1246?

[LOKFan]

In the Lower City of BO2 (near to the Blue Lady Shop) is a building with the sign "Hill House est 1246". Presumably this means BO2 occurs an undetermined number of years after 1246. I believe this is the only instance in the entire LOK series where an exact year has been given.

However, should this sign really be taken seriously as an indicator of the era of BO2?

[Raziel'sRevenge]

First of all, I've got to congratulate you on noticing something like that. You've got a good eye. Secondly, could you post a picture of the shop? I'd like to see for myself. Thirdly, I'm not sure how seriously I'd take it. It sounds like it's based on the humans timeline, which could be very different from Kain's and the vampire's. We all seem to take Kain's death/rebirth as the year 0, but that's only because it's convenient. So while the number you found may very well be the "actual" year that the game takes place, it doesn't do much for establishing exact dates of events. Still, very interesting...

[rabban]

...well then i guess that building was built approx 50 years ago so 1200...

based on the sr2 timeline that means.

the 1200's are 400 years after bo1 and the 800's is the century of bo1. if that is true then sometime in the 300's or 200's the reaver was forged so i guess 0 equals the birth of the pillars.

hmmm...

the 1300's would be the begining of kain's empire.
sometime in the 1400's is when raziel was tossed in the abyss and some time between 1600 and 2400 is when raziel was ressurected.

whoa...good find LOKFan! :thumbsup:

[LOKFan]

First of all, I've got to congratulate you on noticing something like that. You've got a good eye.

Thank you. :) I'm a real fanatic of the LOK series and I intentionally go around looking for minute details within the LOK games.

[rabban]

Doh!!!....i gotta stop typing stuff late at night!

[Kain's Heart]

I'm confused a bit here :confused:

<<<posted by rabban,
the 1200's are 400 years after bo1 and the 800's is the century of bo1. if that is true then sometime in the 300's or 200's the reaver was forged so i guess 0 equals the birth of the pillars.

hmmm...


the 1300's would be the begining of kain's empire.
sometime in the 1400's is when raziel was tossed in the abyss and some time between 1600 and 2400 is when raziel was ressurected.>>>

If kain was 400 yrs. in the 1200's, his empire began in the 1300's, & Raziel was tossed into the Abyss in the 1400's... Then how come he said in the begining of SR1 that he's served Kain for a mellinium????

Something isn't right here!!! Some years are lost somewhere! :confused:

[rabban]

the 400 years marks the events of bo2 as said in the sr2 timeline not the age of kain.

as far as the millinium statement, a thousand years is a millinium right?

1300's...1400's?

the timeline says "roughly a century later" so that means some time in the mid 1300's (based on the est building being made in 1246) then a millinium later (1400?) raz takes a dip in the abyss...and centuries later (200 to 900 years) raziel is resurected.

i think that fits

[TBS]

a millenia is indeed 1000 years...and 1300 + 1000 = 2300, not 1400 :p

[rabban]

uhh... :o
*looks down at floor*

...uhh...yeah i uhh well i counted only 100 years...uhh of course umm natural mistake...uhh anyone could have done it uhh i suck at math!!!

*runs out of topic with the speed of a cheetah.*

[Kain's Heart]

That was my point TBS, thanx...

It's ok rabban, everybody make mistakes! ;)

[rabban]

...really?

[goblin981]

yeh we all make mistakes.

nice theory but there's a few problems:

1: how do you know the building is 50 years old? just a guess?

2: no one knows when the pillars were created. so I doubt the year numbers are based on that. Clearly something significant happened 300 years before the end of the sarafan. maybe that's when the humans took the pillars for themselves.

[rabban]

yeh we all make mistakes.

that's what you think. ;)

the 50 year thing was a approximation so i rounded it to 1200. i guess everything but the 1300's/1400's thing is sound and i'm sure it can be corrected but i thought someone a tad better in math would fix it. but...ok...

the 1300's would be the begining of kain's empire...

add a millinium... 2300 to 2350 is when raz got chucked so between 2550 and 3250 is when raziel was awakened into his wraith form.

[goblin981]

so the building could be 500 years old for all you know?

[rabban]

est is short for established...est 1246 so i rounded it out to 1250 or 1200...see :o

[goblin981]

i know the building was est in 1246, but how do you know what year it is now? (as at bo2) 1246 could have been 10000 years ago for all we know.

[Gabriel Edson]

i know the building was est in 1246, but how do you know what year it is now? (as at bo2) 1246 could have been 10000 years ago for all we know.
well, you guys are kind of assuming that the building itself was built in 1246, but the sign could be referring to the business (which may have been handed down from generation to generation), so it could really be any number of years old.

you hear ads on the radio, where they brag about how long ago the business was established, and ive never heard them brag unless it was at least 50 years old.

suddenly i feel very silly for some reason. <shrugs>

[rabban]

shesh don't get so pushy...this is a C.Y.A anyways so :D

ok my hypothesis is this... year one is the creation of the pillars in human terms of nosgoth.

it's an assumption based on the timeline in sr2.

the pillars were created before nosgoth's recorded history

yet, the birth of the pillars is the one true event that would mark the begining of an era for humanity, it is then that humans would begin to gain power and self worth as the future guardians of the pillars...it would be in this time when the vampires would begin to lose their seat as rulers of nosgoth. ergo year one is the creation of the pillars and/or the time human's would usurp the guardianship of the pillars.

this is why i think year one is the creation of the pillars and not the birth of kain or when the pillars became corrupted or when kain damned the world.

the 1200's also sound about right to me as the era when meridian itself was established because the city of meridian was not on any map in bo1 though it is considered the capitol of nosgoth.

because the events in bo2 are in the 400 year mark on the timeline. meridian itself had to be built in between kain's refusal and his defeat by the sarafan lord. remember kain was asleep for 200 years in bo2 so that first 200 years would be inbetween kain's refusal to sacrifice himself and when he was defeated by the sarafan lord....and as i said earlier...meridian is not on any bo1 map.

based on my theory this also means meridian would have been built some time during kain's crusade to take over nosgoth. so again 1200 sounds like the right approximation...to me.

[soothsayer]

I dissagree.
Janos said he was awaiting Raziel for millennia, so he has to have been waiting since at least 2500 years before Kain was born, and he probably started waiting a few decades after the pillars were built, so that can't be year zero. and that building was pretty new and part of the glyph enhanced meridian, so it it wasn't more than 100 years old. So what ever occured to be called year zero happened a few centuries before Raz and Vor tor apart the old sarafan.

[Gabriel Edson]

what does C.Y.A. mean? :o

[soothsayer]

the 1200's also sound about right to me as the era when meridian itself was established because the city of meridian was not on any map in bo1 though it is considered the capitol of nosgoth.

because the events in bo2 are in the 400 year mark on the timeline. meridian itself had to be built in between kain's refusal and his defeat by the sarafan lord. remember kain was asleep for 200 years in bo2 so that first 200 years would be inbetween kain's refusal to sacrifice himself and when he was defeated by the sarafan lord....and as i said earlier...meridian is not on any bo1 map.

Just because it wasn't on the BO map doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The map simply didn't extend south enough, and since there was no need to visit it didn't need to be on the map.
The sarafan fortress is just south of the southern lake, but it isn't on the map.

Also, since Kain did leave coorhagen due to the plague, and he was heading south, Meridian would be an adequate new residence for a young noble.

Meridian is a quite old city, And I doubt HL was there when what is now the slums was built.

[rabban]

Just because it wasn't on the BO map doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

it's only a theory...it can be modified... but i do think we can make approximations based on the information already given to us. bo1 never had a capitol of nosgoth it was a continent with several nations within it not a country or nation as this capitol eludes to...so it still sounds like a newly established place...probably by the hylden themselves...look at the introduction in bo2.

Kain:
This city is a labyrinth.

and

Umah:
Then let me show you the future. You have been asleep for two hundred years. In that time, this is what has become of Nosgoth.

meridian is the first time in lok that we actually see a huge urban envionment...not rural or aguarian.

The map simply didn't extend south enough, and since there was no need to visit it didn't need to be on the map.
The sarafan fortress is just south of the southern lake, but it isn't on the map.

The sarafan stronghold... a long abandoned building in the "original timeline" of bo1. many ancient buildings were ignored and allowed to rot in europe before people begun to see the importants of history.


Also, since Kain did leave coorhagen due to the plague, and he was heading south, Meridian would be an adequate new residence for a young noble.

as i recall kain was "ambitious but directionless" i dont think he was running away from the plague as much as he was trying to make a name for himself.

Meridian is a quite old city.

well after 400 years it better be.



what does C.Y.A. mean? :o

cover. your. you-know-what

Janos said he was awaiting Raziel for millennia, so he has to have been waiting since at least 2500 years before Kain was born, and he probably started waiting a few decades after the pillars were built, so that can't be year zero.

your right about that, perhaps it is year zero to the humans?...i mean they did not know the vampires were the creators of the pillars right?...so year zero must have been when moe and mort revolted and usurped the pillars.

[soothsayer]

The sarafan stronghold... a long abandoned building in the "original timeline" of bo1. many ancient buildings were ignored and allowed to rot in europe before people begun to see the importants of history.

it didn't seem to be that long abandoned, it looked fine when ariel was killed in it only 30 years before Kain became a vampire.

as i recall kain was "ambitious but directionless" i dont think he was running away from the plague as much as he was trying to make a name for himself.

where better than meridian? the posh capital of nosgoth.

HL/janos took some time working on building the hylden gate before HL visited meridian, and this time subtracted from 200 years is no time to build the walled fortress we seen in the opening cg in BO2. though HL did change it alot while Kain was sleeping.

whatever the humans use as year zero happened at most 500 years before Vor's assault, and the human guardian rebellion likely happened before Janos started to wait alone for raziel for at least 2000 years.

[rabban]

where better than meridian? the posh capital of nosgoth.

yep...so posh and such a great capitol in all of nosgoth that it did not make it on any map untill the era of bo2... :rolleyes:

as i said before...the hylden tried to turn nosgoth the continent into a nation and meridian was the area and city of choice.

it didn't seem to be that long abandoned, it looked fine when ariel was killed in it only 30 years before Kain became a vampire.

in the "original timeline" in bo1 there was no citizen army ergo there was no interest in the a sarafan stronghold.

where better than meridian? the posh capital of nosgoth.

"ambitious but directionless"

directionless he was on a personal trek a walkabout of sorts...searching for his destiny...i'm sure if meridian existed he would eventually have went there but he did not.

HL/janos took some time working on building the hylden gate before HL visited meridian, and this time subtracted from 200 years is no time to build the walled fortress we seen in the opening cg in BO2. though HL did change it alot while Kain was sleeping.

do you think such a gate takes so long to build? it is purely a magical umbilical cord placed in an ancient hylden city.

"It has been confirmed by Crystal Dynamics that the Sarafan Lord utilized Janos' controlled body to open the gate, bringing his own, Hylden body into Nosgoth."

whatever the humans use as year zero happened at most 500 years before Vor's assault...


:rolleyes: 500 years is long enough for the human circle of 9 to rewrite history...and destroy most vampiric history books as well...but the timeline itself says that human history begins 500 years before the events of bo1. by that time vorador already killed most of the circle of 9.

...and the human guardian rebellion likely happened before Janos started to wait alone for raziel for at least 2000 years.

"history is written by the winners" and in this case it is the human's who won and completely erased vampires and hylden from history. so however long janos waited in his aerie does not matter to the human history books...besides the timeline says "before recorded history" on the timeline this just so happens to end when the reaver was forged...then the vampire population increases.

[soothsayer]

It doesn't matter if it wasn't in the BO in game map, do you think if Kain walked south of the pillars he would just fall into space? those areas weren't important because none of Kain's target's took up residence there. And even if Moe's army didn't occupy the sarafan fortress it doesn't mean it was left unused, thirty years prior to BO the guardians used it as their central meeting place, and came and went as they pleased. When ariel was murdered there it didn't look like it was dilapidated.

In BO, Kain's dialog implied he left when the plague hit, but left before things got bad. So I don't think Kain was gone long before he was killed, and because he was headed due south, Meridian would be the logical place to go and make a name for himself, as we seen little in the way of nobility in the area between Coorhagen and Meridian. Though Meridian may not have been Nosgoth's national capital at this time.

Janos:
It was in this way that the Sarafan Lord was able to enter the world, by building a magical gate. This is the Hylden Gate. Close this gate Kain, and all the Hylden within Nosgoth will perish.

since I doubt the hylden simply had a machine that could give draw hylden from hell, cause because as soon as they figured out the ancient's intentions it was too lat to come up with a counter measure. I'm not sure how long it took, But using scraps of hylden technology, combined with Janos' magic HL was able to create the hylden gate, 200 years after HL started his plans he was able to muster an army sufficient to combat one of Vorador's making.

the guardian rebellion happened about the same time as the reaver's forging, so that isn't what the humans are using as year zero.

[rabban]

do you think if Kain walked south of the pillars he would just fall into space?

no, i think kain would have been blocked by the trees and wilderness of a untamed portion of nosgoth...clearly that is what happened from the player's perspective in bo1 and from the perspective of the character meridian did not exist...not on a map, no road sign...no mentioning of it...the capitol of nosgoth was not founded in that era.

thirty years prior to BO the guardians used it as their central meeting place, and came and went as they pleased. When ariel was murdered there it didn't look like it was dilapidated.

your forgeting the fact that the sarafan stronghold was introduced in a altered timeline. it did exist prior to kain's battle with william but it was reused by the citizen army as a base of operations. the stronghold was obviously not maintained in that era either this is clear by the various frescos of the sarafan that were not tended to...the growth of mold on the stones.

the era in sr2 that shows the most dilapidation is of course after kain's sacrifice and the start of the worlds damnation.

In BO, Kain's dialog implied he left when the plague hit.

when?

since I doubt the hylden simply had a machine that could give draw hylden from hell,

Janos:
"They were, Kain, but several centuries ago, one of the Hylden was able to return to our world. He then used his magic to draw other Hylden through, but had not yet the power to begin a full invasion. He required an army here, and humans to drain of energy.He learned of a legendary order whose purpose was to purge the world of vampires long ago. He revived this order, and the Sarafan were born again."

no need to doubt...no need for scraps of hylden technology either.


the guardian rebellion happened about the same time as the reaver's forging, so that isn't what the humans are using as year zero.

how so? the forging of the reaver may have been part of a response to the human rebellion.

[soothsayer]

The sarafan fortress always exsisted, In BO in the opening cg that is where Mortainius killed Ariel, and where Nupraptor found her body, so the place was obviously in use at the time.

And of course there were no road signs or was to get to any of the places that were added in latter games cause the writers didn't add them yet, always look to the most recent game for the correct version of Nosgoth.

And the rebellion, the reaver forging happened about the same time, which was at least 1500 years before what the humans call year zero.

[rabban]

The sarafan fortress always exsisted

:rolleyes: your speaking the obvious now...or your not reading carefully

"it did exist prior to kain's battle with william"

what i'm saying is in bo1, before kain altered history there was no citizen army to be interested in using the stronghold.....ergo it was not on the bo1 map.


In BO in the opening cg that is where Mortainius killed Ariel

prove it.

And of course there were no road signs or was to get to any of the places that were added in latter games cause the writers didn't add them yet,

play bo1...there are road signs all over it...not one mentions meridian.

which was at least 1500 years before what the humans call year zero.

at least? hmm...try 2000 years at least by jano's account of how long he waited for raziel...but the reaver forging is too close to the time of nosgoth's early history...year zero must be the establishment of the human circle of 9...after the rebels became aristocratic wizards and ruled nosgoth.

[soothsayer]

play bo1...there are road signs all over it...not one mentions meridian.

The Maker's of BO didn't expand Nosgoth to go that far south.
Meridian is a recent addition, but so are the hylden, and they are a lot older than Meridian. And in BO it's not like there were any roads to Provance, despite it's close proximity to Ziergsthurl.

In SR2, Nupraptor's corrupting blast clearly came from the sarafan fortress.
I don't think wether or not Moe's army's occupation of the fort would change this.

And the sarafan fortress is an engineering marvel, I doubt it would go unused in any era after it's construction.

This is an approximate timeline of Nosgoth's prehistory.
-hylden/ancient war begins
-1000 years later
-hylden bound and ancients cursed
-original death and time guardians die
-30 ought years later
-Moe and Mort kill off the circle
-soul reaver forged
-at least 1500 years later
-human year zero
-at most 500 years later
-Raziel visits Janos

[rabban]

*sigh*

The Maker's of BO didn't expand Nosgoth to go that far south.

i know...and that has everything to do with why meridian is a new city and not as old as you believe it to be.people wanted to expand and times change so meridian was built by the human's in nosgoth and was added to the story by the game designers. it's as simple as that.

Meridian is a recent addition, but so are the hylden, and they are a lot older than Meridian.

if you noticed any additional buildings in nosgoth that are added are either ancient, hidden or vampiric/hylden in nature.

yes the hylden are older but the games clearly show them in ancient fresco's/murals in areas newly discovered by raziel. preparing you for them...there are no such clues or statements for meridian kain wakes up and umah needs to guide him through it.

And in BO it's not like there were any roads to Provance, despite it's close proximity to Ziergsthurl.

the dark chronicle calls it a coastal settlement as though it was only the beginings of a future town and provance is between ziergsthurl and meridian,
this is further proof that the human's were still expanding in that area.

And the sarafan fortress is an engineering marvel, I doubt it would go unused in any era after it's construction.

it wasn't, the citizen army used it...

but for the sake of argument, remember it was basically a big cathedral and the warrior priest's were all defeated and eventually turned into sarafan wraiths...a entire religion basically fell apart.

if you were a human in a world of vampires, demons and wraiths would you want to disturb a place where wraiths once lived?..especially a place as huge as the sarafan stronghold?...this is all conjecture so i will simply say that if it was used it was probably not used by humans.

[soothsayer]

I your idea that no one used it because the people that lived there once died doesn't make any sense. few knew about the wraith thing. And if it was so scary there then Moe's army certainly wouldn't live there. If any thing the sarafan wraith thing would do is boost the real estate value, since any ghost of sarafan were vacated and moved to the bastion.

BO is the worst example to make points based on appearance, it's a sprite game for petes sakes, You have not a leg to stand on as far as the BO map or roads in BO are concerned, the game is LoK at it's most primitive, and until you make a valid sensible point I will ignore your posts from now on.

[rabban]

whatever soothsayer
if your last point is the belief that bo1 is a primitive 2d game (and obviously it wasn't)
then you can not find a a good fault in that area of logic.

the sarafan stronghold was not featured in the unaltered timeline of bo1 because it was simply not important to the continued story...i'm pretty sure it was deserted in the original timeline since it was eventually deserted yet again 100 years later.

the sarafan were destroyed and their cathedral was left to rot with their dead cause. it's that simple.

And if it was so scary there then Moe's army certainly wouldn't live there.

we are talking about one of the circle of 9 you know...

anyways i know i had fun searching for the truths about a fictional land :)

[soothsayer]

History only alters itself only in the slightest way it can after each change.
As such Ariel was in the sarafan fortress when she was killed by Mortainius, then found by Nupraptor.
Until the whole maddness thing made them go their separite ways, it would make sense that the circle took residence in the same place as the old circle did, Moebius was there about the same time as the new gaurdians were getting thier items, when Kain came to interigate him.

Until you can state proff, it remains that the fotress stayed in use, that was the case for the warriors who lived there 70 years into Kain's hell.

And the map isn't proff, acording to your logic the ocean didn't exsist in Nosgoth because it was off the edge of the map.

[rabban]

And the map isn't proff, acording to your logic the ocean didn't exsist in Nosgoth because it was off the edge of the map.

dude...i assume your smart enough to understand that a building is something man made and a ocean is not. so why can't you understand that the human's in nosgoth had not settled in the their future capitol yet? the area was not traveled yet.

History only alters itself only in the slightest way it can after each change.

true but the previous unaltered timeline had no faction in bo1's era that hunted down all the vampires in nosgoth. time could not resist that alteration. and the sarafan stronghold was deserted eventually. so the timestream obviously wanted the building to become abandon.

Until the whole maddness thing made them go their separite ways.

I agree...the madness made the nine go their seperate ways but by that time the sarafan crusade ended and the stronghold was made derilict...untill kain altered the timeline and kick started the second purge.

And the map isn't proff,

basically your saying your going to ignore anything that proves that the human's of nosgoth are capable of expanding their territory as well as ignoring old religious groups...we did it to rome and greece...look at king louis XIV's palace it was left to rot after the french revolt.

70 years into Kain's hell.

where did the 70 years come from?...dude get some sleep i know i need some.

[Gabriel Edson]

<grabs a handful of popcorn and resumes watching the tennis match>

[rabban]

debating videogames...a spectator's sport.

[Gabriel Edson]

debating videogames...a spectator's sport.
sometimes. :D

[soothsayer]

where did the 70 years come from?...dude get some sleep i know i need some.

In SR2, Raziel traveled to 70 years after he damned the pillars, 100 years from when he just was. And It wasn't that late where I am when I wrote this.

I know HL made Meridian the national capital, but before that it would have been the regional capital for a much older time than that. Nosgoth is an old world, when humans spread across it they were still primitive, meridian was likely at some point a bunch of tents occupied by primitives.

As for the sarafan fortress, that is where the circle hung out, whether Moe's men were there or not, they are sorcerers for petes sakes, and the fortress is their heritage. the map was just the in game map, it only had locations the writers wanted it to, apparently the Nemesis had his empire in the mountains, but those structures were exclude as well.

[rabban]

ah ok...but in those 70 years the entire stronghold suffered a great deal...demons ran amoke and that stronghold was made derilict...as the timestream wanted it to...altered or unaltered.



I know HL made Meridian the national capital, but before that it would have been the regional capital

yeah...like i said, such a capitol would have been on the map...the map is ...proof that the sarafan stronghold not fortress was abandon in the unaltered timeline otherwise there would still have been human sarafan around to fight in bo1's era...instead you get wraiths from the guardian of conflict malek and a seperate enviornment all together, malek's bastion...so it goes without saying that the sarafan stronghold was left to rot.

[soothsayer]

The map was only an in game thing, the writters hadn't thought that far ahead to extend Nosgoth any futher than they needed for BO.

It looks like we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject.

[rabban]

The map was only an in game thing, the writters hadn't thought that far ahead to extend Nosgoth any futher than they needed for BO.

yep and that legitimizes meridian as a new city...

t looks like we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject.

where have i heard that before?

[soothsayer]

Also, I think you are looking at Nosogth's development from an american stand point, when Nosgoth is best compared to Europe.

American cities were founded by colonists, who could in a few years, gather their resource and technology to build a city, and did this in an expanding pattern throughout the new world. So even advanced cities were young.

In Europe, primitive nomadic peoples spread across the land, overtime some cultures settled and made agricultural societies, they developed technology as they went along, and more advanced housing was built on the ruins of the old. So cities were founded long ago, though they slowly evolved.

And it wasn't that important to be on a map, If morti wanted Kain to know were all the cities are he would of had to give him a globe, and that would be silly.

[rabban]

as far as nosgoth is concerned i don't think i see it as entirely american or european in growth because all over the land there are these abandoned buildings that no one pays attention to and this reminds me of the times before the renaissance when the roman and greek buildings were left to rot...or as i mentioned earlier the king louis XIV's palace...

the reason why meridian differs from the sarafan stronghold is because none of the various bo1 maps extend that far south and there is no way to go that far down without being blocked by a barrier of trees.

it's untamed in that region,this would seem like a gameplay device alone if it weren't for the time that passes in nosgoth between bo1 and bo2, and that meridian is the capitol of nosgoth and so labyrinthian in design, and the fact that it is so close to the sea...a body of water that must be past by the hylden from their ancient city and gate to get to nosgoth and of course because the map extends further down in bo2...wow...runon sentence from hell.

[soothsayer]

On examination of the BO map, it would be vary difficult to get to Meridian from Zergisturl by roads, the best way to go is by boat. though such water ways are only seen in newer maps, BO's in game map ended the waterways on the boarder of the map. And if you say that the sarfan fortress was ignored because it was abandoned, than after Kain altered history his map should have changed to reflect this.

And I think that the city is a labyrinth helps prove my point, If the city was new, and entirely than there wouldn't be such conflict in design and the city wouldn't be a labyrinth.

[rabban]

And if you say that the sarfan fortress was ignored because it was abandoned, than after Kain altered history his map should have changed to reflect this.

well sure but kain could not go anywhere in the altered timeline but where he was allowed to at that moment and his path of events however altered still did not have him deal with the citizen army untill he returned to his own time...no new memories... which means that the stronghold was still unimportant to the game and/or the events other then backstory for vorador and malek...i still say it was abandoned because it was always mean't to be.

And I think that the city is a labyrinth helps prove my point, If the city was new, and entirely than there wouldn't be such conflict in design and the city wouldn't be a labyrinth.

we are talking about approx 400 years...san francisco wen't through a simular change in it's grid too. and that span of change was well under 400 years

[soothsayer]

Of coarse Kain had new memories, Though have two complete sets of memories can be disorienting

"i still say it was abandoned because it was always mean't to be."

there is no reason it should be abandoned, Until you prove otherwise the circle inhabited the fortress at least until Kain's birth. And there is no reason why it wouldn't be inhabited latter on, there were people living in it in 70 years into Kain's hell, though the demons tore it up a bit.

The map is nothing to go on mate, they changed the whole bloody thing in each LoK map, so nothing is compltley relabel, and the fact that the map has elzevir's residence on it, even though all the kings horse, and all the kings men didn't know where he lived proved that the map is not a plot device.

And Nosgoth is old, the whole thing should be settled by then, Meridian exsisted in all the known timelines, though not as an important place.

[rabban]

there were people living in it in 70 years into Kain's hell, though the demons tore it up a bit.

perhaps, but those men were demon hunters not sarafan.

And Nosgoth is old, the whole thing should be settled by then, Meridian exsisted in all the known timelines, though not as an important place.

no doubt nosgoth is very old but the timeline does not account for the hylden/vampire war...it says before recorded history which obviously refers to human history not vampires...regardless of the details concerning the stronghold or meridian...year zero is obviously when the human's had complete control over the pillars.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Kindly refrain from discussing the melodrama (and members associated with said melodrama) of other online LOK communities. We share many members with those communities and won't tolerate posts that invite retaliation.

All references to NR have been removed. If you can't discuss the community in a generalized manner, don't bring it up at all.

Thanks. :)

[soothsayer]

It doesn't matter who they were, those were dark times and the fort made an excellent refuge and that means that it wasn't abandoned.

My god, you base you whole argument on the BO ingame map, and a sighn on a random building in BO2. You must admit the possibility that that number is just random decoration.

[soothsayer]

Hey, I figured it out, what year zero is, less than 500 years before Vorador's assult. That sounds like about the time turel was brought back to the past, so it might be the date the church of Nosgoth was founded since the hylden run it.

[rabban]

Hey, I figured it out, what year zero is, less than 500 years before Vorador's assult.

i don't know it sounds a bit random to me. go on.

My god, you base you whole argument on the BO ingame map, and a sighn on a random building in BO2.

yes i am...but it's fun isn't it?

it doesn't matter who they were, those were dark times and the fort made an excellent refuge and that means that it wasn't abandoned.

Raziel V.O.:
Even as I emerged from that infernal Time Streaming chamber, I suspected treachery.
The Stronghold was vacant, derelict and abandoned...

[soothsayer]

It didn't look abandoned to me, a little worse for wear, but it was filled with people and demons, I would guess and say that there were survivors baracaded in the areas beyond Raz's reach, and why would Moe's statue be built in a place that was abandoned?

And it seems likely that the building was at most 100 years old, so year zero would be with in 500 years befor Vor's assault, which seems about the time Turel was brought to avernus by the hylden (debatable how and why). Besides Year zero for us is too a clegical year, so that might be the time the hylden started their faith.

[rabban]

It didn't look abandoned to me, a little worse for wear

there were holes in the ceilings!

but it was filled with people and demons, I would guess and say that there were survivors baracaded in the areas beyond Raz's reach, and why would Moe's statue be built in a place that was abandoned?


ok...now your ignoring the game itself...obviously the statue was built in an time after moe killed vorador but before the stronghold was left to rot...again the demon hunters were hunters they were probably after the demons not protecting the stronghold.

Besides Year zero for us is too a clegical year, so that might be the time the hylden started their faith.

sure but the circle of 9 are wizards as well as aristocrates they would need a calender too. the 9 also started the sarafan and predate avernus cathedral. remember azimuth was one of the new guardians.

[soothsayer]

...again the demon hunters were hunters they were probably after the demons not protecting the stronghold.

Now who in their right mind would hunt demons, they're hard to kill, and they implode when you do kill them so there is not like you can eat them or wear them. the only reason why anyone would kill a demon is in defense, and the fortress would make an excellent hide out.

If you want me to believe you that the circle in the original timeline abandoned the fortress, than explain where Ariel was murdered and why the map didn't add the fortress after the change.

Avernus predates the sarafan, it was probably built by the ancients, what with the earth portal and all. Mortainius or the older planer probably started the hylden faith, though Azimuth probably replaced Morti when he lost his faith when he was forced to corupt the circle. Morti or the older planer probably astablished the human year zero when the hylden were found.

[rabban]

Now who in their right mind would hunt demons.

the title demon hunters was not some label i made up...look at your sr2 manual yourself...

the only reason why anyone would kill a demon is in defense, and the fortress would make an excellent hide out.


yea...money is a good reason too but that's beside the point...the place was abandoned...and the demon hunters were squatters at best just trying to get out of the rain...

If you want me to believe you that the circle in the original timeline abandoned the fortress, than explain where Ariel was murdered and why the map didn't add the fortress after the change.

that's easy the place was abandoned soon after ariel was murdered perhaps by the very circle in their madness drove out the remaining sarafan. if not that then time simply would not allow you to venture there given the fact that so many future versions of raziel and kain would go there so frequently.

Avernus predates the sarafan, it was probably built by the ancients,

avernus does not predate the sarafan...what was under the cathedral in avernus probably does.

Morti or the older planer probably astablished the human year zero when the hylden were found.

that's a big maybe...