CD, pay attention to this, please

[TombCrow]

I think using Egypt as background is really a good way to make players personally on the scene. Maybe this is why TR4 can bring players a strong sense of involvement.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5222/atlashc7.th.jpg (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=atlashc7.jpg) http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3207/dscf4073yc9.th.jpg (http://img154.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf4073yc9.jpg) http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4177/img0121og8.th.jpg (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img0121og8.jpg) http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/1205/dic3qo6.th.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dic3qo6.jpg)
Egypte in ATLAS HISTORIQUE DU MONDE(FR)
Egypte in MERVEILLEUSE EGYPTE DES PHARAONS(FR)
Egypte in LOUVRE
Egypte in Dictionnaire encyclopédique de l’Ancienne Egypte et des civilisations nubiennes(FR)

But when looking at the published TRA screenshots, I don’t think it is much like Egypt. There must be something wrong. And this is not my own opinion. After discussing with other fans, we believe it is because of color.

[TombCrow]

Some colors in TR4 are too strong and exaggerated. But a game is precisely an art, for which exaggeration is necessary.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8527/tr44ox3.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tr44ox3.jpg) http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7233/tr45ek1.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tr45ek1.jpg) http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3439/tomb0004sh6nx9.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tomb0004sh6nx9.jpg)

[TombCrow]

Egypt is a colorful world with a main hue of khaki...

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7707/mythologieyi2.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mythologieyi2.jpg) http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/5240/pharon1zx0.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pharon1zx0.jpg) http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4756/pharon2qd5.th.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pharon2qd5.jpg) http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5325/pharon3ke5.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pharon3ke5.jpg) http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2523/pharon6az2.th.jpg (http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pharon6az2.jpg) http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1292/dic2rh2.th.jpg (http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dic2rh2.jpg)
Pictures from: ENCYCLOPEDIE DE LA MYTHOLOGIE(FR), MERVEILLEUSE EGYPTE DES PHARAONS(FR), and Dictionnaire encyclopédique de l’Ancienne Egypte et des civilisations nubiennes(FR)

[TombCrow]

...and so is the Egypt in TR1.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9008/tr1nd3.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tr1nd3.jpg) http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7529/tr12rh5.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tr12rh5.jpg) http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3569/fetchcb4.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fetchcb4.jpg) http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/8915/56743499tp5.th.jpg (http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=56743499tp5.jpg)

But in TRA, the color is not strong enough.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7162/tracq9.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tracq9.jpg) http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6056/tra2fq7.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tra2fq7.jpg) http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2122/tra017jz4.th.jpg (http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tra017jz4.jpg) http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3237/tra050gp4.th.jpg (http://img412.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tra050gp4.jpg)

[TombCrow]

Here are some shots, by Rivendell from TRF.com (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/); obviously the colors in TR1 and in TRA are quite different:

http://i17.tinypic.com/3329w8x.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/3z014d5.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/4h2j3x3.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/2ahyulw.jpg

[TombCrow]

Almost all places in games designed by CD look like the same, you can’t tell much difference between the scenes in TRA and the scenes in TRL. Even when Lara is in different countries, facing different cultures of different times, the humdrum color just makes it like that Lara is in the same place.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1272/tra055dz7.th.jpg (http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tra055dz7.jpg) http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1073/tra045rk4.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tra045rk4.jpg) http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5572/tr7ps2050af8.th.jpg (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tr7ps2050af8.jpg)

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9945/tr7ps2003tz8.th.jpg (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tr7ps2003tz8.jpg) http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/3104/tr7pcngnepal54zb1.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tr7pcngnepal54zb1.jpg) http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1949/tr7x360063vg2.th.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tr7x360063vg2.jpg)
Egypt in TRA, Peru in TRA, Tiwanaku in TRL, Paraiso in TRL, Nepal in TRL, Ghana in TRL...look like the same.

[TombCrow]

I think the most weak point of the game is its changeless and uncolorful color. Every civilization has its own color, but most levels made by CD are in same black and gray. It seems that they are not so accomplished in using artistic way to build up images of different cultures. But instead, much effort has been laid on polygons and shapes.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/7283/dscf4049fv8.th.jpg (http://img514.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf4049fv8.jpg) http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7424/dscf4054zw2.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf4054zw2.jpg) http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/9396/dscf4056od4.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf4056od4.jpg)

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/8623/gracekb8.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gracekb8.jpg) http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7516/iraned4.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iraned4.jpg) http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/177/asiesudestoq7.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=asiesudestoq7.jpg)
Tiwanaku, Rome, Maya, Grace, Iran, South-East Asia...

[TombCrow]

...and Egypte.
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1699/dic4rg6.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dic4rg6.jpg) http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/4118/louvrewz0.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=louvrewz0.jpg) http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/9958/louvre2ge1.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=louvre2ge1.jpg) http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/1073/louvre3vy0.th.jpg (http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=louvre3vy0.jpg)

Shape is one way to describe cultures and arts, but it is not the only way. Especially in a Game, color is much more important. It has also been proved by scientists that in terms of visual image, color is more impulsive than shape.

Maybe it is too late for TRA, but I wish CD pay more attention to colors for TR8, all I want is just a more perfect game.

Pictures from:

- ATLAS HISTORIQUE DU MONDE(FR)
- MERVEILLEUSE EGYPTE DES PHARAONS(FR)
- Dictionnaire encyclopédique de l’Ancienne Egypte et des civilisations nubiennes(FR)
- ENCYCLOPEDIE DE LA MYTHOLOGIE(FR)
- LES MAYAS(FR)
- FASTUEUSES CITES ANTIQUES(FR)
- THE LOUVRE (EN)

- MUSEE DU LOUVRE

- http://www.tombraiderforums.com/
- http://www.gmly.info/

[TombCrow]

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s214/jiakai/030.jpg

another picture of Egypt

[Coutou]

Oh for god sake. This is just ridiculous now.

[Tomb-Dude]

i agree it is ridiculous now!!!! its a game it's not going to be perfect egypt is it they can the what the hell they like coz it is a game!

[LisaB]

How colorful something should be should probably be determined on two things:

1. Exposure to elements. Outside areas are going to be weathered rather heavily, deteriorating the colorful world the ancient Egyptians actually lived in.

2. Human traffic. Even inner areas can be worn down by the constant touch of human hands. So discovered tombs or broken-into tombs will also probably show more wear or outright damage.

Newly discovered indoor areas though could quite possibly still have brilliant color.

[TombCrow]

CD is very good at many things: the sound effect, the personality of Lara, the storyline, and so on. Actually everything could be done well if they pay enough attention to it.

But they have never mentioned the color, and I think this is just the point they have ignored(or havn't paied enough attention) for a long time. The problem is not only in Egypt, but in all levels(always the same color...almost), except the Croft Manor.

Sorry for my poor English, I wish I've made myself understood.

[Tomb-Dude]

well lisa has got good points there as well.

[rabid metro]

...But when looking at the published TRA screenshots, I don’t think it is much like Egypt. There must be something wrong. And this is not my own opinion. After discussing with other fans, we believe it is because of color.

three quick comments:
1. CD is paying attention to its fan base. here in forum-world, this has been taken to a different place,
with many thinking that CD must pay attention to them, almost individually.
on this point i can only offer you the best of luck ...

2. CD is trying for "realism" and its funny that, in some instances,
the forum-world response to that seems to be: (a) its too real and (b) its not real enough ...
good lenses are de rigeur to see things clearly here ...
which kinda brings me to my third comment.

3. artists have the right of perogative. how do you tell Gauguin (http://quote.robertgenn.com/auth_search.php?authid=38) to "get real"?
the same sentiment applies to the creative development work of CD, IMO. :cool:

They say that according to Gauguin: "Art is an abstraction".

[TombCrow]

Thank you for your replies. But perhaps you didn't catch my meaning exactly.

Never in my statement have I over-exacted a reversion to a "perfect Egypt". And never have I reseached that sort of problems such as how the gorgeous colors of the real Egypt fades, what a degree it fades to, or where can the gorgeous colors be seen. Returning to reality is a camerist's task, But the advice I've put forward here is to be given to art-designers, not camerists!

Meanwhile, I do not pay that much attention to the reality of games. The problem that I focus on is the disjointed parts between the color of the scenes in a game and the culture a game should present, because this problem will lead to the lack of sympathetic chords between gamers with a game, especially to those experienced gamers who have been playing this series from TR1, or those who care for the unique cultures in Tomb Raider and who take Tomb Raider as an art.

That's right. It's precisely because it is a game that I want it to be more attractive than the reality. For this sake, it'd better be an oil painting instead of a charcoal drawing! Each civilization and each area has its own symbolic art style, including the way and preference for using color. Only as far as the color of buildings is concerned, Chinese love red and gold, Greeks prefer offwhite, and people in Middle East favor green...These are relevant to all art-style, religious culture and construction materials. As for museums, from the Mesopotamia, the Egyptian Museum to the Persia Museum, you could find the visual impact that the colors do to your eyes very distinct.

For a game featuring cultures and ancient sites as its highlights, art design staff need to pay attention to all the art-features including the aspect of using colors, doing their best to vary and present definitely those various levels, various areas and various civilizations. This is what a complete TR game needs, but not a individual show on which the an artist exhibits his preference for using colors as much as he likes; the most important job that art-designers should do is to serve for the theme of a game.

Here I am just discoursing upon some pieces of advice that my friends have shared with me. Our common purpose lies in the following: All of us have been playing from TR1 to TR7, and all of us are interested in the ancient civilizations. The unique cultures in Tomb Raider are a key factor that attracts us to fall in love with this series of games, and we are fully confident in Crystal Dynamics' ability. What's more, English is not our native language. So, the reason I posted this topic so conscientiously and detailedly here is just beacause I want TRA to be more wonderful. I am looking forward to replies filled with specialized art and history knowledge but not a reminder such as "This is only a 'make-belive' game".

[rabid metro]

we should probably assume that CD is capable of designing in glorious color (i.e. look at the Scion and monsters, etc.)
if they are not capable of designing with grand colors then there's no hope whatsoever ...

sooooo, assuming that they are capable of designing in color, as you would like, why do you think that they have chosen not to? :cool:

[ilovelctr]

we should probably assume that CD is capable of designing in glorious color (i.e. look at the Scion and monsters, etc.)
if they are not capable of designing with grand colors then there's no hope whatsoever ...

sooooo, assuming that they are capable of designing in color, as you would like, why do you think that they have chosen not to? :cool:
I agree with TombCrow's view.:cool: I'm also a member from gmly.info.;)

He is just talking about the color of the culture, the color of the buildings and constructions which are symbolic to a civilization, but not monsters. So, just don't misread what he means.

[rabid metro]

sooooo, assuming that they are capable of designing in color, as you would like, why do you think that they have chosen not to?
He is just talking about the color of the culture, the color of the buildings and constructions which are symbolic to a civilization ...
i have no intention of misreading you. none! period!!! i'm trying to understand you ...
for arguments sake, i'm willing to assume that there are 1,000 of you ...
still, i would like you to consider my question, restated above.
i cannot envision anything useful emerging out of this if you aren't willing to reflect upon this question ...

[StarChampagne]

That's an interesting point about the colours. And I like the comparison shots :thumbsup:

I think the colours are blander to give a greater sense of reality. The beige colours make Egypt seem more dusty and hotter.

However, it would be nice to see some colourful Egyptian murals and heiroglyphics and things. I think Atlantis will have a lot of colour, as you can't really make fire dull :)

[pinkangel07]

Yes, I think from the videos we've seen, Egypt looks more hot, more desolate, and more.... sandy...? lol, I would like, if we discover a tomb, for their to be *fabulous* murals on the walls. BUT, I'm easy to please as far as tomb raider goes because I have fun with it and I tend to not derive much from the details/basic landscaping.

[aussie500]

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s214/jiakai/030.jpg

another picture of Egypt

This photo is only that strong in colour because of the light, in full daylight it would look just as devoid of strong colours as Crystal Dynamics work. The culture represented in the Egypt levels looked just fine to me, if they choose a different approach to colour and lighting to what Core design used that is up to them. Nothing wrong with a more realistic approach. Most Egyptian tomb art is only so strongly coloured because they are repainted on a regular basis, do not think the tombs in Anniversary get enough tourists to warrant a paint job

[gsusfrk]

Here are some shots, by Rivendell from TRF.com (http://www.tombraiderforums.com/); obviously the colors in TR1 and in TRA are quite different:

http://i17.tinypic.com/3329w8x.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/3z014d5.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/4h2j3x3.jpg

http://i15.tinypic.com/2ahyulw.jpg

those pics bring back so many memories :D

[Valentine]

This is an interesting topic, with nice pictures!

Nothing wrong with a more realistic approach. Most Egyptian tomb art is only so strongly coloured because they are repainted on a regular basis, do not think the tombs in Anniversary get enough tourists to warrant a paint job

I agree that I don't mind a more realistic approach... to an extent. But this is a game that's about a long jumping Amazon woman who wears a bottomless backpack, so I don't think reality is a priority. :p The lack of color, while realistic, is sort of dull at times. I mean I don't care either way, I'm already in love with just the very idea of this game! But I'd take vivid, breathtaking colours over the realistic ones any day. :D

[Rivendell]

Spectacular thread :thumbsup:

Any game dev team would benefit with you as a researcher for this type of thing! Nice job! :D

[Miss. Croft]

I agree with you Tombcrow. I do think theyre lacking colour. The game is boring without colour. But hopefully theyll read this and put more colour into the game:cool: .

I dont know... but there are things that have been changed aslwell in TRA. I dont like the interactive cutscenes ... I mean i like doing the game without any help. Like pressing O-(Circle) to make lara roll just isnt fun! and i liked pressing triangle to get laras guns out, but now its holding R1 or something (i forget) and then she points her guns and then i cant change the camera around to see her face and her with her guns. But anyway, i think they should put all the colour back into the game;)

[TombCrow]

we should probably assume that CD is capable of designing in glorious color (i.e. look at the Scion and monsters, etc.)
if they are not capable of designing with grand colors then there's no hope whatsoever ...

sooooo, assuming that they are capable of designing in color, as you would like, why do you think that they have chosen not to? :cool:

I don't think that's a matter of "would like", but something that has "been proved" (i.e. look at the Scion and monsters, etc.). Any detailedful problem CD has raised up has all been solved well enough. We've told that we are fully confident in CD's ability, and undoubtedly they have the ability to design the scenes into whatever they like. It's precisely 'cuz they have this ability that we've come here and put forward our suggestions, hoping that they can notice what we've suggested and make some improvements.

From TRL, we can easily see that, CD has spared efforts on the making of polygons, magnificent VFX, various actions, combat skills and so forth. But these are all the "frontground" things. As for what is in the "backgound", that is to say, what's called "backgound atmosphere", they didn't do that successfully enough, which includes the civilization vibe depressed under the dark colors. Perhaps, the experience of making the Soul Reaver is too "heavy" for them. But, in TRA, we were glad to find the improvements of other aspects, only except for the description on cultural features didn't improve that much obviously.

"Why they have chosen not to?" That is just a question CD should think over. However, I don't think of this question as a matter of "why they have chosen not to", but a matter of "why they have not". If u wanna get my suggestion regarding this, besides the words above, I've already given another part of my answer in the posts I've posted, I think.

Actually everything could be done well if they pay enough attention to it.

[TombCrow]

This photo is only that strong in colour because of the light, in full daylight it would look just as devoid of strong colours as Crystal Dynamics work. The culture represented in the Egypt levels looked just fine to me, if they choose a different approach to colour and lighting to what Core design used that is up to them. Nothing wrong with a more realistic approach. Most Egyptian tomb art is only so strongly coloured because they are repainted on a regular basis, do not think the tombs in Anniversary get enough tourists to warrant a paint job

First, I ain't a person who loves nostalgia, and I never demand that CD should use colors in the way that Core Design does. I'm here only to point out one reason why the old TR's can successfully create a wonderful vibe.

Second, the key of the problem is not a matter of whether it is realistic, but a matter of a creation of an atmosphere. To highlight a color which is symbolic for a culture by the proper exaggeration can bring gamers a strong sense as if they themselves were in the game. This is a sub-conscious effect which even gamers themselves may not realize. That's why when it comes to making the photos, videos and paintings regarding Egypt, authors will always choose to create and highlight a hue of khaki on purpose - in order to make their presses more "Egypt". A game is similar to a movie. No doubt, what audiences wanna see in a entertaining movie about archaeology and adventure is surely a beautiful and magnificent scene full of strenth - whether it is real or not.

At the moment, CD's work can be considered "FINE", but, they may be "BETTER".

[TombCrow]

Thank you for all the replies here. Cuz of the language gap between us, that is, to express my ideas in English is really terrific to me, :mad2: so, this may be my last post in this thread.:( But, I'm glad to answer any "question".:)

I don't know if there is anything wrong with my expression, but I'm a supporter for CD, by no means a man who is against them. Otherwise, I wouldn't have spent that much time and that much effort here to work out such a post. I am not criticizing or complaining, but puting forward my suggestion seriously. CD is not only a team who own strong ability, but also a team who always work conscientiously - work so conscientiously that they even discussed "whether Lara will shoot the chickens" - in a few people's view, that may be a little ridiculous too...:p

[StarChampagne]

Thank you for all the replies here. Cuz of the language gap between us, that is, to express my ideas in English is really terrific to me, :mad2: so, this may be my last post in this thread.:( But, I'm glad to answer any "question".:)

I don't know if there is anything wrong with my expression, but I'm a supporter for CD, by no means a man who is against them. Otherwise, I wouldn't have spent that much time and that much effort here to work out such a post. I am not criticizing or complaining, but puting forward my suggestion seriously. CD is not only a team who own strong ability, but also a team who always work conscientiously - work so conscientiously that they even discussed "whether Lara will shoot the chickens" - in a few people's view, that may be a little ridiculous too...:p

You express your ideas very well :) (although 'terrific' - do you mean terrifying?) And you've done a lot of well-thought out research.

Your expression is just fine, and Rivendell got it exactly right: great thread, great work! :thumbsup:

[TombCrow]

although 'terrific' - do you mean terrifying?
Yeah, lol:D
Thank you so much:)

And Rivendell, special thanks to your wonderful shots:)

I come back to say, I am so delighted to see these pictures, enve though I don't know if they are taken from the latest version of the game, or made by Photoshopers who have the same argument as me. But you can not deny that the whole pictures are much better served with this improved color!

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/8357/egypt1ox1.jpg

So, you can image how amazing and attarctive our Tomb Raider world would be when all different cultures were well defined and marked by precise colors, shapes and other symbols!:rasp:

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/4936/tombraideranniversaryscxr8.jpg

[blajdzik]

in July I'll go to Egypt for two weeks and after my holidays I'll tell you what's the true colour of Egypt ;)

[Tiara]

I must agree that the Egypt screenshots are a little too "gray" but in the cutscene video with Natla colors look fine I think :confused:

[rabid metro]

... Cuz of the language gap between us, that is, to express my ideas in English is really terrific to me...
even though you meant terrifying, it really is terrific to read your opinions, expressed wonderfully and coherently.

perhaps, it may be too soon to judge about the general color tone of levels in Anniversary, for these reasons:
1) all we've seen are pre-release images. the game may still be tweaked and hopefully your ideas (tombcrow and associates) will be considered.
2) although very subtle, i think there is a color tone to levels in Legend. the color tone is not very dramatic, which may be the developer's style, but it is there. i think that Ghana, for example, is more lush green than Kazakhstan, which has a colder ice-blue feel to it (above and beyond the obvious reasons). In Peru, Lara's flashback had a different (dreamy) feel to it than the modern day scenes (which also had a different color tone than Ghana or Kazakhstan, etc.).
3) as you've mentioned, the CD team is pushing the limits of current-gen technology but i think the color tone may be a choice and not a design constraint.

if you have any other ideas, please post freely, but don't feel compelled to post. these days, there are far too many "stream of consciousness" postings and not enough reflective and deliberate posts. also, consider the medium- the forums may not be the best place for "interference-free" insightful discussion. best of luck to you and yours ... :)