Sad Chronology

[vampire][vorador]

This is Crystal Dynamics work for the next two years according to Eidos 2006 Anual Report:

2007:

"During the 2007 financial year we will release Tomb Raider: Legend on the Nintendo Gamecube, DS and Nintendo Game Boy Advance (“GBA”) platforms. In the second half of the financial year we plan to launch an Anniversary edition of Tomb Raider, celebrating over ten years of the legendary Lara Croft."

2008:

"Our 2008 products will include new versions of Tomb Raider (including a PS3 version) and many of our otherkey franchises."

"The Group has also invested in a number of products for 2008 onwards including Tomb Raider 8 (...)"

"We also plan new franchises, including completely new products from both Crystal Dynamics (developers of Tomb Raider)(...)"

No year in particular:

"Focusing internal studios around a key owned franchise (for example Tomb Raider at Crystal Dynamics and Hitman at Io Interactive). These franchises provide a base to studio profitability which will be supplemented with new franchises as the studios develop."

So, they are probably going to exploit Tomb Raider series until no one buys the game. If we're lucky, when that time comes (whenever that is...) we'll see another Legacy of Kain game...:mad:

[fneh]

"and many of our otherkey franchises."


while i honestly don't expect to see another LOK title made, that sounds like a glimmer of hope to me. I'd say LOK was on that list somewhere but it does look like CD are going to be busy making a LOT of tomb rider games over the next few years. I still don't even have legend.. /shrugs

[Edge of the Coin]

That pretty much makes it look like if we don't hear anything by 2008, all we'll be hearing about it that hoe, Laura Croft... And yeah, the real fans of that series are going to get sick of the over-publication and exploitation of the game pretty soon. Then maybe I won't have hear the words "Tomb Raider" anymore. And hopefully, they'll be replaced with "Legacy of Kain" as long as they don't sell it out as a movie to anyone like Peter Jackson or George Lucas (killers of storyline in favor of special effects)... Like they did with Tomb Raider (awful movies! really awful).

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Hee hee. You didn't like the Lord of the Rings movies? I thought they were pretty faithful to the books, even though stuff had to be taken out. And now I have to deal with LOTR "fans" who don't know who Tom Bombadil is. Wannabes!

[Gate-7]

Im very mad :mad:
Let eidos produce only tr and hitman games.
They have one of the best story in the market and dont take advance of it.

Sure lok series has not so good gameplay(for me its perfect) but they must sit down and find how they can revamp the series gameplay wise as they did with tr after the failure of angel of darkness.

However im still hoping that one day i will play lok in playstaiton 3.

If eidos dont plan to release another game then why dont they give the franchice to another company like sk(who along with cd made blood omen) as eidos did with soul reaver back then.

Do you think sk whould be intrested of that?

[Lexluther]

This is a dam crying shame... Their going to ware the market out with tomb raider and milk it for all they can :mad2: but no lok? Lok is one of the best series i seen. Their putting all their eggs in one basket with tomb raider.

[Paradoxical Life]

[vorador;604379']
"We also plan new franchises, including completely new products from both Crystal Dynamics (developers of Tomb Raider)(...)"
!?!?!??!?!?!?
Didn't anybody notice that!?
We are mad that CD are busy with TR games and hoping that they will stop making TRs and continue LoK............and what - new TR games AND some new products :mad2:
so they have the time and people two make two different games at the same time.....but that doesn't include LoK............ OMG they really abandoned us! :( :mad: :mad2:

[fneh]

Am i the only person that laughed when someone said LOK needs a reVAMP?

[Lexluther]

Yeh they sold lok out for tomb raider this is lame. ill tell you whats more lame then that is they won't tell the fanbase they will not be another lok so we can keep hopeing why do that if their is not going to be another lok eidos come out and tell us for god sakes. Theirs nothing wrong with but lok is better then tomb raider.

[Raziel67]

Sorry this has been building up for years.

These guys at EDIOT Centre, sorry Edios need to seriously need to WAKE UP.

Before I completly loose the plot let me put it simple terms. Tomb Raider up against Legacy of Kain this has to be some joke. :scratch: Legacy of Kain wins hands down every time.

STORY LINE : Tomb Raider :lol:
STORY LINE : Legacy of Kain Very rich and well thought out :thumbsup:

I could go on but i'm to mad to. If Edios could for just 1 second stop thinking about promoting such a lame game like TR, ie CASHING IN **** and promot something which is superier in just about every way then they might just relieze that they have been backing the wrong hoarse :mad:

[fneh]

I can understand why you're all angry but personally, i think they're making the right decision. Maybe they are working on more TR titles than the market would like to see. but let's face it; there's NOTHING that could make LOK sales even close to a flop TR title. angel of darkness speaks for itself there..

If you're that bothered about story over gameplay go to your local library. You'll find hundreds of books with much richer stories than LOK.


Eidos is a BUSINESS. They're going to do what makes them the most money. they're not a fanboy charity. (afterall they got 5 games out of the first SR game just cos they were too lazy to finish each one and then STILL didn't complete the story). It's only a video game. It's not like your wife left you for someone double her age or anything...:rolleyes:

[Raziel67]

Sure there are better stories in the library but Edios havn't made games out of all of them.

What Lexluther said is spot on and just shows how shallow minded Edios/CD has become, they come up with something as great as LOK then somebody gets and all that goes out of the window.

[Smoke_Z]

[vorador;604379']

2008:



"We also plan new franchises, including completely new products from both Crystal Dynamics (developers of Tomb Raider)(...)"

No year in particular:

"Focusing internal studios around a key owned franchise (for example Tomb Raider at Crystal Dynamics and Hitman at Io Interactive). These franchises provide a base to studio profitability which will be supplemented with new franchises as the studios develop."



No new LOK game specifically... but yeah, TR has a certain level of <some word related to prestige or reputation... it's known by outsiders.>

However, the thing that was stunting the growth of the LOK fanbase, how SR2 and Defiance are so dependant on the other games.... That problem is fixed with a new title. They just need to pick a new franchise that will appeal to us.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Let's make sure we're using appropriate forum terminology and watching the innuendo.

Thanks.

[Raziel67]

Sorry Umah :o I just got a bit frustrated with the whole LOK and TR thing.

Sorry again.:)

[Lexluther]

yes sorry as well....just upset as well

[Smoke_Z]

People are upset elsewhere as well.

Did anyone catch that one thing? The more they delay, the more that is going to happen.

And if you have no clue what I'm talking about, count yourself lucky.

[TheWatcher]

I honestly believe the best thing for Eidos to do is sell the franchise (assuming they can even find a buyer), since it's obvious at this point they've written it off as unprofitable and want nothing more to do with it.

The best way to show Eidos and CD what a mistake they've made by abandoning it is if it ever shows up again in any form (game, movie, etc) after being sold, make it a monster hit!

[Lexluther]

I honestly believe the best thing for Eidos to do is sell the franchise (assuming they can even find a buyer), since it's obvious at this point they've written it off as unprofitable and want nothing more to do with it.

The best way to show Eidos and CD what a mistake they've made by abandoning it is if it ever shows up again in any form (game, movie, etc) after being sold, make it a monster hit!

I know micorsoft would buy it..They need to sell it to some one

[Turaziel]

The problem with Eidos...


One of the most deeply connecting stories, with action, adventure, mystery, emotion (you heart wrenched at the end of Defiance!)... everything a good game needs has come form them.

Then they moan it didn't sell well. You know why? Advertising. You can't expect to sell a game about Vampires to a world of EA fans who only play sports games unless you advertise it, and advertise well.

I think a next-gen outing for LoK would be amazing. A huge open world installment, with environments like those in Assassin's Creed... Kain should be able to climb anywhere, leap onto rooftops, use the disguise spells from BO1.
And graphically it would be beautiful. Kain looked amazing in Defiance and that was with last-gen technology.

I think if Eidos stuck their neck out and made another game (a decent one), advertised it well, and re-released a bundle of the older games they would reap.
Alot of people I talk to said they didn't get into LoK because the very first game (what most consider the foundation) is harder to find than the Holy Grail (seriously. I found the Grail, sold it on ebay then found a used copy of BO1 which had just been sold. So i trekked into town, bumping into the guy I sold the Grail to, then saw it in a window.)

And why invest in new projects? Thats riskier than making another game, because the LoK fans will boycott it out of anger, and there's the possibility it could go the way of Advent Rising (an admittedly AMAZING game, but poor sales meant the trilogy was cancelled)

And if you don't want to risk it, sell it to a more daring company. Preferably the one Amy went to, but if not Ubisoft are good. In fact any really... as long as its not EA.

[Gate-7]

The problem with Eidos...


One of the most deeply connecting stories, with action, adventure, mystery, emotion (you heart wrenched at the end of Defiance!)... everything a good game needs has come form them.

Then they moan it didn't sell well. You know why? Advertising. You can't expect to sell a game about Vampires to a world of EA fans who only play sports games unless you advertise it, and advertise well.

I think a next-gen outing for LoK would be amazing. A huge open world installment, with environments like those in Assassin's Creed... Kain should be able to climb anywhere, leap onto rooftops, use the disguise spells from BO1.
And graphically it would be beautiful. Kain looked amazing in Defiance and that was with last-gen technology.

I think if Eidos stuck their neck out and made another game (a decent one), advertised it well, and re-released a bundle of the older games they would reap.
Alot of people I talk to said they didn't get into LoK because the very first game (what most consider the foundation) is harder to find than the Holy Grail (seriously. I found the Grail, sold it on ebay then found a used copy of BO1 which had just been sold. So i trekked into town, bumping into the guy I sold the Grail to, then saw it in a window.)

And why invest in new projects? Thats riskier than making another game, because the LoK fans will boycott it out of anger, and there's the possibility it could go the way of Advent Rising (an admittedly AMAZING game, but poor sales meant the trilogy was cancelled)

And if you don't want to risk it, sell it to a more daring company. Preferably the one Amy went to, but if not Ubisoft are good. In fact any really... as long as its not EA.

Totally agree:thumbsup:

[vampire][vorador]

I think the best way for them to get new people to play the series, is doing what was suposed to be done in the first place... doing one game with all the content... (remaking) Soul Reaver, Soul Reaver 2, Defiance and adding a new piece of storyline to finish the series (I am not sure if defiance and this new bit of story were supposed to be in there too)... and put it all in one BIG game... probably its to difficult to get that amount of content in one game, but for me it would be great.

[Lexluther]

[vorador;604908']I think the best way for them to get new people to play the series, is doing what was suposed to be done in the first place... doing one game with all the content... (remaking) Soul Reaver, Soul Reaver 2, Defiance and adding a new piece of storyline to finish the series (I am not sure if defiance and this new bit of story were supposed to be in there too)... and put it all in one BIG game... probably its to difficult to get that amount of content in one game, but for me it would be great.

From

beginning to end would be a great ideal :thumbsup: they could remaster all the games so they look good on current gen and for ps3 they could put all the games as one on a blueray disk and for 360 and pc put them on DVD'S as a trilogy boxset.

[atb100]

But it won't happen.

[Lexluther]

But it won't happen.

I agree i say it won't but.........

This whole thing upsets me i know the lok series don't rake in the bucks like tomb raider but thats no reason to stop with the lok series. They are alot of fans and people who enjoy and look forward too a new lok game i just think it should be about more then money that they should take care of the fans as well. This all really upsets i feel like eidos are just going to keep milking Tomb raider to people get sick of it. The last tomb raider on 360 was a great game and defiance was a great game it's their own fault lok don't sell they don't advertise it like they do tomb raider.

[TheWatcher]

And if you don't want to risk it, sell it to a more daring company. Preferably the one Amy went to, but if not Ubisoft are good. Can you imagine if Naughty Dog bought the LoK franchise? I can see it now, poor Amy Hennig running out of her office, screaming bloody murder! :lol: :lmao:

[dumah's wraith]

LOK racing game, anyone?

Eidos won't make a game if it doesn't make money. They won't make one for a minority of fans when they have better franchises, better story or not. Why take care of fans that'll just lose your money? Face it, it's not going to happen. Sad but true

[fneh]

LOK racing game, anyone?

Eidos won't make a game if it doesn't make money. They won't make one for a minority of fans when they have better franchises, better story or not. Why take care of fans that'll just lose your money? Face it, it's not going to happen. Sad but true



Could not agree more with this.

You cannot say eidos didn't try with the series. The series got to 5 games and even the writer of the series left it. Face it, Eidos isn't the reason there's no LOK6. A specialist genre like this can only suceed if the game itself is hugely sucessful. The first SR game was raved about. The 2nd SR game was recieved well but felt like half a game (was it even HALF a game in the end?) and CD tried to breathe new life into LOK5 by upping the graphics (they still impress me today tbh) and pouring (too much) time and money into a fancy (but in reality, inferior in almost every way) camera and totally overhauled the combat system. eidos TRIED to save LOK. They even had the game designers read our own "most wanted" thread on the title and some things were actually shown in the final game. (tho i honestly believe they should've listened to our problems with the game before it was released. lots of us questioned the new camera when we loved the original one but CD arrogantly assumed they knew better than the ppl buying their product.)

not many games get to see 4 sequels made. Be grateful for what you have.

[Lexluther]

I say any thing is possible ......If they could breath new life in the tomb raider franchise witch was dam near death after the last 3 games and Angel of darkness being the fineshing blow. Then they can bring lok back maybe that genuis who made the tomb raider for 360 will work with the lok game.

WE can hope

[atb100]

It would be very great to see a new game, but..... I may sound strange, but I'm fine with games we have.

Actually I have beaten SR1 about 50 times and I never get tired. :D

[Gate-7]

I agree that 5 games is good because nosgoth is not only the period with kain and raziel.It has many thinks and lets you manipulate the story as you want.Like dream how the vampire- sarafan war was and many other things.
THANKS god its an open fantasy world that many things happen or could happened.

But they need to finish the current storyline to see what will happen with Kain and the damn pillars:mad2:

[atb100]

I just hope, that they don't explain EVERYTHING. That would ruin the fun about LoK's. Just like with Silent Hill games. That's why SH community is strong. They need to let people speculate 'n stuff.

[dumah's wraith]

I just hope, that they don't explain EVERYTHING. That would ruin the fun about LoK's. Just like with Silent Hill games. That's why SH community is strong. They need to let people speculate 'n stuff.

Absolutely. It's more realistic with some loose ends

[theruiner66]

I would love to see the closing chapter to the LOK series as much as the next person. But when it comes down to it, you have to look at society as a whole and you'll get your answer why Tomb Raider is getting the most attention. SEX SELLS!!!

Think about it, which series is gonna reach out to the majority of gamers more? Vampires running around trying to prevent the downfall of a society? Or a scantly clad, big breasted adventurer running around with big guns, blowing stuff up? It's simple math.

The video game demographic is mostly males in the 13-32 age range. And what do most males in that age range have on their mind at least 75% of the time? It's not sucking the souls of recently deceased townsfolk, I'll tell you that much.

I will admit that better advertising would have greatly helped the LOK series. I rarely saw any promos for any of the current gen LOK games when they were first released, let alone, what I did see wouldn't appeal to many except for people who were already interested in the series. There is no way you can increase your consumer volume by only catering to your current consumers. The best idea I can think of to get a larger demographic interested in another game is far fetched, but not unheard of.

Vampires in general (books, games, art, etc.) are mainly the interest of the "goth" society. Where as society as a whole, is statistically only interested in vampires in cinematic and theatrical form. But no matter what your age or lifestyle, everyone is interested in movies in some way or another. Solution? If there were to be another game; make the promo in the form of a movie trailer! Create new sequences surrounding the story of the past games and make most of the trailer a recap of what's happened thus far, as to get attention of those who know nothing of what's happened in the world of Nosgoth. Concentrate less on gameplay footage and more on what the game is actually about. Not only will it focus their attention on what is going to happen next, but it will strike up their curiousity about the previous installments. You have to get the people to want to know what's gonna happen next. But that can't be done without showing them how things have gotten to where they are. Of course, there would have to be actual gameplay footage in it, but keep it to a minimum. Keep people guessing what the game is actually going to be like until you have them slamming their money down on the counter begging for their copy! Mystery is what keeps the human mind interested!

I apologize for the length of this rant, but my point is clear. Without innovative thinking that will subjugate consumers and deter them from common thinking, a manufacturer's cost will most surely outweight their profit.

*I also have no idea why my vocabulary became more complicated over the course of this rant*

[fneh]

LOK needs a total overhaul if there's ever going to be a new game. a TOTALLY new lead character - ideally a girl. The way the first SR game revamped the series. Put kain in the background in a similar way to SR1. Don't try to explain what he's doing. The followers of the series should be left to solve it from previous games. Newcomers would just get a sense of mystery like we all had from Kain in SR1. Trust me, that would work.

The new lead character would be the most difficult part. I'd say they should be a hylden/vamp hybred. Maybe while janos was in the demon world he knocked up a hylden girl and this could be her. I hate to say it, but give her the ability to shift to either realm. Maybe have similar AI to SR1. At the start she'd be an outcast on both sides. Maybe make it so she can make 1 side (or both..) earn her trust over time?

With an entirely new lead character, all existing plot holes that would be filled in would be filled in for the newcomers w/o the need to play existing games (because it would need to be told from a newcomer perspective seeing as it's a new lead character). One of the biggest problems with why LOK failed is because you NEEDED to have the previous games to understand AT ALL what was going on. No matter how hard CD tried to remedy this it couldn't work because they were essentially act2 and act3 of soul reaver.
If there was another LOK title and Kain was the lead character i can guarantee there would never be another lok title unless it was the single greatest platform game ever made.

(yes i'm going to design this character and post her in the LOK6 concept thread)

[vampire][vorador]

LOK needs a total overhaul if there's ever going to be a new game. a TOTALLY new lead character - ideally a girl. The way the first SR game revamped the series. Put kain in the background in a similar way to SR1. Don't try to explain what he's doing. The followers of the series should be left to solve it from previous games. Newcomers would just get a sense of mystery like we all had from Kain in SR1. Trust me, that would work.

The new lead character would be the most difficult part. I'd say they should be a hylden/vamp hybred. Maybe while janos was in the demon world he knocked up a hylden girl and this could be her. I hate to say it, but give her the ability to shift to either realm. Maybe have similar AI to SR1. At the start she'd be an outcast on both sides. Maybe make it so she can make 1 side (or both..) earn her trust over time?

With an entirely new lead character, all existing plot holes that would be filled in would be filled in for the newcomers w/o the need to play existing games (because it would need to be told from a newcomer perspective seeing as it's a new lead character). One of the biggest problems with why LOK failed is because you NEEDED to have the previous games to understand AT ALL what was going on. No matter how hard CD tried to remedy this it couldn't work because they were essentially act2 and act3 of soul reaver.
If there was another LOK title and Kain was the lead character i can guarantee there would never be another lok title unless it was the single greatest platform game ever made.

(yes i'm going to design this character and post her in the LOK6 concept thread)

That wouldn't be a LOK game..to do that they might as well get Lara Croft bitten by a vampire and find a secret gate to Nosgoth.... :mad2:

[fneh]

[vorador;605404']That wouldn't be a LOK game..to do that they might as well get Lara Croft bitten by a vampire and find a secret gate to Nosgoth.... :mad2:


well i'm SO SORRY for trying to say something constructive instead of beating a dead horse again and again....

[vampire][vorador]

well i'm SO SORRY for trying to say something constructive instead of beating a dead horse again and again....
Imagine you throw a coin enough times (...) one day it lands on it's edge... and the dead horse comes back from the spectral realm :scratch:

I just think that if they did that, despite maybe, and I really mean MAYBE, bringing new people to the series, it would make people that are already there loose interest... Where would that girl you talk about come from? Do you think this: "I'd say they should be a hylden/vamp hybred. Maybe while janos was in the demon world he knocked up a hylden girl and this could be her. I hate to say it, but give her the ability to shift to either realm." is LOK? It would ruin the story for those who know it and would be nothing truly new to appeal to people that know nothing of LOK.

And overall, spin-offs are made to turn previous story endings into something new or when in previous stories there is some major findings, capable of changing the storyline. Clearly none of these apply to Legacy of Kain.

And that's my opinion. I'm sorry if I bothered you when I expressed it.

[fneh]

then come up with a better idea. It was just ONE idea....... Instead of knocking every new idea that's suggested why don't you try to build on it and improve upon it. Or even suggest your own instead of dismissing it.


What do YOU think would revive a series that's all but over? Obviously you're more concerned with keeping (all of 5) existing LOK fans happy than appealing to the masses. If there is ever to be another LOK title it needs to be a total rebirth of the series. Raziel's story is over. The pillars need restoring and a lot of loose ends need cleaning up.

I'd rather the next title be set AFTER Kain has restored the pillars. Maybe you're a destined circle member in Kain's new world? And as you progress through the game you can learn of how Kain restored nosgoth? I don't know, but at least i'm trying here instead of just blaming Eidos for everything that's wrong with the world..

[vampire][vorador]

then come up with a better idea. It was just ONE idea....... Instead of knocking every new idea that's suggested why don't you try to build on it and improve upon it. Or even suggest your own instead of dismissing it.


What do YOU think would revive a series that's all but over? Obviously you're more concerned with keeping (all of 5) existing LOK fans happy than appealing to the masses. If there is ever to be another LOK title it needs to be a total rebirth of the series. Raziel's story is over. The pillars need restoring and a lot of loose ends need cleaning up.

I'd rather the next title be set AFTER Kain has restored the pillars. Maybe you're a destined circle member in Kain's new world? And as you progress through the game you can learn of how Kain restored nosgoth? I don't know, but at least i'm trying here instead of just blaming Eidos for everything that's wrong with the world..

I exposed my idea already in here.

People that don't know LOK wouldn't play a new game because every game that has been released until now is connected to the previous one. People that played only Defiance would be lost without knowing what happened before.

Now, the story of LOK is one of the greatest out there. But, as we all know, masses don't play games for their story only.

If CD was able to put SR, SR2, Defiance and a new piece of story to end the series in one game, if they advertised that game, if they were not rushed to publish, if they had time to make Reaver Forges, Block Puzzles and Combats less repetitive, if they had time to put all of Nosgoth as great as it is (not scale down whole areas like they did in Defiance with the stronghold), if they had time to build different puzzles to every area (similiar to Legend), not copy one from area to area, if they had time to implement some AI to enemies (it was so exciting to see how much time did 5 or 6 Sarafans aided by priests took to kill me when I was not striking and standing still, and it was not because of the amount of life they took with each strike being too little, more because they would strike once in ten seconds or something similar. It was great too, to tap slash repeatedly to attack enemies seeing them up and down like dolls).

And much, much more...

Really, I borrowed Defiance to one of my friends and he liked the story, the way the cut-scenes were done and he had never played any LOK game...But still, he didn't played for long... you know why? Read most of what I've written above, the answer is there.

In other words, if they had the time or the money to build an engine, a game that would rival with LOK's story greatness or that would be as immersive as the story, if they advertised the game, if they worried less about the game occupying 2 or 3 DVD's, they would have LOK giving them money, they would have LOK selling like candies...

But there's to much if's, if's that make doing that too risky, if's that make that as unlikely as they making a LOK 6, if's that make that as unlikely as totally rebirthing the series, if's that made all of the LOK's community disappear in these last years, if's that moved LOK forum to "Eidos Classics".

But, if's that would probably apply also to the new products they expect to release.

If's that take me back to the first post of this thread where there's no evidence that there will be any Lok related stuff being released in the next years.

With that said...

Happy 2007 to everyone.

[fneh]

no offence but i'm struggling to understand your point of that post. Are you honestly saying you want them to remake the last 5 games in 1 new multi disc game??? How would that be moving the series forward exactly?

Maybe i'm just tired, but that wall of text didn't make any sense at all. Can you please explain what you actually want LOK6 to be?

[vampire][vorador]

I said SR, SR2, Defiance and a new piece of story to end the series. In one game, yes.

(And sorry for the previous text wall. I think its a little better now.)

[dumah's wraith]

LOK needs a total overhaul if there's ever going to be a new game. a TOTALLY new lead character - ideally a girl. The way the first SR game revamped the series. Put kain in the background in a similar way to SR1. Don't try to explain what he's doing. The followers of the series should be left to solve it from previous games. Newcomers would just get a sense of mystery like we all had from Kain in SR1. Trust me, that would work.

The new lead character would be the most difficult part. I'd say they should be a hylden/vamp hybred. Maybe while janos was in the demon world he knocked up a hylden girl and this could be her. I hate to say it, but give her the ability to shift to either realm. Maybe have similar AI to SR1. At the start she'd be an outcast on both sides. Maybe make it so she can make 1 side (or both..) earn her trust over time?

With an entirely new lead character, all existing plot holes that would be filled in would be filled in for the newcomers w/o the need to play existing games (because it would need to be told from a newcomer perspective seeing as it's a new lead character). One of the biggest problems with why LOK failed is because you NEEDED to have the previous games to understand AT ALL what was going on. No matter how hard CD tried to remedy this it couldn't work because they were essentially act2 and act3 of soul reaver.
If there was another LOK title and Kain was the lead character i can guarantee there would never be another lok title unless it was the single greatest platform game ever made.

(yes i'm going to design this character and post her in the LOK6 concept thread)

Janos is sterile. That's the entire point of the series[Hylden curse]. Sorry for picking holes.

A new character would be good, yes. Defiance was easy because both Kain and Raz were already powerful. Nothing can challenge them anymore. Where in sr1 and bo1 they were weak enough to be interesting. BO2 was good up until Faustus, after which the combat system got very boring. So bring back a character weak enough for good gameplay. Either a new one [but you'd have to think up a really good backstory, you can't just say Kain's long lost brother became a vamp too or something. Or maybe play as an old faithful- Maybe Moebius escaped Squiddy or Janos back from the demon realm. And put in some really cool monsters, like the SR1 bosses.

That's really vague, I know, but it won't happen anyway, so who cares?

[fneh]

as far as continuity matters i have 3 words for you: BLOOD OMEN 2


and yea, i forgot Janos was sterile, but there hadn't been any thought behind that idea. I was just throwing something out there to point out how we needed a new character. Not only because of the reasons you've just pointed out Dumah (I remember we were all concerned that Kain would be underpowered for defiance to make the game playable and the way Raziel progressed through the first SR game was perfect (tho they overkilled the constrict ability in the last part of the game) but because it would show a new direction for the series. It doesn't need to be a female character as long as they have that front page charisma that Raziel had once upon a time.

[vampire][vorador]

Janos is sterile. That's the entire point of the series[Hylden curse]. Sorry for picking holes.

A new character would be good, yes. Defiance was easy because both Kain and Raz were already powerful. Nothing can challenge them anymore. Where in sr1 and bo1 they were weak enough to be interesting. BO2 was good up until Faustus, after which the combat system got very boring. So bring back a character weak enough for good gameplay. Either a new one [but you'd have to think up a really good backstory, you can't just say Kain's long lost brother became a vamp too or something. Or maybe play as an old faithful- Maybe Moebius escaped Squiddy or Janos back from the demon realm. And put in some really cool monsters, like the SR1 bosses.

That's really vague, I know, but it won't happen anyway, so who cares?

Playing Janos would be great. After all, we don't know what happened to him. And you're right about SR1 bosses. Fighting EG in Defiance and the Pillars Guardians Wraiths was a bit too easy. I know some people don't like the trap driven Bosses, but they could make something that everyone would like. Little traps, with aid of normal attacks. Like a mix of SR1/Defiance bosses.

As for it not happening, you're right, at least for the next few years it seems...

[Smoke_Z]

[vorador;605404']That wouldn't be a LOK game..to do that they might as well get Lara Croft bitten by a vampire and find a secret gate to Nosgoth.... :mad2:

well i'm SO SORRY for trying to say something constructive instead of beating a dead horse again and again....

Actually, it's not gag-inducing, just as long as that Lara clone doesn't have the things I hate about Lara Croft. :mad2: (Haven't played more than the demo of Legend, they might have fixed it already, but she's had her chances with me.)

I could possibly see Janos having a hand in her creation, but working together in a fragile truce with a hylden to make a biological weapon that will finish the job that the prophesied heros didn't accomplish. (I don't imagine Janos would stoop to any of that outsider stuff.)

[Turaziel]

IF there is another game I would be furious if Eidos just filled in the holes for new gamers and moved straight on.

I stand by my earlier statement and say that what would generate a ton of interest for LoK would be to release all the current games as a package. Not remake them, or remaster them or anything. Five games, five discs.

Look at Gitaroo Man. A very obscure title for the PS2 that only generated a cult following.
With the release of the PSP, KOEI re-released it as a PSP game and included an extra level and it became extremely popular.

The main problem (I'll say it again) is advertising. Eidos didn't really ever make an attempt (that I can remember) at telelvision or cinema adverts. They just stuck the game out and thought "This'll sell like hotckaes!"
And another thing... merchandising! Where's all the LoK fiddly crap that annoys people but sells? Are there any film rights? Most of us would hate to see a film of LoK but anything that generates hype, generates interest, which increases the prospective buyers market, which increases the chances of a sequel.

I do respect them and thank them for making all of the sequels, but you can't just make them and then stop.

C'MON! You gave Lara a second chance (and she was deader than any of the Vamps in LoK) and she did alright. Bring Kain onto the next-gen and show all those other companies how its done. And as the next game climbs the charts all of the fans will yell out loud "VAE VICTUS" and retreat into Nosgoth for a few days.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

I think that the idea of a new, weaker character is interesting also since Kain really is just too powerful. Male or female, I wouldn't care (the Preistess? That would make some sense also), but have us have to get powerful again with new stuff and other things similar to what has been in the others. And I really have to agree about the boss fights. I missed the SR type boss fights in SR2 and Defiance. I'd like to point out the game Shadow of the Colossus for just what can be done with fights against enemies in games. Not that I'm saying that the next one should have Kain or someone climbing gigantic beings and stabbing the vitals (oh man, the great memories of doing that for the first time though), but something as amazing as what that game accomplished is what I'm trying to get at. I really hope there's more games in that series as well since they've done great so far I think.
Something as cool as realm shifting in SR (it seemed to be missing something in SR2 and Defiance) would be great also, but I'm not sure what that could be.

[Edge of the Coin]

Well, let's see what has happened since my last visit, shall we?

No, I didn't like Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings, nor King Kong, Cabin Fever, or... Mysterious Creatures, was it called? (And I didn't like the new Star Wars, or Lucas's threat to rework Raiders of the Lost Arc, either).

I think that you could go a long way without finding a story like LoK. The dialogue is well-written, the flow of time well-concieved (a phenomenon in itself, really) and the characters many-layered. The reason that this story appeals to me, personally, is because it defies your preconceptions at every turn. This is unlike most literature I have read, which is in the large part quite predictable and far less stimulating than I prefer. The literature I speak of include many classics, contemporary works, fiction, nonfiction, historical fiction, science fiction, high fantasy, graphic novels etc., etc., etc. I read far too much. Therefore, it is quite a statement for me to say that I prefer the LoK storyline to the bulk of what I have read or seen in television or film. I would honestly have prefered it were a book. But as it isn't, this is the medium on which I expect the story to be completed. And that is all I'm asking for, a conclusion to one of my favorite stories.

Yes, five installments of a game that has little more than a cult following is more than is to be expected. But the fact is that a company has an obligation to their customers just as much as they have an obligation to make money. When a company finds itself with a loyal following of customers (who hang out on a forum four years after the release of the last game) they have an obligation to satisfy those customers. If a company ignores its customers, they can expect bad publicity and a pretty sizable group of people who are unlikely to offer them further support. One last game to finish the story arc would satisfy me, as that is all it may need. They should not drag out the story if they do not intend to finish it. I got the impression that LoK was on its last legs when they made Defiance. Why they did not go ahead and conclude the storyline then is beyond me.

I never thought that LoK was not appealing to newcomers. The first LoK game I played was Defiance, and after playing it, I felt quite satisfied with the story, as much as can be expected when it leaves you on a cliffhanger, then I went out and tracked down the other games. That filled in some of the plotholes I had encountered in Defiance, and opened a few new ones. I shall feel extremely ill-used and putupon if I am not furnished with a conclusion. At least in the form of the writers doing us a courtesy and telling us.

Advertising and merchandising is the endall problem with most forms of media. The very reason that no low-budget endeavor ever becomes a blockbuster. If the resources are available, the company handling the franchise must use them to promote their material. Otherwise, they can HARDLY expect anyone to discover their product. I have not been aware of every having seen a promotion for LoK, except on other LoK games (what kind of advertising campaign is that?) I, myself, found out about LoK through an aquaintance who played it. If word-of-mouth is the only way LoK is promoted, Eidos cannot blame LoK for its own sales issues.

I do not think that a new character of any kind is necessary. I would be very disapointed if they introduced one. True, gameplay is less challenging when you are playing a character whose power is supposed to be unsurpassed by any other creature on their world. The obvious solution is to introduce new enemies: The Hylden. The Hylden have always lurked in the shadows of the games, not quite at the forefront of the story, but motivating and manipulating everything from behind the scenes. In a concluding game, it would make sense to introduce the Hylden, and the Elder God as insinuated by Defiance as the main enemies. These would obviously challenge Kain much more than the human and vampiric enemies that he has faced before. Thus creating more challenging gameplay. To cite another series as an example of this: Devil May Cry. The game that comes first chronologically, DMC 3 (a prequel) is the most difficult of the series, DMC (1) is much easier, Dante has aquired more power, and DMC2 is a bit more challenging than the first game was, because more formiddable forces have been invoked to match Dante's power. It would work as well or better with LoK.
If they took the games away from Kain, there would be no conclusion to the story arc as it is. As I see it, what needs to be done is that Kain must restore the pillars, destroy the Elder God, and in the meantime combat the Hylden who would be fighting to keep Kain from restoring the lock that binds them in the demon realm, with younger (BO2) Kain helping a bit along the way by killing the Sarafan Lord and postponing the transgression by the Hylden onto Nosgoth. I can't see Kain delegating any of this to a big-busted naked half-Hylden, although I would not object to seeing the Hylden Seer from BO2 come back as a non-playable character in the story.

[Turaziel]

Can I just say.... great post. You have summed up everything.

A powerful character needs more powerful enemies, simple as. The introduction of a new character this late would do nothing except get in the way.

We had a new character in the beginning, creating another storyline, and Defiance brought bot stories together (wonderfully). Another character now would shift all the attention from Kain and his destiny to focus on the new character being suutably introduced.

As for marketing, I'm sure Eidos could use a form of viral marketing. That tends to be cheaper than other methods because in most cases you just need to produce a few videos, and put them on YouTube (for free).

[black_reign]

i agree with Turaziel and Edge....a new character would stretch the story further than needed...as for stronger enemies, big plus...:thumbsup: Kain needs to be introduced to enemies that he has never seen..like the enemies he faced in Defiance after Raziel ripped the Heart out of him..enemies Raziel faced that Kain hadn't..plus, give Kain the ability to shift into the Spectral Relm...since he has the spectral and material Reavers as one...this would make the story longer since it's in the BO2 era, maybe the Hylden are moving through the Spectral Relm to take over bodies in the Material Relm :scratch: and as for Trap-based boss battles...well, boss battles for that matter..there need to be more of both..i believe Kain needs to use his mind to defeat his powerful foes instead of his brawn as he has done most of this series..it seemed Raziel's battles in SR1 involved more of a thought based approach to defeating the bosses than Kain did in BO1(it got a little better in BO2) this needs to be reintroduced..(i can't forget how many times in SR1 it took me to realize i needed to go into the Spectral Relm to get that one boss to the furnace room...:mad2: )and also make them multi-trapped...not just one trap and the battle is over...that would suck...****
as for sales of LOK...advertising and timing are everything...one game come to mind when timing is concerned...Tobal #1 which was a great fighter but was released to compete with Tekken...come on!!! no contest...and then Tobal 2 never seen stateside because of the sales of the first and the sequel was even better... also, as consumers, we need to give them time to make a quality game. i know i get mad sometimes when i hear that a game i want bad has got delayed due to something and then they rush to get it out...look what happened to SR1(too much stuff left out.) i think we are victims of our own demands... but if i heard that another LOK was coming out, i would be more than happy to say" Take your time Guys" as long as another one was coming, i'm happy with that...and don't release it with another game that has a stronger fanbase alongside it...something to think about EIDOS.:whistle:

[GuyverRaziel]

Heres something that could work for the old fans and for the new fans.

What if we make Janos the new main character and follow his chain in the story form his birth. This would uncover some of the history of the war the forgeing of the reaver and stuff up until the point he dies. Then pic it back up to when Raziel revives Janos for a short time and then leave it off again until his role in BO2. Allowing us to find out what happened to him and what happened after Kain did whatever it is he is supposed to do without showing us exactly what he did.

Let Janos partake in the war, have him help to find the means and materials to forge the reaver and have him find Vorador to convert into a vampire. Thus he would start off "weak" and grow stronger. Make the game combat oriented but puzzle based also. I loved how in SR1 they did the lets see how many puzzles we can make with boxes idea. Have different bosses like figure it out bosses to just combat bosses. (Hylden Officers in the war and or beasts guarding materials for the Reaver.) Have collectables throughout the game to allow the "hardcore" players to have a task and upon completion unlock another story line such as an end to Kains story line we get to play as him and finish his story line.

Then IF they need another feature to make this better Add multiplayer where you get to partake in the war was a soldier with 2 teams (You can play as both.) and just have it be a giant melee war or a Risk type game where everyone is fighting over chunks of nosgoth and when one team wins you get some kind of stupid reward like money to buy stuff in the game or for online armor or something. and reset it.

Also if they made this an "Anniversary" Edition revamp the old games graphics and release them as a disk set I miss massive games that take more then a disk >.> Lets say 3-4 BO1-2 on one disk SR1, 2, and defiance on another and this one on it's own. In case the new guys care to play the old games without have to play IRL find the needle in the haystack.

How does that sound?

[Turaziel]

It sounds too much like a MMORPG, or multiplayer game.

LoK isn't about fighting huge wars, its about one man's(?) struggle to go against odds that he could never defeat (everything in his life is preordained), and heal a world that was corrupted andhad fallen into decay.

And now he has the means too.

Kain must be returned to. Its as simple as that. We've seen him struggle through life, death, unlife, another death and then life again. We've seen him forced to sacrifice his firstborn and favourite son in order to save the Nosgoth.

And now he has the means too.

We have to follow Kain as he seeks out the new Guardians of the Circle and restores the Pillars of Nosgoth. We have to go with him when he finally banishes the Hylden once again (unless of course he allies with them. Remember, they also are against the EG).
And, ultimately, we must see him topple the Elder Gods parasitic, cancerous hold on Nosgoth and allow the souls of the dead to rest in peace rather than being eaten, pooped out and forced to live again.

I agree that once the Legacy of Kain has been completed that we should move on to the Chronicle of the Ancients (if that ever comes into being you all see that I came up with the name and am its sole owner!).
A game in which we fight FOR the Elder God would be interesting, and a war game in which we play as flying warrior mages would be amazing... but one thing at a time.

I don't like the way you described the game, GuyverRaziel, as it just sounds like it will be Star Wars: Battlefront with Vampires. But a game set during the War, in which you play as a special unit or something - kinda like Star Wars: Republic Commando, would be good. (star wars is the only game I can think of set during a war with examples of both what I mean and what I don't)
(Republic Commando was set during the Clone Wars, but at no point do you ever fight on the battlefield. Your missions involve gathering intelligence, assassination, infiltration.)

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Yeah, I agree that it would be best playing as Kain and taking on bizzare enemies now. And they should hire Wayne Barlowe to do the concept art and enemy designs, that would rule!

[GuyverRaziel]

I agree with the Kain thing my earlier post was just a random idea. I would also prefer no mutliplayer.

The only thing I miss is being able to drain the blood from multiple enemies at once.

[The DarkOne]

I for one don't support having a new character in the series (at least not yet), I love playing as Kain the unstoppable super vampire, making enemies harder could make things a little more fun, I mean hey devil may cry's Dante is very powerful but its still a tough game.........I would also prefer that they end the Lok series with two different endings as in BO1, one where Kain dies, the other he lives.

[garbagefanuk]

From what i understand Tomb Raider doesn't make a great deal anymore. The franchise has been going downhill for a long long time and its long past it's sell by date. Sadly companies will leach something until there is nothing left and the final results are quite an..... Abomination?

[vampire][vorador]

From what i understand Tomb Raider doesn't make a great deal anymore. The franchise has been going downhill for a long long time and its long past it's sell by date. Sadly companies will leach something until there is nothing left and the final results are quite an..... Abomination?

That was true until Tomb Raider Legend came out. Legend kind of re ignited the series. It got a 7.8 at gamespot and a 8.2 at IGN. And sells were very good too. The only thing I've heard from people complaining about it was it's longevity. But of course, if they keep releasing Tomb Raiders year after year, not even Crystal Dynamics will be able to keep the game alive for long.

[the dark one]

Well I am kinda glad they have not said they are going to do another game because it would most likely be for the ps3 which I don't know about the lot of you but even for One of the Greatest games ever I really can't afford the
ps3 so if it takes a year or two before we ever see another Lok game that's fine by me. Since if the game was to come out tomorrow I would have to put up with witing to play the game until the ps3 comes down in price a little.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Yeah, I know what you mean about the PS3. I'm really looking forward to Metal Gear Solid 4, but the price for that system is insane.

[dumah's wraith]

Heres something that could work for the old fans and for the new fans.

What if we make Janos the new main character and follow his chain in the story form his birth. This would uncover some of the history of the war the forgeing of the reaver and stuff up until the point he dies. Then pic it back up to when Raziel revives Janos for a short time and then leave it off again until his role in BO2. Allowing us to find out what happened to him and what happened after Kain did whatever it is he is supposed to do without showing us exactly what he did.

Let Janos partake in the war, have him help to find the means and materials to forge the reaver and have him find Vorador to convert into a vampire. Thus he would start off "weak" and grow stronger. Make the game combat oriented but puzzle based also. I loved how in SR1 they did the lets see how many puzzles we can make with boxes idea. Have different bosses like figure it out bosses to just combat bosses. (Hylden Officers in the war and or beasts guarding materials for the Reaver.) Have collectables throughout the game to allow the "hardcore" players to have a task and upon completion unlock another story line such as an end to Kains story line we get to play as him and finish his story line.

Then IF they need another feature to make this better Add multiplayer where you get to partake in the war was a soldier with 2 teams (You can play as both.) and just have it be a giant melee war or a Risk type game where everyone is fighting over chunks of nosgoth and when one team wins you get some kind of stupid reward like money to buy stuff in the game or for online armor or something. and reset it.

Also if they made this an "Anniversary" Edition revamp the old games graphics and release them as a disk set I miss massive games that take more then a disk >.> Lets say 3-4 BO1-2 on one disk SR1, 2, and defiance on another and this one on it's own. In case the new guys care to play the old games without have to play IRL find the needle in the haystack.

How does that sound?

Well...anyone who has played the other games would know exactly what happens, so it'd be pretty boring.

[Turaziel]

But anyone who hasn't will feel the need to get some backstory.

I remember when I first played Soul Reaver. I had never heard of this so-called Legacy of Kain (and actually thought it wasn't much of a legacy with only one game).
Then I discovered predescesor to it called Blood Omen which I could never find. I made it my mission to track down that game and play it through (one that I still haven't done).

The thing with LoK is that once you play one game you get a basic understanding of what's happening, but thats never enough. You are compelled to search down and play all the others so you can finally go "HAH! THATS WHATS HAPPENING!"

[The DarkOne]

You are compelled to search down and play all the others so you can finally go "HAH! THATS WHATS HAPPENING!"

Well that's not entirely true...the first LoK game I bought was SR1 whose intro summed up everything together nicely...when I bought SR2 I hadn't even finished SR1 (I had only beaten melchiah) and I never completed SR1 until I had finished SR2 (which also btw gave me a big background about what happened in BO1), I had never even played BO1 until I had finished BO2......I think the most important game in the LoK series, the one that you'd be completely lost in the story without, is SR2.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

I played Soul Reaver first also. Then Blood Omen, then Soul Reaver 2 came out and I played that and played the other two in order after that. Personally, I like Blood Omen best and Soul Reaver second.

[Raziel'sRevenge]

I played Soul Reaver first, then SR2, then BO2, then BO1. I've since beaten them all again at least three times so I feel I have a grasp on what's going on now :D But I do remember being very confused my first time through. Seeing Vorador in SR2 made no sense to me because I had no idea who he was.

[fneh]

"feeling the need for backstory" is a bad thing in the video game industry. BO1 is all but unplayable by today's standards. only the most hardcore fan would be prepared to even play it, let alone finish it.

The games industry advances too fast for the typical consumer to want to go back. Why would anyone honestly want to play BO1 so they can understand LOK6 when there are already games on the market that don't require you to spend £40 on ebay for one part of almost unplayable backstory when there is already 5 other games on the shelf in front of you that don't require this AND are superior games that have had much more money for their development (let's face it - recycling the SR1 OST on defiance was just downright cheap. they didn't even rerecord them).

If you want to dive into backstory then buy a book like Discworld that you've heard is good and then if you like it, you can read more. The first written will be every bit as good as the latest (and in a lot of cases even better). A videogame is completely different, and should not be grouped into this category. At the end of the day it's only a game. When you're 80 you won't have any desire to play legacy of kain. You will however be more than happy to read your favorite novel from childhood.

If there are ever to be more lok games they ALL need to be self contained, COMPLETE stories. the hardcore gamer can backtrack if he wants. If you pay £40 for a game you do NOT want to see part2 of a game that was released 6 years ago on another platform and is no longer in production and then sit reading "to be continued" 2 hours into the game when you've recieved only a handful of the "quest for revenge turned heroes journey" you was promised.

[Binky24]

You know, on one hand, I could not agree with you more. But on the other hand, it's ironic how, of all, this last game would possibly need no backstory, and could well be a stand-alone game. Because Raziel's character arc is completed, and there'd be no more need for playing around imbuing the Reaver; and also because Moebius is dead and all the playing around changing history has finally achieved its purpose.

Let's assume that the game would be set post-SR1, to avoid any possible meddling with history and timelines and all that. A new player would possibly have to learn only this:

(1)That Kain is a vampire, has the ultimate weapon in the universe and is supposed to use it somehow on those Pillars crumbling out there. That'd SAVE THE WORLD (tm), and so it's our ultimate goal.

(2)That there is that Janos guy who can possibly tell Kain how to STW(tm), except that, right now, he's in a pretty unpleasant place, so we'll first have to make a trip there to extract him.

(Additional plot points: Kain and Janos are the last two vampires in the world. Or two last sane vampires. Or Janos isn't, and has to be cured somehow.)

(3)That the place where Janos is is unpleasant because it's crawling with Kain's blood-feud enemies.

(4)That the enemies are enemies mostly because a giant squid calling himself a Wheel of Fate made them so.

(5)Ergo, it's the squid that needs to be eliminated, possibly with the help of said enemies. Or possibly, Kain being Kain, in addition to said enemies.

(6)Oh, and by the way, there is some mysterious-mystical way the vampires as a race can be resurrected. Or not.

Now, how simple is that?

[Turaziel]

I disagree, mainly because I feel the story will play out differently. Kain doesn't need Janos. He is the last remnant of an extinct people who were not willing to accept the curse (IMO Kain would see them as undeserving of it).

I think Kain will return to the post-SR1 era when Nosgoth would still be tattered.
The Pillars, though weakened, would still be sending out calls for Guardians (although the call may not be heard). Kain's presence as the completely un-cursed Scion Of Balance will cause a ripple throughout Nosgoth, and eight children will be born in the human cities - the next generation of Guardians.

Kain's quest then will be to find the guardians and return them to his citadel where the last Vampires can guard them. Upon finding them all, he will give them the Dark Gift and he will order the Pillars to be rebuilt.

Of course its never that simple... the EG is determined to prevent the Pillars being raised and creates a new entity by twisting and binding souls and placing them in corpses. These entities will be tasked with eliminating Kain, or failing that, the Guardians.
and of course the Hylden have found a way to slip in again (thanks to their new, scaly, winged leader - Janos). And they are on a mission to destroy the Pillars and the EG.

Cue loads of battles (some threeways - Kain vs Hylden vs the EG's guys) and add in a huge open world and presto.

I also think Kain should begin to change. He should slowly evolve into the picture of him in the end of Defiance. His scales turn blue, and he grows feathered wings (although he shouldn't be an Ancient - more like an evolved version of them).

[Binky24]

Yes, but that still does not disprove my main point. :) Because, again, the knowledge required to play the game would be that Kain is the Scion of Balance, and his (and the Reaver's) connection with the Hylden, Janos, the Pillars and the Elder God. In whatever configuration of allies and enemies.

In other words, all that complicated knowledge of parallel timelines, history changes, history loops, the interlocking of Raziel's, Moebius's, Kain's, Vorador's, Hash'ak'Gik's and the Reaver's (or Reavers') histories would not be required. At all. Apart from Vorador's resurrection, Defiance really did finish that all nicely.

Of course, that'd be only if Kain returned to the post-SR1 future. If he were to go back even further into the past, or remain in the time when he now is, the situation would complicate a lot. Which is why I rather like the post-SR1 scenario. :) Plus, it'd be nice to see the world change from the wasteland to something more normal as the game went on and, I don't know, the Pillars were restored, or the Guardians started doing their job...

[Erving JeansBgone]

As i`ve said before...the only way the Legacy of Kain series can make it out of the hole it`s in is if Ubisoft would buy the tittle and revamp or simply continue it...no offence to any1 but the games in the PoP series(sands of time, warrior within and the two thrones that is) have been some of the best 3rd person action/adventure/platforming games of recent years...fast paced action, SUPERB moves, great puzzles etc.

Ubi know their stuff so i feel that hey could be the only qualified ppl for the job.


Only problem i see in future LoK projects is that Tony Jay is no longer able to lend the Elder God his vocal talents...and to replace him would be blasphemy

[Turaziel]

I don't think Eidos are incapable of making a good game, quite the opposite really - every LoK game hasn't been bad and the majority are amazing - but if they are unwilling to make another one, then the license should be sold on.

But I don't want any revamping or the like... BO2 was supposed to be revamped and it is (gameplay-wise) the most inferior of the legacy.

[shlmysfb]

There wouldn't necessarily have to be a new character. Use an old one. Resurrect Umah (except a lot of people would hate that), or maybe use Vorador. We still don't know what happened to him, after all.

(SPOILERS AHEAD)

Then again, Kain himself is now purified of the corruption given to him by Nupraptor. I wonder if that brings any personality changes within him? He did express finally being able to feel hope. Kain's character might have changed enough to make it still interesting to play as him. Remember: Nupraptor's little assault gave the Circle "madness." What exactly was Kain's madness, and what happens to him now that it's cured?

[Turaziel]

I don't think he has become a just and wise ruler now. He can hope yes, but his entire plan was orchestrated to finally kick out the Hylden and return Nosgoth to Vampire Rule.

Remember in BO when he originally became a vampire? He was disgusted by the sight of Vorador, seeing the disgusting monster he would eventually become. But by the end of the game (ONE game!) he had completely changed his mind and decided that Vampire was the way to go.

And I'm not sure, but its my opinion, that the Ancients were in a position of power in Nosgoth, maybe not its rulers but very powerful. I imagine they would have been the big cheeses because the EG was happy with their service. I can see them ordering huge mass sacrifices of humans in his honour... prolly not but it sounds cool!

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

I don't think Kain's hope neccesarily is because of the purification, though it could be. It just seems to make sense that after everything he's been through, that now he would have hope to make everything better. Something interesting about Kain that puts him apart from all other Guardians is that unlike them, Kain has had his corruption for all his life, he doesn't know what it would be like to be without it until the end of Defiance. Actually, though we see the effects of the corruption in most Guardians, Mortanius and Moebius didn't seem to change too much for some reason. Maybe because they were more aware of it and so could hold it back from mental strength?

[Turaziel]

The hope wasn't caused by the purification. It was because Raziel's soul merged with his, and the merging allowed him to have Raziel's ability to hope.

[Vampmaster]

I don't think the ability to hope was some kind of mystical transference. He always had the ability to hope, but he just had no reason to hope an long as he was bound to the wheel. Now that he knows who his enemy is and has caused the EG a fair amount of pain, he now beleives he can actually win. This revelation was Raziels true gift. (LOK: Revelation sounds like quite a good title actually.)

[Riovanes]

I don't think anyone ever truly likes watching something that was once precious to them die off, but we all have to deal with it at some point or another. Personally, I lost interest in LoK as a series right around the time Defiance and its eight million plot holes found their way into my XBox console, but that's just me. I still play SR, SR 2 and BO 1&2 at least once a year, because the series still had something to it in those days.

Defiance, let's face it, could have been more appropriately titled, "Raziel May Cry: Why Does Everyone Copy Capcom's Dante Mechanics?"

Don't get me wrong, I think CD had a great thing on their hands with LoK; the problem is that the key word in that phrase is "had." At some point, someone at the top decided that the series no longer had a future as a set of plot-driven adventure titles, and decided to turn it into an over-the-top combat game that borrowed so heavily from DMC it was laughable. I enjoyed Devil May Cry for what it was; a game I could turn off the lights and my brain for, and just kick the living crap out of everything that made the mistake of moving within my field of vision. LoK was a series I turned to when I wanted intrigue, deception, and some of the best voice acting in modern gaming.

Defiance ruined that--and since LoK doesn't have the following or apparent resilience of the Tomb Raider series, one serious misstep was all it took to drive the series into its grave (no pun intended).

It's unfortunate, but it happens. Instead of being angry at Eidos/CD for being, as fneh so astutely pointed out, BUSINESSES, and calling them a bunch of heartless so-and-sos for not answering the demands of the fan following, we might as well accept that the corporate world operates on profit and pleasing the shareholders, and move on. There are a ton of excellent games still coming out of CD and Eidos, and other companies as well; with the advent of the Wii, 360, and, to a lesser extent, the PS 3 (I saw 18 on the shelf at a Chicago Best Buy that had NO 360's or Wii's over winter break; I enjoy watching Sony fail), we're living in one of the best times in recent memory to be a gamer. Why waste time lamenting something that's clearly dead and gone when there are so many other opportunities out there?

Seriously...

...

...

...

BAH!!!

[Erving JeansBgone]

we spend time crying over the death of LoK cause we LOVE the LoK universe and are sad to see it go to dust...and cause most of us are helpless gamers with no influence upon the fate of this tittle.

If i could i`d give it to Ubi as i`ve said before a couple of times and make them revamp the whole series...

And as for Defiance...yeah it did in a shameless way take stuff from DMC but let`s face it...Raziel should have been able to do alot more and be more agile and combatitive than in SR2 where honestly he was pathatic using the reaver...it was easier for me to take out a high lvl fire demon by only using the heavy attack than trying to attack it with the reaver...

Defiance failed cause it wasn`t worked on with heart...and it was horrible that they had those damn reaver forges all over 2 thirds of the game

[fneh]

Amen Rio!

[The Hylden]

Defiance and its eight million plot holes

I saw no plot holes. Everything either has been explained or is explainable. but sure... And yeah, it was amped up, but not *so* much as DMC, thank goodness. I enjoyed the end to Raziel's arc and think the voice acting, as always, was top-notch.

[Binky24]

Ditto, The Hylden. While I agree with most of your post, Riovanes, I frankly simply don't understand what you mean by the 'plot holes' in Defiance. :)

[fneh]

If you can't find plot holes yourself w/o them being pointed out then i think you might wanna pay a little more attention.

They even admitted them themselves in various interviews...


(I love how we can turn any discussion on here into a defiance bashing thread btw ;))

[Binky24]

If you can't find plot holes yourself w/o them being pointed out then i think you might wanna pay a little more attention.

No, really. Do you mean that Mortanius tells Kain to go to the Pillars when Moebius and Vorador are still alive? That's one plot hole. One. Not eight million of them. ;)

So - another example? And don't tell me to pay more attention. It's rather rude, and I could theoretically answer you by saying that you should stop finding plot holes where there are none, after which the thread could possibly slide into a flame war - and neither of us would want that, wouldn't we? :D

[The Hylden]

Yes, the only "plot hole" was pointed out as a mistake. The scene with Raziel meeting Moebius was put in at the wrong place, but they felt it helped tie up the story. Not much of a plot whole in regards to everything, really as everyone still winds up just as dead as they did in BO1... Any other plot holes thought up are simply made up, or thought of as such because people haven't either thought more on it, or looked online for any explanations. These games have always had parts with which to theorize as not *everything* is ever spelled out. It's part of their beauty. Why does Raziel's Wraith Blade self now behave differently? To me, it's because of the paradox change at the end of SR2 that leads to the end of Defiance when Raziel *chooses* willingly to enter the sword and thus, makes the Wraith Blade thousands of years later still remember it wasn't *forced* in. Intern, it behaves cooperatively now. That's just one example and people have other theories. It makes the most sense to me. I am thinking a lot of these "plot holes" are simply similar things such as this that people don't wish to see there *can be* a perfectly reasonable explanation for... Oh well...

[Riovanes]

Yes, the only "plot hole" was pointed out as a mistake. The scene with Raziel meeting Moebius was put in at the wrong place, but they felt it helped tie up the story. Not much of a plot whole in regards to everything, really as everyone still winds up just as dead as they did in BO1... Any other plot holes thought up are simply made up, or thought of as such because people haven't either thought more on it, or looked online for any explanations. These games have always had parts with which to theorize as not *everything* is ever spelled out. It's part of their beauty. Why does Raziel's Wraith Blade self now behave differently? To me, it's because of the paradox change at the end of SR2 that leads to the end of Defiance when Raziel *chooses* willingly to enter the sword and thus, makes the Wraith Blade thousands of years later still remember it wasn't *forced* in. Intern, it behaves cooperatively now. That's just one example and people have other theories. It makes the most sense to me. I am thinking a lot of these "plot holes" are simply similar things such as this that people don't wish to see there *can be* a perfectly reasonable explanation for... Oh well...

That's actually a pretty weak defense. A game's canonical material can only exist within the framework of the game itself; external material, such as, "online explanations," cannot count toward fleshing out material that should've been played out within the game proper. Games are just like books in terms of their literary guidelines and requirements; you wouldn't enjoy a book that basically said to you, "Hey, if this doesn't make sense, go online and look at the extra material we've provided to fill in the gaps we failed to fix in the intial printing." If we're going to look on games as legitimate entertainment media (which they are), we MUST hold them to the same standard that we hold other forms of media to. Protecting one over another is just fanboyism, and it's sad.

Further, it's usually not a good idea to tell people they're, "making stuff up," without proof. As much as fneh's comment on, "paying more attention," was a little rude, he's right. Looking into things a little deeper than most is a fine thing, but when you go out and read every piece of fan-fic or developer diary that says, "Well, it really should've been like this...," you can't very well say, "That's what they said it should've been, so that's what it was."

It's also interesting that you question the intellect of those who find Defiance to be a sub-par game; and even more interesting that you question their analytical prowess. Now, I'm no genius, but I do hold a Master of Arts degree in English literature and writing. Additionally, I teach several classes on English composition and literary analysis. I may not be the foremost authority in the world on interpreting literature, but I'd like to think that I know what the hell I'm talking about by this point in my career.

Now, as far as defining specific plot holes, I'd need to play the game again before I could start laying out entire tracts of mistakes for you. Weak? Possibly. However, I got the game on release day during my senior year of college, almost four years ago now (closer to three, given, but rounding up sounds more impressive). I got rid of it about a week later, having finished it three times and being thoroughly dissatisfied with the game as a whole. I do, however, remember a few things...

1.) Vorador: Dead as a doornail, missing a head, and yet somehow he's up and wandering around, doing his own thing. Given that he first showed up in BO 2, but his resurrection was never explained. Kindly don't give me that, "They could've used the heart of darkness on him," crap, either; if it wasn't at least mentioned during the games, it didn't happen. Canon, remember?

2.) Raziel's sudden, inexplicable desire to sacrifice himself. Whatever his "enlightened" understanding at the end of the game, the fact remains that the Blue One had spent the entirety of the series previous trying to forestall his martyrdom; this sudden capitulation to the whims of fate isn't just out of character, it's poorly explained and carried out. I suppose, however, that when development time starts running low, convenient plot contrivances are a simple way to get things back on track.

3.) Let's have a little chat about the Sarafan order, shall we? Raziel broke (re: slaughtered) the entirety of their leadership during the course of SR 2, and yet here they are, still going strong, acting as if nothing ever happened. Call me old-fashioned (or someone with a minor in military history), but last time I checked, when the leadership of a military faction is destroyed, that faction tends to fall into disarray for quite some time; their continued effectiveness as a combat force isn't necessarily destroyed, but they shouldn't be operating at peak efficiency right after their leaders are gutted and slain.

4.) Turel. I'm sorry, I don't buy the time travel explanation. Time travel, at least as far as this series is concerned, seems to be a WONDERFUL way to fix holes and mistakes from previous iterations of the plot arc, but that doesn't make it any less weak. He was left out of SR 1, AND SR 2, in order to provide another boss (and a "cool" encounter) for Defiance. I really don't give two shakes whether or not Amy or the team at CD said this was intentional; it was weak, and the result of a need to cover for an unfinished product in SR 1. In fact, if you've checked out the original plans for SR 1, every game in the series after that shouldn't have happened. The original plan was for Raziel to kill Kain and restore balance to Nosgoth; unfortunately, the game was hurried out the door, left unfinished, and the giant cliffhanger at the end needed resolution.

A resolution we're still waiting for, and unlikely to ever get, given the lack of upcoming LoK games.

I suppose you could point out that the plot runs in circles; it's a continuous, self-replenishing cycle. My response to that is that circular narratives are just like circular logic; weak, uninspired, and without weight/gravity/worth/etc.

Now, please, tell me why I'm just some un-educated "hater" out to ruin the good name of this series. Since, y'know, you apparently missed the part where I said LoK remains a favored series of mine, apart from the abortion that is Defiance. But hey, if I don't LOVE ALL OF IT OMGZ, I must not be a "true fan."

Right.

[The Hylden]

That's actually a pretty weak defense.

Actually, the majority of my "defense" (read: fact) stated that all one has to do is think a bit on most of the things theorized to come up with their own logical explanations and nothing is totally leaving you hanging to invent anything. However, if people don't wish to actually think, then there are the online explanations as well.

Games are just like books in terms of their literary guidelines and requirements; you wouldn't enjoy a book that basically said to you, "Hey, if this doesn't make sense, go online and look at the extra material we've provided to fill in the gaps we failed to fix in the intial printing."

Again, the majority of what I stated did not address going out and looking things up online, but rather thinking for yourself. In a *ton* of fantasy/sci-fi/mystery/etc. series, you are asked to come to your own conclusions. Not everything is spelled out in books so don't hand me that. There are plenty of forums online also for book and movie series theorizing out the wazoo about stuff not totally explained and people also love those series for that very same fact, just as people love to do so for LoK.

Further, it's usually not a good idea to tell people they're, "making stuff up," without proof.

When an exaggerated statement like "There are about 8 million plot-holes in Defiance." comes along, what would you have me say? lol, you're accuracy is impeccable? lmao. Of *course* you're exaggerating, aka: making stuff up:p

Looking into things a little deeper than most is a fine thing, but when you go out and read every piece of fan-fic or developer diary that says, "Well, it really should've been like this...," you can't very well say, "That's what they said it should've been, so that's what it was."

I certainly hardly ever read fan-fics, and even though by now I know the explanations from the developers, officially, the main story I saw and didn't have any questions about. Furthermore, I came to conclusions on my own based on logic from the games about most of the details. If I could add another mistake to the mix, which I will: they should have made those scenes where Raziel is almost, or is, absorbed into the Reaver a little more clear visually. I can still come to conclusions about it, but it got a bit iffy in the beginning simply because the colors of the Wraith Blade were strange, like in Avernus, or simply a lack of explanation as to what exactly was going on. However, that's not the core of things, so that wasn't off to the point I'd consider it a plot-hole. Logically, for instance, I still can see the Wraith Blade forcing him into the physical sword and, with the help of Vampmaster's trainer, we've seen from above that it also slinks down the length of Kain's arm to pull him in at the end before being fully absorbed into Kain (which I thought was happening anyway, but others said no, so that proved it, heh), so problem solved. However, a better camera angle and a little better visuals would have helped make that less unclear at the start. So, yeah, I have minor criticisms. All I am saying is there aren't any "plot-holes" to speak of:p

It's also interesting that you question the intellect of those who find Defiance to be a sub-par game; and even more interesting that you question their analytical prowess.

Strange you took it that way. Perhaps being a little less defensive about your intelect in the future might help, as I am certainly not questioning it, but then again I won't *not* state the truth that all you have to do it read a little more into what you're watching in order to not see plot-holes that don't exist. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Now, I'm no genius, but I do hold a Master of Arts degree in English literature and writing. Additionally, I teach several classes on English composition and literary analysis. I may not be the foremost authority in the world on interpreting literature, but I'd like to think that I know what the hell I'm talking about by this point in my career.

I never asked for, nor could care less about your background or what degrees you've achieved. That's great for you, but it is utterly irrelevant to anything being discussed here. The greatest geniuses in the world has seen didn't necessarily achieve such a great status in schooling, nor is it truly necessary to desypher plots, storylines, or the lagistics of the world. Helps? It can, depending on who you are. Relevant? Not in the least.

Now, to debunk these supposed plot-holes:

1.) Vorador: Dead as a doornail, missing a head, and yet somehow he's up and wandering around, doing his own thing. Given that he first showed up in BO 2, but his resurrection was never explained. Kindly don't give me that, "They could've used the heart of darkness on him," crap, either; if it wasn't at least mentioned during the games, it didn't happen. Canon, remember?

lol, that's *Blood Omen 2's* plot hole, not Defiance's. You have your games mixed up if you think that. Granted, they could have *answered* that plot-hole from BO2 *in* Defiance, but at the time it seemed we were getting a sequel which I can only assume would have answered it, as Defiance ends with Kain pretty vehemently standing there thinking on "hope" and ushering in a new final adventure. That certainly wasn't a "Well, everything's done now" ending. It was an "Ok, now I understand things a bit more and damn it, I've got hope I maybe can do something about it, although it's leaving a bitter taste in my mouth." ending, stating to me that the *real* trials were just to come in Kain's eyes. I don't think the heart of darkness should be used to raise Vorador either. Whatever means he does get his head back on and is able to walk about again is anyone's guess (could be simply as easy as putting it back on and using some spell, or just let his body do the rest – who knows?), but since it neither was talked about, nor necessarily should it be in that timeline of where we were, Vorador's ressurection, or the need for it, then it's still BO2's plot-hole (seeing Vorador is alive 200 years later, leaving that huge window of time) that some game, were there to be a future one, needs to adress finally. Defiance neither made that plot-hole, nor addressed it, so I fail to see how it *is* one for that game.

2.) Raziel's sudden, inexplicable desire to sacrifice himself. Whatever his "enlightened" understanding at the end of the game, the fact remains that the Blue One had spent the entirety of the series previous trying to forestall his martyrdom; this sudden capitulation to the whims of fate isn't just out of character, it's poorly explained and carried out. I suppose, however, that when development time starts running low, convenient plot contrivances are a simple way to get things back on track.

I guess you missed the whole struggle since SR2 of Raziel realizing the possibility existed he could never change that destiny of his. By the time Defiance is about to end and he about to make that sacrifice, Raziel had ran the gambit of trying to find any means he could to stop this from happening, and he was without hope for it, or for stopping the one imprisoning him -- The Elder God. Now, the one choice left open to him he finally figures out. In order to stop that thing and to finally be free of that existence, which you remember he loathed, was to arm Kain to fight it. After enduring however many years or whatever he did in Spectral when we see him in the beginning, after being forced, he thought, to inhabit that "vile carcass" by the EG, if it may have not been possible to evade entering the sword for all time, then at least he still could get revenge on that thing and put an end to the suffering he felt and the suffering of Nosgoth. Not a bad choice at all, imo. We all knew he either would or would not enter the sword, but the possibility of him doing so was very high. It was done very well, I thought. This part, though, is subjective. Your opinion obviously differs, but calling it a plot-hole? Disagreeing with the choice made by a character isn't so much a plot-hole at all, as it is simply a matter of personal taste.

3.) Let's have a little chat about the Sarafan order, shall we? Raziel broke (re: slaughtered) the entirety of their leadership during the course of SR 2, and yet here they are, still going strong, acting as if nothing ever happened. Call me old-fashioned (or someone with a minor in military history), but last time I checked, when the leadership of a military faction is destroyed, that faction tends to fall into disarray for quite some time; their continued effectiveness as a combat force isn't necessarily destroyed, but they shouldn't be operating at peak efficiency right after their leaders are gutted and slain.

Ah, no. Their leadership truly were the Guardians. Yes, he killed their generals, lets say, and yet their chief commanders, at least three of them with Moebius being the only real active one of them left to lead, were still alive and kicking. They were pissed, I am sure. Moebius, giving them his staff to do so, or just telling them to go out and avenge their fallen brethren, wouldn't have much of problem "leading" them to destroy the vampires who did this. Considering their fanatical natures, I don't think they would have broken simply by killing off the highest among them. You can sort of think on this like the Japanese who were losing in battles in WW2 and yet would fight to the very last man, even using kamikaze techniques rather than surrender. That's just one example. I think, however, that's still the beginning of the end of the Sarafan order, especially with Kain tearing the remaining forces to shreds in that game:p Even though it's more or less the game mechanics of how they fought, the Sarafan groups which attack you in that game do behave more like a disorderly mob than a true army, or unit. They just come charging right on in, with perhaps the sorcerers the only ones using any tact at all. lol, btw, its funny how the sorcerers are all male in that game for the Sarafan (not later for Moebius' army). You can kind of speculate that they were forced into it after Raziel literally wiped most of the females who used to do it out in SR2. lol, at least it's kind of amusing for me to think of it that way...:p Anyway, that's another point. Given Moebius raised yet another army, albeit far less organized, 500 years later, he's certainly capable of inspiring the remaining Sarafan to fight to the last man, or woman, for Defiance.

4.) Turel. I'm sorry, I don't buy the time travel explanation. Time travel, at least as far as this series is concerned, seems to be a WONDERFUL way to fix holes and mistakes from previous iterations of the plot arc, but that doesn't make it any less weak. He was left out of SR 1, AND SR 2, in order to provide another boss (and a "cool" encounter) for Defiance. I really don't give two shakes whether or not Amy or the team at CD said this was intentional; it was weak, and the result of a need to cover for an unfinished product in SR 1. In fact, if you've checked out the original plans for SR 1, every game in the series after that shouldn't have happened. The original plan was for Raziel to kill Kain and restore balance to Nosgoth; unfortunately, the game was hurried out the door, left unfinished, and the giant cliffhanger at the end needed resolution.

No, I don't believe that part was rushed. That's been thought of to be introduced way back since the end of SR1. Time travel also is half of what these games are about, so is circular destiny, so is time's "wish," if you will, to maintain order instead of chaos beyond the paradoxes. I felt it a very cool thing for the fans to finally give them the Turel they've been asking for. I personally wouldn't care either way, but it was a nice touch for the group as a whole. Given the fact Anacrothe *was* in BO1 bringing demons from other dimensions *and* times with that device she took from Moebius, it doesn't seem too farfetched to me at all that, under the influence of the Hylden, she'd pick that truly imposing thing to be used for them as a vessel (though she didn't know this, of course) and as the God both she and Mortanius could use to manipulate their followers. A regular demon probably wouldn't have worked in his stead, given in both games Mortanius seemed to wear their bones like trinkets:p But, again, this gets a bit subjective. Eh, probably most of it is. I just don't see plot-holes in all of this, though. *shrugs*

My response to that is that circular narratives are just like circular logic; weak, uninspired, and without weight/gravity/worth/etc.

Eh, not necessarily; it just happens that this particular one is missing a very important part to it -- the actual "end." I truly wish that in my lifetime somehow there will be a conclusion. That's all it would need, really.

Now, please, tell me why I'm just some un-educated "hater" out to ruin the good name of this series.

I see nowhere in my original post where the word "hater" was used, so you aren't obviously quoting *me* there, lol. Like I said above, there's nothing also in my post questioning your education, just the fact you seem to have not chosen, at least, to think on the certain parts that annoyed you in the game in any way but that they are mistakes, which they are not to me, nor most others who've played it, I'll wager.

But hey, if I don't LOVE ALL OF IT OMGZ, I must not be a "true fan."

Right.

Dude, you can love or hate the games all you want, but when you make an outlandish statement like "There are about 8 million plot-holes in Defiance," you're going to get criticized for it as being totally inaccurate and rightfully so:p Either deal with that, or don't. That's up to you. *shrugs* And don’t think I am not getting the exaggeration of the statement either. I am, but *any* statement of plot-holes in any of the games better have something to back them up, because they will get criticized and again they should.

Regardless, it's been fun discussing LoK a bit, as it's been a while since I've had any real reason to do so in such length:D.

[Riovanes]

Alright, I've grown up enough since the last time I was here to admit two things:

1.) I clearly don't spend nearly as much time on this series as you do. Given that I haven't played an LoK game since early 2004, but still, you obviously know a great deal more about it (and care more about it) than I ever did.

2.) You've defeated me on a number of topics; while I could claim that this stems from the fact that I haven't played any of the games in almost three years, I would do better to just admit I shouldn't have opened my mouth without solid ground to stand on.

That being said, I still feel the following needs to be said:

1.) "Theorizing," about a given narrative is fun, yes. Does it add longevity to a series? Certainly. Does that mean the narrative in question is perfect? Oh god no.

The strongest narratives in history resolved whatever plot gaps there might have been in a given section before the end. To say that, "theorizing," makes a weak narrative viable is like saying that Poe would be the same author without the heart beneath the floorboards, or that Melville would be as good if we didn't know that Ahab was hunting a whale. Sure, we could theorize that Poe's protagonist was really trying to figure out why his master (possessed of an "evil eye") was murdered, or why Ahab was so set upon sailing the seven seas; but would we still be studying those texts decades (or even centuries) later?

No, we wouldn't. We'd have cast them into the gutter of obsolescence long ago.

2.) Inasmuch as I've been exceptionally defensive (perhaps I haven't matured as much as I might've thought) during the course of this thread, the fact remains that most of your defense of Defiance stems from the idea that the true value of the narrative present in the LoK series lies outside the games themselves. This is, and always will be, a weak defense of what is presented.

Tell you what; if you ever get in any kind of legal trouble, make sure to tell your counsel that they can only use certain types of evidence, leaving the rest up to the jury to, "theorize," about.

Then, when you're locked up for whatever it is you've done, be sure you only blame the jury for not, "getting," whatever it is you intended them to get.

As a published author, I'm well aware of the devices of implication and inference; however, allowing your audience to infer the entire POINT of the story you're trying to tell isn't brilliant.

It's cheap.

Honestly, that's all I have to say about it. I love the series, up until CD decided to put Defiance out, and then drop the whole thing right there. It's unfinished, un-polished, and genuinely needs a real resolution. That which had absolutely wonderful beginnings was left with the absolute worst of all possible finales, and I find that sad.

[Riovanes]

Dude, you can love or hate the games all you want, but when you make an outlandish statement like "There are about 8 million plot-holes in Defiance," you're going to get criticized for it as being totally inaccurate and rightfully so:p Either deal with that, or don't. That's up to you. *shrugs* And don’t think I am not getting the exaggeration of the statement either. I am, but *any* statement of plot-holes in any of the games better have something to back them up, because they will get criticized and again they should.

Regardless, it's been fun discussing LoK a bit, as it's been a while since I've had any real reason to do so in such length:D.

Before I forget, hyperbole (which you define here as "outlandish") is a standard device of argument and literature.

A little education never hurt anyone.

Second, putting forth your opinions as "fact" is the epitome of arrogance and ignorance. I'm not sure that's what you want to be known for, but if that's what you want, go for it.

[Omega]

[skips several pages of this thread]

The reason - well, one of them at least - why I like the Legacy of Kain series is that it doesn't have to explain itself.

In the first Soul Reaver, the reasons behind Raziel's unique ressurection from The Abyss wern't explained. We wern't privy to the reasons why. Or maybe we where and we glossed over it. Much the same way we don't know how Moebius time travels. Does he use the Chambers? Or does he use his own powers? Why is the Elder God bigger in the barren wasteland of Nosgoth, and smaller when it's lush and green? Ad. nausem.

As for Defiance, well. I agree it was too much like DMC for my liking, however Eidos is a company, and a result they have to make money on their products, else scrap them and move on.

This is what I feel they did with our beloved series.

Raziel and the gang just didn't pull in enough money. The mass populace weren't interested in Vampires and Time Travel and souls. So they didn't buy the game, Eidos didn't make a lot of money, ergo no sequal.

Yes Defiance helped to pull in a new crowd of fans - albeit not very many - but were they the right kind of crowd?

Would they have been interested in Soul Reaver 2, for example? That, for me, was the best game in the series, yet I've heard a majority of Defiance-fans flame it because it was too boring and too much talk.

The series started off as a unique "stand-out-from-the-crowd" bunch of games, but sadly people don't want unique.

They want the latest graphics with mass blood, gore, guts, swearing, and violence. :mad2:

That to me, is why we have no sequal, or closure.

Crystal Dynamics tried something new with Defiance - which to some it paid off - but utimately failed. They should be congratulated for taking that risk, trying to get new people hooked on the series.

[Binky24]

Ooh, I missed such a great exchange of posts!

That said, Riovanes, I must say I do not understand your point right now. The Hylden has presented you with sufficient explanations that whatever plot gaps you see in Defiance are easily explained - provided that one perceives them as plot holes, and pertinent exclusively to Defiance, at all!

Like him/her (err, sorry, The Hylden), of the four issues you presented I don't see the first one as Defiance's plothole, but a hole in the whole story arc; and the three others are not holes to me at all: Raziel's enlightenment is to me sufficiently motivated in the course of the game; the Sarafan recovery is not substantial - that's simply gameplay, and one might well just as easily ask why the temples in SR2 were never decayed enough to prevent Raziel's getting what he wanted, or why Melchiah had that giant meat grinder in his lair.

And finally, Turel has been explained by the designers, and in a way viable in the universum. If you claim that he shouldn't have had to be explained by the designers - now, this is valid criticism. I feel the same way about LotR, you know? The story of Aragon and Arwen shouldn't have had to be included in the Appendices. Except that it was. (Now, given that you have written this:

The strongest narratives in history resolved whatever plot gaps there might have been in a given section before the end.

I wonder what your opinion on LotR is.)

Now, let me dispute this quoted statement. I think that it's a bit imprecise, you know? I think that it should read rather:
The strongest multi-section narratives in history resolved whatever plot gaps relevant exclusively to the given section there might have been in a section before its end. Plot gaps/points relevant to the overall narrative arc (as opposed to the section's narrative arc) are fair play until the overall arc is finished.

the fact remains that most of your defense of Defiance stems from the idea that the true value of the narrative present in the LoK series lies outside the games themselves. This is, and always will be, a weak defense of what is presented.

Not quite. All The Hylden pointed out is that since the overall story arc is not yet finished, it is possible that the remaining plot holes would have been explained in the closing part of the narrative.

Although, I suppose, you might have actually meant that in your rebuttal that even so, the subordinate narrative arc of Defiance should have been able to defend itself on its own. That would be a valid criticism.

Except that, that's always the problem with penultimate parts, isn't it? They rarely can function on their own. (Again here, Book 5 of LotR comes to mind. And Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. And, yeah, The Empire Strikes Back, too. And if you want less modern, less pop-culture examples - oh hey, any book without the last chapter will do well as an example, methinks.)

Therefore, this:

It's unfinished, un-polished, and genuinely needs a real resolution. That which had absolutely wonderful beginnings was left with the absolute worst of all possible finales, and I find that sad.

is, in my opinion, far too harsh. Defiance itself is not unfinished; the arc spread over all the games is. It's this that's in need of a resolution; and, as I wrote before, I think that Defiance actually does a very nice job clearing the unnecessary figures from the chessboard for the endgame.

Oh, and while a hyperbole is a standard device of literature and rhetorics, all it really shows is a lack of concern for precision, and gearing for the effect as opposed to a serious discussion - which is why politicians use it regularly, and scientists almost never.

[TheWatcher]

[skips several pages himself to join the current discussion]

Rio, your problem seems to be with the integrity of the story, and that's fair. The problem is, as it stands the series was never meant to be a contiguous storyline. It stopped and started twice, with BO1 intending to be a standalone game and SR1 originally aiming to end the series but getting shuffled into and open-ended scenario. I'm sure if in the beginning Amy set out to write a story until all was right within Nosgoth we'd have a beautiful, no-plotholes adventure that everyone was happy with. In reality, we have a set of cobbled-together installments where one had to be set on the previous one - written with no thought to the future in mind. With the whole 'history abhors a paradox' thing, I'm sure this proved to be very difficult if not nearly impossible. That may perhaps even be why there will be no LoK6 - they tried writing a conclusion and simply couldn't get around the existing situation without violating something or coming off as downright cheap.

BTW, near as I can figure the heart of darkness *couldn't* have been used on Vorador. It was only 'out of body' twice. The first time was when the sarafan ripped it from Janos and gave it to Mortanius, long before Vorador was executed. The second time when Raz ripped it from Kain to return to Janos he was in possession of it the entire time and never got anywhere near Vorador. Even if it could have been pulled off, the moment it was taken from him he would have died again. :rasp:

[Turaziel]

The series started off as a unique "stand-out-from-the-crowd" bunch of games, but sadly people don't want unique.








And there we have it. Truer words and all that.
Gamers nowadays only want to play games that are either a sequel of dull, recognisable game, or a rehash of older games.

Case in point FIFA... what is actually added to that game each year? Graphics and not much else. It has no plot, no story, no motive for completion...
But it sells well.

LoK is completely different from FIFA. Graphically, each game has pretty much been above average for the time of its release. The cast provide an outstandingly believable performance (even those guys who just have one word in the background!). It has a hell of a plot, a story that would probably rival the Lord of the Rings if it were written, and the motive for completing it? Why, you want to find out what happens to everyone's favourite tyrant.

LoK provides a cast of characters, each of which we all find either endearing, or repulsing.
Kain - a bloodthirsty Vampire overlord, who believes humans are a second class race. But at the same time he is risking everything (including his first born son) to heal the world.
Raziel - a vengeance seeking, hot headed, relatively young creature who wants to payback Kain for killing him. But at the end of everything, he realises Kain was right, and that his own destiny is to fulfill Kain's.
And yes even Moebius - a slimy, scaly, fork tongued manipulator, who has probably been behind a lot more than we've actually seen. But at the same time all of us were shocked by exactly how much he had planned and counted on (tricking Kain into inciting a genocide against his own race? Making Raziel take up the Blood Reaver and so doom himself to his cyclical destiny? - both acts of pure, unbridled genius)

Nowadays when people moan that games are getting dull, or too easy, or have no point, they all seem to be too eager to quickly pick up the next big budget title, while automatically ignoring the lesser known titles.

I mean take games like Advent Rising and Psychonauts.
Psychonauts was an extremely entertaining game. Funny, colourful and a blast. It got better reviews than most big games. But it didn't sell well.
And Advent Rising... aside from a few slowdown problems it was handsdown the best game I ever played. The action was amazing to watch and easy to perform. And the story was just... WOW! The first game of a supposed trilogy, that poor sales have now ended.

The reviewers do their part. They are honest, and if they play a good game they will say so - despite how renowned it is. But the misguided markets continue to pour their money into the wrong franchises

[Riovanes]

The reviewers do their part. They are honest, and if they play a good game they will say so - despite how renowned it is. But the misguided markets continue to pour their money into the wrong franchises

I don't think you can fairly call the market, "misguided," or the franchises it supports, "wrong." The system of supply and demand dictates that where there is no demand, there will be no supply; put another way, if the masses weren't clamoring for yet ANOTHER Madden game, EA would probably stop making them, and move on to something else.

The point seems to have been made (and missed) many times that these companies (CD, Eidos, EA, etc.) are businesses, and businesses are in the business of turning a profit. If a given product isn't selling well, any CEO worth his/her salt will discontinue said product, and seek a more profitable avenue of attack.

That being said, nobody's saying LoK was a bad series. My opinion on Defiance aside, the series as a whole still stands as one of the most brilliant pieces of gaming narrative in recent memory (outside of a few stand-out RPGs, but they're built for narrative, rather than a pure gaming experience). The fact remains, however, that most people seem to regard gaming as a, "lights off, brain off," sort of activity; the less one has to think, the deeper their enjoyment of a given game.

This is not to say that fans of Madden/similar franchises are any less intelligent than fans of LoK, just that their chosen form of entertainment is somewhat less mentally engaging on one level (narrative/plot) than the LoK series is. At this point, easy, accessible diversion sells much, MUCH better than philosophically engaging entertainment; it's a sad fact of life, but that doesn't mean it's, "wrong," just that it's not our bag, and it happens to be more profitable than other avenues of production.

[Binky24]

In reality, we have a set of cobbled-together installments where one had to be set on the previous one - written with no thought to the future in mind. With the whole 'history abhors a paradox' thing, I'm sure this proved to be very difficult if not nearly impossible. That may perhaps even be why there will be no LoK6 - they tried writing a conclusion and simply couldn't get around the existing situation without violating something or coming off as downright cheap.

This is, actually, what I find the most sad and ironic about the whole situation... I agree with you for the most part about the cobbled-together installments: there is no sense disputing the fact, after all - but here, again, I feel that Defiance was actually the exception! As I wrote on the previous page of this thread: with the major loose ends tied up as they are (with the exception of Vorador, of course), there would even actually be a fair chance that LoK6 could stand on its own.

And it would be a good narrative, too, with transformation, redemption and reconciliation as the governing themes. It would not trivial, perhaps, because it'd take a fairly good writer to pull these off without converting Kain into the standard evil-guy-who-turns-good... But far from impossible.

And as for 'getting around the existing situation'... I managed it. :o And since I'm a fairly uncomplicated person, it can't be that much of a feat...

At this point, easy, accessible diversion sells much, MUCH better than philosophically engaging entertainment; it's a sad fact of life, but that doesn't mean it's, "wrong," just that it's not our bag, and it happens to be more profitable than other avenues of production.

That's because playing a story-oriented game is, in fact, much more like reading a book or watching a film than playing a game... It's participating in a story that's already fixed; so, even if you are the player - the acting part - you are, in truth, still only the audience. And the more story-oriented the game, the stronger this feeling of having only a passive role in the story is.

The inevitable, if somewhat paradoxical, conclusion is that heavily story-oriented games should be marketed to readers, not to gamers. Except that, of course, that old social stigma associated with games - namely, that they are not exactly an intellectual pursuit - still persists; and the fact that it is actually true in the majority of cases doesn't help! Book readers are simply satisfied with their books.

(Insert random musings about the effect of aging gamer demographics, the increasing percentage of female gamers, far greater cost of translating story-oriented games into other languages, and so on, here.)

[dumah's wraith]

This is such a cool thread! Nobody's cared enough to get into a debate in months!

My totally unworthy comment after all that incitefulness *drum roll*
Every single loose end doesn't necessarily have to be explained. It adds realism. There was a post a while back about a really long conclusion to the series where Kain does a lot of time travelling just to explain all the loose ends [including once where travels to post sr1, sees Turel being abducted, and then returns to what he was doing]. Explanations are not always necessary except for glaring holes like Vorador's returning to life. It's been established by now that Younger Kain couldn't have revived him, Elder Kain has no reason to, and Janos has no time. Personally I think[not presenting this as fact, Riovanes, so don't get angry about 'theorising'] one of Vorador's fledglings survived and stole her sires' corpse after his execution.

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I love buying a new Madden game every single year. I'm glad that I know what to expect from each game. I'm glad that there aren't any more games like Soul Reaver because they scare me because they aren't like every game I've played before. I wish that they'd just release the same game over and over again with new graphical advancements in each edition. Then those scary new concepts won't bother me any more.

[Paradoxical Life]

I don't know what you guys are talking about. I love buying a new Madden game every single year. I'm glad that I know what to expect from each game. I'm glad that there aren't any more games like Soul Reaver because they scare me because they aren't like every game I've played before. I wish that they'd just release the same game over and over again with new graphical advancements in each edition. Then those scary new concepts won't bother me any more.
...OMG
That's why the commers wins and the art loses....
Titles like Fifa at the top and titles like Okami and Shadow Of Collosus with looow sails...

[Turaziel]

The majority of amazing games are those which get passed over.

ICO, Shadow of the Colossus, Gitaroo Man, Psychonauts, Advent Rising, LoK to name a few.

Maybe it is because gamers like the idea of knowing what to expect in games that means the less typical games are looked over.

I don't get it. Personally, I prefer games that aren't just standard. I like new things, and the experience of playing something different.

[Riovanes]

...OMG
That's why the commers wins and the art loses....
Titles like Fifa at the top and titles like Okami and Shadow Of Collosus with looow sails...

I see you forgot your sarcasm boots; allow me to loan you mine, because it's getting a little thick around here.

Also, ICO and SotC FTW! I will never understand why Sony didn't commission a true sequel to ICO, but a prequel like SotC is just as well, I s'pose.

[vampire][vorador]

The majority of amazing games are those which get passed over.

ICO, Shadow of the Colossus, Gitaroo Man, Psychonauts, Advent Rising, LoK to name a few.

Maybe it is because gamers like the idea of knowing what to expect in games that means the less typical games are looked over.

I don't get it. Personally, I prefer games that aren't just standard. I like new things, and the experience of playing something different.

It's like me. Fifa's and such have gone out of my list long time ago.

The first time I saw Soul Reaver, it was at a friend's home. I didn't even saw what the game looked like. Just looked at the box, saw the pictures, thought Raziel looked really cool in the cover, and next day or so, I bought the game. It wasn't to risky, since this happened in early 2001, so it was at budget price already.

I played the game, and even it was 2 years old, I thought it was the best game I have ever played. It was something new. I had never seen anything like it before.

I don't know why people like to get the same things again and again, but from what I see its just about hype and fanboyism. Wich translates into Hype = marketing + a few hyperboles here and there like "this game has the best AI/graphics you ever seen" + (creation of a wonderful level in the game + make a trailer almost out of that level only + include a few CG scenes to erase from your mind the sensation you have saying that you had seen only one level in that trailer) and fanboyism, I don't know what moves it. But i guess sometimes I'm a little Lok fanboy too, so better not talk much about it :x

If you get hype around a game, you will get success, even if the game sucks in every way. You just have to release some screenshots and CG movies here and there to keep people happy after getting hyped.

[The Hylden]

Riovanes said:

Before I forget, hyperbole (which you define here as "outlandish") is a standard device of argument and literature.

Ha, standard if you mean easy as hell to shoot back down. A factless, baseless exaggeration is nothing to put forth in an argument, litterature, or otherwise.

A little education never hurt anyone.

It sure isn't, but on the reverse, a whole lot of education and awards, degrees, etc. for such, do not translate into a badge of immunity for being told by others you're wrong and this is why. Nor is writing your credential list relevant at all to this argument and only comes across as either arrogant or truly over defensive in nature. Your previous post seemed to acknowledge it was the later.

Second, putting forth your opinions as "fact" is the epitome of arrogance and ignorance. I'm not sure that's what you want to be known for, but if that's what you want, go for it.

Qhoting myself here:

Actually, the majority of my "defense" (read: fact) stated that all one has to do is think a bit on most of the things theorized to come up with their own logical explanations and nothing is totally leaving you hanging to invent anything. However, if people don't wish to actually think, then there are the online explanations as well.

It is a *fact,* not an opinion, that most people coming to this and other sites on forums, including myself, find not plot holes in this game, but on the contrary found enough in them to draw conclusions, theorize on, and certainly enough in the main story arc of Raziel's from the beginning of the game until he chooses his choice at the end to warrant it. That's not an opinion, but a fact. So it is also a fact that it is possible to do this very thing for anyone who wishes to give it a try. Perhaps not everyone will do so, but it is possible and been proven to be, read again: fact, by others and myself doing it. No reason to acquiesce and come to an understanding a bit in your last post and then try and reroute a confrontive stance in this one, either:p

Ok, back on topic:

1.) "Theorizing," about a given narrative is fun, yes. Does it add longevity to a series? Certainly. Does that mean the narrative in question is perfect? Oh god no.

No, no narrative is perfect:p Ask most writers, directors, or what have you, and they will tell you none of their work is perfect, or that they wished they’d have put more in, taken more out, done more with it, etc., etc... Oh, and by the way, the *most* theorizing for any of these games I saw happened with the introduction of Soul Reaver 2. I mean, the forums were alight each and every day with new crazy to logical theories about what happened in the game, or what will next, so Defiance actually toned that down a bit by, as Blinky said, tying most of the things up... Mostly, people have always seemed to find too much complexity, in my opinion, in the events of time travel in LoK and that's been the hardest for most to wrap themselves around, from what I've seen. I personally think it's been handled as masterfully as probably can be in this medium, or at least, the best yet seen.

The strongest narratives in history resolved whatever plot gaps there might have been in a given section before the end. To say that, "theorizing," makes a weak narrative viable is like saying that Poe would be the same author without the heart beneath the floorboards, or that Melville would be as good if we didn't know that Ahab was hunting a whale.

See, that's been my point that you kind of have skipped a few times now. This series doesn't *have* an ending. It was left blatantly open for at *least* one more (and I hope that's all they were thinking about giving it) chapter after Defiance. It's like looking at Moby ****, to continue that reference, without the final confrontation of Ahab and the wale, because it hasn't been written into existence yet... That's the only shame so far about this whole thing...

2.) Inasmuch as I've been exceptionally defensive (perhaps I haven't matured as much as I might've thought) during the course of this thread, the fact remains that most of your defense of Defiance stems from the idea that the true value of the narrative present in the LoK series lies outside the games themselves.

No, my defense has not said that, again. I've said there is enough from the games to make conclusions or to theorize ones, and this was meant outside of the main plot, which is Raziel's and Kain's journey. At the end, when Raziel makes his choice, he ties up his arc and Kain, getting purified, seeing finally hope and the EG, concludes his. The circumstances around their arcs I believe are concluded in the games. Anything outside of the main plot that might not have been spelled out completely are things, just as in all of the other games, that one can draw conclusions about themselves, without looking online or anywhere else for sources. However, if someone doesn't want to think on them and chooses to do that (or to even see if they were right, heh), the creators have given them that option also. That's beside my stated criticisms of the visuals, which I thought could have been better, in certain sequences. You see, I do have my own minor criticisms as well, which are the ones I've stated (though also noting you can logically draw a conclusion on those points also, yourself), but the main plot isn't suffering from them.

Unlike a book, movies and now video games can always have minor details that you have to use your own brain to draw conclusions on. For instance, most of what we learn in these games comes from Kain and Raziel monologuing. They can't do that for the entirety of everything they come across... You have to use your own brain for the rest. Unlike a book series, there is no narration, be it by a character or, more often than not, an undefined third person perspective which can explain each and every detail in length (and yet, often times still only does so selectively;)). Films and now video games require the viewer/participator to take, at times, your own mind and fill in the gaps they, the presenters, cannot take time to dwell on. It happens all of the time in these mediums and again I mean outside of the main theme and plot arcs going.

Take Edward Scissorhands, for example (since we just watched that in screenwriting class for looking at 3 act structure). There are a bunch of anomalies, or areas that just aren't logical or believable even if you suspend belief. You can still pick them apart, if you try. The cookie cutter machine: there's no way that those two mixers on the one robot thing can mix that concoction into dough that fast, nor by their placement, would they even have mixed the center of the bowl. Yet, once it flips, it's perfectly made dough. The cookie cutter feet: they aren't even stepping onto the dough right in half of the shots so you can see with your own eyes they aren't cutting the dough into cookie shapes. The cut in of a close up where they are cutting the dough doesn't save the earlier shot. That whole contraption is a mess, lol, yet you go with it. The only thing working is the thing that cracks open the egg, heh. The hedges Edward cuts: you see them beforehand and they aren't the type that are so insanely unified in structure that you can create such sense shapes from them as he does, nor can he make them grow larger than a house like the dinosaur ones... Not to mention, how'd he get up there to do the cutting if it was that tall? Again, you go with it. At the end: you see blatantly the mob is far, far in front of Kim and Jim already entering the gate to ascend the hill to the mansion. Yet, the next scene has Kim reach the mansion first, with Jim entering that scene a few minutes later. How'd they get there so fast? Secret path?:p The giant ice blocks: where the hell does Edward get those things? There's no way also he's making snow fall in the village by carving them up either. Of course, yet you go with it. What is he? Man, machine, cyborg? Those latex hands he was to receive didn't look like they could have blood pumping ino them or even move:p If he can eat and gets hungry, uh, how does he survive without food up on the hill?

Anyway, those are just the most basic of questions, yet in this world, you go with it. I think they are far worse than anything logistically in LoK so far, lol. Yet Edward Scissorhands is a really good film, to me, though of course you might disagree:p

Tell you what; if you ever get in any kind of legal trouble, make sure to tell your counsel that they can only use certain types of evidence, leaving the rest up to the jury to, "theorize," about.

Depends. If I am being held in fantasy land fictional court, then I might just have them do that:p If it's a factual, real world court, then hell no. The world of fantasy usually has to be theorized on to certain degrees, like I stated above with Edward (as that's nothing more than a fable made more modern). There are certain justifications you have to make for its very existence and other minor points that are fantastical by nature, some that might not be presented in a total logical way. As Blinky said, you can do this with Tolkien, certainly. It doesn't cheapen it at all.

(Have to split this post up into two parts since it said I had 16 "images" and am only allowed 8... -_- It means my Quotes...)

[The Hylden]

It's unfinished, un-polished, and genuinely needs a real resolution.

That ppint I've been agreeing on:p It's an unfinished story as a whole, LoK, that is. It's missing its final chapter. I don't think that diminishes its parts, even BO2 had its worth and the plot-holes created from it are only that because the timeline isn't complete up until that point for us, in my view.

Blinky said:

And finally, Turel has been explained by the designers, and in a way viable in the universum. If you claim that he shouldn't have had to be explained by the designers - now, this is valid criticism.

I also believe that, though they explained that used the time device to bring him back and some of the reason why, it was planned to be explained in further detail in the next instalment, just like Voardor, finally:p lol

Oh, and while a hyperbole is a standard device of literature and rhetorics, all it really shows is a lack of concern for precision, and gearing for the effect as opposed to a serious discussion - which is why politicians use it regularly, and scientists almost never.

lol, that's a better way of saying it and so true;). In an argument such as this, it's just asking to be ripped apart also.

The Watcher said:

Rio, your problem seems to be with the integrity of the story, and that's fair. The problem is, as it stands the series was never meant to be a contiguous storyline. It stopped and started twice, with BO1 intending to be a standalone game and SR1 originally aiming to end the series but getting shuffled into and open-ended scenario. I'm sure if in the beginning Amy set out to write a story until all was right within Nosgoth we'd have a beautiful, no-plotholes adventure that everyone was happy with. In reality, we have a set of cobbled-together installments where one had to be set on the previous one - written with no thought to the future in mind.

hm, I disagree with this. Yes, BO1 was never supposed to have a sequel, but SR1, while originally intended to be different and stand-alone, was changed mid-way when it became clear they didn't have enough time for it. It's probably the most with missing information and deleted mateerial, btw, heh. Riovanes should also note it and SR2 both have more missing than Defiance:p. Anyway, however, once they knew they had to have a sequel, they planned for the future and, though it's been expanded over two more games, each new game was based on the original notes by Amy Hennig of where that story was to go. I think a ton of planning for the future went into each, including Defiance. I don't see them as "cobbled together" at all. They're all very well thought out and keep remarkably concise to their predicessors. There are many sequels to other films and games which stray and do not maintain any continuity, but for the scope of this series, certainly, and even without that mentioned, this one holds firmly to keeping things continuous. I applaud them for that.

In reality, we have a set of cobbled-together installments where one had to be set on the previous one - written with no thought to the future in mind. With the whole 'history abhors a paradox' thing, I'm sure this proved to be very difficult if not nearly impossible. That may perhaps even be why there will be no LoK6 - they tried writing a conclusion and simply couldn't get around the existing situation without violating something or coming off as downright cheap.

That I don't agree with either. Ever series has its continuing parts set from the previous one... They chose, quite vehemently, to end each where they did, with the express understanding that this series had to continue, so the future was well thought up; it had to be. You can't just go, oh well, Raziel will end in the second SR saying that there is no hope because history abhors a paradox and he's doomed and then we'll be locked in a corner, but that's ok; we'll give them something by the end and they'll buy it. That's rubbish. The time theory they went with is consistent and allowable for only certain changes. It's whether or not they decide there will be any from then on that is their choice. It can be done well if they find a means for Kain to introduce one last paradox, if they so choose, and restore everything. It can be done badly as well, but it's definitely doable and they wouldn't have chosen to run with the ending they have if they thought there was no way to move forward from there...

BTW, near as I can figure the heart of darkness *couldn't* have been used on Vorador. It was only 'out of body' twice. The first time was when the sarafan ripped it from Janos and gave it to Mortanius, long before Vorador was executed. The second time when Raz ripped it from Kain to return to Janos he was in possession of it the entire time and never got anywhere near Vorador. Even if it could have been pulled off, the moment it was taken from him he would have died again.

Exactly, that's not going to ever happen:p Kain and Janos are taking up the two current time slots of its use. Sorry, Vorry; maybe in another thousand years or so...:rolleyes:

Dumah's Wrath said:

Every single loose end doesn't necessarily have to be explained. It adds realism.

Well, let's just say instead of loose ends, not every nook and cranny of Nosgoth needs to be monologued for us in detail every moment we look at it for us to go with what we are seeing and experiencing and conclude certain non-essential things on our own, heh.

Wow, now this is a ton and I really have to stop now:p I would address all of the other points about marketing, but let me just make one statement by saying that I think there was a serious lack of marketing involved in these games and that alone is why they have suffered. If you do not spend the money to advertise your product, then you can't help to get people interested to buy it. You can say they did market it, but I never once saw an add spot for any of these games on TV, including Defiance. The trailers online for Defiance weren't telling enough of what it was about either, in my opinion, and tried too hard to be hyped up... TV is still the market to go for moreso than the Internet and anything else for anything you advertise. Even though most all of TV sucks the big one...:p

Also, people are buying games with more of that shallow stuff because that is what’s being marketed to them and the inherent “sex and violence is easy to sell” aspect of humanity. It can rise above trite, if something better is presented to it well, but more often than not, that takes too much work and is too risky for uncaring business people who only care about profit.

(Damn, this is a lot of writing... If any replies come, I might take some days to respond as I am pretty busy with School work... Yikes...)

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

most all of TV sucks the big one...:p


Ha! I totally agree!
And I actually saw a commercial for Soul Reaver 2 a few times when it came out. I was really surprised. All I remember from it is that they showed a scene of Raziel changing realms, and sped it up a bunch though.
Oh yeah, and post 400! WHOOPITY DOOPITY!!!!!

[Binky24]

Wow, lots of interesting points, and a discussion going three ways at one time!

(1)I vouch that we abandon the speculation on Vorador's resurrection. The other two ways are much more interesting.

(2)I have nothing to add apart from trivia on the marketing issue. I just want to say, because the discussion happened to elicit a spark somewhere in the practical part of my brain - the fact is, I freely admit I haven't heard of the majority of the games you people mentioned between yourselves...!

:leaves in hunt of a livejournal community of people with taste in games similar to her own:

(3)Every single loose end doesn't necessarily have to be explained. It adds realism. There was a post a while back about a really long conclusion to the series where Kain does a lot of time travelling just to explain all the loose ends [including once where travels to post sr1, sees Turel being abducted, and then returns to what he was doing]. Explanations are not always necessary except for glaring holes like Vorador's returning to life.

Well, let's just say instead of loose ends, not every nook and cranny of Nosgoth needs to be monologued for us in detail every moment we look at it for us to go with what we are seeing and experiencing and conclude certain non-essential things on our own, heh.

I think I must protest here. I actually agree with Riovanes, who, being a writer and all, knows as well as you do, I'm certain, that not everything has to be explained. (Note to all: that's not sarcasm! Even if it reads like it.) But the point is that, of the four issues he presented, the Turel issue, in particular, would be a glaring hole on the scale of Vorador if we hadn't been given meta-information from the designers. It really isn't explained in the games. All we are told in Defiance is that Turel was abducted. Nothing else.

Now, I remember being one of those people who speculated wildly after SR2 about what would happen next - and know what? The only thing I got right was that we'd see Avernus and that there would be the entrance to the demon world there. The latter of which wasn't even a guess, but a deduction from its name. That's because, while speculating, the human mind tends to use Occam's Razor. The more out-there theories are just... eliminated. And even if someone actually comes up with them, there are also other human minds around to consider. Peer pressure suppresses originality even if internal pressure does not.

So, I'm sure that, if we hadn't been told that Turel was abducted by Azimuth using her portable TSD, even if someone came up with this theory at all, it would have been promptly dismissed as a crack theory by most. That's not cynism. That's realism: the Turel subplot is just one of these things which one has to know it's true to believe it's true. And you might think that it would not be so, but... Be frank with yourselves, even if it hurts. :o (Vorador, anyone?)

So, if Turel had not been explained to us, it would be a major issue on Vorador's scale. And we are only able to dismiss the issue as solved on the basis of information that is not in the game. That isn't good storytelling; this is the storytelling equivalent of a patch released to deal with bugs not resolved before shipping off a game; and this is what, I believe, Riovanes was talking about. (If not, just correct me... I hate writing for other people. It always seems so... presumptuous of me.)

Still. Let's try another conditional sentence: if another game were produced, it would be possible that this glaring hole would be explained in-game. :)

Unlike a book, movies and now video games can always have minor details that you have to use your own brain to draw conclusions on. For instance, most of what we learn in these games comes from Kain and Raziel monologuing. They can't do that for the entirety of everything they come across... You have to use your own brain for the rest. Unlike a book series, there is no narration, be it by a character or, more often than not, an undefined third person perspective which can explain each and every detail in length (and yet, often times still only does so selectively). Films and now video games require the viewer/participator to take, at times, your own mind and fill in the gaps they, the presenters, cannot take time to dwell on. It happens all of the time in these mediums and again I mean outside of the main theme and plot arcs going.

Repent, heretic!

OK. Maybe that's not the best way to put it.

What kind of books have you been reading?

That's not it, either.

The narration in books is the equivalent of the scenery and background in films and games; the facial movements, tone inflections - the many things we don't have to be told in a movie because we see and hear it ourselves. But... dark gods, to say that 'unlike a book', you have to use brain while watching a movie or playing a game...

Eh. No. No, no, no. That's just wrong.

Have you ever heard of a writer called Dorothy Dunnett? I wouldn't be surprised if you hadn't. She's right now in the same curious position Tolkien held for many years: her writing is impossibly erudite, she created a wonderful world and populated it with great characters; some people know of her - but she hasn't become cool enough yet to earn herself a Hollywood blockbuster.

I'm not sure if she ever becomes cool, because unlike Tolkien's, her writing simply suffers no fools. It demands intelligence from the reader. It's not a merry story of going from point A to point B with adventures on the way. It's a game of chess where every character has a chess master's mind; what with his chess analogies, Kain would fit right in, methinks. ;) If you want a challenge, that's it for you. The best place to start are the Lymond Chronicles. (Lymond's a bit of a Gary Stu in the first book, if you know what I mean, but after that, he tones down in a MAJOR way.)

That's in the interest in promoting good, engaging stories. Whatever medium they are presented in. :)

[Riovanes]

Thing the First:

Someone has, finally, spanked me on a weak argument presented with obvious intellectual fallacies.

Thank you.

Now I have to start thinking, and that's always a good thing. Future posts will hopefully reflect my renewed intellectual engagement with forum-based conversations (because outside of a literature forum, how often are you going to find people who know how to poke holes in even a veneer of intelligence?).

Thing the Second:

Binky's right; I was going for the meta-fictional aspect of Turel's presence in Defiance when I pointed it out as weak storytelling. We had NO way to vet that situation for ourselves without outside information from the developers, and that's just terrible on their part.

However, to give a nod to the fact that I'm not always as brilliant as I'd like to think I am, I probably could've stated that much more clearly in my initial post.

Oh, and thanks for the support; when you're getting curb-stomped for being a self-important blowhard, a little bit of backup is appreciated.

Thing the Third:

I've been operating in an informational vacuum as far as LoK is concerned for the last three years. It's obviously high time I picked the games back up again and gave them a thorough run-through before I try to dissect them. It's become quite clear that cleaving to aging memories of games that I was once quite enamored of will no longer suffice in the arena of intelligent argument.

You must excuse this oversight; I'd grown used to dealing with people who were, essentially, unarmed when it came to battles of wits. I see now that I am faced with worthy adversaries; I'll do what I can to live up to that next time I have something to say.

So, yes, there you have it; I fully acknowledge the lack of thought and embarrassing level of arrogance I've displayed here. However, it's difficult to correct problems no one calls you on.

I'm going to go re-align now. Rest assured that if we should have to argue this sort of thing again, I'll try to have my weapons loaded. ;)

[Riovanes]

It is a *fact,* not an opinion, that most people coming to this and other sites on forums, including myself, find not plot holes in this game, but on the contrary found enough in them to draw conclusions, theorize on, and certainly enough in the main story arc of Raziel's from the beginning of the game until he chooses his choice at the end to warrant it. That's not an opinion, but a fact. So it is also a fact that it is possible to do this very thing for anyone who wishes to give it a try. Perhaps not everyone will do so, but it is possible and been proven to be, read again: fact, by others and myself doing it. No reason to acquiesce and come to an understanding a bit in your last post and then try and reroute a confrontive stance in this one, either:p



Just a side note here: hyperbole is weak and baseless, given; but so too is claiming that something is a "fact" without evidence to back yourself up.

Unless you can give me hard data showing that the majority of the people who visit these forums do not find plot holes within the LoK timeline (and come here to debate theories and extrapolations), then I suggest you strike this bit from your argument. You pretty well handed me my head on everything else, but cleaving to a "fact" without support is every bit as foolish as my previous posts were. :p

[Binky24]

Oh, and thanks for the support; when you're getting curb-stomped for being a self-important blowhard, a little bit of backup is appreciated.

No problem. ;) One more time, though, and I'll be inclined to demand recompense for acting as your PR agent. Reading and ripping a fanfic to shreds seems appropriate punishment, methinks, Mr. Writer. :whistle:

I've been operating in an informational vacuum as far as LoK is concerned for the last three years. It's obviously high time I picked the games back up again and gave them a thorough run-through before I try to dissect them. It's become quite clear that cleaving to aging memories of games that I was once quite enamored of will no longer suffice in the arena of intelligent argument.

Oh, gods. Now, he'll be dissecting games. And when you decide that all these vampires in SR1 couldn't possibly get to the places where they are encountered, and how did those vampire hunters got to the Silent Cathedral, anyway - why don't you mention the matter of "why the Eagles didn't take Frodo to Mordor", too?
(That was sarcasm, btw. I'm slowly losing the ability to determine if my intent will be read appropriately or not, these days.)

I'm going to go re-align now. Rest assured that if we should have to argue this sort of thing again, I'll try to have my weapons loaded. ;)

Are we, though? In other words, is that a promise? Because... how to say this, I'm pretty interested in how people envision that last game that we're missing. So, after you decide that, in fact, Raziel's queening and turnaround in Defiance hasn't been all that abrupt and unexpected :p I'd be glad to see how you'd finish the narrative, Mr. Writer. :lol: (Am I the only one who pities his students? The poor souls must be terrified.)

[The DarkOne]

why don't you mention the matter of "why the Eagles didn't take Frodo to Mordor", too?


come to think of it, why didn't the eagles take Frodo to Mordor?:scratch::lmao:

[Zulgbrtzchllha]

Noooo, I want a FL4M3 W4R!!1111 And everyone talking like B1FF!!!
Yeah, why didn't the Eagles take Frodo there? Well, maybe the Nazgul would have noticed and ripped them to shreds. And totally off topic here, but is anyone else sick of Lords of the Rings "fans" who don't even know who Tom Bombadil is? I mean how now people seem to only think of them as movies. Bah!

[Riovanes]

Noooo, I want a FL4M3 W4R!!1111 And everyone talking like B1FF!!!
Yeah, why didn't the Eagles take Frodo there? Well, maybe the Nazgul would have noticed and ripped them to shreds. And totally off topic here, but is anyone else sick of Lords of the Rings "fans" who don't even know who Tom Bombadil is? I mean how now people seem to only think of them as movies. Bah!

Zulg, I will grant you all things but the sacred BAH.

That's mine.

BAH!!! :p

[Binky24]

come to think of it, why didn't the eagles take Frodo to Mordor?
Well duh, because of narrative imperative. In other words, it's a plot hole necessary to make the book possible. And now, decide for yourself whether the fact that you know of this plot hole is enough to make you lose interest in the books or not.

And totally off topic here, but is anyone else sick of Lords of the Rings "fans" who don't even know who Tom Bombadil is?
I find that I'm impossibly elitist, and that I actually started hating LotR around the time of the movies. :lmao: Right now, my rage is decreasing a bit... But, err. Is it evil of me that somewhere in the depths of my black, misanthropic heart, I don't want the authors of my favourite books to earn themselves a little money by having Hollywood (important!) movies made of their books? They are MY favourite books! MY, I tell you! My precioussss...

This discussion certainly deviated a long way from the original topic. :lol:

[The Hylden]

The DarkOne asked:

come to think of it, why didn't the eagles take Frodo to Mordor?

But, didn’t you know? They did!:D For your viewing enjoyment:p The DivX web player is easy to install, if you haven’t done so already. You can also look for it on YouTube, which seems to be down right now... “How it Should Have Ended” or “How Lord of the Rings Should Have Ended.” Just search for something like that on YouTube.

http://howitshouldhaveended.com/Divx%20links/LOTR.html

Now then,

Blinky Said:

But the point is that, of the four issues he presented, the Turel issue, in particular, would be a glaring hole on the scale of Vorador if we hadn't been given meta-information from the designers. It really isn't explained in the games. All we are told in Defiance is that Turel was abducted. Nothing else.

So, if Turel had not been explained to us, it would be a major issue on Vorador's scale. And we are only able to dismiss the issue as solved on the basis of information that is not in the game. That isn't good storytelling; this is the storytelling equivalent of a patch released to deal with bugs not resolved before shipping off a game; and this is what, I believe, Riovanes was talking about.

I must disagree in turn, heh. I also am a writer (though not published, or anything), btw, so yes, we all know about stuff being put in, or left out, depending on our respective whims (nice and Kain-like, eh?:p). Turel isn't quite on the scale of Vorador. These games have always employed time travel; in fact, it's the hallmark of the driving force in them, with characters bouncing all over through time. So, Turel coming from the future isn't a stretch at all. It's far less of one than a dead character rising from their finite state, as in Vorador. It's that much more shocking whereas time-traveling lesser characters aren't quite as much. We are given part of the why, being that he and Mortanius both tell us he's being used as the God Mortanius' and Azimuth's followers believe in. That's part of the why, but enough of one that it's a motivation on one of their parts, at least. Now, I didn't think Azimuth pulled him back from just the game, no. What we are given only lends to Mortanius' role in this (btw, I think someone did theorize on Azimuth using the time streaming device long ago, but I don’t remember if anyone, including myself, bought into it. Perhaps it was a “Hm, sounds interesting.” at the very least...). However, I don't also need to know in this instalment totally, if there was to be a sequel explaining it further. Unlike Vorador, who's pretty crucial to things, Turel, while still if we aren't told anything and he's just plopped in there would be bad storytelling, yes, having part of the reason why he’s there and the rest shrouded in mystery for now doesn't quite lend itself to being a true plot hole. We know how, to some degree. He was brought back by some force after the "darkness and great hunger..." We know why, to some degree: to be used by both the Hylden's and Mortanius', at least, purposes. We aren't given the full specifics, but those can be easily covered if in fact the final instalment comes into being. And the timing of delivery on those specifics becomes far less important if we're told now or later than other more crucial elements to the overall arc. If, let's say, Kain goes backward in time to find out how Azimuth crosses over into the Demon Dimension, potentially on a quest to free Janos in the future when he becomes trapped, in their dialogue a few words from her would finalize the specifics and we're done with that bit of information. See, none of this is left so wide open. Even Vorador's situation can be easily remedied, I believe, but this one was far less of a potential plot hole than it is being given credit for, imo. I do not see it as one.

Still. Let's try another conditional sentence: if another game were produced, it would be possible that this glaring hole would be explained in-game.

Again, I don't see a "glarring hole" here, but yes to the overall statement. It's what I've been saying all along:p This story, ultimately, is not finished, which is why judging it like it is seems foolish to me. In Stephen King's Dark Tower series, I don't think fans were going "look at all of these lose ends!!" even waiting however many years it's been for the latest one to come out, and I haven't read the latest one, so I am not sure still if it's finished:p Until it is and he says it is, whatever misteries he's kept from the readers about things, or whatever hasn't been explained yet, either on purpose or decided later to be cut and added later by him, aren't plot holes or bad writing on his part. You can make than analogy with each and every series still in progress also.

Repent, heretic!

OK. Maybe that's not the best way to put it.

What kind of books have you been reading?

That's not it, either.

The narration in books is the equivalent of the scenery and background in films and games; the facial movements, tone inflections - the many things we don't have to be told in a movie because we see and hear it ourselves. But... dark gods, to say that 'unlike a book', you have to use brain while watching a movie or playing a game...


You see, you're taking what I said in a way that’s far off from my intention; you are also going to be proving one of my points, which I will get to in a moment:p

I did not say you *don't* use your brain to read and interpret what you are reading. You should give me a bit more credit than to jump out on that limb for such a radical conclusion:p I thought my Edward Scissorhand analogy would have been enough to further illustrate what I meant, but apparently not. I'll explain it further. Yes, of course the visuals are there, crafted in each scene, each shot, as well as the audio sources. That's still no guarantee that the audience will get a lot of what's going on around the main plot of the film, or even some of the main plot themes (as we aren't being specifically read to, like a book litterally does; yes, you are the reader, but the words and your inner monologuing of them are essentially the storyteller and your imagination and all else in your brain simultaneously the listener), depending on the person and the way the film has been constructed, are truly left open a lot of times to interpretation. While you do this also in books, you do it in different ways. You take the specific words and imagine from them the visuals and the sounds, etc. It's both far less subjective because it is the written word, which isn't quite as easy to missinterpret as sometimes the slight of hand in film can be, yet it also can be the most subjective, paradoxically, given that each person's sense of what a word or description is is fully up to their imaginations. Each person can see in their minds a different rose for the word rose, have a slightly different take on the smell, and even be far more emotionally disparite on what it means to them, which can greatly affect their take on its use in the book. Movies reverse this paradox, to a degree, because while you see whatever the filmmaker wants you to, hear whatever they've presented, you aren't being told ultimately what the context is and you draw the gaps between scenes, between mood and color, and all other elements in film, totally inside of your mind.

[The Hylden]

While there are certainly just as many people who have just as many differing opinions on if a certain book is good or not, or if they get it or not by the end, in films, it is so much easier to lose the adudience to your meaning without the spelling out of it in print for them being right there. Do you see what I mean now? Let me use the most extreme of examples to further convey my point: Around 1919, a Soviet "film director and theoretician," Leo Kuleshov, conducted an imfamous experiment on aduiences demonstrating the power of our own psyches to make correlations in imagry where there may never have been any. Known as the "Mozhukhin Experiment," he pieced together a montoge showing a stoic and expreshionless shot of a close-up of a man interspliced with three radically different images. These were: a bowl of soup, a smiling child, and a dead body. The shot of the man was a famous actor in the Soviet Union named Ivan Mozhukhin and was archival footage, not shot for this project at all. So, there wasn't ever to be any connection between these shots, nor did he offer any expression in the clip chosen to suggest such. However, when screened for audiences, *they* connected the dots of the shots and made up their own interpretation of his "performance." In the first sequence with the soup, they thought he expressed great hunger. Just look at it written on his face:p With the smiling child, they thought he looked so pleased to see that child. With the dead body, they thought he expressed great sorrow and sadness at seeing it, and *even* went so far as to interpret that the body was of his mother... You see? There's a ton of psychological forced connections going on with only the visuals and no narration, along with potentially extreme cognitive reasoning taking the place of what might be told to us in book form. You know if a character has that emotion because you are told it. Yet, as far as further thinking on him, what he's like, etc., that all may still be laid onto your experience by your own imagination minus the visual and audio film has. They both have their need of the person participating to use their brains...

I hope, truly do, that this explained better what I meant for you.

Video games, especially this series, take their liking more to film, which is why I used that as an analogy. However, lol, with that said, I've always regarded the LoK universe of games here as an interactive book series, or perhaps a combination of both. There's no real reason for me saying that other than the narration included, perhaps, but it still feels like the best combination of all of these elements so far, not-withstanding the RPGs mentioned I also have never played:p lol

Oh, and also, have you not ever sat there with a person watching a film who is constantly asking you about what just happened?:p That’s one of the most irritating things ever... I have an ex who used to do that all of the time... However, it’s back to my point. People can miss so much without it being spelled out to them sometimes... It’s like, just pay attention, but then everyone doesn’t follow a visual narrative the same way, or a written one either, yet at least there’s more to keep them on track by the direction the writer wants them to go in a novel. It’s not fool-proof by a long shot. But film, visuals... That’s really tough sometimes for people. Others have no problem at all... Depends really on the film, though. Ok, enough of me going on about this:p

Just a side note here: hyperbole is weak and baseless, given; but so too is claiming that something is a "fact" without evidence to back yourself up.

Unless you can give me hard data showing that the majority of the people who visit these forums do not find plot holes within the LoK timeline (and come here to debate theories and extrapolations), then I suggest you strike this bit from your argument. You pretty well handed me my head on everything else, but cleaving to a "fact" without support is every bit as foolish as my previous posts were.

Well, I believe it to be so, but I am not going to argue on it and certainly am not going to go do all of that work, lol. Let’s say for now it’s my belief of it – my opinion of it – to be true and leave it go at that. It’s not the crux of my arguments anyway and unless someone else who’s got a lot of vacation time they wish to waste on this, or just simply loves the hell out of facts and figures, wishes to tally all of that up, lol, I think it’s best to say I concede to it not being a fact I can readily prove right now and move on from there:p Hm, unless someone wants to again be so enterprising as to start up a poll here:p Heh, any takers? Didn’t think so...

Also, the argument still has been engaging. No worries on any of it.

Damn, I am writing novels here myself...:p I need sleep...

[Binky24]

I must disagree in turn, heh. I also am a writer (though not published, or anything), btw, so yes, we all know about stuff being put in, or left out, depending on our respective whims (nice and Kain-like, eh?).

Sigh. So, now, I must differentiate between Mr. Published Writer out there and Mr. Unpublished Writer here? :rolleyes:

Can I at least beg you to spell my nick correctly in return? :p (Aside: Gods, how I hate it. Is there really no way to change it?)

I think that we must agree to disagree on the minutiae of the Turel issue. The main part, we agree on, so let's just... drop the matter, shall we?

And now, for the book vs. movie issue... What you are speaking of now is simply intersubjectivity. Sigh. The issue now defined and termed properly, I can finally rest in peace and try to explain to you my position.

There's a ton of psychological forced connections going on with only the visuals and no narration, along with potentially extreme cognitive reasoning taking the place of what might be told to us in book form. You know if a character has that emotion because you are told it. Yet, as far as further thinking on him, what he's like, etc., that all may still be laid onto your experience by your own imagination minus the visual and audio film has. They both have their need of the person participating to use their brains...

Yes, but a book also produces additional connections going on the subconscious level. Words have positive or negative connotations in themselves, and so does sentence stress... Oh, heck. For example, I'm intelligent and ugly, all right? Now, you can say that She's ugly, but brilliant, or that She's brilliant, but ugly. Or She's a nerd. Or She's a well-educated young woman. Or even She's a Mensan and a polymath, if you insist. :lol: And already in the word choice - not even in the fact that you, the author, decides to allude to the lack of my looks or not - and in the sentence stress, you convey tons of subconscious connotations (Ergh. Sorry for the personal trip, by the way. I'm freezing here.) which you can use to attempt to make the reader sympathise with a character or not. (Whether they will is, of course, as you wrote, the matter of personal experiences.)

And you wrote that You know if a character has that emotion because you are told it. But that's not always true! The character can be described from the outside, through the eyes of another character. The other character can not know the first character well, and may not know that, for instance, combing through hair is a standard prelude to aggression in him/her. You wrote this before, too, when you mentioned the playing with POVs and how they can be used to limit info feed to the reader, so I frankly don't see why you decided to neglect this all of a sudden. POVs can be chosen, and need not be truthful, either; scenes can be wrote in detail or summarised in a sentence - and that's the equivalent of forcing a film's audience to put stress on this or that thing. :o

'm sorry 'm talking about such trivial matters, but I frankly still don't understand why you used the opposition here:

Unlike a book series, there is no narration, be it by a character or, more often than not, an undefined third person perspective which can explain each and every detail in length (and yet, often times still only does so selectively). Films and now video games require the viewer/participator to take, at times, your own mind and fill in the gaps they, the presenters, cannot take time to dwell on. It happens all of the time in these mediums and again I mean outside of the main theme and plot arcs going.

If you straighten this out to:
In books, films, and now, video games, the narration can be discontinuous and/or presented from (a) subjective viewpoint/s, requiring the audience to participate actively and fill in the gaps.
or simply
Many things are not told explicitly, but implicitly contained in the formal layer of the production. (Which, by the way, I assure you I know are two different things; but you've been writing of both, actually!)
then wouldn't many things be easier? :p And we could then speak of Macharey, or however that guy was called, who postulated that it's as important to criticise what the author intended, explicitly or implicitly, to put in a production, as that which was inserted into the production unconsciously, and that which isn't there at all. :lmao: First example: why did I feel it necessary to allude to my IQ? Does this come from my subconscious desire to be recognised as an equal? From my inner insecurity? Or did I do it just so that I could now provide these questions? And why should anyone care at all? :lol:

[Umah Bloodomen]

***Begins to think that this thread appears to be getting personal and telepathically coveys to the participants that we should try to avoid that so anything posted isn't taken out of context especially with the "BAH-master" involved. *** :rasp:

So, how 'bout that Wii? :D

[Riovanes]

[i]
So, how 'bout that Wii? :D


I really like mine.

I play with it all the time.

Sometimes my fiancee plays with it too.

:whistle:

[Umah Bloodomen]

:lol:

[Azrael]

Heh, one leaves these forums for some time and you guys wreck this place with long posts and Bah™'s* :rolleyes: :p

In other words: i'm back.

And to stay on topic, i'm also hoping that another LoK game is made.. until then one can only dream and re-play the old games again :)



* - Bah became a registered trademark of Riovanes by using it more times than god made possible.

[Riovanes]

* - Bah became a registered trademark of Riovanes by using it more times than god made possible.


Silly Azrael; didn't anybody tell you? In my own little world, I AM god.

In the words of Adam Savage, "I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"

Now excuse me while I go accept praises for my genius from my horde of adoring followers. Or, rather, while I go run like a frightened child from the group of level 40 Horde members that have been plaguing Darkshore on the Cho'gall server. (Someday, you blasted Troll, I will make 70; and then I shall backstab and eviscerate your silly tusked-self into oblivion, before spawn-camping your body to ensure that YOU have to take the experience hit for not being able to res your own corpse.)

/WoW geek.

[Azrael]

Silly Azrael; didn't anybody tell you? In my own little world, I AM god.

In the words of Adam Savage, "I reject your reality, and substitute my own!"

Now excuse me while I go accept praises for my genius from my horde of adoring followers. Or, rather, while I go run like a frightened child from the group of level 40 Horde members that have been plaguing Darkshore on the Cho'gall server. (Someday, you blasted Troll, I will make 70; and then I shall backstab and eviscerate your silly tusked-self into oblivion, before spawn-camping your body to ensure that YOU have to take the experience hit for not being able to res your own corpse.)

/WoW geek.

That creeps me in so many ways, but i feel like transfering my Jedi toon to WoW just to saber you down :scratch: :D

[Riovanes]

That creeps me in so many ways, but i feel like transfering my Jedi toon to WoW just to saber you down :scratch: :D


I've never understood why people refer to their characters as "toons." "Toon," is short for, "cartoon," and, "platoon," but where in the word, "character," does, "toon," ever come into play?

Anyway, yeah, if you get the game, jump onto the Cho'gall server and look for Ryohvahnen. I'm planning on pushing through to level 20/21 tonight, and 25-28 by the end of the weekend. I'm taking the day off from teaching and office hours for my birthday next Thursday (I'm gonna be all of 25) to play too; if I'm lucky, I'll be in the 40 range with a mount and one hell of a bad attitude by the end of next week.

Oh, but watch out for the Trolls. They have a habit of sneaking into Alliance territory and lying in wait near some of the more profitable instances. Nobody needs a hatchet in the back during their first week online. ;)

[3pwud]

I've been away for some time too but my friend bought me an xbox for having looked after his cat for 2 and a half years so for that I bought Defiance and swept through it (late late nights I'll tell you because I was so HOOKED). I had only played it on the PC and completed it once before, I while ago...

So I came back to look for news and it's the same old stuff that has been here since before I left.

Amy has gone (kinda a big problem I'd imagine since the story is rather complex. Maybe they need her guiding hand?)...

Yeah the story is extremely open to new stories and I dare say whoever makes it needs to be damned careful as to not contradict previous games. For the loyal fans we are, we'd sure be *****ing about such things and I can imagine they wouldn't want to bother with such a huge responsibility!

I've heard a possibility of a Baldur's Gate III.... HMMMM! :thumbsup:

[shlmysfb]

I've heard a possibility of a Baldur's Gate III.... HMMMM!

Where'd you hear that?:eek:

[3pwud]

Well admittedly it has been on and off for several years now but with the rights passing to a Atari a few years ago and them mentioning that among other games like KOTOR 2 they will also be releasing other games like BG3.

I can't find the quotes exactly but everything can be seen clearly here (http://forums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=419183&forum=17)

Another problem I see which I hadn't mentioned was that Tony Jay has now died and that too may be causing problems.

Anyone realise that Raziel's voice actor is 74???

[fneh]

Anyone realise that Raziel's voice actor is 74???

raziel himself was older...