Speed (IE Badass feel) [Archive]

Dead-Eye

01-26-2009, 04:08 AM

So I played Deus Ex one last time... it finally got boring. However there was a few things that I learned about gameplay in Deus ex that I really would like to see fixed in the 3ed installment and I hope they already implemented. All of which have to do with improved speed of action which is the only thing that has improved in the gaming world after Deus Ex was made.

First the climbing system sucked allot. Apparently your too out of shape to jump through a window so you need to find a small box to help you do it. That makes total sense because your a Nano augmented super agent with pure god juice coursing through your body. It's scary to say that IW had a good climbing system because most everything about that game sucked.

Next passive augmentation. Another good idea out of IW overshadowed by it's sure sucktastica. I really don't care that it's out of cannon please keep them. I'm way to lazy to activate an aug every time I need to walk silently and with the silent walk aug it's completely useless unless you already know where the enemies are; IE you have already played the game once.

Finally the games speed in combat. With playing Deus Ex for maybe the last time I can't help but notice that the game's combat was way too ugly and the mechanics were too blocky. Enemy AI sucked but that was not the only thing wrong with combat. Every time I wonted to activate a Aug I had to pause the game or try and hit the right keyboard shortcut. Some Augs should come on automatically when triggered. (IE, Ballistic Protection, EMP shield, Aggressive Defense System, etc) Really whats the point of having the Aggressive Defense System if your walking along at Vandenberg and one of the robots notices you shoots a rocket and you blow up before you even realize it was attacking?

These things should be addressed.

facepalm

01-26-2009, 04:45 AM

one of the robots notices you shoots a rocket and you blow up before you even realize it was attacking?

"L2P noob" ;)

I'd prefer a system that allowed me to bind multiple augmentations to a single hotkey, instead of having the game babysitting me by auto-activating the appropriate augs whenever it thinks I'm in a sticky situation. If I stumble into a tough situation, I want to be able to just activate my ballistic protection, aggressive defense system and regeneration with the press of a button. I do not want the game to make these decisions for me.

I'm in agreement with everything else you said though.

El_Bel

01-26-2009, 05:18 AM

Next passive augmentation. Another good idea out of IW overshadowed by it's sure sucktastica. I really don't care that it's out of cannon please keep them. I'm way to lazy to activate an aug every time I need to walk silently and with the silent walk aug it's completely useless unless you already know where the enemies are; IE you have already played the game once.

Finally the games speed in combat. With playing Deus Ex for maybe the last time I can't help but notice that the game's combat was way too ugly and the mechanics were too blocky. Enemy AI sucked but that was not the only thing wrong with combat. Every time I wonted to activate a Aug I had to pause the game or try and hit the right keyboard shortcut. Some Augs should come on automatically when triggered. (IE, Ballistic Protection, EMP shield, Aggressive Defense System, etc) Really whats the point of having the Aggressive Defense System if your walking along at Vandenberg and one of the robots notices you shoots a rocket and you blow up before you even realize it was attacking?

These things should be addressed.

You sir need this.

http://yukichigai.googlepages.com/shifter

spm1138

01-26-2009, 02:16 PM

Hah.

I'm torn because on one hand I agree with some of what you're saying.

OTOH I think you were doing it wrong in DX :D

The trick is to sneak and peek before you decide to act.

Jerion

01-27-2009, 12:02 AM

If a bot is shooting a rocket at you at Vandenberg, and you aren't aware of it or don't already have ADS on, then something is very wrong with you. :p

Many of the issues attributed to poor combat and movement, at least in comparison to current games, can be chalked up to the relative simplicity of game mechanics in 2000. Back then, movement a la Mirror's Edge and the advanced combat you see in games like CoD 4 were little more than distant dreams. The AI was decent for back then, but many games today (not all, mind you) squash it. Same thing for graphics.

Deus Ex was a bloody masterpiece, and still is, but where it shines is not in the sophistication of the individual elements, but how it binds them together.

I agree that many details need to be updated for DX 3. As long as the story melds into the DX universe, and the feel of the game is distinctly DX, I'm happy. :)

Dead-Eye

01-27-2009, 05:29 PM

As far as FPS' go F.E.A.R had the best AI I have ever seen. They would jump through windows, set up ambushes and take cover when needed. It also seemed like they had some kind of team cooperation going on.

Still I think the biggest thing that IW got right was passive and reactive augmentations. Auto Regen would only come on when you took damage and you could turn it off to save BE. Augmented strength was always on along with silent walk. It just seems to me that if they bring back ADS, Ballistic protection and EMP shield they should make them reactive augmentations so you can keep them on all the time without worrying about draining your BE levels.

I recall that one of the main ideas Warren had that sparked Deus Ex is that after he finished Thief he had a problem with the game in that the game would progressively get harder but the player would not progressively get more "Badass" as they encountered the new challenges. As such the player needed to use their skill of sneaking to complete the game and couldn't any other way. Deus Ex was his answer to fix that by making the player character get more skills and Augs to meet the challenges the game would give off later on without falling back on sneaking; it might be why the first level in Deus Ex is the hardest because your just way too weak.

Spiffmeister

01-30-2009, 07:59 AM

100% agree. Having to activate the power recuperation thingo was annoying :mad: .

Speaking of F.E.A.R, I played the F.E.A.R 2 Demo and I really like the way you can jump over cover in it, it's a quick, fluid motion, that takes (or seems to take) a lot less time then CoD4s way.

Also if the game is going to have a 3rd person cover taking sort of thing in it. A sort of Dynamic system would be nice, where if the cover is low, AJ will duck enough so that I'm not sticking over or around it. rather then crouching and having my head clearly in the enemy's LoS.

Jellybelly

01-30-2009, 01:32 PM

You incompetents are the reason games are being dumbed down nowadays.

WhatsHisFace

02-11-2009, 07:04 PM

I'm glad I stumbled onto this.

I wish Eidos Montreal had, and hired him as Project Lead.

Blade_hunter

02-11-2009, 07:04 PM

Most modern games from monolith got great AIs FEAR wasn't the first one even if the AI reached a great point

hem dazon 90

02-15-2009, 10:27 PM

You incompetents are the reason games are being dumbed down nowadays.

you sir are a jerk

JC_Denton

03-03-2009, 04:46 AM

Jerion

03-03-2009, 05:18 AM

Also, this entire story is actually a fabrication.

Source?

Jerion

03-03-2009, 05:29 AM

Really? You want me to prove that a story Dead-Eye made up did not happen? Prove a negative? :confused: :lol:

I want you to prove you know it's made up. Don't overthink it, smartass. :D

Edit: Go find what warren has said that contradicts it.

Jerion

03-03-2009, 06:08 AM

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/warrens2

See how the inspiration of Deus Ex doesnt mention Thief anywhere?

And I'm not being a smart ass, it really is impossible to prove a negative. It just is. Thats why we have 'burden of proof' and such. It'd be like me saying "alright Mr. K, prove that you aren't a murderous child killer who the police just haven't found yet!". You can't, because its an asinine request. You can't prove a negative. Dead-Eyes story just reeks of made up BS. Did you actually read it? There is no way anyone with any intelligence believes that nonsense.

Fair, it doesn't mention Thief anywhere.

But dude, chill out. Now.

WhatsHisFace

03-03-2009, 06:23 AM

I want you to prove you know it's made up. Don't overthink it, smartass. :D

Edit: Go find what warren has said that contradicts it.

The burden of proof is on Dead-Eye, and it's true that he just made it all up. Look at the (now) publicized Deus Ex design document.

Dead-Eye seems to think that Deus Ex is boring, because he has the attention span of a goldfish with ADHD. As such, he just shouldn't play Deus Ex, instead of demanding the developer dampen the Deus Ex experience to cater to his pitiful needs. Leave him to play Serious Sam or Painkiller, because that's ultimately what he wants.

Jerion

03-03-2009, 06:50 AM

Carlo, Thin Ice.

I'm not in a mood to play around this morning.

gamer0004

03-03-2009, 07:15 AM

Is that a threat?

facepalm

03-03-2009, 12:22 PM

You asked someone to prove a negative and looked dumb over it.

it really is impossible to prove a negative. It just is.

You want me to prove that a story Dead-Eye made up did not happen? Prove a negative?

A common misconception of logic. Negatives can be proven, and it's easy too.

facepalm

03-03-2009, 12:30 PM

I don't have a driver's license. :rasp:

Win.

WhatsHisFace

03-03-2009, 12:43 PM

Can we officially change the thread title to "Speed (IE this game sucks feel)" please?

facepalm

03-03-2009, 12:52 PM

Yes, I know exactly where you are coming from, the "burden of proof" is a convenient system to ensure that debates actually go somewhere. But when you stated the same and somewhat erroneous claim about proving negatives three times as indisputable, commonly accepted fact, I couldn't help myself from replying.

And btw, if I was driving without a license, and hit somebody's car, the police could certainly provide the necessary papers proving that I did it. But alas, such papers do not exist, so it is reasonable to assume that I haven't hit anybody's car today. ;)

WhatsHisFace

03-03-2009, 12:55 PM

so it is reasonable to assume that I haven't hit anybody's car today. ;)As far as you know. You may have sleep-walked, stolen a car, hit a car, and sleep-walked back to your bed none the wiser. Devil's advocate.

Some guy actually murdered his family one night while sleepwalking. I bet he was shocked when he woke up the next morning.

facepalm

03-03-2009, 12:58 PM

If that happened, I'd probably be in the six o'clock news.

As far as you know. You may have sleep-walked, stolen a car, hit a car, and sleep-walked back to your bed none the wiser. Devil's advocate.

And thus, we have reached the point of absurdity. GG I guess. :nut:

Fig89

03-04-2009, 01:13 PM

Absurdity of your proposition, perhaps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

If you think you actually can prove a negative, I think such a philosophical endeavor would actually be somewhat relevant, given the numerous philosophical tie ins that DX1 was literally made of.

The empiricist would say you can only be sure of things as you interpret them through your senses, and then slowly, gradually establish the truth of propositions based on sensible evidence.

Descartes would trust only in reason (as opposed to senses), but would really only be able to prove that he did exist as a thinking substance, so that won't really get us anywhere.

Kant says that reason is the faculty we use to organize that which we experience through our senses, telling us that these are the ONLY things we can actually perceive and comprehend. Therefore 'truth' can only be established via our analysis of our sensible interpretation of the world with our reason. So we end back at the empirical view point for determining truths about non-thinking things (the outside world).

Jerion

03-04-2009, 01:41 PM

"game's combat was way too ugly and the mechanics were too blocky"

I'd love to hear a definition of "blocky mechanics".

:scratch:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/Picture3-3.png

Mindmute

03-04-2009, 01:46 PM

:scratch:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t191/Zeoman1001/Picture3-3.png

You made my lass spill her coffee and she glanced at the screen and broke out laughing...

facepalm

03-05-2009, 08:34 AM

*snip*

Negative assertions are easily proven given a manageable frame. Most day-to-day dilemmas, such as the car accident example used before, exist within a limited "domain", therefore it is easy to examine all the relevant variables and come to a probable conclusion.

In CarloGervasi's case, the domain is way too broad - literally the whole internet - so it is unreasonable to assume he would have the resources to disprove Dead-Eye's story. But it's not impossible, at least in theory, for him to scrounge every scrap of relevant information from the internet and prove his claim that Dead-Eye is lying. This is not a case of "it's impossible to do", but rather "I can't be bothered to do it".

Negatives have been proven since the dawn of man, or does anyone disagree with Galileo's proof that the Earth is not the center of the universe?

There's really nothing magical about it, it's just the flipside of the coin.

Here's some more food (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html) for (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/515075/proving_a_negative_is_it_really_impossible.html) thought. (http://scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts/2008/06/you_can_prove_a_negative.php)

Fig89

03-05-2009, 02:27 PM

All of the internet or all of all possible human thought is not a manageable human frame.

I understand that you can assert a negative or a lack of a quality in a thing that is taken to exist, but you can't assert negativity about the existence of that thing (be it representable in the tangible world or only in our reasoning minds), because you would have to go through the entirety of all ... everything.

So then it stands to reason to say at least that attempting negative proofs are useless in almost all scenarios regarding sources of information.

Interesting nonetheless.

El_Bel

03-05-2009, 02:30 PM

A common misconception of logic. Negatives can be proven, and it's easy too.

Prove that there is no god and i will give you 9999999999999$.

Fig89

03-05-2009, 02:31 PM

The Christian God is easily disproven because there are too many inconsistencies and times where God would have to be contradictory to itself.

A more general 'God' is a different subject, but I basically side with Kant on this one; if there is 'God' it's something we can't experience with our senses. Therefore, we can't prove it or disprove it.

Fig89

03-05-2009, 02:36 PM

I'm too sick (got the flu) to go to my English class that is REALLY trying to be a philosophy class, so I'm inflicting all my pent up attempts at philosophy upon the DX3 community.

So who wants to help me start the NSF?

Fig89

03-05-2009, 02:39 PM

Well I don't. BUT I DO HAVE BADASS FEEL

(there the thread is back on topic now right)

El_Bel

03-05-2009, 04:41 PM

You will soon have your chance to start NSF whether you like it or not. There is a civil war coming around the world. Lets hope for the good of the world that you will not be afraid to act.

Defend your constitution. Defend freedom.

Freedom is everything. Dont just believe in freedom. Protect it.

I am too tired to explain.

Ps: Fak Alex Jones.

Edit: Whats the point about arguing about how EM is going to dumb down a perfect IP? Like they are going to hear us. Our freedoms are taken and we argue about Regenerating health. I say fak em. Let them do it.

But dear God. We are arguing about having the freedom to make 3d person in a video game optional and we are not yelling for the freedoms in real life that they have taken from us. What am i trying to say? Wish i knew..

FrankCSIS

03-05-2009, 04:49 PM

I've been waiting for a zombie invasion for quite some time, but this prophetic civil war you promise would be the next best thing.

For the thread's sake, freedom is badass.

El_Bel

03-05-2009, 05:08 PM

But it has already started. Its just that is invisible. Shadows and bureaucrats.

FrankCSIS

03-05-2009, 05:12 PM

This is taking an unexpected turn, but I already took a lot of crap in a previous thread here depicting the underlying dangers of democracy. You need not convince me ;)

El_Bel

03-05-2009, 05:30 PM

Thats good!!

What worries me is that they will not give us a reason to fight. They will not do anything stupid like command us to surrender all our weapons, like it happened in Deus Ex and NSF was born.

No they will slowly pass bills that makes buying a weapon almost impossible and they will let our weapons rust. And that will happen so slowly that no one will move. And that is only one of the things that they can do.

I am afraid we will wake up a morning with no freedoms left and we will not know it.

What i hope is that they will get stupid. That they will command something like a martial law. That will wake people up.

Maybe some Generals will remember then their oath to protect the constitution against all enemies, even domestic ones. And with the help of some people, to make their stand.

But they will be called terrorists. They will be opposed to the official government. The government elected by the people! Just like the freedom fighters in Iraq.

:(

Fig89

03-05-2009, 06:43 PM

In case nobody knew, squalnomie is actually a real place, just with the syllables slightly transposed. Snoqualmie, WA is about a 30 minute drive from where I am.

Allow me to bastardize 1984.

"Under the spreading chestnut tree,
It all began at Squalnomie..."

Gun and ammo sales have been through the roof lately, everybody thinks Obama is a gun-grabber. And given that he's not repudiating any of the executive power Bush was granted or granted himself, I'd say it won't be long now. Just watch and see what happens when the economy REALLY explodes. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Jerion

03-06-2009, 12:32 AM

I've been waiting for a zombie invasion for quite some time, but this prophetic civil war you promise would be the next best thing.

For the thread's sake, freedom is badass.

http://store.sluggy.com/media/zhoas-preview.gif
And yes, I am getting that shirt.

In case nobody knew, squalnomie is actually a real place, just with the syllables slightly transposed. Snoqualmie, WA is about a 30 minute drive from where I am.

Allow me to bastardize 1984.

"Under the spreading chestnut tree,
It all began at Squalnomie..."

Gun and ammo sales have been through the roof lately, everybody thinks Obama is a gun-grabber. And given that he's not repudiating any of the executive power Bush was granted or granted himself, I'd say it won't be long now. Just watch and see what happens when the economy REALLY explodes. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

I should start working on my aim again. I used to be a pretty good shot with a .22. You never know when said uprising will happen- and when it does I want be able to defend me and mine if I have to.