Not Sorcerers

[soothsayer]

According to D&D Rules, the circle of the nine aren't sorcerers, they are closer to clerics.
Sorcerers and wizard cast arcane spells, clerics cast divine spells.
Divine magic is drawn from an alien source, like a deity, a plane, or Nature.
The pillars should be considered a divine source.
Arcane magic is formed from the leftovers of divine magic.

One of the main differences is that divine spell casters can where armor without it interfering with their spells, like Kain in BO.
Since they just shape energy that appears from their source.
But Arcane spells require precise movements to direct their spells to control the magic sleeping in the vicinity.

Sorcerers imagine up their powers, wizard figure out how magic works to control it, but divine casters only need a particular mindset to use their abilities. But since the circle of the nine draws power from mindless stone, they don't have to worry about offending their source and losing their powers. although the pillars may have selected them for having the mindsets that they do, or even influenced their minds and physiology to make more suitable proxies.

As far as I can tell, the pillars are the only divine source that shares it's power with humans in Nosgoth. Which may explain why most spell casters work for the circle. Vampires seem to use Arcane spells, if any. Vampires make suitable arcane spell casters due to their longevity and charisma. Elzevir probably used arcane spells.

I personally think Kain has lost his divine spell casting abilities by destroying the pillars, so he shouldn't be able to cast magic in the next LoK. But he may be able to use spells in an era where the pillars are healthy, but I don't know how exactly the pillar/guardian link functions to know for sure.

[fneh]

LOK isn't anything to do with D&D.

And I don't believe any of the circle members have been referred to as sorcerers anyway?

Kain does not cast divine magic because he's a "dark god". Any kind of white magic would hurt kain (with the whole him being the undead an all).

[soothsayer]

LOK isn't anything to do with D&D.

All RPG games draw from D&D to some degree.

Kain does not cast divine magic because he's a "dark god". Any kind of white magic would hurt kain (with the whole him being the undead an all).

Divine spells aren't necessarily drawn from a good source.
Drawing from the inner plane of positive energy or an evil deity makes spells that heal the living and harm the undead.
Drawing from the inner plane of negative energy or a good deity makes spells that harm the living and heal the undead.

Kain would draw spells from the corrupted pillar of balance.

[Smoke_Z]

The whole thing sounds way too geeky for video gaming.

Wait, this was a while ago, when video games weren't quite so hip.

Um... still hold the possibility that you're reading too far into it, but it still sounds cool.

[rabban]

All RPG games draw from D&D to some degree.

not the "degree" your talking about soothsayer. D&D is structured differently it's very design is built upon rules for a multiplayer type of game...lok is a 1 player game where the player has no control over the storyline...

[soothsayer]

:rolleyes: The very idea of RPG based story telling, and spells and growth originated from D&D, but has evolved somewhat in the digital medium.

[fneh]

I hate to break it to you, but D&D didn't invent role playing.... Or the fantasy Genre for that matter.


And LOK is NOT an RPG. It's an action/adventure title with a fantasy genre. Obviously heavily influenced by Star Wars and Tolken.

Yes BO1 was an RPG to an extent but I'd hardly compare it to D&D.

LOK is linear for a start........


No offence but saying LOK is based on D&D in the ever so bold way you are doing is like me saying Soul Calibur is based on Batman

If you honestly want us to take your opinions any further then you'll need to provide EVIDENCE to suggest LOK is even based on D&D like you're suggesting even before we'll consider the rest of what you've said.

LOK is not D&D and thus D&D terminology cannot be used in LOK any more than star wars terminology.


strong in the force raziel is! hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! :p

(and ironically enough the star wars terminology actually works from a story telling point of view. You gonna say that's D&D too?)

[soothsayer]

Why is it people get upset when you note the origins of something.
All RPGs, that is all games where you play as a character, started from D&D, which probably grew from something else.
Early RPGs draw more directly from D&D, FF1 for instance directly used the D&D spells per day system, but the manna system became more feasible, which has become the standard.

The path from D&D to all video games was natural.
Computers are incapable of randomness and creativity.
D&D uses a numerical system to calculate what everything is capable of.
And it was a simple matter to assign numbers to actions on computer.

[fneh]

And again. You're not actaully backing any of this up with hard evidence.


and you spelled mana wrong. :p


I'm not upset about anything. I'm SKEPTICAL. And you're not doing any kind of a good job about changing that.

[rabban]

Why is it people get upset when you note the origins of something.

because nothing is original...and you cheapen the uniqueness of a good story when you childishly make sweeping generalizations like this...

All RPGs, that is all games where you play as a character, started from D&D

nah the boardgame clue did that before D&D, halloween too...so did costume balls...and...really ****** couples.

lok began as a RPG and it is no longer that type of game...and even then it was not D&D there are unmistakable ties to the genre but because of the medium the game was delivered in it is a different beast.

stop trying to knock down classifications you seem to have a innate compulsion for that. it is completely natural to define and distinguish things without it we would not be able to communicate right now.

[blincoln]

I'll buy that Dungeons and Dragons was the first true RPG, but even assuming that, it doesn't mean you can use the rules of D&D to prove or disprove anything in the games that came later - whether we're talking about LoK or even AD&D.

Now, what will happen in a hypothetical future game is totally open for speculation. I just wouldn't recommend basing your theories on another game.

[soothsayer]

and you spelled mana wrong.

Manna is the divine version of Arcane Mana.
Check for yourself on Answers.com/

because nothing is original...and you cheapen the uniqueness of a good story when you childishly make sweeping generalizations like this...

I am well aware that everything was drawn from something.
But it's good to get an understanding about something by following it's origins, and there's nothing childish about that.
RPGs have gone through a lot of changes, but they all still seem to draw from a lot of the old D&D rules.

lok began as a RPG and it is no longer that type of game...and even then it was not D&D there are unmistakable ties to the genre but because of the medium the game was delivered in it is a different beast.

But BO was the introduction of the pillars and the circle of the nine, it being the most D&Dish, there should be a link.

I just wouldn't recommend basing your theories on another game.

Now that's just insulting, I come up with interesting ties from LoK to other sources, as well as my own interpretations and all I get is sass.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Everyone is free to disagree, however it is requested that we remain constructive. From our perspective at this point, this discussion has remained just that and we trust it will continue. Should any of you elect to participate in any sort of melodrama, you're highly advised to take it through private channels (PM's and/or email). There's no sense jumping to conclusions and blowing statements out of proportion and definitely no sense taking jabs and ultimately aiming/hitting below the belt.

Thanks. :)

[rabban]

i guess we all will agree to disagree...with soothsayer :D
good luck with slaying that dragon and don't tick umah off she is the DM here.

*Rabban cowers from Umah BloodOmen*

Please don't hit me again...

[fneh]

Now that's just insulting, I come up with interesting ties from LoK to other sources, as well as my own interpretations and all I get is sass.

how exactly is it insulting?

I don't base final fantasy on monopoly do i? no.

you keep saying LOK originated from D&D but that single sentence is your entire argument. that 'most' thing SEEM to derive from D&D. You're a D&D fan and are therefore, HIGHLY biased. A star wars fan could easily say LOK is higly based on that AND back up their statements (raziel is luke and Kain is darth. Raziel has a light sabre etc etc etc. There's even a constructive thread pointing out star wars references within LOK games). I asked for any kind of evidence to at least back up your suggestions and instead you just keep repeating your original post, assuming your right even without a single scrap of evidence to back your opinion up.

I'm happy to accept any view you have IF you can at least proove it in SOME way (however vague). Seriously, HOW do the 2 things compare side by side? You made the topic. Surely you can answer a question this simple.

[Smoke_Z]

There is a project that I was working on that predates my knowing about Soul Reaver. The concept I think was from december 2001 (with one sketch from 1997 being related) and the last version of the script I did most of the work just before I randomly bought my first LOK game.

(Goes to the other room to check on a sketch and confirms that it predates discovering Raziel.)

If I release that particular sketch and actually start publishing my project, you're undoubtably going to see how much of a LOK ripoff it is. (And technically it would depend on how much I tweak the script and my original ideas now.)

Would Blood Omen have been like that if D&D had never been created? Who knows. How many iterations is it away from D&D? Probably at least a few. The point is that sometimes similar ideas do crop up, especially since they had to draw off of something. (I bet the developers might've played Haunted House for the Atari.)

[soothsayer]

You're a D&D fan and are therefore, HIGHLY biased.

No I'm not, I have never even played a non-video game RPG.
If anything I'd be way biased in favor of LoK.

But I have some role-playing friend who told me that pretty much all video games still followed the same rules that were set up long ago for D&D.

I didn't believe him, but he lent me some manual, and I did find a lot of parallels.

but specifically for LoK spell casting...

-one free hand is required for all spell casting (no spells with double ax, or the 2-handed reaver)
-Druids and Paladins are considered divine spell-casters
-Divine spell casters require a source (the pillars) but without the source they loose their powers, since their power is not internal
-only divine spells are unaffected by armor

There is nothing really concrete, but it appears to me that everyone is still following the same rules for arcane and divine spells. Also, the pillar guardians would not be as powerful as they are by letting just anyone draw power from the pillars.

I think we take for granted the that people had to think this stuff up.
We just see some one in a video game shooting energy from his hands and assume it's normal just because its so familiar.

In a more general sense, D&D invented the idea of damage calculation, and the first person based story-line. I am unaware of anything that predates D&D in these senses.

[The Hylden]

LOK isn't anything to do with D&D.

That about sums up this entire discussion...

[fneh]

That about sums up this entire discussion...

amen :thumbsup:

[rabban]

ditto... :)

[Smoke_Z]

*Spoken with a half-interested attitude; equal reference to all participants including self.*

It's one thing to say that he's full of cheese, quite another to come up with and intellegent reason why. *sigh*

Right now, I'm on the fence and... (oh, what's a polite way to describe the pain?) Help me down.

It doesn't matter. I think at this point it's going to take that Dyak character coming in here and setting things straight to get any sort of accordance. (Prove me wrong?)

[rabban]

*confused, smirks and runs with it*

why don't you ask him what kind of cheese he is filled with?

*takes stick and pushes Smoke_Z over the edge.*

[dumah's wraith]

d+d is not lok, it might have some of the same rules, but that doesn't mean it has to take up the rest.and as for star wars...
no vampires,no pillars, no time streaming,kain isn't evil+yoda is'nt a huge tentacled thing.

[fneh]

Yoda could have tentacles................... hehe

ACtually you'll find in the star wars thread (I'm too lazy to link sorry) has chris admitting that the makers are very influenced by star wars. You'r elooking at everything a little literally by the sounds of it. It's one thing to be inspired by something and another to make a complete rip off with a few of your own ideas added in an attempt to hide your copy.


Smoke, you're not gonna get an argument from either side because the OP hasn't provided one despite my numerous requests he back up his ideas. Surely his lack of being able to actually proove his generalisations will be enough for you to make up your own mind.

[soothsayer]

it might have some of the same rules,

My one and only point.
I Know D&D and LoK are not the same.
D&D is more like an ancestor.

You guys need to calm down a little, I was just sharing an observation, you don't have to treat it as hearsay.

[The Hylden]

According to D&D Rules, the circle of the nine aren't sorcerers, they are closer to clerics.

After this you debate endlessly that the D&D "rules" are why your out of the blue statement, "the circle of nine aren't sorcerers." is correct. Not that I need to state it anymore, because even on this board it must be apparent what's wrong with this way of presenting supposed "ideas only" is, but I will again anyway. You can't state things like this without saying ‘maybe, I think, it's possible,’ etc. and expect anyone, ANYONE, not to take it as you stating a non-fact and non-proven statements as absolutes...

[Smoke_Z]

I'm not seeing any good evidence from either side. Sitting on the fence is kinda nice once you get used to it.

Perhaps Soul Reaver is based off of Moby ****? Maybe we should start a new discussion involving the existence of a god from a polytheistic belief system? (Does Poseidon really exist, is Thor having trouble with his passport.)

[rabban]

please...D&D and lok are linked only in genre fantasy/rpg but not in plot or fictional world.

lord of the rings has wizards, so does D&D but the fact that the fictional worlds are separate dictates that the wizards in either plot are not of the same stock, they are bread in the imagination of the designer. the wizards of lord of the rings are easier compared to angels rather then old men who have studied a profession.

even if you want to ignore the plot and say all fantasy is relative you can not ignore the structure of the designed world because lok has specific rules and guidelines involving the timestream, the circle, the spectral realm, vampires, etc.

if you ignore the plot and the structure of the fictional world and are under the impression that there could be a spinoff lok vs D&D game...well what medium would that be?...videogame or boardgame?

because of this transition lok and D&D would have to be retooled to fit each other. D&D has made the leap to video games already but to say it is the same type of game as before would be foolish...for all videogames are limited by their inability to be as creative or spontanious as a bunch of friends playing a boardgame together...anyays i got a job interview so gotta cut it short...soothsayer...your wrong on more levels then i can adress right now.

[soothsayer]

The only specific link I'm trying to prove is is that the pillars are sources of divine magic, as opposed to arcane. And there is many fantasy based stories that make the same distinction. D&D was the first to invent any specific rules for this sort of thing, though the distinction is far older. Differentiating between what is ordained and what is occult was going on n prehistory.

[rabban]

you should stop using D&D terminology to justify stuff in lok, all you will do is confuse yourself even more.

divinity in nosgoth is a very intangible thing given that there are so many characters that are treated as though they are a gods and don't show any signs of deserving the title other then having so arcane power that few else have...so no, sorry soothsayer your still on the 9th tier of wrong no matter how you try to cover it up...see we actually listen to you. :D

[Umah Bloodomen]

If someone thinks that LOK parallel D&D, so be it. LOK could parallel Peter Pan for all we care. So far the majority of posts in this thread are doing nothing but trolling for melodrama (which we all know has no place here). It's one thing to disagree, but to continue to rub the author's nose in their observation and constantly scold them because they had the chutzpah to make a constructive thought in the first place is BS. (I'll refrain from getting into the fact my earlier warning was disregarded). http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

With that said, it's in the best interest of the community to close this until further notice. (This is not a guarantee it will be reopened).

Thanks.