A couple of theories:

[Vampmaster]

We don't know what the jailers in there were yet. Due to the statue of Moebius I think they could have been a new type of servant to the EG. Perhaps he recruited them as EG worshippers. They were torturing vampires (Magnus) and hylden (Builder) alike and they said they were there to punish those who had broken the laws of gods and man so maybe they ment Squiddy. Maybe they were punishing the Builder for not completing the device and Magnus for serving Kain. Or perhaps they were simply working for the HL.

Hmm. This seemed more significant when I first thought of it. I was wondering if it added anything to anyones theories or anything. I don't think I'd want to see it revisited in the next game but it would be interesting to see if it's jailers had any significance.

The other thought I had was that maybe the abyss is the wheel of fate. I know Kain chose it as a punishment for traitors and weeklings but there could have been an older purpose.

The SR1 manual says that you need to steel a soul from the abyss to create a vampire and if you look up at the beginning of SR1, the centre of the vortex seems to go right through the EG. AS if everything in it is being fed to that point. If the leiutenants souls had been partly spun along the wheel of fate then that would explain why they had no memories of their past lives. At the end of Defiance the EG said he exists in places Kain can't go, could he have something as simple as underwater?

This one seemed more significant when I first thought of it was well, but it's something that hasn't been considered much so maybe someone else here might get an idea from this.

[Smoke_Z]

I agree with you on the point that souls as old as the lieutenants forgot who they were because of the "purifying cycle" of the wheel of fate.

As for the Eternal Prison and the jailers, I was thinking that it was a hylden construct with keepers that had hylden ancestry. The telekinetic switches certainly seemed to be designed for hylden convinience. If the builder was able to escape the binding, then why not other hylden that might have once resided there? I would think that the jailers might have gone a different type of insane from the prisoners, but insane nontheless. I would think that being a time wizard was not so unique that they were only among the ancient vampires before Moebutt.

As for "Places that [Kain] cannot find," I was thinking more along the lines of deep subterranian caverns that Kain couldn't get to even if he wasn't a luddite. (A person who doesn't like technology.)

[kakarot]

Originally posted by Vampmaster
We don't know what the jailers in there were yet. Due to the statue of Moebius I think they could have been a new type of servant to the EG. Perhaps he recruited them as EG worshippers. They were torturing vampires (Magnus) and hylden (Builder) alike and they said they were there to punish those who had broken the laws of gods and man so maybe they ment Squiddy.
if you mean these guys:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/David_iLL/bloodomen3.jpg

then, i dont think they worshipped or served anyone but themselves. they clearly where running their own experiments with the prisoners who were there for very specific reasons.


Prison Guardian:

"We do not permit guests to disturb our routine. We are involved in important work here and nothing, nothing, must be allowed to interfere. This is a place where those who have transgressed the laws of the gods and man, and so created a dangerous imbalance within themselves, contemplate the wrong that they have done, through peaceful, uninterrupted meditation, until they have regained the balance of their true, perfect inner nature.
This process must not be interrupted for any reason, until a spiritual transformation has been achieved, however long that may take. Thus no guests, no visitors, are allowed. And intruders, we know how to deal with."

i believe the above was the works of their own sick minds. if you think about it the prisoner's souls remain trapped eternally in this eternal prison.

why would the squid-eous pork-imus deprive his eternal belly of any souls at all? it just doesn't make any sense from that perspective.



Maybe they were punishing the Builder for not completing the device and Magnus for serving Kain. Or perhaps they were simply working for the HL.
One thing is for sure, the builder was being punished for his role in the production of the mass. who, was punishing him is up in the air for dispute.

The Hylden?

perhaps, he had done his part already by doing most of the dirty work, all they need now is a way to channel the 'Device' or the 'Mass's' mind through the necessary conduit. This pretty much rendered the builder useless.

The Vampires?

this seems more logical to me as the builder was imprisoned before he could complete his work and imprisoned while 'the rest of his people' where banished to disney world.

;)

..and i quote:


"The Device was to channel the mental energy of this creature, and direct it onto Nosgoth. It would attune the creature's mind to kill all living creatures except for my race. Before it could be completed, however, I was imprisoned here, and the rest of my race was banished to another, far more terrible realm." - The Builder

he was imprisoned there before he could finish his work. i think either:

a) the vampire's found him and put him there which sounds logical doesnt it?

or

[insert sarrrrrssss]

b) he took himself there..

[/sarcassma phantasmagorea]

i would like to think the HL himself does not know he's there, i mean, dood's the builder!! then again once you've served your purpose you're subject to elimination if your services are no longer required.

* cough - Moebius - cough *

[Vampmaster]

But would the vampires really be up for that amount of torture on the humans? They seemed like they at least thought (and tried to be) they were good guys but were misled bu the EG. The statue of Moebius (the ancients wouldn't have put it there) was what led me to beleive he might have set the whole thing up. Plus what was Magnus doing there? The vampires presumably wouldn't imprison one of their own.

If the prison had been around since before the hylden and vampires were around untill long afterwards, then Grim Reaper Jailers can't have been either race. They don't have wings like the ancients and the hylden wouldn't have imprison one of their own and punish him just for doing his job. They must have been either human with abilities to keep their subjects prisonor or something new.

[kakarot]

Originally posted by Vampmaster
But would the vampires really be up for that amount of torture on the humans? They seemed like they at least thought (and tried to be) they were good guys but were misled bu the EG.
i never made any reference to the vampires putting human's there nor did i imply it was there facility, i merely suggested they may have placed him there before they banned the rest of his species to la la land.


The statue of Moebius (the ancients wouldn't have put it there) was what led me to beleive he might have set the whole thing up.
the whole thing? do you mean the prison itself? I think he's more than capable of developing such a place with his power but it could've also been inherited as well.


Plus what was Magnus doing there? The vampires presumably wouldn't imprison one of their own.

correct. they didnt.. HL imprisoned him there. it's all in the game's dialogue.

Kain:
"You left my camp in the night to join with my enemy, like all the others."

Magnus:
"Sire, no. I wanted only to serve you. I thought, in my pride, I would strike a blow that would end the war. I went to kill the Sarafan Lord, alone. I was your champion. "

Kain:
"You never returned."

Magnus:
"I failed you. I tried to kill him. Even now, I cannot remember how he defeated me. I was struck down, helpless at his feet, and then through his foul magic, he took my mind and transported me here to this... hellhole. "


If the prison had been around since before the hylden and vampires were around untill long afterwards, then Grim Reaper Jailers can't have been either race. They don't have wings like the ancients and the hylden wouldn't have imprison one of their own and punish him just for doing his job. They must have been either human with abilities to keep their subjects prisonor or something new.
I think they're just the chosen warden's who have their own sick twisted agenda. Their interests remain within the eternal prison so i think they are eternal as well. They are neither Hylden nor Vampire nor Demon. They're simply the means of enforcing punishment on those sent there for their crimes and pretty much have their way with whom they choose. Perhaps, the guardians are the architects of the prison itself? who knows...

__________


Originally spoken by The Beast (Janos)in BO2:
He lives. Listen to me. There is a place in Nosgoth, far to the north, where time means nothing. Where hours and years are frozen for eternity. The Eternal Prison. The wretches imprisoned there, paying for their crimes for eternity. The Builder is there.

Tell him you wish to destroy the Device. Believe me, he will aid you.
This quote makes me question whether the Hylden put him here or the Vampires.

"Believe me, he will aid you." - Janos 'The Beast' Audron

hmm??

[kakarot]

this is a picture of the front door (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/David_iLL/bo2_screen008.jpg) to the eternal prison.

is that a Hylden Lord emblem on the front of that door? or am i seeing things?

perhaps, whoever was reigning the Land of Nosgoth also had dominion over the Eternal Prison or atleast controlled who went in and out of it.


Those statues there resemble the guardians found inside with their armor and choice of weaponry dont ya think?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/David_iLL/guardian.jpg

[Dogfight]

I've been gone for a long time, occupied with other matters, but this thread compelled me to return.

It looks to me like Moebius and some other human (The statue in the second picture.) who was not a Guardian created the Eternal Prison for the Ancients in order to punish their enemies before the human rebellion against the Ancients. After the rebellion against the Vampires, Moebius installed this unknown human as the warden of the prison and his servants, along with implementing harsher punishment at the prison for those future prisoners who would oppose the new human leadership of the Circle. At some point during this time utilizing some glyph technology left behind by the Hylden, which was then modified by Moebius, the Eternal Prison was retrofitted with time altering devices.

[Vampmaster]

Anyways, if it was Moebius who began the operation there then that implies it was in the service of the EG that it's prisoners were being punished and that there's yet another type of servant of the elder. If it was created and the punushment system was set up by the ancient vampires, then it shows a really twisted side to them. And if it was set up by the hylden and if they placed the Builder there then it raises some interesting questions as to why.
I think it could do with some light sheding on the subject but I don't want to revisit it in the next game. The grim reaper guys would give a bit of variation to the enemies, though. It would be interesting to see where the more intelligent demons and these guy come in to the story.

[The Elder God]

I think that Moebius was the one to build the Eternal Prison (the statute), but the guardians in it were servants of the Hylden (perhaps they brought Moebius' statue down). I can't back that up by anything except for their visual appearence (they glow green, which is the colour of the Hylden's eyes). And didn't the Builder want to destroy the Device?

[Reaver666]

I think that the Jailors in BO2 were Humans that were altered by either the Hylden or Vampires. In some magical way so they are able to fly and teleport? That is just my thought though

[DJpick]

I think it's strange that any magic remotely related to the Hylden was green (SR2 the demon barriers were green, or had green elements), in BO2 the Glyph energy was green, and in Defiance they had green eyes and green souls, as well as green barriers.

So, it just seemed weird that with all that green, the Wardens had green auras.

[WraithStar]

It's my theory that Moebius captured the Eternal Prison for the Elder God. The symbol on the front door looks like a Sarafan symbol to me and the Sarafan were originally Moebius' mob, not the Hylden Lord's. Both did use that symbol, though, so I don't think it proves anything. I think that the "experiments" the wardens referred to were attempts to return souls to the wheel. Magnus and the Builder at least are out of EG's reach. It's conceivable that the humans committed such horrible crimes or were simply mentally imbalanced somehow and EG is reluctant to risk contamination by devouring them. Maybe they just taste bad:p . I've got a theory to explain the pretty green colors--the Hylden seem to be the most technologically inclined of the races. I think that the Hylden originally built the Eternal Prison way back before the war with the Ancients. As others have pointed out, that would explain why the Builder was there although I think it wasn't for refusing to finish the Device (I think he did something else that really angered someone. It seemed like he only wanted to destroy the device because of all of his time in the prison). Perhaps by being there, the Builder and the wardens were outside of the normal timeline of Nosgoth and so they were not banished with the others. I'm sure the wardens would have agreed to "new management" when Moebius came as long as they could continue to run the place. The Hylden Lord could have known or found out how the Hylden originally sent prisoners to the Eternal Prison and that's how he could send Magnus there. Maybe the wardens even found out about the Hylden Lord's entry into Nosgoth and they repledged their allegiance to him. That could explain if they tore down Moebius' statue. However I don't think that they would still be concerned over experiments conducted for EG if they were back on Hash's side so I think that the statue fell down because Magnus probably ran into it before.

[The Elder God]

I'm not sure that the EG was afraid to devour souls of mentally sick people, since it's a problem of their souls, but their minds. With the rest of it I agree however. Good theory.