people yet at the end i get nailed for 2 bodies discovered maybe make a tag on the npc's that the player must break in order to get credit for the bodies also Garrett is not a skilled fighter capable yes skilled no so return him to the way he was in Thief gold and The metal age as it says in the missions on expert you're a thief not a murderer i want a thief not an assassin.

This is exactly what I meant earlier. I think some may have been misled by "The Metal Age" subtitle. If you enter a building to steal some stuff and leave an unending trail of bodies behind you, then that's Terminator, not THIEF. Garret was trained to have a chance if he was ever forced to fight, but that wasn't the point, it was always preferable to run.
Plus, the fact he's an effing astounding acrobat doesn't make him a fighter, I don't think Nadia Comaneci was ever able to kick people's arses, even if she was the best gymnast around.

[Aceyalone7777]

1.True. But I prefer just missions for T4
2.Ladders - Must-have (but needs good animation)
Lifts - Must-Have (mods in www.thedarkmod.com have already implemented that feauture)
3.Leaning would be ridiculous
4.Must-have
5.Lol, lame... too Mission Impossible
6.Actually, this was never a problem

[Benvox2]

-Keep the game in the same univerese/time period as the first 3 games (not futuristic or anything!)

-Keep the same awesome dark art direction of the previous games.

-Keep the cool factions of the previous games.

-Bring back the great 2D animated cutscenes from the first 2 games.

:thumb:

[mister_riz]

Leave AI suggestions alone I think. EM will be fully aware the AI can be improved to today's gaming standards and it's not a subject they'll need fan input with.

[Mocke]

I'd like to add my 2 cents (some of this was pointed out earlier in this thread).

There are two distinct elements to why Thief is a cult classic. The narrative and the mechanic.

As for the narrative. Thief had an engaging, smart story, strong characters, a unique, dark steampunk setting and some gritty/dark humor. Please keep that. Furthermore the sepia-colored, narrated briefings, the incomplete hand-drawn maps, everything added to the atmosphere of the game. The guard conversations, the notes left behind by other people, the books, you know, the fluff stuff.

On the other hand, you've got the mechanics. As somebody pointed out, it's not a shooter in which you can hide (like, let's say, rid****). The stealth element is the core of Thief. You should be able to ghost the game, you should be able to finish the game without killing anyone (humans), you should be encouraged to take the non-lethal path (although blackjacking should feature heavyly). Then there are the sprawling, realistic levels. When something is supposed to be a prison it should have a layout of a prison etc. (Maps should be created based on 'logic').

Also, what I really liked about the first games, and what really added to the replayability, was the difficulty levels. It was the first time I played a game, when the difficulty levels were based on something else than just making the enemies tougher. Each difficulty level added new objectives, new trinkets to find, new things to do. I also adored the expert level, which prohibited you from killing anyone - I know, it's not for everyone, but it was just so satisfying and it forced me to rethink my usual tactics and engaged me a lot more.
Then there's the sidemissions themselves. The looting, the varied objectives.

I think the game should stick to the first perspective, as it put's you right into the shoues of a character, and as a result it's more immersive.

One last, controversial thing is the multiplayer. We know games nowdays have to have multiplayer (regardless they need one or not). Well, for those of you, who think a multiplayer would butcher Thief, there's a UT mod called Thievery. It was a smart twist on the formula, pitching thieves against guards ( I encourage you all to check it). Anyway, if you want to make a Thief multiplayer, please make it something like Thievery (no DM please).

[Forcroi]

I definitely agree!!!:)

[Gabriel]

Also, what I really liked about the first games, and what really added to the replayability, was the difficulty levels. It was the first time I played a game, when the difficulty levels were based on something else than just making the enemies tougher. Each difficulty level added new objectives, new trinkets to find, new things to do. I also adored the expert level, which prohibited you from killing anyone - I know, it's not for everyone, but it was just so satisfying and it forced me to rethink my usual tactics and engaged me a lot more.

Personally, I think that that approach needs to be taken by more games nowadays. Not just increase the health level of your opponents and put more of them in your path. That's just taking the easy way to creating difficulty levels.

I sincerely hope T4 keeps this logic.

[Velecost]

Keep Garret as the main character. No bloody young character with Garret only being a side character.
Have Stephen Russel do the voice acting.
No Thief a la Assassin's creed.
Large singular maps - no roaming world.
No climbing gloves
Keep it steam punk
Keep the cutscenes in old Thief style
Eric Brosius for ambient music
Don't shaft PC owners by porting a crappy XBOX version that gives us loading times.
Focus on the first person view.
Make it more stealthy than Thief DS - go back to the roots of the series.
Rope arrows.
A new Life of the Party mission
Please tell me it's not going to be called Thi4f god dammit.
My favourite is Thief 2 - it realised what was good with Thief and just improved upon that.


Awesome especially about the cutscene style I miss that. I hope they listen to the fans because if they do this game is going to be great. I still own all 3 for the pc lol. Cannot wait to go through and play them again.

[gdttek]

I agree with everyone that wants Garrett to be the main playable character of the game , and I would also like Stephen Russell's exceptional voice to do the voice acting.Do NOT change the environment since almost 95% of us fans like it the way it is.I won't mind a free-roaming world as it was in T3 (my personal favourite even though many fans didn't like it , I totally enjoyed its fantastic atmosphere and breathtaking scenario).There is no reason for a third-person view , first-person works great , we all know how Garrett looks.Take care of the PC version and do NOT offer us a cheap console port , the Thief games are PC games.The cutscenes must be extraordinary considering the technology that is currently available to the development studios.NO music of course in the game , only ambient sounds.Keep all of Garrett's gadgets also (we all played entire missions using the blackjack only) ! And last but not least , PLEASE develop a game that will be worthy of its predecessors (but don't be too late , lol) or even best , since Ion Storm's and Looking Glass' legacy is huge !

[Apprentice101]

NOTE: Not really pointed at anyone in particular, just a preemptive strike:

Thief is Thief. Lets leave it at that. If you have some 'crazy cool' idea, then you can go form your own IP and your own Stealth simulator series. There, you could add all of the:


TITS
VIOLENCE
ALTERNATE PROTAGONISTS
REGENERATING HEALTH
STICKY COVER SYSTEMS
MODERN SETTINGS
QUICK TIME EVENTS
VEHICLES
THIRD PERSON CAMERA ANGLES
and MULTIPLAYER GAME MODES


That you want. But do not think that you have any right to throw these things into a Thief game and still call it by the same name.

Formula for success:
Start with Thief 2. Improve the graphics, make up a new story with new supporting characters, and maybe add some new items to Garrett's arsenal. That's it.

Look at Starcraft 2 for example. Blizzard is basically making Starcraft with better graphics, an all new single player campaign(s), and some new units. And that's exactly how it should be.


Sorry you are wrong here. Starcraft 2 is not starcraft 1. it ACTUALLy has NEW features NEW story, NEW PROTAGONISTS and maybe NEW Multiplayer MODES.

Same way THief IV should not be THief 1.5, Thief 2.5, thief 3.5. YEs the feeling/atmoshpere/immersion/world/gameplay has to be the same. Just i dont think it has to do anything with NEW STORY and NEW FEATURES. Therefore, i agree with most of the pointed out, just dont think ALTERNATE PROTAGONIST (like the alternate protagonist on side missions, Garret on Vital missions) or MULTIPLAYER MODES (as long as they dont break THief single player development) couldnt be added.

[Aceyalone7777]

Well, basically I totally agree with what many of the fans have said (no climbing gloves, bring back rope arrows, swimmable water etc etc) but I want to point somethings that have been forgotten.

1.What about the fences?
One of the most annoying stuff in T3 were the fences and the fact that to sell one category of an item you had to go to a certain fence in town and above top, you didnt know in exactly whom to go. Only when you have kept notes or remembered or something else u could find the fence u were looking for. Plz bring back the classic buying screen

2.Difficulty
Thief 3, was too easy. I mean compare T3 with the last mission in T2 in time span, complex and difficulty. (Dam, those beacons in Expert were HELL). T3 was a walk in the park.

3. Objectives
What was that peculiar thing with the objectives? I mean the expert difficulty setting differed from the normal (or easy dont remember) only in hit points and loot needed. What a HUGE let down that was... Plz, bring back unique objectives in harder difficulty settings!

4.Map
T2 Map, where you could see where u have been and where u were now, was the best. Nothing less is accepted

OVER AND OUT!

PS: Also about to whether use T1 or T2 setting, I suppose that if there are linear missions (you better have :p) both thief games had both, just one was more used than the other. Well, I suppose the final setting will be decided upon which the final boss will be, but no matter what u will decide keep in mind 2 things
1. Use both settings! Just use the one more, in favor of the other.
2. Keep in mind we have already seen 2 Thief games with terror and monsters theme. So a suggestion will be use a kinda more mechanical theme so as to strike a balance. Also, after using the final glyph in T3, it is supposed that many of the monsters of The Cisy were destroyed...

[Dragonera]

"Will there be that, or that or please no that or please do that and not that."

PEOPLE! No worry, thi4f will be just fine. Im sure that thi4f team is good and skilled. Actually im not gonna read very much these before i get thi4f, i need and want suprises!

Just keep it simple... NO, dont keep it simple. secrets and areas which are hided.

Sorry my bad english, i tried my best :P :mad2:

[mister_riz]

Mate, people are just excited (me included).

They're at the concept stage so fan input cannot hurt, they may choose to be be influenced by it or not. They should already see we want Garrett, rope arrows and large sprawling maps ala T2 back from this forum. They'll make it their own way, but don't read into these threads too much as they won't give any spoilers away and I'm sure you're right in the sense they'll make a great game :)

[Dragonera]

Im excited too, and MUCH! I have waited this very long time.

[KharN]

Try not go the same direction as Thief 3.. it was Garbage..

Keep to the formula of Thief 2.. No undead zombies ect.. Keep the element of realism to a certain degree.. im tired of seeing the undead in every game release these days..

Keep the main character as GARRET.. please whatever you do DO NOT CHANGE THE MAIN CHARACTER.. Garrett is Thief.. anyone else would be silly.. (not that its gonna matter really jsut be cool to keep the star)

Make the maps more "sandbox" let players go to thriving citys or small towns on much larger scale maps.. If bethesda can manage with Fallout and Oblivion ect.. Then there no reason Thief 4 cant incorporate a Huge world with more "sub quest" based missions..

And please do not come in here stating that if THIEF followed suit of "oblivion" that it would be pointless as it would pretty much be a new elder scrolls game.. WRONG.. Thief is pure stealth Game.. its different on so many levels.. Opening the maps is just a logical idea, and making the maps larger and allowing an open world where the player has much more freedom is exactly what i think a new thief game needs..

Th

[torchdragon]

My first recommendation for your new Thief title is to ensure that it is complicated. Thief 3 and Dues Ex 2 suffered by having their game play experiences "tuned" for a softer audience. This is a mistake and needs to be communicated to the Decision Makers. By making a game "more accessible" all you are doing is aggravating the fan base you already have while providing a mild game experience that won't capture the attention of new players for long enough.

Killing people generally isn't complicated. I'd rather not kill people just like I was glad to not have to be Garrett the Zombie Slayer in Thief 2.

Limited items generally isn't complicated. I want different tools at my disposal. (Note: This does not mean 5 versions of the same item. That is not complicated, that is redundant.)

Long, drawn out cut scenes that take away from the time I get to play the game are not complicated. I want to play the game, not watch a movie. I recommend the Half-Life philosophy of never breaking first-person view, its a good thing.

Small, carved up levels that can't fit into memory of a certain console *cough* are not complicated. I want to feel lost, not in a level.

Pretty scenery that doesn't present issues is not complicated. My environment should be as much of a challenge as any Hammerite.

Thinking is complicated. Doing can be complicated. Requiring both thinking and doing is very complicated. I would like to think and do. There are too many games that simply make you do.

Linear design is not complicated. I'm stealing things, not shopping for groceries.

As I mentioned above, Thief should be a complicated game. Certain low level aspects of the game should be simple. Moving, manipulating, etc. But those should only be the foundation of other more complicated things. Please do not simplify the game specifically to increase the market penetration rate and overall accessibility of the franchise as to increase generated revenue.

Please Eidos, make this one for the fans, not for your marketing department. I'm sure they're all really, really nice people but you've got an entire forum of raving lunatics that will throw money at you for doing the right thing.

I have money and I'm not all there. Help me help you.

[randomtaffer]

Killing people generally isn't complicated. I'd rather not kill people just like I was glad to not have to be Garrett the Zombie Slayer in Thief 2.


I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I like having the option to slay undead and monsters. I hate the bastards, so I usually just put zombies and other undead to the sword so I don't have to deal with them again.

I do agree that killing humans is messy and very non Garrett-like though.

[The Deuce]

Alright, here's some advice for Thief 4, from a big-time Thief fan, on what to avoid and not to avoid. I think most of the other commenters here will back me up on most of this.

First of all, Thief 3. I have a mixed opinion on that game. From a story perspective, it was quite good. It tied together and wrapped up the Thief series, and was very much in the spirit of the whole thing. However, from a gameplay mechanics perspective, nearly every one of its various "innovations" detracted from the fun of the game. In general, I think the developers of that game felt pressured to simplify it, and make to it more like Splinter Cell, and as a result ended up with a mishmash that pleased no one. Here's some stuff to not do again:

1) Garrett can swim, okay? No more games where he somehow forgets how to.
2) No more 3rd person view. It's less immersive, and allows you to cheat by seeing stuff that Garrett can't see. Particularly with widescreen having become standard, 1st person view should offer plenty field of view.
3) No more glowing treasure. Half of the point of Thief is the scavenger hunt. When the treasure lights up for you, it stops being a fun game of hide-n-seek, and just turns into a boring, but mandatory, collection chore.
4) At least on the hardest skill level, Garret shouldn't be allowed to kill people. This is partly an aspect of the character (he's a professional thief, not a murderer), and partly a challenging aspect of gameplay: it forces you to avoid hostile encounters and to use only your blackjack and (limited) knockout gas.

Some other things to take into consideration:
1) The free-roaming GTA style city isn't necessarily bad, but it was implemented poorly in Thief 3. In particular, it really screwed with inventory management, since you could roam around and get an unlimited amount of money and stuff to take into levels with you. It took away the pressure to use your items each level, as well as the pressure to not overuse them. Something needs to be put in the game to balance this. If you wish to do the open city thing, perhaps Garrett should have a Zelda-like limit on the number of things of each type he can carry at once. Also, don't do it if it's going to require extensive use of load times.
2) The climbing gloves of Thief 4 weren't horrible in and of themselves, but they weren't nearly as fun as the rope/vine arrows they replaced. The reason for this is that rope arrows are more varied and more interesting. They allow for more tactical possibilities than climbing gloves, and it requires more strategy and skill to use them effectively. This is a good thing to keep in mind for any new innovations you decide to add to Thief this time around: Don't Dumb Things Down. Thief is a thinking man's game, and we can handle some complexity.
3) In general, don't "arcade" things up in an attempt to get a wider player base. A hybridized game will merely alienate your existing base, and won't really please the more action-oriented players either. What Thief needs is better advertising than it's had in the past, to draw more people in for the first time. I'd be happy to see the game on consoles, but that doesn't mean it has to be dumbed down.


And finally, there's the story aspect of the game. All three Thief games have really gotten this right. Thief 3 really wrapped things up nicely, but didn't really leave things open for a sequel. I don't think it would be possible to make a game about Garrett un-retiring, without screwing up the story. As I see it, the options are a game about his protege, or a remake of Thief 1.

[randomtaffer]

Keep to the formula of Thief 2.. No undead zombies ect.. Keep the element of realism to a certain degree.. im tired of seeing the undead in every game release these days..


There were undead zombies in Thief 2. It simply wouldn't be a thief game without the occasional haunt, zombie, or apparition.

[Dr.Haggard]

Long, drawn out cut scenes that take away from the time I get to play the game are not complicated. I want to play the game, not watch a movie. I recommend the Half-Life philosophy of never breaking first-person view, its a good thing.
God no! :)

That works for Half-Life, but Thief isn't Half-Life. Daniel Thron's cutscene art is a staple of the series, it wouldn't be Thief without those sequences. If you mean in-engine cut scenes then I agree to an extent, but the classic Thief cut scenes/intros/briefings etc are absolutely essential.

[Ice1019]

I totally agree with bringing back the old difficulty settings. Adding new objectives based on the difficulty was a touch of genius, and the no-kill restriction worked not only as a challenge that was almost anathema to the Doom/Duke/Quake games we had before Thief, but from a story perspective too. Garrett is an artist, and his medium is theft. He doesn't kill because he is so good, he doesn't have to.

[VIKTORIA]

Forgive me for having to merge quite a few individual 'wants/advice' threads into this one discussion.

Anyone who wishes to ask a specific question (for example, sword or dagger? etc) may be best creating a vote poll thread.
A poll emphasises questions of choice and works better for dedicated analysis and discussion.
Polls will not be merged into any other thread.

Sound a good compromise? Hope so... :p

[Herr_Garrett]

Make the maps more "sandbox" let players go to thriving citys or small towns on much larger scale maps.. If bethesda can manage with Fallout and Oblivion ect.. Then there no reason Thief 4 cant incorporate a Huge world with more "sub quest" based missions..

This isn't what Thief is about. This idea is so easy to screw up, that in 99% it would be. The point is that the City is a huge, living city. In Oblivion, if you stole something, it remained stolen, nothing was ever replenished, no random stuff appeared, etc. In a thieving game replenishment, the occasional change of the City structure, like walled-up doors, boarded windows, new faces in town, new shops and so forth. These would be necessary only if the span of the game should take longer than one month. But if it does, these and several other changes have to implemented.

I do not agree with subquests because those would divert the player from the main quest. Sure, DP and MA had the "find extra loot" objectives as well (in DS the sidequests were so screwed up that it is pointless to discuss), but in an open city it might very easily lead the player astray. The thing about the OMs were that Garrett was always there in the right time, at the right place, and put his digit right on the crux of things. If you have to stop a, say, alien invasion, you just don't go around changing old ladies' nappies for money and picking pockets for small change.

No. You become the one-member go-getting-hard-hitting-lean-mean-team, whom pro-actively and dynamically save the world, with minimum equipment and time, and without fooling around.

Like, you know, Garrett did.

[DarthEnder]

There's alot of undead hate in this thread, but I want to clarify from my own standpoint that I don't hate undead. I hate zombies. And I hate zombies because theres no way to put them down that doesn't use up alot of consumables and doesn't make alot of noise.

Haunt never bothered me because, despite being undead, a fully charged sword bash to the back would drop them, never to get back up again. It's basically just a guard you don't feel guilty about killing.

Zombies though, you either have to blow the ****ers up, or flash them to death. All noisy, and all expensive in fire arrows/flash bombs etc.

That's why zombies in Thief 2 were so great, because there was never more than two of them in the whole level. You were just like, "Uh oh, couple of zombies." *flash flash* and you were on your way.

That why I kinda liked the holy water flasks in T3, or at least the idea of them. Backstab the zombie, then douse him before he can get back up. Too bad they didn't let you carry enough of them to deal with the problem of a zombie infested area.


And don't even get me started on Puppets...br-r-r-r-ruh...

[randomtaffer]

I think most of the undead hate stems from fear, rather than something similar to the Doom 3 "no flashlight and gun at the same time" annoyance. This means that Thief has done a good job to scare the players.
And from what I can remember, a fully charged back stab sword slash to a zombie would knock them down in TDS and TMA. (Only to get up again if the player got close, of course)

[joshtheitguy]

I agree with everyone else and Thief 4 should be heavily based around the concepts and quality of Thief 2 and I want to voice my concern for the future and why I felt Thief 3 was a major disappointment.

Thief was originally produced and released as a PC game in 1998 which was innovative and perfected the stealth aspect better than any game before or after. Later in 2000 Thief II: The Metal Age came out and perfected everything from the first and by far was the greatest achievement in the series, again PC only.

In 2004 Ion Storm tried to create Thief III, a game which did follow the storyline and the same basic principles but technically was a bad idea. What should have been a great game was made into a mediocre game because of this obsession every game studio has with consoles. Thief III was seriously limited due to the use of the Unreal II engine which could not provide large enough maps for the various missions instead of expanding on the original Dark engine. I feel that the transition to the Unreal engine made it easier to port to consoles and was done on this engine to make a console game; where I worry Thief IV is going.

The Thief series is a PC gaming series, it existed well before consoles we even able to match what PCs could do and belongs on the PC. Thief I + II provided vast levels with no transition load times which helped give complete and total immersion into the environment. Thief III on the other hand often broke the immersion for level transitions which were to compensate solely for the lack of memory in consoles and limitations in the Unreal engine because it was not meant for what Thief is.

I'm not saying to not port it to consoles not one bit at all but here is what I want from Thief 4:

Develop the game for the PC first then port to the consoles.
Develop the game's engine around supporting large levels which do not require breaking immersion for transition zones. Modern consoles should be able to support larger levels anyway.
Get rid of the climbing gloves and go back to the rope arrows.
On top of the three difficulty levels provide an achievement system similar to what was introduced in Steam to increase replay value.
Do not use, under any circumstances SecuROM. CD-Keys, Steam are fine but I think I speak for everyone when I say "I do not want to play any game which uses SecuROM as the DRM and will not buy any game which uses this malicious and draconian DRM."

The PC is still a gaming platform whether game developers want to believe it or not and Thief is a PC gaming series. It is ok to have multiplatform support at launch but the PC development should come first and consoles an afterthought.

[Abelo]

4-PARKOUR!!!!

We all love to see those guys jump over walls and fences and do those neat tricks we would like to do to, but cant due to lack of shape, exess baggage or simply cause we're too lazy. so why not let garret do it for us?
Oh, of course, introduce parkour in every damned game out there. Parkour in DX3 too, please. And make an RTS in which soldiers do parkour, and why not a new Monkey Island in which Guybrush free-runs every ship deck in the harbor.

Oh please.

[comy]

Played the whole thief series, and I must say that thief 3 and 2 were the best.
Each had a few things that the other didn't, so they are quite even in my view.

I really dont get people who say that T3 sucked, and then give comments like: you couldnt swim & the maps were small. Sure it would be nice to be able to take a swim here or there, but seriously it didn't break the game in ANY way.
The smaller maps (by my standards they really werent that small, medium maybe) made the game more focused and intense. Maybe im the only one who didnt like the lengthy and neverending tunnel/cave levels in TDP... :/
Thief3 introduced freeroamable city, which was something I wanted since the realease of TDP. Sure it wasnt as big as I'd hope, it was tiny, with not enough loot, but it gave a great feeling to the atmosphere and provided excellent transitions between the missions (unlike the "jump in" system of the first two games) and made it more realistic. Liked the fence idea too.

What I probably missed in T3 the most was the rope arrow (hated the gloves). Some missions in T2 became so rewarding largely because of this feature (the mask stealing mission!!!!!!!).


Thats it for now!
:)

[randomtaffer]

I really dont get people who say that T3 sucked, and then give comments like: you couldnt swim & the maps were small. Sure it would be nice to be able to take a swim here or there, but seriously it didn't break the game in ANY way.

Seriously?
:hmm:

Moving through sewers is a huge part of the thief world, and usually swimming is involved.

[Gan Xodos]

The sword was really useful for smashing through things in an emergency like wooden boards or locks. I'd rather they bring it back or go for more of an in between instead of a crappy knife.

You're right, a sword would be useful in a sticky situation. I say both knife and sword (or you COULD start out with just a blackjack and then be able to buy the sword and knife later on)

About the parcour stuff... I think it would be great to be able to walk on most rooftops and be able to jump from one ledge to another (and grab on with your hands instead of just with your feet like in thief 3), I'm saying something similar to assassins creed but much less athletic and more realistic (no jumping down from 2 stories up without dieing please) making garret feel like a real man but who has decent climbing abilities (of course the rope arrow could do lots of the work for him)

[Mshade]

You're right, a sword would be useful in a sticky situation. I say both knife and sword (or you COULD start out with just a blackjack and then be able to buy the sword and knife later on)

About the parcour stuff... I think it would be great to be able to walk on most rooftops and be able to jump from one ledge to another (and grab on with your hands instead of just with your feet like in thief 3), I'm saying something similar to assassins creed but much less athletic and more realistic (no jumping down from 2 stories up without dieing please) making garret feel like a real man but who has decent climbing abilities (of course the rope arrow could do lots of the work for him)

I`m going to have to disagree. Garrett is never really shown as a super athletic guy like Altair. I think turning him into a parkour master would really mess up the atmosphere of the game. But I somewhat agree, he should have some sort of moves (jumps, etc..) but not to the extent of Altair.

[Thievingtaffer]

Overall, I'm just saying it wouldn't be as bad an idea as you're suggesting to follow the tracks of the original two games. They have a following for a reason, ya know?
~E
Good post, friend, I agree with pretty much all of it.

Also, Garrett is no young tiger, prancing around on the rooftops is not realistic.

[Reaper200]

Don't try and copy Assassins Creed! I had huge hopes for that game but they didn't deliver for me. In particular don't use the combat system from that game. I hated it.

I also agree with everything the OP said although i love Thief: Deadly Shadows but i think that has more to do with it being the first Thief game i ever played more than anything else.

[Gan Xodos]

I just SAID, not prancing. but as a real thief, with ropes and gear be able to go across roofs and occasionally a few jumps. I used assassins creed as an example but as I said before:
"much less athletic and more realistic (no jumping down from 2 stories up without dying please) making garret feel like a real man but who has decent climbing abilities (of course the rope arrow could do lots of the work for him)"

in any case I couldn't imagine garret as being older than 45 EVER even in the twentieth thief game, he should never get older as that spoils his image... so some climbing around would be ok.

I REPEAT THAT I DON'T WANT AN ASSASSINS CREED CLONE (in any case that would make it third person and that's unacceptable). JUST FOR HIM TO BE ABLE TO GET TO HIS SECRET HIDING SPOTS ON THE ROOF WITHOUT TOO MUCH OF A HASSLE

[Bukary]

5-DONT HIRE THE 3DREALMS STAFF!!!!!!!!!111!!!1!111!!11!11!
Wrong. They should definitely hire David Riegel (Sledge/Raen). He is the guy behind some of the best Thief fan missions (The Inverted Manse) and TDS levels (the docks). He was also responsible for excellent Thief 2X (http://www.thief2x.com/default2.asp).

[ZenAbra]

I would absolutely love it if they hired David Riegel. And it would give the development team far greater credibility with the Thief community.

[Flashart]

Do: Make Garrett adaptable, I'd love to commando crawl.
Make very explorable levels/streets.
Use "magic" sparingly, it ruins everything if fireballs are being hurled around
willy-nilly.
Include an editor, Thief's not ever gonna be "multiplayer" but fans love sharing
their own designs.
Introduce some new characters that can "stay around", providing a source of story
material.

[Matuzzz]

Am I the only one in this thread who actually didnt like that crafty steampunk look of thief 2? I think because of those steam "robot" things on every corner it was annoying. I would apriciate if I will see more levels like Shalbridge Cradle.

[cobakka]

Wrong. They should definitely hire David Riegel (Sledge/Raen). He is the guy behind some of the best Thief fan missions (The Inverted Manse) and TDS levels (the docks). He was also responsible for excellent Thief 2X (http://www.thief2x.com/default2.asp).

:thumb:

[randomtaffer]

Am I the only one in this thread who actually didnt like that crafty steampunk look of thief 2?

Yes, most likely.

[rezorrand]

First I'd like to announce that I like the TF2 best, TFtDP second and DS last (but not least, it had many good things, but also number of bad decisions)
I've read all the messages on this thread and couldn't resist giving my two pennies for this discussion (more like 2 dollars though..) To begin with.. a quick list and after that some explanations for my choices and finally comments on other user comments which I liked.
Bear with me..

My suggestions:

No sandbox, rather dynamic mission tree, but no "series of missions" either.
Rather than 'generic' think 'unique'
Swimming (nuff' said)
AI that would finally do something..
Weapons that would act like weapons and physical fighting
Hook and a rope. (how come no one thought of this?)
T1/T2 style cutscenes still stand out as unique.
No scripted events, at least as long as they don't mess up the gameplay
No wall-climbing gloves. Fun idea, but not very suitable in Thief
NO timed events
Working with the fan-community might make the development process easier?
Level editor
Realistic weather (already discussed in great detail in other threads)
Some variety in the 3D models
Factions are a must
Undead creatures are part of the City as well as the other unique critters

Regarding forum:

Adding a rating system for posts? This way good ideas would stand out.


Ah.. I still have like a dozen ideas at least, but let's move on to the more detailed points.

Sandboxes
I can see how some people would see making the game more sandbox like a cool addition. However, as it's been observed with many games so far this makes storytelling harder, much harder. Particularly with Thief series as their trump card has always been immersion and a good storyline. Besides, the bigger the sandbox, the more generic the game becomes. This is very visible with the Assasin's Creed and GTA series. Fallout and Oblivion too to some extent although I would claim them to be the best efforts in this area.

As a final side note on this topic, the more time is spent on making a detailed city, the more time is taken away from level design. I'd rather see a lot of well designed levels than a load of mediocrity with mediocre city. Hence, the City should be kept as a place where missions might go into rather than a place from where you go into missions.

Generality of things
Problem with many games these days is the generic everything. Things are simplified down with hard hand and often the result is a lukewarm pile of stuff that no one remembers. Thief is something that has unique setting, unique world, unique characters and enemies even (to some extent). The thing that made the original Thief series so special was the intricately detailed levels. Some things were only used in one particular level alone and others were a rarity too. Even the chunks of gold and silver had some differences in shape and size. The guards armors should have varying insignia, "normal people" looks (i.e. making sure no two characters in one level would be alike, but not too memorable looks either, unless its the same character) This is probably the biggest challenges for the artists and designers alike, but that's were the community might help (seel later on) if concept is given, I'm sure there's loads of more than willing people to help.
Addittionally, one look in Deus Ex 2 reveals its biggest flaw. Generic ammo?? I know there's no ammo in Thief, but imagine if the same ideology would have been used with the guards or loot?

Hook and rope
Now this is something I've longed to see since the beginning of ages. I understand why earlier a hook and rope concept would have been difficult to accomplish but not anymore that much. Even poorest physics engines are able to handle some sort of rope so making a hook that would latch on to something and would then make it easier to climb some difficult parts would be a blast. That way there wouldn't always have to be a wooden beam or a grating for rope and vine arrows to catch into. It's possible to use in reality, so why not in a game? Heck, they even did it in the old Batman series. Besides, guards could kick it down or cut the rope if they saw it so there would be an element of panic too.

Smart AI
We all know how great the AI has been in Thief series. However, like said in other posts too, the AI still rather stupid rather than flawed. Of course it can search places, walk around, react to noise, group on the player, sound the alarm, run away to alert more guards and "see" stolen items, turned off torch etc. But what would be great is that it would actually do something about the torches, mosses (on carpet), oil puddles, dead/unconcious bodies. Just think what you would normally do in such cases, if you were a guard. Light the fire, clean the mess, wake up the pals and report the incident which would then increase the patrol size, wake up guards sleeping in bunks. Get torches to guards so they could search better. Heck, maybe even do purges in the place, block escape routes. Anything, as long as they don't just get a sudden dementia and forget about the dead bodies. Of course they were more wary and almost impossible to blackjack afterwards, but that's about it. Which brings us to our next topic.

Weapons and fighting
How many times you've snuck up a guard with your blackjack, whacked him in the head and then die because the guard was in "wary" mode and thus invincible to black jack attacks? You'd just keep on bashing him in the head with little to no effect.. if you can hit someone hard enough in the head to make him unconscious, it shouldn't matter if he had seen you or not. However, to make it more thief like, surprise attacks should still do the trick.

Besides the dagger in DS was the most useless weapon ever, you didn't stand a chance against the guards with it.The sword was surprisingly well done in the 1/2. If you hit the wall or a statue, the hit stopped mid-strike. Shouldn't be too hard to do. Also the locking blades if your blade hit the guard's was something I haven't seen in nearly any game with sword fighting. Some physicality in fight would be great too. Visualizing the pain (image getting sharper), stun (blurring, falling to the ground), poisoning (hallucinations, distortion, forcing the Garrett to clutch his chest, impairing some abilities, or making them harder), blinding (L4D has a nice effect when Boomer throws up on you, or simply going by sound.. could be plot induced) etc. if someone hits you, it should feel like it. However as fighting isn't the main part of Thief it should be hard, but I'm sure there are people who wish to master it. So.. drop the daggers and pick up a weapon of a man. Also some gander at the Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, could be considered when searching for tips about character physicality.

Scripted events
Scripted events are great, but in many games they often make a break for the gameplay and cause many exploits. In Thief there should be scripts only with things player can't interfere with. For example guy standing by the portcullis until the player comes 7ft away from him and then he blasts into action is bad design, especially the player-can-see-him-but-he-does-nothing-until-something-required-happens. So.. use with care.

Timed events
Even though it might feel fun to add them, there's no reason to. If the player fails he dies and has to retry again and again until he finally manages to pull it through. They're a gameplay killer and don't really add up to anything. Particularly with the Thief.. some intuitive perhaps like shaking something off of your face with mouse or such, but other than that.. no thanks.

Fan community
We've all seen how strong and vibrant the fan-community can be with certain classics. Many remakes, thousands of mods and even some work on games that weren't made to be modded in the first place. This forum is a great beginning, asking what the players want. However, if some form of co-operation could be achieved with the devoted fans, I believe the end result could be very, very rewarding. Of course there's a greater danger of leaks of early builds, details and such as always with any bigger productions. However, there's a huge untapped force waiting behind the scenes, more than eager to help as long as there's some sort of organized system behind it. Like a T4Dev-request site where developers could say what they'd like and then the fans could participate. This would take the load off from the devs and give a chance of contribution to players.

3D model variety
In DS although the graphics were a lot better than in the 1/2 (obviously) one thing made me a little bit annoyed. The character models weren't very unique, of course the facial hair and its colour changed, but below that, there were too many similar looking models this was one of the many reminders that DS was just a game and killed something small within.

Factions
I think the idea of dealing with the different factions in DS was a nice idea. It didn't help much in the actual game though, apart from making them not to attack the player. The ways to gain this trust was also bit awkward as watering plants or .. what was it.. doing something with the signs for the Keepers was simply boring. Instead some alternate mission objectives or even missions unique (or unique tools? changing the gameplay tactics) for the factions depending on one's disposition give a possibility to get some extra buck or additions to the storyline would be nice. Nothing big, but nothing too generic either. They wouldn't have to be big, but the disposition might affect the gameplay somehow, or the ending even.

Then off to other things.

Many awesome ideas here that with some refinement would contribute to a greatest Thief game ever. If developers heed the community and love what they do. (which I don't want to question at such an early stage as I don't believe this announcement would have even been done if it wasn't so.. anyway)


SECRETS and a tally at the end of the mission for secrets/treasures found/stealth rating (really liked this added replayability)


Yes, the secrets were one of my favourite things in T1/T2, even that aspect was greatly crippled in DS as all the secret switches and stuff were PLOT RELATED. How on earth they'd come up with that?

Mature storyline with depth that we can debate on the forums after with some ambiguity

Thief has always prided itself with interesting plot, many twists and turns and shocking events. T4 shouldn't make an exception. Good story isn't everything, but bad story alone kills the game easily.


Improved combat that is engaging with ability to make guards look like fools while escaping like pulling their shirt over their head or knocking their helmets down so they cannot see etc
Lately physicality has taken a leap in games. This would be a great immersion bringer. Also if the guards were able to hit with the wide side of the blade and thus concuss Garrett (or *gasp* the protagonist). But as fighting isn't the main point too much sleep shouldn't be missed over this.


Backstory log in a journal type book to give it that cool feel
A journal that keeps track of sidequests, movies, story, characters, items, enemies (bestiary) to really give the world more detail and depth

This would be a fun addition, particularly the journal, it would keep track of the game progression and might provide hints on solving puzzles, keeping reminders etc. Bestiary.. hmm.. I think it's better to leave some things a mystery. However these kinds of things would indeed increase the immersion tenfold.

Achievements/Trophies that add replayability to the levels
Heh, this would be nice addition. PC gamers would certainly enjoy this as well.

An important thing that might easily be unnoticed:

In T1 and T2 there were lots of secrets and even additional objectives that could only be discovered by reading books and letters scattered around the levels, and then piecing together the clues. Bring back the vague clues. Some of the secrets were very intriguing and it was very satisfying when you finally found them. (I still haven't gotten into this so-called secret room that Brother Renault talks about in "Return to the Cathedral" :( )
Like I said earlier they would be very welcome. As a further note. There are way too few real secrets in games these days. I wonder what's gotten into developers these days? Is it just the fatigue from coming up with the game itself that the extras are forgotten. It's incredibly rewarding for one to find some hidden switch somewhere and then find some hidden area with something unique in it (like maybe a tool or special arrows etc.) instead of finding some generic healing potion or such. Something that wouldn't unbalance the game, but would bring a hard-earned sense of reward.



With increasingly dynamism possible in video games these days, I think this idea could be further developed beyond being a simple cap enforced in the mission objectives and greeted by a failure if passed. Killing people, being caught stealing, and so on, could have repercussions beyond the current mission. If you deal out too much damage to a bunch of guards, it may be more likely that they will try to pursue the villain responsible in the future. Many possibilities seem potentially fruitful.

I support this idea too. This was executed in the Hitman Blood money (was it the fourth?) where the news reports were reporting on a massacre if the player just went about guns whistling. This also made the game harder later on as there were more security guards/police in the following missions. In Thief, the people would be more wary about their possessions for example and the player would have to be more thorough when searching the goods. More guards too and such. Maybe some important person would have locked up his room at night to increase the difficulty in getting inside.


having side missions because you found special loot would be neat and expand the game hidden objectives like on the 1st mission and several others in Thief2
The harder difficulty additions alone were a great idea in the first two installments of the series. Special loot from secret places that would trigger some side-missions would be almost too awesome and super rewarding. Particularly if there's some puzzle involved, something that wouldn't be a simple switch hunt or stuff like that.

That's my contribution. I hope at least some of the ideas get flame underneath. However, beside all this text, I warmly hope that I'd get to experience the immersion and fun of the original two parts of the games and although all these addition talks is fun, the basis is the most important.

thieving done right
believable ai
T1/T2 style mission briefings
good level and story design
good controls
no dumbing down, we're all grown ups
variety no generality
think of "fresh" rather than "safe and secure"
no "evil" drm's such as starforce or securom
and last but really not the least PLAYTESTING. The earlier you find a mistake, the cheaper it is to fix it. 1/2 were of high quality and DS also was much above average. But there are too many games released when they were only half done. Take your time, we can wait for little bit longer if it's not ready yet. (don't make it a new Duke Nukem Forever though ;))

[rezorrand]

Oh.. and did I mention? Would love to see some nasty traps in this game too. Nothing unbelievable, but rather traps that are hard to spot, clever and deadly (or at least fatal). Of course the valuable items wouldn't be guarded by a few dumb guards, magic and secret rooms only?

[randomtaffer]

Take your time, we can wait for little bit longer if it's not ready yet.


I really wish that the world of game developing was like this.

[Neb]

I want that noise from Thief 2 when you press a light-switch and it goes PING!

That is all.

[randomtaffer]

I want that noise from Thief 2 when you press a light-switch and it goes PING!

That is all.

QFT

That is a glorious noise indeed!

Also, the completed objective noise.

[industrialphreak]

Give us control like the classic thief's, Ubuntu Linux compatibility, and multi player missions/mod ability.

[Nate]

Well, I've mentioned these ideas in the equipment section of this forum, but it is a wish...so here goes:

1) To further enhance immersion and re-playability, I would like Garrett to have greater choice of what equipment/weapons/armor to use on a mission. *Yes, I would like Garrett to have a choice of wearing leather armor (less stealthy) for players who sometimes like a bit of hand to hand.

2) Also, I would like a weight/encumbrance system to be introduced to the game where each piece of equipment/weapons/armor has an encumbrance value. Players would then suffer increasing penalties the more/heavier stuff they carry.

Penalties could include reduction in stealth, reductions in running/climbing speed, reductions in jumping range, increase in movement noise, and so on.

These penalties would force players to choose very different gameplay types...either ghosting or using equipment to get through the missions. This would increase re-playability.

3) I would like the old combat system of being able to block/parry attacks with a sword to be brought back...it is a nice touch. Still, a single armored guard should still be able to give Garrett a very hard time.

4) Finally, players who tended to ghost mission in Thief DS would end up with tons of $ and nothing to spend it on. I would like to see some special/magic items for sale in the game that cost INSANE amounts of $. In order the preserve game balance, these items could only be slightly better than average/standard weapons/armor/equipment/unique items. But at least Ghost players would have something to spend their money on!!!!

Make these items SO EXPENSIVE that even frugal Ghost players can only ever afford a couple of these special/magic items per game = encourage them to play through the game again to try out the other items.

[Wazootyman]

Well, I've mentioned these ideas in the equipment section of this forum, but it is a wish...so here goes:

To further enhance immersion and re-playability, I would like Garrett to have greater choice of what equipment/weapons/armor to use on a mission.

Also, I would like a weight/encumbrance system to be introduced to the game where each piece of equipment/weapons/armor has an encumbrance value. Players would then suffer increasing penalties the more/heavier stuff they carry.

Penalties could include reduction in stealth, reductions in running/climbing speed, reductions in jumping range, increase in movement noise, and so on.

Finally, players who tended to ghost mission in Thief DS would end up with tons of $ and nothing to spend it on. I would like to see some special/magic items for sale in the game that cost INSANE amounts of $. In order the preserve game balance, these items could only be slightly better than average/standard weapons/armor/equipment/unique items. But at least Ghost players would have something to spend their money on!!!!

All excellent ideas, I agree that these concepts should be implemented.

[xannonite]

Most of the people here seem to like Thief 2 the most, but Thief 1 is by far my favorite. I personally liked the undead, and the pagans and their forest/surreal environments. Some of the most memorable maps for me include the haunted cathedral, the catacombs, and the ancient ruins. I have yet to play a game that could scare me like Thief 1.

As for the annoyance of killing zombies, you didn't have to. Part of the thrill was trying to avoid them or running for your life to find a hiding spot. I found the robots and security systems in Thief 2 to be much more annoying and mundane.

One of the main things I'd like to see in Thief 4 is the return of pre-mission cutscenes in the style of Thief 1/2, with the ambient soundtrack that started as a whisper and built up until you had goosebumps. I was quite disappointed and irritated to see them replaced with a simple narration of the mission summary in Thief 3.

For the storyline and setting, it seems to me that the odds of the designers being able to create something like Thief1/2 that will satisfy us fans are slim. Having a new setting with a new main character is probably the safest way to go. Keep the dark, quiet, and often surreal environments, but maybe have it all in a different place and/or time. Keep the Hammerite, Pagan, and Keeper elements. However, If the same voice actor can't be used for Garrett, then there's no point in using him as the main character.

[Nate]

Agreed. I would LOVE and PREFER to see Garrett as the main character...but if you can't get Stephen Russell to do the voice = might as well move on to new characters because a different voice actor for Garrett = Phail!

[GmanPro]

No. I am right here. You just proved my point. New single player campaign, new units, and a graphics overhaul. If you really want alternate protagonists and multiplayer modes, then go away. There are plenty of games that offer that and more. Stop trying to hijack great classic series with your casual ways

[WhatsHisFace]

If this game uses a stealth system like Deus Ex 3/Metal Gear Solid 4... I'm not paying attention to this.

Thief was the pioneer of shadow-based stealth. They NEED to use it for this game.

[StalinsGhost]

What on earth is the point of ranting when they've released precisely zero details about the new game? It's taking the angry internet man to a whole new, even more proposterous level.

[GmanPro]

Its a preemptive strike. As I stated above in my original post. Sooner or later, someone is going to rush into this forum and start suggesting one or more of the things on my list. Its already started with the multiplayer and alternate protagonists.

[BoldEnglishman]

Regarding Dagger vs. Sword, I have to go with Sword. As mentioned before, while a dagger would seem more practical - it is a game, and a sword is so much more satisfying to wield than a dagger. I know, I know, pulling out a sword and running out like some sort of Myth Berserk is not very stealthy, but speaking from personal experience, there are times when I just want to break cover, pull out my sword, yell "Have at thee!" and hack away at the enemy, especially if they are undead. The idea of beheading Hammer Haunts, rather than merely "backstabbing" them appeals to me more, and I would imagine that it is very hard to decapitate a Haunt with a dagger.

Regarding the Pagans, I do not think they should have had as much presence in Thief: Deadly Shadows as they did have, and I would not like to see them very much in Thief 4 either. In both Thief: The Dark Project and Thief II: The Metal Age, you never really encounter Pagans head on (the Trickster, Victoria, the Chaos Beasts and such are clearly not pagans and should not be counted as pagans -- the Pagans in the first two games are strictly non-combatant). In the first two games, the Pagans are only really heard about through conversations, read about in letters, or through other pieces of peripheral information. Even the Mission Briefings, which would start with some lines from some piece of text, were usually along the lines of "Unattributed, Clay Tablet found in an abandoned Trickster temple". The Pagans are shunned by the mainstream society of The City, and their appearance in The City in Thief: Deadly Shadows was one area that I felt Deadly Shadows disappointed with. In Thief II, the Pagans lived in the forest areas outside of the City - it was extremely risky for Victoria's agents to enter the City, and they should not be found in the City in any sort of fixed organization. This is all just my personal preference, but to me, the Order of the Vine always operated in secrecy, and infiltrating into Pagan society in any way should be along the lines of difficulty that sneaking up on a Keeper should be... especially one that does not wish to be seen ;)

One thing I should point out, is that if this new game is to be set after Thief: Deadly Shadows, please do not bring the Keepers back in the fold. As of the ending of Deadly Shadows, they are for all intents and purposes kaput, and having them reappear (oh look, we found an ancient library with all of the books still intact!) is just going to be really cheap and nasty. Once again, my personal opinion :)

[TazmanianD]

Generality of things
I have another take on this that I think you missed and something that irritated my about TDS. In the original games, your mission goals were specific. "Find 1800 in loot," "Find 4 secrets," "Find so and so's music box," "Steal the special painting." In TDS, they dumbed them all down to, "Find 90% of the loot," or "Find 3 Special Loot Items". I don't want to find Special Loot Items. I want to find that Gold Leafed journal written by whoever and handed down for generations, or something like that. And I most definitely don't want them to twinkle like a freaking lighthouse.

[huzi73]

First of all.EM,I love you!Thanx for resurrecting Garret.Good luck on trying to match one of the most unique games of all time.No seriously,i mean it,GOOD LUCK!To all the EM devs constantly scanning the forums looking for what fans want,heres a piece of advice:Take EVERYTHING any whiner or pessimist says,with a pinch of salt.Kudos to EM for actually considering fan input.Anyway heres a few things I liked(story wise at least):
T 1 leaned more toward a chaotic story,betrayall,shock & awe,& ultimately redemption[the hammers and keepers were pretty pissed with Garret until he killed Constantine] and salvation).

T 2 was more about order,conspiracy,technology,upper class society & oppression then popped in Viktoria,and a bit of love?(with a women who ripped out his eye!?),loss & revenge.

T3 did focus on the keepers,which I liked,but also gave away a bit too much about them.Also had an open city,which though half done,was refreshing.

IMO,ION STORM based T3 on a story/concept which yelled out "hey!We're the new devs now,and to prove it,we'll throw in this uber badass villain that totally overshadows the events of the previous games (by undermining the power and significance of the Eye [making it 1 of 5 powerfull artefacts] & also by pretending the Mechanists from T2 didnt exist)"

As a game,T3 was good,but as a follow up on the series,especially story wise,it sucked

[Black Messiah]

ye, i missed the sword in thief 3 as hell :( ... both would be goot, a dagger AND a sword.
additional maybe throwing knifes? hmmm...

[rezorrand]

I have another take on this that I think you missed and something that irritated my about TDS. In the original games, your mission goals were specific. "Find 1800 in loot," "Find 4 secrets," "Find so and so's music box," "Steal the special painting." In TDS, they dumbed them all down to, "Find 90% of the loot," or "Find 3 Special Loot Items". I don't want to find Special Loot Items. I want to find that Gold Leafed journal written by whoever and handed down for generations, or something like that. And I most definitely don't want them to twinkle like a freaking lighthouse.
Completely forgot about that too. I found it to be a major annoyance as well. I like things with history rather than just "things", besides telling how much stuff you're going to find in game is a major turn down anyway for me. Game should leave things untold, it only gives something for the power-gamers to work on.

[ironpants]

Regarding Dagger vs. Sword, I have to go with Sword. As mentioned before, while a dagger would seem more practical

I suspect this is due to conditioning, i.e. the association with rogues and daggers started with D&D and has been reinforced by movies, etc. But Garrett is a thief, not a murderer.

Daggers are useful in two capacities: eating, and killing. Swords on the other hand, can be used to save your own life.

Thief does not allow killing on expert - but even on expert, the sword is our primary life insurance. If spotted and cornered, we can use it to ward off the guards until it's possible to escape! This is good gameplay; reloading your quicksave is not.

Thief 3 contemptibly threw out this dynamic, giving us a killing tool instead of a survival tool. Removing well established options is not only bad for gameplay, but makes no continuity sense. Why would someone who spent so much time rightly entrusting his life to a sword switch to carrying a dagger? Arrogance? Sudden contempt for life, including his own?

Carrying a dagger makes sense if you're an assassin, or a lady. In Thief, we are thieves. Our goal is to steal and live to steal another day.

Bring back the swordplay!

[Gan Xodos]

no, throwing knives would be too similar to assassins creed :S

oh and yeah, enough with the keepers...

[huzi73]

Ok,this is a longshot,but did anyone ever figure that the way TDS played out,it could have happened BEFORE T2?I mean.T2,had a more technologically advanced world,and mechanists,TDS pretended they (mechanists) didnt even exist,during and after T1,the hammers sure took a blow,but they still existed in T2,fortunately,the same cant be said for the mechanists,and also,the closing video in T2 doesnt exactly tie in with TDS..Its just my 2c..Corrections will be appreciated

[hawk047]

I would definatly like to see back the steampunk atmosphere, rope arrows and keep the game a stealth game as the others have done. This isnt a deathmatch game.

Also, I'd be thrilled for a good multiplayer feature for Thief!
If multiplayer would be too much work, let another company do the multiplayer.

[Frayga]

Oh, of course, introduce parkour in every damned game out there. Parkour in DX3 too, please. And make an RTS in which soldiers do parkour, and why not a new Monkey Island in which Guybrush free-runs every ship deck in the harbor.

Oh please.

Anyone has to admit that something such as parkour would be incredibly useful to a thief such as Garret. Parkour is an incredibly simple form of movement that is natural to human beings. Running is technically parkour in itself (get form Point A to Point B as fast as possible.) A thief can't exactly pull a bike out of his pants whenever he wants and escape from the guards. People have been moving like that for centuries, just never popularized until some french guy turned it into an art.

ANYWAY
Even though I didn't get a chance to play the first three Thief games, I thoroughly enjoyed TDS. I've always been intrigued by any form of assassin or thief. Here are a few of my ideas for the next Thief game:

Hand to Hand Combat: While long, engaging kungfu battles might be flashy, real martial artists take pride in taking down an opponent in as few moves as possible. It is possible and plausible that someone of Garret's experience will have perfected some techniques similar to moves from Krav Maga and Systema. Why not have a Mirror's Edge like system where you can either disarm or disable your opponent before the real fighting even starts?

Story: I have to agree, Garrett was an amazing character. His demeanor throughout the game incredibly intriguing. But I have an idea. First, Read the Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks, it expounds on the idea i am about to share. Then ponder this. What if you make Garrett a legend? The true embodiment of a thief in the night. Make him a rumor, something people either fear, or look to for hope. He is the best at what he does, and no one can defend from his everchanging, expert tactics. Then introduce the Apprentice. An aspiring thief that takes a job from a local tavern owner about a certain family heirloom that has been stolen by greedy Lord. The young rapscallion takes the job and creeps into the lord's bedchambers, only to find Garrett standing over a dead body, medallion(heirloom) in hand. Garrett slips into the night, followed by the young hero. Turn this thief, put him in the hands of an aging Garrett, and excellent story you do have. I know this might be a radical idea, and i'm probably going to get a bit of ridicule from a few of the hardcore, longterm fans, but i think it could be an excellent continuity to the Thief storyline i experienced in TDS.



More to follow later...

[Shadowspawn]

My few cents (from a day 1 Thief player)

Immersion - 1st person (at least an option). Good sound, minimal HUD.
NON-LINEAR. Usually, the best missions in T1 and T2 had many options as to entering and exitting the mission core. T3 mostly crushed this concept.
I'd like to see smarter AI. Make it a challenge to get past them. This could also reduce the desire to fight them, as they would team up better.
Outstanding story (as usual)
Give us the editor and SDK (at least at some point)

I'm SO looking forward to this.

[VIKTORIA]

It appears that we all pretty much desire the same things, ie. the return of original concepts as seen in T1 and T2. :cool:

[xXFl4meXx]

It appears that we all pretty much desire the same things, ie. the return of original concepts as seen in T1 and T2. :cool:

Amen...:cool:

[ironpants]

Dev team, please consider that no one in their right mind would go about sneaking / thieving in a manner which broadcasts what they're up to. T3 has Garrett stuck in this awkward, slightly crouched "I'm sneaking" pose as if using pantomime to tell a story. What the hell?

Can we please just have a dignified, normal upright carriage (as depicted in TDP cutscenes)? Enough with the gimmicky BS.

[FrankCSIS]

So the news is out, the forum is launched, and the logo is plastered. No more suggesting, no more insinuating, no more winking.

I understand there isn't much to say, discuss, or announce, just yet. I also understand the decision to involve, or at least gather, fans at such an early stage.

I think it's only fair to turn this opportunity around and make something clear right from the start. What are your intentions for Thief? Where, vaguely, are you going with the franchise?

I'm not asking this out of malice or skepticism, but rather for transparency's sake. The reasoning behind the query is quite simple. Thief is a game of exploration and stealth, backed by a specific atmosphere and a solid story. We haven't seen its kind in years, for better or worse, it's not for me to judge. Exploration is no longer encouraged, or desirable, in game designing, despite its obvious interactivity advantage. Stealth has been steadily merged with action with each passing stealth gaming franchise.

In this context, I can't help but be genuinely curious about the direction this project will be taking in its early development phase. Can we expect a game that will stay close to its roots and boldly attempt to produce once more a strong exploration and stealth title, at the risk of putting off some players not so much interested in this type of gaming, or must we expect the game to take a more generic approach, which philosophy would be to upset as little players as possible all the while introducing them to the Thief mythos?

Simply put, will it be a Thief game, or a game set in the Thief universe?

[comy]

Seriously?
:hmm:

Moving through sewers is a huge part of the thief world, and usually swimming is involved.

Seriously. Did it break the game in your opinion? One must look at the whole picture not only at one single aspect of it.
Besides I never said that swimming (this does not include sewer crawling, because sewers do not represent a swimming area, at least for me) is a bad thing. It's a nice perk, but hardly the cruicial one.

[Phaid]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/982/982148p1.html

I don't know, so far I don't like what I'm hearing.

"It's safe to say that there's an association of stealth games being boring and slow-paced. And we're fully aware of that. "

What? WHAT?
Great, brace yourselves for wall running, uber cool Matrix-style moves and Assassin's Creed - like badassery. And removing Garrett in favour of a sexeh chick like Faith from Mirror's Edge.
If that's what they plan to do (HOPE NOT), then they'd better cancel the development of this game. For the franchise's sake.

[kungfuasaurus]

I like to pretend to be important and think my opinion matters. I know it doesn't, but I'm posting my wishlist for Thief 4 (or Thi4f; Thief 3 wasn't Thi3f, which would've made more sense). Here it is:

First and foremost, louder foot steps! In the first two, every move you made was noticeable, but not so in T3. Sneaking up on people was way too easy.

More undead. There were a few zombies in the new one, but I want the skeletons back, too. More creepy stuff in general. Not necessarily undead, but definitely undead, and a larger variety of them.

At least on the harder difficulties, the AI should be able to see as far as you can. No more of this running 30 feet in front of them in full brightness and them not even noticing.

I think this would work better as a reboot than a sequel. Garrett's getting old (yet he should remain the player character), the keepers are probably no more, and people new to the series won't have the understanding of the Hammers and the Pagans. Which brings me to my next point.

I thought the story in T3 was awesome, but the whole factions deal didn't make a lot of sense. Why would the Pagans or the Hammers even consider allying themselves with Garrett (with the exception of what happened in T1 with the Hammers, since Constantine was a bigger threat than Garrett)? At the very least, come up with a better reason for it, but I'd just prefer they stay at enmity.

Bring back rope arrows and ditch the gloves. The gloves were interesting (and a bit cheesy), but rope arrows were so much cooler (albeit a bit hard to grab sometimes).

I think the idea of open world in Thief is great, but as many have said, in T3 it wasn't very well implemented. It felt like it was just a few constricted ally ways. I want a whole city, and with the technology of today (see Fallout 3, Assassins Creed), it's definitely possible to have a huge city, without restrictions (i.e. every building is accessible, every roof top is accessible, etc.) Maybe even have multiple cities like in Assassins Creed? It could be done, but I think it needs a lot of depth to work with Thief.

I definitely prefer 1st person in this game. I wouldn't be opposed to both, but T3 felt a bit clunky in 1st person, largely because you might turn your head and not your body, and while it works that way in reality, 1st person games typically just have the head stuck forward, which is much easier in terms of control; not only that, it feels right. I'd also prefer to just be a floating head in 1st person (like in the original).

One thing that I don't really understand is why games are too easy. I know that newer gamers probably won't play it if it's too hard, but why not just add an extra difficulty or two (REALLY hard and EXTREME!)?

Lastly, I think you should be able to swim. There doesn't have to be a lot of water, but why did Garrett forget how to swim in T3? He always did it before. It just seems like a silly way to restrict where he goes.

That's about it as far as I can think now for the list, one thing I did see, though.

Ok,this is a longshot,but did anyone ever figure that the way TDS played out,it could have happened BEFORE T2?I mean.T2,had a more technologically advanced world,and mechanists,TDS pretended they (mechanists) didnt even exist,during and after T1,the hammers sure took a blow,but they still existed in T2,fortunately,the same cant be said for the mechanists,and also,the closing video in T2 doesnt exactly tie in with TDS..Its just my 2c..Corrections will be appreciated

Actually, do you remember the mansion level, with the crazy lady that lost her pirate husband dude? There was a Mechanist record player in that level, I don't remember what it's called, but they actually mention it as a Mechanist device. A small mention, but a mention none the less.

[pha]

Oh dear...

[Janus]

Hello here,

sorry for my little english, i wanna suggest few things.

Differents mods : In little explication, its just for idea.

Offline mods :
Story : (easy, thief, master of shadow) The classical story with differents difficults. This is an epic and greatfull adventure.
Story Coop : The same but in friendship coop. Lan type
Story Versus : The story but with others charaters unlocks when you finish Story mod.
It maybe just for a few level its depending of the story and the charaters. It may a new story for extend the game.
Childhood : You play a little rogue in the city, it may the young garret.
Assassin : I know its not thief, but you may play an assassin and do some contract in the city. It could very fun.

Online mods :

Online Coop : The online story, for play with all the thief on the earth.
Thief versus guards : You have many map where you play thief and you have spy / robbery
and many player can play guards for stop thiefs.
Assassin : you play online assassin coop for kill a spécial people versus the guards.

Bye

[KharN]

MY Thief IV Wishlist..

Open World
Open up the game more, Give it a more "free roaming" feel were players can detach themselves from a 'Main quest' and do sub quests or just loot the local regions on their own, Have this Open map pretty Large.. Im not talking OBLIVION large but Include a couple of citys and focus on that rather than open land.. just give the player more immersion and freedom.. make every house, shop, castle free to break into each with diferent levels of difficulty.. and guard patrols to make things harder.. Id rather be allowed to do as i please and take on sub missions.. general looting or main quest when i wanted.. Oh and include the sewers (accessable).. there just as much a part of any city as anything else..

Keep Garrett
Yep If your going to do a thief game then keep garrett..

Fences
Sticking to the open world idea.. Include fences around the city who can contract you main quest missions or sub quest missions..

New Equipment
Keep the Rope arrow.. But also include Grappling hook.. And have a limit on carry weight.. For example.. if i take rope arrows i cant take a grappling hook also.. Both create different methods of completing missions and accessing areas.. Rope arrows relying heavily on location your trying to reach having a wooden pillar.. Grappling hook for getting onto roofs or balconys without need for reliance on wood.. Downfall of grappling hook is it creates more nosie when used.. and if your not carefull, alerting guards in the process.. Oh yea and get rid of them stupid gloves..

Keep the Detection bar from Thief 1/2
DO NOT get rid of the bar that shows how "hidden" your char is.. it was the most helpfull thing about thief for me and i think it was great so keep it..

Keep it themed
Like the other thief games.. (im talking 1 and 2) keep it set in that medieval/steampunk enviroment.. keep the quirky mechanist stuff and the hammers ect.. the wierd cults and churches.. they were all part of what made thief unique and interesting.. dont bring it up to date or follow suit from that shameless excuse for a game named thief 3..

[huzi73]

Thief 4 needs to be exactly what T1-T2 was,with todays gfx,todays sound,and if it can be done,a city which is open,yet not sandbox like,(see the mapping out the city thread in ttlg forums.)load screens at the start of the game,which places Garret into the city,thereafter,he makes his way to location x,or mansion y,and "activates it"bringing up a load screen for the mission to begin.No in mission loads,no in city loads.No Gta sized city,take inspiration from asassins creed's large citie(s).1 decent sized city,with a few locations outside the city walls.Everything in the city must be hand placed,and not randomly generated

[acridrose]

Big thread, filled with ideas!



Offline mods :
Story Coop : The same but in friendship coop. Lan type
Story Versus : The story but with others charaters unlocks when you finish Story mod.
It maybe just for a few level its depending of the story and the charaters. It may a new story for extend the game.


Be careful here, Janus- remember a coop game requires a lot of balancing- research into RE5, and how they had to approach a fully coop game. Also bare in mind thief is a singleplayer experience revolving around a character who is clearly self-reliant and able (and wants) to work solo.

A diverse single-player experience mission-based is all I want ;)

[Durinda D'Bry]

To just partially say what I think I better focus on pros/cons of introduced in Thief 3 aspects (not prioritized):

Please do:
- Loot glint (it's stupid in Thief 1/2 to get something attractive and stuck with it in hands without chance to avoid so much noise when put it back; it's stupid to paint something valuable). But it's better to be configurable.
- Complex lockpicking. But probably it is better to not move character exactly on front of lock and zoom. Disallow him to pick from chest back side. Also make picking more notable for AIs.
- Key autoselection. But let's player decide is it OK (probably disable by default).
- Dagger instead of sword. Or at least make it mission dependent - but I'm not sure if there is need to be slasher missions.
- More complicate blackjacking. But in Thief 3 sometimes it is too complex, and I cannot blackjack sitting person. And it should be possible to blackjack after using flashbomb.
- Allow lean forward. And never move player how they did in Thief 3 - I better used movement then.
- Zombies were nice in Thief 3, really more dangerous opponents because they moved faster.
- Improve AI. In Thief 3 it sometimes was better (investigation for instance), sometimes worse - AI did crazy things like suicide near fireplace.
- Make player movement realistic but better simple and without that terrible sickness I saw in Thief 3.
- Make graphic on modern level but without need to buy high-end hardware for $$$$ (as it was with Thief 3). And make performance/quality tunable.
- Return rope arrows.
- Return swimming and diving.
- More thief highways.

I'm not sure about:
- Missions and free play between missions. But anyway difficulty level should be possible to set for all content.

Please do not do:
- Faction status. Never was finished idea in Thief 3 anyway. Was stupid to kill rustmites and shoot to cornerstones.
- Too small loading zones.
- Climbing gloves. I know it is headache for designers anyway and reason of player madness.
- Hammer obscurantism - they destroyed most of technical progress artefacts since Thief 2 in Thief 3. Keep them not surpass mechanists but on good level. Let's allow nobles and middle-class to use technical progress in their houses.
- Too stupid and annoying physics. Better make it simple. But cause the chain of destructions in HalfLife 2 and Dark Messiah was nice...
- Crumpled final mission. IMHO comparing with Maw of Chaos and Sabotage at Soulforge last mission in Thief 3 was absolute failure.
- That crazy: "oh, I was robbed" and then no actions. If AI was robbed it should alert guard or so.

[KharN]

the only way i could see any form of multiplayer was if there was a "tiam trial" mode for online play.. Where each were given the same mission and had to set of and compelte it without helping one another.. and get the item first and back.. like a race.. scores for detection ect.. but even then.. bad idea.. i agree its single player experience an it better stay that way.. EIDOS IM TALKING TO YOU

[geekytom]

My big wish is options.

That’s what I loved about the original games, the fact that you could break in to a house in a multitude of ways.

Want to pick the lock then pick the lock. Want to sneak in on the second floor then climb a rope arrow. Want to start at the bottom then go in through the sewers.

I think you could really build on this. Maybe the house has an hourly delivery which you can discover and sneak in the back of the horse and cart or what ever. Maybe there is a REALLY secret entrance that you can only discover by listening to a conversation by the guards.

Maybe you could bribe a guard to open a door or window for you.

I know I have mentioned this before and some people will get annoyed with it but I always thought that Thief’s should be nimble, agile creatures, so a Mirrors edge style jumping/climbing system would be wicked. It wouldn’t be a necessity to play like that but I think it could be an option. Ie you could enter the house by scaling the house next door and jumping from roof to roof.

[tender19]

At last. My favourite game. I'm gonna try to keep this brief, and sorry for my english, if bad. I'm a fan of only the first two games, the third one failed in many aspects:

- Physics. In Thief 1-2 I could feel the blackjack hitting guards and object, smashing things that clanked, I was actually there. Well TDS was a step backwards, blackjack was just a swingy-thingy, the guards collapsed before I hit them. I think, this is the fault of the 3rd person perspective.

- Revelation. I don't know, how other players see this, but I think the narration of the Thief games was great because they didn't reveal so much; eg the Keepers were cool, because we didn't know, who they are, what their secrets are, and look what happens in TDS: we could explore the Keeper Compound. Fail. And Garrett in 3rd person view, again. Better keep the storyline hidden, in notes, conversations, cutscenes (only between missions, I hated the in-game engine cutscenes in TDS).

- Lack of complex and different levels: well, Thief 1 and 2 had a lot to explore in various scenes: surreal, gothic and urban settings, every one of them was superb, TDS was a bit monochromic.


- Graphics: Less art, more cutting edge solutions, that is not the way. I don't want to see too much blur, bloom, HDR, glowing smoke-clouds, and so... Thief: The Dark Project has a steampunk-fantasy background, but in a very realistic manner, stick to it! Also consider to throw out the big, annoying HUD.

- Tools and possibilities: c'mon! Replacing rope arrows with those gloves: FAIL! Also, I like to swim, to explore many secret areas.


What I except from Thief 4 (not ThiAf, of course, you T4ffers):

- Stephen Russel as the main protagonist's (that is Garrett, right?) voice. And he could do the voice for that shy servant and the drunken guard as well (I think he actually did those in the first three).

- Eric Brosius for sound design and music. Not less.

- Innovations, but don't sacrifice what actually worked in the first two. Nowadays, game developers think, that throwing out methods that actually work = innovation. No, it's not. I want complexity, immersion, greatness, long gameplay (customizability and mod-friendly game would be appreciated, but optional, if it would ruin originality or take too much time and effort).

- Back to the roots for the gameplay part and setting, but go for the innovations in the details of the storyline, let Garrett continue his selfish ways, but with new threats, new goals, new enemy fractions. But don't categorise them, like in TDS, that is sooo GTA.

- Developers: play Thief games. Read this thread, learn, and make it sticky.

That's it for now, maybe I'll contribute more later.

[SouthAfrica]

Which of the Thief games was your favourite, which one was your least favourite - and why?
What key feature(s) did you like best about the game series?

Do you hope that T4 will retain these elements, or do you prefer to see something totally new?

1) First and Second
2) Third thief was the least favourite because it was nothing like the first two, and it was nothing what thief should be like, one of the best things about thief was the secrets it hid, you didnt know where he got his supplies from, you didnt know where the keepers stayed, with this you just simply ambled down the street right into secret organisations and secret armouries.. was so bad.. also the thing about thief that was so amazing is every time i played the game, i finished it about 4 or 5 times, both 1 and 2, you would finish the lever differently because you would take a different approach to it, because you could, you were free to do what you want.. thief 3 was horrible, i played it once and finished just because thief 2 is my favourite game of all time

dont go be a sony online entertainment, look what happened to them and star wars galaxies.. just take what was simple and what was good and lets see that again

3) i would like you guys to retain the freedom and the essence of the game.. which was the secrecy.. so little was known about garret and so little was told, as well as having missions seem like they on the other sides of the world was great, thief 3 removed all this, it was like playing an 11 year olds psp game

[SouthAfrica]

Revelation. I don't know, how other players see this, but I think the narration of the Thief games was great because they didn't reveal so much; eg the Keepers were cool, because we didn't know, who they are, what their secrets are, and look what happens in TDS: we could explore the Keeper Compound. Fail. And Garrett in 3rd person view, again. Better keep the storyline hidden, in notes, conversations, cutscenes (only between missions, I hated the in-game engine cutscenes in TDS).




Glad to see i wasnt the only one who felt like this :cool:

[Botlas]

The Dark Project is my overall favorite, mainly because it was so fresh and innovative and had really good atmosphere. Plus, it had a great storyline that was really unpredictable. The levels were eerie with enough mysticism and mystery that you really weren't sure what would happen next, and indeed, things got pretty crazy at the end.

In terms of gameplay, the Metal Age was my favorite. It really just tweaked the gameplay of the Dark Project slightly, but the improvements made a big difference. Overall, it boils down to having the best level design. No more annoying zombie levels, and the levels were just bigger and better and less linear.

Deadly Shadows was my least favorite. I really didn't like the "central hub" design of the City and the way you had to sneak through the City just to get to your mission. I also disliked the new shop system that let you carry around a truckload of potions and specialty arrows. The story also wasn't as good as the previous two. While I didn't mind the change from shortsword to dagger, I didn't like that a specific backstabbing animation was added and that the dagger was the default weapon.

The key feature of the game is obviously the stealth system. Unlike other stealth games like MGS, which more or less require staying out of an enemies line of sight, the ability to hide in right in front of someone if you were in the shadows was great. It added a lot of tension when someone was walking by, and you'd be holding your breath hoping he didn't bump into you or notice you. Coupled with that is the fact that Garrett is a wimp in a fight. Garrett isn't Snake and shouldn't be able to turn around and kill all the guards if he is caught, and it should stay that way.

What I'd like to see changed is the AI. Deadly Shadows had more or less the same AI as the first two games, and it's getting a little aged. Guards should have more complex searching abilities and shouldn't give up quite so easily. Using Metal Gear as an example again, the guards don't just walk around looking left and right, they'll look in obvious hiding places. If you've crawled under something to hide, they have the ability to find you there and attack you. There shouldn't be any "safe" places to hide where you know you won't get caught.

[bobby27]

Greetings!
I felt compelled to register upon hearing about thief 4, thanks for keeping a good series going eidos! I hope thief 4 learns some mistakes, and improves upon the generally great game that was thief 3 so here are some thoughts, let me know what you guys think.

Thief3 was atmospherically excellent, with a few really fantastic levels (talking shalebridge cradle... definitely the cream of the crop, one of the best levels in any game period), but was hindered by two problems... the first being the issue around memory limitations for the unreal engine for the xbox (read: levels that were small, lots of loads, etc...) and also pretty low textures... again a problem due to the xbox.

Compared to thief 2, these small levels really cut down on the immersion... the levels were still excellent in total, but segmented like they were it was a bit annoying. Fortunately the atmosphere was kept up with excellent sound and I hope sound is given proper treatment again. In particular, I have a question about the sound: in thief3, EAX:HD was used throughout to do sound effects... now this ins't 2002 anymore, and EAX is kind of not a viable effect you can rely on anymore... a lot of people have dumped creative so my question is will you guys tailor sound effects to all soundcards? There is PLENTY of processing power these days with dual, quad, etc.. core processors so can we get a heads up on if you'll support effects for all cards at good quality?

The last bit is to go back to the level load and texture issue- level load is acceptable if you really must use it to maintain a degree of level quality. If it is just for the console limitations, then that is not well received. The texture issue is important too- there are far fewer limits for the PC version, so please make high res textures first and foremost and just downres them for the console... don't limit the PC needlessly, everyone knows that PCs gain the upper hand after a "generation" so you don't have to feel like you need to keep the quality low to please the console people.

Thoughts? Thanks.

[bobby27]

oh and another thing- I am deeply concerned about any kind of DRM that gets in the way... eg: the limited installs, that kind of garbage. Will you guys use something like STEAM? I have become a big fan of steam, because it offers something in exchange for rights management. Does this make sense?

[GmanPro]

I don't have a fast internet connection so STEAM only prevents me from playing my games which I paid for. It doesn't do anything positive for me

[bobby27]

I don't have a fast internet connection so STEAM only prevents me from playing my games which I paid for. It doesn't do anything positive for me
You are in the minority, and I never said anything about it being steam only..

[Ice1019]

I don't think the overall idea of an open City was so much of a bad idea, but it was implemented disastrously. The sections were so small that you could wait 1 minute for the level to load, run across a level in 15 seconds, and then spend another minute looking at a loading screen. Also, getting caught and leaving a section meant that as soon as you returned, no matter how long it had been, all the guards who found you would be right there at the entrance the next time you came by.

I think the smarter AI is a must, as is Garrett's ability to disappear in shadow.

I would ask EM to hesitate before wanting to implement too many modern stealth game components. What separates Garrett from all the other guys is that he isn't a ninja or a soldier. Obviously, he's in it for the money. Murder to him is a vulgarity, beneath masters like him. If you kill a guard, it's because you[I] want it simpler for [I]you[/I.

There's a great article at Four Fat Chicks called Stealing Beauty that's all about how Thief is in many ways the most and least violent game out there. I never quite managed it, but there are guys (probably on this forum) that can beat Thief without even using the blackjack. If you use violence, it's because [I]you wanted to use it, not because the game made you.

I think more than FPS versus TPS or open City vs. missions, or even Garrett vs. someone new, it's this kind of open-ended gameplay that makes Thief, Thief. TDS screwed the pooch because they tried to make the gameplay more like Splinter Cell on an engine that couldn't handle the demands put upon it by the devs. It played on rails, and we all said boo.

[Ice1019]

I think Thief 3 had a few more problems than that, the missions (aside from the Cradle) weren't as fun to me. They were just smaller and not as open-ended. I'm not a big fan of the grave-robbing from the Dark Project either, The Metal Age to me is where EM should really be looking.

I think the positives from Thief: DS are pretty spot on, the audio was great (Eric Brosius working his magic) and the atmosphere was pretty cool, drawing a little more from the Dark Project than anything else. Keep bringing the analysis, bobby27. This is good stuff for the devs to read.

[samcoarse]

Not sure if this is an echo of previous repliers or not but here is an idea I posted on the TTLG forums after I found out about the new endeavor of eidos.

"I'd prefer it if this time they stuck more with the fundamentals of thieving. I'm a huge fan of Thief 2 and when T3 came out there was the noticeable aftershocks of gaming perfection still echoing from its ancestor in game play, storyline somewhat, themes etc, but there was something a bit off about it (granted I played the xbox version and you could see rune's radiating through walls and it was graphically a mess). I'm surprised however, to read one person claiming that the supernatural isn't something that should be debated when creating this new installment.

One thing that threw me in T2 was the section with the apemen?? It came pretty much out of the blue, I have an open mind and when I started playing I was entrapped in the mystique of sneaking through these mechanic hybrid medieval manors, chapels, the cobblestone electricity lighted streets, art galleries, the police station!! The Gaul! The combination was pristine and then the apemen section demanded to be endured. I can understand it was a plot line but I could have accepted them easier without the sudden fantasy turn of events in the game, perhaps with another, more human species?

T3 had the same issue with what I thought were rather crude characters. the humanoid animals really broke the suspense and turned it into a less immersing experience. Some of you may disagree entirely, I can understand that's your concept of a fine gaming experience but I think it took away from the actual core ideology of being a highly cynical, thumb biting, pre-meditated thief that T2 portrayed so well. Perhaps veiling a fact that there were limits on what the engine or imagination could put forward and replacing it with a mild storyline.

I can handle the supernatural in small quantities like the ghostly knight patrolling the catacombs in T2 but too much like the abandoned orphanage that also used to be a mental institute in T3 brought on my usual cynical mind-frame. So yea, I personally wouldn't mind a divorce from the fantasy for a turn towards the specifics of thieving, lockpicks, climbables, pickpocketing and stealth and towards a certain realism in T4.

Everyone has something valuable on them, every house has its stash. I'm sure if you delve deep enough you might even find a storyline.. ;)"

Hope this proves helpful.

[Contradictio In Terminis]

My thoughts for THI4F.

I think it's idiotic that you can't knock them out if they are alerted to you. People get knocked out in fights all the time and they are most certainly alerted to the presence of the one who just KO'd them. Granted, I feel that if you are face to face with the person that it should not knock them out, however, if you come up behind them while they are still searching it should knock them out. I also think that a head shot with an arrow should be the end of it, even if they are alerted to your presence...I don't care how on guard you are, if you get shot in the face with a broadhead arrow, you are going down...bottom line. Those points would add to the realism. Also, with the flashbombs, I do not think that attacking them after tossing one should snap them out of it, in fact, if you flashbomb someone you should be able to then blackjack them as they would not be able to see you trying to hit them.

When a guard or someone flat out spots you I don't think that they should ever stop looking for you...

Doors, they should swing and act like real doors. this would make the game much harder and would add to your reliance on stealth to play.

Health...when your health is running low I think that you should move slower, the screen should darken and the sound should become dampened. I don't really see this happening because it would make gameplay too "difficult" for most people and so the sales would drop...

Remember in the first two games when you would beat on things with your blackjack to make a guard investigate so that you could sneak past him? they should bring this back...a couple of times while playing DS I tried this, of course it didn't work.

You should be able to grab people and walk around with them like in Splinter Cell.

The Trickster should definitely show up again, or at least have mention...remember how he was taunting you in the last part of DS?

I'll think of more later.

[Flashart]

Keeping things broad I'd like.

The ability to "commando crawl", you'd practically be able to sniff Benny's socks as you slid softly by.

What would be great is a city of "Oblivion/ Fallout" proportions, as much exploration as possible.

More rooftops.

An editor, if it were a choice between this or co-op it'd be an editor everytime. Some of the FM's are truly inspired.

Rope Arrows (Of course)

One absolute scary level (I do think "The Cradle" is Thief's "Smoke On The Water" or "Stairway To Heaven".

It'd be nice if somewhere there could be a nod to the genius that is Terry Pratchett. He's a fellow Taffer, and hasn't had the best of times lately. I reckon he'd love a hidden away mention.

[Corvin25]

Thief 1 and 2 were wonderful.... please use these two masterpieces as an example of the gameplay we want, Eidos. :)

And no matter what, don't "dumb down" the game for console players. TDS was simply too easy. :(

[xxcoy]

There was a survey (http://www.eidosforum.de/showthread.php?t=154) some time ago in the German Eidos Forums concerning the wishes of German fans for a possible Thief 4. Translated it (as far as I was able to).

Mostly, people wished for a thrilling atmospheric story and the typical 'Thief atmosphere' as in Thief 1 and 2 (87%). Apart from that most of them wanted to play Garrett again as main character. Most of them disliked the small levels in TDS and the transitions inbetween most of them. They preferred large levels as 'Partytime' or 'Assassins'. (both 82%)

A cleverly (re)acting AI, some extraordinary level types (f.e. 'Shalebridge Cradle' or 'Framed' on expert) and factions as used in TDS (as well as Downwinders and mages from Thief Gold) were important to most, too. (75-65%)

Few wished for extraordinary opponents as robots or monsters or for rpg elements, even less for a great graphic design, especially not if it would lead to smaller levels again. (25-30%)

Only 8% would like Thief to take place in a modern era.

http://s5b.directupload.net/images/090514/temp/4lump4gn.jpg (http://s5b.directupload.net/file/d/1794/4lump4gn_jpg.htm)

[Corvin25]

The people who are interested in Thief 4 will not be the same ones who play Halo on Xbox Live. Just remember that.

... I would like to see some truly artistic settings though. Pagan and Hammerite areas have potential for truly dark "oil painting" environments.

[VIKTORIA]

This is a fab thread, keep sharing your thoughts and wishes for T4. :thumb:

[Mikes170]

The first games where fantastic, they was new and so Atmospheric. You are so lucky to have made garret he is legendary and every time he speaks he just makes me smirk, But there was nothing better than waiting for dark turn the lights down low and load up the game, Atmosphere, Sly, humor, fear, and really intelliegent A.I your laughing, Open maps would be good if you can plan your routes, You can get to know your city like the back of your hand, work out which is the best way to go. rich big old houses with lots of loot, or a slummy area? but rooftops was always good!?

[tender19]

I have some additional wishes.

- Thief 3 had these swirling purple fog / cloud effects... please, don't do this in Thief 4. Thief is industrial, artistic, and realistic in many ways, fog effects fit into dream-like fantasy worlds.

- Loved the backward-speaking Victoria effect for the sound of ghosts, I'd welcome that again.

[Maleficen]

I hope u will do ur best to make this a very long, non restricted, with lots to steal and break in, kill hide, with lovely bows and arrows, blades, talents, power buffs, cloths etc etc etc game

I just loved thief 3, (but didnt like the end game pittyfully) BUT it was a lil restricted.

Should be able to break in everywhere and steal, lots of secret places

Liked the engine, good graphics :)

Im waiting impatiently for it arrival !.................:flowers:

Make it non linear, all freedoms, grooovy fights and ambushes, make it perfect !!!!!!!!!

[Contradictio In Terminis]

One absolute scary level (I do think "The Cradle" is Thief's "Smoke On The Water" or "Stairway To Heaven".


Amen to that! I actually noticed that I started playing the game more durning that day when I was on that level back when the game first came out!:lol:

[Henke123]

I hope there will be at least one big mansion/castle with lots of secret passages, traps, puzzles and hidden vaults to plunder

I really love that kind of stuff :D

[TazmanianD]

Few wished for extraordinary opponents as robots or monsters or for rpg elements, even less for a great graphic design, especially not if it would lead to smaller levels again.
That is an interesting survey. Perhaps someone should put a copy up here.

I'm a bit confused about the graphic design though. Why would people not want that? I guess it depends what that means to you.

I wouldn't want Thief to be an RPG, but I liked what I consider some minor RPG elements that were in TDS. I liked the fact that Garrett gained a few new abilities over the course of the game and I liked that you had a persistent city with a persistent personal inventory with the ability to visit various shops to buy things.

I did like having the robots and cameras since they really added to the Steampunk atmosphere and I liked that there are some fantastical elements in Thief with some monsters, but I think Thief 1 over did it. I'd like at least a little bit of those.

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

Dunno if this has been said...

I'd like to be able to PLACE OBJECTS DOWN. It sucked big time that I would pick something up and be unable to place it back. All I could do is toss it, which would make a loud thud and alert nearby people. So yeah, I hope I can quietly put objects down in Thiaf.

If this was already in the game then I damn sure didn't know about it.

[Tucrila]

I am die hard fan of Thief series, well in fact i´m fan of Thief 1 and 2.
I dont even consider Thief 3 a Thief game because honestly they screwed up pretty badly on that one!:(

I think that what they did to Thief 3 was horrible! I want Looking glass studios back!:mad2:

There are some things that you just cant take out of thief, here goes a few of them:

- Thief is a first person game, period! Putting the game on third person only makes it looks like another dumb third person game, which is exactly what THIEF 3 is!

- You cant just take out the rope arrows, c'mmon!:scratch:
- Thief is a PC game, not an XBOX game or a PS3 game.:rasp:
- What in the hell happened to the cutscenes??:eek: The cutscenes were beautiful and immersive in Thief 1 and 2. Please put back this classic cutscenes! I honestly dont know what the people who developed Thief 3 were thinking:confused:

- Thief is always about a good and dark history! Not a lame one like Thief 3!:hmm:

I think these are a few things that needs to be reminded for this new THIEF game, please please dont make it like THIEF 3!!

Thief games provide us a unique enviroment and it is such an original game, please dont screw it up like the people in ION STORM did it, it broke my heart:(

I hope the developers from Thief 4 will be able to make an excellent job and this new game will live up to the THIEF LEGEND!:D

[GmanPro]

^^ I'm with you. You know, I had thought previously that Thief is a very specific type of game. And that developing a new one would be pretty straight forward, but some of the posts I've read on this forum really have me worried. I hope the devs know what they are doing.

[acridrose]

move to:
Wishlist/Thoughts/Suggestions for T4 (general discussion)
or another appropriate thread, thanks :lol:

And Tucrila,
Eidos Mont have no plans to 'screw up' in their project you will be pleased to know :) - the T3 non-ingame cutscenes were not terrible, this has already been discussed. And so have your other points, hehe. Oh well.

[Tucrila]

move to:
Wishlist/Thoughts/Suggestions for T4 (general discussion)
or another appropriate thread, thanks :lol:

And Tucrila,
Eidos Mont have no plans to 'screw up' in their project you will be pleased to know :) - the T3 non-ingame cutscenes were not terrible, this has already been discussed. And so have your other points, hehe. Oh well.

Do you even know what i am talking about? I´m referring to the cutscenes between the missions in which Garret gives us all the briefing about the next mission. If you are not aware of that, those cutscenes were replaced by plain text only in Thief 3, and it really sucked!!

Oh and Eidos montreal really screwed up with Far cry 2 so why wouldn't they do so in this game:wave::nut::lol::rasp:

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

Amazing how all the fans pretty much want the same thing. It's ridiculous that they actually managed to screw up that third one so as to make every original fan angry. I'd like to think Eidos Montreal would have a cake easy time making Thief 4 seeing as everybody agrees on quite a lot of what they want. And just looking at how much people hated TDS should let them know what NOT to do.

Hell hath no fury like a Thief fan scorned.

[Pipinowns]

It's ridiculous how you guys call yourselves fans, yet all you do is cry on these forums about how much you hate Thief 3 and how you want Thief 4 to be like the first two.

[Subjective Effect]

No, that's one of the more sensible whines tbh. T1 and 2 are superior games so whats the beef?

[Pipinowns]

Thief one and two are pretty old games. Thief 4 will not be successful unless they also put it on consoles. So fans saying they shouldn't make them for consoles are selfish *****es who'd rather have the game THEIR way, then having it essentially exactly the same and for the company who made it to make any money.

I don't own a console, and I never plan too, but I think if Thief 4 doesn't go to consoles, than it will be the last game in the series. Die hard fans suck compared to the console kids who buy the product, and don't cry about it. The only real difference would be the 3rd person view, which is only an extra feature.

[Tucrila]

It's ridiculous how you guys call yourselves fans, yet all you do is cry on these forums about how much you hate Thief 3 and how you want Thief 4 to be like the first two.

Well what the hell do you want me to do??
Go to the Eidos montreal's office and call a meeting??:lmao:

Yes i cry, i will cry as loud as i can so i dont get to see another crappy lazy made game like Thief 3!

I hope Eidos Montreal has someone from the developer's team reading this posts.

YES I WILL CRY!!!:mad2:

[Tucrila]

Thief one and two are pretty old games. Thief 4 will not be successful unless they also put it on consoles. So fans saying they shouldn't make them for consoles are selfish *****es who'd rather have the game THEIR way, then having it essentially exactly the same and for the company who made it to make any money.

I don't own a console, and I never plan too, but I think if Thief 4 doesn't go to consoles, than it will be the last game in the series. Die hard fans suck compared to the console kids who buy the product, and don't cry about it. The only real difference would be the 3rd person view, which is only an extra feature.

OK, firstable, whoever is ok with the third person view on Thief is not a Thief fan and does not understands the concept of the game. Alright i agree and i also think that the game must be available for other platforms but that doesn't mean that they can pervert the game's spirit! Thief was born on the PC and it will always be a PC game. Like people said before in this forum, games like Mirror's Edge are the proof that you dont have to change anything in a game just to bring to another platform, you should leave the game as it is!
Thief was a pretty sucessul game until they messed up with that third person bull****. Thief is not an action game. Most of the kids today wont have the patience to play thief because it is not an action game. So why bother bringin it to the consoles?? Really? The true fans of Thief are PC gamers.

[vasanx]

It's ridiculous how you guys call yourselves fans, yet all you do is cry on these forums about how much you hate Thief 3 and how you want Thief 4 to be like the first two.

And what is the point you're tryin to make here?

So you like TDS, huh? Yes? No? What is it then?

And we are ridiculous because.....???

When a game is crappy, you complain. That's what people do. How hard is that to understand?

Of course we want T4 to be like TDP and TMA. What else do we want it to be like?

Talk bout the world's most unnecessary post ever.

[GmanPro]

Thief one and two are pretty old games. Thief 4 will not be successful unless they also put it on consoles. So fans saying they shouldn't make them for consoles are selfish *****es who'd rather have the game THEIR way, then having it essentially exactly the same and for the company who made it to make any money.

I don't own a console, and I never plan too, but I think if Thief 4 doesn't go to consoles, than it will be the last game in the series. Die hard fans suck compared to the console kids who buy the product, and don't cry about it. The only real difference would be the 3rd person view, which is only an extra feature.

There's a huge difference between making a PC game and porting it to console -- and making a console game and porting it to PC. When people here say that they don't want the game made for consoles, they mean that it should be made for PC and then ported to consoles. Understand?

[Blue Sky]

You know, until this thread existed telling them to not screw it up, I think they were gonna screw it up.

[GmanPro]

Its a good thing we were here to put them back on track then eh?

[Pipinowns]

Just so you know, I understand about the port bit. I'm pretty sure they won't make a bad PC port, because TDS wasn't.

The true fans may be the PC gamers, but a lot of money comes from console kids. All I'm saying is, if you are a hardcore fan of the thief series (like me), then you like the entire series, not just the first two.

I also hope the game is pure for PC gamers, but many of the best gaming series (Max Payne, anyone?) are third person. In fact, I've noticed that third person games are the one of the few that you can get into the character. In Half Life Gordan Freeman has no personality. In Far Cry Jack Carver is extremely forgettable, even with his cliche name. But in Hitman, even though there is little character development, you feel like you KNOW agent 47, because you are constantly watching HIS acts. I've always felt like 3rd person games are a higher form of art than 1st person games, while 1st person games are for gamers who NEED to be part of the action and don't give a damn about art, plot, and characters, and 3rd person games (or at least some of them, like TDS) are for people who want to watch a great story unfold in front of their eyes.

Also, what's up with all the hate for the new generation? I realize it's "cool" to say the new generation of kids suck as soon as you get out of college, but seriously, I'm sure there are plently of interesting kids out there who can't wait to play a new stealth action game on consoles. Also, Thief 3 did a great job of giving you the choice between ghosting and going murder-friendly. As a purist, I ghosted my way throughout, but sometimes I like to go back and do it a little differently (I.E. kill em all), which actually makes the game better. If killing them all is easier, you will be tempted not to ghost, which actually makes ghosting harder, and therefore making fans of the game have a more difficult expeirence.

Anyways, just so you all know, this crap about the 3rd person view sucking and only an idiotic "console-tard' would argue about it has been milked to death on these forums, so I'm just saying that it's about time to shut the **** up about it.

Open mind. Invest.

[GmanPro]

Just so you know, I understand about the port bit. I'm pretty sure they won't make a bad PC port, because TDS wasn't.

The true fans may be the PC gamers, but a lot of money comes from console kids. All I'm saying is, if you are a hardcore fan of the thief series (like me), then you like the entire series, not just the first two.

I actually like TDS so...


I also hope the game is pure for PC gamers, but many of the best gaming series (Max Payne, anyone?) are third person. In fact, I've noticed that third person games are the one of the few that you can get into the character.


HA! Now that is just your opinion. Third person exclusive games, in MY opinion, are bad. And Max Payne is not to be counted amongst the greatest gaming series of all time either.


In Half Life Gordan Freeman has no personality.


Done on purpose you know. I like it better that way.


In Far Cry Jack Carver is extremely forgettable, even with his cliche name. But in Hitman, even though there is little character development, you feel like you KNOW agent 47, because you are constantly watching HIS acts. I've always felt like 3rd person games are a higher form of art than 1st person games, while 1st person games are for gamers who NEED to be part of the action and don't give a damn about art, plot, and characters, and 3rd person games (or at least some of them, like TDS) are for people who want to watch a great story unfold in front of their eyes.


First person games are about immersion man. You can have deep, compelling stories in first person games. Deus Ex is the greatest game ever made by every scale and rating imaginable. And it was first person.

...rest of post...

Actually, the industry as a whole has grown up. And its now "cool" and "hip" to be a console 'tard. We are just trying to reverse this horrible trend. BY NOT LETTING THIEF GET DILUTED WITH JUNK THAT IT DOES NOT NEED!

____________

You know, there is something horribly wrong with this industry when an 18 year old gets labeled as an old school, hardcore elitist of an old generation.

[FrankCSIS]

are for people who want to watch a great story unfold in front of their eyes.

Games are not meant to be witnessed.

As for first person being impersonal, outside of the obvious immersion advantage, let me point you in the direction of Tex Murphy, quite possibly one of the most sympathetic, lovable and unforgettable adventure game character, who we essentially get to know from a first person view.

Same with JC Denton, who, despite being cold, emotionless and opinionless (as to not interfere with the player's own opinions), is instantly recognisable, and liked all around.

3rd person view exists for pure physical and mechanical reasons. They make certain complex moves a lot simpler to merge with controls, but I won't believe they add anything to player immersion, or for our experience of the story.

[vasanx]

Thief one and two are pretty old games.

You don't say.

Thief 4 will not be successful unless they also put it on consoles.

As much as i hate to agree with you, you're right. Piracy will kill Thief if it was released on the PC alone. So, despite that Stephane dude being all dodgy and sh*t, we already know the answer. Yes, T4 will be available on the console.

So fans saying they shouldn't make them for consoles are selfish *****es who'd rather have the game THEIR way, then having it essentially exactly the same and for the company who made it to make any money.

Saying don't make T4 for consoles is wrong. Calling them selfish is one thing but selfish *****es?

Why are you spazzin out on whether they make money or not? You on the staff, is it?

So, it's not ok for them to lose money but it's ok for us, the consumer to get ripped off?

I don't own a console, and I never plan too
ahahahahhaha.

All this smack and you don't even own a console. Then why bother? You don't even know what it feels like to be ripped off on the console and that's why you don't see where the others are coming from. Calling them selfish *****es really makes you look thick now.


but I think if Thief 4 doesn't go to consoles, than it will be the last game in the series.

Well, not really when you think about what happened to Alone in the Dark. A game that was released on the console first and every game review website trashed it before the game even got to the PC.

The devs actually vowed to never make such a game following that. So, what i'm sayin is makin T4 for the console by itself is not gonna help if the game sucks or in the case of AitD, considered to suck.


Die hard fans suck compared to the console kids who buy the product, and don't cry about it. The only real difference would be the 3rd person view, which is only an extra feature.

The fu*k did that come from? Console kids rule, huh? You 12?

And by the way, third person in Thief is not an extra feature. It's a disservice!

Enough said.

[Apprentice101]

Sigh.....

[Sapare]

Thief one and two are pretty old games. Thief 4 will not be successful unless they also put it on consoles. So fans saying they shouldn't make them for consoles are selfish *****es who'd rather have the game THEIR way, then having it essentially exactly the same and for the company who made it to make any money.

I don't own a console, and I never plan too, but I think if Thief 4 doesn't go to consoles, than it will be the last game in the series. Die hard fans suck compared to the console kids who buy the product, and don't cry about it. The only real difference would be the 3rd person view, which is only an extra feature.

I agree with him so much, you fans are kind of selfish.
Know to what I was about to say, I never played your precise Thief 1 game, but I saw all of it and know how it was. But still saying the game should only be like Thief 1 and 2 is a dumb and selfish idea, Thief 3 was not really a BAD game(at least from my point of view) and I'm sure many ells( outside this forum that filled with die hard fans) agrees with me. It was different, yes. Maybe it took your great rope arrow out(that was FREAKING BUGGED IN THIEF 1, so stop crying and don't tell me it was not, there where times you jump at it (and fall to your death) because it would shoot you up to meters but never grip the rope itself) and added something ells that never really worked but at least they tried to add something. Same with the city idea, it never lived up to what it was mend to be, but it still was FINE and to take it out completely because die hard fans are pissed of at it is just dumb. I mean it added something to the game, and was the reason I liked the first half of the game the most. Same with zombies and ghost. Yes, it can be fun to get the .... scared out of you, but its not worth putting in for to many reasons. First of some people (like me) never really get used to it and actually stop to play the game because every time they play they look around every corner for 30 min just out of fear.(only mission I never done on super hard in Thief 3, The cradle) Also if you put in Zombies and ghost, you guys quickly would want them to add more blood and things to make it "realistic" and then the rating of the game would go up to. I'm not saying their should be no ghost or monsters at all, a bit is fine. But going further then Thief 3 did is in my point of view just to far. Again its a game about the story not getting scared the .. out of you. Also to the cutscenes, If you mean the in game ones. I agree they looked rather bad. If you mean the videos(like the trial part of Garret) I liked those ones, they looked decent. Another thing is that you guys all complain about the 3 person view in Thief 3, I could almost laugh, its like you actually trying to show how much a die hard fan you are that you actually say something dumb as that. Its not like having the EXTRA OPTION(like in Thief 3) to have 3 person view for the game hurts the game. I never new it was there after having finished the game 3 times until YOU said it was. Stop crying about it, it does not affected the game! Also like that one guy said, and I think he was right. THIEF for needs to be for consoles to, other way it be the last in the series. Any thing ells.....
"- Thief is always about a good and dark history! Not a lame one like Thief 3"
I quote you on this, I did not really get what you meant, but if you mean that the story of Thief 3 was not dark enough, well it was darker then Thief 2.
So thanks if you did read this all, I know its allot. And over all, this is just my point of view on this. And, I trust the Eidos as long they don't just listen to the crazy die hard fans in this forum will make a good game.

[Blue Sky]

Its a good thing we were here to put them back on track then eh?

Phew! A job well done!

:thumb:

[GmanPro]

I agree with him so much, you fans are kind of selfish.
Know to what I was about to say, I never played your precise Thief 1 game, but I saw all of it and know how it was. But still saying the game should only be like Thief 1 and 2 is a dumb and selfish idea, Thief 3 was not really a BAD game(at least from my point of view) and I'm sure many ells( outside this forum that filled with die hard fans) agrees with me. It was different, yes. Maybe it took your great rope arrow out(that was FREAKING BUGGED IN THIEF 1, so stop crying and don't tell me it was not, there where times you jump at it (and fall to your death) because it would shoot you up to meters but never grip the rope itself) and added something ells that never really worked but at least they tried to add something. Same with the city idea, it never lived up to what it was mend to be, but it still was FINE and to take it out completely because die hard fans are pissed of at it is just dumb. I mean it added something to the game, and was the reason I liked the first half of the game the most. Same with zombies and ghost. Yes, it can be fun to get the .... scared out of you, but its not worth putting in for to many reasons. First of some people (like me) never really get used to it and actually stop to play the game because every time they play they look around every corner for 30 min just out of fear.(only mission I never done on super hard in Thief 3, The cradle) Also if you put in Zombies and ghost, you guys quickly would want them to add more blood and things to make it "realistic" and then the rating of the game would go up to. I'm not saying their should be no ghost or monsters at all, a bit is fine. But going further then Thief 3 did is in my point of view just to far. Again its a game about the story not getting scared the .. out of you. Also to the cutscenes, If you mean the in game ones. I agree they looked rather bad. If you mean the videos(like the trial part of Garret) I liked those ones, they looked decent. Another thing is that you guys all complain about the 3 person view in Thief 3, I could almost laugh, its like you actually trying to show how much a die hard fan you are that you actually say something dumb as that. Its not like having the EXTRA OPTION(like in Thief 3) to have 3 person view for the game hurts the game. I never new it was there after having finished the game 3 times until YOU said it was. Stop crying about it, it does not affected the game! Also like that one guy said, and I think he was right. THIEF for needs to be for consoles to, other way it be the last in the series. Any thing ells.....
"- Thief is always about a good and dark history! Not a lame one like Thief 3"
I quote you on this, I did not really get what you meant, but if you mean that the story of Thief 3 was not dark enough, well it was darker then Thief 2.
So thanks if you did read this all, I know its allot. And over all, this is just my point of view on this. And, I trust the Eidos as long they don't just listen to the crazy die hard fans in this forum will make a good game.

I'm sorry you couldn't figure out how to use rope arrows...

[Pipinowns]

If you don't think Max Payne is one of the greatest gaming series, than you haven't played the games in the series. Period.

Max Payne is one of the few gaming series that actually carried intelligence. Half Life was fun, but lets face it, when it comes to storyline, environment, and characters, Max Payne completely defeats it.

[Apprentice101]

If you don't think Max Payne is one of the greatest gaming series, than you haven't played the games in the series. Period.

Max Payne is one of the few gaming series that actually carried intelligence. Half Life was fun, but lets face it, when it comes to storyline, environment, and characters, Max Payne completely defeats it.

i want to give a good advice. Dont try to fight hardcore(not all of them, just some, most stubborn) fans. They know best. And what funny is, they (most stubborn) would make terrible developers.

[GmanPro]

Play Deus Ex if you want to know about intelligent video games sir

[Apprentice101]

Play Deus Ex if you want to know about intelligent video games sir

Play Thief 1. THen play THief II. And then THief DS. Did it bring any experience how to improve the game? Oh i understand, you want Thief II again. Just better graphics. Thats ok. Noooo problem :)

[GmanPro]

And you don't? Was Thief 2 not the highlight of the series?

[DarthEnder]

It's funny you say that because I'm really hoping that T4 comes with everything that fanmission makers would need to be able to replicate T1 and T2's missions in whatever T4's engine is.



I actually don't blame the T3 team for T3's shortcomings.

Pretty much all of the design decisions that were made that made T3 inferior to previous Thief games can be traced to the limitations of the engine they were using. They needed to use a fancy graphic engine to be competitive, but the fancy graphic engines of that time weren't as capable as the Dark engine for Thief's particular style of gameplay.

[Apprentice101]

If i am to be honest, and i risk you wouldnt understand. My answer is Yes and No.

YES- that stands to experience same sort of FEELING thief2 had. And to discover something that i havent experienced in any game before. That what Thief 2 have done to me.

NO - stands to SAME experience i already have. Old same experience that Thief 2 brought me with. I want NEW experience. In same world. Just new. I dont want SAME experience and feel that i can already have with Thief 2.

I really hope you understand a tiny bit i said.

[GmanPro]

I understand. But why does that mean that we need alternate protagonists and multiplayer? A good writer could weave an epic story and draw you into the game once again. Just like Thief 2 did. No gimmicks. Just good story telling, good map design, good music, good atmosphere. All mixed together to make the perfect Thief experience. Its not like I'm asking for a Thief 2 remake you know ... in fact, I don't want a remake. I just want to keep the mechanics of Thief 2 in tact.

[Apprentice101]

I understand. But why does that mean that we need alternate protagonists and multiplayer? A good writer could weave an epic story and draw you into the game once again. Just like Thief 2 did. No gimmicks. Just good story telling, good map design, good music, good atmosphere. All mixed together to make the perfect Thief experience. Its not like I'm asking for a Thief 2 remake you know ... in fact, I don't want a remake. I just want to keep the mechanics of Thief 2 in tact.


well i can see most people agreeing on topics that say I WANT THIEF 2 IN BETTER GRAPHICs. And thing is - i dont want new multiplayer. I want same old Thief. But by adding Multiplayer or rather say 2-player as additional feature would not in any way destroy game. It would be only additional feature. All harcore players would still have their single player and map tools. And honestly, if developers do not have resources for this, then I completely agree, FOCUS just on single player. But IF they can, why not?. It would increase the fan base. Larger fanbase= more THieves in the future.
Now as to Protagonist. There i have completely indiferrent opinion. In other words im open minded. So what if they bring New protagonist - you have the feeling playing as Thief. And then again - if you could adapt to Garret, why couldnt you adapt to another MAYBE more FUN character (You already played as Garret in 3 Sequels)?
You would still be THief.(because the game is all about that THieving, feeling, world, atmosphere, Garrret's replicas doesnt neccerily make him better thief. Yes his character has drawn some emotions towards him. I dont say they must replace him, but why not? maybe the girl would be even more fun). Its not like im asking you to say - No i dont want Garret anymore. I want people to think that another option MIGHT BE GOOD AS WELL than what it is. it CAN actually be better. I dont say DO another character. I just think IF they made NEW DEEP and FUN character. It might be a new opportunity to make game more fun, more exciting.

[GmanPro]

Maybe maybe maybe maybe. Look, I'm sure this stuff would work in another game. I want to keep Thief separate from everything else.

Look at Fallout 3. Series = ruined. And all because the new players were like "I don't want to wait my turn to shoot! I want to play Oblivion with gunz! I don't want my choices to bear any consequence! I just want to sit on my couch fifteen feet away from the screen and shoot stuff for fifteen minutes before I leave and forget all about it! But I still want it to be called Fallout even though this new game in no way resembles Fallout at all!"

Adding this stuff to Thief is like pouring icing on steak. The two just do not mix and are better left separate.

[FrankCSIS]

If you don't think Max Payne is one of the greatest gaming series, than you haven't played the games in the series. Period.

Max Payne is one of the few gaming series that actually carried intelligence. Half Life was fun, but lets face it, when it comes to storyline, environment, and characters, Max Payne completely defeats it.

Max Payne 2 was clever, with its worlds-within-a-world story telling. I liked how the game missions hooked up with the game's own fiction.

First Payne was original in some ways, but the gaming itself was terrible. Every single damn level was the same, with a different background. Go up the stairs, go down the stairs. Go up the stairs, oh, go up the stairs again. Good mood, good voiceover, fun little story, poor game.

Half Life was clever in too many ways to be discarded the way you just did. It's superior to the first Payne in ambiance, feeling, immersion, gameplay and, yes, story. It has so little, but still offers so much more by way of stimulating the player's imagination.

I wasn't crazy about HL 2, which I feel lost a lot of cleverness and immersion for the sake of gizmos, so I'd put MP 2 on top of it. That's purely personal though, and in little ways based on facts or logic.

[vasanx]

First of all Sapare, learn how to use paragraphs. And the English language while you're at it.

I agree with him so much, you fans are kind of selfish.
Know to what I was about to say, I never played your precise Thief 1 game, but I saw all of it and know how it was.

There. That alone is enough. What gives you the fu*king right to talk bout TDP and TMA when you never played it. Saw and knowing is not enough! :mad2:

You obviously started with TDS and for some perverted reason, you like it. Fine. No one says you can't like crappy games. Just look at Assassin's Snore fans.


But still saying the game should only be like Thief 1 and 2 is a dumb and selfish idea, Thief 3 was not really a BAD game(at least from my point of view) and I'm sure many ells( outside this forum that filled with die hard fans) agrees with me. It was different, yes.

Stop it already with this dumb and selfish thing already. You cannot come here and talk smack bout TDP and TMA when you've only played TDS. Hell, the way you're writing, it's as if TDS came out before TDP and TMA.

You don't come in and change everything, like they did with TDS, and expect people to stay quiet.

Imagine how you'd feel if TDS, the game you seem to adore so much, were to be the first Thief game and they changed everything you like about it. That's how we feel. Do you get that?

If you love that abomination of a game, fine. Salivate over it in some weird ass TDS forum or something.

T4 should be trying to win back the hearts of the real Thief community (we're at ttlg.com) who were alienated by TDS.

I still don't get what alternate universe you are posting from where TDS is considered a worthy successor to TDP and TMA.

Maybe it took your great rope arrow out(that was FREAKING BUGGED IN THIEF 1, so stop crying and don't tell me it was not, there where times you jump at it (and fall to your death) because it would shoot you up to meters but never grip the rope itself) and added something ells that never really worked but at least they tried to add something.

The fu*k? How many times did you die try jumping onto the rope? oh, that's right. You never played TDP. Or TMA.

I died too when i jumped but i don't hate it. If anything, it added to the tension of the game. Will i make a successful jump or not? There's nothing like looking down from a ledge and seeing how high you are and have that sick feeling in your stomach right before you make that jump.

That was what so great bout Thief. But, then again you need to play it, to know what i mean.


Another thing is that you guys all complain about the 3 person view in Thief 3, I could almost laugh, its like you actually trying to show how much a die hard fan you are that you actually say something dumb as that. Its not like having the EXTRA OPTION(like in Thief 3) to have 3 person view for the game hurts the game. I never new it was there after having finished the game 3 times until YOU said it was. Stop crying about it, it does not affected the game!


Wow. If you could laugh, i could cry reading your dumb ass comment here.
Does not affect the game? Do you even know what we were talking bout?

Adding the third person view hurt the first person view because they worked more on the third person than on the first person! Moving around was weird with your head constantly bobbing in first person. But then again you wouldn't know because...(drum roll please).....YOU NEVER PLAYED TDP & TMA!!!

And, I trust the Eidos as long they don't just listen to the crazy die hard fans in this forum will make a good game.

Right. They should listen to a deluded, rude ass like you to make the game.

[Pipinowns]

Play Deus Ex if you want to know about intelligent video games sir

Ummm... are Dues Ex and the first two thieves the only intelligent game in your book?

Unfortunately, I have not played Dues Ex yet, but I seriously doubt that when I do I will throw away all my favorite games and label them below average.

Max Payne 2 was clever, with its worlds-within-a-world story telling. I liked how the game missions hooked up with the game's own fiction.

First Payne was original in some ways, but the gaming itself was terrible. Every single damn level was the same, with a different background. Go up the stairs, go down the stairs. Go up the stairs, oh, go up the stairs again. Good mood, good voiceover, fun little story, poor game.

Half Life was clever in too many ways to be discarded the way you just did. It's superior to the first Payne in ambiance, feeling, immersion, gameplay and, yes, story. It has so little, but still offers so much more by way of stimulating the player's imagination.

I wasn't crazy about HL 2, which I feel lost a lot of cleverness and immersion for the sake of gizmos, so I'd put MP 2 on top of it. That's purely personal though, and in little ways based on facts or logic.

Yeah, Max Payne 2 is awesome :thumb:

I can't really debate with you on the Half Life = imagination stimulating, because I haven't played the original Half Life in many years, and can only remember the highlights.

I definitely agree that Half Life 2 (which I've played rather recently) didn't live up to the original. Wasn't a bad game, though.

[GmanPro]

Ummm... are Dues Ex and the first two thieves the only intelligent game in your book?

There's also Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, Planescape: Torment, Fallout 1 & 2, Half Life, Kotor

Unfortunately, I have not played Dues Ex yet, but I seriously doubt that when I do I will throw away all my favorite games and label them below average.

Trust me. You will.

And it's Deus not Dues. Just fyi

[Thieffanman]

Which of the Thief games was your favourite, which one was your least favourite - and why?
What key feature(s) did you like best about the game series?

Do you hope that T4 will retain these elements, or do you prefer to see something totally new?

1) I'm a rebel in that I *liked* Deadly Shadows for the feel of the game: A perpetually dark medieval-ish city, constantly hiding in shadows, excellent soundtrack that gave the game a spooky feel, and enemies that you usually needed to run from because they could out-fight you due to their being better armed and armored (ie. city guard and Hammerites)-- Garret's a *thief*, not a fighter. That element of danger helped make the game happen.

2) I liked the particulars of having to pick locks, eavesdrop on conversations for info, meet fences and black markets for materials and info, as well as the necessity of being stealthy-- if I wanted a fighting game, I'd buy something else.

3) Having random houses available to break into and plunder :).

4) Eric Brosius' music. But then, that's been said, a *lot* :).

5) As for T4, I say please keep the medieval/steampunk/goth city feel from Deadly Shadows. The coastal town in constant night with people out at all hours? I liked it. If Eidos wants the game's setting to evolve, consider a setting like Renaissance-era Italy, maybe Venice: canals, statuary, artwork everywhere, and *plenty* of alleys and places to hide.

6) Have haunted places like the Shalebridge Cradle and the zombie-infested ship. Also have out-of-the-way unusual goals like the Kurshok Citadel in Deadly Shadows.

--Thieffanman

[Sapare]

First of all Sapare, learn how to use paragraphs. And the English language while you're at it.
And you called me rude? Not like what I write is unreadable.


There. That alone is enough. What gives you the fu*king right to talk bout TDP and TMA when you never played it. Saw and knowing is not enough! :mad2:

First of, What gives me the right to talk about TDP and TMA? You insane they are just GAMES any one can talk about them when he wants to. Also I never said I did not play TMA its the first Thief game I played and I finished it on hard. I also saw TDP being played every part of it on expert till the end right in front of my face


You obviously started with TDS and for some perverted reason, you like it. Fine. No one says you can't like crappy games. Just look at Assassin's Snore fans.

Like I already stated TMA is the first game I played in the THIEF series, I grew up with it. Also that part of your reply is just pure offensive you state no reason to even anther, you just say the game sucks done.


Stop it already with this dumb and selfish thing already. You cannot come here and talk smack bout TDP and TMA when you've only played TDS. Hell, the way you're writing, it's as if TDS came out before TDP and TMA.

Again any one can talk and express his feelings about that game how he wants to, chill really. Not like I really offended you, I just said what I was thinking about the game.


You don't come in and change everything, like they did with TDS, and expect people to stay quiet.


What? Open revolt?
" OMG they changed the rope arrow, kill them. OMG 3 person view!? NO!! OMG what the game is for consoles to? BURN THEM!"
That is how you seem to be


Imagine how you'd feel if TDS, the game you seem to adore so much, were to be the first Thief game and they changed everything you like about it. That's how we feel. Do you get that?


I do know how it feels, I played Prince of Persia, take one look out how the game was and is now. You would see how much it sucks now. But that only makes you guys look even more foolish, the PoP guys have reason to be whining. You guys still got a good game even if it was not a THIEF game in your saying.


If you love that abomination of a game, fine. Salivate over it in some weird ass TDS forum or something.


Why should I, this is the official Eidos forum, and I'm sure they appreciate ALL THIEF fans and not THIEF fans to give ideas and put input.



T4 should be trying to win back the hearts of the real Thief community (we're at ttlg.com) who were alienated by TDS.


As much as I see how you guys would love if they make every thing how you want it to be, you also need to think how MOST people want it, I don't say don't listen to the fans. I'm just saying its best to take input from both fans and not fans.


I still don't get what alternate universe you are posting from where TDS is considered a worthy successor to TDP and TMA.


Again nothing much other then just a responds to show how you don't think that people can have other things they like and don't like.


The fu*k? How many times did you die try jumping onto the rope? oh, that's right. You never played TDP. Or TMA.
I died too when i jumped but i don't hate it. If anything, it added to the tension of the game. Will i make a successful jump or not? There's nothing like looking down from a ledge and seeing how high you are and have that sick feeling in your stomach right before you make that jump.


You really think I would post that if I never tried? And its fine in THIEF 2 from what I remember the problem is a bug in THIEF 1, I don't know but it might not have been in it at first but at least with a modern computer its a bug that happens allot, its not that I missed the rope itself.




That was what so great bout Thief. But, then again you need to play it, to know what i mean.

Wow. If you could laugh, i could cry reading your dumb ass comment here.
Does not affect the game? Do you even know what we were talking bout?

Adding the third person view hurt the first person view because they worked more on the third person than on the first person! Moving around was weird with your head constantly bobbing in first person. But then again you wouldn't know because...(drum roll please).....YOU NEVER PLAYED TDP & TMA!!!


Well I sum it up, Its not the 3 Person views fault if first person is hurt by it, that is the programmers fault.



Right. They should listen to a deluded, rude ass like you to make the game.
[/QUOTE]

Ok that is all I think, I don't know why you being so rude and such an ass, I stated at the end of my first post that I thank you for reading it all and that it was just my point of view, and how I saw the things. So if next time you could please not swear for no reason, tank you.

[vasanx]

Great! Fu*kin great!

Thanks Sapare for misleading me. When someone says, "I never played your precise (it's precious, rite?) Thief 1 game" you tend to think that the person never played the Thief series at all. But fine.

And you called me rude? Not like what I write is unreadable.

Trust me, it's pretty unreadable. And the only reason I was rude is because you said the following:

1. "But still saying the game should only be like Thief 1 and 2 is a dumb and selfish idea"

2. "...its like you actually trying to show how much a die hard fan you are that you actually say something dumb as that"

3. "And, I trust the Eidos as long they don't just listen to the crazy die hard fans"

Listen, I hate rudeness as much as the next guy but you sir, started it.

I'm all for healthy discussion. Lets agree to disagree and all that sh*t. You wanna badmouth, badmouth the game itself, NOT the people.

That's why I was being a di*k. I was merely returning the favor.

You are right, they are just games. But don't attack the players themselves. Well, at least don't call them dumb. That kinda thing pisses off people, you know?

You wanna know why TDS sucks? Just go here:http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88689

Oh, I'm chill alright and contrary to what you believe, you did offend me and countless other Taffers.

Fine, just say what you're thinking without trying to start a flame war at the same time.


What? Open revolt?
" OMG they changed the rope arrow, kill them. OMG 3 person view!? NO!! OMG what the game is for consoles to? BURN THEM!"
That is how you seem to be

Oh, please stop it. You're killing me here. Are you a regular in the stand up scene?

Nobody wants kill nobody here, except maybe the Ion Storm people behind TDS and Jade Raymond.

Just read through the forum why we are pissed about the rope arrow, the third person and console thing. There are logical explanations for all of the above but if you can't accept them then fine, state your logical rebuttals instead of humiliating yourself. I don't know if anyone has told you this before, but you're no comic genius Sapare.


You claim that you know how we feel and yet you fail to show any of it here.

Just because TDS didn't completely suck, in your book anyway, we are foolish for whining?

Whining is our right. You whine too and i wouldn't have been rude if you didn't start it.


As much as I see how you guys would love if they make every thing how you want it to be, you also need to think how MOST people want it, I don't say don't listen to the fans. I'm just saying its best to take input from both fans and not fans.


What most people? We are the most people! People who have been playing Thief fan missions for over 10 years now. The most people you are talking bout are kids with over developed trigger finger who can't wait to blow sh*t up.

They are way too impatient for what Thief has to offer. EM being like any developer, wants to make a profit and as such they will target the largest audience. That's the Halo kids I was talking about.

Making T4 with them primarily in mind will only hurt the series. That's all me and the other taffers are saying.

Please tell me you at least get that?

I've already acknowledged that people can like and dislike whatever is it they want. Nothin is wrong with that. Just be careful when you pick on it.



Well I sum it up, Its not the 3 Person views fault if first person is hurt by it, that is the programmers fault.


Wow. You continue to amaze me. Seriously? (Note: This is an example of attacking someone without being too rude.)


Ok that is all I think, I don't know why you being so rude and such an ass, I stated at the end of my first post that I thank you for reading it all and that it was just my point of view, and how I saw the things. So if next time you could please not swear for no reason, tank you.

I think you know why. Just because you said thanks at the end doesn't mean you can call people dumb and crazy.

I hate swearing too so, i'm cool if you're cool. Stop attacking the players, stop attacking carelessly anyway.

Arguing can be fun if you know how to do it well. That's all I'm sayin.

[VIKTORIA]

Taffers, keep it civil around the camp fire please.
We each have different opinions about everything and all are welcome to express their views on this forum. :)

[DanielOcean]

At first: A great story. Not linear, with twists and turns in it.

I remember how thrilling the scene was, when Truart was murdered! You go through this red coloured corridor and suddenly the guards start to argue about Truarts death. Gave me goosebumps :D Absolutely amazing turn!

An interactive world of some kind (thief3). People moving around, having their own little stories (e.g. Thief 2: Lady Rumford in "Framed" was great! :D)

Some optional Sub-Missions beside the Main-Plot Missions. That does not mean, that you can't investigate something in these sub-missions! Perhaps there is a main plot and some optional subplots during the game ( e.g. Finding the wedding bands for Jennivere and Basso ;))

Perhaps your behaviour has an influence on the story line? Don't know, just some thoughts...

[xxcoy]

That is an interesting survey. Perhaps someone should put a copy up here.

I'm a bit confused about the graphic design though. Why would people not want that? I guess it depends what that means to you.

I wouldn't want Thief to be an RPG, but I liked what I consider some minor RPG elements that were in TDS. I liked the fact that Garrett gained a few new abilities over the course of the game and I liked that you had a persistent city with a persistent personal inventory with the ability to visit various shops to buy things.

I did like having the robots and cameras since they really added to the Steampunk atmosphere and I liked that there are some fantastical elements in Thief with some monsters, but I think Thief 1 over did it. I'd like at least a little bit of those.

The survey was made in September 2004.
The part concerning graphic design then was mostly influenced by the small levels in TDS which looked great but did not give you the feeling of complete freedom as the Game did in TMA.
People affiliated that problem on the graphics as well as on the consessions to the XBox.
I think nowadays graphic performance and level size shouldn't contradict each other anymore.

I for myself didn't see a point in Garrett "leveling up", why should he suddenly have to learn skills he always had anew? (And how did he forget how to swim all of a sudden...?? Did someone knock him too hard? ^^ )

I liked either monsters as robots but a lot of fans enjoyed pure 'sneaking & stealing' missions as 'Bafford's Manor' or 'The Bank' most of all and wouldn't have missed those opponents if they wouldn't have been there.
Anyway, they didn't exactly say that they disliked them, just that they weren't that important to them.
Apart from that, they wouldn't want to miss the creepy levels as Bonehoard or Shalebridge Cradle.

Steampunk was always one of the most important parts of the typical Thief Game and although the robots and cameras apparently didn't exactly make 'person of the year' for German fans, the SP-atmosphere always was most appreciated.

[acridrose]

At first: A great story. Not linear, with twists and turns in it.

I remember how thrilling the scene was, when Truart was murdered! You go through this red coloured corridor and suddenly the guards start to argue about Truarts death. Gave me goosebumps :D Absolutely amazing turn!

An interactive world of some kind (thief3). People moving around, having their own little stories (e.g. Thief 2: Lady Rumford in "Framed" was great! :D)

Some optional Sub-Missions beside the Main-Plot Missions. That does not mean, that you can't investigate something in these sub-missions! Perhaps there is a main plot and some optional subplots during the game ( e.g. Finding the wedding bands for Jennivere and Basso ;))

Perhaps your behaviour has an influence on the story line? Don't know, just some thoughts...

Thank you for restoring this thread :D
And you draw our eyes to an important part of Thief II- Blackmail. Everyone refers to Life at a Party for the idea level (and rightfully so!), but Blackmail is a second example that I would point EM to- the way the level is structured is very clever. You, as Garrett, work your way up the mansion in a methodical, but non-linear fashion, and each floor has a surprise. The change of colour at the murder scene is the best part!!
Any other thoughts on this mission?

[Sapare]

@vasanx
I don't want to argue any more. So lets say that I started it with being offensive. What I'm sorry for, but I was just trying to say they should listen at both die hard fans and not die hard fans. I for one am a great fan of the game to, to be a die hard fan of it does not mean you NEED to have played Thief 1. But all that there was to be said has been said, and I don't want to leave this argument with hatred between us, so sorry. BTW, the link you posted, at the end they guy still said THIEF DS was not a ENJOYABLE game...
(BTW, Sorry for my English , I'm am German)

[joshtheitguy]

I don't have a fast internet connection so STEAM only prevents me from playing my games which I paid for. It doesn't do anything positive for me

Unfortunately we are at a day in age where no game developer is going to abandon DRM. If I had a choice between SecuROM or Steam, I'd chose steam. I won't buy any game with SecuROM and if it happens to make it's way to Steam along with SecuROM that is even more the reason to pass that title up.

Face it no developer is going to abandon DRM so which one do you prefer?

Valve software's approach where you know what you are getting.

or

Sony's malicious, hidden, rootkit that disables your burning software can potentially damage your hardware then phones home all the time and reduces performance?

If the devs are listening, I prefer no DRM but if you believe you have to please use DRM use Steam opposed to SecuROM and if you use both don't even bother I won't buy the game with SecuROM.

[vasanx]

@vasanx
I don't want to argue any more. So lets say that I started it with being offensive. What I'm sorry for, but I was just trying to say they should listen at both die hard fans and not die hard fans. I for one am a great fan of the game to, to be a die hard fan of it does not mean you NEED to have played Thief 1. But all that there was to be said has been said, and I don't want to leave this argument with hatred between us, so sorry. BTW, the link you posted, at the end they guy still said THIEF DS was not a ENJOYABLE game...
(BTW, Sorry for my English , I'm am German)

As do I.

Allow me to apologize as well. Trust me, no hatred.

Yeah, GmanPro enjoyed TDS for all its flaws and to be honest, I didn't totally hate it. It's just that so much of it could have been easily avoided if Ion Storm wasn't so impatient and reckless.

They rushed out the game for one. They made it with Xbox in mind. Listen, I'm not a PC Supremacist nut job, ok? I own a 360 myself and love what that baby can do.

But what Ion Storm did was screw over the PC people by building TDS based on what the Xbox can do.

Now that I think of it, why did they bother releasing it on the PC? It should have been like Halo 2. Ignore the PC people. Sure, the PC people would have been pissed as hell but the moment we start reading the reviews, I'm pretty sure everybody would have felt glad it wasn't released on the PC and we could go back to playing our TDP and TMA fan missions.

Everyone is worried that history will repeat itself and it most likely will. But we have to at least do our part to warn EM.

The 360 is an amazing piece of hardware. Tri-Dual Core and that Custom ATI GPU means it could do what the Xbox could only dream of.

All EM have to do now is pick the correct engine or build a new engine from the ground up. In fact, they should be working on DarkEngine 2.

I mean cmon! How hard can it be to take the Dark Engine and update it to today's standards?

That's all we are askin for here. And as for TDS, take whatever that did work there and bring it into T4 (The blackjack does not apply here!).

If EM refuses to do that then, at least release the DarkEngine source code to the ttlg people. There are people here who are willing to continue the Looking Glass legacy. Just look at T2X.

We don't care bout no shiny graphics if the soul of the series is not there, again.

I'm telling you EM, if you guys pull another TDS you are gonna lose the TDP and TMA fans.

(And please do not apologize for your English. I'm sorry I was a di*k bout your English that time. That was because of the whole dumb, crazy thing. And I'm Malaysian by the way)

[vasanx]

Leave AI suggestions alone I think. EM will be fully aware the AI can be improved to today's gaming standards and it's not a subject they'll need fan input with.

I don't really agree with you here because if we don't highlight to them, they could miss it seeing as how they will be referring to the previous Thief games.

This should be like an important thread. Perhaps Viktoria could include this in the Keeper's Diary.

AI makes the guards believable if done right and this can only add to the realism of the game.

I know it's 2009 and things have progressed a lot but there are devs that still manage to screw this part up.

One good example, Velvet Assassin.

The guards can be really dumb at times. You got two guards standing 5 feet apart looking the opposite way. You stab one guy and he cries out a bit and drops to the floor with a thud. And guard no.2 hears nothin of it. He wasn't on headphones the last time I checked.

Going back to thief, the thing that I could never get around is how guards don't notice doors that have been left open. Or on hearing a door to their room has just been opened and no guards have entered. What? Did the wind unlock the handle and push the door open? Cmon!

That should trigger the AI to search for intruders.

What about when using rope arrows? I remember doing this all the time.

Guards spots me, guard chases me. I go into a room and shoot a rope arrow into the beams in the ceiling and climb up. And our guard arrives and just goes round and round in the room completely oblivious of the rope. Even walks through it.

And there I'll be, firing my arrows from above and the guard just takes it without looking above or in the interest of self-preservation, run out of the room.

These are the kind of things from the previous three games we need to bring up to EM's attention so that it doesn't slip through the crack come T4.

I know there are more silly AI moments but I can't think of any at the moment. What do you guys have?

[GmanPro]

In Thief 2, I liked how the guards could turn some lights back on after you had shot them out/flipped them off. I want to see more of that in Thief 4.

It would be nice to see the guards react more realistically to the environment after they had spotted you. Like a tendency to only travel in groups and to stay in well lit areas etc. I want to see them break out into search parties and prowl the premises if they had seen you and you got away. You could add in scripted sequences and alternate guard-to-guard conversations for such instances. Anything to add to the atmosphere and make the world more believable.

I dislike that the guards behavior is just on a loop. If they fail to find you they just go back to stage 1 as if nothing had happened. Instead of going into stage 1 they should enter stage 3.5 or something. It would be a great way to make the gameplay of each mission feel unique.

[vasanx]

Nice.Totally forgot bout that annoying bit.

What kinda guard goes back to whistling happily after chasing and losing a thief. He's still in the mansion. Hello?

The moment you're spotted, that's it. All hell should break loose and the amount of guards that come out from the barracks should make it impossible for Garrett to stay there.

The mission doesn't have to necessarily end there.

I'm thinking, Garrett retreats to his base, wait it out a day or two and make another attempt.

But this time, his previous intel won't work because the guards and owner of the mansion for instance, have moved the main loot in light of the thievery attempt. Also, the total amount of loot would have dropped significantly since everything is transferred to the bank or something.

And, there'll be more guards patrolling more seriously this time.

I mean, how cool and real would that seem?

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

hmm I'll admit I didn't read all that arguing. I just wanna say that if somebody started with TDS and liked it, they should do themselves a favor and play the first two as well. Then they would understand very well what most people want from Thief 4 and why they so fervently fight for it. It's not about remaking Thief 2.

oh and if people are having trouble playing the first two then yea, sorry. I've heard all kinds of problems with installing and playing those games on a modern system.

[kin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTwrEfES5Q4

[Flashart]

No single game had every level of unbelievable quality. TDS had "The Cradle" which is
one of the all-time classics.
The law of averages suggests that some of T4 will be so-so but some will be brilliant.
If the overall story was great, but the individual level execution was lousy would that be better
than great levels but a frankly ridiculous story.I'm not saying either is mutually exclusive,
it just depends how you measure success.
Personally, I'd go for great levels, and if that means the story arc of the series has to be "massaged" a little that's fine.
Last year's "Fallout" had some great stuff in it, some tedium, and a deeply unsatisfying ending,
but overall it was a great game.
TDS tried to straddle a divide between attracting new gamers while keeping the original fans.

[Dominus]

hehe, so true kin. it is that simple.
also this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaugYown6GA

[Flashart]

I guess it's the level of suspicion that the guards feel. An open door
may arouse curiosity, a previously locked door would arouse suspicion.
Torches going out could be the wind, lights turning off could be fused.
Maybe guard levels might be
1 Calm ("Dum de dum")
2 Alert ("Strange noise?") Looks around
3 Suspicious ("Who turned off the lights?") 1 search patrol then return to post
4 Determined ("I'll find you") Thorough search, turning lights on, relocking doors
5 Hostile ("Stand still, Taffer!") Chase/ and get help.

Not every guard need have the same level, but should harder game settings have
more guards, or more sensitivity or both?
The problem might be that some gamers would rather reload a save than play on, then
you get the "frustrated" negative comments.

[vasanx]

Please do:
- Loot glint (it's stupid in Thief 1/2 to get something attractive and stuck with it in hands without chance to avoid so much noise when put it back; it's stupid to paint something valuable). But it's better to be configurable.

Could you please rephrase? You just touched on one of the the most annoyin feature in TDS but I can't understand your reasoning for it.

It's all the more frustrating when you say TDP and TMA's loot system is stupid.

How is it stupid again?

[Neb]

Could you please rephrase? You just touched on one of the the most annoyin feature in TDS but I can't understand your reasoning for it.

It's all the more frustrating when you say TDP and TMA's loot system is stupid.

How is it stupid again?

I think they mean that it's too noisy to put down worthless junk in TDP and TMA after realising that it's not actually loot.

Being able to replace objects silently, instead of slinging them, would be a decent feature.

[BlooferLady]

Oh, a don't: that annoying pagan speech. Get rid of it, they didn't sound like apebeasts in TMA, they shouldn't have in TDS either.

You know, for me, it was a couple of years between playing TDP/TMA and TDS. I didn't notice how awful the pagan-speech was in TDS until I read people's complaints on here. But really, go back and watch the eye-popping cutscene from TDP. Viktoria and Constantine sound scary as hell, even at the end when you can barely understand what they're saying. :D Their speech made them sound alien and other. Which they were, really. Wild and unfamiliar. TDS simply made pagans sound silly, and they were hard to take seriously.

Couple of other points:
1. Parkour? Really? Our favorite master thief is getting on in years, friends. I don't think I'd be able to take up parkour, and I'm only 22. That's about how old he was in TDP, right? Not a skill I'd like to see in T4, sorry. If you wanted to add some more fluid movements in, I think he should be able to vault over low walls, or run up short walls to grab the top. Nothing too fancy! Simply add on to the already established "mantling," and make some things more natural.

2. Loading screens: I have played TDS on 2 different platforms, PC and 360. On PC, the loading screens take FOREVER and are terrible flow-breakers. I play on a laptop. That's the chief reason why. I don't notice it on Xbox, since my 360 whips through the load-times. To draw from some more modern games, if you can keep all of Cyrodil available without a loading screen, you should be able to do the same with T4.

3. I never had much of an issue with the guards' alertness levels. They are much more aware after they've spotted you once. This seems fairly natural to me. I think the main thing would be that they need to return to the non-alerted level more gradually, so that you don't have someone coming after you to take off your head who suddenly says "oh, must have been rats" and goes about their business. This doesn't happen all the time, and consistency makes the difference. Plus, if I was a guard, and had just spotted and lost an intruder, I would be somewhere at level 2.5 for the remainder of my shift, but I wouldn't necessarily run off to tell the boss just how bad of a guard I am. :) The precedent is there, I just think they need to make it more consistent.

4. What about cameras and turrets? I feel like they really added to the steampunk atmosphere of TMA. TDS and TDP had less of that, and more of a fantasy feel. I still liked the atmosphere, but I started playing on TMA, and I liked that culture clash. Really, much of the storyline stems from the conflict between the modern, mechanical world and the magical, natural world. I'd like to see more of a return to that feel.

I think that above all, if there's a possibility to give the player an option, (sword/dagger, climbing gloves/rope arrows, third person/first person) give it to us. Take the time to really perfect this game, and you can appease newcomers and old hands alike.

[BlooferLady]

Actually, going back to the parkour thing:

I would be able to accept a more nimble protagonist if they wind up having a new main character. NOT to the level of Altair, and it seems to me that the method for implementing free running Mirror's Edge wouldn't really be very compatible with the gaming style of Thief. Haven't played Mirror's Edge, though, so I could very well be wrong.

Anyways, it merely occurred to me that, while I would scoff at Garrett developing the wall climbing abilities of a squirrel, (probably as much as I scoffed at his sudden inability to swim) a new protagonist might bring more of these skills to the table.

That being said, I'm terribly torn whenever I try and imagine a Thief game without Garrett as the main character. If you gave us someone with just as much personality, perhaps I could be persuaded to like them too, but you'd have to do a d**n good job to measure up to Garrett. And I'd still probably hate you 4 days out of 7. :)

[WVI]

Okay, what on Earth is up with all the Deadly Shadows hate?

Loot glint is a great thing. Take, for example, the two types of candlesticks - loot and junk. I shouldn't have to explain the benefit there. If you feel it breaks the immersion with a silly-looking gameplay element, think of it this way - Garrett's a thief. He's got a trained eye for loot.

And climbing? Wonky controls in Deadly Shadows aside, it's a great thing to have more clever ways to escape and more uses of the dimension of height. It adds to level design; there's nothing bad about it.

[BlooferLady]

I actually wondered about the loot glint/object highlighting hate as well. I could do with or without loot glint, doesn't matter to me. I don't understand why object highlighting has come under fire. We had that in the first two games as well..... unless object highlighting=loot glint?

I think there is a lot of criticism TDS mostly because it's the most recent example we have, and it was expanded and reduced in different ways than TMA. So it's the easiest example to use when saying "we liked that, we didn't like this," ect.

Actually, whenever I think something looks strange in TMA and TDS, I put it down to his mechanical eye. It's just better than letting it get in the way of the game. Perhaps that's just me. :)

[Thieffanman]

One more thing I'd love to see:

One thing I loved about TDS is that sometimes, missions went wrong. Sometimes mission goals changed right in the middle of the game, because well, that happens in real life :D. Garrett had to adapt to changing goals in order to survive, not to mention finish the mission.

Keep that in T4-- missions that suddenly go haywire, causing mid-mission change in goals/priorities.

--Thieffanman

[Platinumoxicity]

One more thing I'd love to see:

One thing I loved about TDS is that sometimes, missions went wrong. Sometimes mission goals changed right in the middle of the game, because well, that happens in real life :D. Garrett had to adapt to changing goals in order to survive, not to mention finish the mission.

Keep that in T4-- missions that suddenly go haywire, causing mid-mission change in goals/priorities.

--Thieffanman

Yeah, it created pretty nice surprises and dissapoinments. Like "Assassins", where at first you were going to rob a hammerite temple, or "Blackmail" where Truart got killed. The biggest surprise/dissapointment was in "The Haunted Cathedral", where you went all the way to the cathedral, but couldn't get in. Good times. :lol:

[Subjective Effect]

Hey mods, I know you moved my thread/post here but actually I don't think it quiiiite fits.

I've moved it here:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=994436&postcount=38

which is a thread it fits in much better.

[Fiddlesticks]

I just loved Thief 1,2 they delivered this certain athmosphere Thief 3 couldn't fully deliver. Thief 1,2 felt much more complete than Thief 3 did.

What i didn't enjoy in Thief 3 was the city in which Garreth moves around. It felt like the concept of the city was a nice concept at start, but in the end you only could enter a handful of places, it made the world so tiny and predictable. I prefered the invisble unpredictable world of Thief 1,2, you didn't know where the journey brings you next, that made it mysterious and adventerious and it felt much bigger.

In Thief 1,2 you got thrown into really big open world and Garret's missions could've been anywhere. I felt kind of hopeless, desperate in Thief 1,2 it created this scary athmosphere + the great ambient background music, the delivered experience was perfect.
I would suggest every Thief 4 developer should play through Thief1,2 and soak up all the athmosphere, this is how Thief 4 should feel like.

Additionally:
- Garrett as maincharacter + his original voiceactors in every language.
- A return of the Thief 1,2 "treasure_pickup" sounds, the Thief 3 one was too soft, Thief 1,2 had this deep sound and it was much better.
- At least one level which is really really creepy, a level where you can feel the danger, like Thief 1 cathedral or Thief 3 cradle, this level need to deliver fear.
- Guards have funny conversations, funny taunts when they hunt you
- Decent use of the word taffer in dialogs (very important!)
- Many many secret places, to reward exploring to really feel acomplishment when you've got a hard to get treasure.
- a good believable AI, you should not be able to open a screeching door or a crate with load lockpicking noises and the guard doesn't give a damn about it, that's unrealistic.
- Athmospheric soundtrack which delivers the dark and mysterious feeling of Garrett's world + "Thief style cutscenes"
- a catchy intro like Thief 1
- 1st person view, of course with drawn model when you look down, but i quess this will come out as option, so everyone is happy.

Can't think of more at the moment, but i play through them at the moment so i will post more, it's been a while since i played them.

[DanielOcean]

Additionally:
- Garrett as maincharacter + his original voiceactors in every language.
For the german market: The german voiceactor from Metal Age! His voice fit in perfectly!

- a catchy intro like Thief 1

I prefered the Intro of metal age :)


If the overall story was great, but the individual level execution was lousy would that be better
than great levels but a frankly ridiculous story.I'm not saying either is mutually exclusive,
it just depends how you measure success.
Personally, I'd go for great levels, and if that means the story arc of the series has to be "massaged" a little that's fine.


I think the level design and the story are mutually exclusive... The Story is the content. The levels are the form to transport the content... If you have a grat Story, the level will form by itself. If the story inherits a turning point, like in "Blackmail" or other missions in thief 3, the mission objectives will change.

If you have a great story, the missions will become great by themselves. On the other hand, i think in Thief 2, they began with the level design and formed the story afterwards...
As far as I remember, they did that, because the fans didn't like the "Indiana Jones Factor" in DP (haunted places, run from zombies, etc). That made the MA so damn good.
Whatever, i would say that a great story forms great missions. Look at mafia as an example ;)...

[Flashart]

Yes and no, the "Bank" mission was great, but it could have easily just been about the loot, it wouldn't have made it a "worse" level. I agree it's better to have both, but I'd rather have
good levels and if the story has to bend to fit it, that's okay, as long as the ending is coherent and
satisfying.

[Norsu]

Loot glint is a great thing. Take, for example, the two types of candlesticks - loot and junk. I shouldn't have to explain the benefit there. If you feel it breaks the immersion with a silly-looking gameplay element, think of it this way - Garrett's a thief. He's got a trained eye for loot.

In T1 and T2 you didn't need loot glint because it was so easy to see which items were valuable. For example valuable candlesticks in T1 and T2 were clearly made out of gold and player could easily see that they were loot. In TDS many loot items looked very similar to junk items so loot glint was necessarry.

Loot glint IMO was just another rushed decision in TDS that could have been avoided with proper design. So please EM make loot items look valuable again and if you really must add loot glint make it at least optional so that the community doesn't have to hack it away again.

[garrett69]

I think this game has so much potential, I can't think of any other series that can rival it. It's rightly the Jurassic Park of the game world, and has worldwide acclaim and appeal for good reason.

Many people have already put up suggestions, and most are perfect and clearly shows that the fans really do KNOW this game, and what it should/must be when it returns.

I'd really like it to achieve the following:

A better, more open plan world to explore, just like the levels of TDP and TMA. - TDS failed so badly in this area with boring environments with little reason to revist them, very claustrophobic, even if the lighting was excellent, the size was pitiful. Nowhere near enough side quests and storylines.

Garrett returning, voiced by Stephen Russell the man himself, music of course by Eric Brosius. These two icons make Thief what it is.

The non-linearity of TMA is essential

Proper use of the blackjack and rope arrows again.

The storyline should be totally immersive and play like the original two, I think the element of mystery with the trickster/victoria/undead/beasts etc really add atmosphere and suspense of the unknown.

The puzzle element if present should be alike what it was in TDP and TMA, not some Tomb Raider style approach.



Things that MUST NOT HAPPEN:
Thief 4 must remain in the medieval age and not be modernised PLEASE DO NOT RIP OFF THIS SERIES FOR PROFIT. I wouldn't buy a single eidos product again that's for sure, this is why I'm not buying thief 4 merchandise until I know Eidos is really listening to the fans knowledge and sticking to the tried and tested, legendary formula.

Garrett should remain the playable character, but I could accept a switch to another keeper/his new apprentice at a push, if done correct.

DO NOT TURN THIS SERIES INTO AN RPG! We don't want to see Garrett running round levelling up, boosting his health and manna skills and crap like this, it's not in keeping with the series. He is already at his prime. Gaining new equipment maybe, but don't treat it like a constant quest to improve your skill base.


Ultimately, what made the Thief series great, was how immersive it is. It's scary, it's slow, it's quiet, it's absorbing. The lighting and the ambience and literally hugging a wall until you hear a pin drop.
It's not about swords being brandished, it can certainily never be about guns, loud noises and special effects. Graphics barely matter.
It's all about timing and planning and stealth and the freedom to try and re-try and rediscover places and learn more about the story. That's what made Thief so replayable, people play TDP today and these levels are burned into our minds because they were so exciting/scary that we got caught up in a story that has never come along in gaming before.

The best way of describing it I think is it's like actually being inside a medieval novel, and shaping how it goes. I just hope Eidos listens to the fans, take until 2020 if they need, it will take time to get the mix right, and I hope it isn't going to simply trade this series in for a quick buck, because nothing but nothing hurts fans more than ripping off their memories.

[garrett69]

Also agree with previous poster about DRM. Can't touch this title even if it's my dream game when it has SecuROM on board. Won't go near anything that treats me like a criminal when I've paid legitimately, and that actively disrupts my computer and/or life, and for what....I'm not paying £30 to damage my system.

[vasanx]

I think they mean that it's too noisy to put down worthless junk in TDP and TMA after realising that it's not actually loot.

Being able to replace objects silently, instead of slinging them, would be a decent feature.

What? Since when is that stupid? :mad2:

That was suppose to add to the tension. You need to find a soft place to drop the stuff or get caught by the guard. Or you had to go somewhere where the guards aren't around to chuck it. Or better yet, use it to lure the guards to you for a knock or, send them searching so, you can get past them. How is that not awesome?

I even remember using my moss arrow to provide a soft cushion for the thing.

Was this done intentionally by LGS or was it an engine limitation? I don't know. But either way, calling it stupid is a bit extreme.

Why pick it up when you know it's not a loot? It kinda disciplines you when it comes to thieving. A Master Thief doesn't bother himself/herself (Hey ladies!) with anything other than loot.

[vasanx]

I didn't notice how awful the pagan-speech was in TDS...


Thief ended up being farcical thanks to stunts like this.


But really, go back and watch the eye-popping cutscene from TDP. Viktoria and Constantine sound scary as hell, even at the end when you can barely understand what they're saying. :D Their speech made them sound alien and other. Which they were, really. Wild and unfamiliar.

Those really were brilliant cutscenes. And did I mention how hot Viktoria was? :D

This is why I prefer TDP over TMA. Something was just not right bout The Trickster and Viktoria and they truly gave me the creeps.

Our favorite master thief is getting on in years, friends.

Heresy!

How could you? :)

Garrett becomes old? Cmon.

He was in his 20s in TDP and TMA. In TDS, he'd be in his early 30s at most. Even if Garrett is in his 40s in T4, which is so not right by the way, he'd still be good at what he does. Better in fact since, he has that much more experience now.

Just look at Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt, you really think these guys can't pull an Altair run?

You're not suggesting that Garrett is in his 50s now, do you? 60s? :eek:

Even so. This is my man Sly at 62.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8867/expendablesstallone.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=expendablesstallone.jpg)

Still think age has anything to do with anything?

[vasanx]

And I'd still probably hate you 4 days out of 7. :)

I'd hate em (no pun intended) 8 days out of 7 if there's no Garrett.

[WVI]

What? Since when is that stupid? :mad2:

That was suppose to add to the tension. You need to find a soft place to drop the stuff or get caught by the guard. Or you had to go somewhere where the guards aren't around to chuck it. Or better yet, use it to lure the guards to you for a knock or, send them searching so, you can get past them. How is that not awesome?

I even remember using my moss arrow to provide a soft cushion for the thing.

Was this done intentionally by LGS or was it an engine limitation? I don't know. But either way, calling it stupid is a bit extreme.

Why pick it up when you know it's not a loot? It kinda disciplines you when it comes to thieving. A Master Thief doesn't bother himself/herself (Hey ladies!) with anything other than loot.

Ever heard of artificial difficulty?

Seriously, don't tell me Garrett's just incapable of putting down an object without throwing it. That's dumb. Consider people who DON'T know you just can't do that. You couldn't just console them with "Jeez, a true master thief doesn't make mistakes like that! Guess you'll just have to deal with making the noise!". You can add difficulty and tension by letting the guards see through walls, too, but no sane person would add that feature.

[TazmanianD]

unless object highlighting=loot glint
Object highlighting (also known as frobbing) is different than loot glint. In TDS, loot glint was this sparkle of light that appeared on all loot regardless of how close you were to it or how much light there was in the room. Frobbing occurs when an object lights up when you get close enough to it to perform so action with it (like pick it up).

I personally think that loot glint is the second dumbest thing I have ever seen in a game. I find a huge part of the game play in Thief is the hunt for loot. I love looking over every square inch trying to find those hard-to-find pieces of loot, but loot glint entirely destroys that because it points out every piece of loot, even if it's all the way down at the end of the hall.

I understand the frustration that people have in that it's sometimes difficult to tell what's loot and what's not (and almost impossible in TDS without loot glint) but I think there are better solutions to that. Being able to quietly put down something you pick up is one. Another is a toned down version of loot glint. With mods in TDS, you can change the texture used for the glint so that it is impossible to see until you're right on top of the loot. Then, if you're trying to decide if something is loot or not, you just look at it for a moment and if you see a tiny glint, it's loot.

[Thieffanman]

Dev team, please consider that no one in their right mind would go about sneaking / thieving in a manner which broadcasts what they're up to. T3 has Garrett stuck in this awkward, slightly crouched "I'm sneaking" pose as if using pantomime to tell a story. What the hell?

Can we please just have a dignified, normal upright carriage (as depicted in TDP cutscenes)? Enough with the gimmicky BS.

I think the thing with the crouching/ sneaky stance in TDS was because Garrett's wanted poster was *everywhere*. This is supposed to remind the player to stick to the shadows and out of sight of regular people and town guards. A man who walks upright has no fear of the people around him-- good for a trained warrior (ie. guards and Hammerites); bad for a thief :).

My two cents: I say go with the half-crouch; it reinforces to the player that Garrett is a wanted criminal who *needs* to stay out of the public eye as much as possible.

. . .

On a different note: *Please* add some puzzle solving to T4. One of the things that made Final Fantasy X so cool (to me) was the fact that there was a lot of puzzle solving to be had. Same also for Onimusha 2, 3, and 4. Add a few puzzles, and I'll be a happy gamer :).

--Thieffanman

[TazmanianD]

*Please* add some puzzle solving to T4. One of the things that made Final Fantasy X so cool (to me) was the fact that there was a lot of puzzle solving to be had.
I wouldn't blame most people here for disagreeing with this since it's not very much a part of the series, but I too would be happy to see this. I enjoy a good adventure game with puzzle solving to be had. I wouldn't expect anything difficult, but something will do. Perhaps there are some ideas to be had from Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time which was an action game with some decent puzzling in it.

[Durinda D'Bry]

Could you please rephrase? You just touched on one of the the most annoyin feature in TDS but I can't understand your reasoning for it.

It's all the more frustrating when you say TDP and TMA's loot system is stupid.

How is it stupid again?

What I don't like in Thief 1 or 2 that sometimes I cannot understand if item is loot or not - it may shine bright but it is not valuable - let's say steel plate looks like silver. And when I frob junk I should put it down - it produces noise.

[Gabriel]

What I don't like in Thief 1 or 2 that sometimes I cannot understand if item is loot or not - it may shine bright but it is not valuable - let's say steel plate looks like silver. And when I frob junk I should put it down - it produces noise.

Not all loot is recognizable by simply looking at it from a distance (unless it sparkles, oh my!). I personally much prefer the Thief 1/2 approach. Pick up the damn thing, feel it, smell it, bite it, if it's gold/valuable, take it. If not, just drop it. I would imagine that looking through the eyes of a master thief, valuables don't glint, especially IN THE DARK?? :D But then again, I'm no master thief..

edit- also, imagine you being in somebody's house (that you've never been in before) and automatically knowing what's valuable and what's not. pretty unrealistic, don't you think?

[Abelo]

*Please* add some puzzle solving to T4. One of the things that made Final Fantasy X so cool (to me) was the fact that there was a lot of puzzle solving to be had. Same also for Onimusha 2, 3, and 4. Add a few puzzles, and I'll be a happy gamer
I'd agree with caution. ONLY if it adds to the atmosphere/mission plot, and is absolutely well integrated it almost feels natural. Puzzling in Thief can be a double-sided blade if you put a master burglar moving stupid boxes or pushing button sequences, it'd totally ruin the atmosphere and the point of the game.

[Gabriel]

Puzzles could work the way they work in Half Life 2, I think. A good example based on physics I found in the Tears of St. Lucia mission, of the Dark Mod when you had to destroy the statue. That kind of puzzle, me likey.

Come to think of it, the T4 devs should really keep an eye on The Dark Mod people (maybe even give them a job to work at T4 :) ). As far as I've seen, it includes pretty much everything that hardcore Thief fans want (mainly because they are big fans themselves and because they listen to suggestions from other fans).

And no, I'm not hired by the Dark Mod team, just appreciate and admire what they do.

[esme]

a quick comment on the parkour that people are clamouring for and pointing to Assassins Creed as an example

in The Dark Project and The Metal Age, Garrett already had parkour skills, he could run along rooftops and ledges, leap across alleys, jump, mantle and climb, usually all that was lacking was a place to use these skills and that was more due to the game engine not being able to handle extremely long or overly complex sightlines

ok, the parkour skills wouldn't let you leap wall to wall in an alley way slowly getting higher per jump until you reach the top, you couldn't run along vertical surfaces for any distance, but they were perfect for the game

further the parkour skills were completely under the control of the player, it wasn't just a case of picking a direction and keeping your finger on the forward button leaving the avatar to deal with the hard bits, if you wanted to be good at it you had to practice

as I've said before I want control of Garretts movement, I want to be able to make mistakes and I manifestly do not want what is essentially an autopilot

there are times when I've been playing that I misjudge something,a leap over a deep hole, and thats me scrabbling frantically at the lip of the gap on the other side moaning "nooooooo no no no getupgetupgetup YESSSS!" when I finally make it, I'm one of those poor deluded people who lean to the side in my chair when Garrett looks round a corner like I'm going to see more if I do, I'm the one who jumps back when something surprising happens, sadly I never managed that level of immersion with deadly shadows and the clunky movement was a big factor in that

I do not want the computer to play the game for me and relegate me to the status of a spectator who occasionally pushes a button, I want to play the game, thats why I buy them

Thief is not meant to be easy and it isn't, you have to observe, think and plan and if you get it wrong you have to have an escape route planned, thats a big reason why I like it

[WVI]

I might agree with the glint compromise from before - objects only glint if you get close enough and look at them for a second. That one at least makes sense.

I really feel like too many of these suggestions are naysayed just because they weren't in the original two games. I'm not calling bias on everyone here, but there's definitely some xenophobia. <_<

[Myth]

Ok, first of all this will be a long post, stop reading right now if you have the attention span of a gnat, instead of complaining about it later on.

Eidos: you know we will buy your game. Thief has a solid fanbase and even if you made a piece of carpet, we would still buy it - yes we are that devoted. But unlike like the Might and Magic series, don't try to cash in on the game's name alone, but rather live up to the expectations of the fans.

Making games is a business, and you want the game to sell, we know that. But, making good games requires passion, not just wandering on how many different platforms you can stretch the game, and how you can lower the PG rating so more 11 year olds can have their parents buy it.

I don't mean to be negative, but rather advise you to listen to the fans. (I know Renee has been lurking around the TTLG forums, so obviously you have taken things rather to heart, for which i applaud you)

Here are my thoughts on the new game and it's relationship to the old games. They are my personal views and I'd gladly discuss and defend them with the rest of the community.

Things that we *must* have in the new Thief game:

1. Garrett must be the protagonist.

It Garrett is such a major part of the original games' atmosphere - his sarcasm, his neutrality and his supreme mastery as a thief are the reason we fell in love with this series. Thief without garret is like a swimming pool without water.

2. Have Stephen Russell be the voice of Garrett.

This one i think speaks for itself. No one can replace mr. Russell's talent. Period.

3. Keep the same setting/timeline.

Thief is about the City. And the City is set in a noir steampunk universe. Don't make it strictly medieval, don't make it modern age with m4a1s and laser aiming. Stick to what we have enjoyed so far - you can't go wrong with that. A Thief game set in the 21st century will make lots of fans try to come to your houses and kill you. (ok maybe not, but it would certanly have a very negative backlash throughout the community).

4. Keep the same gameplay.

Use light and sound, make us sneak around, give us our good old rope arrows. We are not asking for much, really. Don't try to be too innovative and add some stupidity like bullet time, repeating crossbow, jetpack or whatnot. Garrett uses his sword, blackjack, bow and his tools. Make us sneak around, listen to the footsteps of patrolling guards, pick locks, climb atop the roofs... Just like before.

5. Make the game challenging.

Make the difficulty levels true to their names - we know that a lot of the younger gamers like to "win" and "kill things", and that they will be a large part of your customer base, but think about the other, truly devoted ones, that want a real challenge when they select Expert. Hell, maybe even add a Ghost setting for the extreme pleasure of much of the older fanbase.

6. Emphasize on the level design.

The first two games had superb level design, even if the editor is very buggy and has limitations. Look for inspiration at Return to the Cathedral. The Sword, First City Bank and Trust, Down in the Bonehoard etc. etc. Because TDS was a very poor console port, it's levels were small, and quite frankly, they were lacking in general, apart from a few gems. The TDS team knew that we liked the Haunted Cathedral for example, so they made Shalebridge Cradle, which does continue the fine legacy. You also can't go wrong with looking at some of the top tier fan missions - their level design is superior to anything made in an official game, as FM authors dedicated months, even years to their projects.

7. Emphasize on sound as much as on visuals.

The ambient sounds in the first two games could give you chills even if you were just walking down a corridor, the conversations were superb - give us the "join us, join usss, joins us nowwww" of the haunts, give us more hillarious conversations between Benny and Mortimer, give us creepy ambient sounds, and definitely give us more Garret monologue.

8. Make the story good.

Whomever is in charge of the storyline, they better have a clue... This can make or break the game, as it's vital to the immersion factor. Research the previous games, all the readables, conversations, unused conversations even. Try to make it as cannon as you can, without being LGS. Don't pull stuff out of your arse and suddenly tell us that Garret had a long lost brother, or some other soap opera script material. Be consistent, and be original at the same time.


Things to avoid like the Old Quarter plague:

1: Do not continue the legacy of TDS

and make the game for a console with all of the console limitations in mind - a few buttons on the controllers, unable to name our saves, small levels, loading screens between levels, auto-aiming backstabs and knockouts... Thief has and always will be, PC game. If you fail at this we can always keep making more FMs for Thief 2, and you know it. Once again, we know that you need to broaden the market so you get more sales, but start from the PC and then work your way to the consoles.

2. Do not remove factions, enemies or tools

We like our rope arrows, we like our Hammerites and we like our Haunts. There are things that are to Thief like bread is to toast - you just can't have one without it.

3. Do not soften the game up.

As i said, don't go overboard and make the game fluffy and rainbowy, so that it appeals to kids. Don't mellow the horror and depression elements, the undead and the darkness. It's what we like. Also, once more, keep it difficult at higher levels. In some FMs we have had to literally save at every turn. In TDS one could go on for hours without saving.

4. Do not change the City drastically.

A new neighborhood might have popped up on the outskirts, but the map should largely stay the same. The noble families, major landmarks, the river - they should all be present in the new game.

And there we go, i am done with my somewhat ranty post. I hope you take my words in to consideration on your next meeting when you are looking at a whiteboard and are deciding the future of Thief. If anyone wants to discuss, I'd be happy to oblige.

[WVI]

Like that. I'm not trying to be a **** or anything, but that whole post was "hey, make sure this is basically the first two Thief games, thanks".

[Myth]

I reckon you are not a fan of the first two games? This post is "hey, make sure you keep the winning formula". TDP was, in all aspects, a rule breaker and it basically started the whole genre of the first person sneaker. There is nothing wrong, IMO, to keep consistent with something that has been praised as the best.

[WVI]

I'm a fan of the whole series. But there's far too much "It's not a Thief game with/without _______" on this forum, and it's just a mental shield against new ideas.

Don't get me wrong - I agree, many things should stay the same. The stealth, the writing, the nonlinear level design pre-DS...but all of your bullet points could be summed up in the single sentence "more of the same". It's not something I'm against, but what does the game need to actually progress? That's what we should be focusing on. I think we've hammered in the point that every single person here loves Thief 2.

[Myth]

I'm a fan of the whole series. But there's far too much "It's not a Thief game with/without _______" on this forum, and it's just a mental shield against new ideas.

Don't get me wrong - I agree, many things should stay the same. The stealth, the writing, the nonlinear level design pre-DS...but all of your bullet points could be summed up in the single sentence "more of the same". It's not something I'm against, but what does the game need to actually progress? That's what we should be focusing on. I think we've hammered in the point that every single person here loves Thief 2. The game needs to be better from a technological point of view to progress. It needs to utilize 2009 hardware. It needs to further and deepen the story and expand the universe. It needs to tell us more about Garret, his motivation, his character. It needs to give us new ways of stealing things, new tools and weapons.

But all of this must stay consistent with the games so far, and it should not replace things we already love. Be honest and tell me did you like it when in TDS there were no rope arrows, no swimming and no rooftop climbing?

[WVI]

I liked the game by its own merits instead of looking at what could've been, disappointing myself every few minutes. >_> It's my favorite Thief game, in fact. *gasp*

I'm just saying, start thinking progressively. It's shocking how few new ideas have actually been presented so far, swamped over with "keep this, don't keep this". And don't worry about me being stupid - I know it's an important thing to know. But after everything so far, do you really think any developers reading this need any more input in that regard?

[Myth]

I liked the game by its own merits instead of looking at what could've been, disappointing myself every few minutes. >_> It's my favorite Thief game, in fact. *gasp* You are one of a very few people, or you are one of the younger generation Thief fans that first encountered the series with TDS and then played the first two games... I think the majority of the older gamers here are just afraid that this might turn in to a poor attempt at innovation, when a lot of the old material is pure gold and honestly, has not been topped yet by other games.

[WVI]

Whether or not I like it the best has nothing to do with ignorance or some sort of weird reverse elitism. You're off point. Forget my opinions. What I'm talking about is the tendency of most of the suggestions so far.

[vasanx]

Loot glint is a great thing. Take, for example, the two types of candlesticks - loot and junk. I shouldn't have to explain the benefit there. If you feel it breaks the immersion with a silly-looking gameplay element, think of it this way - Garrett's a thief. He's got a trained eye for loot.


No, it's not. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion. No harm in that. But you kinda stabbed yourself in the back there.

"He's got a trained eye for loot." Exactly. Our eyes. We should be able to look at somethin and determine whether that's a loot or not. Not be directed to it by the game. Loot glint was especially criminal in TDS because you enter a room and you can see the damn loot from a mile away.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/75/lootglintsmall.th.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lootglintsmall.jpg)

They might as well added a floating arrow on all the loots. Oh, wait a minute, they did that for the training mission, didn't they?

The thing that annoyed me the most bout TDS is that you don't really have to search for anything. No wonder I finished TDS so quickly. I remember searching for that damn ring in TDP or TMA for an hour before I realized I haven't checked behind that big pot yet.

You get that sense of achievement and satisfaction that TDS was completely devoid of.

And it could have been easily avoided if the candlesticks or the cups or whatever in TDS didn't look so similar.

I mean, in TDP/TMA you know it's a loot coz you can see that it's made out of gold. This was not the case in TDS.

I'm thinking it's the new lighting system. In a dimly lit area, everything tends to looks the same, right? So, that's why they had this loot glint thing.

What they should have done is give Garrett a small lamp or something so that he can identify which stuff is made of gold. That would have been a much, much better solution.



And climbing? Wonky controls in Deadly Shadows aside, it's a great thing to have more clever ways to escape and more uses of the dimension of height. It adds to level design; there's nothing bad about it.

I think the general consensus here is that no one would have cared about lion-o's glove if rope and vine arrows were included.

In fact more people would have praised it but it's hard too root for something when it becomes the replacement for the thing you enjoyed the most in the previous games.

I liked the climbing gloves too but I just want my rope arrows back, that's all people are saying.

[Nate]

Thief DS was a good game! I also played DP and MA when they came out...hehe, I remember my kick ass Athlon CPU and Voodoo graphics card fondly.

Thief DS had, in relation to stealth, a superior shadow and sound system by far. It also blew away the first games with a city to explore and money carrying over from missions. Finally, having fences (with personality) and actual stores was a huge PLUS.

The first 2 games were works of art, but don't knock what DS had just because it had flaws. Simply point out the flaws so the devs don't make the same mistakes.

[Myth]

The loot carry over in TDS was a good idea, but implemented oh-so-poorely. I finished the game with over 15,000 gold (certainly more, i just don't remember the number). Honestly, i don't like using consumables that much, but if i do, it's mainly holy water. There is just nothing to spend the metric tons of loot you get in TDS. Back in the old games, anything over than 2,000 haul was a king's ransom for garret. Now he can make 500 just by walking down the street.

[TazmanianD]

"He's got a trained eye for loot." Exactly. Our eyes. We should be able to look at somethin and determine whether that's a loot or not. Not be directed to it by the game.
I very much agree. Part of the game is exercising our skills as players to do thiefy things without the game doing them for us. Identifying loot by sight is part of that.

On the other hard, I do think an argument can be made for those things that are loot that don't stand out at all. I remember almost missing paintings because only certain paintings are loot and others are not. How can you tell there without getting close enough to frob the things. I remember spending hours trying to satisfy the expert objectives in Thief 1 in the mission down below in the ruins before I realized that those blue glass tile things hanging up along the ceiling were loot and I could grab all of them.

[vasanx]

Ever heard of artificial difficulty?

Ever heard of engine limitation?

The only way to place the object back would have been to say, click again and the worthless cup would magically reappear in its original spot. How weird would that have been?

Obviously, animating Garrett's hand to place the cup back on the table would have been too hard to do and that's why you can only chuck it. We're talkin bout 1998. Let's talk with some relevance here.

I don't think LGS would have purposely removed the ability to place back an object gently, just to make your life harder. Now, that's artificial difficulty!

We get LGS' design decision.

If makin the best out of a bad situation (chuck it somewhere else, use it to lure enemy, distract enemy, moss arrow for cushion and etc.) is too much for you...

...THEN STOP PICKING UP WORTHLESS JUNK!


Consider people who DON'T know you just can't do that

Who are these people anyway? Do they suffer from short term memory loss?
How hard is it not to do it once you've learned your lesson?

Plus, it was so easy to differentiate the loot back then. Why would you still grab the wooden cup? Why?! :mad2:


Jeez, a true master thief doesn't make mistakes like that! Guess you'll just have to deal with making the noise!

The hell I can't. When people play Garrett irresponsibly and then blame the game, that's annoying.

And when you blame an old game for its technology limitation, that's just, plain rude.


You can add difficulty and tension by letting the guards see through walls, too, but no sane person would add that feature.

:lol: (Insert Buddy Love laugh from standup scene in The Nutty Professor here)

[vasanx]

We had that in the first two games as well.....

You're right BlooferLady. But in TDP and TMA, things will come into view in its original color. The way it would look in the real world.

I know things don't exactly "light up" in the real world but adding that God awful blue tint just ruined it completely.

TDP and TMA threaded that fine line between make believe and reality with finesse. TDS simply crapped all over that effort.

There are people who don't mind it. We get that. But if the same highlighting system from TDP and TMA was brought to TDS, you guys would have been ok with that too, right?

You see what I'm gettin at? By keepin TDP and TMA fans in mind, things like this could have been easily avoided.

This is why TDS irritates the bejesus out of us. Instead of improving on LGS' model, Ion Storm said screw it and lets make our version of it. Ion Storm committed IP theft in broad daylight. Plain and simple.

If it was a separate game altogether, like Bioshock was to SS2, we would have enjoyed it. For real.

[vasanx]

I personally think that loot glint is the second dumbest thing I have ever seen in a game. I find a huge part of the game play in Thief is the hunt for loot. I love looking over every square inch trying to find those hard-to-find pieces of loot, but loot glint entirely destroys that because it points out every piece of loot, even if it's all the way down at the end of the hall.

:friends:

[vasanx]

What I don't like in Thief 1 or 2 that sometimes I cannot understand if item is loot or not - it may shine bright but it is not valuable - let's say steel plate looks like silver. And when I frob junk I should put it down - it produces noise.

Holy crap!

I just fired up the Lord Bafford mission to test out your complaint and instead I found the "fix" to this noise problem.

I really think everyone should replay the games again if we are gonna be arguing bout it.

Why did you or rather why did we all who want to put down the junk keep right-clicking the mouse?

This is really embarassing. Good old LGS did think about it after all.

Go and check your Controls Menu again and you'll find the 'R' key binded to the following command, 'Drop Item'.

Right-click was always meant to fling stuff.

R just drops the item slowly. There's still some noise but I doubt the guards can hear it unless they're really close. Wow! How the hell did I miss that?

Cmon now. Let us all take a moment to feel ashamed of ourselves. :o

But I think my previous argument still has validity left in em. Stop grabbing carelessly would have solved the problem somewhat (I don't remember bout the silver plates but that wud be hard to differentiate I guess).

[vasanx]

edit- also, imagine you being in somebody's house (that you've never been in before) and automatically knowing what's valuable and what's not. pretty unrealistic, don't you think?

:thumb:

[GmanPro]

Holy crap!

I just fired up the Lord Bafford mission to test out your complaint and instead I found the "fix" to this noise problem.

I really think everyone should replay the games again if we are gonna be arguing bout it.

Why did you or rather why did we all who want to put down the junk keep right-clicking the mouse?

This is really embarassing. Good old LGS did think about it after all.

Go and check your Controls Menu again and you'll find the 'R' key binded to the following command, 'Drop Item'.

Right-click was always meant to fling stuff.

R just drops the item slowly. There's still some noise but I doubt the guards can hear it unless they're really close. Wow! How the hell did I miss that?

Cmon now. Let us all take a moment to feel ashamed of ourselves. :o

But I think my previous argument still has validity left in em. Stop grabbing carelessly would have solved the problem somewhat (I don't remember bout the silver plates but that wud be hard to differentiate I guess).

I've known that forever :hmm:

[TazmanianD]

Go and check your Controls Menu again and you'll find the 'R' key binded to the following command, 'Drop Item'.
Yeah, I don't think I knew about that the first time I played. It's definitely better than throwing the item. Also, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that the noise is even less if you crouch when you press 'R'.

[vasanx]

a quick comment on the parkour that people are clamouring for and pointing to Assassins Creed as an example


Where are they? Please guide my bow in their direction. I got a fire arrow with their names on it.

I'm all for improving Garrett's movement but please don't bring in Assassin's Snore and Mirror Fudge into it.


there are times when I've been playing that I misjudge something,a leap over a deep hole, and thats me scrabbling frantically at the lip of the gap on the other side moaning "nooooooo no no no getupgetupgetup YESSSS!" when I finally make it, I'm one of those poor deluded people who lean to the side in my chair when Garrett looks round a corner like I'm going to see more if I do, I'm the one who jumps back when something surprising happens, sadly I never managed that level of immersion with deadly shadows and the clunky movement was a big factor in that


That was cute by the way. :)

And trust me, I did the leaning in my chair too. If that's not immersive, I don't know what is.

What EM could do is allow three modes for jumping.

a. Jump with good momentum= Success
b. Jump with too little momentum = You fall, obviously.
c. Jump with a momentum somewhere in between the above two = You miss the landing but you'll grab the ledge, barely. Garrett can even breathe heavily here. (Your scrabbling gave me that idea.)

And, you need to mantle up within a specified time or lose your grip and fall. It's an awesome idea. I know. Feel free to shower me with praises. :D

But seriously how tense would that be? Plus it reduces the frustration of falling to your death by a bit if you're a lousy jumper.


I do not want the computer to play the game for me and relegate me to the status of a spectator who occasionally pushes a button, I want to play the game, thats why I buy them

Thief is not meant to be easy and it isn't, you have to observe, think and plan and if you get it wrong you have to have an escape route planned, thats a big reason why I like it

Ditto!

[vasanx]

I've known that forever :hmm:

Thank you for rubbing that in. :)

[WVI]

Vasanx, regarding your big response post, you cannot tell me it would've looked any more awkward to have the item simply reappear on the table than appeared about a foot above the table and dropped, or slammed on the table point-blank somehow like what currently happens.

Blame the player all you want, but to be forced to make noise, alerting nearby foes, because you picked up an object that isn't loot doesn't make sense. [In response to an earlier post, setting down the object from even an inch does alert nearby guards; I'm certain of that. As far as I can tell, there's no way to do it silently, which anybody with hands can do in real life.]

Of course I know what engine limitations are, and for the object to be placed cleanly on a surface by clicking it while holding something was not impossible back then.

I mean...You could have a velociraptor devour Garrett every time you jump on a steel surface, teaching you not to jump on steel surfaces, but at some point the thought that it doesn't actually make sense must cross your mind.

[vasanx]

A Thief game set in the 21st century will make lots of fans try to come to your houses and kill you.


You killed me Myth! :lol:

Awesome, awesome post. Loved the comments on targetting the game at kiddies especially.

[Nate]

Yeah, I hated how Garrett would slam down items after picking them up....like he was pissed they weren't worth $ or something.

What is messed up is the guys working on that Doom 3 'Dark Mod' are able to move items around and place them quietly back on surfaces. It is too bad the devs in Thief DS weren't able to do so as well.

[Myth]

WVI you really don't like the first two games, you say otherwise but you talk against the Dark Engine with a passion... Once you learn to use drop item (i remap it to backspace always). and CROUCH when you are dropping it, it won't make noise. You know what doesn't make sense? Garret instantly sinking like a rock and drowning in any puddle of water in TDS. THAT'S a major game flaw and immersion breaker, much more so than the noise a kettle makes when you chuck it at a granite wall.

edit: vasanx, thanks :) I'm sure others agree with us on the points i made as well.

[WVI]

It's such an archaic leftover that I'm really surprised it was still around in DS...

Actually, I really have to talk about the "targetting to kiddies" thing - On what planet was that ever a concern? Did anybody really think the lead designer at Eidos suddenly had a stroke and decided to replace Garrett's blackjack with a lollipop?

WVI you really don't like the first two games, you say otherwise but you talk against the Dark Engine with a passion... Once you learn to use drop item (i remap it to backspace always). and CROUCH when you are dropping it, it won't make noise. You know what doesn't make sense? Garret instantly sinking like a rock and drowning in any puddle of water in TDS. THAT'S a major game flaw and immersion breaker, much more so than the noise a kettle makes when you chuck it at a granite wall.

Er - Are you feeling okay? You're trying to convince me that I don't actually like the first two games, you're trying to convince me that Deadly Shadows is bad for some reason, you were trying to convince me earlier that I only liked Deadly Shadows the most for whatever insane reason as opposed to the game's actual quality, and now you're defending the second game like I'm going after its mother? Seriously, no offense at all here, but what are you trying to prove? (for the record, I'm currently playing through The Metal Age and having a blast)

[Myth]

I am proving a point that changing things is not always a good thing. You said you liked TDS better, and I'm giving you hand-on examples that it's worse, instead of making up examples that could go wrong with Thief 4. Regarding the first two games and your velociraptor comment - that's why i tried to defend them. The player was punished for being noisy, or for not knowing how not to be noisy in the case of picking up junk.

The auto targetring for backstabs and blackjacks is IMO, a bad thing. And you know why - it takes away the skill required to know when you are close enough to swing and not miss. It's also a clear sign of TDS being a half-arsed console port and not a real PC game. But let's not turn this in to a one on one debate, we both have our positions and they are not likely to change. Peace :)

[WVI]

I don't know how many times I have to mention how nuts that is. No, the player is not punished for being noisy. What's there to punish him for? It would not deserve punishment if such things didn't make noise for no reason in the first place.

Think about what you're saying. You want to punish the player...for picking up an object.

God knows I see people picking things up and smack them across the throat.

And the craziest thing about the mechanic is that it was never meant to punish the player. It was clearly an oversight. When you pick up an object, you have the option of putting it anywhere, but because the game doesn't support simple object placement, it will always end up hitting the floor or something else, creating noise. And it was mentioned that you can make much less noise by getting as close to the ground as possible. That's correct - and once again, it was never intentional. You're going out of the way to use the physics in such a way that the thing that was never supposed to happen...only somewhat happens. Why are people defending this? It wasn't a part of the game design, it was a mistake.

Well, it sure is late, and I don't want any of my family to know I'm awake - OH GOD I JUST PICKED UP MY COMPUTER MOUSE. What do I do!? Hmmm, I could just hold it forever...

You said you liked TDS better, and I'm giving you hand-on examples that it's worse, instead of making up examples that could go wrong with Thief 4.

I know. You want to, for some reason, convince me that it's worse, even though that has nothing to do with this topic. It's not really working so far.

[vasanx]

Also, I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that the noise is even less if you crouch when you press 'R'.

Haha. I just checked it out. You're totally right. It doesn't make as much noise when you drop it while crouching.

Wow! Did LGS really think it through or what? When you crouch, closer to ground, force = mass times acceleration, less distance is less acceleration and thus less force in the end.

I'm not even sure if I didn't know bout this back then. I've been basing my argument from memory.

That's why I've reinstalled all the games now. Let's hope I don't embarass myself again.

[Thieffanman]

Do: One thing I want to keep for T4 is Garrett's snide remarks during a mission, like in TDS. Why?

Because they gave the character depth and a sense of identity. The player knew what Garrett thought and felt, right down to his sense of humor and state of mind.

While I agree that many positive things can be taken from "Assassin's Creed" that can enhance T4, one of the things that Assassin's Creed lacked was giving Altair the same degree of depth that Garrett had. The only time we really knew what Altair was thinking was during his cut scenes; we knew what was on Garrett's mind *during his mission*.

--Thieffanman

P.S. Feel free to correct me about Assassin's Creed; it's been a while since I've played, but I don't remember Altair making smart-*ssed comments like Garrett mid-game, under a player's control. :)

[vasanx]

Vasanx, regarding your big response post, you cannot tell me it would've looked any more awkward to have the item simply reappear on the table than appeared about a foot above the table and dropped, or slammed on the table point-blank somehow like what currently happens.

Blame the player all you want, but to be forced to make noise, alerting nearby foes, because you picked up an object that isn't loot doesn't make sense. [In response to an earlier post, setting down the object from even an inch does alert nearby guards; I'm certain of that. As far as I can tell, there's no way to do it silently, which anybody with hands can do in real life.]

Of course I know what engine limitations are, and for the object to be placed cleanly on a surface by clicking it while holding something was not impossible back then.

I mean...You could have a velociraptor devour Garrett every time you jump on a steel surface, teaching you not to jump on steel surfaces, but at some point the thought that it doesn't actually make sense must cross your mind.

WVI, regarding your not so big response post, I can tell you this much.

I've acknowledged in my earlier post bout using the R key instead of Right-clicking the mouse.

I think that pretty much solves the noise issue.

You don't have to tell me it doesn't make sense. You're only being condescending.

My post was meant to offer workarounds for Durinda D'Bry so that he/she (no offence) can replay TDP and TMA more comfortably.

I still stand by my disciplining yourself argument. "Oh! Look at me, I can't differentiate loot from junk" is what ultimately gave birth to the asinine loot glint system.

As for the devs who are reading this, the gist of it is this: Design hand animations in T4 so that Garrett can put back objects gently.

p.s. Velociraptor? Really?

[vasanx]

Actually, I really have to talk about the "targetting to kiddies" thing - On what planet was that ever a concern?


Try planet Earth.


Did anybody really think the lead designer at Eidos suddenly had a stroke and decided to replace Garrett's blackjack with a lollipop?


Lollipop? Really?

It is a legitimate concern because this may be news to you but TDS is very kiddish looking. It comes nowhere close to the mature feel of TDP and TMA.

1. What's with the sparkly thing in the moonlight near windows? Did the Fairy Godmother just pass by?

2. Arrow Trails?

3. The noise the noisearrow makes? Making them sound like kiddie firecrackers was a "brilliant" decision on the sound department.

4. Pagan talk. I don't know how I managed to get the Jacknall's Paw without turning off the speaker back when I played it. Their dialogue is fu*kin ridiculous. BlooferLady knows what I'm talkin bout.

"I hearsie. You better fearsie. I'm gonna screwsie." -Sie this, -Sie that. No wonder the Hammerites wanted to snuff them.

5. And to borrow a term from Jilly The Taffer, TDS was a watercoloured world. That sucked out any potential for the game to be believable and realistic. Watercolor? Kids? Get it?

There's more but you get what I mean. But then again, you won't seeing as how you didn't get it from Myth's post.

I'm pretty sure no parents would have blinked twice when their kids played TDS.

Everything looked pretty and cartoon like. Not a hint of the bleak and depressing setting from TDP and TMA.

Ion Storm made a heinous mistake by cheapening the realism of the Thief universe.

You're playing TMA for cryin out loud. Don't you see the difference?

Just imagine if LGS didn't disappear into the abyss and they released the sequel to TMA. Do you really think it would have looked anywhere close to TDS?

Get why we're pissed now?

[ToMegaTherion]

Loot glint is probably reasonable in Deadly Shadows given the general drab greyness compared with a sharp and stark style of the previous two games. It didn't have to be so annoying a colour and such a long range though (although this is quite handy when ghosting, because you can identify where you have to get to for the loot rather than have to search everywhere, and also quite good for those of us who find 90% loot requirement rather tiresome).

Can we cut out some of the more extreme outbursts here as well? I can well understand people liking/dlsliking things, but the constant stating of fairly contentious opinions as things that Must Not Be Disputed is somewhat over-the-top.

[vasanx]

...things that Must Not Be Disputed...

Could you be more specific here? Please? I'm pretty sure everything is open for dispute.

There's nothing wrong with extreme outbursts as long as everyone plays by the rules.

No personal attacks. Just argue your points and use mean adjectives on everything except the posters themselves.

Nobody wants things to degenerate into a flame war. And nobody wants to get booted off here.

We can agree to disagree. :group_hug:

[Stick35]

The E-***** measuring in here is amazing. Simply post the do's and dont's you would like to see instead of telling everyone which person offended you by saying what or simply just bashing someone elses idea. Those people are clearly doing what this thread is for, you people however are not.

Building around the Idea of Thief 2 would be a preferable idea for Thi4f. The city level where the 4 guards are arguing and using language that is specific to the game and time period the game is set in wasn't necessary but it added to gameplay making you think although it was clearly a trigger but makes you think there is a world that is spinning and you are in it just as much as they are. Having people going around and doing their business late at night like getting ready or bed or tidying up the house or any various combination things makes it feel more real and the 360 and PS3 certainly are capable of that.

The sound of the environment you are in is a big plus as well. Garret's voice was one of my favorite aspects of the game. It didn't really sound like he was voice acting too much and not making a weird guttural sound to make him sound "Cooler".

AI will be improved since the technology is vastly superior to what it was back then so that is just a given.

Having the combat be kinda clumsy makes sense since he is not a character like Drizzt or something inhuman. You don't want it to be anything like a halo when you find the best strat is jumping around to dodge.

[ToMegaTherion]

Let's do an interesting experiment to see what happens...

I think the developers should once again have no swimming in the game. I think that is likely to make it better than a game with swimming in (I actually think this is true, it's not just inflammatory trolling!).

[Nate]

Here's a few of the ideas floating around in my skull during the last couple of days. I thought the Devs might find some of this interesting.

These ideas are already scattered through the forum, but it is nice to have them all consolidated in one place.


CITY HUB:

The City Hub is a great idea that would be rewarding to the player IF it is well done. Thief Deadly Shadows had a City Hub that felt constrained and rushed. While not awful, it still really needed more little quests/missions and larger (more fleshed out) city sections.

However, IF the Devs don't have the time/resources to fully develop the City Hub, then they should abandon it and instead concentrate on maximizing the Mission Maps.

I would be fine with going from mission to mission, with stops at Garrett's hide out between missions (with loot automatically being sold to fences). There could be a screen for Garrett's place that allows the player to swap out/purchase weapons/armor/equipment.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I would like a City Hub...but not at the expense of the mission maps or other critical aspects of the game.


MAGIC ITEMS CONTAIN LIMITED DURATION CHARGE

In Thief 1 and 2, Garrett's magical equipment disappeared between missions. It occurred to me that perhaps this could be explained away as magical items only holding a 'charge' for a short period of time (ie, a single night).

By doing this, the Devs of Thief 1 and 2 prevented players from amassing a ton of magical equipment....a problem Thief Deadly Shadows suffered greatly from.

Now, what if Thief 4 had a system where magic items (ie, all arrows (besides broadhead arrows), potions, bombs, holy water, flash bangs, and so on) had a magic charge that quickly wore out. So, players would need to purchase new magic items between missions.

If we use the same 'day' system as Thief DS, players could explore the City Hub as much as they like. However, once they complete a campaign mission, the game resumes the following night.....and all their magical items would have lost their charges.

At this point, players would need to purchase more magical equipment to get them through that nights adventures in the City Hub, as well as that nights main campaign mission.

With this system, players would be less likely to amass the incredible fortunes and hordes of magical items collected in Thief Deadly Shadows.

*Just don't repeat Thief Deadly Shadows City Hub that regenerates magic arrows all over the place on a nightly basis!


SPECIAL ITEMS

The above suggested limited magical charge on magic items would help reduce the huge fortunes gathered during Thief Deadly Shadows.

However, particularly frugal thieves and ghosters would likely still collect more than their fair share (hehe).

So, perhaps Garrett's suppliers could also sell somewhat more potent versions of magical equipment (maybe even special magical items like rings and such)...but at a MUCH greater cost.

This would allow frugal/ghost players to have something worthwhile/interesting to spend their money on.


ABILITY TO CUSTOMIZE YOUR EQUIPMENT LOAD OUT

It would be VERY nice if Garrett had a bit more choice in what he carries around with him.

For example, it would be great if Garrett could choose to leave his short sword/dagger/any other piece of equipment at home when he goes out.

Also, if Garrett is allowed to carry 20 arrows max, he should have the ability to fully choose which type(s) of arrows he will carry.

Garrett should also have the ability to drop equipment/weapons if he so chooses. If he has a full load of arrows, but finds a nifty gas arrow, Garrett SHOULD be able to drop an arrow and pick up the gas arrow...without shooting off and wasting the first arrow. This way, Garrett could possibly come back and get the arrow he dropped.

Stealth System Requests

Please keep the stealth detection system advanced enough to pose a challenge for players.

I would like the AI to be able to make out player silhouette's if they are framed by a bright background....even if the player is standing on a shadow.

I would like ambient noise to have an effect at drowning out player noise.

I am even leaning towards getting rid of the 'light gem' altogether and force the player to consider for himself/herself just how visible their hiding spot is (based on the games lighting engine).

I would like the ability to drop items silently.

I would like the ability to manipulate items....an interesting example on doing this is The Dark Mod (doom 3 mod).


3rd Person Perspective Versus 1rst Person Perspective

I would like to see the game support ONLY 1rst Person Perspective

By doing this, maps could be made without worrying about 3rd person camera clipping issues.

Game Immersion would be deeper...you ARE Garrett, not simply watching Garrett.

Not having to deal with switching camera views = some saved time for the Devs that could better be used elsewhere.


Multiplayer

I would LOVE to have both 'sneak match' multiplayer, thieves versus guards multiplayer and even campaign Co-Op Multiplayer. This would be amazing fun....and anyone who doesn't think so simply doesn't have friends to play with.

There are very few members here who are against multiplayer in Thief 4 in principle. However, those who are AGAINST multiplayer are so because they think the Devs will reduce effort on the single player part of the game in order to complete the multiplayer system.

This is a legit concern. Of course, the single player experience can't be sacrificed for the sake of multiplayer.

However, if the Devs think they can handle it, then I am all for it. I would also pay for a multiplayer component add on after the game has already be released if the Devs don't think they can do both at the same time.

No worries, if the Devs don't want to introduce multiplayer, I can always get my fill with The Dark Mod once it is completed.

Weight/Encumbrance System

One of my personal grips of the Thief series is how Garrett is able to run around with 100 lbs of equipment/weapons/loot on his back without any penalty. I'm pretty strong, but even carrying 60 lbs on my back for more than a 1/2 hour is a pain. Not to metion, with 60 lbs on my back, I am not fast, nor quiet, nor stealthy.

I would like to see a system where EACH piece of equipment/weapon/armor has an encumbrance value. The greater the total encumbrance value, the greater the penalty Garrett suffers in regards to his Stealth/Climbing Speed.

While I would like to see a penalty applied to running speed, this would irritate players who want to simply get from A to B in a timely manor. So, that is why I only suggest a climbing speed penalty.

By incorporating this encumbrance system alongside the ability to fully customize your equipment load out, players can make VERY different choices on how to complete missions.

Some players will prefer to take very little equipment in order to maximize their Stealth skill and ghost the mission. Other players will fill up on equipment/weapons/armor and will take a more confrontational approach. Other players will approach missions with a more balanced philosophy. All of this adds to replayability.

The only problem I can see are Stealth/Climbing Speed penalties changing as players shoot off arrows, use items and find new equipment. While I might think this is cool, others might not agree.

Alternative to Weight/Encumbrance System

This is an idea introduced by Crypto (and I believe supported by Platinumoxicity) to introduce more realism in regards to Garrett's carry capacity.

Basically, the Game Menu would have a 'Carry Capacity' Difficulty setting (maybe Easy, Medium, Hard, Expert and Realistic). Easy would allow an insane amount of weapons/armor/equipment to be carried by players. Realistic level however would severely limit how much Garrett can carry.

As an example, Garrett on Realistic 'Carry Capacity' can only carry the following:
-a dagger OR a blackjack
-no short sword
-no armor
-a bow
-12 arrows (of whatever type you wish) *the ability to drop/change out arrows would be necessary
-2 flash bangs
-1 vial of holy water
-0 mines
-0 gas mines
-....and so on

The idea here is that you can force Garrett to carry a more realistic amount as a difficulty setting instead of using an encumbrance system.

Well that is it for now. What do you guys think?

[TeoRocker]

I agree with most of it, except getting rid of the light gem. I love that little gadget...

Also, I believe that Garrett will be able to carry a few more things on Realistic 'Carry Capacity'.

Still, I'm not very supportive of a weight system, but measures should still be taken to avoid stacking items.

There could be some fun and original multiplayer modes, but I'd rather the developers spent extra time one the single player missions.

[Flashart]

I'd like some kind of loot indentification from about 10ft, even if it's a "one-off glint", although
if it wasn't present at all I wouldn't lose sleep.
The "Swimming" argument is probably more to do with providing different explorable areas within a level, rather than the actual ability to swim. If it can't be done then use tunnels/pipework to expand the levels. It's kind of similar to the "climbing glove issue", I think the majority of levels weren't designed with any real exploitation of the gloves ability so they ended being seen as a rather lame attempt at pacification.
I'm quite happy to accept any limitations of the game engine as long as it maximizes it strengths in other areas.
If you're crouched in stealth mode and gently place an item, it should do it (near) silently. (Whether there's actually an animation for it doesn't concern me).
If the game mechanics are in the "spirit" of Thief, and not some generic FPS then I'm happy. The fact that Garrett can't sneeze, or snore etc is of little consequence.
I'm a fan of the idea of crate/ furniture moving to access areas etc, as long as the game will let me do it and the noise/ visibility aspect is covered.

[oceanclub]

I agree with a lot of your ideas here, especially about making sure that the PC version has proper graphics options. However:

DO

DON'T

Have 3rd person

I think allowing the player the option to switch between viewpoints is fine; people should be able to play as they want. I prefer first-person view, and tend to hate most third-person shooters (Max Payne excepted), but if allowing both modes make the most people happy, do it.

I'd definitely agree that first-person movement should be optimised well, and not just included as an "add-on".

Have loot glint

I think the problem is that with modern graphics and the kind of detailed environments it allows, you need something to highlight objects of important - else it just ends up in a case of playing hunt-the-pixel. The original Thief games were set at a time when rooms consists of a sequence of relatively simply polygons with flat textures; it was relatively easy to spot an object in amongst them.

Basically make Thief2 again with modern graphics, stick to the same design philosophies that was used for the original titles and if necessary build a completely seperate set of game mechanics for the console versions, in fact just dump the console versions all together, Thief is not a game the average console user has the skill to play :P

I'm first and foremost a PC gamer - have a Wii which I rarely use and a XBox 360 console that I mainly use as a media centre - but this is financially unrealistic in today's environment. I don't get the T:DS hate, but then I'm not a hard-core Thief fan (in that I've never created a mod for it or anything). The frequent load screens were a completely pain, but it dripped with atmosphere and the Shalebridge Cradle was terrifying.

P.

[simlan]

i pretty much agree with all, and love the feeling of outsmarting guards and getting past certain points

[Neb]

I think the problem is that with modern graphics and the kind of detailed environments it allows, you need something to highlight objects of important - else it just ends up in a case of playing hunt-the-pixel.

It's easy to find objects when they frob. All the developers have to do is create frobbing that isn't an abrasive blue colour, and also make the loot look like look and everything will be peachy (for the mentally average player). I promise you.

[oceanclub]

It's easy to find objects when they frob. All the developers have to do is create frobbing that isn't an abrasive blue colour, and also make the loot look like look and everything will be peachy (for the mentally average player). I promise you.

Oh agreed - I'm just saying highlighting loot isn't a bad thing - just do it well.

P.

[DoomyDoomyDoomDoom]

No worries, if the Devs don't want to introduce multiplayer, I can always get my fill with The Dark Mod once it is completed.

wait wait, are you saying the Dark Mod will have multiplayer? Because this would be the first I've heard of that!

Anyway, I hate the limited charge idea. I assume that this is only around because people don't want to wind up with a huge fortune and every item. If that is the problem then couldn't we just make everything more expensive/harder to get? I say, give people more reasons to spend money. I love being able to purchase clues and tidbits about my next mission. Information isn't always free you know. I prefer to have a simple cumulative limit on the weight you can carry, rather than saying you can only have this many of this or that item no matter what.

As far as encumbrance goes I love having to plan ahead, and any extra amount of replayablility can't be bad. Penalties or bonuses of some sort to movement, I'm not quite sure where I stand. It sounds awful, but I could see it working.

Seems most people go for the 'don't fix what isn't broken' idea to nearly every gameplay aspect of Thief. I tend to agree, but it is fun to think of things a little differently.

[Neb]

Oh agreed - I'm just saying highlighting loot isn't a bad thing - just do it well.

P.

I can't remember which developer it was, or what his screen name is, but on TTLG I remember him saying that for TDP they were thinking of including a subtle sparkle when you frob anything of value.

Interesting to know.

[oceanclub]

"Everything looked pretty and cartoon like. Not a hint of the bleak and depressing setting from TDP and TMA."

Pretty and cartoonlike? This is the game featuring dank medieval roughstone alleyways lit by guttering torchs, right? :D I don't remember it being exactly party-town.

I didn't see T:DP to be any more or less cartoonlike, if we ignore the graphical limitations forced upon the originals.

P.

[Myth]

1. What's with the sparkly thing in the moonlight near windows? Did the Fairy Godmother just pass by?

2. Arrow Trails?

3. The noise the noisearrow makes? Making them sound like kiddie firecrackers was a "brilliant" decision on the sound department.

4. Pagan talk. I don't know how I managed to get the Jacknall's Paw without turning off the speaker back when I played it. Their dialogue is fu*kin ridiculous. BlooferLady knows what I'm talkin bout.

"I hearsie. You better fearsie. I'm gonna screwsie." -Sie this, -Sie that. No wonder the Hammerites wanted to snuff them.

5. And to borrow a term from Jilly The Taffer, TDS was a watercoloured world. That sucked out any potential for the game to be believable and realistic. Watercolor? Kids? Get it?

There's more but you get what I mean. But then again, you won't seeing as how you didn't get it from Myth's post.

I'm pretty sure no parents would have blinked twice when their kids played TDS.

Everything looked pretty and cartoon like. Not a hint of the bleak and depressing setting from TDP and TMA.

Ion Storm made a heinous mistake by cheapening the realism of the Thief universe.

You're playing TMA for cryin out loud. Don't you see the difference?

Just imagine if LGS didn't disappear into the abyss and they released the sequel to TMA. Do you really think it would have looked anywhere close to TDS?

Get why we're pissed now?

Oh dear GOD thank you! Your words = my thoughts.

[ToMegaTherion]

"Everything looked pretty and cartoon like. Not a hint of the bleak and depressing setting from TDP and TMA."

Pretty and cartoonlike? This is the game featuring dank medieval roughstone alleyways lit by guttering torchs, right? :D I don't remember it being exactly party-town.

I didn't see T:DP to be any more or less cartoonlike, if we ignore the graphical limitations forced upon the originals.

P.

Deadly Shadows always struck me as pretty similar overall too.

[Jayy]

There should be no option to select a difficulty level at the beginning of the game.

I like difficulty level settings...because I'm lazy, otherwise I'd be a real burglar, rather than pretending in a game. Just as well for the world I'm lazy. See, games are beneficial to society.:rasp:

[TazmanianD]

As far as I can tell, there's no way to do it silently, which anybody with hands can do in real life.

Of course I know what engine limitations are, and for the object to be placed cleanly on a surface by clicking it while holding something was not impossible back then.
Putting an object down quietly was not impossible. If you were standing on a soft surface such as carpet, you could drop the item, even while standing and not make any noise.

But I think I've lost your point and am not sure what you're arguing in favor of. Are you insisting that T4 allow you to place an item you pick up down on some surface without making noise? Would that be just from where you picked it up or anywhere around you? Or are you saying that dropping an item should just not make any noise? Are you saying that there should be loot glint or some other indicator so you don't pick up junk in the first place?

You say that doing so was not impossible at the time and I'm sure that's probably the case, but as a software developer myself, I can tell you there's a difference between what's practical and what's possible. You have to pick your battles and implementing some features can prove to be more difficult that it's worth. If you fight all the battles, you'll never release your software. I doubt not allowing you to quietly put down an item was an oversight by the developers but was more a decision that their time was more important to spend on some other feature. There's a lot of tricky issues to deal with here. How do you decide what surface to put the object down on? How does the player know if he's close enough or in the right position to put the object down where he intends instead of dropping it on the floor. How does it work if you're crouching instead of standing? Does it work the same if you're putting the item down on a ledge that's 4 feet tall instead of a table that's 3 feet tall? If so, how do you get the game to not drop the item that 1 foot and make any noise?

I do find it annoying when I pick something up in the Thief games and have to put it down without alerting guards, but I find that I can almost always do that, even if it means finding a patch of carpet instead of gently putting it back where I got it from. If they find a way to do this right, I'm all for that, but there are a lot of things I would rather see them get right first.

[DarthEnder]

Winding up with too much money shouldn't be an issue because there's shouldn't BE persistent loot.

[WVI]

The problem there is that you are looking for a safe way out, panicking because you did something as simple as picking something up. Sure, having played the games enough now, you know how and where to place the things, but what about the people who don't know that crouching over a rug and dropping will eliminate their problem? How are they going to learn within the context of the game? Either by accident or wild experimentation with objects, which, I hate to say, breaks immersion because you're trying to figure out a gameplay element that makes you feel like you don't have hands.

You know what? Forget whether or not such a thing was possible back then. That argument probably won't go anywhere. Should it be possible by the time the next game comes out? Yes. You were asking what I was in favor of - This is how I see it. You pick up an object. If there's a horizontal surface within range, standing or not, the object is dropped quietly and cleanly, upright. You still have your throw button, so if you want to make noise, you're welcome to it. How about pre-place highlighting? It's a bit cheap-looking, but there could be an outline of where the object will be when you drop it. About the loot glint - I was for it before, but a bit more TMA has me torn. I liked the other guy's idea; Loot only glints if you're right next to it and you look at it for a second.

Get why we're pissed now?

Yes, and it's incredibly silly. It's exactly like all those people Photoshopping Diablo 3 pictures because oh no, there's a rainbow three feet of the giant eating off the barbarian's head! I'm convinced now if the new game does anything to stray from the norm, people will complain. I'm sorry, but I just can't take this seriously. I love immersing myself in the game world, too - I find Thief to be some of the most immersive games ever.

I just already find Deadly Shadows more immersive. Sorry. "Kiddie" fireworks noises in an M-rated game doesn't break anything for me. Nor do horrific zombies in a castle where I can actually see my hand in front of my face. And I wish you'd quit doing stuff like this -

But then again, you won't seeing as how you didn't get it from Myth's post.

You were all for "different strokes" a second ago, but you're acting like I'm unintelligent for disagreeing. Quit it - that's incredibly condescending.



I have a question for some people in here, too - Would you rather Garrett only be able to heal through potions, for difficulty's sake, or should he be able to eat food mid-level too?

[ToMegaTherion]

Just imagine what the chaos would have been like if the Invisibility Potion had been invented in Deadly Shadows rather than Metal Age, lol.

[WVI]

If that happened, Garrett could pretty much scream "HEY IT'S A THIEF IN HERE COME GET ME" constantly and still make out with all the loot.




GUYS I'M STEALING THE CROWN NOW ARE YOU NOT SEEING THIS OH WAIT I GUESS YOU'RE NOT

(I am for bringing it back, though, as long as it's rare enough.)

[ToMegaTherion]

if that happened, garrett could pretty much scream "hey it's a thi4f in here come get me" constantly and still make out with all the loot.

fyp.

Edit: I don't know what happened to the caps in that post :scratch:

[Platinumoxicity]

One small idea for movement: If there's a ledge that is too narrow to climb onto, you can still hang from it and shimmy left and right. This is included in many games, for example the Tomb Raider series.

[Nate]

Hi DoomyDoomyDoomDoom. Since the Dark Mod uses the Doom 3 engine, I am assuming there is going to eventually be multiplayer....that would SO suck if BOTH Thief 4 and The Dark Mod DIDN'T have multiplayer!

I like the idea of more uses for money too. Paying off people for clues, maps/blueprints would be awesome. So would paying guards to leave doors/gates open or to even not show up for work.

Glad you see the potential fun/challenge of an encumbrance system. However, the penalties wouldn't be applied to movement (that would piss off people) Instead, weight/encumbrance penalties would be applied to stealth (Garrett is easier to see and hear) and climbing speed.

[WVI]

It would strike me as odd, since it takes a LOT of strength to do that, and I don't know if Garrett has it in him. Hanging and pulling yourself up a ledge is another thing, though.

[Botlas]

I don't know why people have such an issue with the loot sparkle. After you do a couple missions on either Dark Project and Metal Age, you learn to recognize all the treasure anyway. The sparkle makes it easier to identify treasure, but it's not like it was difficult in the first place.

[Platinumoxicity]

It would strike me as odd, since it takes a LOT of strength to do that, and I don't know if Garrett has it in him. Hanging and pulling yourself up a ledge is another thing, though.

Climbing up a rope hanging from the ceiling takes even more strength than horizontal movement while hanging from a ledge. Are you saying that they should forget rope arrows too? :mad:
When moving horizontally hanging from the ledge, you only have to maintain your grip using your hands and feet. When climbing up a rope, you need to maintain a tight grip of the rope with your feet and hands while simultaneously increasing your potential energy, which requires work, which requires strength.

[Petike the Taffer]

DOs : Take all that was good in the previous three games, improve it as much as it needs to be improved and build upon it.

DONTs : Don't listen to all the unpleasable fanboys who only want a remake of any of the three installments. Ignore them.

Howg.

[WVI]

Climbing up a rope hanging from the ceiling takes even more strength than horizontal movement while hanging from a ledge. Are you saying that they should forget rope arrows too? :mad:

Huh, I forgot about that.

Fair point.

[Thieffanman]

I think the developers should once again have no swimming in the game. I think that is likely to make it better than a game with swimming in (I actually think this is true, it's not just inflammatory trolling!).

Strangely enough, this has merit. Why?

1) We don't know how much loot Garrett is weighed down with at any particular time. Even the strongest swimmers will have trouble when weighted down with weapons and armor. Maybe that's what the developers were onto when Garrett sank like a rock during TDS :).

2) Water becomes another thing to avoid, along with armed Guards, Hammerites, Pagans, etc. It makes the player more wary.

Idea: Maybe have Garrett able to swim when he's light (ie. carrying under a certain number of items and/or weight), and unable when he's laden with loot/weapons :).

--Thieffanman

[vasanx]

The E-***** measuring in here is amazing. Simply post the do's and dont's you would like to see instead of telling everyone which person offended you by saying what or simply just bashing someone elses idea. Those people are clearly doing what this thread is for, you people however are not.


Would you mind your own business?

You either join the argument or don't. People have a right to speak their mind and defend it. Things have been civil here so, what's your problem?

We are supposed to create a separate thread to sort out the rudeness? We are stopping each other from goin into a flame war and that's what you're suppose to take from all this.

You got something to post, post and move on or stay and argue bout something we say. Don't come out of nowhere and talk smack bout the posters.

[Myth]

There can only be so much realism before a game becomes too dull. A Rope Arrow can't realistically exist IRL - an 70-80 kg man hanging from an arrow that has only it's tip sunk in some wood? Actually firing said arrow from a shortbow, it's weight added with the weight of a 5 meter rope? The 5 meter rope not visible at all on the arrow's construction prior to connection :) etc. etc. So adding loot weight and considerations weather Garret can swim in full gear or not is too much imo.

[Master Taffer]

If I may borrow an idea from another game franchise...

In Hitman, the player has a feature at his disposal where he may look through a keyhole to see a limited view of the otherside of the door. I've always thought this was a mechanic that would lend itself better to Thief rather than Hitman, as most modern locks can't be gazed through like they are in Hitman.

It'de be fairly simple control wise to do. Frob (Highlight) the door to open and/or pick the lock. Frob the door handle to look through the keyhole to see a limited, "tunnel vision" view of the room on the other side.

[Espion]

Hi DoomyDoomyDoomDoom. Since the Dark Mod uses the Doom 3 engine, I am assuming there is going to eventually be multiplayer....that would SO suck if BOTH Thief 4 and The Dark Mod DIDN'T have multiplayer!

I only briefly played the Thievery mod in an early stage but it was pretty entertaining. That said, I'd rather they focus on the single player experience before putting any thought into multiplayer.

I like the idea of more uses for money too. Paying off people for clues, maps/blueprints would be awesome. So would paying guards to leave doors/gates open or to even not show up for work.

In Thief 1&2 you could buy tips/hints/info from the shop. I believe you could even buy the map for one level. It worked.

Glad you see the potential fun/challenge of an encumbrance system. However, the penalties wouldn't be applied to movement (that would piss off people) Instead, weight/encumbrance penalties would be applied to stealth (Garrett is easier to see and hear) and climbing speed.

If they were to introduce any kind of weight system I'd rather it just limit how much equipment Garrett can carry rather than change how stealthy he is in game. I think it's safe to assume that he'd know how much he can carry before it starts to compromise his ability to hide (his main skill set.)

...look through a keyhole to see a limited view of the otherside of the door.

Yes please. This would be useful.

In the first two games do you remember how if you started opening a door, but stood in the way, it would hit you and stop moving? You could then step around and look through the crack in the doorway. Fobbing the door again would then close it. I used to do this all the time. It half felt like a game glitch and half like I was meant to do it, but it was useful to be able to do and irritating when it was removed in TDS.

If I can't crack a door open to peek through to the other side then at least let me look through the keyhole please :)

[GmanPro]

Sometimes you have to suspend your disbelief if you want to enjoy the game. Just pretend its magic.

[Gabriel]

Well said, Myth. People just take it too far, either side.

I actually like elements from all three games, more from the first two, but DS had its (much fewer) good things. e.g. I liked the lockpicking minigame :rasp:, but I think the people who argue so much about DS being so great either haven't played or they haven't understood the mechanics and the spark of genius of the first two games.

Now, I'm not saying these people are dumb, it's just that it's pretty hard for new gamers who are used to pretty shiny graphics nowadays and the game doing most of the things for them, to get into that whole low-poly/low res textured, do-it-yourself atmosphere of Thief 1 and 2. What I'm trying to say is T1 and T2 have a much better defined personality IMO, through all the things people like WVI complain about: dropping objects makes sound (go figure), not having loot glint etc etc.

To me, T3 was just trying to catch up with the times and I do believe they were trying to make a good game, they just got lost on the way, trying to innovate more and less keep it in the true spirit of the Thief series. Actually, I'm a bit worried about T4 because of some things the devs said in the interviews (bringing RPG elements into Thief, innovating - oh no!). I just hope, whatever they do, that they realize that old is not necessarily bad and have a look at the old Thief games and take much of their inspiration from them (and NOT SPLINTER CELL and Assassin's Creed!! like I remember reading in an interview)

We're all Thief fans after all, I think we should tone down on the aggressiveness and listen to what each other has to say. I may not agree with some of you, but I try to keep it civil.

Get a good game out there, EM! That's all I want. :)

[Master Taffer]

Yes please. This would be useful.

In the first two games do you remember how if you started opening a door, but stood in the way, it would hit you and stop moving? You could then step around and look through the crack in the doorway. Fobbing the door again would then close it. I used to do this all the time. It half felt like a game glitch and half like I was meant to do it, but it was useful to be able to do and irritating when it was removed in TDS.

If I can't crack a door open to peek through to the other side then at least let me look through the keyhole please :)

Yeah, I recall it was also possible to keep the door open with simple junk. There was a quick way to beat Return to the Haunted Cathedral by keeping the front doors open with a well placed skull. Just grab the Eye and get the hell out of dodge.

[esme]

a quick point on the picking up and dropping of non loot items

yes they were easy to drop silently, just find a soft surface and hit 'R' (sorry vasanx)

but they were useful as distractions too, pick up a bottle, throw it past a guard onto a hard surface and the guard will generally go see what the noise was, it might take a couple of items but it worked most times

so non loot items have a use too, I don't know if it was an intentional feature or not but it was there and I used it

however it has reminded me of one thing I didn't like about The Dark Project and The Metal Age, (pauses for gasps of shock, cries of "heresy" and "burn the witch" to die down)

there are occasions in these games where Garrett is sneaking around a room with sleeping or even awake AI that have their back to him, he gently picks open a footlocker, then as soon as it opens he blindly grabs every taffing thing out of the box without looking at it and suddenly finds he has 200lbs of scrap iron in his hands that he has to try and get rid of silently without alerting all the AI in the room

c'mon he's a master thief why on earth would he pick up a taffin great hammer out of a box he's just opened for example when he knows he's only going to have to dump it, it's not even as if he can use it as a weapon, it just sits in his hands without going into the inventory so he can't pick anything else up, he can't select the blackjack and deal with the AI busting the ghost but keeping the game going he can't do anything except go find somewhere to either drop it or use it as a distraction

why couldn't he look in the box first and decide if it was worth picking the contents up

[ToMegaTherion]

I can't decide if that was better or worse than the Deadly Shadows chests with their 700ft sides that you can't see into.

[esme]

I think part of the problem with chests was that the entire chest was frobbable making the contents difficult to select individually, maybe it should only be the lid thats frobabble

[Abelo]

I'm a fan of the whole series. But there's far too much "It's not a Thief game with/without _______" on this forum, and it's just a mental shield against new ideas.
I can't but agree there. A lot of people here is in this unconstructive "don't touch anything" attitude, declaring everything they like about the Thief saga is a core value.

Come on. We all love Garrett and his voice, we all love rope arrows and mechanical eyes and lots of things, but those AREN'T sine-qua-non conditions for the game to be a Thief game. Please, try to be more constructive and open minded. Thief IS very capable of improving beyond graphics and AI, with vibrant new ideas as long as they are well executed. TDS did NOT fail because of climbing gloves, but for major things like load times interrupting the atmosphere; the kind of wrong design decisions that are as bad in a Thief game as in any other. TDS was a very improvable GAME before a very improvable THIEF game. Just, tainting the Thief franchise was a plus.

For those people; you have pretty much two choices: adapt or keep whining. DX3 is pretty much confirmed that WON'T be the same as DX1 with better graphics, and you can bet T4 won't be T2 with better graphics either. Times have changed, market has changed, people has changed, development risks have changed... live with it; it's a fact.

So, you can be constructive, trying to search for great new ideas improving the core concept behind a Thief game (pretty much as if there had never existed a Thief game before and you were trying to help EM make the best out of this promising burglar-simulator formula), or you can keep ranting like "EM ignores the fan base" until release day, when you'll say "whaaat? I was expecting a T2 with nextgen graphics WTF!!!11!!!?"

I'm warning you before they start showing material and info and the whining storm begins. Two ways to approach the development as fans: constructive or frustrating. Choose yours.

[Nate]

Keyhole viewing = awesome idea!

Also, I had entirely forgotten you could buy maps and hints from your fence/store during Thief 1 & 2. That was something they need to do again.

[Maethius]

/probably been brought up, but there's a lot of pages to look through!

What about actually interacting with people other than robbing them? While not as in depth as an RPG, you could talk to people in a tavern or find small off-quests to improve gear or loot. Sometimes this was fulfilled by overhearing a conversation between two NPCs and gaining a new objective, but by using an "ask the NPC" method it could forward the story in a way that shows Garrett has contacts in shady places. As the High Keeper, he may even have contacts in much more public places, too.

[WVI]

So basically what I've been meaning to say, except a hell of a lot more articulate. >.>

[Frayga]

Quick Question to ask for all the people who haven't played the first two Thief games, Where can you find them? The games aren't exactly easy to find, and I'm just wondering where i can go to experience the "Absolute Amazing Awesomeness" that is Thief 1 and Thief 2.

[BoldEnglishman]

I liked how they brought back the Lost City in Thief II. You were able to explore most of the areas from your first visit to the Lost City once again after the Mechanists had settled there, a strange mix of familiarity and new territory.

I think it would be very interesting if the new game would re-visit some old locales from Thief 1 and Thief 2, including some of the old architecture 're-imagined' with a new engine. Just an idea.

[Abelo]

Until T1 and T2 they get some GoG treatment, safest bet is Amazon. Although you're going to have a hard time making them work in XP (don't know about Vista). Not even Thief Collection prepared them for current operative systems. There are unofficial XP-friendly patches, and old compatible video drivers, but even thus they're not guaranteed to work. So good luck.

[Thieffanman]

Do: Start the game with an innocuous beginning. TDS started Garrett with something as simple as lifting a purse with a medallion in it, which then led to stealing a valuable opal . . . and the game eventually wound up in a life-or-death race against The Hag. Nothing makes a game more interesting than the detective-story-like unfolding of events that made TDS worth playing.

--Thieffanman

[Myth]

Until T1 and T2 they get some GoG treatment, safest bet is Amazon. Although you're going to have a hard time making them work in XP (don't know about Vista). Not even Thief Collection prepared them for current operative systems. There are unofficial XP-friendly patches, and old compatible video drivers, but even thus they're not guaranteed to work. So good luck. what? both games run fine under XP. If you encounter problems, come to the TTLG forums and read the sticky topics.

[maddermadcat]

Just imagine what the chaos would have been like if the Invisibility Potion had been invented in Deadly Shadows rather than Metal Age, lol.

Few people liked the invisibility potion, actually. They were quite rare, so I personally had no problem with them.

people has changed

Raged a bit, good work.

[Palmberg]

Until T1 and T2 they get some GoG treatment, safest bet is Amazon. Although you're going to have a hard time making them work in XP (don't know about Vista). Not even Thief Collection prepared them for current operative systems. There are unofficial XP-friendly patches, and old compatible video drivers, but even thus they're not guaranteed to work. So good luck.


I've tried T1, TG and T2 on both Vista and XP, works great for me.

[Neb]

Yeah, I've got the Sold Out Software versions of both, and they run just fine on all of the XP systems I've tried them out on.

[Platinumoxicity]

An idea for graphics: If the developers are once again unable to make perfectly dark areas, or if they choose not to make them, they should make a sort of "darkness blur". A shader that blurs the scenery when the light factor gets low enough. You know, when you are trying to see in your room in the middle of the night in a very faint light, all you see is blur, but in sufficient light conditions, you can see all the details. I haven't seen that feature in any game yet. Any other features that relate to the behavior of the human eye are also welcome.

Like:
HDR: brightness/darkness eye adaptation seen in most games today.
Glare: When looking at a dark wall with bright windows, you can't see anything that is in the dark areas.
Rod Cell darkness exploitation: In dark areas, the cone cells in the human eye are unable to see anything when when trying to look straight at it. You must look slightly off target, utilizing the rod cells instead, but in this case the thing you're looking at is still a bit blurry. This feature is in "Condemned: Criminal origins" in some extent.

[Abelo]

what? both games run fine under XP. If you encounter problems, come to the TTLG forums and read the sticky topics.
Well, weeks ago I entered TTLG, readed the topics, found my problem, followed every instruction (texture management patch, downgrade video drivers) and still both Thief 1 & 2 crash after loading a level. In two diferent XP computers. I've been trying to replay them since years ago with zero luck, and I'm not the only one.

An idea for graphics: If the developers are once again unable to make perfectly dark areas, or if they choose not to make them, they should make a sort of "darkness blur". A shader that blurs the scenery when the light factor gets low enough. You know, when you are trying to see in your room in the middle of the night in a very faint light, all you see is blur, but in sufficient light conditions, you can see all the details. I haven't seen that feature in any game yet. Any other features that relate to the behavior of the human eye are also welcome.
Very nice idea. They'd have to nail the effect, since a generic blur might seem slightly weird, and too much blur in the game (Thief is dark too often) could be a double-sided blade, but yes, something in the likes of human eye perception would be nice.

[Platinumoxicity]

Very nice idea. They'd have to nail the effect, since a generic blur might seem slightly weird, and too much blur in the game (Thief is dark too often) could be a double-sided blade, but yes, something in the likes of human eye perception would be nice.

I meant the very dark areas. In all Thief games you could cheat the game by increasing the screen brightness, because you could perfectly see all the detail in the pitch black corners. If there was blur in these dark areas, no perfect nightvision would be possible.

[BlooferLady]

Quick Question to ask for all the people who haven't played the first two Thief games, Where can you find them? The games aren't exactly easy to find, and I'm just wondering where i can go to experience the "Absolute Amazing Awesomeness" that is Thief 1 and Thief 2.

Look up Thief Bundle on Amazon. It sells for about 30 USD. That's where I got my copies from. It's DP instead of Gold, but then again, Gold is pretty pricey compared to the others. You will have to do a bit of tweaking. I have xp, and I have to download and reinstall the video codecs, but they both work well for me.

[vasanx]

Get why we're pissed now?


Yes, and it's incredibly silly...


Dude, that's not cool. If you can't empathize, don't shrug it off like that. :mad:


"Kiddie" fireworks noises in an M-rated game doesn't break anything for me. Nor do horrific zombies in a castle where I can actually see my hand in front of my face. And I wish you'd quit doing stuff like this -

I didn't get the zombie part. How were you trying to embarass me here again?

What stuff? Really, I like to know.


Lollipop? Really?

It is a legitimate concern because this may be news to you but TDS is very kiddish looking. It comes nowhere close to the mature feel of TDP and TMA.

1. What's with the sparkly thing in the moonlight near windows? Did the Fairy Godmother just pass by?

2. Arrow Trails?

3. The noise the noisearrow makes? Making them sound like kiddie firecrackers was a "brilliant" decision on the sound department.

4. Pagan talk. I don't know how I managed to get the Jacknall's Paw without turning off the speaker back when I played it. Their dialogue is fu*kin ridiculous. BlooferLady knows what I'm talkin bout.

"I hearsie. You better fearsie. I'm gonna screwsie." -Sie this, -Sie that. No wonder the Hammerites wanted to snuff them.

5. And to borrow a term from Jilly The Taffer, TDS was a watercoloured world. That sucked out any potential for the game to be believable and realistic. Watercolor? Kids? Get it?

There's more but you get what I mean. But then again, you won't, seeing as how you didn't get it from Myth's post.



You were all for "different strokes" a second ago, but you're acting like I'm unintelligent for disagreeing. Quit it - that's incredibly condescending.


That stroke was only logical.

The next stroke was meant to drive the point that TDS was no where near TDP and TMA when it comes to a mature presentation. Myth's post talked bout not tailoring the game towards the younger crowd because we all know that's where the money is but you didn't find the kiddish points valid for some reason.

I wasn't aiming for 'unintelligent' at all. It's more 'annoying refusal to bow before our will' than anything else.

[Mikkowl]

DO
Make sure FoV is set to a more common PC FoV like 90 degrees for 4:3 and 103 degrees for 16:10
Make sure widescreen is horz+ and not vert- (www.widescreengamingforum.com if you need to learn how to do it correctly)
Just to note: There is no 'correct' fov for a compromised setup. 90-103 degree fov is on most screens a fish eye experience that distorts distances and scales, but gives a wide amount of peripheral vision. The fish-eye distortion has an adverse affect on realism and immersion, but a very low fov would give tunnel vision.

Seeing as people have different sized screens that they sit at different distances from, and have different tastes as how to compromise between proper scale & distance, and peripheral vision, the only reasonable solution is to make the fov customizable.

[Mikkowl]

I meant the very dark areas. In all Thief games you could cheat the game by increasing the screen brightness, because you could perfectly see all the detail in the pitch black corners. If there was blur in these dark areas, no perfect nightvision would be possible.
There's no point in trying to stop people from cheating themselves of a gaming experience. Just let them.

Regarding the 'dark blur', that's unecessary - if you calibrate your screen properly (and you're not a cheater, are you?) the dark parts will blur themselves by your very real eyes.

[BlooferLady]

I wasn't aiming for 'unintelligent' at all. It's more 'annoying refusal to bow before our will' than anything else.
Seriously, you crack me up. :)

I would like to put forward a request for our lovely development team concerning something near and dear to my heart.

DO: For the love of all that is holy make head-bobbing optional!

Sorry. I was just playing Trail of Blood today, and had to stop to go lay on the floor and not be sick. I don't need head bobbing to feel like I'm immersed in a world. FPS games without head bobbing don't bother me. Really.

[Platinumoxicity]

There's no point in trying to stop people from cheating themselves of a gaming experience. Just let them.

Regarding the 'dark blur', that's unecessary - if you calibrate your screen properly (and you're not a cheater, are you?) the dark parts will blur themselves by your very real eyes.

Well, I've tried, failed and tried again, but there is no screen setup scheme that simultaneously makes the shadows very dark and the bright areas reasonably visible on my display.

I don't know, the "dark blur" was just something that I've never seen in a game before and it would be possible to make.

DO: For the love of all that is holy make head-bobbing optional!

Yes, but don't weld the camera onto the model that projects Garrett's shadow. Remember what happened when you turned off the headbobbing in T3? It looked hilarious when Garrett was running and his head on the shadow was on the same vertical level at all times. :D

[esme]

Quick Question to ask for all the people who haven't played the first two Thief games, Where can you find them? The games aren't exactly easy to find, and I'm just wondering where i can go to experience the "Absolute Amazing Awesomeness" that is Thief 1 and Thief 2.

there's a bunch on amazon http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Dvideogames&field-keywords=thief

and you can get Thief : The Dark Project gold as a download from Eidos at http://www.trygames.com/search_results/aff=eidos_uk/curr_selected=GBP/lang=EN/page=1

Eidos also have a demo of Thief : The Metal Age at http://www.eidosinteractive.co.uk/games/embed.html?gmid=56 I'm surprised the full game isn't available in the download store, René if you read this maybe you couild pass this on as a suggestion ?

---EDIT ---

Just tried the demo download link and it is broken, you might find a copy on shareware sites but watch out for virus and warez infected versions if you go for an unofficial site

[vasanx]

"Everything looked pretty and cartoon like. Not a hint of the bleak and depressing setting from TDP and TMA."

Pretty and cartoonlike? This is the game featuring dank medieval roughstone alleyways lit by guttering torchs, right? :D I don't remember it being exactly party-town.

I didn't see T:DP to be any more or less cartoonlike, if we ignore the graphical limitations forced upon the originals.

P.

Having dank alleys and guttering torch is fine and dandy. But how you present it is what I'm talking bout.

Maybe a Before and After shot will help you guys see what me and the others mean by a pretty and cartoon like presentation that is prevalent in TDS.

Exhibit A

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/397/guardg.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guardg.jpg)

TDP and TMA models have always had that realistic look despite their low polygon count. Instead of improving on the realistic design they went Looney Tunes.

Exhibit B

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/1183/guard2.jpg (http://img194.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guard2.jpg)

Who would you run away from first? I'd say the guard on the left than the extra from Pirates OTC.

Exhibit C

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9947/ladyf.jpg (http://img34.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ladyf.jpg)

Just look at a 1998 model of a chick. Just look at her face. Now compare that to the chick from TDS who looks like she just stepped out of The Golden Book of Fairy Tales.

Exhibit D

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5232/cook.jpg (http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cook.jpg)

Believable cook vs. Teletubbie cook.


Exhibit E

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1183/guard2.jpg (http://img36.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guard2.jpg)

This guy scared the bejesus out of me when I first played TDP. He's is one mean lookin mofo. The TDS guard was honestly distracting because he got me thinking about presents, cookies, milk, chimney and Rudolph.

Exhibit F

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/6789/rooms.jpg (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rooms.jpg)

This might not be so apparent at first glance. The TDS room has that purple tint that just totally killed the mood for me. It's so...fake. It's one of those night scenes you'd see in animated movies so that the kids won't pee themselves if mommy switches off their bedroom lights.

Just go and watch Monster House and you'll see what I mean. Plus, the fairy dust by every window in TDS really doesn't help its case at all.


There you have it. Took forever to put this post together.

You gotta agree now that TDS was no where near TDP, TMA when it comes to making you feel like you're playing a serious game.

[Abelo]

Vasanx, the only thing I'd agree is faces, but it's only because the old ones have a photo sticked over a couple of polys, and the ones in TDS were modeled, perhaps without much visual reference. But you can bet it wasn't a conscious design decission, just a misstep. The rest may be respectable opinion, but YOUR opinion anyway, and all that demagogy with constant children references around TDS was just annoying.

[vasanx]

Vasanx, the only thing I'd agree is faces, but it's only because the old ones have a photo sticked over a couple of polys, and the ones in TDS were modeled, perhaps without much visual reference. But you can bet it wasn't a conscious design decission, just a misstep. The rest may be respectable opinion, but YOUR opinion anyway, and all that demagogy with constant children references around TDS was just annoying.

Photos pasted on to a model. That thought didn't cross my mind at all. Good call. I'm actually gonna bet you that it was a conscious design. IS really believed in their model. I mean the models don't look bad if it was meant as educational game for preschoolers ...

Oh! Crap! I forgot. You find my kiddie reference annoyin. Sorry you feel that way but it was meant to be entertaining. No?

Ah, well. I'll take annoyin over insultin when it comes to MY opinions anyday.

[Myth]

Very good post vasanx - especially the last picture. Purple and dark blue =/= dark.

[ToMegaTherion]

But it is pretty...

Anyway, that's a funny comment coming from someone with a dark blue avatar. One that incidentally looks dark and atmospheric :)

[Myth]

If you don't know what my avatar is don't bother talking about it. Also, i was referring to the game engine not photoshopped images. Blue shadows are not realistic, blue fog isn't realistic, and this was a debate of dark engine vs unreal engine, moreso a TDP/MA vs TDS.

[BlooferLady]

I believe Myth was pointing out that the actual color scheme of the game was what kept it from looking dark and dank. An avatar is a much different story than an entire game.

Probably what kills the mood for some people is the cool color combination. Blues and purples are soothing. Didn't particularly bother me, but when you put them side by side, I can see that in the older games, the warmer tones made things look more shadowed and dusty/dank. That's why in a lot of survival horror games and movies, the main color element is a dusty yellow and orange/red. (I'm thinking 28 days later, Silent Hill, Emily Rose, ect. Don't judge my horror genre choices, I'm not a big horror fan.)

edit: I thought of a really good horror movie example: The Descent. They shot that entire movie with just the girls' headlamps and flares. All lights that you would use for cave-diving. And it winds up being mostly sepia tones with red and some greens.

I think the old and less advanced graphics actually help give you that tattered, dirty City look. The new city was a bit too well polished. Like I said, they didn't bother me too much, but I can see where people are coming from.

And vasanx, I think that the pixie dust you despise so much is really just plain old dust. Everyone must just have really lazy servants. :)

[Myth]

http://www.thief-thecircle.com/media/paintings/showimage.asp?source=./t1-cathedral2.jpg Source of my avatar, although i expected most of you to recognize it. BlooferLady you are right. And i'm not saying blue has no place as a colour in the Thief games - far from it. But blue darkness and purple fog don't make sense. Blue/purple foggy loading areas kill immersion with an axe and bury it's body in the corn field.

[ToMegaTherion]

I see blueness used all the time in darkness for atmospheric effect in movies. It's absurd to suggest that its use can be entirely equated with childishness.

[Platinumoxicity]

A human eye has 90 million rod cells that are used for seeing details in dark areas. These cells cannot see colors, only shades of gray. There are only 4,5 million cone cells in the eye which are used for seeing colors. In dark environments, not enough light makes it's way to the cone cells to produce a conception of the colors, but the 90 million rod cells are still able to register the faint differences in luminosity. Shadows are not blue. They are colorless

[webe123]

If you are going to make another thief game PLEASE whatever you do, make SURE you leave the functionality of the former PC thief games intact!

What I mean by this, was that when Thief Deadly Shadows was released as a cross platform game. A lot of PC gamers were very put off by the fact that they took out... ROPE ARROWS and had NO SWIMMING (Which I hated)

But the absolute WORST thing they did to that game, was when they put those idiotic LOADING SCREENS on the PC version!

I cannot tell you how many people including myself over at TTLG were ticked because the game was changed so much it did not resemble Thief 1 and 2! The gameplay was fantastic other than what I mentioned ( I loved "the cradle" mission!)

But please please...THIS TIME do NOT leave out those three things I mentioned and be sure to include all the other things thief 1 and 2 had.

Even today I do not replay thief 3 (even though they make fan missions for it) because of the things Thief 3 left out!

So please make this game as enjoyable as the first two thief games were if you are going to do another game.

Look at it this way, this is a chance to FIX what the other game messed up!

[kin]

even today i do not replay thief 3 (even though they make fan missions for it) because of the things thief 3 left out!
+1.

[Stath MIA]

Not sure I agree on the gameplay being fantastic (did love the Cradle though), other than that I'm in full agreement, restore the flexibility and take the time to give the PC market some quality perks.

[VIKTORIA]

Some great posts in this thread, keep them coming. :thumb:

[kin]

Keyhole viewing = awesome idea!

I always liked the forward leaning on a door to listen clearly what's on the other side. Not a new thing for sure but I don't remember it in TDS.
It had the same use as the keyhole idea but I believe it is creepier listening for the first time haunt sounds behind a door than watching them trough the keyhole and knowing what to expect.

[Jamesy]

This one is for Multi-platforming, and if it was suggested before, sorry. I'm in the middle of playing Thief Gold and don't really wanna search through the entire forum. Never beat it yet and am playing through on expert. :D Anyways.

Whenever a PC game is released on home consoles, people always complain about the control setup. How using a controller isn't as responsive as a keyboard/mouse combo. I was thinking about it while in Bonehoard a minute ago(yes, I multitask) and remembered that the 360 has USB ports on it.

Not sure if the PS3 has any, but I know a mouse and keyboard are compatible with the 360 as a few online games, like the Final Fantasy MMO and Phantasy Star Universe pretty much need them. Why not keep the keyboard/mouse combo an option for home console ports? If setting up a working control scheme for controllers is a really big problem, EM could maybe give the mouse/board combo as pre-order swag.

At the very least they could set some sort of rebate deal, like when you buy the game you get a coupon for 5-10 bucks off the newest Logitech ones. Not saying it has to be Logitech, anybody would do. A mouse and keyboard are very cheap these days, decent ones can be picked up for under twenty bucks for both.

Is this a good idea? I would enjoy it anyways, I hate always upgrading my computer for new games and playing on consoles is a simpler approach but I like the PC control scheme a lot more.

EDIT: I love the keyhole idea. Playing through TDS I had mentioned this to my brother. We both love the Hitman games and the keyhole view helps a lot.

[rubensoda]

Hi everybody from Italy! Just two simple things

1. Please keep the magic of thief2. You know what I'm talkin' about, I mean not a replication
of course but just keep the same freshness and feeling

2. Please in first person !!

Thanx in advance.. I can't wait

[Nate]

Having XBox 360 able to use a mouse and keyboard for Thi4f is a GREAT idea!

[Kyle2k]

I prefer no sword at all. No thief (especially master thief) would use weapon heavier than a dagger.

I don't like the dagger at all. It's an assassin's weapon. Garret is not a violent character. It's one of the HUGE imbecile TDS mistakes.

A sword, even the big one from the first game, is more like a self-defense weapon... just in case.

[Kyle2k]

DO:

- ATMOSPHERE!!!
- weird, creepy SOUNDS and soundtrack!
- UNDERWATER SECTIONS!!!
- hammerite cursed zombies
- HUGE levels
- rope arrow!
- SentryBots
- a gamelevel called "RETURN TO SOULFORGE" (the ruins of it, of course, with the Ghost of Karras, some remaining Sentrybots and mechanist zombies!!! WOW!!

DON'T:

- f**ing, annoying LOADING ZONES!!!
- 3rd person view
- climbing gloves
- an imbecile game plot (TDS)
- a violent Garret

[vasanx]

And vasanx, I think that the pixie dust you despise so much is really just plain old dust. Everyone must just have really lazy servants. :)

Pixie dust! That's the term I was lookin for. :D

Plain old dust? Damn. I've never thought of it that way.

I'm probably gonna sound stupid now but can moonlight reveal the dust in the air? I've never seen that happening because i don't live in a dusty castle myself but I've always equated dust effect such as that with sunlight.

Okay I don't want to sound really stupid with the previous argument so, bear with me as I attempt a salvage mission.

Moonlight works too because it's.....light. But it's night time so, the low temperature makes the air molecules less kinetic-y and so any dust in the air wouldn't hover as much and would have descended onto the floor.

You know what? I really don't know what I'm talkin bout BlooferLady. I'm a monkey. :D

[massimilianogoi]

The worst error that Eidos Montreal could do is changing the protagonist. GARRETT MUST BE THE PROTAGONIST!! Otherwise it will be a total failure, and in the future the people will talk as another cheap sequel, worster than TDS :hmm:

Democracy demonstrates everything, see the results of my poll in the ttlg forum:

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126258

And this should be, other than a group of fan that are used to the same gameplay, a sample of the people and their taste.

So, take a look at the numbers, and be aware!

[huzi73]

Agreed

Though if he's not voiced by Stephen Russel,that would be pointless

[Garrett2727]

I also think it should continue with Garrett, but why couldn't it be the way that Garrett/Russell would be the main character in the missions and Eidos could make a datadisk to the game after the release with new missions where that little girl would have the main role, or a Thief 4 Gold might have come with the main Thief 4 (with Garrett) + like 8-9 missions with a new storyline with the girl?

[Palmberg]

I also think it should continue with Garrett, but why couldn't it be the way that Garrett/Russell would be the main character in the missions and Eidos could make a datadisk to the game after the release with new missions where that little girl would have the main role, or a Thief 4 Gold might have come with the main Thief 4 (with Garrett) + like 8-9 missions with a new storyline with the girl?


But why? Is it really necessary if they have already decided to go with Garrett in the game? If they go with Garrett they have probably decided to scrap that "little girl" BS, that would be the wise thing to do anyway.

Anyway completely agree with the OP, and as huzi73 said, Stephen Russell must be the voice actor!

[Yotun]

I completely disagree, and you've failed to mention the other poll in ttlg showing ho most people will purchase the game even if Garrett is not the protagonist. In any case, I can't be bothered to eplain why I feel they should move away from Garrett and introduce another character, we've already had this discussion in the forums so many times.

And quite frankly, there's FAR worse things they could do than replace Garrett. A crap game with Garrett as the protagonist is FAR worse than an amazing game with the same spirit and gameplay dynamics as the original, but a different protagonist.

[Palmberg]

I completely disagree, and you've failed to mention the other poll in ttlg showing ho most people will purchase the game even if Garrett is not the protagonist.


But that really is a completely different question isn't it? I would prefer that they keep Garrett, but if in the end they dont and go with someone else I will probably end up buying it just to see how true they managed to stay to the series and how much I will hate the new main character :lol:

[Jilly The Taffer]

A crap game with Garrett as the protagonist is FAR worse than an amazing game with the same spirit and gameplay dynamics as the original, but a different protagonist.

Oh really?

Seriously, I'm not seeing it.

Garrett IS Thief.
________________________________

I understand that a crap game with Garrett, would show him in a bad light. But I don't think that would bother most of us. We know who Garrett is, how awesome he is. We've been through the Dark Project, The Metal Age and Deadly Shadows MANY times.

Garrett doesn't need to prove himself to us anymore.
________________________________

And an amazing game with the same spirit of Thief, but with a different protagonist?

Are you crazy? Garrett provides that spirit! :mad2:

[Platinumoxicity]

Thief is 4 things:

Garrett
The City
Mystery
Rope arrows

All of these combined is a good Thief game, such as a Thief 1, Thief 2 or "Thief 3"
Take out any of these, and you don't have a Thief 1 or Thief 2 or Thief 3 anymore. All that's left is just a bunch of deadly shadows.


And deadly water.

[Jilly The Taffer]

Thief is 4 things:

Garrett
The City
Mystery
Rope arrows

All of these combined is a good Thief game, such as a Thief 1, Thief 2 or "Thief 3"
Take out any of these, and you don't have a Thief 1 or Thief 2 or Thief 3 anymore. All that's left is just a bunch of deadly shadows.

And deadly water.

Indeed. Add Swimming to that True Thief list of yours. :thumb:

[esme]

some thoughts on loading zones

loading zones were put in because the limitations of consoles forced the developers to make small missions, PC's generally had way more resources back then, consoles have come on a long way and bigger maps are possible but PC's still tend to have more resources so there are going to be small missions and loading zones unless an alternative can be found

there's no way this release will be PC only so is there an alternative to a loading zone ?

how about a rolling map that loads areas you are going to and saves areas you've been to so it is possible for Garrett to have a map that is city sized even on a relatively limited console system

say the Garrett avatar is in the middle cube of a 3x3x3 or even a 5x5x5 cube all loaded in memory, as long as he stays and does his Thiefy stuff in the middle cube nothing happens but if he moves to an adjoining cube then the cubes furthest away would start being unloaded and those he's heading towards will get loaded, it should even be possible to work out the most likely paths and load those first, the cubes should be large enough so that even at a dead run across an infinite flat plain garrett cannot beat the load/unload process on a PC

teleportation could be handled by scanning the immediate cube for the nearest teleport out point to the avatar and loading them in a separate cube if it's not already loaded so if it's used this becomes the active cube and the load/unload process starts filling in the surrounding cubes, if memory permits load the nearest N teleport out destinations at the same time

if the load/unload process is forked properly then most modern multiprocessor PC's wouldn't even notice the overhead as one processor would handle the load/unload and the rest would handle the game on a single processor system this forking would be handled by the normal multitasking system

now if Garrett by some miracle does manage to hit the edge of the currently loaded map, have a default load zone effect, but normally the next cube will load over it before you get there or get it in sight

basically I'm suggesting a virtual memory management model for Thief 4 maps as an alternative to loading zones

[Yotun]

Oh really?

Seriously, I'm not seeing it.

Garrett IS Thief.
________________________________

I understand that a crap game with Garrett, would show him in a bad light. But I don't think that would bother most of us. We know who Garrett is, how awesome he is. We've been through the Dark Project, The Metal Age and Deadly Shadows MANY times.

Garrett doesn't need to prove himself to us anymore.
________________________________

And an amazing game with the same spirit of Thief, but with a different protagonist?

Are you crazy? Garrett provides that spirit! :mad2:


WTF? A crap game with Garrett would show him in a bad light? But he's already proven himself to us? The problem with a crap game with Garrett isn't that it 'shows' Garrett in a bad light, IT'S THAT IT'S A CRAP GAME THAT'S NO FUN!!! The point of Having Thief games isn't to create some sort of positive publicity campaign for a fictional character, it's to create an enjoyable gaming experience for us the players! You're talking as if the main concern of the developers is to 'please' and 'promote' Garrett - rather than the players!

[Jilly The Taffer]

WTF? A crap game with Garrett would show him in a bad light? But he's already proven himself to us? The problem with a crap game with Garrett isn't that it 'shows' Garrett in a bad light, IT'S THAT IT'S A CRAP GAME THAT'S NO FUN!!! The point of Having Thief games isn't to create some sort of positive publicity campaign for a fictional character, it's to create an enjoyable gaming experience for us the players! You're talking as if the main concern of the developers is to 'please' and 'promote' Garrett - rather than the players!

All of that is true yes.

Of course I know that a crap game is 'A CRAP GAME THAT'S NO FUN!!!' So please don't insult my intelligence.
We are on the subject of Garrett, not the game, so I was merely putting forward my view on the matter.

I would still buy Thief 4 if there is no Garrett, to see for myself if it is still Thief-like.

But, for myself, and surely others, how can it be an enjoyable gaming experience if the creators of Thief 4 have plucked out the very essence and bones of the spirit that make Thief so special?

[massimilianogoi]

Agreed

Though if he's not voiced by Stephen Russel,that would be pointless

This is not fundamental: we have alot of Fan Mission that uses other voices (especially the one of SlyFoxx) that worked well. Maybe should be SlyFoxx the new voices.

But why? Is it really necessary if they have already decided to go with Garrett in the game? If they go with Garrett they have probably decided to scrap that "little girl" BS, that would be the wise thing to do anyway.

Anyway completely agree with the OP, and as huzi73 said, Stephen Russell must be the voice actor!

They have ALREADY DECIDED that it will be Garrett?? Are you sure?? HURRAH!!! :D

[Jamesy]

Thief is not a game the average console user has the skill to play :P

Um. I'm a console player and have been playing Thief since I first discovered it. Just because somebody prefers to play using a console over a PC doesn't mean they lack the skill to play PC games.

Thats just ignorant. I choose to use consoles because they're cost effective. If you bought a system you could be sure that there would be plenty to play on it, with no having to upgrade the system constantly.

With PC games, if something is released one year and you upgrade to be able to play it, the next year chances are the same will happen. Now I know its not set in stone or anything, but I view the PC somewhat as a money pit. The consoles can be viewed the same I suppose, but to a lesser degree.

[/RANT]

[Sierra Oscar]

I just think one of the worst things to happen would be the changing of the protagonist.

Please don't!

Also, lets bring back the great things from Thief 1 + 2.

And please please please let Thief 4 be atmospheric. Very atmospheric!

[Jilly The Taffer]

I just think one of the worst things to happen would be the changing of the protagonist.

Please don't!

Also, lets bring back the great things from Thief 1 + 2.

And please please please let Thief 4 be atmospheric. Very atmospheric!

Exactly my point :thumb:

[massimilianogoi]

Yeah!! :D

[GmanPro]

Um. I'm a console player and have been playing Thief since I first discovered it. Just because somebody prefers to play using a console over a PC doesn't mean they lack the skill to play PC games.

Thats just ignorant. I choose to use consoles because they're cost effective. If you bought a system you could be sure that there would be plenty to play on it, with no having to upgrade the system constantly.

With PC games, if something is released one year and you upgrade to be able to play it, the next year chances are the same will happen. Now I know its not set in stone or anything, but I view the PC somewhat as a money pit. The consoles can be viewed the same I suppose, but to a lesser degree.

[/RANT]

Consoles are not more cost effective than PC's. I haven't upgraded my PC in over two years and I can still play most games on max settings.

If you think about it, you are actually getting more for less if you go with a PC. It is very possible to build a PC more powerful than the PS3 for about the same cost. The only real additional cost would be the OS, but then, you're getting quite a lot for that extra price. Not to mention that PC games are cheaper than console games. I've probably saved around $200 in the past two years by buying PC games instead of console ones. And on top of that, I get the added benefit of more powerful hardware, keyboard+mouse, high resolution etc.

[Hexahedron]

Ok, Garret is an awesome Character, yet, times change. Already, years ago a first prototype for Thief 4 was supposed to be in modern times. Therefore this could twist the gameplay into a new a creative gameplay. Maybe light bulbs that could be broken, maybe electric devices that could interact with ligh bulbs and other light sources in order to turn them off, perhaps temporaly. Etc etc

[hellwalker]

TDS had sucky weapon attack speed, Make Blackjack attack speed slower like in T1 & 2. you can do whatever you want with a dagger :D I won't be using it.

Also levels that require ghosting would be nice, like Thief 2 mission where you have to scout manor with masks. There was nothing like this even on expert in TDS and it felt like a loss. Also more Non-combatants would be great, There were whole missions without any or too few of them and "do not kill any non-combatants" restriction on expert felt lame.

and one more to DO's. Random Conversations in streets, that is a must! I wanted more of those while playing TDS.
Different nonquest specific letters and notes also add lot to the atmosphere, more levels some of their sub-stories will span the better. It feels cool when when you see some event happen you read or heard about several missions before.
And more secret places, like in TMA, you hit some button and open hidden place with loot kind of stuff.

and for the love of all that is holy! leave the crappy vague map as it is! I hated it at first but it now just feels like a part of the game, having only vague scratch of the area and having to figure out the locations by yourself adds much to the game.

and one more major DONT. liner stealth! sucky thing that is dominating every other stealth game except for Hitman. No bloody timing based stealth and predefined liner path, I want huge locations and complete freedom once I'm in. you can take everything else away but not this! Thief should never be liner timing based excuse of a stealth game all other stealth actions are!

[Abelo]

And quite frankly, there's FAR worse things they could do than replace Garrett. A crap game with Garrett as the protagonist is FAR worse than an amazing game with the same spirit and gameplay dynamics as the original, but a different protagonist.
I absolutely agree with that.

You're doing it again, guys. Bellowing this and that are "the essence of Thief" while they just aren't, they're just cool features of the saga. If the very first Thief had had a different protagonist character the game would have been exactly as Thief as it is now. The essence would have been the same: a dark, disturbing first person sneaker.

Remember the first teaser? It never said: "With Garrett as the main character! Featuring rope arrows! Pagans don't talk like Jar-Jar Binks!". It just said: "No rocket launcher... no bio-armor... just skill, the dark... plus a few arrows". That's the core of Thief, not his main character. Thi4f could be as sublime with a new character, as long as the new character would be just as interesting (or even more).

In fact, as much as we love Garrett, he is far from a deep character. He can pretty much be described with very few words (cynical, chaotic/neutral), and even has quite a clichèd attitude if you look at other modern games and movies; so they could come in with more original, interesting alternatives. The problem here is whether they do it right or not, but not the fact of doing it.

[Jamesy]

Consoles are not more cost effective than PC's. I haven't upgraded my PC in over two years and I can still play most games on max settings.

Eh, I guess thats possible. I just look at the lower costs for consoles these days, and it doesn't seem like a good idea to get a brand new computer every couple years. A new 360 can cost anywhere from 200-500, whereas a new gaming PC can cost anywhere from 600-8000.

New games for consoles tend to be around 60, and the PC versions are around that mark. The used copies for PC are much cheaper, and console copies retain a high price for no reason at all sometimes.

Actually, I don't really care which really is more cost effective. I chose not to play new PC games because of weird security features like SecuROM. If I buy a game, I want the option of trading it to a friend or selling it used. If Thief had used SecuROM (were it available at the time) I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't be able to use an original copy anymore and would be forced to buy a new one.

Anyways, I was just upset that console users were being viewed as lower class gamers. 'Dumb' users exist on all fronts, and that can't really be helped. If anything console gamers are more hardcore because we have to play without the keyboard/mouse combo! :rasp:

[VIKTORIA]

I hate playing on the XBox... I'm a keyboard and mouse fan, myself. :D

[clock12345]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i think if thief could have a little bit RPG elements and little bit like assassins creed (i mean to the jumping) but dont make it really assassins creed just make it with the ability to climb everywhere thief's have experience to climb everywhere and make it little rpg element like if monster dies he have's money or food or Etc... you can upgrade your weapons and at the beggining of the game you can chose to play at 3th person or 1th person it shows you a demostraison and if you dont see all the stealth games are 3th person please make the game with an open city a big city to explore many easter eggs and secrets hidden weapons and etc make the game a bit like gta little bit there are horse riding and if you fell at the blackalley there can bee a bandit or group of bandits in the game you can chose the sides you wanna be the evil side or the good side you will have an bag where you collect all the stuff you can collect rocks and threw them to distract the guards and sometimes there will be an eating planets and there is a mission where you get caught and they send you to the prison and you'll have to break the prison also thief 4 should have a multiplayer (theres a game that looks like thief its called thievery its in multiplayer} at the multiplayer you can make co-op play campagin you can make thief match that the thief who collect's the most loots wins thiefs vs guards that the thief's have to steal all the loot's before the guards kill them. :=} please make this game like this even more better :+)

[Odyseeos]

Off the cuff, a few things occur to me that might not be immediately evident:

1. I thought the two chaos episodes in the city of T3 served for very well on replay. The mere fact that it was chaotic was interesting. It tested.

2. A weakness of T3, for me (vis a vis T1 and T2), is that there was little room for deep investigation. To my own recall, the only authentic surprises that yielded to investigation by players were the elegant kill available for the "unkillable" villain and the search for clock-tower re-climbing.

In T1 and T2, reading folders did not yield adequate walkthroughs. Through search, you could actually form new methods built upon discoveries of other methods. That sort of thing created a longterm relevance for T1 and T2 were not satisfied in any other game. There were so many secrets in T2 that at least one of them required the intervention of the designer for its discovery. That situation created a long viability for communal interaction that can't be beaten for enjoyment by everyone. It would have to be a joy for a Maker to see long attempts, rather than have to bear a preponderance individual outrage, always a source of inspiration.

Universally, you could read the game's situation on a lot of levels. Nobody seemed to fear even the idea of allegory. The cacheing of inspiration for imagination is a major, major lure for me.

3. I recall, when T2 was released, that the majority of T1 players disliked it. That ought be held in mind. A creative environment ruled for all three games. That T3 may have, nearing its end, become a little afraid of that, may remain the central mystery of the Thief series. I don't know.

4. I thought the color of the environment in T3 was a little softer, or warmer, than it really should have been. It held pretty closely to the personable quality in DeusX2. I'm not experienced at describing those sorts of effects. T1 and T2 aren't perfectly called "harsh", but there was an alienating quality that served Garrett's presence awfully well. In T3, the player as Garrett can't quite feel that he belongs there. So saying, his niche has the global perspective of that of ordinary people toward any thief. I don't think that's Garrett the Quasi-keeper's natural perspective. I think it's the environment that's a little uninviting.

5. The surprising entrance of Viktoria in T2 was-- at least-- one of the biggest plot-turns that has occurred anywhere. It immediately unified the two stories. And it was a shock because of the long delay, beautifully put by the long quest preceding. Not to mention the fact, in all of literature's storyland, where do you find such a castrating broad? What can't one do with a such a lovehate relationship?

6. In general, I thought the slow development, and discovery by the player, of each story was a major good and pretty unique in story-telling: Going about his own business, bits and pieces and rumors here and there that make the player wonder, and then Wham! he's right in the middle of it all.

7. I was put off by the fact that Garrett was recognizable in public in T3. That was not clearcut in T1 and T2, because there was no city. At one point in T2, Garrett was betrayed; but-- at least with elegant play-- he was not seen. Ideally, I would definitely prefer a situation in which the Player is recognized, or not, rather than Garrett the Master Thief. It could be a very interesting aspect of gameplay, especially if it is not central and is difficult to do.

8. I imagine, there's a lot of talk on playing a different character. Please don't do that. I don't care if it's an available option, but Garrett is sacred identity, even in name. Sherlock Holmes, Batman. He defines something. Once introduced, you miss his sharp commentary on events when it's not around. People really wait to see him again. I do.

9. Other than that, I'd really like to have the rope back. You could do some fine stuff with that darned thing.

[Caranfin]

Words. Oh how many words.
I'm sorry, but... What?

[vasanx]

So, you guys are basically saying that Thief can move on without Garrett, huh?

Well, in that case lets just have new guys to replace Kal-El, Bruce Wayne, Peter Parker, and Bruce Banner.

Lets see if Superman's, Dark Knight's, Spiderman's and Hulk's essence is still intact then.

Thief is not a game bout thieves! It's bout Garrett the Thief!!! :mad2:

[BlooferLady]

^ I liked to watch Batman: Beyond when I was younger... :) Just throwing out an example.

[GmanPro]

^^ Mediocre at best

[Master Taffer]

^^^ His opinion.

[TriFocal]

My wife just sent me the link to the Thief 4 site. All I have to say is this:

If this game is vaporware, or someone is fooling around then some Taffer is going to get blackjacked.

I am so happy about this!

I've been running around singing "Flames around you Flames, nothing but Flames burning your flesh" all afternoon.

I have too much time on my hands don't I?

Tri-focal

Oh, and PLEASE make it possible to make and run MODs from the very beginning? Mods have kept Thief alive all these years and Thief III showed what happens when you hold out.

[Master Taffer]

Do a search for existing threads first, please. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=88700)

Oh, and welcome aboard.

[Odyseeos]

One concurrent thing occurred to me this morning. There was a spirit of rule-breaking, for the player, built into T1 and T2. I remember, early on, a group spending weeks trying to find a way to ghost past a curtain, with someone finally finding a way to do it. Personally, I recall mindlessly accepting a barrier as defining an impasse, for years, until it suddenly struck me that it might respond to the sword. And suddenly, there was a huge landscape of possibilities opened up. That material correspondence is profoundly apt for Garrett. If anything else, at the Makers' best, he was a guy whose curiosity could not be.impeded-- even by the Makers themselves. Surprise was built into the design.

Frankly, no offence, but who cares where TriFocal's letter appears? It's a mighty fine writing to read in any location. Don't pour cold water on it, whether from authority or experience, f'r cryin' out loud. That aside, Eidos has, by far, the best internal site I've come across.

[vasanx]

^ I liked to watch Batman: Beyond when I was younger... :) Just throwing out an example.

I like that show actually. The suit was freakin' cool with the red bat logo. But it's nothin compared to the man himself. Even the old Wayne was still awesome in that show.

Batman Beyond worked because it was made clear from the very beginning that it was a different Batman.

If EM chooses not to use Garrett then, they shouldn't call it T4.

Just make it a reboot and call it Thief ala Star Trek.

When you call it T4 people kinda expect Garrett to be the main protagonist. I know TDS ended with him being a Keeper and having a deja vu moment and all.

Again, IS, can't thank you enough. :mad2:

So, for the sake of continuity, lets have Garrett grooming this girl, and in the process going all gooey and actually start caring bout something when suddenly......
.........the girl gets nabbed by someone and Garrett is forced to steal some valuable sh*t to keep her alive.

They can even have a later mission where he finally decides to steal the girl back when he realized whoever holding her isn't goin to hold their end of the bargain.

I dunno. But it has to be somethin like that. I really can't imagine playing T4 as someone else especially since TDS never happened in our books and we have been waitin since TMA to properly play as Garrett again.

[clock12345]

i think if thief could have a little bit RPG elements and little bit like assassins creed (i mean to the jumping) but dont make it really assassins creed just make it with the ability to climb everywhere thief's have experience to climb everywhere and make it little rpg element like if monster dies he have's money or food or Etc... you can upgrade your weapons and at the beggining of the game you can chose to play at 3th person or 1th person it shows you a demostraison and if you dont see all the stealth games are 3th person please make the game with an open city a big city to explore many easter eggs and secrets hidden weapons and etc make the game a bit like gta little bit there are horse riding and if you fell at the blackalley there can bee a bandit or group of bandits in the game you can chose the sides you wanna be the evil side or the good side you will have an bag where you collect all the stuff you can collect rocks and threw them to distract the guards and sometimes there will be an eating planets and there is a mission where you get caught and they send you to the prison and you'll have to break the prison also thief 4 should have a multiplayer (theres a game that looks like thief its called thievery its in multiplayer} at the multiplayer you can make co-op play campagin you can make thief match that the thief who collect's the most loots wins thiefs vs guards that the thief's have to steal all the loot's before the guards kill them. :=} please make this game like this even more better :+)

[Nate]

Please, No 'Thi4f: Assassin's Creed'!

[crazy_bex]

What I'd like to see most is an engaging storyline, but dont fall into the trap of making it too much like the others. The storyline should be different to whats gone before, but not so different that it is alienated from the previous games

Please keep the key elements of the game, ie Medieval/victorian steampunk setting (modern setting is a big no no), Hammerites and pagans, Garrett (obviously!), magic/fantasy elements and the rope arrows.

Please dont make it too much like Assassins Creed either because that would ruin the unique identity of the game that makes Thief, Thief.

I think the Hammerites should be focused on abit more in the next game. Maybe they could get themselves into a bit of trouble somehow, but dont just turn it into