Pearl Harbour

[crazyhorse128]

i was reading this thing, that said that Pearl harbor was not a surprise attack, the US wanted a reason to go to war with Japan and when codes revealed that there was to be a attack on the pearl they let it happen so they could go to war

[VTROOPER]

i was reading this thing, that said that Pearl harbor was not a surprise attack, the US wanted a reason to go to war with Japan and when codes revealed that there was to be a attack on the pearl they let it happen so they could go to war

i know that the giy who rowt the cay made a book about it and help make tora tora tora. they wornsd them but marshal sent the telagram aninportant.

[It3llig3nc3]

i was reading this thing, that said that Pearl harbor was not a surprise attack, the US wanted a reason to go to war with Japan and when codes revealed that there was to be a attack on the pearl they let it happen so they could go to war

Well I guess it is a bit more complicated than that. What you say is a kind of "conspiracy theory" that partially might be true - we won't know if for another 100 years at least I guess.
Check out the movie Tora, Tora, Tora for example to get some idea of the sequence of the events. Amongst the bonus material your question is asked and discussed by historians.

The way I see it letting the Pearl Harbor attack happen was a very risky "game" since it practically offered "free destruction" of the major part of the Pacific force.

And after all the big question is: at the end of 1941 wasn't there enough argument already on the table for the U.S. to enter to the war if wanted without Pearl Harbor?

[Herr-Wulf]

not really int3lligence,the US in that time was a bit like switzerland has always been,A neutral country


as for the US knowing about the raid,they knew something was gonna happen but no idea as to where and when
Midway and Wake Island where prepared for obvious reasons,as they would've been on the frontline

the reason Pearl was so surprised was 2 things
1:early morning after a free night for most officers,lots of hangovers lol
2:the location of hawai,not a single american officer expected the Japanese to be able to strike at such a distance without beeing noticed


they should've however carried out the third wave of the attack aswell,which was aimed at the oil supply for the fleet,however the commanding officer of the attack decided that without the US battleships the war would be over for the US
that mistake cost them the war 5 years later

had the Japanese high command listened to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto and not attacked the US,then the entire East asian Area(reaching from the Indian borders till the Russian border) might have been officially named Japan

[xgamerms999]

I thought they stoped the attack because they didn't want the US carriers to strike back, see as they had no idea where they were...

[VTROOPER]

and they didont whant over kill so good for the USN :D

[It3llig3nc3]

Herr-Wulf

With all due respect but by the end of 1941 the U.S. might have LOOKED like a neutral country but in fact they were deeply engaged on the side of the allies.
I just want to mention the continuous supplies over the Atlantic that was the KEY for the Brits to maintain defense.
Also to note that those supplies sometimes were provided for credit, not hard money payment. This is because the U.S. was very generous and voted and set up a "War Credit" program in order to allow all required items to get delivered to Europe (and Russia later but it was only after 1942).
I'm pretty sure there were lots of U.S. lives lost on those transport ships crossing the Atlantic before the famous day in December, 1941.

If you're trying to say that the U.S. was in a dire need for a more "heavy" incident to convince it's average people to support the war more actively that's something I'm not sure about...

About the attack:
There are a few theories why the Japanese hasn't finished the attack. Some say Nagumo was not brave enough to continue, on the other had he might have been just cautious knowing that the war is just beginning and did not want to push his "luck": wanted to save the strike force for further use.

[Herr-Wulf]

I'm not saying that a heavier incident was needed,at the time of those convoys the US just wasen't gonna get activly involved in the fight,merely sending supplies instead

over time they would've gotten in the fight anyways due to the losses in the convoys and the call of assistance by the british(main reason why the US helped europe)

Pearl just made the US get out of their shell in the pacific

About the attack:
There are a few theories why the Japanese hasn't finished the attack. Some say Nagumo was not brave enough to continue, on the other had he might have been just cautious knowing that the war is just beginning and did not want to push his "luck": wanted to save the strike force for further use.

all possible,my theory comes from several documentaries
however the statement Nagumo was not brave enough,I wouldn't buy that one(had he been not brave enough,tradition would ask for him to step down as admiral or possibly regain his honor by self sacrifice)

[chip5541]

Let us not forget that the US was already fighting the Japanese in an unofficial capacity for China.

Flying Tigers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers

[andy3536]

Let us not forget that the US was already fighting the Japanese in an unofficial capacity for China.

Flying Tigers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers

Well actually no, they wern't!
To quote from your link.
The AVG did not see combat until December 20, 1941, thirteen days after Pearl Harbor.


Let us also not forget the raid that inspired the japanese
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taranto
British using modified torpedoes destroying a number of ships with those undamage transfered north out of harms way.

[VTROOPER]

yes but i sall sordfish with D-Day markings

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/~pdeh/swordfish_invasion_stripes.jpg



and a + they cood cary rockets.

[-=BoM=-HyTech]

The AVG did not see combat until December 20, 1941, thirteen days after Pearl Harbor

They were already in China long before Pearl Harbor and were going to fight wether or not Pearl even happened. They had the support of FDR himself.

[M0n3y]

Herr-Wulf
About the attack:
There are a few theories why the Japanese hasn't finished the attack. Some say Nagumo was not brave enough to continue, on the other had he might have been just cautious knowing that the war is just beginning and did not want to push his "luck": wanted to save the strike force for further use.

indeed they didn't finish the attack
bhut i think he wanted to save his last wave bcs more and more planes were shot down

[andy3536]

They were already in China long before Pearl Harbor and were going to fight wether or not Pearl even happened. They had the support of FDR himself.

Yes, i'm well aware of that :mad2:
Chip said they were fighting before pearl, and they weren't.
Whether they were or not going to is irrelevant to my statement!

[crazyhorse128]

before pearl harbor the US was pouring loads of tanks gun cash and ammo into the UK and its friends, and they did that in future conflicts all other the world, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the US paid for weapons and training as they didn't want the soviets to occupy Afghanistan but if they sent a force over then bad things could of happened, so they fought under a different flag

[Cpt.sharp]

before pearl harbor the US was pouring loads of tanks gun cash and ammo into the UK and its friends, and they did that in future conflicts all other the world, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the US paid for weapons and training as they didn't want the soviets to occupy Afghanistan but if they sent a force over then bad things could of happened, so they fought under a different flag

Not forgetting the IRA. ""we will not negotiate with terrorists" But we will give them the weapons to fight.

[VTROOPER]

yes but were wining in the middel of the east.

[Cpt.sharp]

yes but were wining in the middel of the east.

I will belive you but others might not :p

Read up on propaganda, its a very important tool for moral in ones country.

[andy3536]

yes but were wining in the middel of the east.

Hmmm!


Shouldn't that be 'were winning in the middle east'
Not
"were winning in the middle of the east"
What about the rest of the east, kinda implies your loosing everywhere else!

[crazyhorse128]

I will belive you but others might not :p

Read up on propaganda, its a very important tool for moral in ones country.
Scrubs put it well, ill just call him person x and he is talking to person y to avoid confusion,


Y-have you found out more about the Iraq war yet?
x- ive been reading this book and bush has just announced that they have caught Saddam but theres still loads of the book left

[M0n3y]

the only book i read are manuals :D

[VTROOPER]

i read war book and ocasinly my FoW and golden age of flight calender :D

and stupid somer reading :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad:

[andy3536]

I like to read first hand accounts of war, the best book i've read is by a frenchman, fighting for the germans on the eastern front.
Called, The forgotten soldier. Well worth a look :thumbsup:

[Cpt.sharp]

Go to the BBC website and search warstorys. There are some GREAT accounts from every front from the people who were there.

My personal Fav is one mans account of his service on HMS Warspite. He talks about all the battles and bombardments he was in. He also tells us about the day he had to leave the ship after the war and becoming unemployed. The next job he gets is working on HMS Warspite to take her apart bit by bit for the scrapyard. You can tell how sad the guy was by this.

[VTROOPER]

Go to the BBC website and search warstorys. There are some GREAT accounts from every front from the people who were there.

My personal Fav is one mans account of his service on HMS Warspite. He talks about all the battles and bombardments he was in. He also tells us about the day he had to leave the ship after the war and becoming unemployed. The next job he gets is working on HMS Warspite to take her apart bit by bit for the scrapyard. You can tell how sad the guy was by this.

thats not right and i feel bad for him :(

[M0n3y]

i don't wanna be him... it's the same like destroying the house you build urself:(

[VTROOPER]

wa wa wa wine

[crazyhorse128]

a good military book is 'Black hawk down' by mark bowden (yes it inspired the film)

[VTROOPER]

i whant to see the film :D

[xgamerms999]

I love that movie!

[M0n3y]

yeah a great movie:thumbsup:

[VTROOPER]

but toro toro toros not good :(

[generalsilverstone]

hi all i know i havent posted here for some time but i just had to post in this topic.

on the day of the attack a message was recived by a radio operater at the hawian raido staion informing pearl harbour of a possible attack in a matter of days. this message was marked as not important due to the timeframe reported in it and so the courier set out on his/her bike to deliver the message and all other messages it just so happens that by the time he/she got to pearl harbour the attack had been going on for some time (i dont know exactly but i think about 4-5 hours). the attack on pearl harbour was a complete surprise for the men and women stationed there but! if the message had been marked urgent the people at pearl harbour would have been informed about an hour before the attack which is enouthg time to rouse the fighting men fuel some planes and arm the anit air guns. also the radar station at pearl only picked up the incoming japanese a matter of minutes before they made land fall and not enought to get a message to pearl plus its my understandin gthat theuy may have been attacked

[M0n3y]

well if they were rushing for the attack , i think that they would have evacuated the harbour...

[watty14]

i dont mean to go off topic a little bit here but i was readin bout the pearl attack on wiki and it says that the japs thought thier midget sub crews were "nine young gods" but what did they do in the attack besides suposedly firing one torp into a BB. i mean wat did they do in the attack other than sink?

[M0n3y]

looking how the ships are sinking??

the midget subs are not THAT useless...

u can use them like this :

Yamato vs Iowa , the battle everyone wants , Iowa is wining...bhut then ! 4 torpedoes in her back(2 MS's!) and Iowa is starting to sink...

[VTROOPER]

but the iwoa has a good dameg cantrol party so it wood probibly survive.

[M0n3y]

and yamato has better armour

[VTROOPER]

well the yamato had range but iowa had a good firing control sistem.

[M0n3y]

yamato has bigger guns and more guns and better armour

[VTROOPER]

go to camden the tore gides on the new jeresy will say the new jeresy wood win.

[watty14]

looking how the ships are sinking??

the midget subs are not THAT useless...

u can use them like this :

Yamato vs Iowa , the battle everyone wants , Iowa is wining...bhut then ! 4 torpedoes in her back(2 MS's!) and Iowa is starting to sink...

yea i see ur point there but.. the mini subs were useless outside of a harbore, i dunno why but i think they were, and all this stuff bout iowa vs yamato, i rekon were lucky it was neva fought coz it wouldv been so close..

[M0n3y]

yea i see ur point there

few one concern taken away:D

well the midget subs are fast and you can use them against the Wasp...

only it's easy to destroy with the main guns of a BB.(CA?)

[VTROOPER]

or just drop a paylode of B-17 bombes on it :D

[M0n3y]

yeah not much damage(forgot to say that) bhut it was below surface...

[Herr-Wulf]

I'm a yamato fanboy myself but I have to say that Yamato would simply get obliterated by the Iowa's or even North carolina or South dakota class battleships for one reason

the US ships could accuretly shoot over the horizon thanks to the radar controlled fire support systems

while the yamato just like all other Japanese Battleships had to rely on scout aircraft to guide the Yamatos guns to the right position

also yamato had to either evade or attack,while all the US modern Battleships could do both again due to advanced fire control

gun range and destructive power of your shells mean nothing if you can't get em on target

[VTROOPER]

yes but they har to put lat lon and beromiter (poibly more) to fire there gun.