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View Full Version : Praises and gripes.


Blue Ghost
06-23-2004, 01:33 AM
I'm really glad to have a third installment of the Thief series. I think Eidos did the right thing in developing this title, and I'm glad the basic game play, formula and other basic elements were kept in the game. I liked hearing Steven Russell voice Garret, and I liked being able to sneak around again. It's a very good game, and much in the same tradition of the two previous games. :)

One of the things I liked over the previous installments were the more detailed player models. I remember Jedi Knight (Dark Forces II) went the same route of scaling down the textures and model detail for larger levels. But unlike Jedi Knight the Looking Glass folks used one color pallet, and made their maps fully explorable. This was another major plus. But where I like the explorability in Thief 3, as someone else stated on the "Did you like the Hub Setting" thread, I didn't get the sense of a large sprawling city. The "loading next sector" thing smacked of a previous generation of games (System Shock 2, Quake 2 and its various expansions, etc.). In the previous Thief games the maps were huge and fully explorable. In this installment the maps are dissapointingly scaled down, and hacked up.

Some examples, in the original Thief we could explore an entire crypt, catacombs and caves, or an entire sunken city. In Thief 2 I could explore an entire warehouse complex AND a fully rendered ship. Regrettably in Thief 3 I had to "zone" or "change sectors" when I went to enter the Abysmal Gale or went from one hub in the city to the next. Understandable, but rather dissapointing.

I'll also add that the maps seemed somewhat easy. Even with the AI in full "Expert" mode (patch and all) there just seemed to be too many convenient sewer tunnels, side nooks and other places to hide. The levels are thuroughly designed, but not quite up to snuff of the previous games. There were a fair number of hiding places in the previous Thief games, but they seemed and felt a bit more natural.

I think part of the lack of scale in Deadly Shadows is the fact that the game was slated for not only the PC market, but also the console market. It's an interesting take on bringing a game to market, but not one I would've taken. The scope and playability of the previous installments has suffered because of it.

I did like the fact that there were peasants in the streets, but the City Watch seemed almost hyper-alert to Garret's presence. It's as if they had medieval night-vision goggles and photographic memories. I think a better routine for the AI would be them to have to see Garret in propper light, and only then recognize him.

I liked the traditional animations, but disliked the use of game engine graphics (or whatever 3d renderer was used) for the additional cinematics (or cut-scenes). I assume it was done to cut down on cost, but I don't know for certain. A couple of other games used this technique to add story material, but it's never sat well with me.

The voice acting was good enough. In fact I liked it. Again there's always a "but," and mine is that Garret's speech seemed somewhat rushed on a couple of passages between missions. It was very out of character. I liked hearing the Hammers and Pagans. Good stuff :)

The story was good. Very intrigueing. I liked it. Good stuff :)

The equipment; the dagger was an interesting addition, but like I and others mentioned on another thread we would've preferred an option for either or both. I don't miss rope arrows, but I do miss not being able to climb ropes. I always thought Garret should be using a grappleing hook or high powered crossbow with a rope-bolt.

Finally; how is it Garret forgot how to swim? :( Again the console platform design criteria is probably rearing its ugly head... still, not that I was a big fan of Garret swiming it does seem odd that he's lost his water wings. :rolleyes:

On balance I did like this latest Thief installment. It had a lot of the right feel and air of the original, but lacked some of the scale. One of the real pluses was the atmosphere on the various missions. Very haunting on a couple of missions.

One of the reasons Looking Glass folded was because of the added overhead to help accomplish Thief 2. Adding a handful of people to the payroll, even to finish a surefire sequel to a hit game, adds a drain on company funds. It's pretty clear that what Eidos has done is to try and get the most bang for the buck by playing to PC and console markets with a cult-hit title. It's understandable, but the suits should keep in mind that one of the reasons the previous games were such hits was because of the entirety of their design; gameplay, levels, story, and other elements. A thing the Looking Glass folks understood. Thief 3, in my book, has dodged a bullet because of this, but just narrowly.

I'm hopeful that the next installment will have the bugs worked out of the current build, and will have some of the things I and others have mentioned here and on other threads. :)

That's all for now.

p.s. the faction thing (a game device taken from GTA 2), though interesting, seemed contrived, and didn't add a whole lot.

Kokopelli
06-23-2004, 04:37 AM
I agree with a lot of the points you have mentioned, despite loving Deadly Shadows.

However, IMHO, I believe the Thief series should strictly remain a PC title. It was successful as a PC title before, and I predict it would be just as successful for any future releases. It is because of this dual release, that I am not going to hold my breath for any modding tools.

Rambis
06-23-2004, 08:10 AM
In my opinion, everyone has an opinion. Everything in this post has all ready been talked about in other threads multiple times.

*yawn

...next time, see if anyone else has all ready posted on the topic before hand.

Blue Ghost
06-23-2004, 10:53 AM
Kokopelli; yeah, I'm sure the whole PC verse console platform was discussed, and I also think it should've stayed as a PC only platform. Still, I enjoyed the game for what it was. I've tried editing other games, but have never had the time to finish a level. I enjoyed the other Thief addons, and I hope at some time there'll be more in the future.

Rambis; my apologies. I really don't have the time or patience to read through all the posts on this thread, so I just posted my thoughts and feelings. Contrary to what you believe not every point has been hashed out, though I'm sure many have. I'll also add that it was I who actually brought up some of those points on other threads. I thought reiterating them here was important (as I stated).

Take it for what it's worth. If you find yourself bored or tired of reading, then don't load the thread, or click out. It's that simple.

Rambis
06-23-2004, 10:58 AM
Thanks for the step-by-step for dealing with re-hashed threads.

Anyways, I didn't mean to come off that way, I apologize.

All hail thief!!!!

gar_goyle1
06-23-2004, 11:27 AM
Excellent points made by originator. I also agree that THIEF should have remained a PC only game. Hacking and dumbing it down for a generation of consolers takes away from the experience we PC'ers have come to expect and love. I believe that an editing tool will be made available and that a LOT of fan missions will result. This will probably take a bit of time, but Eidos will eventually come around and release one. Am keeping fingers crossed that another team will buy the franchise and go back to releasing PC only versions of the further adventures of Garrett and his future successors.

In the meantime, lets all enjoy what we have, revisit what we have already played, download fan mods and just keep on thievin'..........YA TAFFERS!!!!!!!!!!!

:p

John C Flett
06-23-2004, 11:30 AM
All respect to those who have said these things before but some of us, at least here in the UK, are late to the party.

Firstly I've enjoyed Deadly shadows so much I don't want to sound too negative. I think it has perhaps the strongest story of the three and some great moments. It is a worthy follow up to 1+2.

I do want to say what I though was wrong even though so much of it has been said before. If we keep voicing these things they might be taken on board for future development. And lets stress we don't want to wait so long for the next part.

Small levels did diminish the impact and really stopped the city from being a worthwhile step. The idea is good but until we have space to actually move and the thieves highway it won't really be worth while. I especially hated the inevitable brawls between AIs that marred the later stages.

AI also need some work to be less predictable and have a bteer memory. That said it does the job.

As Blue Ghost said the cinematics were a poor substitute for what we've seen before.

Beyond that a few niggles like the rubber spines when you knock people out, the strange invulnrability of people in chairs or why can you snuff out some candles but not others?

It is interesting that most of these are cosmetic problems and I think reflects well on the team that they seem to have placed gameplay as their priority. A lesson many developers could learn from.

But where do we go from here? In the final stages of the game I was also wondering if people here only want Thief 4 or would be interested in seeing more of the world?

Is there potential for Eidos to mayby move the series sideways and explore a different aspect of this rich and curious world? Anybody interested in playing a hammer on a crusade? Or a pagan out to destroy society?

Thief 3 has only added to my interest in the settings and people and. whatever minor complaints I have, I want more adventures here.

Blue Ghost
06-23-2004, 11:09 PM
Rambis; my apologies also. I'm so used to being challanged on other game boards (usually by a younger gamer) that I sometimes get locked into a defensive mode. :o

John C Flett; yeah, when I first played Thief I thought for sure more of the world would be explored via different character types. Unfortunately it never happened. The game concept has so many directions that can be explored it's a wonder it hasn't happened. I've enjoyed all the Thief games, but it would be interesting to roam around as someone other than Garret :)