IF Eidos does manage to "PLAN" for a new LOK

[aquarius_varun]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

MAke a new combat system like God of War. That is how raziel and kain should play like. context sensitive boss battles and like real ruthless killing by kain and raziel like kratos in God of war. The series needs to evolve and this will surely welcome it to newcomers as well. An epic storyline with real high definition cutscenes would help as well ;) .

Main aspect as I said is combat and please eidos...play god of war. It is a game you should all definately play and learn from to make modifications to Lok. :)

[Turaziel]

I think they should use the combat from SR1, but add some stealth elements into it too.

I think context sensitive boss battles are a great idea too. I haven't played God of War, but I enjoyed it in Prince of Persia. It allows you to make some really cool looking, epic fight scenes. Also I t think the combat should be athletic. Kain is capable of remarkable athleticism, although it should focus on brute strength.

Also I think you should be able to use his Dark Gifts in combat too, as well as whenever you want out of combat. It'd be cool to be able to turn into Mist to sneak past people.

[Riovanes]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE

MAke a new combat system like God of War. That is how raziel and kain should play like. context sensitive boss battles and like real ruthless killing by kain and raziel like kratos in God of war. The series needs to evolve and this will surely welcome it to newcomers as well. An epic storyline with real high definition cutscenes would help as well ;) .

Main aspect as I said is combat and please eidos...play god of war. It is a game you should all definately play and learn from to make modifications to Lok. :)

I mean this in the nicest way possible, so please, take it as it's meant...

Any time one game copies another, it fails.

Miserably.

Case in point: Defiance. AKA, "Raziel May Cry," "We Owe Capcom For Stealing DMC's Combat System," etc.

Making a new LoK with a combat system mirroring God of War would cause the same problems Defiance suffered. People would cry ripoff, it wouldn't feel like LoK, and it would tank.

Again.

If CD is pushing a new LoK into the light of day, I hope they do the RIGHT thing, and go back to what made the series good in the first place; more concentration on exploration and plot development, less worrying about inconsequential combat sequences.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

I think a combat system similar to SR or SR2 would be best, and more focus on all the cool things to explore.

[fneh]

i think they need to leave the combat alone and sort out the PUZZLES. :mad2:

If defiance was anything at all like tomb raider legend i'd have been one very happy customer. the SR combat was FINE to me. and the SR camera was PERFECT to me. I really didn't get why either was even changed to begin with. total waste of money if you ask me. they should've spent that money on something more constructive like ORIGINAL music, fixing bugs and some less moronic "find item a and take to slot b" puzzles.


If ANY games should be looked at I'd look in the direction of POP myself. the first POP game had a PERFECT balance of combat and puzzles.

[aquarius_varun]

Well....if anything they should atleast broaden the use of telekinesis. That is the one reason (apart from the marvellous story) that I have played defiance 6 times all the way. I love the bridge combat....you can throw enemies on statues and see them break and the bass was intense..it felt like it was definately stone. Raziel tombstones part was also amazing for the same reason...I used to use enemies conservatively and destroy all the tombstones. I had soo much fun with the combat in defiance. I love the camera as well. I like the camera becos it gave a cinematic feel. I have played SR1 and SR2....but defiance combat still rules....of all telekinesis. That was the key. I notice object telekinesis was not implemented properly... but you can actually use manual telekinesis to lift up objects and pull them to you. Imagine having used some staffs on the wall...telekinesis to pull them and impale an enemy without him realising it.

The characters in defiance are royal but brutal, gothic but respectable. They were very rough and rugged. The reaver especially is a very heavy sword by its look and its concept. The combat should be reflective of its brutality. I loved the initial kain stealth kill during the intro...the neck break and blood drink....that is what I am talking about......the true brutality. lol! A friend of mine had a cringe on her face when she saw that.....now thats called a vampiric essense.

I guess of SR1 combat I like the environment kills. SR2 combat was ok....I liked the concept of using hand combat and other weapons. Maybe all these can be implemented if a new game is made. Stabbing a victim with their bare claws and pulling out the heart.

Well.....I am a normal guy ...not saddistic in any mean :p ...lol! but I am just trying to explain my point.....make the characters regain their true character.

[aquarius_varun]

every now and then devs have to reevaluate a series and reconsider. Thats waht CD did with TRL and it worked amazing. Time for Lok. Devs should play other games for ideas and style impressions.

watch this::

http://www.gametrailers.com/umwatcher.php?id=41210

NOW THAT IS CALLED BRUTALITY..that is called action, that is called fun...kratos ripping off the head off that dog.........the soul reaver is a mean piece of engineering. Put it to use....restore its reputation.

Do not be afraid for a M rating. Gears of War has sold millions of copies already. God of war has sold millions as well. As long as the game offers...there will always be a fanbase.

[The DarkOne]

NOW THAT IS CALLED BRUTALITY..that is called action, that is called fun...kratos ripping off the head off that dog.........the soul reaver is a mean piece of engineering. Put it to use....restore its reputation.


BO1 was brutal enough: burning bodies, skin melting, organs imploding, flesh stripped from bone, flying bloody body parts and many more.

Imagine all this and more done in next generation graphics, that's where the LoK combat needs to go.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

BO1 was brutal enough: burning bodies, skin melting, organs imploding, flesh stripped from bone, flying bloody body parts and many more.

Imagine all this and more done in next generation graphics, that's where the LoK combat needs to go.

Yeah, I love the disgusting ways you can kill people in Blood Omen. I want them to return to that.

[aquarius_varun]

Hey ! I didn't play BO1 .. I won't complain as long as they make kain as badass as kratos. :) Put that soul reaver to use....put the vampiric skills to use. :D

[Vampmaster]

Oh, how about this for a TK move. The implode from BO1, but done Darth Vader style using the telekinisis so he picks an enemy up and crushes them until they pop. A lot of the BO1 moves would be cool for going back to the series roots. Oh, and I remember thinking how under-used the time stands still in spectral thing was. Kain has his time spell again so he should use that in the puzzles too. I also miss how in SR1 the room itself was a puzzle. Like there was this one room in SR1 where you burn away struts holding the roof up and the entire floor gives way.

[The DarkOne]

Like there was this one room in SR1 where you burn away struts holding the roof up and the entire floor gives way.

I don't remember that one, where was it :scratch: ?

[Paradoxical Life]

just before the first boss :)

[The DarkOne]

Yeah, now I remember its the melchiah elevator room, I gotta go back and play LoK again, thnx.

[TheWatcher]

Do not be afraid for a M rating. Gears of War has sold millions of copies already. God of war has sold millions as well. As long as the game offers...there will always be a fanbase.I don't think Eidos/CD is afraid of an M rating. With the exception of SR1, every game in the LoK series has had an M rating. While I adore God of War (I'll probably buy 2 within a week of its release), its entire reason for being is its violence. Without the bloodshed there would be no GoW. That's not the case with LoK. It's built around the story. While violence is crucial to the success of any LoK installment, it needs to remain about Kain and his destiny. That much I'll give Riovanes, Defiance got away from the story a bit too much in favor of the combat. If there is a LoK6, hopefully it'll swing back the other way.

[aquarius_varun]

I know what you mean. I did like SR1's boss combats which were more puzzle based. But perhaps they can do it like God of War 1 and 2 style with the context sensitive boss battles.

[Binky24]

I find it curious to compare statements such as Riovanes'

If CD is pushing a new LoK into the light of day, I hope they do the RIGHT thing, and go back to what made the series good in the first place; more concentration on exploration and plot development, less worrying about inconsequential combat sequences.

with Malus' in the Can Kain be saved? thread

2.More gameplay and less story.
LoK is known for its great story but what happened to the gameplay? It left and was substituted in with monotonous tasks, for instance getting 10 different elements for the soul reaver. After the second time its not as fun. Make each part of the game fresh and have different objectives for once. Also, redefine the genre you choose to make the next LoK for. I don't want a second rate Zelda or Devil May Cry game. Put some effort into the game engine and not the graphics. Bringing back actual boss battles would be a welcomed addition. Cd, just a suggestion: having a "life bar" on the top of the screen does not constitute an enemy being a boss battle...its just a glorified enemy.

and finally fneh's, from this thread again

i think they need to leave the combat alone and sort out the PUZZLES.

So, in short, the developers should concentrate more on the story, except that they should also totally revamp the combat and at the same time concentrate more on the puzzles? Ah yes - and make sure that the game has proper length, unlike Legend, right? :lol:

In my extremely humble opinion, since I haven't played any games recently, what should be done is
(1) Start from the story. Whatever comes next should be subject to it.
(2) But, on the other hand, make sure that there is place for a couple of bosses in the story.
(3) And for a couple of puzzles, too - I don't really want puzzles that are so extremely artificial like in SR2. I actually liked how one of the puzzles in Defiance was that I needed to find a weak point in a wall to break it to get into another room. I didn't really like the 'darken the light orb/lighten the dark orb/light sconces' type.
I think that my idea is similar to what Vampmaster wrote about here:
Like there was this one room in SR1 where you burn away struts holding the roof up and the entire floor gives way.
It's just... the puzzles ought to make some elemental sense. You fall into a trap, are suddenly shut off from Nosgoth by a large Warp Gate (Shield, perhaps? :)) and can't teleport out. You have to search for an exit... And so on.
(4) And in combat, I think that there should be more variation in the enemies. Some should, perhaps, be immune to some types of attacks? So that there would be essentially three tiers of enemies - the simplest ones, the cannon fodder; the middle tier, which can only be killed using some methods - and the highest one, the bosses, who may only be killed using the very special method.
(5) That said... Hmm. In RPGs, I always plays a combination fighter/mage - and so, I'd love to see some SR1 Glyphs-type attacks. I don't really care for stealth, but I suppose that some people may. So, variety is the spice of life: give Kain the ability to fight with bare claws, with the Reaver and as a wolf; some Glyphs for those like me who like flashy stuff, and some stealth for those who don't. :) I think that this would even be enough, and there wouldn't even have to be any other weapons. (Yes, I know I'm asking for criticism here. But for me, Kain is about the Reaver and the claws, and, possibly, the wolf. I don't need him wielding a Hylden turbo-hyper-whatever-pulse-Glyph rifle.)
(5a) Caveat: But this should be subject to the story, too. If, let's say, there is a playable Hylden in the game, by all means give him/her that turbo-hyper-whatever-pulse-Glyph rifle. :D
(6) But for brutality, I don't care. The BO1 was good, but it was good only because it wasn't graphic. For me.

Ahh... Isn't it great, being an armchair critic? :lol:

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

IAhh... Isn't it great, being an armchair critic? :lol:


Heh, yeah I know. It's easy to say "Why don't they...", but actually making this game sure wouldn't be as easy as us typing up our huge wish lists.

[Binky24]

Heh, yeah I know. It's easy to say "Why don't they...", but actually making this game sure wouldn't be as easy as us typing up our huge wish lists.

Yes. That's precisely what I meant. It's impossible to satisfy everyone's needs. And even when, through compromise, people manage to satisfy 80% of everyone's needs, it's usually those 20% different for everyone, that everyone concentrates on. Ah, humanity!

Still. There is that whole long thread of what people would love in and wish for the next game, and some of the ideas there sound pretty good. Perhaps a sampling of the thread to see which ideas repeat most often--

Otoh, it's the role of the designer not to bow to the demands of the people, but to add something unexpected, isn't it?

[fneh]

Yes. That's precisely what I meant. It's impossible to satisfy everyone's needs. And even when, through compromise, people manage to satisfy 80% of everyone's needs, it's usually those 20% different for everyone, that everyone concentrates on. Ah, humanity!

Still. There is that whole long thread of what people would love in and wish for the next game, and some of the ideas there sound pretty good. Perhaps a sampling of the thread to see which ideas repeat most often--

Otoh, it's the role of the designer not to bow to the demands of the people, but to add something unexpected, isn't it?



no, it's the role of the director to meet his audience's needs. I doubt many director's primary audience is the fanboys (tho FF advent children is w/o a doubt the ultimate fanboy movie). It doesn't matter how good your movie or game is if you don't meet the target audience you was going for originally. I'd expect a LOK game to be a 15-21 target audience

[Cryonaut]

I love the fighting in Defiance and found it rather frustrating at times in the other two SR games. It's definitely what the series needed to make it better but at the same time, they sacrificed many of the puzzles that made the other two fun. What they definitely need to do is find a balance between fighting and exploration/puzzles.

[Binky24]

no, it's the role of the director to meet his audience's needs. I doubt many director's primary audience is the fanboys (tho FF advent children is w/o a doubt the ultimate fanboy movie). It doesn't matter how good your movie or game is if you don't meet the target audience you was going for originally. I'd expect a LOK game to be a 15-21 target audience

That's why I wrote 'add something unexpected'. Take a bit of the old to remain familiar enough and not alienate the fan base. Add something new and unexpected to avoid Riovanes' accusals of copying from other games--

Take LotR. If it had been a direct sequel to the Hobbit, it would have involved Bilbo going on another adventure with the dwarves, aye? Instead, Tolkien took a very minor feature of the original book - the ring - and produced a six-book epic. LOL

Without the unexpected turn at the break of SR1/SR2, I think that LOK's story would have been much, much simpler. Of course, that would have probably up the sales, but.

It's funny how much of LOK can ultimately be put down to the budget cuts at the end of SR1. :p

[The Hylden]

I don't think Eidos/CD is afraid of an M rating. With the exception of SR1, every game in the LoK series has had an M rating.

Actually, SR1 had an M rating for the Dreamcast, interestingly enough. I don't have that version, just checked online because I was like, "Soul Reaver 1 had an M rating, didn't??" Oddly enough, the Playstation version *is* T for teen :/ Very strange, what with all of the blood, exploding bodies, grinding up bodies like Melchiah's, burning alive things, including Zephon and Dumah... I'm sorry, but someone screwed the pooch on that one, as the sayin goes.:p There's no way that game should be rated T. I'd have to search for my PC version to see if it's rated M or not, but that sure is odd...

It's funny how much of LOK can ultimately be put down to the budget cuts at the end of SR1.

Everyone mentions those but fail to mention almost just as much has been cut from the other games as well past it. SR2 had the rest of the fonts cut, which is why we only got 4 of the possible 7, as well as other stuff. Defiance had cut from it Vorador's explanation for being alive in BO2, explanations for the basins of SR2 being destroyed by the EG missing, and a bunch of other stuff again. They've all been cut a good amount, which is partially why we have had these cliff-hangers for so long. I actually like that aspect -- the episodic nature of LoK -- providing they finish it:p Hopefully if they do, they won’t have to endure the same level of time and budget constraints. If Eidos lets CD do one more, just let them have the time and resources to make the best, most complete ending possible, as they envision it, without forcing their hand. If they do that to them with the same level they’ve done it in the past, then the next game will feel incomplete, most likely, and that would suck.

[Binky24]

Yes... between the SR1 cut locations, the SR2 cut glyphs (or weren't they cut?), and whatever is needed to explain Vorador, that's probably half of a game already. (The concepts/story, that is.) Le sigh.

[dumah's wraith]

Actually, SR1 had an M rating for the Dreamcast, interestingly enough. I don't have that version, just checked online because I was like, "Soul Reaver 1 had an M rating, didn't??" Oddly enough, the Playstation version *is* T for teen :/ Very strange, what with all of the blood, exploding bodies, grinding up bodies like Melchiah's, burning alive things, including Zephon and Dumah... I'm sorry, but someone screwed the pooch on that one, as the sayin goes.:p There's no way that game should be rated T. I'd have to search for my PC version to see if it's rated M or not, but that sure is odd...




Yup. When you consider 15 rated films, they have a lot of explosions and fights but everybody is able to get up, but a GAME with people getting shreddded, impaled, burned alive and dipped in water-(acid, for vampires), it's T rated? Hmmm...maybe it's just more vivid in films because they've better graphics.

[Turaziel]

Its because things are rated higher when you're killing human-like enemies. Thats why alot of games sometimes put weird coloured blood in them, and why SR1 (for PSX) was only a T

[The Hylden]

Well, it wasn't for Dreamcast, as I stated. I just think someone messed up. Blood and gore is blood and gore, and there are humans in SR1 you can kill that will spill a hell of a lot of it, if you do not choose to be a savior, or even if you do, in Zephon's lair you have to kill those humans and leave them cooling in a pool of their own blood:p. Not to mention a human-looking character, Raziel, burning alive full-on in the opening sequence, lol, with his entire body ravaged by the end of it, sure doesn't sound like Teen rating material to me.:p

Zombie and monster games with lots of blood and violence also get mature ratings. Someone definitely screwed that one up.

For the record: my PC version is also rated T. Wacky stuff...

[fneh]

it's considered "fantasy violence". that's how they got away with throwing human heads over the walls in LOTR return of the king (among other things).

[Turaziel]

I knew there was a term for it but couldn't recall it.

Games like Manhunt depict real, likely violence which could actually be replicated, whereas most fantasy games don't. SR1 was a T for PS1 and PC because it wasn't likely to be targeted as inciting copycat behaviour.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

I knew there was a term for it but couldn't recall it.

Games like Manhunt depict real, likely violence which could actually be replicated, whereas most fantasy games don't. SR1 was a T for PS1 and PC because it wasn't likely to be targeted as inciting copycat behaviour.


Nuh uh. Ever since that game I run around impaling people and eating their souls because I'm an impressionable youth.

[Turaziel]

I thought I was the only one. Before you started taking your revenge on the society that shunned you did you sit in the bath screaming as the water burnt away your flesh?

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Yeah man, that was when I realized that I had turned into a vampire, but since I was already in the water I burnt up and became a wraith too, man. It was cool. Now I never take baths or showers because they hurt. I can't seem to get any chicks though! I don't know why!

[GawdDawgs]

Here is my thoughts for the next LoK and the series in general, so bare with me, lol:

The series has always tried to balance new comers and fans alike and has always struggled with this. Why? Because ever since SR1 each game has relied on previous games to understand the story. BO2 is an exception, but new people wouldn't know that when they read that "2" in the title. SR1, SR2, and Defiance is essentially a trilogy in itself. Where we are left at in the series is a way to bring in new fans much easier as well as please old fans. Unless plans for the story was going to take a different approach, I see the end of Defiance as an excellent opportunity to continue the story and expand it without HAVING to play 5 previous games (how daunting is that to new comers?) to get it.

That being said, Kain should go to the future. What more can he do in the past? His actions in the past should ultimately change the future, correct? He altered his future in BO1, and he's at a similar point now at the end of Defiance, so he can travel to the future (post-SR1 era) and discover a rather different Nosgoth. I'll save my ideas for where the story should go, but I definitely think the Razielim should be a part of it, as a nod to those Raziel fans, and because we never see one trace of them in SR1. (Kain merely hinting at genocide doesn't necessarily mean truth).

I'm a little confused as to why GoW is brought up here. GoW borrows heavily from DMC, which is what Defiance's combat is based off of. I really enjoyed Defiances combat, but it wasn't perfect. Keep the combat system and expand upon it. LoK should not be a pure action game. It should be an action-RPG. That being said, let's bring back things that made BO1 so great: a variety of weapons, spells you can assign, armor, and so on and so forth. If they don't want players to breeze through the game with such a powerful weapon as the SR, then put a price on using it like they did in BO1 - have it drain your mana and/or life little by little, or something to that extent. Boss battles should also be here - boss battles that actually matter. Not just "random big beast" thrown in for good measure. Variety is the key here, people.

They need a new camera as well - a hybrid of cinematic combat camera (Defiance) and exploring camera (SR1/2). But if they can only go with one, go with SR2's. During battles, the camera often pans outward so you can see more, and this could totally work with Defiance's combat engine. Seriously...the fixed placement camera was not the best choice. Its not as terrible as everyone makes it out to be, but its nothing like DMC or GoW's fixed placement cameras.

Last but not least, GO BACK TO AN OPEN WORLD OF EXPLORATION. I remember before Defiance came out, one of the devs "confirmed" that you could return to old areas in Defiance, ala SR1. But they didn't say the game was level based. You go from point A to point B. Where's the open world? The exploration? The secret areas that give you powerups that you don't really need but can find anyways? I remember stumbling across Nupraptor's Retreat in SR1 and thought that was the coolest thing. That was one of Defiance's biggest disappointments to me. The "sandbox" design is something that SR1 excelled in, and games like Grand Theft Auto and its countless clones made popular. Why they never went back to it is beyond me. CD, bring this element back. LoK was always more like Zelda than DMC. It's time to implement the best elements of both.

One more thing: the puzzles. I think all of the games have had good and bad puzzles (BO2's being the worst though, imo). But I think if we had more of the ones like that in Tomb Raider Legend, a lot more would be satisfied.

And that's my long winded thoughts of the series. XD It's easy to be a critic, that's for sure. I love this series, though, despite its flaws.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

I also miss how in SR1 the room itself was a puzzle. Like there was this one room in SR1 where you burn away struts holding the roof up and the entire floor gives way.


Have you ever played Ico?

[The-director]

Just adding my thoughts on the combat. I think players should use the Balance Emblem as a way to sort of pick what fighting style they want. Sort of DMC 3 style.

Conflict / Flame - Focus on actually using the reaver hand-to-hand

Dimension - Acrobatics (and general showing off)

Energy / Lightning - Ranged attacks (perhaps energy beams or what not)

Time - Stealth

Balance - A mix of all fore

The other fore undiscovered fragments (nature, states, death and mind) could act in similar way to the glyphs from SR1. (not compulsary but hidden)

(i know this is a two month old thread but i recently joined and couldn't help but notice this)

[Vampmaster]

Eww, no. Defiance already had too much DMC in it to begin with.

[Omega]

Whilst I appreciate that the "uber cool" fighting moves attracted a new array of people to the series, there's more to the games than just DMC-esque battles.

Having said that, I think Defiance got a good mix between fighting and story, and any additions, such as stealth and DMC-like abilities would just be a terrible, terrible thing.

For example, Soul Reaver 2 was personally my favourite in the series; as it featured heavily on the story, without a huge emphisis on battles. However, I know some people didn't like the combat system because it was "too basic".

If we add stealth, it would be like a mesh between Metal Gear Solid and Splinter Cell. Remember, Kain is an overly confident Vampire, and like Raziel, he can't be killed; so why would he be sneaking around?

If we add acrobatics, it will be too much like Prince of Persia.

Both are not hugely bad ideas, but where's the originality?

I remember people crying havoc over the DMC fighting style and camera angles, and to add features that help make other games (acrobatics in PoP) then people will be bored because we've all seen it before.

[The-director]

Okay, point taken. However I do think the Balance emblem should feature more in the next game. Also I think i like combat best in SR1 because killing each enemy was like a puzzle. You had to incapacitate them, then find someway to kill them, you know like finding some water or fire?

[Binky24]

I hated having to throw those vampires into water, or fire, or whatever, in SR1. :D And I don't enjoy the idea of stealth Kain, either.

My Kain and my Raziel always go heads-on into places (which is part of why I found BO2 so damn annoying). They adore destroying things. Using the Fire and Air Reavers in Vorador's Mansion was a great stress reliever: bzzt! And all the annoying Hylden are hanging off candelabra and whatnot. :D

So, if anything, I vouch for the Reaver and some Glyphs of Mass Destruction. I don't really care for the personal touch. ;)

[Omega]

Now the Glyphs were an awesome idea, and I'm midly upset that they didn't feature in SR2 or Defiance.

Bring back the Glyphs, says I!

[aquarius_varun]

Whilst I appreciate that the "uber cool" fighting moves attracted a new array of people to the series, there's more to the games than just DMC-esque battles.

Having said that, I think Defiance got a good mix between fighting and story, and any additions, such as stealth and DMC-like abilities would just be a terrible, terrible thing.

For example, Soul Reaver 2 was personally my favourite in the series; as it featured heavily on the story, without a huge emphisis on battles. However, I know some people didn't like the combat system because it was "too basic".

If we add stealth, it would be like a mesh between Metal Gear Solid and Splinter Cell. Remember, Kain is an overly confident Vampire, and like Raziel, he can't be killed; so why would he be sneaking around?

If we add acrobatics, it will be too much like Prince of Persia.

Both are not hugely bad ideas, but where's the originality?

I remember people crying havoc over the DMC fighting style and camera angles, and to add features that help make other games (acrobatics in PoP) then people will be bored because we've all seen it before.


Kain absolutely reminds me of Kratos in terms of the battle abilities. Ruthless....and brutal. Now this is a fighting style kain needs.....also raziel as well. :p ... maybe raziel some more manevourable moves .. compared to kain who is brute force unleashed. man!! if there was only a new Lok based itn the fighting from God of war ii ;) and the already presnt epic lok storyline ....
just like how they won back tomb raider fans, lok will be reborn. :)

[Omega]

Have we hit a wall, or do all games have to have a <insert X game here> based battle-system?

I'm pretty sure the talented chaps and chapettes at Crystal Dynamics could come up with something quasi-original!

[WraithStar]

I vote for a BO1-style system adapted for 3D combat. I don't want the next LOK game to focus exclusively on combat, but I do miss the tarot card abilities and the wolf form. The game should not have so many enemies that I get bored and run past them (I thought SR2 and Defiance had too much pointless combat) but when I do have to fight, give me a bloody, gory, satisfying reason for doing so :D Also, I know tarot cards would seem stupid in a graphically more realistic game, so having them implemented like the dark gifts in BO2 would be just fine (although I'd prefer mana to rage).

Having TK attacks like in Defiance would be nice as well. I don't have any real problems with Defiance's combat aside from the feeling that there was simply too much of it. The games with similar combat (DMC, GoW, Prince of Persia, BloodRayne 2, etc.) have at least as much fighting, but the characters have a lot more variety in their fighting styles (whether that's due to more combos or different weapons). I don't want future LoK games to blindly mimic other series. I do however want all of the old variety from BO1 back, along with a combat frequency similar to what was in BO2. Despite having a more basic combat system than Defiance, I didn't get bored with BO2's combat because it was well balanced with exploration and puzzles. I know BO2 didn't have anywhere near as much exploration as SR1, or as many puzzles as SR2. I still think it was well-designed, although I would certainly encourage future games to have the level of exploration from SR1 :D As for puzzles, I really don't want to see any more forges, so I'd go with more environmental type puzzles like in SR1 or BO2 (by environmental, I mean it was obvious I had to do something, but I could reasonably believe that the puzzle wasn't created simply to block Kain or Raziel's progress).

A few people have mentioned Legend so far as an example. I was rather disappointed by Legend's puzzles because they all seemed to involve pressure plates or the grapple. Anniversary looks much more promising and, depending on whether that game lives up to my expectations, I would prefer for TRA to be the new model of puzzle design and exploration :) Also, I may be alone in this, but I enjoyed the "find-the-item" and "change-the-orb" puzzles from Defiance. Actually, now that I think about it, if the puzzles in Defiance and Legend had been switched, I may have enjoyed both games more. The grapple puzzles would be better suited to TK, and the need to find items is an integral piece of TR. In any case, TRA looks good and I hope LoK6 is on the way :)

[Vampmaster]

Pentalich of Tarot = Balance Glyph
Possession = Mind Glyph (Must work on all non bosses!)
Wolf/Bat/Mist = States Glyph (Mist can cross water like BO1, Wolf and Bat are controlable)
Spirit Death = Death Glyph
Slow Time = Time Glyph
Font of Putresence = Nature Glyph
Teleport/Displace flesh = Dimension Glyph
Inspire Hate = Conflict Glyph
Lightning = Energy Glyph

Two glyphs can be equipped at a time and add side effects to the reaver and TK in they match up the elements with the corresponding pillars. (Like how two guardians had one element between them.) Spells should be used in puzzles to set up elaborate chain reactions that rearrange a large amount of an area.

Rapidly tighten grip with TK = Implode

Autoface+Jump+HeavyAttack (from a distance) = Jump Attack from BO2

[garbagefanuk]

If you look at combat in SR1 and SR2 you'll notice it was meant simply there as an abstract health system, you kill to feed so you can continue exploring and puzzle solving and with the story. None of this Defiance business with inane forced fights every 5 seconds. I can guarantee i can bypass 90% of all the vampires in SR1 where as i'm foced to fight 90% of the mobs in Defiance for simple progression.

A terrible system with the best of intentions to try and spice it up for this new geneation of crazy kis playing their awesome God of War's and repetative Devil May Cry's.

GoW's major factor was its excellent story and puzzles. The violence was there simply as humour :)

[TempySmurf]

GOW is proof that the antihero makes money. GOW made money because of game balance and putting enough effort into doing it right. It wasn't just about the storyline, it wasn't just about blood. It was the complete package. The SR arch storyline is pretty much finished. Focus on the storyline first and everything else second can be put to a close. A new LOK could easily compete with GOW with enough effort on the developers part. GOW doesn't really offer a new gaming style, except for the timed button press during battle, what it did was combine several different gaming styles and combined them together in a way that made sense. LOK needs and could easily offer what GOW brought, a well rounded, polished, intense gaming experience.

[dumah's wraith]

I hated having to throw those vampires into water, or fire, or whatever, in SR1. :D And I don't enjoy the idea of stealth Kain, either.

My Kain and my Raziel always go heads-on into places (which is part of why I found BO2 so damn annoying). They adore destroying things. Using the Fire and Air Reavers in Vorador's Mansion was a great stress reliever: bzzt! And all the annoying Hylden are hanging off candelabra and whatnot. :D

So, if anything, I vouch for the Reaver and some Glyphs of Mass Destruction. I don't really care for the personal touch. ;)


I loved those environment kills. The way you couldn't just beat up everyone in sight gave a real sense of power to the enemies. My personal favourite is carrying a Dumahim to the abyss and throwing it in.

Stealth in BO2 was a lifesaver, because I couldn't get the hang of blocking.

[WraithStar]

Pentalich of Tarot = Balance Glyph
Possession = Mind Glyph (Must work on all non bosses!)
Wolf/Bat/Mist = States Glyph (Mist can cross water like BO1, Wolf and Bat are controlable)
Spirit Death = Death Glyph
Slow Time = Time Glyph
Font of Putresence = Nature Glyph
Teleport/Displace flesh = Dimension Glyph
Inspire Hate = Conflict Glyph
Lightning = Energy Glyph

Two glyphs can be equipped at a time and add side effects to the reaver and TK in they match up the elements with the corresponding pillars. (Like how two guardians had one element between them.) Spells should be used in puzzles to set up elaborate chain reactions that rearrange a large amount of an area.

Rapidly tighten grip with TK = Implode

Autoface+Jump+HeavyAttack (from a distance) = Jump Attack from BO2

Excellent idea :D The only thing I have to add is that the long jump should be manual. Raziel had the crouch-jump when we jump while crouching, so I think Kain's long jump should be triggered by doing the same thing. Not having pre-determined long jump locations would greatly add to the sense of exploration :) I liked the targetting reticle for the long jumps in BO2. I also like the idea of a preset long jump distance. I'm thinking maybe if we crouch and jump, it's a standard-sized long jump, and if we crouch, press aim, and then jump we get to position exactly where Kain will land. The jump attack should be triggered the way you said, though, without having to position the reticle onto an enemy (although if we did position the reticle on an enemy, that should also trigger the jump attack, but it shouldn't be necessary to do it that way).

[Vampmaster]

The main think I was trying to point out with the jump was that it doubled as an attack when you were autofacing an enemy, but was simpler to use that having to go into a menu and then manually aim it. That's what I originally meant when I suggested it for Defiance, however comparing it to a move in DMC must have given too many other people too many ideas.

Yright about the long jump being manual except for when it's being used as an attack. For attacks, it should be as simple as possible to perform (using autoface) and probably a bit shorter range so you can't miss your aim by too far.

I'd add to the controls you suggested, by suggesting that adding autoface to the crouch and jump would cause Kain to autotarget the enemy, as in Kain had used the BO2 jumping attack expect the move can be finished sooner by hitting one of the attack buttons. Dribbling enemies and the mid-air combos in defiance, seemed a bit silly. More realistic would be that enemies hit in mid-air just fall straight down or away from Kain. It would make the Soul Reaver feel more powerfull too, which it should anyway now that it's back to

Also, I don't think a seperate button was needed for manual TK aim. All manual aiming for long jump, telekinisis and possession can be done from the 1st person view. So that would free up a button to use for the jumping stuff or maybe L3 could be for entering 1st person view and R3 could be the one for firing the projectile. I'll have to check again what the controls are. I've not played defiance in ages.

[omnipotente666]

I have the best of the ideas, I DONT CARE IF SOMEBODY STEAL IT, i just want to see this great game, maybe SOUL REAVER FUSION, so after defiance raziel sacrifice himself, and he is in that soul reaver 4 times more powerful, the eyes in the sword are brilliant and have that spectral aura, so imagine a new game, EVERYBODY WANT TO SEE RAZIEL and that can be possible if we make this game playable whit the two characters at the same time, kain can find some way to get raziel out of the sword for a while so raziel can go to the spectral world or underwater and use his abilities ,and then kain can transport where raziel is with his mystical link, raziel have to be like a special power because he has to keep connected to the sword when hes out, and when he's inside, gives to kain the ultimate soul reaver.

Kain have to bee tha main character, the pillars not matter any more because the hylden will be complete exterminated by the guardian of balance. maybe kain kills his past version and stay in the past, after all he is a kain of another time line, but have to be only one to dont create a paradox.

even the game can include something never seen in LOK SR, a two player mode, raziel out of the sword and kain whit a soul reaver not so powerful, fighting together a lot of enemies.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

The only way I'd accept a new LoK with Raziel would either be the Vampire Raziel idea, or my own idea where we play as Raziel from a different timeline, traveling between all the "dead" timelines of the series. He would start from an alternate version of the original Soul Reaver for example. Of course, this is more an excuse to revisit the battle against the Legions of the Nemesis, to finally go back to Dark Eden, and to take on each Pillar Guardian in themed "dungeons" (I would love a freaky Eternal Darkness-like Nupraptor's Retreat!). Yeah, I know there's no chance of this actually happening, but it would be fun I think.

[babifrence]

Hi Peeps,

Im just gonna make this short and sweet. I have completed God of War I and II. The sequel does the first one a great deal of credit to the original story and even greater credit to the combat system. I dont want them to rip off existing fight systems, but even if they do - I wouldnt care as long as it was fun.

To be perfectly honest, when the Defiance combat system came out, I wasnt crying out DMC although in places it felt a lot like it. Raziels combat was poorer than Kains as getting hit by the Raziel's enemy types would fire projectiles more regularly than Kain, which stopped a combo from even starting let alone continuing. I do love the soul reaver multi-stabbing combo a blatent DMC rip off from the 1st and 2nd game. Who cares, its LoK.

A God of War combat rip would be a compliment to Sony in my opinion. But as Riovanes mentioned earlier, its much more important to focus on story and the puzzles than a really good fight system. The story is the main reason we are all still tuned in for more. Defiance for me wasnt a let down, just a prelude into what happens next. I hope CD/Eidos take a leaf out of Ubisofts book and somewhat revamp the final installment like Ubi did with the transition of Sands of Time to Warrior Within.


PEACE OUT !!!

PS So much for a short and sweet response :p.