HACKING - the All About It Discussion Thread

[Ashpolt]

As it's about the only piece of new information from the FAQ thread, I thought it'd be a good idea to start a conversation about the hacking element of Deus Ex 3. Here's what we know:

Hacking is a major pillar of gameplay in DX3 and is certainly not a mini-game feature like we saw in Bioshock 1. We don't have too much information right now but think of hacking DX3 as almost a Real Time Strategy game where you have your territory that must be defended against the CPU. Again, it remains an option which you can modify with augmentations if that is the way you choose to develop your character. You can spice things up with using your hacking skills and/or your social skills to unlock new possibilities, but you never have to do it if you don't want to.

Personally, I can't see how this can possibly be a good idea. In DX1 and IW (if you had the aug) hacking was something you did all the freaking time, so if it's anywhere near as prevalent in DX3 then we're going to be spending a lot of time playing this not-minigame - and what an immersion breaker! Imagine the scene: you're running away from some enemies, you spot a turret but duck behind a wall before it can shoot you, and you see its control panel. In DX1 or IW, you activate the panel, and in a few seconds you've turned it against the enemies that are chasing you. In DX3, you're going to have to sit there for a while and play a not-minigame, during which time either time pauses (removing any tension from hacking) or you get an angry terrorist boot up your backside.

And as other people have pointed out, even ignoring anything else, this is going to get really, really tedious after a few goes. Did anyone else purposely avoid hacking in Bioshock after a couple of hours just so you didn't have to play the minigame, even though it meant getting less stuff? Yeah, me too.

I never bought into it when people said it before, but I'm beginning to agree now: it seems like the time are trying to make Bioshock 2 rather than Deus Ex 3.

[René]

In DX1 and IW (if you had the aug) hacking was something you did all the freaking time, so if it's anywhere near as prevalent in DX3 then we're going to be spending a lot of time playing this not-minigame - and what an immersion breaker!

Two things:

1. You don't have to always hack. You can often use one of the other gameplay pillars to complete the objective without hacking.

2. If you choose to hack, there will be hacking-related Augs that will make hacking easier and quicker if you choose to modify Adam that way.

Imagine the scene: you're running away from some enemies, you spot a turret but duck behind a wall before it can shoot you, and you see its control panel. In DX1 or IW, you activate the panel, and in a few seconds you've turned it against the enemies that are chasing you. In DX3, you're going to have to sit there for a while and play a not-minigame, during which time either time pauses (removing any tension from hacking) or you get an angry terrorist boot up your backside.

I like this scenario! But as above, depending on how you've been modifying Adam, hacking can go very quickly.

And as other people have pointed out, even ignoring anything else, this is going to get really, really tedious after a few goes. Did anyone else purposely avoid hacking in Bioshock after a couple of hours just so you didn't have to play the minigame, even though it meant getting less stuff? Yeah, me too.

If you don't like it you don't have to do it! Anyway, it's way more fun than the Super Mario plumbing game in Bioshock.

I never bought into it when people said it before, but I'm beginning to agree now: it seems like the time are trying to make Bioshock 2 rather than Deus Ex 3.

Well, no.

Bioshock had very limited RPG elements as your weapons and plasmids could all be maxed out all at the same time. In DX3 you have to make choices since you can't get everything in one playthrough, and by choosing some things early on, you won't be able to get some other things later.

And our story is way more complex with many people to talk with. And we have a great dialogue system.

Also, Bioshock was a very linear corridor shooter. Deus Ex 3 has large open environments that are non-linear with different ways to solve objectives.

[Ashpolt]

Again, your answer revolves around "if you don't like this bad gameplay element, avoid it" - much as with third person and multi-kill augs. How can you keep touting this as a game full of choice if players are going to be put off playing certain ways just because they don't want to run into questionable game mechanics?

So if I want to play a game that sticks to template set by DX1, I can't hack, I can't use cover properly, and I can't use certain augs - doesn't sound like much choice, does it?

[René]

Again, your answer revolves around "if you don't like this bad gameplay element, avoid it"

Yikes. Sorry Ashpolt but I completely disagree with you. Hacking in DX3 is so much better than DX1's "press a button and wait for the progress bar to reach 100%" method.

So if I want to play a game that sticks to template set by DX1, I can't hack

If you like DX1's style of hacking over DX3's, augment Adam with hacking augs so that it becomes quicker and easier.

I can't use cover properly

If you like DX1's style of cover, you can do the same thing in DX3 and remain in 1st person.

and I can't use certain augs

Augmentations have different effects and different ways of being displayed.

[Blade_hunter]

I just imagine if the game features everything you don't like :lol:

[Ashpolt]

Yikes. Sorry Ashpolt but I completely disagree with you. Hacking in DX3 is so much better than DX1's "press a button and wait for the progress bar to reach 100%" method.

Opinion. It worked fine in DX1: it was quick, it was something that could be done on every terminal you reached, and it didn't remove you from the game. This not-a-minigame obviously will do that.

If you like DX1's style of hacking over DX3's, augment Adam with hacking augs so that it becomes quicker and easier.

But will still remove me from the game world? And either way, I'll have to play through a good chunk of the game using this not-a-minigame method before I get to a point where it's quick.

If you like DX1's style of cover, you can do the same thing in DX3 and remain in 1st person.

And judging by other games that use this method of cover, it won't actually register cover as well in first person as it does in third, because the game won't sense me as being "dug in." This could be different in Deus Ex 3, but it's this way in every other game that uses this cover style, and it seems to be a flaw inherent in the system rather than anything else, so I'm not going to get my hopes up that it won't be there.

Augmentations have different effects and different ways of being displayed.

Yeah, and some of those will flit me into immersion-breaking third person to show off my "cool moves" so I won't want to use them, but for game mechanic reasons rather than because they're not useful - exactly the point I was making.

I just imagine if the game features everything you don't like :lol:

Thus far, that's pretty much the game they're making. And it's a shame, too, because your "medigun" idea was really, really good. If only the dev team had your sense of ingenuity.

[facepalm]

René, can you elaborate on the hacking system a bit more, I'm genuinely intrigued by what little we've heard so far.

I understand the feature is still undergoing development, so you can't give out information that is too specific and probably bound to change at some point, but if you could give us your impressions of the system, and use expressions beyond "awesome" and "wicked cool", preferably tell us something like what other RTSes it "kind of reminds you of", or, if you're feeling very generous, give us a generic overview of some of the basic gameplay concepts.

[steelle]

I talked to a friend of mine about this and he suggested that what they mean by a hacking system that feels like an RTS game is just that when you hack, the computer will try to counter your hack, and you will have to respond accordingly. There could easily be augs that change this process, maybe by rendering the computer defenseless and slowing its reaction time to your moves. Hacking could require skill when you suck at it, but with augmentation would be just like the DX hack of old where you press a button and forget about it.

Personally I think that sounds pretty cool. Is it so bad that the dev team want to add in something original? All of the big complaints people have so far don't seem that big of a deal to me. The regenerating health maybe because that means no location based damage system, but as long as there are still augs to change/speed up that process I'm cool.

Why is everyone so angry before they even see some footage? Also, Rene, when will we see some footage?

[Blade_hunter]

Thus far, that's pretty much the game they're making. And it's a shame, too, because your "medigun" idea was really, really good. If only the dev team had your sense of ingenuity.

LOL, I didn't expected somebody would really appreciate the idea, and less with a compliment of that kind, because I'm sure people thinks I'm stupid with my "ambitious ideas from the hell" :hmm:

The fact we got hacking related augs seems to be a bit strange IMO
In deus ex 2 we got the neural interface the one that was integrated in DX1 and not in the 2 but the one from the 2 gave us the ability to hack directly.

For the rest I prefer to see some details ...

[K^2]

Ashpolt brought up a good point.

Rene, does the engine actually check the line of sight to see if you are hidden or not, or does it simply check if you are using cover system?

[GmanPro]

...I'll have to play through a good chunk of the game using this not-a-minigame method before I get to a point where it's quick.


This is one of my main concerns with the concept too. At least the hacking system in DX1 never got old or tedious, although I think that part of the reason that the 'plumbing' hacking minigame in BioShock was so annoying was because it was used for everything from security turrets to locked safes. I'm assuming that lock picking and multitool'in will still be a part of DX3's gameplay.

PLEASE tell me you guys didn't remove lock picking and multitool'in for something moar 'efficient'.

[HouseOfPain]

Rene, I think honestly it's just miscommunication on your part.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and please answer any questions I ask ^^.

If you want to hack something, you go up to it, press a button, and all the sudden it's like starting up a game of Starcraft?

http://www.thezeal.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/04/starcraft.png

Anyway, how long will hacking take? I know it changes depending on how many augs you put into hacking, but give us an estimate if you don't have ANY augs.

Also, once hacked, can you stay in the terminal for as long as you want?

[Ashpolt]

Ashpolt brought up a good point.

Rene, does the engine actually check the line of sight to see if you are hidden or not, or does it simply check if you are using cover system?

Sorry, don't get me wrong, I'm sure it'll check line of sight to some degree, I just don't think it'll be as effective staying in first person as it will pressing the "dig-in" button. If nothing else, the level you can crouch normally is fixed: you can make yourself, say, 3ft tall. However, using the dig in button, it's adapted to the object you're using as cover, so you might be able to take cover behind a 2.5 foot wall by using dig-in, but just crouching normally you'll have your head poking out and so will still be able to get shot.

I don't know if I'm explaining it well...do you get what I'm trying to say?

[facepalm]

I talked to a friend of mine about this and he suggested that what they mean by a hacking system that feels like an RTS game is just that when you hack, the computer will try to counter your hack, and you will have to respond accordingly.

At its heart it is an RTS, so you're going to have some kind of economy system and a selection of units at your disposal. I'd like it if René gave us some kind of reference, like another RTS title, so we could get a better grasp of the idea.

I've been tossing around various ideas, and the one that appeals to me the most is a sort of minigame that isn't a clickfest against the computer, but has rather simple mechanics and is more slow paced and macro-oriented, where you'd have the initial stage of gaining access to the system, after which you have to still keep paying attention to the game while you're trying to absorb the information you came looking for in the first place.

As long as it isn't cyberspace Starcraft I'll remain cautiously optimistic.

[Blade_hunter]

Some games are like commandos or like ground control and nothing like warcraft/starcraft

[René]

Opinion. It worked fine in DX1: it was quick, it was something that could be done on every terminal you reached, and it didn't remove you from the game. This not-a-minigame obviously will do that.

But will still remove me from the game world?

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

[René]

If you want to hack something, you go up to it, press a button, and all the sudden it's like starting up a game of Starcraft?

See below.

René, can you elaborate on the hacking system a bit more, I'm genuinely intrigued by what little we've heard so far.

See below.

I talked to a friend of mine about this and he suggested that what they mean by a hacking system that feels like an RTS game is just that when you hack, the computer will try to counter your hack, and you will have to respond accordingly. There could easily be augs that change this process, maybe by rendering the computer defenseless and slowing its reaction time to your moves. Hacking could require skill when you suck at it, but with augmentation would be just like the DX hack of old where you press a button and forget about it.

This is pretty accurate. But I didn't say 'nothin! :whistle:

Anyway, how long will hacking take? I know it changes depending on how many augs you put into hacking, but give us an estimate if you don't have ANY augs.

It depends on the security of the terminal itself. But probably anywhere from 10 seconds to 30 seconds or more for really hard ones? Don't quote me on that since I don't want the dev team to beat me with reeds.

Also, once hacked, can you stay in the terminal for as long as you want?

Yes.

Rene, does the engine actually check the line of sight to see if you are hidden or not, or does it simply check if you are using cover system?

Line of sight.

[Igoe]

Thats good, something I really wanted out of DX1 was the ability to know what was going on around me while i hacked. In MOST cases NPCs would freeze before they fired, so while u were in dialogue or hacking the NPCs would run up and waiy for you, but with multitools and lockpics it kept you in real time and you had to keep focused on the door, like you would if actually lockpicking.

One thing that always bothered me in the Hitman series was that the animation showed 47 looking left and right as he lockpicked, checking cover, but if a guard DID wander by, 47 just kept picking. If he's going to LOOK it might as well have an auto stop function so that the looking means something.

If I can hack (through whatever means) and gameplay still carries on normally, thats a good thing. Makes you think twice before hacking.

HOWEVER, Ashpolt is also on the right track, and you should eventually be fully able to one-click your way into a system with the correct suite of augmentations.

[PlasmaSnake101]

It depends on the security of the terminal itself. But probably anywhere from 10 seconds to 30 seconds or more for really hard ones? Don't quote me on that since I don't want the dev team to beat me with reeds.


Sorry, couldn't resist...

[lumpi]

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

You mean Doom3 style? Loved that way of doing in-game computers...

[HouseOfPain]

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

Speaking of this, what about Data Cubes? The same I assume?

[jamhaw]

Yikes. Sorry Ashpolt but I completely disagree with you. Hacking in DX3 is so much better than DX1's "press a button and wait for the progress bar to reach 100%" method.


I have to say I think that the interactive hacking idea sounds really good. I really disliked the press a button and wait system. Will we still have timelimits on how long we can use a computer?

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

How big will the terminals be then? Or is the game just really simple? It seems like it may be difficult to play the minigame with a small little screen.

[HouseOfPain]

Will we still have timelimits on how long we can use a computer?

Also, once hacked, can you stay in the terminal for as long as you want?

Rene; Yes.

There you go :)

[Ashpolt]

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

OK, THERE'S the good news I've been waiting for! I still don't like the idea of a hacking minigame, but I've warmed to it a lot from that news.

Alternatively, I might just be in a more mellow mood than earlier because I've spent the last hour and a half shooting zombie-alikes. :P

Out of interest, if you can tell us: do all computer terminals work this way? I.E. even if I have a username and password, and so don't need to hack, does it stay in the world? I assume so, but it'd be nice to have it confirmed.

Also - do we get to type in usernames and password (and keycodes) manually? It really bugged me in IW that it did it automatically for you!

[lumpi]

Also - do we get to type in usernames and password (and keycodes) manually? It really bugged me in IW that it did it automatically for you!

God, yes, I just remembered about this.

If the team can answer this question with a "yes", my hopes for DX3 would be semi-restored. It's almost a better indicator of the "feel" of the game than that horrible medkit discussion.

[El_Bel]

See below.



See below.



This is pretty accurate. But I didn't say 'nothin! :whistle:



It depends on the security of the terminal itself. But probably anywhere from 10 seconds to 30 seconds or more for really hard ones? Don't quote me on that since I don't want the dev team to beat me with reeds.



Yes.



Line of sight.


Wow, some answers!! Are you feeling ok Rene? You are acting strange.. :p

[GmanPro]

Also - do we get to type in usernames and password (and keycodes) manually? It really bugged me in IW that it did it automatically for you!

Things like that are but a symptom of a much greater problem inherent in the core of the design of IW and I fear that Deus Ex 3 is treading dangerously close to this very same path.

[jamhaw]

Things like that are but a symptom of a much greater problem inherent in the core of the design of IW and I fear that Deus Ex 3 is treading dangerously close to this very same path.

Well IW was made as a console game and it would have been very difficult time consuming and boring to do it on a console. Thats why they had the codes automatically entered in The Conspiracy as well. Since this game it going to be merely ported to consoles (I think, I'm not sure where I got that from) then it would hopefully be keeping PC centric options for the PC version.

[K^2]

Line of sight.
Ok, thanks.

As for hacking, it still feels like EM is putting it in just because everyone else is doing it, but at least it seems like they tried to make it fluid. Choice of either using your gray matter and wasting a bit of time on each terminal, or upgrading hack augment to the fullest and simply logging into lower and mid-level terminals like in earlier games, somehow feels right for Deus Ex. There are still plenty of ways this can end up really broken, but at least they are on the right track.

[GmanPro]

Also, once hacked, can you stay in the terminal for as long as you want?


Yes.


This is a departure from Deus Ex. I'm not sure how I feel about that :hmm:

I guess its no big deal

[Necros]

This is a departure from Deus Ex. I'm not sure how I feel about that :hmm:

I guess its no big deal
I know how I feel about it, I like it. :)

And thanks for the answers and tips René! :thumb:

[Blade_hunter]

Normally their hacking system seems to be a "fast" system, because the system used in bioshock is more related to some flash games than a hack related thing
I don't know what they have in mind but I hope there is something "intelligent and smart"

[K^2]

Wow, some answers!! Are you feeling ok Rene? You are acting strange.. :p
I got this mental image for some reason. Every day for the past several months, Rene visits D'astous' office. The same conversation takes place.

D'Astous (In strong French accent.)
- They are asking questions again?
- Yes, Mr. D'Astous.
- Well, let them sweat. Don't tell them anything.
(With obedient disappointment in voice.) - Yes, Mr. D'Astous.

Maybe that was Rene's way of rebelling a little bit. Being a community relationship guy and not spilling all the info must be difficult.

[AaronJ]

As it's about the only piece of new information from the FAQ thread, I thought it'd be a good idea to start a conversation about the hacking element of Deus Ex 3. Here's what we know:



Personally, I can't see how this can possibly be a good idea. In DX1 and IW (if you had the aug) hacking was something you did all the freaking time, so if it's anywhere near as prevalent in DX3 then we're going to be spending a lot of time playing this not-minigame - and what an immersion breaker! Imagine the scene: you're running away from some enemies, you spot a turret but duck behind a wall before it can shoot you, and you see its control panel. In DX1 or IW, you activate the panel, and in a few seconds you've turned it against the enemies that are chasing you. In DX3, you're going to have to sit there for a while and play a not-minigame, during which time either time pauses (removing any tension from hacking) or you get an angry terrorist boot up your backside.

And as other people have pointed out, even ignoring anything else, this is going to get really, really tedious after a few goes. Did anyone else purposely avoid hacking in Bioshock after a couple of hours just so you didn't have to play the minigame, even though it meant getting less stuff? Yeah, me too.

I never bought into it when people said it before, but I'm beginning to agree now: it seems like the time are trying to make Bioshock 2 rather than Deus Ex 3.

WHAT THE HELL!!!! Is this confirmed?!?!?!

[Larington]

Sounds like a variant on System Shock 2s hacking system* but in real time, I'm just glad that game time doesn't pause when you go into hacking mode, its one of two major reasons for why I didn't like Bioshocks hacking minigame, firstly that it made no sense in a game time gets paused kind of way (But the minigame has a realtime element on it so surely real-time is ticking along, yet it ain't) and secondly that it got really awfully repetitive.

The big challenge, if it really has to be some sort of minigame, is to prevent the game from being annoying/repetitive/dull after the 50th time you've played it, something that you'd be quite happy to play standalone (Bioshocks minigame failed in that regard).

"I never bought into it when people said it before, but I'm beginning to agree now: it seems like the time are trying to make Bioshock 2 rather than Deus Ex 3."
Hmm, I've got this really uncomfortable feeling at the back of my mind, that that remark isn't as wide of the mark as I wish it was.

*In SS2s hacking system, you are presented with a pattern of squares and have to get 3 in a row, based on your skill and augmentations you will either fail/succeed each time you click on a square, some (Number depending on skill) are trap squares that set off an alarm if you fail that particular square. Don't think DX3s will be exactly like that, but in concept its sorta reminiscent if the same basic idea.

[Ashpolt]

WHAT THE HELL!!!! Is this confirmed?!?!?!

Straight from the FAQ thread.

[GmanPro]

Its not going to be as tedious as in BioShock because we are still going to have lock picking, and hopefully multitools as well. They used the plumbing minigame for everything in BioShock.

[DemonNick]

Funny thing is that when Deus Ex first came out, I remember that me and a lot of other fans of the game said that the hacking system was one of the major flaws.

personally I'd rather something more akin to uplink than SS2, but so long as it's not a remake of an old puzzle game like Bioshock's was then I'm a happy camper :)

It being all in engine rather than a separate screen is really sweet as well. :)

[Ashpolt]

Its not going to be as tedious as in BioShock because we are still going to have lock picking, and hopefully multitools as well. They used the plumbing minigame for everything in BioShock.

Dunno about you, but I hacked a hell of a lot in DX1 and IW. There may be alternatives, but I want to choose those alternatives because they're a better use of my time / resources, rather than because I simply don't want to have to play a minigame for the 50th time.

And yeah, it sort of worked in SS2, but that's because it was really, really quick, and it kind of made sense as an actual hacking tool - I don't see how an RTS style minigame can pass itself off as something you might actually have to do to hack a system. That said, the sheer fact that it's been confirmed that you'll remain in-engine for this makes me inclined to give this feature a hell of a lot more leeway than I would otherwise, so we'll see.

[Blade_hunter]

System shock used the same hacking system for everything too, the only difference is you aren't forced to make everyone of them and / or use the "minigame" to reach your ends.
Like deus ex you can hack / find the code / password / key / or destroy to pass a situation / open a way.
Bioshock used some tweaks from SS2 but in a more uniform manner and not better than they were in SS2 (take photos to make more damage :hmm: )
I preferred the item / organ research, with the need of search skill level and chemicals to complete the research

The only interesting thing from bioshock are the inventions though but some other games before used that kind of thing

For me a game about choices needs to give choices even to open a locked door or pass to the other side of a wall

[K^2]

Ashpolt, depending on vulnerabilities being exploited, it can look a lot like an RTS. For example, if you managed to get limited access and trying to get root via buffer overflow on a system with canaries, you will need to know exactly when the security code checks the canaries between buffers. If it detects a change in canaries, it will lock the system. You have to get root and kill security process before it has a chance to do that. This is the basis for action-response-action scheme that has been described as RTS-like.

But this is just as far as the real world motivation may go. In my opinion, the important part is how the gameplay works. The very concept of an ICE Breaker is not very realistic, but as long as it works within gameplay, I'm fine with it.

And from gameplay perspective, if you will only hack a few times, it won't get repetitive. So as long as the hacking aug is there, and fully upgraded it makes hacking very simple so that you have to go through the RTS thing on only highly secure systems, I don't see a problem. If you'll be hacking a lot, you will chose that aug. And if so, it's no more repetitive than hacking in DX.

[lumpi]

For example, if you managed to get limited access and trying to get root via buffer overflow on a system with canaries, you will need to know exactly when the security code checks the canaries between buffers. If it detects a change in canaries, it will lock the system. You have to get root and kill security process before it has a chance to do that.

... sure :cool:

I'd still like to know, though: Can you type in passwords manually?

Here's an example for how it could affect gameplay:

You meet some knowledgeable guy at a bar. He tells you the guy you're looking for likes parrots. Your hacking skill is zero, but your conversation skill is pretty good, so you got the info. Now you try to access the guy's email account and the password turns out to be "Ara".

I had a few moments like that in Deus Ex (or at least similar ones) and it felt great.

[K^2]

^ And that's how most hacking is actually done.

[Blade_hunter]

You would mean you want some enigmas to solve ?
Even in a non conversation related in SS2 I got one that perhaps everyone who played SS2 remember.
The Screens when we change their picture in the level 5 of the Ship they display numbers and those numbers were a part of a code for a terminal

[GmanPro]

And like you guys, I wonder if we'll type in logins/PWs and keycodes manually. And if it'll lead to clever moves (exploits, arguably) like "save your game, pay someone to learn a code, reload game, use the code, keep your cash".

Ha! I did that all the time :D . Like the free clinic in Hells Kitchen.

Lol! I'll never forget the code to the 'phone booth' in battery park. M-O-L-E, that's 6653.

[Qumni]

heh I guessed the code in castle clinton:666 :D

[Blade_hunter]

0453 the Unatco storage if I remember (sometimes I don't remember correctly even if i did that code a ton of times)

[Blade_hunter]

That'd be 0451.

I think I can beat DX with my eyes closed. Is it good or bad? :D

I was sure I've made a mistake :hmm:

[GmanPro]

That'd be 0451.

I think I can beat DX with my eyes closed. Is it good or bad? :D

I think its a good thing

http://www.sixtysecondview.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/statue.bmp

[Ghostface]

Examples of dystopia hacking:

fast forward to 3:05:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11zBndhcOrQ

Another example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10lUbCZncio

[HouseOfPain]

WOW.

That was... AWESOME?

I'm downloading this mod as I type!

[Ninjerk]

Dystopia is incredible, but be prepared for an enormous learning curve. Map knowledge is so much more important in that game than most other FPS I've ever played.

EDIT: Topic: I doubt it. I thought I just read something about it being "RTS-like." There is decker strategy but it's hardly RTS-like.

[GmanPro]

Its not going to pull you into a virtual world. I think Rene said the terminal screens were going to be like in Doom 3.

[facepalm]

TekWar did something similar back in '95.

http://www.gameplanet.cz/download/clanky-obr/v-2548-tekwar.gif

[Blade_hunter]

Dystopia used a sort of TRON like parallel world.
It's interesting, but expect to see something related to hack with some decisions to take during the hack, many persons suggested that before...

[Romeo]

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.
Aw, that's killer! That was one of the problems I had with Oblivion compared to Morrowind - In Oblivion time stopped so I could lock-pick, which killed the tension of getting caught doing it. ::)

[K^2]

Its not going to pull you into a virtual world. I think Rene said the terminal screens were going to be like in Doom 3.
Are all screens going to be like Doom3? Because that game had the perfect system for a game like DX. Especially with all the scripting possibilities, abilities to link in feeds from cameras, etc.

[GmanPro]

I sincerely hope so. Ahh man, that would be pretty sweet. This definitely falls under good news if its true.

edit: here it is:

Actually, no! You'll be glad to hear that unlike Deus Ex 1, which took you out of the game world and presented you with a new screen and the progress bar, hacking in DX3 keeps you in the world. Everything is rendered in-engine so as you're hacking at a terminal, you can still look around, up, down, left, and right as things are happening. You have to keep an eye out for guard patrols as you're trying to hack.

[GmanPro]

^^ Totally agree. I liked that Morrowind lock picking system a lot. It reminded me of Deus Ex. On a side note, I believe that Bethesda is planning on announcing Elder Scrolls V some time this year, rumor has it they've been working on it for some time already.

[Ashpolt]

Examples of dystopia hacking:

fast forward to 3:05:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11zBndhcOrQ

Another example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10lUbCZncio

Looks really cool, but it's definitely an example of what I don't want to see in DX3 because it takes you out of the gameworld. And look how long it took him to hack that panel - nearly 2 minutes. OK he had to listen to the tutorial speech, but you've also got to figure that it's going to be a relatively easy hack because it's the tutorial - I guess others are longer?

[Blade_hunter]

I just hope the hacking would be different when we pick a lock, hack key pads/control pannels, terminals and computers.

I got a site about lockpicking but I don't think it's a goot idea to post it here

[LatwPIAT]

Why all the hate towards an RTS-like system? It can look awesome:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmRpLLs7SNE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBrJxSAL8n4
But then again, I'd much prefer an Uplink-like system where you buy and prepeare small lines of code to do your work for you. Like, say, you have a number of slots you can use when hacking, so you prepeare a number of programs. An ICE breaker to prevent counter-hacking attempts, a decrypter to decrypt files, and a Password Breaker to take care of passwords. Maybe a root-access channel and some other funny incorrectly used buzzwords too, like "worm" and "chimeara virus".

As for lockpicking, I really liked the system in Splinter Cell, where you actually had to move the pins in the tumbler yourself. A system like this could be rather interesting actually. At low levels, all you have is a lockpick in the lock, so you have to move the tumblers based on sound only. As your level increases or augs are added, you can, for example, begin to see into the lock, allowing you to see how many pins there are, in which position they are, etc. and lastly, at the highest levels, lockpikcing is almost automatic.

[Blade_hunter]

The RTS or even a puzzle game could be an hacking related "minigame", that's not the case of all but it could be related to hack.
The form used plays a good part of that.
the "minigame" must be short and give use the feel to hack something.

Many games used a "minigame" to hack
In Deus ex and some RPG's it's only in relation with a skill and sometimes it uses other parameters in DX it used resources, except for computers where the time was an element to take in consideration, but for some other games we can fail the hack
System shock 1&2 used a minigame, Star trek Elite force used a minigame too.

Most of us wants that hacking minigame doesn't cut us from the living world (it was the only thing related to hack that IW got a point)
Some players wanted to "do" the hack, and to do the hack or got an interaction with the hacking process the minigame is the only solution, but it must to have a relation with what we do in the game world

To pick a lock in splinter cell it used a minigame, but it was related to lockpicking, we picked the lock.
Sometimes the minigames are just make the sequence in a right order

[Ninjerk]

Looks really cool, but it's definitely an example of what I don't want to see in DX3 because it takes you out of the gameworld. And look how long it took him to hack that panel - nearly 2 minutes. OK he had to listen to the tutorial speech, but you've also got to figure that it's going to be a relatively easy hack because it's the tutorial - I guess others are longer?

If he had known what he was doing that would have taken 35 seconds tops. He did idle quite a bit, he didn't move through the tunnel properly, and he obviously wasn't familiar with the hacking minigame. The hacking side of the game in Dystopia is good, but as you said, it really doesn't belong in DX3 single player. It is designed with multiplayer combat in mind so sometimes the actual process of hacking might be quick, but there will be enemy hackers from the other team trying to kill your cyberspace "avatar" while you hack it.

Watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMwTcgg0wMs&feature=related beginning with 2:11 (tip 2.4 won't exist come version 1.2, iirc) to get an idea of some of the nuances of cyberspace.

Honestly, what I would like to see for DX3 is a type of hacking system in which you initiate some sort of attack on the security system that would take a given amount of seconds during which time you can evade or combat enemies. More difficult systems would have more "rounds" of attacks and higher level hacking skills could offer more aggressive programs or decreased wait times for programs.

[Irate Iguana]

Minigames are almost always annoying. If they aren’t the first time they will be after the fith time. More often than not they take too long to complete and offer nothing in return. Those that aren’t irritating are so trivial that you can’t help but wonder why the minigame was introduced in the first place when a simple animation would be enough.

With a RPG there is another problem. Instead of the charaters’ skill you are relying on the players’ skill. It doesn’t matter if the character gets a higher skill if the player still sucks at the minigame. So you can get a super hacker character that still can’t break into an infoterminal.

With this minigame we know that once we gain access to a system that we can stay in the system for as long as we like. What I’m wondering is whether we will have full access or if that is dependent on the skill level and augs of Adam. In DX you needed at least Advanced before you could set the turret against people (or you needed the login). Will we gain complete access to a system once we have hacked it, or do the augs you have influence that? If all they do is reduce the amount of time it takes to play the minigame, then what is the point of specializing in hacking?

[GmanPro]

Not all minigames are bad. In KotOR I played Pazaak all the time. I love that game. Not to mention the racing. I actively sought out those minigames. Then there's the dice poker game in the Witcher, which I also loved to play. Picking locks in Thief 3 was practically a minigame, and it was awesome. It never got old for me, even though I was constantly picking locks in that game.

[Irate Iguana]

In KotOR I played Pazaak all the time. I love that game. Not to mention the racing.

Pazaak was fun. But it wasn't neccessary to progress and certainly wasn't thrown in your face all the time.


'Picking locks in Thief 3 was practically a minigame, and it was awesome. It never got old for me, even though I was constantly picking locks in that game.

That whas a trivial minigame. It really added no suspense for me. Once you figured out that all points were at the eight standard compass points you could open even the toughest locks in a few seconds.

I preferred the lockpicking as done in the Hitman games. An animation with a fixed length. You had to pick the correct time in the guard routes to start picking or you would be caught.

[GmanPro]

...Once you figured out that all points were at the eight standard compass points you could open even the toughest locks in a few seconds.


Isn't that the idea?

[Blade_hunter]

Minigames rely on player skill but deus ex isn't a pure RPG, shooting required player skills too

In deus ex
ingame skill + player skill = the chances you have to hit
some minigames in mixes (FPS and RPG) used player ability + the skill

the hacking in deus ex got 2 things
the lockpick and electronic hack needed resource management and time lower our skill is harder the choice to pick lock is, but sometimes we got some alternate ways instead of hacking
the computer hack had an other system
the hack skill gave use time to perform our actions, and the higher skills added more possibilities when we hacked a terminal.
In Deus Ex we need the computer skill 3 to avoid the use of passwords.

[Ninjerk]

Isn't that the idea?

If you can do it in a few seconds having barely thought about it after the initial discovery, what's the point of inclusion?

[a house]

Is EM working with a hacking specialist?

[GmanPro]

If you can do it in a few seconds having barely thought about it after the initial discovery, what's the point of inclusion?

Because it takes a while before you become good enough to be able to do it instantly. It enforces the RPG mentality, that your character is becoming more powerful over time. Lots of reasons, but mostly because its fun and looks cool.

[K^2]

Is EM working with a hacking specialist?
They tried to, until he got caught trying to break into their server to steal alpha source.

(Maybe this should be in rumors thread.)

[Irate Iguana]

Because it takes a while before you become good enough to be able to do it instantly.

Depends on the person. Took me four locks before I figured out the trick. After that it was just a minor annoyance when opening something.


It enforces the RPG mentality, that your character is becoming more powerful over time. Lots of reasons, but mostly because its fun and looks cool.

Thief is not an RPG. If you want character growth you can have it with skill points. Upgrade lock picking and have the character gain an actual advantage when lock picking. This was how DX did it. For me it is a step back that they removed the character becoming better and instead put in a minigame.

If you are going about game design just implementing things because they look cool you will get a mess. Look at how Bethesda develops games. They almost directly skip the planning phase and implement anything that looks cool. Fallout 3 was a total wreck because of it.

[Mindmute]

For me it is a step back that they removed the character becoming better and instead put in a minigame.

René mentioned you could still invest into augmenting Adam to become better at hacking, so as long as the minigame is passable, I actually welcome this, as opposed to a just a progress bar and a button.

[Irate Iguana]

René mentioned you could still invest into augmenting Adam to become better at hacking

So far he only mentioned the speed of the minigame. He hasn't said anything about becoming better at hacking like we had in DX.

[K^2]

Somebody suggested a system where at full level hacking into most consoles is essentially automatic, and Rene hinted that this is an extremely good guess. So the amount of stuff you actually need to do decreases with higher levels of the aug.

[GmanPro]

If you are going about game design just implementing things because they look cool you will get a mess.

Believe me, I am all for a straight up Deus Ex 1 style lock picking and multitool system. But its not going to happen.

Look at how Bethesda develops games. They almost directly skip the planning phase and implement anything that looks cool. Fallout 3 was a total wreck because of it.

May I remind you that Morrowind had a very DX style lockpicking system. Fallout 3's system showed promise but wasn't quite there, the Thief 3 system was almost perfect.

Becoming pro enough to be able to open any lock in two seconds was the whole point. You were Garret, master thief after all. Besides, EM already stated that they are taking out skill points with respect to aiming and targeting, letting the player rely entirely on their skill with the mouse. So it seems likely that a lock picking mini-game that utilizes the players skill directly is what we are going to see, and I for one would much rather see a Thief 3 style game than some Oblivion/Fallout3 game. How about you?

Somebody suggested a system where at full level hacking into most consoles is essentially automatic, and Rene hinted that this is an extremely good guess. So the amount of stuff you actually need to do decreases with higher levels of the aug.

And there's that too. I'm sure there will be ways of making hacking/lock picking faster and faster, almost exactly like a skill system. Not to mention the possibility of blowing open the lock with an explosive, or getting a key.

[Wulflorne]

It may make it overly complex or frustrating (which is frowned upon in the current game market), but I think adding some rudimentary hacking elements from a game like Uplink would be better than inventing some sort of mini-game that really has nothing to do with hacking, but solving a Flash browser-puzzle.

And getting back to more "casual" examples, I've always liked the Splinter Cell lock-picking minigame. It was more like actually manipulating the lockpick tools than playing chutes and ladders or Sudoku. ;)

[Irate Iguana]

So it seems likely that a lock picking mini-game that utilizes the players skill directly is what we are going to see, and I for one would much rather see a Thief 3 style game than some Oblivion/Fallout3 game. How about you?

Between the two systems I'd rather see the Thief minigame than the Oblivion/Fallout 3 system. Thief's system was much less annoying.

However I'd rather not see any minigame for it and just a return to the way DX did it. I agree with you that it seems very unlikely that EM will implement it when you take into account the current direction of the game.



And there's that too. I'm sure there will be ways of making hacking/lock picking faster and faster, almost exactly like a skill system.

If all that happens with more investing in the hacking skill/augs is that the minigame becomes faster, than what is the point of specializing in it? Someome with no upgrades will be as competent as someone who specialized in hacking. The only difference being how much time they need to spend in the minigame. This makes geting upgrades for the hacking path essentially useless and they would be better spent in another skill. I really wish we could get some clarification on this matter from René.

[Mindmute]

So far he only mentioned the speed of the minigame. He hasn't said anything about becoming better at hacking like we had in DX.



If you choose to hack, there will be hacking-related Augs that will make hacking easier and quicker if you choose to modify Adam that way.


I see speed and ease as indicators for improvement, the better you are, the easier and faster something is.
What else do you think should improve with augmentation? The level of access we have on the terminal?

[Irate Iguana]

What else do you think should improve with augmentation? The level of access we have on the terminal?

For instance. DX had it and it worked. Maybe a way to access other computers on the same level via the one you are logged in?

[facepalm]

What else do you think should improve with augmentation? The level of access we have on the terminal?

The hacking in DX1 was poorly thought out, and the higher levels of proficiency offered no meaningful return for the ludicrous XP investment required. The new hacking tiers in DX3 should all offer plenty of new possibilities to the player. To illustrate, I've fleshed out a rough concept below:

Level 1 - Script kiddie

You can hack most mundane computer systems, such as ATMs, and while you can gain access to security terminals, your powers are limited: the best you can do is manipulate doors and temporarily disrupt security cameras.

Level 2 - Computer whiz

As your proficiency increases, you gain the ability to permanently shut down cameras as well as disrupt most security systems, such as laser tripwires, turrets and security bots for a short time.

Level 3 - SHODAN

Everything from cameras to bots are under your direct control, making stealthy infiltration a breeze - or a nightmare to your enemies, since you have the power to turn all of the facility's automated defenses against their former masters.

In addition to this, enemies should behave intelligently when it becomes apparent their security has been breached: guards inspecting every security console in their vicinity, possibly even countering the player's actions by using manual security overrides and such. This way, the hacker can't just sit in front of a console and watch through the cameras as the game plays itself, but he has to keep moving since he's still in danger of being discovered.

I hope René can give some further comment on how they're revamping the hacking system.

[Jerion]

^^ Nice. :)


I hope René can give some further comment on how they're revamping the hacking system.

Doubtful that he'll be making much comment on anything until the next press release.

[facepalm]

Then I insist you try to dig something up on your visit to Eidos Montréal. :D

[GmanPro]

If all that happens with more investing in the hacking skill/augs is that the minigame becomes faster, than what is the point of specializing in it? Someome with no upgrades will be as competent as someone who specialized in hacking. The only difference being how much time they need to spend in the minigame. This makes geting upgrades for the hacking path essentially useless and they would be better spent in another skill. I really wish we could get some clarification on this matter from René.


I'm worried about this also. I can see the same problem that Oblivion has with its lock picking system. Essentially, the security skill is completely useless, especially with all of the spells to unlock things and also the skeleton key, which cannot break.

I'm thinking that maybe certain locks simply cannot be opened without a high enough security skill. That would create incentive right there to want to put points into your security skill (or however their skill-point system works).

Edit:

Facepalm's idea sounds good for the hacking system. A system that lets you do more once you are already inside the terminal is a good idea. As for lock picking, it gets trickier.

Iguana, I see now what your concern was with fusing minigames with an RPG skill system was. I think that this area is absolutely key for ensuring a good Deus Ex experience. As of right now, I have no idea what EM has in store for us in terms of an RPG skill system, and I am worried that their plan is to completely remove said skill system in favor of player-controlled everything.

I cannot stress this enough, this is a bad idea! A skill system is vital for any role playing game. When I, as the player, can do anything in the game I want, then I don't feel like I'm playing the role of another character (Adam Jenson), instead I feel like I'm playing the role of myself. Hence, not a role playing game. The skill system is there for a lot of reasons, but most of all, it let the player do things that they would normally not be able to do, but the character they are playing can. So in that sense, yes, mini games, that everyone can do easily, replacing a symbolic skill system = a bad idea in any rpg.

Now, having said all that, I know that EM is not interested in my opinion and is going to go ahead with replacing every aspect of a skill system anyway. So the best thing I can hope for now is a Thief 3 style mini game for picking locks with maybe some new features added to it.

[Viktoria]

Then I insist you try to dig something up on your visit to Eidos Montréal. :D

Rene did comment a while back that the hacking system was 'really freakin' awesome'... or something along those lines. :D

[Ashpolt]

^^

http://jul.rustedlogic.net/images/facepalm.jpg

You really don't get the idea that his job is to tell us how awesome the game is, do you? If he came in here and said "this game feature is rubbish" (which hopefully he won't) then that would actually tell us something, but Rene saying "x is great" is worth pretty much nothing.

[Viktoria]

That is your opinion, but it certainly isn't mine. :p
Don't worry, I do 'get' what the job is... but that is not an issue with me.
Rene could have said 'its really good' or 'it works fine'... but the fact that he said 'its freakin' awesome' (or something close to that) makes me believe it actually is pretty awesome. :cool:
If it isn't, we'll find out in good time... but for now I prefer to give Rene (and not general pessimism) the benefit of the doubt. :)

[WhatsHisFace]

That is your opinion, but it certainly isn't mine. :p
Don't worry, I do 'get' what the job is... but that is not an issue with me.
Rene could have said 'its really good' or 'it works fine'... but the fact that he said 'its freakin' awesome' (or something close to that) makes me believe it actually is pretty awesome. :cool:
If it isn't, we'll find out in good time... but for now I prefer to give Rene (and not general pessimism) the benefit of the doubt. :)

http://jul.rustedlogic.net/images/facepalm.jpg

[Ninjerk]

Can I do that, too?

[WhatsHisFace]

As soon as something goes over MyImmortal's head again.

[Viktoria]

LOL, nothing goes over my head. I'm just not a great fan of listening to prophesies of doom 'n' gloom. :p
Pessimism is a pointless trait to me, but I realise we're all different. ;)

[Ashpolt]

I don't think you understand the difference between being pessimistic and not being optimistic. Pessimism is looking for the bad: I'm simply not willing to accept a positive opinion from someone who's being paid to spread a positive opinion. I'm staying perfectly neutral here until I have something to form my own opinion from - something you advocate so strongly in other topics. You, on the other hand, are choosing to to take the word of someone who is essentially a PR man, and as such is never going to say anything other than positive things about the game - that's not just optimism, that's blind optimism.

Note that I'm not saying anything against Rene here - he's got his job, his does it well, and he is an asset to Eidos as far as I'm concerned - but the fact that he says "this is great" means nothing, because he has to say it.

[Viktoria]

I don't think you understand the difference between being pessimistic and not being optimistic. Pessimism is looking for the bad: I'm simply not willing to accept a positive opinion from someone who's being paid to spread a positive opinion. I'm staying perfectly neutral here until I have something to form my own opinion from - something you advocate so strongly in other topics. You, on the other hand, are choosing to to take the word of someone who is essentially a PR man, and as such is never going to say anything other than positive things about the game - that's not just optimism, that's blind optimism.

Note that I'm not saying anything against Rene here - he's got his job, his does it well, and he is an asset to Eidos as far as I'm concerned - but the fact that he says "this is great" means nothing, because he has to say it.

I understand the difference... but don't get confused with what I'm saying.
Yes absolutely. I have always agreed that it is better to be neutral when we don't have answers either way. Definitely. You just can't go wrong then and hopefully less people want to argue with you over the silliest of points (though its never a guarantee, is it..? ;) ).
But, if we don't want to be neutral then we obviously must opt for either negative or positive. Which is what you and I have done.

Therefore my previous statement stands - I prefer to go for the positive rather than the negative and give Rene the benefit of the doubt.
This is not "blind optimism" - its just being generally positive, lol.
Now, you can knock it as much as you like but the only other option (apart from being neutral) you are actually giving is to choose to be negative.
So, its a no, thank you from me.... :rasp:

Now lets leave it at that, huh? There is no point arguing over someones opinion. :)
Freedom of choice and all that...

[PlasmaSnake101]

I'm optimistic about getting back on track here.

The "I want it like DX1" crowd can't be won over. Hacking and lock picking have been criticised in the past for being so simplistic.

"Such instances are essentially noninteractive", he wrote. "You simply stand there and spend a particular quantity of electronic picks or modules until the door opens or the security goes down."[19] Kasavin made similar complaints about the hacking interface, noting that, "Even with basic hacking skills, you'll still be able to bypass the encryption and password protection ... by pressing the 'hack' button and waiting a few seconds."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_Ex#Role-playing_elements

It only makes sense they would try to get around it by implementing some kind of activity, rather than leaving this "problem" unanswered.

I don't really care, I'm open to some change and this looks like a health development. It sounds interesting, and I'm sure I'll use skills and augs towards it if I don't thin it's enjoyable.

[Viktoria]

I'm optimistic about getting back on track here.


Yes, thank you. :cool:
From now on, if I see any silly discussion going on (in any thread) that question any person's "opinion" rather than the topic (see thread title for a reminder), I'm deleting it. That includes silly images too (take note people... you know who you are ;) ). I can take it myself but I can see that other people are getting frustrated with all this pointless bickering... so its time to put my foot down. No more. :p
Now, you have received my order, agents. Be sure to act upon it.
Thank you and I salute you all. :wave:

[Romeo]

While he may not come out here and say "Feature X is rubbish", Rene, as well as most other community managers, have no problem saying "We'd like to have done it another way, but couldn't" or "We wish we had that feature, maybe next time". Besides, this is one of the changes I'm in favor of. As people before me have said, hacking in the original was way too simple. So much so it was boring. Anything to help break up the monotomy of it is welcome in my opinion. :)

[TrickyVein]

Dunno if its been mentioned (too much to READ dagnamnit) but I was particularly impressed by the computer hacking in Fallout 3. That was pretty challenging, and pretty fun. Granted, if you were clever you would just log out the third time instead of risking losing access on the fourth, but the actual process itself was no light-weight affair.

[K^2]

Yeah, but in DX it would get so old it isn't even funny.

[Ashpolt]

While he may not come out here and say "Feature X is rubbish", Rene, as well as most other community managers, have no problem saying "We'd like to have done it another way, but couldn't" or "We wish we had that feature, maybe next time". Besides, this is one of the changes I'm in favor of. As people before me have said, hacking in the original was way too simple. So much so it was boring. Anything to help break up the monotomy of it is welcome in my opinion. :)

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the hacking's going to be bad at all - we know virtually nothing about it yet , so I'm not willing to make a judgement - I just don't think the fact that Rene says it's going to be great means it's 100% going to be great. You're right that community managers can say "I'd've liked to have done it that way" - but only when they haven't put something in. In this case, the team have introduced something new, and something more complex, so Rene has to say it's going to be great.

....And to finish on a positive note, for all we know it may be great! I'm staying neutral on this one until we see more of it.

[FrankCSIS]

It only makes sense they would try to get around it by implementing some kind of activity, rather than leaving this "problem" unanswered.

I'm glad for any form of improvement, and curious as to what exactly they have implemented here. There is, again, so little to go by it's impossible to form an opinion.

I don't consider, however, mini-games like Bioshock, Fallout 3 or Oblivion to be an improvement over the old lockpick/hack system. To me they are just a different kind of problem. I would very much like something organic, that varies from one situation to another. Once I've figured out the logic of one lock or computer security, I'm not interested in doing it over and over again every time I need to. At this point you might as well just press the hack button and wait. At least there was a sense of suspense to it.

[GmanPro]

I really just want a game that is more complex than Fable or Gears of War. Actually, I'd really like it if DX3 was more complicated than DX1. I don't want anything to be trimmed back or streamlined in an attempt to make it more efficient and draw a bigger crowd etc. I was hoping that DX3 was going to be this game but I guess not. Don't get me wrong though, I'm still looking forward to it and I'm sure it will be great in it's own right.

Maybe one day some game company will have the balls to make such a game. I won't hold my breath...

[Romeo]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the hacking's going to be bad at all - we know virtually nothing about it yet , so I'm not willing to make a judgement - I just don't think the fact that Rene says it's going to be great means it's 100% going to be great. You're right that community managers can say "I'd've liked to have done it that way" - but only when they haven't put something in. In this case, the team have introduced something new, and something more complex, so Rene has to say it's going to be great.

....And to finish on a positive note, for all we know it may be great! I'm staying neutral on this one until we see more of it.
Oh, no, I'm 100% with you on this one. Common sense tells you not to jump on a bandwagon when you haven't had a chance to sit down with it's concept, of course. The comment was more directed at the fact you say it's Rene's job to say everything Eidos does is great. I know as a fact there are certain things he isn't too gung-ho about, and you can see it about how he talks about them, as MyImmortal said. ;)

[Viktoria]

Oh, no, I'm 100% with you on this one. Common sense tells you not to jump on a bandwagon when you haven't had a chance to sit down with it's concept, of course. The comment was more directed at the fact you say it's Rene's job to say everything Eidos does is great. I know as a fact there are certain things he isn't too gung-ho about, and you can see it about how he talks about them, as MyImmortal said. ;)

Exactly my point. :cool:

[WhatsHisFace]

Maybe one day some game company will have the balls to make such a game. I won't hold my breath...
While it's not 100% what you're looking for here, you should give S.T.A.L.K.E.R. a try.

[GmanPro]

I beat it, twice. The ending was frustrating. It's like they threw all of the subtlety that was making it great out of the window. I don't know how many people I killed in the last 30 minutes of that game, but it must have been over 9000. The stealth was broken beyond belief also. It was like a free form BioShock without plasmids. Fun, but yeah, not 100%. More like 25%.

[WhatsHisFace]

I beat it, twice. The ending was frustrating. It's like they threw all of the subtlety that was making it great out of the window. I don't know how many people I killed in the last 30 minutes of that game, but it must have been over 9000. The stealth was broken beyond belief also. It was like a free form BioShock without plasmids. Fun, but yeah, not 100%. More like 25%.
...At least it was a complex game. :(

I have had a lot of fun with S.T.A.L.K.E.R. I haven't completed it yet, but it certainly makes it's an impression as a shooter that confidently goes forward without trying to have it's target audience be "everyone".

I support that attitude.

[GmanPro]

An ideal game for me is something like Morrowind + Deus Ex + Torment. Take all of the best elements from each game to create a sort of pseudo free roam cyberpunk first person rpg. Now THAT'S a game I'd like to see.

[Ninjerk]

Dunno if its been mentioned (too much to READ dagnamnit) but I was particularly impressed by the computer hacking in Fallout 3. That was pretty challenging, and pretty fun. Granted, if you were clever you would just log out the third time instead of risking losing access on the fourth, but the actual process itself was no light-weight affair.

The system by itself was pretty good, I agree. However, it was particularly immersion breaking. When I actually started raising whatever skill governed hacking (science?), I found it a bit absurd that adding only one letter to a the puzzle would make the concept altogether impossible for my character to grasp unless my skill was 2 points higher.

While the minigame itself was fun, I feel it was a poor compromise between a player-skill activity and character-skill activity. It was particularly immersion breaking for me, and I think that is its biggest fault. Whatever the DX3 hacking system is, it has to stay engaging (as I believe FO3's hacking system accomplished) and it has to make sense.

[teknikal-vision]

Just bringing up the timeout factor on hacking again.

A lot a people were annoyed by it in the first game -me included. It was extremely frustrating, especially when you were desperately trying to sift through dozens of emails for that vital passcode or account details. And when you finally found the email you were looking for, you never had enough time to remember the codes and relevant details.

But I will sort of miss it 'cause it added a lot of tension to the experience.

However, The Nameless Mod provided the most amazingly ingenious solution to this problem. You are able to print out emails from the computer to the nearest network printer, if one is available. These printed emails can be picked up and added to your note log. So as soon as I found the email I was looking for I can quickly print it, log out and read the details once I've picked up the printed document.

I love this. It's so clever and obvious, and it adds another level of interactive realism in the game world. It's also kind of fun having to hunt down the relevant printer, 'cause sometimes it's not in the same room as the pc you just hacked.

I guess another option would be to have the option to transmit any relevant email to your internal note log. A little more hi-tech, but it would also make sense.

I hope DX3 makes the world as interactive as possible. Most game worlds are too static. Printers should work. Drawers should open. Taps and toilets should work too. XD

[Necros]

I guess another option would be to have the option to transmit any relevant email to your internal note log. A little more hi-tech, but it would also make sense.
:thumbsup: Yes, that would make more sense in a DX game than just printing out stuff. Especially if you can grab files and whatnot too. And I think it will work a bit like this because we will have an apartment where we can acces files. So maybe we use the hacking aug, download the files and then later at home or at a safe place we can check them.

[SwDx3]

Hello everyone. I've just joined the forums
but have been lurking in DX's shadows ever since it's inception.

One thing about hacking and overall interaction in DX:
In dx1 , the system was complex and deep in both content
(images, maps, quotes, notes, opinions, history background the works)
and operation (hacking, entering codes, username, special options what not).
I.S. (rip) over-simplified it in IW, resulting in a bare-bones version of
deus ex, with a lot of wasted potential for rich story and setting,
both through objectives and information as well as the means to
collect, review and use them.
Now, you can all call me old fashioned or just nuts,
but DX's experience (and every other immersive game's) stems from
every part of the game's infrastructure-including the means to uncover
the game's plot, story and universe via conversation, computing, datacubes
eavesdropping and all the other methods we employed in that unique game.

Therefore, in my opinion, if the DV team has hopes to make DX3 as good
as it's grandfather, they should create a complex game,
with complex interaction rather then recreate IW's stripped, detached UI.

I hope my words will have helped.
and good luck in your quest to create DX's next great sequel.

[JCD]

Welcome to the forums :cool:

You are right indeed, hacking was OVER-simplified in IW, I want it back as it was in DX or at least, as it is in VTMB. I want to type, to check the datacubes, to read the hacked emails and rty to memorise stuff in order to write them down in my notes. I loved DX's notes, in Oblivion I had to buy a whole new notepad in order to write down all the dungeons I had explored (after the mods of course, there is no real purpose of searching them all in the Vanilla :()

Anyway, we want an interface that will be very close to DX and far away from IW. IF necessary, since PC Gamers are used to waiting, make a console version and a PC version, adding more complexity in ours :D

[Blade_hunter]

I prefer to say the DX interface is detailed, than complex, because I don't think it's so complex at all, for me it was easy to understand, easy to use and well made
Also the amount of informations give us what we need know
It needs some enhancements like get access to some informations when we use ATMs or computers for example

The amount of details give it a complex feel, but I think detailed is the word.
Detailed and Easy to understand

I don't know if somebody would think that but I think the interface was well made because it was easy to understand

I talk about the DX 1 interface of course

[The widow's son]

Wouldn't it be cool if you could place a device on a terminal you wanted to hack, which would allow you to retreat to a hidden location and hack it remotely ? This would allow you to avoid having to look around for guards and breaking your hacking attempt if guards do appear.

Perhaps the penalty for this luxury would be increased difficulty, or only limited time access once you are logged in.

Hmmm actually this kind of sounds like the remote hacking of splintercell chaos theory, but you get the idea :)

[GmanPro]

That reminds me: I used run off to some dark corner after pressing the use key on those panels. They always take a few seconds to open up, giving you just enough time to get away :D I also used to crouch under desks and lean out just enough to see the computer terminal above me highlight, then when I use it, JC would stop leaning and get back under the desk while I read the contents in safety.

[Aznegreol]

Hi all, my first blog post ever ... so be gentle.

My addiction in games has always been detail. When i first played DX1 it opened a whole new chapter in my mind of what first person shooter could actually be .. from then on my mind hasn't stop churning out doodles on scrap pieces of paper regarding the infinite possibilities of enhancing game play.

Concerning Hacking.

The tense moment of having to 'hack' whilst impending doom is around the corner, looking for possible hiding/escaping places, knowing that each second has gained value, possibly realizing that there is a cmd lock function to the door which will buy you a small amount of time you need to find the right file, possibly activating a camera to see if your adversary is near ... moments like this for me, are for lack of a better word awesome.

For me there is never enough detail, if i had it my way i would included: (understanding the console limitation)
- Having to learn actual abbreviated commands like (opndr / act / cmd turr01 sfty 0 / scn ... ...)
- Having to go through lists of profiles to match a picture that you were given by an NPC
- Playing games like 'master mind' to crack certain areas (used in Fallout 3)
- learning a NPCs cellphone number for triangular tracking system.
- getting 3D schematic of the building to understand which door is which, and how to get about etc.
- Using commands to discovery what can actually be done on the computer - i have always thought that a search function should fire up when one hacks, and that easy commands should come up quickly and harder ones take time dependent on ones hacking skill.
- uploading a virus that temporarily disables everything (give the IT guy something to do) most likely setting off an alarm or something.
- i could go on for days

This all in my mind should also then relate directly to manipulating electronics. (disabling the alarm button has always be one of my favorite "Just you and me buddy" always loved the stealth approach )

but more so the ability to plug into circuits with a wrist computer or booby trapping a button/terminal (i like the idea of an electric stun kinda trap)

i also believe that when one sends a rocket hurtling into a room with glee, he should have to pay for his actions by having to fix the broken keypads etc that got caught in the mayhem.

i feel i am going off topic so i'll stop here ... i will always vote Detail, in every aspect :)

[dixieflatline]

A fantasy of mine would be that EM buys the source code of the game Uplink off of Introversion, and uses a modified form of that work the hacking game.

That be so cool.

BTW If you never heard of Uplink it is probably the best hacking computer game ever made.

[-=fox=-]

You're not the first who came up with this idea and I think it could be interesting (I have my doubts because of pacing issues) I am pretty sure that even amongst "hardcore gamers" *cringe*, there's quite a number of people who wouldn't want to lern how to play Uplink before they'd be able to do some occasional email account hacks. Uplink is a cool game but it wouldn't be nearly as good if it was boiled down enough to fit into a much bigger game.

The ArmA in Cyberspace-approach just isn't DX anymore.

[Absentia]

Well I guess it wouldn't be an exact copy of Uplink by any means, just the idea of running different applications to serve different purposes, with more useful applications being added each time you upgrade your hacking augmentation. At least that way it won't just boot you out when you try and hack something that's too advanced, you'll just see that it has a security measure that you can't bypass.
Generally if they are to take anything from Uplink, I'd want it to be the GUI and things like inputting codes or changing values in data manually (Maybe something like a binary value or a basic logic gate for a control of a door) - Not complex, but enough so the game isnt masking it via a minigame. Even though the DX system was boring, the important thing is that you were able to always see how the computer system looked, whereas playing a minigame doesn't allow that and is almost like an elaborate metaphor

[dixieflatline]

I think something almost as complex as Uplink could work for the game because hacking isn't totally necessary in Deus Ex, so it wouldn't scare off more casual gamers / gamers with less patience. Pretty much every situation has alternate ways of being accomplished so only those people that find hacking really interesting would spend time trying to learn it, and get into it. Those who didn't have patience for that kind of thing would be happy just doing the brute force or stealth option, and would be happy about that.

I'm don't seriously have even a shadow of a hope that EM would make such an intricate hacking subgame for Deus Ex. It's more just in my fantasy-land game-paradise ideal world I'd love Deus Ex 3 to have a hacking game that was as complex as something like Uplink, or as hardcore as the console-command hacking game like BS Hacker (link http://www.gamedujour.com/25-bs-hacker ). Heck maybe the Deus EX 3 SDK will be released with some serious tools in it, and modders will be able to pimp out Deus Ex 3 with expanded hacking options and make like one of the best games of all time with it :)

More realistically, I was a fan of Fallout 3's hacking mini-game, and have sincere optimism about the hacking mini-game EM will make for the game.

I also imagine that you'll have the 'auto-hacking' option of using like disposable hacking multi-tools, or the 'manual' mini-game mode which you use your hacking skill for.

Here's my public prediction for what the hacking mini-game will be like : we know it is sort of RTS like, so imagine the players will have 3 or 4 'programs' (probably named as 'virusus' ) that sort of function like combat units in a regular RTS. Each computer system will have 3 or 4 types of 'defenses', and each program is better suited for taking out each different type of defense. So the player will have a time limit and have to deploy his programs in the right sequence or combinations in order to successfully hack the computer system. Visually this will look like a old school RTS (like Warcraft II ) but instead of units on terrain, it will be visual representations of data...sort of attacking each other. Obstacles in the 'cyber-terrain / cyber-landscape' will randomize the battles and keep things interesting.

If I'm 100% right about this, E-M please hire me as a internship junior designer for your game :) :) :)

[Irate Iguana]

Why are people so opposed to just a simple stat check and time limit such as Deus Ex? Why must it be a minigame? Most minigames, no matter how fun, tend to become boring after more than three times. They become chores you need to do in order for the fun to progress.

What I liked about the way that DX handled it was that there was a sense of danger in certain situations. All you could do was hope that you could break the computer fast enough so that you could be away by the time the guard came. With a minigame this situation gets to randomized that they will have to stop time in order for you to play the game. You lose a sense of danger.

Still, since we know almost nothing regarding the minigame in DX3 my fears might be exaggerated. Then again I can't think of a single minigame I really enjoyed.

[GmanPro]

I can think of a few that I thoroughly loved. Pazaak and swoop racing (kotor), Dice Poker (The Witcher). There were a few good ones from the Fable games (and a lot of really bad ones).

[Irate Iguana]

Okay, I'm going to have to give props to Pazaak. I liked that game. It was also more of an optional minigame not really connected to the game. All quests involving Pazaak can be done without ever playing it.

[GmanPro]

Ok, well technically you can avoid hacking altogether and find other ways to go about your task. But I know what you mean.

[Absentia]

If you want another bad example of a hacking minigame take the "decryption" game in Mass Effect. It's basically a circular Frogger, only most of it seems to rely mostly on luck (if you happen to get a big empty pathway to where you need to go then you're simply laughing). I find it's much easier just to spend the 20 omni-gel because you seem to acquire so much from continually picking up the same weapons/upgrades over and over again that you already have 3+ duplicates of...but that's another story

[LatwPIAT]

Anyone here play Iji, a great platformer made a few years back? It had a simple hacking minigame based around navigating a field with randomly generated impassable spots, making it basically a form of turn-based Snake. The more difficult the security system, the larger the field was and the more impassable spots were abound. The more powerful the player became at hacking, the more time they got to navigate the field. It gave hacking a sense of urgency while managing to stay simple.