Anyone here actually take archeaology...

[MV_AgustaF4]

;) Did anyone even notice that Tomb Raider Legends is one of the few Tomb Raiders to be about a real artifact. As far as i know from Tomb Radier 1 there's never been a Scion of Atlantis and it was just made up for the game. And i've never heard of a Dagger of Xian in Tomb Raider 2, from chinese mythology. And then of course the artifacts made from that meteorite in Tomb Raider 3 are made up for the game. I dont know if an Amulet of Horus or Set is actually written about by the Egyptian like they had in Tomb Raider The Last Revelation. Tomb Raider Chronicles actually had another artifact that might be real, the Spear of Destiny. And then that weird species in Angel of Darkness was also made, was there even an artifact she was after in Angel of Darkness? And then we come to Legends which is actually one of the few Tomb Raiders with an artifact that has been mentioned in history.
I wonder in the next Tomb Raider what the artifact will be?
It's ironic that Lara has the Ark of the Covenent in here mansion when you play Tomb Raider 1 and 2, the same artifact Indian Jones was looking for in Raiders of the Lost Ark. :eek:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/mv_agusta/arkholding.jpg

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b222/mv_agusta/arkofthecovenant.jpg

[dhama]

Something i'd love to do, but forget about guns LOL.

Interesting about the artifacts in TR, of course there really was an Atlantis, so maybe there is a scion down there somewhere. :)

[Faye]

more of Tomb Raider's storyline has been based on actual myths, legends and histories. You say that the "weird species" from AOD was fictional...it most certainly wasn't! The concept of the Nephilim race has been around for a long, long time, many people believe that they really existed. There have been many references to reality in Tomb Raider. Here are some more examples:

Tomb Raider: Natla was based on an old Egyptian (I think) myth, about a female ruler, or perhaps the daughter of a male ruler. Some people have theorised that Natla was not Egyptian, but in fact the Queen of Atlantis. This is where the inspiration for her character in Tomb Raider came from. There is no concrete evidence for Natla's existance. The Atlantean myth also mentions a king, but I can't remember his name! I know it was either Qualopec or Tihocan...(Core Design apparantly took Natla and the king and invented a third person...but I can't remember which was based on myth and which was invented by Core Design!). Then there's Vilcabamba, the ancient Incan city. In history, Vilcabamba was said to be the final stronghold of the Inca.

Tomb Raider III: Adventures Of Lara Croft: Apparantly the Egyptian ghost that haunts the museum in the game was based on claims that the real life equivalent of that particular muserm is huanted by an Egyptian lady.

There are many more, Nessie, Set, the Philosopher's Stone, the Roswell conspiracy, the Freemasons...lots of references. Core Design didn't make all this up (although that would make them remarkably talented). You'd be surprised at what you'll find if you try looking for the basis of the Tomb Raider stories. As you mentioned, the Spear of Destiny certainly wasn't fabricated by Core Design.

Unless you mean real as in actually existing and not mythical? Well there are so many wonderful myths and legends out there, it doesn't matter if their existance has been definitely proven or not. They can exist in Tomb Raider, as it's just a story too. Surely that's the whole point? Tomb Raider gets to use the old myths and legends? Otherwise we'd have no Set or Horus, no aliens, no dinosaurs, no Atlantis, no Yeti! Tomb Raider is rich in history and myth!

[Faye]

We can't really talk about archaeology in terms of Tomb Raider though, can we? It's not like they have much in common! You see, what Lara does is nothing like actual archaeology. Although she is an archaeologist (so we're told) what we actual see her doing is just her adventuring. Apparantly she does archaeological work too, though, I suppose that isn't quite exciting enough to make into a game though!

Archaeology is wonderful and exciting, but in a different way. It's not exactly run-in-with-guns-blazing-dodge-the-boulders-and-grab-the-icon. But I suspect you already know that. What Lara does is shocking! She discovers ancient buildings, still very much intact given their age, and basically vandalises them!! It's terrible. But I forgive her for it. ;)

[Mangar The Dark]

I remember being disappointed with how TR1 handled Atlantis. I had played "Indiana Jones And The Fate Of Atlantis" before, and I loved the way they incorporated elements of Plato's dialogue into the Atlantis found in the game (the concentric ring structure, the temple in the center, orichalcum, elephant and bull statues, etc), so I had hoped TR1 would do something similar, but it seems the designers just let their imaginations go wild.

[dhama]

Well Lara is fantasy so why not the adventures. ...

You'd have a field day if you saw some of the adventures custom level builders have put her through.. :D

[gopher666]

If atlantis did exist it would definately not look anything like what Plato said. Plato came over 2000 years after Atlantis and he described how he envisaged a true democratic civilisation would be live. Elephants were the most exotic animals they knew about at the time but I'm pretty sure that the Atlantis wouldnt have those animals wandering down their pretty streets leaving their mess all over the place

Nephilims did exist. All you Christians out there should be ashamed of yourselves. Go read your bibles - Genesis I think.

The only artifacts that I'm not sure about are the Dagger of Xian, the Eye thing at the start of TR4 that traps Von Croy, The Iris from the last section of chronicles.

And I can't remember what Young Lara got in chronicles

[Faye]

I didn't mean that I didn't believe in the Nephilim! :D

Whether or not I believe I don't yet, I still know little about them. However a friend of mine is currently researching the Nephilim, so I'll have to have a listen to what he has to say to educate myself!

He's also researching Atlantis.

[Faye]

Young Lara in TR5 wasn't going after anything in particular, just satisifying her curiousity about the mysterious island that the adults were so keen to keep her away from. There did end up being an artefact of interest though...the bestiary, which I think would literally be a "book of beasts"? Anyway, it's a very old book full of information on demons and how to protect yourself from them.

[David 070]

i dont,but i watch sg1 alot.daniel jacksons always talking about it.lol :p

[Mangar The Dark]

If atlantis did exist it would definately not look anything like what Plato said.

True enough, but I still thought it was much more interesting in Fate Of Atlantis to see Indiana Jones walking through a place that was based on SOMETHING, rather than the TR version, which as far as I can tell, was based on nothing. (the obvious problem with both versions, of course, is that Atlantis would not have had a roof... it was a city!) And while Atlantis may not have looked the way Plato suggested, it certainly would have looked nothing like how it was presented in TR.

[TJSimulation]

more of Tomb Raider's storyline has been based on actual myths, legends and histories. You say that the "weird species" from AOD was fictional...it most certainly wasn't! The concept of the Nephilim race has been around for a long, long time, many people believe that they really existed. There have been many references to reality in Tomb Raider. Here are some more examples:

That's weird...I didn't know the Nephilim race concept was actually from real life! I speculated that Brother Obscura might have been an actual person.

Out of boredom, I looked up Tiwanaku in Microsoft Encarta, and the pic they had showed a carving that looked almost completely identical to the ones found inside/outside the tomb in TRL. Tiwanaku is also called Tiahaunaco..I'd give you the excerpt about Tiwanaku and "The Gateway of the Sun," but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do that, since encarta is copyrighted (I could give credit and such, but I don't want to risk it anyway).

It's amazing what you can learn in the TR series!

EDIT: Tiahuanaco is actually a group of early Peruvian people. :cool:

EDIT 2:
...I can't remember what Young Lara got in chronicles
I played it recently, when I wanted to go retro and play my PS1 games--and she was just exploring basically--she was at Gallows Tree on Black Isle, somewhere. In case you don't remember, the story there is kind of off-beat, starting off with Lara finding a heart for the demon she met there, and then searching for something else--and after all that, she finds an undead horseman--his name started with a V or something...I don't remember...:confused: I don't know what she was searching for though...

[Sophia Leigh]

There is plenty of mythology surrounding Xian which is the ancient captial of China. Check out this link (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/x/xian.html) (click on the Kun-lun link within), I think this is what level 16 - the floating islands might be based on.


Also here's where they may have got the idea for a dragon at the end and the dagger from http://www.sommerland.org/ondragons/mythology/mythology_2.html

Lu Dongbin (also Lü Dongbin) is the best known of the Eight Immortals (also Ba Xian or Pa Hsien [Storm, 2002]); eight otherwise ordinary people who attained immortality by achieving perfect union with the essence of life (Littleton, 2002). The eight were first linked to one another around the 14th century, and quickly became popular. Lu Dongbin was born in the 10th century AD and represented the administrative class. While a student under the Immotal Zhongli, a fire dragon presented him with a magic sword which he used to mask himself while in heaven (Storm, 2002).[Top]

[gopher666]

I just had an afterthought.

I think the reason that Atlantis was designed as a pyrimid is because there was this theory around that Atlantis was the connection between why Egypt and Aztecs both had very similar religious monuments. ie, the pyrimids.

I think the theory was that Atlantis did exist and after it was destroyed there were some survivors which ended up in Mexico and Egypt and taught the locals how to build them.

Just remember that the Aztecs thought Cortez was their God Quezecoatl who also came from the sea and brought civilisation to them. And the Egyptians thought that their Pharoah was a God (maybe the original one was Atlantian)

Btw, Nephilims were known to be pale, (albino). Moses was albino and come to think of it so was Quezecoatl!

[Mangar The Dark]

I just had an afterthought.

I think the reason that Atlantis was designed as a pyrimid is because there was this theory around that Atlantis was the connection between why Egypt and Aztecs both had very similar religious monuments. ie, the pyrimids.

That's a very intelligent thought... I hadn't thought of it, but you may be on to something. Even if the designers weren't thinking that way, your reasoning makes sense.

[star girl]

Nephilims did exist. All you Christians out there should be ashamed of yourselves. Go read your bibles - Genesis I think.


I'm a Muslim, don't believe in 'Nephilims' really, but something maybe more sinister, the 'Dajjals'. But that's not the main point.

Lara is an archaelogist, but like above said, she's adventuring more. I once read that many archaeologists dont just have to be good in history/geography to be an archeaologist (even if archaeology is another subject). people in good in drawing are also preferred because you have to DRAW the pots and stuff you find. lara's just a woman with twin guns exploring, adventuring and killing baddies on her way!

[gopher666]

I don't know what a Dajjals is, but maybe its the same thing as nephilim. Everyone has a big flood, why not a demon spawn too. I don't want to get into a big religious debate but God, Allah, Buddha, are just different names for the same all powerful being. The different religions just show their faith in different ways. Not one religion is better than another because it is simply having the faith which holds the future to your soul.

Anyway, there are different types of archeologists and not all of them dig in the dirt and make drawings. Although having said that I do recall Lara digging between the paws of the sphinx in TR4.

[MV_AgustaF4]

Archaeology is wonderful and exciting, but in a different way. It's not exactly run-in-with-guns-blazing-dodge-the-boulders-and-grab-the-icon. But I suspect you already know that. What Lara does is shocking! She discovers ancient buildings, still very much intact given their age, and basically vandalises them!! It's terrible. But I forgive her for it. ;)

Actually if you think about, and say you were looking for the ark of the covenant or something, if you found it it would be worth more than probably the mona lisa, making it $100s of millions of dollars. If someone else was looking for it too, then in real life you would need guns because people would shoot each over it just because of how much it would be worth. If you had the mona lisa in your house you would be so screwed if anyone found out about. So yeah, you would need guns blazing if someone followed you when you found whatever artifact. Look at Sue the tyrannosaur skeleton and all the lawsuits and everything because everyone was after it.
It's even true that Hitler had a division in WW2 to look for the Ark or the Holy Grail and if you were looking for it too, you had better be protecting. So finding a famous artifact and guns blazing isnt so far fetched.

[MercuryRapids]

The Tiwanaku (Tiahuanaco) of the Bolivia level is naff all like the real thing, which lies near Lake Titicaca on the Bolivian Alteplano.

http://www.genosplace.org/Bolivia/T7.jpg

[Mangar The Dark]

For TR8, it might be cool to have a level in the Ellora Caves at Kailasa Temple in India. Check it out:
http://www.jpkaps.com/en/travels/india/660x440/036-Kailasa_Temple.jpg

Now if that doesn't say "Tomb Raider," I don't know what does!

[Faye]

star_girl: Lara is an archaelogist, but like above said, she's adventuring more. I once read that many archaeologists dont just have to be good in history/geography to be an archeaologist (even if archaeology is another subject). people in good in drawing are also preferred because you have to DRAW the pots and stuff you find. lara's just a woman with twin guns exploring, adventuring and killing baddies on her way!

That's right, another example is: if a person is good at science and enjoys it, then there's the scientific side of archaeology, carbon dating etc.

gopher666: Anyway, there are different types of archeologists and not all of them dig in the dirt and make drawings. Although having said that I do recall Lara digging between the paws of the sphinx in TR4.

That wasn't exactly what you'd call an archaeological dig though. That was just plain old digging, lol.

MV_AgustaF4: Actually if you think about, and say you were looking for the ark of the covenant or something, if you found it it would be worth more than probably the mona lisa, making it $100s of millions of dollars. If someone else was looking for it too, then in real life you would need guns because people would shoot each over it just because of how much it would be worth. If you had the mona lisa in your house you would be so screwed if anyone found out about. So yeah, you would need guns blazing if someone followed you when you found whatever artifact. Look at Sue the tyrannosaur skeleton and all the lawsuits and everything because everyone was after it.
It's even true that Hitler had a division in WW2 to look for the Ark or the Holy Grail and if you were looking for it too, you had better be protecting. So finding a famous artifact and guns blazing isnt so far fetched.

Guns, yes, it's not that unusual for high profile archaeological digs to have hired armed security guards, especially in countries where there is more risk of being attacked and having things stolen. But that is still very very different to Tomb Raider, please don't mistake what Lara does for archaeology, because it isn't. It's adventuring. For starters, you would not get an archaeological team of just one person. And, believe it or not, although Lara and Indiana are usually just after some gold icon, in real life, archaeologists are not after one particular item. This reminds of a time when my friends and I would go down to the pub for a break; the locals would ask "have you found anything yet?" and we would laugh. You see, archaeologists aren't looking for artefacts in the same way that Lara is. Of course artefacts are very interesting finds, tools, pottery, artwork, sculptures etc. can tell us a lot about how people lived and their history. But archaeologists don't just go into big temples in search of some big shiny thing. It really isn't that glamourous in real life. It's actually better, though, than what we see in fiction. Don't ask me to explain how; it just is :). Archaeologists are interested in preserving the whole building, not just one object. I'm not saying Lara's interests don't lie in preserving the buildings and their history; they do; but what we see is not archaeology. I think you misinterpreted what I was saying.

[gopher666]

star_girl:

But archaeologists don't just go into big temples in search of some big shiny thing.

They might not now but they use to. Just look at Howard Carter and all those other Egyptian tombraiders. What you are talking about is modern archeology.
And face it, if you came across a massive temple you would definately be interested in its relics the most.

[Faye]

gopher666: They might not now but they use to. Just look at Howard Carter and all those other Egyptian tombraiders. What you are talking about is modern archeology.
And face it, if you came across a massive temple you would definately be interested in its relics the most.

Key phrase here: Tomb Raiders. The real tomb raiders are the enemy of archaeology, although Howard Carter wasn't so much a tomb raider; he still used what he found to help us learn more about ancient Egyptian civilisation, which is basic reason for archaeology. Still, archaeology is far more advanced these days. Don't forget, many archaeologists may disagree with the actions of those with tomb raider tendencies.

If I came across a massive temple I would most certainly not be interested in the relics the most. I'd be far more excited that the prospect of a temple looking so intact. Honestly, what archaeologists get up to is nothing like what Lara Croft and Indiana Jones get up to! Yes, people have done those things, I'm not saying they haven't, but they weren't archaeologists, they were tomb raiders, grave robbers. And that is most definitely NOT archaeology. Lara Croft is an archaeologist, but we just never get to see her working in that area of her life. But it is mentioned that she has done actual archaeological work as well as tomb raiding.

[mikazuki]

...although Howard Carter wasn't so much a tomb raider; he still used what he found to help us learn more about ancient Egyptian civilisation, which is basic reason for archaeology.

If I remember my history correctly, Carter was an archaeologist and Egyptologist who had no formal training. He was employed by Lord Carnarvon who paid for the excavations. Carnarvon primary concern, from my recollections, was for the money he would make upon any great finds.

As for other mythologies and legends in the various TR games. Of course Eidos will use real mythologies and legends as a basis to games. We've seen legends and myths from Egyptian, Christian, Hindu, Japanese, Chinese, Aztec, Incan, Islamic, Mesopotamian, Persian, Polynesian, Roman/Greek, Mayan and even Native American. Honestly, I can't even think of one TR game that hasn't had something derived from real life.

As for the Nephilim and the Bible. The King James Version (KJV) does not name them as Nephilim but rather simply as "giants". Genesis 6:4, "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." It was the New American Standard Bible (NASB) that gave the giants a name. "The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore {children} to them. Those were the mighty men who {were} of old, men of renown." And if I remember correctly, which I might not, Hebrew texts calls them simply, "fallen ones".

At any rate, Tomb Raider - even AOD - are wonderful troves of real mythologies, histories and legends for those who want to learn more beyond the games.

[Faye]

If I remember my history correctly, Carter was an archaeologist and Egyptologist who had no formal training. He was employed by Lord Carnarvon who paid for the excavations. Carnarvon primary concern, from my recollections, was for the money he would make upon any great finds.

In that case, that backs up my point even more; we can't use Carter's work as an example of a "tomb raiding archaeologist", I wanted to say that perhaps Carter wasn't exactly what you'd call a good, ethical archaeologist myself, but I didn't feel I was informed enough to make that point. You, on the other hand, are informed, and have thus helped to illustrate my point; what Lara does is not archaeology. I thought that point was obvious myself, but obviously the likes of Lara and Indy have given people some fantasy image of archaeology, lol.

[Chris-Craig Michaels]

In Tomb Raider 2, Lara goes inside the Temple of Xian at the end of the game. While there is no such temple, the first Emperor of China really was buried in Xi'an—in the game, Lara actually sees Terra Cota statues like those found near the emperor's tomb.

[Tomus]

Hi all,

The best example of a tomb raiding archaeologists would probably be someone like Belzoni or Schliemann.

Both had pretty cavalier attitudes towards what they were looking for and much of the American investigation into Meso-American civilisation had a whiff of the tomb raider in it as well.

[storm shadow]

I think Lara is more raiding tombs than performing archeaology. But no I don't perform archeaology. I think I will be good at it!

[gopher666]

tomb raiding archaeologists would probably be someone like Belzoni

Unfortunately Belzoni is another archeologist who wasn't classically trained. He was a weight-lifter in a travelling circus before he did work in Egypt.

I only used Carter because I couldn't think of the other names. Nevetheless it still shows that there can be a connection between archeology and tomb raiding.

However, I will retract my previous statement and call Lara a tomb-raiding historian. How does that sound to you Faye?

[MercuryRapids]

Let's not forget Vyse, who used dynamite to try and find the original entrance to the Great Pyramid. Tomb raiding at its best/worst (delete as applicable) :)

[Faye]

:)

I don't mean Lara isn't an archaeologist; she has done the sort of work that is classed as archaeology. I just mean that what we see her do in the games is not archaeology, she is an archaeologist and she is a tomb raider, she just doesn't do the two at the same time. This sounds like a bit of a contradiction, but Lara's a bit wild, as we all know. Adventure is her first love.

People can be tomb raiders and archaeologists, but the two practices contradict each other. When you do archaeological work, it is nothing like what you see in Tomb Raider. Tomb raiding goes directly against the basic principles and ethics behind archaeology.

Can we really define the examples given as archaeologists in the modern sense? I don't think we can. Perhaps we can say that what Lara does is old fashioned archaeology; a bit rough around the edges, a bit more motivated by money and the adrenaline rush rather than the want to preserve something and learn from it, and definitely frowned upon nowadays, at least by archaeologists. We're even told that most archaeologists in Lara's world disapprove of her; this is something that would definitely happen.

You see, the Lara Crofts of hundreds or even thousands of years ago are what is impeding archaeology today; many tombs that are discovered are no longer intact, and items that could have told us a lot about ancient civilisation are no longer there. Still, Lara's a little better than that. At least she keeps them intact (that's the archaeologist in her ;)), whereas it was not uncommon for tomb raiders to melt down the metal artefacts they found.

It's a bit like the metal detectors versus archaeologists thing. Metal detectors will often come around an archaeological site when the archaeologists are away, and the digging can damage the site, also they are not careful about retrieving them. And also it means the archaeologists lose artefacts, when the metal detectors take them away to sell them (often illegally).

EDIT: Before anyone corrects me :D, I'd just like to point out that when I said "a bit more motivated by money" I know that Lara isn't, I just meant that many of the tomb raiders/old fashioned archaeologists were.

[mikazuki]

Perhaps we can say that what Lara does is old fashioned archaeology; a bit rough around the edges, a bit more motivated by money and the adrenaline rush rather than the want to preserve something and learn from it, and definitely frowned upon nowadays, at least by archaeologists. We're even told that most archaeologists in Lara's world disapprove of her; this is something that would definitely happen.

Well in regards to being motivated by money.... It seems as if she hasn't taken a paying job since TR2 or TR3. Remember in at least the first two (I've completely forgotten what happened in the 3rd game) she was hired by someone to retrive something. The last two or three games she's been searching for things on her own or for a personal reason (TLR, Chronicals, AOD).

Still, Lara's a little better than that. At least she keeps them intact (that's the archaeologist in her ;)), whereas it was not uncommon for tomb raiders to melt down the metal artefacts they found.
Hehe -- Remember the joke in the England level about keeping things intact? but yes, Lara does tend to keep the artifacts she finds intact.

Come to think of it... which games revisited her mansion with the previous games items in it? Wasn't it three that had the Daggers of Xian in her hidden room? Pity we didn't see anything like that in the mansion this time. And I wonder what happened to that underground cave of hers in the backyard or the hidden fish tank under her mansion....