LoK Prehistory (Some Spoilers)

[Darkk]

I greatly enjoy the time-jaunting and alternate timeline-forging storyline of the Legacy of Kain series, but one thing that has always puzzled me is the events that occur before the first playable events in the timeline from Blood Omen I or LoK: D. My rough draft for the events of the Winged Vampire/Ancient history is as follows:

1.) Winged Vampire/Ancients fall under the sway of and begin worshipping the Elder God and his Wheel of Fate theosophy.

2.) The Hylden race devises a method of granting themselves immortality, removing themselves from the Wheel of Fate and likely reducing by far the number of deaths among their kind.

3.) Upset at a possible denial of food, the Elder God prompts the Winged Vampires/Ancients to make holy war upon the Hylden, with the ostensible goal being that the Ancients kill off the Hylden and provide the Elder God with a veritable feast.

4.) The long and drawn-out war continually ends in what could be called a series of stalemates, the Ancients and the Hylden for the most part evently matched.

5.) The Ancients, losing both faith and lives, enact a desperate plan to end the war between themselves and the Hylden. The call forth the Pillars of Nosgoth and plan to banish the Hylden into the Demon Dimension.

6.) The Hylden, their banishment nearly enacted, create a curse that is ironic as it is encompassing. Having likely resisted the proselytzing Ancients message of the Elder God, the Hylden plan to force the Ancients into the same "sins" as they are accused of committing. As a last act, they curse the Ancients with a predatory bloodthirst and "gift" them with their own discovery, a means to immortality.

7.) Following the banishment of the Hylden, the Elder God declares the Ancients to be apostate, and banishes them from his "grace." His likely motivations for this are because the Ancients took the easy way out in banishing the Hylden, both denying the Elder God of their souls and at once reducing his food supply dramitically. The Hylden-grated immortality of the Ancients strikes me as a secondary reason, and the Elder God's likely excuse for his sadistic actions... it may also made for a rationale for making the Ancients commit suicide in order for him to feed on their souls.

Anyone with any further ideas, or perhaps something I have missed in trying to piece together the prehistory timeline?

[Matthew Danvers]

At this point I'd like to quote Captain Barbossa. :D

"There be a lot of long words in there. We're naught but humble pirates."

:p

Means - new words for my vocabulary. :)

(I wanna be a pirate, too. :()

Anyway, you have done a very good job. Nothing to add, because it's also what I think.

Great jaerb! :)

- That Matt

[BloodLust's Return]

I think EG Just got PO'd he couldn't feed on their souls any more so he said bye bye. He seems like the flippant kinda squid creature thingy that would do that....

And to Quote Jack Sparrow - " But Why is all the rum gone!?" -

Sorry... I love that movie almost as much as these games :rolleyes: Hehe

Now back to the task at hand! Do I have any ageeing with me about EG!?

[Darkk]

The only problem I am having, my little timeline aside... is to the whole question of the origins of the Elder God. In SR2, a lot has been made of the Elder God appearing at the base of the Pillars, and if I remember correctly even Raziel seems to think that the Elder God somehow had his genesis in the underground grotto at the base of the Pillars. In the past (300-500+ years before the SR2 current era) the Elder God appears small in size, respectively... in the current era he is of middling size... but in the 100-200+ years after the SR2 current era the Elder God has grown tremendously in size. Raziel remarks that as Nosgoth grows more and more corrupt, the Elder God seems to almost thrive.

But... if the Elder God had its genesis at the base of the Pillars... how then could it serve as the Oracle of the Ancient Vampires... and how could it start the Ancient/Hylden Wars if it did not begin to exist at that point in time? I have three theories as to how this works:

1.) The "god" of the Ancient Vampires was not the squidlike Elder God we know and love from the LoK series... but rather it is a completely different entity with differing motives. The Elder God may be pretending that he was the god of the Ancient Vampires, and claiming the Wheel of Fate concept for himself. This makes a little sense in why the Elder God would let the Pillars fall even though it would release the Hylden from their banishment. Perhaps the Elder God was not totally aware of the Hylden... he knew they had once existed in Nosgoth, but was not aware of what a threat they could be.

2.) The Elder God, prior to the creation of the Pillars, was a wholly immaterial and insubstantial being... having only a spiritual presence to the Ancient Vampires. Perhaps the Hylden curse against the Ancients had an effect on the Elder God as well, giving it a loathsome form and driving it insane in the process... which may be why the Elder God claimed the Ancients guilty of apostacy even though their bloodlust and immortality was not directly their own fault.

3.) Alternately, perhaps the Elder God started a new physical transformation when the Pillars were created... the magics necessary to make them may have inadventantly been stolen from the Elder God, causing his old form to deteriorate and a new form to have to be created. This may explain why he "fell silent" for a time (as he grew larger) and when he reacquired enough of his old power he began formulating the downfall of the Vampire Ancients who had damaged him so. His new, squidlike form may be a result of the cursed/corrupted souls of the Ancients he devoured when they killed themselves to be released from the Hylden-granted immortality... a precursor of what Kain's corruption would do to his Vampire-Lieutenants thousands of years into the future of Nosgoth.

Comments, ideas, and criticisms always welcome...

[Vampmaster]

But... if the Elder God had its genesis at the base of the Pillars... how then could it serve as the Oracle of the Ancient Vampires... and how could it start the Ancient/Hylden Wars if it did not begin to exist?

Even though I think the game should end in the post SR1 era, that would be a good reason for Kain to travel back to the Vampire Hylden war era.

While in that era he would discover what really happened between the two races, the origin of the Elder God and get to witness (and even have a part in) the creation of the pillars and near the end of that part of the game he'd come accross the Seer and the Hylden Lord. Then he'd battle HL who'd escape but Kain would have stalled the creation of the mass long enough for the pillars to take effect. Meanwhile the Seer would have inflicted the vampires with the curse. This would make Kain into a true vampire allowing him to create vampires without needing to give up a part of his soul. It'd be like with each accomplishment Kain makes he's being slowly restored to how he's supposed to be. And Nosgoth along with him by the end of the game.

[williehewes]

Wow Darkk, that's actually really intelligent. I was tempted at first to disagree with you cause I've always thought the Elder God was there from before the first events we even hear of, and set up the whole merry string of genocides for his own egotistical purposes, but what you say makes sense.

Why, after all, would a race as wise and angelic as the ancient vampires (or maybe that's just Raziel's interpretation, he seems to have a real 'thing' for the ancient vampires...) In any case, why would they be fooled into worshipping an entity that only sought to destroy the world they lived in? Perhaps they worshiped a different entity, or perhaps their God was driven mad with hunger. It does make sense, you're right.

As for why the Elder cast the ancient vampires from his grace: that seems simple to me. The are no use to him any more, as they are immortal. His anger drives them to suicide (yum), and their deminuation allows the young human race to thrive (double yum). His only problem is that history is not quite happy with this outcome. The vampires don't quite go away.

I think that in the original history, ie. before Kain and Moebius, and even the oracle of the ancient vampires started mucking around with it, the Elder God was destroyed. Somehow. By Kain, who was probably very different in this history, but still the same man (this is why Raz needs to kill him so much, he's the only one who can interrupt Kain's destiny as he is the only creature with free will).

This is why the Elder God has been plucking at the strings of destiny since time immemorial (literally) and why just about everything in the games happens in the first place.

I think.

[The Fortified Hooligan]

Ive thought on this too:

i had interpreted that EG was fine with everything until the pillars were
erected/summoned. the pillars maintain and reflect the health of the land. maybe they are the real reason the EG hates vampires, not so much the imortality. The pillars bind him from drawing the resources he needs and so he wants them down, while this was nearly accomplished with kain's choice it wasnt completely forfilled. as long as kain lives there is the chance that the pillars may yet be redeemed, and EG could be defeated/constrained/banished from nosgoth. he wants kain and the vampires dead because it is their gaurdianship that can keep the pillars working indefinitely, while they would fail , eventually, in human gaurdianship.

/2 cents

[LordMune]

I've thought along those lines too; in SR2, it always seemed to me the Elder God was constrained by the Pillars- like he was impaled on them, attempting to draw them out (and destroying them, I guess, as Raziel points out). The theories in this thread are the most intelligent ones I've seen in quite some time.

[Darkk]

This one just occured to me during my sixth replaying of LoK: D. The Ancients created the Spirit Forge to arm the Scion of Balance for his true endevour... whatever that endevour may be (and which we assume to be the killing of the Elder God). The Spirit Reaver "purifies" the sight of those who bear it or are wounded by it... the former proved by Raziel then Kain, and Moebius is able to percieve the physical presence of the Elder God once impaled by the Reaver. Up until his impalement by Raziel, Moebius had no idea of what the Elder God really was... hence his look of revulsion and fear when he finally sees the creature he has served. Raziel also states that even the Ancients had no idea of the thing "they so righteously worshipped."

But if this is so... why does the Spirit Reaver do what it does? Why is one of its abilities include the perception of the Elder God's true form... and why does it permit Kain to harm the Elder God? I assume that Janos Audron, among others, had a hand in creating both the Reaver and its forges; and Janos seems to speak well of the Elder God (in the vignette with Raziel before his possession by the Hylden Lord). So why would he create a weapon that could be used to damage and possibly kill his god? Perhaps the Ancient Vampires were not aware that the Spirit Reaver would have this capability... or it was an unintentional side-effect of imbuing the blade with the souls of the Balance Guardians.

The more I think about it... the more I think we will need at least one more game to finally iron out these questions. That, and another game would really be a nice thing to see...

[The Fortified Hooligan]

to the post above.

I think the spirit reaver is a part of whatever force is in the pillars that the elder god wants to see destroyed so badly.

the ancients erected/summoned the pillars with the intent of vanquishing the hylden. They aparently had no idea that the EG would be affected and angered in response ( which i still contend is the pillars function as a sort of life support for nosgoth, and not the immortality of the vampires)

probably, had the ancients known that they were going against the will of their god they would have tried other solutions. I think the reaver was intended to smite the hylden as well.

hmmm...

the reaver was forged a devourer of BLood, not souls, nor was it originally able to purify sight. im not sure, entirely, that it was the ancients who have set the events in motion to create the soul reaver as it is seen at the end of defiance. instead i think it is a function of the pillars or whatever prophet/being/force behind them,that the blood sucking reaver has been transformed into a soul devourer/purifyier.

i think we are missing an element here. if not the hylden, nor the ancients, then what is the great enemy of the Elder God? what force was really behind Raziel's reserection?

sigh..... i do like the L.O.K.

cheers

[The Fortified Hooligan]

clarification:


I believe it was probably the ancients who did all the construction of the various forges, but whatever drove them to create the pillars was clearly not aligned with the hylden, and also not a friend to the EG, so what charismatic leader/ shaman/ prophet/ god led them down that path?

not Janos, he doesnt seem to know the ultimate purpose of the soul reaver any more than vorador. He was shocked by the wraith blade.

nod