Research on BS:M with M0n3y and VTROOPER!!

[M0n3y]

hey , me and VTROOPER did some research about what to use on what.

First we started on Operation MI:

Vtrooper used a single B-17 on the carriers with different payload , these are the results :
ALL RESULTS ARE WITH DAMAGE CONTROL DISABLED!!

on Akagi(sorry Akagi!:D) with 450P : not much , about less than 1/10th

on Soryu with 200P : Almost no damage

and on Zuiho with 150P : same as Soryu


Now some torpedo runs :

a single Avenger on Hiryu : 1/10 damage

1 PT boat with 4 launched torpedoe's on Zuiho : over half damage and dangerous falling to her port side

then i used a single torpedo on hornet : 1/10th damage

now i did a Kamikaze attack on a...PT boat : 1/4 damage



Strafing :

Vtrooper strafing to kill AA guns on Soryu with 9 fighters. To make it more realistic , I enabled Free fire.
results : 5 AA guns destroyed

I was strafing Hornet with same settings and i killed 7 guns(i can shoot better than VT :p )

and now we tryed to kill the American carriers :

I attacked the bridge of the Yorktown : same damage as you drop a bomb on the main deck

then more intresting ^^ : to finish off Yorktown i launched 9 Torpedo bombers (i repeat : no damage control!) , she was almost killed after 7 hits(2 missed)

i finished her off with 1 squadron of torpedo bombers

this was nothing new to us bhut then...

with Yorktown gone , i launched 6 sq.dive bombers to attack enterprise...1 plane was shot down accidental and we "missed" 1 bomb so that makes 16 bombs on target...gues what...enterprise gone...

VTROOPER and me were very surprised...we tought that it would be about half damage...

then to finish it all of , i launched 6 squadrons of Dive bombers and 6 squadrons of torpedo bombers and i attacked hornet... she was sunk after 8 torpedoes :lol: i didn't used ANY dive bombers

then on Sibuyan sea :

VTROOPER used a single B-17 on Yamato : NO DAMAGE

then a single avenger on Yamato : not much damage , less then 1/20


then VT targeted Musashi with 6 squadrons Bombers(3 B-17 and 3 B-25)

hmm... she was as good as new after the bombardement



Then i had to go bhut we'll be back with more research soon!

STAY TUNED PPL!:D:D

grtz : M0n3y and VTROOPER

[VTROOPER]

alot of that to me like not even a dent in yamato was werd its confusing even 16 bombes sinking a yorktown class CV.

[It3llig3nc3]

Wow, this is a good thread :)
I was also planning on to do some tests but not having 2 licenses it seemed difficult. The Demo map does not have all units.

Anyways.
Few questions: are you sure that a B-17 made no damage to the Jap carrier? It is a very suspicious result to me. I know for fact that on single player one B-17 squad (3 planes) can finish off a carrier in REGULAR difficulty.

The rest of the results seems pretty much in line with the damage model and armor/hit point data I have in the BS:M guide. When you conduct the tests it would be good to know WHICH PART of the target ships you aim.
According to the damage model there are 5 parts
STEERING
FUELTANK
ENGINE
MAGAZINE
BODY
+1 for carriers: FLIGHT DECK
The model says that if ANY of those reaches a hitpoint of 0 the unit is done.

For illustration:
Yorktown hitpoints:
Steering/fueltank/engine/magazine/body has 300
Flight deck has 1000

Yorktwon armor:
Engine: 90
Magazine: 135
Fueltank: 135
Steering: 90
Under water: 180
Hangar: 90
Flight Deck: 95
Body: 90

Weapons:
1 torpedo 250 damage
1 500kg bomb 260 damage and 100 blast damage

The calculation is:
Effective hit = damage - armor

So one torp to the body:
250 damage - 90 armor = 160 damage (out of 300)

Conclusion: without damage control 2 torps should be able to finish it off if aimed precisely to the same place.

[It3llig3nc3]

alot of that to me like not even a dent in yamato was werd its confusing even 16 bombes sinking a yorktown class CV.

Yup I noted this in another thread at least two times.
Many player does not recognize the fact that BBs can not be bombed by B-17s.
Based on my post above it is very clear why: the BB's armor is STRONGER than the damage the bomb is causing so it technically bounces off.
It would be good if more player would know it :D so would not waste endless bomb-runs on BBs with a B-17. If I see that coming towards my BB I simply go for a drink as I'm sure nothing is going to happen.

[M0n3y]

Wow, this is a good thread :)
I was also planning on to do some tests but not having 2 licenses it seemed difficult. The Demo map does not have all units.

Anyways.
Few questions: are you sure that a B-17 made no damage to the Jap carrier? It is a very suspicious result to me. I know for fact that on single player one B-17 squad (3 planes) can finish off a carrier in REGULAR difficulty.


Conclusion: without damage control 2 torps should be able to finish it off if aimed precisely to the same place.

well ty intelligence...VTROOPER we have a fan :D


about ur questions :
1:he used just 1 single B-17 and with different payload...my conclusion is , or Vtrooper can't aim or the payload was not as heavy

2: in SP i can kill a DD with few bombs and kami-runs(on easy)

don't forget it was 1 B-17 and no sever places were hit like the fuel tanks or bridge(btw about that 1 bomb dropped on yorktown's bridge , was actually on the captains room :lol: i'm sure he has a headache)

and gues why i started this thread and not VT^^

[VTROOPER]

btw about that 1 bomb dropped on yorktown's bridge , was actually on the captains room :lol: i'm sure he has a headache

i told you it may of bin the amiruls brige.

[VTROOPER]

well ty intelligence...VTROOPER we have a fan :D


ya now we can do it on all the maps with aircraft:D

[M0n3y]

well be bussy for houres :D

[VTROOPER]

just so we can test wepons and how effective they are :D

[Thedivingmongoose]

These smily faces are awsome.:D

It is too bad you don't have it for the PC. Then I could join in the testing too.

[VTROOPER]

yes but then we coodent do the privet chat.

[M0n3y]

well you're right about those faces :D

and if we did it on PC we could let see some screenshots...
oh and VT...then we would use TS;)

[VTROOPER]

oh there is privet chat on PC :scratch:

[M0n3y]

ok Vtrooper and me have finished our research

these are the final results :

And back on Operation MI...

Vtrooper used a Catalina aircraft to test her 2 torpedoes on Hiryu : 1/4th damage

then he used 450 P on Zuiho : almost to damage

and just to play around VT used 1 DC on Soryu : NO Damage

and to finish off the job , VT killed Akagi

then i strafed Hornet with 9 SQ of zero's and i detsroyed all his AA guns^^

later i detsroyed the other 2 carriers


Meanwhile on Sibuyan Sea...

we tryed to look for damage from a B-17 on Chikuma...Well VT messed around and he managed to get the B-17 on Sea level!!!, he dropped the bombs and Chikuma had about 1/4th damage(i hit his B-17 with a shell from Chikuma:D:D)

then we were wondering what damage a pt boat could do to Musashi
well... Musashi received 4 hits and had 1/3 damage

i was also wondering what the Jap bombers could do to Iowa(vtrooper sank his DD escort :lol:) the jap bombers are no good bhut i hitted Iowa with the next damage : 3 5" guns destroyed and 1 16" gun destroyed and just minor damage to the ship itself(it was more than we expected)


If you have some nice ideas to check , plz share them with us :)

[VTROOPER]

ya we do need more ideas becows we tested every thing we can think of.

[M0n3y]

even kami-runs on Hornet , bhut without succes

[VTROOPER]

what do you meen no dameg you shot down most of the wildcats on the deak or after thay lonched.

[M0n3y]

those werend kani runs bhut strafing runs^^ and yes i killed all ur WC's on the deck :D
i did crashed all my planes in hornet bhut it wasn't much damage

[Thedivingmongoose]

Take the B-17s on Operation MI and outfit it with the maximum pound-per bomb load (the one with the heaviest but fewest bombs). Take it and do a run at the Hiryu or Soryu or whatever right above its deck going the long ways. This should destroy it...I have done it many times on Regular and Veteran. I want you guys to test it....it is up to you!

[VTROOPER]

this is MP not SP.

[Thedivingmongoose]

this is MP not SP.

Test it anyways please:D .

I made you coworkers a coworkers thingy.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u311/Thedivingmongoose/theinvent.jpg

[VTROOPER]

all we do is test wepons and how good they are agest other units.

[It3llig3nc3]

Take the B-17s on Operation MI and outfit it with the maximum pound-per bomb load (the one with the heaviest but fewest bombs). Take it and do a run at the Hiryu or Soryu or whatever right above its deck going the long ways. This should destroy it...I have done it many times on Regular and Veteran. I want you guys to test it....it is up to you!


This is confirmed working on BOTH MP (multi player) AND SP (single player).
The B-17s can clearly sink a CV with the few rounds. Of course you need to bomb from VERY LOW LEVEL and through the axis of the ship.
If you can't do it you're lame... :rasp:

OFF TOPIC
VTROOPER
M0n3y
your signatures are TERRIBLY BIG therefore makes the reading of the topics very fragmented.
This added to the "CHAT" style one liner posts 99% of the cases increases my annoyment exponentially.
By the way the large signature is also in violation of the forum rules just like the thread spamming.
Please don't do it.
OFF TOPIC ENDS

[M0n3y]

Take the B-17s on Operation MI and outfit it with the maximum pound-per bomb load (the one with the heaviest but fewest bombs). Take it and do a run at the Hiryu or Soryu or whatever right above its deck going the long ways. This should destroy it...I have done it many times on Regular and Veteran. I want you guys to test it....it is up to you!

a single B-17 or a full squadron?

[VTROOPER]

OFF TOPIC
VTROOPER
M0n3y
your signatures are TERRIBLY BIG therefore makes the reading of the topics very fragmented.
This added to the "CHAT" style one liner posts 99% of the cases increases my annoyment exponentially.
By the way the large signature is also in violation of the forum rules just like the thread spamming.
Please don't do it.
OFF TOPIC ENDS

hay my sig isant big see :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

[It3llig3nc3]

a single B-17 or a full squadron?

In SP (single player) on the "Turning point at Midway" map you have 3 plane squads. On this map I can destroy the two carriers on REGULAR level with 3 squads. Having said that the "trick" is that I can LOW LEVEL BOMB (I mean practically fly the B-17 sea level) using ONE plane from a squad the rest does the usual high level "dance" which is useless.

On MP (Operation MI) you have 2 plane squads for B-17s This weekend I managed to destroy one carrier with 2 runs. Typically one raid can put the carrier in YELLOW around 50% and after repairs it goes up to 60% but the next bomb run will finish it.

I will try to do it with ONE plane squads but under combat circumstances it is difficult. Typically on MP you have to be lucky and get a lot of support from teammates to manage to get ONE B-17 to the Jap carriers out of 4 (2 squads, 2 planes in each). SP looks easier... I'll check.

[M0n3y]

ok VT and i are low on ideas , so we did some funny tests and some really dumb tests :lol:
these are the results :

1 B-17 on a DD with 450P : almost half damage

Torpedoes from a mini sub on a sub : almost half damage

9 B-25's on a DD : TOTALLY DETSROYED:nut: :nut: :nut:

then... 9 torpedoes on musashi's front... almost killed and her front gun was in the water ^^

[VTROOPER]

you forgot the strfing on the airfilds.

[M0n3y]

well it was cool bhut it did no damage to the airfield's HP bar

bhut i did destroy much of ur aircraft and you killed alot of mine..
all buildings gone^^ whohoo!

[It3llig3nc3]

If you have time to test a few things here is some scenarios I would be interested in. I assume it will be done with no repairs and you try to aim to stationary (non moving) targets to make it more precise.

1. Yamato vs. Iowa (both ways) - how many shots from the MAIN turrets to sink the opponent? (make sure they are far away so the secondary guns don't come to play)

2. How quickly can you finish off a squad (3) torpedo planes attacking a BB from the side? (compare Yamato vs. Iowa please).
What I see is that the AA guns starts being effective at a 1.0 mile range for both Yamato and Iowa but the Iowa seems to be much quicker killing off the planes...

---

If you guys still have time what is also interesting to test is how many torpedoes required to kill a BB / CA / CL / DD / CV if the repairs are turned ON? Let's say ALL 3 "repairmen" works on flood!
Can you do that?

GO GO!

[VTROOPER]

thats good ideas but we do it with 0 dameg cantrol.

[M0n3y]

If you have time to test a few things

simply : NO

jk sure we can

and all our tests we did are without DC and they are stationary

[VTROOPER]

simply : NO

jk sure we can

and all our tests we did are without DC and they are stationary

well i agree but lets do stuff on other maps :D

[M0n3y]

jees VT i was here before you and you have almost 3 times my posts :eek: :eek: :eek: :D

well schools almost in so we have to hurry to get everything we need...

[VTROOPER]

i hate school who invented it eny way.

[M0n3y]

same here :(

and how's ur disc btw?

[VTROOPER]

its still mest up i think i have triyed it agen yet.

[xgamerms999]

Mon3y I have to disagree with your results on MI, I did that test with a friend a while ago, and found the 200 lb. bomb the most effective followed by the 450, with the 100 doing no damage (NOTE: 1 B-17 did the bombing at a time, all on the same class). As with the Yamato class bombing, as I stated before, I did that too, but in a game, the Musashi got stuck, and I hit her with 3 squads B-17 450, 3 squads B-25, if I remember correctly they hold 450 as well, and virtualy no damage was done(NOTE: Full squads used).

[VTROOPER]

well you didony make yours public.

[It3llig3nc3]

VTROOPER, MON3Y - guys get back to ON-TOPIC! Please.
This thread was an awesome idea but now it is degraded to a chat session with only 6-7 useful posts.

Can you complete the tests I asked for?

Go Go Go !

[M0n3y]

well we can , bhut not this week...

1: VT's CD is messed up
2: this noon/afternoon i'm going to visit my dad for the weekend(there i don't have an xbox360 and even when i took it with me , on my room is no internet(yet))

ex.i'm leaving at 2PM===>that's 8AM for VT and i have to bring all together , PSP...

[VTROOPER]

you shood get a labtop like my sister.

[Dremora Warlord]

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to question your research.

I have taken out the Akagi with one B-17 on MI. You either are a terrible bombardier, or i read it wrong. I'll show you that it's a fact.

[VTROOPER]

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to question your research.

I have taken out the Akagi with one B-17 on MI. You either are a terrible bombardier, or i read it wrong. I'll show you that it's a fact.

you must of amed from front to back.

[andy3536]

you must of amed from front to back.

Well didn't you?
It makes much more sence if your bombs go down the flight deck than port - starboard.

[VTROOPER]

no we attacked on the side.

[andy3536]

no we attacked on the side.

Well, there you have your next research subject.;)

[M0n3y]

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to question your research.

I have taken out the Akagi with one B-17 on MI. You either are a terrible bombardier, or i read it wrong. I'll show you that it's a fact.

wel VTrooper did all the bombing :lol::D

[VTROOPER]

well im owning in the CoD4 beta.

[M0n3y]

i wanna have it to bhut i'm just back from my dad and my mom don't want me to play on it 1 day before school starts again...

[xgamerms999]

The Company of Heroes: Oposing Front open Beta is... well, open. lol

[VTROOPER]

i just what for the hole CoH:OF game to came out.

[M0n3y]

ok we are back on so plz post any ideas that you want us to try out here :)

oh and btw i play CoH : OF and the original

[Arrow]

I'm shocked as to how far off topic this discussion has gone. >.> Anyway, I'm VERY certain that B-17 hits cause a lot of damage to CVs.

As mentioned before, there are several parts to a ship. As shown in my metagaming thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=74773), the life of a ship does NOT hinge on the destruction of one particular component - it hinges on the health of the underwater section in particular.

The body section takes hits for the underwater section until the bridge is destroyed. Any further hits to the body at that point will cause a leak (which damages the underwater section).

Fires do NOT do any damage at all in multiplayer.

This is why it's IMPERATIVE that all personnel be set on water repair in multiplayer.

[M0n3y]

ok so that makes 1 B-17 on a CV
with or without water control?

[Arrow]

ok so that makes 1 B-17 on a CV
with or without water control?

Try it with water control on. Make it more realistic. Additionally keep in mind that B-17s are often sent in triplicate, so even if one B-17 doesn't do much damage, you discounted the other 48 bombs carried by the other B-17s.

[M0n3y]

how about we send in 3 squadrons of 1 plane? :D
with a little time difference ^^

[VTROOPER]

well im not able to use the DLC eney more (disc must of got dameged :( ) so the bombers will have to be on MI

[Arrow]

Here's another one I'd like to see you guys do. I keep hearing that the Wildcat is a better performance-wise than the Zero. Any proof of that one?

[M0n3y]

well im not able to use the DLC eney more (disc must of got dameged :( ) so the bombers will have to be on MI
i already tought of that :rolleyes:

Here's another one I'd like to see you guys do. I keep hearing that the Wildcat is a better performance-wise than the Zero. Any proof of that one?

uhm VT and me will be in a duel ^^
each side , 3 rounds
that should work out nicely

i'm online on wednesday!(till 7.30 PM GMT+1)

[Bismarck1990]

I'm shocked as to how far off topic this discussion has gone. >.> Anyway, I'm VERY certain that B-17 hits cause a lot of damage to CVs.

As mentioned before, there are several parts to a ship. As shown in my metagaming thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=74773), the life of a ship does NOT hinge on the destruction of one particular component - it hinges on the health of the underwater section in particular.

The body section takes hits for the underwater section until the bridge is destroyed. Any further hits to the body at that point will cause a leak (which damages the underwater section).

Fires do NOT do any damage at all in multiplayer.

This is why it's IMPERATIVE that all personnel be set on water repair in multiplayer.


This is the exact reason that the Dive Bombers work on all ships, not just DD's like many people think. I regularly cause damage to and sink CV's and CA's with wave after wave of Dive Bombers by simply aiming for the bridge or just ahead of it. As a general rule, if your bombs are making tiny little explosions such as happens when hitting deck areas then you're not gonna cut it. If it creates a massive blast that usually rips apart the bridge first hit then a few more hits in this area can sink almost anything.

[VTROOPER]

i'm online on wednesday!(till 7.30 PM GMT+1)

i cant get on till friday:(

[M0n3y]

hmm
friday eh
i can get on 7 PM GMT
see if you can get on then too
oh and i'm free the whole weekend :D
that's a BS:M weekend :rolleyes:

[[RAN]-Cobalt]

Nice research you guys have done. :thumbsup:

Should help me in some games. :whistle:

[M0n3y]

your welcome :D
only my cd broke down so somebody needs to replace me :(