Eidos - so the PC patch is out - what are you doing about the faulty X-Box version?

[SilentPhil]

So the PC patch has been released, fixing the AI bug for PC owners. But there's still been no mention of what's happening regards the X-Box version. Eidos, you've been shipping a faulty X-Box product for a good few weeks now, yet have failed to issue any statement at all regards what you're doing to fix the situation. Can we not get some sort of statement ? Mods, if you don't have any information, could you please ask the higher-ups what they intend to do? We know Eidos is aware of the bug, they're remedied the PC problem, but as far as we can tell have done nothing regards the X-Box version. It can't take that long to decide what to do - recall, replace or whatever.

[Grey Mouser]

You would be surprised what it takes to re-release a console SKU, at least as far as Microsoft is concerned.

About the only thing I can say with any assurance is that yes Eidos is aware of the problem, and that yes we are attempting to correct it. However, it is not as simple as just re-manufacturing the discs, there are other factors that Eidos has no control over. We are in the midst of negotiating some of those presently, and it may take some time.

Beyond that I can't say for sure, but my hunch is that if you are patient, you will likely be rewarded.

[pengy404]

just another reason not to buy a x-box

[Kinggi]

dont expect an answer, personally eidos has screwed themselves with their cold shoulder to xbox gamers. I was talking to an editor over at gamespot who reviewed thief 3, and he was very upset and plans to continue to make news stories regarding a patch for xbox.

Not to mention you got the ******* pc-only attitudes on these boards that could give a flying crap about xbox. Ive already sent support complaints and posted in the technical forum, all without reply.

[pengy404]

to make up for the fact that eidos can't do anything about it, they should send people like you a free box of tissues, to ease your crying...

[Rambis]

...to add on to what pengy said, I think they should send you Sex in the City 1st season DVD and some candles since you're such a cry baby. lol.

But seriously, they're going to do nothing for a LONG time for the X-Crap version.

[Grey Mouser]

Originally posted by Rambis


But seriously, they're going to do nothing for a LONG time for the X-Crap version.

Not actually true, as noted we are working on a solution that is palatable to Microsoft and other related parties. Unfortunately this takes some time, but it should not be a LONG time (depending on what your definition of lenghty amounts of temporal passage are...).

Kinggii - Be patient and you will be rewarded. You are welcome to vent your frustrations in a civil fashion here, but don't try to circumnavigate the swear-filter any more, or I will ban you. Clear? Good.

[timur]

Originally posted by Grey Mouser
Kinggii - Be patient and you will be rewarded.
I think "rewarded" is the wrong word to use. I think "compensated" is more accurate.

I agree that the anti-Xbox comments on these forums are out of line, and those that make them should be admonished by the moderators.

[Socio]

Originally posted by timur
I agree that the anti-Xbox comments on these forums are out of line, and those that make them should be admonished by the moderators.

i think we should BAN all x-box players from the forum so we don't have to read this garbage. :D









[^^ that's a joke, trying to make light of a serious situation]

:p

[Rambis]

I think "rewarded" is the wrong word to use. I think "compensated" is more accurate.

We don't pay you to think.

[Grey Mouser]

Originally posted by timur
I think "rewarded" is the wrong word to use. I think "compensated" is more accurate.


Semantics, but whatever you prefer. :)

[SilentPhil]

Originally posted by Grey Mouser
Not actually true, as noted we are working on a solution that is palatable to Microsoft and other related parties. Unfortunately this takes some time, but it should not be a LONG time (depending on what your definition of lenghty amounts of temporal passage are...).

Kinggii - Be patient and you will be rewarded. You are welcome to vent your frustrations in a civil fashion here, but don't try to circumnavigate the swear-filter any more, or I will ban you. Clear? Good.

I hope the solution isn't a patch via Live as I'm not a Live subscriber. I actually did rent the game and despite the levels being noticably smaller, and that Garrett for some reason jumps at the prophecies instead of just brushing them off as in previous games, I liked it. Patch or fix the game in a way available to non-Live subscribers and I'll probably get it.

[grafixmonkey]

Given that the xbox has internet connectivity and a hard drive, and people seem to have no trouble "patching" the bikinis off of their volleyball players, I'm wondering what there is preventing a patch from being applied to the xbox? (as opposed to re-release, which obviously has to go through a bunch of Microsoft red tape and stuff?)

Granted it wouldn't be the bestest solution ever, but it could potentially be an immediate one that requires as little as a friend with an internet connection and a CD burner.

I dunno much about xboxes, so if you're required to have "hacked" the box to be able to do stuff like that, then never mind.

And remember a couple things people... One, Eidos has no legal requirement to fix this, it's strictly voluntary and done for good PR. Two, nobody even noticed this until a long time after the game came out, and all you're missing from the game is the ability to change difficulty levels and load a game for cryin' out loud. I could wallpaper my room with console games that were intentionally released as absolute crap just because they didn't need any dev time that way, not to mention the army of poor movie and theme ripoff games that nobody bothered to make any good because they knew people would buy the movie theme and not return it. Seriously, this game is awesome even if there isn't an Expert difficulty. You're just whining because the setting is there and in a certain circumstance (which you could easily avoid) it doesn't work right.

[SilentPhil]

Originally posted by grafixmonkey
Given that the xbox has internet connectivity and a hard drive, and people seem to have no trouble "patching" the bikinis off of their volleyball players, I'm wondering what there is preventing a patch from being applied to the xbox? (as opposed to re-release, which obviously has to go through a bunch of Microsoft red tape and stuff?)

That requires a hacked X-Box - and I believe downloadable content requires the game to have been written with downloadable content in mind, so it actually looks for extra content. As Thief doesn't, I'd imagine all it does is load straight off the DVD.



And remember a couple things people... One, Eidos has no legal requirement to fix this, it's strictly voluntary and done for good PR. Two, nobody even noticed this until a long time after the game came out, and all you're missing from the game is the ability to change difficulty levels and load a game for cryin' out loud.
*snip*You're just whining because the setting is there and in a certain circumstance (which you could easily avoid) it doesn't work right.


I don't know about the legal side, because in time honoured tradition, I Am Not A Lawyer. But given that the game itself internally states how the AI should respond on various difficulty levels, and if the game itself then doesn't work as it says it should, I'd describe that as being faulty. And maybe that would get caught by some aspect of whatever consumer/goods legislation applies in various countries/states. As for the circumstances, it's not something that can be avoided. It's not *just* saving and loading that causes the bug. If you head through one of the blue portals more than once the bug is activated.

[Rambis]

The easiest way to circumvent this bug is to walk out your door at night and steal things. No crappy load zones.

Of course, you can't adjust the difficulty or AI....

:mad: :D

[pengy404]

hahahahaha!

[grafixmonkey]

Interesting, I had only heard about it happening when you load. Someone discussed the legal issues of patching, and basicaly the disk is sold "As Is" with no warranty of any kind. The fact that the "difficulty" window gives options for easy, normal, hard, expert has no bearing on whether the game is required to give you the effects described for each of those options. You might argue differently if the outside of the box told you what difficulty levels were there and what effects were present in each difficulty level and the game didn't live up to it, because that might be false advertising. Kind of like if the box showed raytraced graphics labeled as screenshots and then delivered plain old hardware rendered graphics in actuality. But the "As Is" clause in the license agreement might even trump both of those. Basically you're buying "Thief 3", whatever "Thief 3" actually is, and it isn't guaranteed to be what you want it to be or thought it would be. (within reason - they can't re-release Thief 2 and label it Thief 3.)

Another way of looking at it is that the broken difficulties are part of the game "Thief 3", just like being able to pass through a brick wall, go down a pipe and end up in a neverending negative bug world, where all you can do is die, is part of Super Mario 1 for NES. Eidos will try to fix it so that the game works the way it should, but only because not doing so would give them a reputation for having unreliable product support and they don't want a bad reputation, not because someone could take them to court and claim damages.

[SilentPhil]

So how's this going? What kind of progress has there been regards this? How long will it take before we have a fixed version?

[return of the woodsie...]

I totally concur with your sentiments slient phil. I want to purchase the pal xbox version but the 'expert mode glitch' is proving a prohibiting factor!

[Azrael00]

So what's the "AI bug" in TDS for the XBox then?

I love playing Theif of my XBox.

It's great fun playing the game in the comfort of my living room, on a big screen with great sound.

So far the game's been working fine, and the A.I. seem alright, though for now, I'm playing on "normal" difficulty.

If there is a fault and Eidos address it so that people who don't have "live" can have the fix, I'll be very pleased.

(Though I'm still curious to know what it is)

Azrael

[wolfsbane]

Originally posted by Azrael00
So what's the "AI bug" in TDS for the XBox then?

I love playing Theif of my XBox.

It's great fun playing the game in the comfort of my living room, on a big screen with great sound.

So far the game's been working fine, and the A.I. seem alright, though for now, I'm playing on "normal" difficulty.

If there is a fault and Eidos address it so that people who don't have "live" can have the fix, I'll be very pleased.

(Though I'm still curious to know what it is)

Azrael

man azrael :) you been living in a cave :) hehe

the problem if you read any of the posts about problems is that when you play on expert mode (PC or XBOX), when you load a save game or load a new area of the game (eg: going from south quarter to docks) it reverts your expert mode back to normal mode...

so, since you've only played on normal you would not notice this bug.

it has been patched for the PC, right now, according to sources from Eidos (grey mouser) they are doing what they can to get a solution to the XBOX, but there are things standing in their way that are beyond their control

it might be a good idea mouser if you set up a sticky thread with that info and then just lock out all these other threads on the issue when they come up with a last post referenceing the sticky post... that way we (the people in the know) don't have to keep slogging through all these threads

jm

[return of the woodsie...]

Man! if only my PC was capable of runing the game! It would save me all of this bother and hussle over worring over the xbox version!

[Ferrett]

Honestly, I'm happy for the X-Box users that got to play this game on their consoles. However, anyone that has played the first two games knows that this version is EXTREMELY restrictive. The levels used to take several minutes to simply run across, nevermind actually ghost. IAS has had to make the levels small because they wanted to release it for X-Box, which couldn't handle the large levels. This has really reduced the playability of the game for the PC users. Here's to hoping they release an editor for the PC users to get the same amount enjoyment out of T: DS as we got out of the other two releases.

[Thatguy]

Patching stuff on console isnt as easy as it is on PC, consoles wern't designed for that type of thing and basicly....suck at it, they were made for basic gaming and nothing more, which is why their so cheap.

You dont install the game on a console so you cant just replace the files with updated/edited ones, they have to do it a more complicated way, which is probably going to effect the game's performance :P

[Osama uses Winzip]

Taking my game back tomorrow as Eidos failed to respond to my email and forum thread, good job guys you lost another customer!

[SilentPhil]

Well, I guess the answer to the question in the topic is 'Nothing. We're hoping people will forget we have a faulty product on the shelves'. There's been no word from the moderators or anyone else from Eidos - just silence.

[wolfsbane]

Originally posted by SilentPhil
Well, I guess the answer to the question in the topic is 'Nothing. We're hoping people will forget we have a faulty product on the shelves'. There's been no word from the moderators or anyone else from Eidos - just silence.

actually you're wrong, they have said something, they said that the patch is done and ready to be used, but microsoft is holding up the works on figuring out how to release it... i'll try to find the link and post it in this thread, i understand your frustration, but try not to be too cranky before you do some research...

edit: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42586 read down at the end of the thread...

jm

[GhostOfStealth]

Personally I think the best solution Is to put the patch onto the OfficialXboxMagazines cover disc if possible. That way even people without live can update the game. But I do sort of sympathise with Eidos- This is a tricky situation. But please do something quite soon so I can garner even more enjoyment out of this excellent game! Thank you.

[Cheekybumbumboy]

If I were you I'd forget about it, not gonna happen. Anyway there's some amazing new XBox games coming out to look forward to, such as Fable.

[Mammuthus]

Considering it has been stated that their is an Xbox fix but that it is held up for poorly defined reasons, it might help if someone from Eidos could at least provide a little more clarification as to why there is a hold up. What are the issues with releasing the patch via a magazine? Will future versions of the game being distributed be patched versions? Is the reason for the lack of tranparency with the process due to an internal struggle between Eidos and Microsoft?

[Grey Mouser]

Originally posted by Mammuthus
Considering it has been stated that their is an Xbox fix but that it is held up for poorly defined reasons, it might help if someone from Eidos could at least provide ...

Oh, I agree! But I am not legally allowed to do so. I wish I were...

[Mammuthus]

Thanks Grey M

I assumed there was a legal reason for not making an update and I understand that you are constrained in what you can post on the subject. I am mostly interested in what the likelihood (no specifics) is that the game will be patched at all. I have held off buying it to wait and see even though the Thief series is one of my all time favorites. If it will not be patched, I will probably still get it when the price comes down to bargain level. But I would prefer to wait a while and see if a fixed version for the Xbox is made available so I can play at expert level.

cheers,

M

[GhostOfStealth]

Sounds to me that the problem is definitely Microsoft.

They have always been very resistant to patching Xbox games. They think that if they do they will set a precedent whereby developers will just release games not worrying about if there are any bugs or not, knowing that they can just patch them. (Like on P.C) Thereby making the customer suffer in the long run.
I guess they think that quality control should be so good that zero bugs slip through.
Unfortunately this is impossible, so they are the ones inadvertantly causing the aforementioned suffering.

[timur]

Microsoft allows Xbox Live games to be patched almost without restriction. Every Xbox Live game I have has had at least one patch already.

IMHO, I think the blame lies squarely on Eidos and Ion Storm for not making Theif 3 patchable via Xbox Live. There are many levels of "Live support", and the lowest ones do not require any multiplayer whatsoever. Eidos/Ion Storm could have just added the bare minimum support, and let the patch be applied via Xbox Live.

It was stupid of Eidos to release the game without any sort of in-the-field update capability.

[GhostOfStealth]

I apologise.

I didn't know that microsoft allowed all Live games to be patched unconditionally.

Being a noob is sometimes embarrassing.:o

[GhostOfStealth]

This still wouldn't help those of us without live though.

[Mammuthus]

This still wouldn't help those of us without live though.

That is true, but I still don't see why it could not be released in a magazine with a DVD or made available from Eidos. It may be that Microsoft does not want to set a precendent of patching Xbox games like PC games. But if other games are patched or content added via Xbox Live, then it is is rather odd that they make Thief the exception to the patching rule. On the other hand, I wonder why Eidos did not enable Thief for Xbox live even minimally. It is a pity that a Thief game is caught in the middle of company politics.

[GhostOfStealth]

:(
Antone see the scene in the film Fight Club with Edward Norton when he is explaining to some horrified woman on a plane how companies dictate recalls after fatal accidents?

"If A+B is less than the cost of a recall - we don't do one."

This is hardly as serious a situation, but maybe Eidos are hiding behind their desks hoping it will go away.

[wolfsbane]

Originally posted by GhostOfStealth
:(
Antone see the scene in the film Fight Club with Edward Norton when he is explaining to some horrified woman on a plane how companies dictate recalls after fatal accidents?

"If A+B is less than the cost of a recall - we don't do one."

This is hardly as serious a situation, but maybe Eidos are hiding behind their desks hoping it will go away.

blah blah blah

[Mammuthus]

Are there any examples of non-Xbox Live! enabled games that have ever been patched? Not just from Eidos but in general. If so, how was this done?

[Silent_Hitman47]

Originally posted by pengy404
just another reason not to buy a x-box What the hell, one problem with thief and "oops, gues I shouldn't have bought the X-box." The X-box has many great games that I personally play like Halo, Rainbow Six 3, Black Arrow, Fable(coming soon), Halo 2(coming soon), KOTOR, Project Gotham Racing 2, Hitman(both of them), DOOM 3(coming soon), and many more. Just because of one problem doesn't mean you shouldn't buy an X-box. Sure I have a PC too but there are still great games for X-box out there.

[happy_thief]

Serves you right, playing thief on an xbox.... [removed inflamatory text]

================

Troll behavior and bad language will not be tolerated. Last warning before the Iron Claw is activated.

[Silent_Hitman47]

Does my post say I played it on X-box. NO. Ok, And I never said I was having a bad time. Where the hell are you getting that from. I had a great time playing that game but have stopped playing it because I bought DOOM 3. Please don't say things that are NOT in my post. So I guess you can go to Hell

P.S. Sorry for going off topic.

[Peter Smith]

happy_thief: see warning above

[Grey Mouser]

Originally posted by GhostOfStealth


This is hardly as serious a situation, but maybe Eidos are hiding behind their desks hoping it will go away.

Ummm...nope, guess again!

[cazix]

Originally posted by Osama uses Winzip
Taking my game back tomorrow as Eidos failed to respond to my email and forum thread, good job guys you lost another customer!

well they pretty much answered here didnt they?
- and no offense dude, but they did state that they are WORKING on it atm... and since they've gotta get it through Microsoft (as someone already said...) it will take a little longer to get the patched version out for x-box.

so, thats kinda ignorant ;)


caz

[That Miserable Thief]

I bought an XBOX specifically to play Thief DS - I never owned a console before in my life, and I'm 33. I did this because I have a 5-year-old PIII 500 that runs everything I need except recent games, and upgrading or buying/building a new PC to play TDS would have cost me 5 to 10 times as much as buying an XBOX. I do plan to get a new PC in the next year or so, but couldn't budget it in now. I got both the console and the game the day after the game was released, and finished the game on normal difficulty in about two weeks. I was looking forward to playing on hard and expert difficutlies, but obviously am disappointed.

I can say that if Microsoft does not allow the reissue of TDS for XBOX with the difficulty bug fixed, I will never buy another game for this console. I paid $225 total to play TDS, and expected to get 3 to 4 difficutly levels. I got two, and "easy" doesn't really count as a "difficulty level" to a Thief veteran.

This bug is a bad one, and it is really hard to believe that IS or Eidos didn't have the foresight to include XBOX LIVE capability, at least for patching purposes. It is also unimaginable that this bug was revealed BEFORE the game was released in some markets, yet Eidos decided to do NOTHING about it and release a product with HALF of the replay value it advertised.

If Microsoft doesn't make this situation right - and they don't have to, then I would think Eidos has the responsibility to reimburse the consumer for the lack of replay value - which would be half of the retail price. Of course, what I think is logical and just is always laughed out of the door when corporations, lawyers, and profits are concerned.

Eidos will hopefully be acquired by a company that realizes that customer satisfaction - not rushing unfinished, unpolished games out of developers' doors to meet a deadline - is what makes a successful company...successful.

In the end, I feel I'll be stuck with a little-used console and an over-priced TDS collecting dust because I couldn't afford to buy a new PC to play the game I waited 3+ years to play. Who knows, maybe I'll buy TDS for PC when I get a new one so I can get all of the playability I expected out of my first purchase.

Or maybe not.

[Silent_Hitman47]

Well if your not going to play another Xbox game ever than sell it. Sell it. Sell the Xbox, try to sell the game and use that money towards your PC upgrading.

[wolfsbane]

Originally posted by That Miserable Thief
I bought an XBOX specifically to play Thief DS - I never owned a console before in my life, and I'm 33. I did this because I have a 5-year-old PIII 500 that runs everything I need except recent games, and upgrading or buying/building a new PC to play TDS would have cost me 5 to 10 times as much as buying an XBOX. I do plan to get a new PC in the next year or so, but couldn't budget it in now. I got both the console and the game the day after the game was released, and finished the game on normal difficulty in about two weeks. I was looking forward to playing on hard and expert difficutlies, but obviously am disappointed.

I can say that if Microsoft does not allow the reissue of TDS for XBOX with the difficulty bug fixed, I will never buy another game for this console. I paid $225 total to play TDS, and expected to get 3 to 4 difficutly levels. I got two, and "easy" doesn't really count as a "difficulty level" to a Thief veteran.

This bug is a bad one, and it is really hard to believe that IS or Eidos didn't have the foresight to include XBOX LIVE capability, at least for patching purposes. It is also unimaginable that this bug was revealed BEFORE the game was released in some markets, yet Eidos decided to do NOTHING about it and release a product with HALF of the replay value it advertised.

If Microsoft doesn't make this situation right - and they don't have to, then I would think Eidos has the responsibility to reimburse the consumer for the lack of replay value - which would be half of the retail price. Of course, what I think is logical and just is always laughed out of the door when corporations, lawyers, and profits are concerned.

Eidos will hopefully be acquired by a company that realizes that customer satisfaction - not rushing unfinished, unpolished games out of developers' doors to meet a deadline - is what makes a successful company...successful.

In the end, I feel I'll be stuck with a little-used console and an over-priced TDS collecting dust because I couldn't afford to buy a new PC to play the game I waited 3+ years to play. Who knows, maybe I'll buy TDS for PC when I get a new one so I can get all of the playability I expected out of my first purchase.

Or maybe not.

i can't imagine how you would make such a purchase knowing the gaming industry is this way without waiting for a couple of weeks to see what happens...

i'm not saying eidos is to get off scott free, but come on, what game have you seen in the last 8 years that hasn't had a bug of this nature in it's initial release?

like hitman says, sell your xbox, save your money, and for gosh sakes man, don't buy a piece of software right off the counter on the first week of it's release. You say people knew about the bug before it's store release, how come that didn't stop you from buying it then? in this case, i'd have to say consumer error.

jm

[Mammuthus]

I have to agree with wolfsbane, never pre-order or buy a game until reviews have come in and bugs have been identified. I was about to buy Thief when I heard about the bug and then am in a "wait and see" mode. I am glad I heard about it and saved myself the frustration. This is regardless of wether or not it is an Xbox or PC game. So many patches make saved games unusable etc. it is not worth the frustration of getting into something and then having to start over because of a bug.
I also can't see the motivation of getting a system just to play 1 game. I bought an Xbox specifically because I did not want to deal with system upgrading and in general patching games. Even though Thief is a mess, most games I have played on the Xbox work fine out of the box...with constrained time, money, and interest in having to adjust settings for optimal framerates, I am pretty happy overall with my console.

[Silent_Hitman47]

well, the only game I have pre-ordered is Halo 2. Just did it yesterday. That game, I am sure, won't have any huge bugs. Man I can't wait till Nov. 9th. Anyways, you could also kepp your X-box and buy other games, but it sounds like your more of a PC gamer so I would sell it.

[Ferrett]

Well, I'm a pretty die-hard Thief fan. The instant I heard that DS was coming, I put down a deposit and pre-ordered my copy. But, then again, I am a die-hard PC user as well. I do not now, have never, nor will I ever own a console. Those kind of games just don't interest me. The only PC game that I have EVER been disappointed in, as far as bugs/patches/performance was Ruins of Myth Drannor. Most developers for PC are fairly good about keeping their products playable.

Thief 3 is also just about the only game that I have purchased in the last 3 years at full price. I usually wait until the game has been out 6 months to a year and see how much the price drops.

(I just bought Warcraft III/Frozen Throne combo for $20, rather than the $55 it was originally released for, and Frozen Throne released for $40. )

[That Miserable Thief]

You say people knew about the bug before it's store release, how come that didn't stop you from buying it then? in this case, i'd have to say consumer error.

I'd have to say your response is a result of an inability or unwillingness to comprehend, then. You are out of your mind if you think Eidos' action in this case is anywhere near acceptable or short of deceptive.

It is also unimaginable that this bug was revealed BEFORE the game was released in some markets, yet Eidos decided to do NOTHING about it and release a product with HALF of the replay value it advertised.

You see, TDS came out on May 25 or 26 in the USA - WHERE I LIVE. The bug was revealed about seven to ten days later. TDS wasn't released until the second week in June in some markets, yet was released for XBOX nonetheless. My point is, although it would not have eliminated my situation, it would have prevented others in those markets that had later releases from being unknowingly sucked into my situation if Eidos had stopped the release of TDS in any more areas after the revelation of the difficulty bug. The bottom line, Eidos didn't care.

So, I am to blame for waiting over 3 years to play Thief 3, and rushing off to buy it right after it was released? If I had bought it for PC (after spending a bunch of money on a new one), I'd have had a fix 6 weeks ago.

Further, I am not a "gamer", per se. Thus, I don't have the experience of buying dozens of games (or any besides TDS for a console) to know that I should wait for months after a games' release to actually buy it, or else it is my fault if the game doesn't actually work as advertised. I play Thief, mainly. Most other games I've tried have fallen far short of the engrossing experience I first encountered with Thief DP in 1999, therefore I haven't been willing to shell out money to buy disappointment. It seems that I've made an exception in the case of TDS, though.

You're right. It's all my fault for buying a product that advertised various (not two) difficulty levels and receiving a product with ZERO replay value for my dollar. I know to never buy another game right away, and certainly to never give another cent to Eidos or Microsoft's XBOX division. Lesson learned.

[Mammuthus]

You're right. It's all my fault for buying a product that advertised various (not two) difficulty levels and receiving a product with ZERO replay value for my dollar. I know to never buy another game right away, and certainly to never give another cent to Eidos or Microsoft's XBOX division. Lesson learned.

Ironically, the situation you described worked out in my favor with another Eidos product, Deus Ex:IW. It was released in Europe several months later with a bunch of improvements including the interface. So many of the complaints about the game were removed in the version I played so I thoroughly enjoyed it. Unfortunately, Thief was released almost simultaneously in both the US and european markets so the buggy version is pervasive.

It is really unfortunate that you cannot buy something when it comes out and have at least the expectation that it will work properly or if not, that it will be fixed in a reasonable amount of time.

[Grey Mouser]

Let's just say you are a game publisher - hypothetically speaking of course, - and that a major partner you work with, who may or may not publish the operating system and console that a given game is played on, refused to allow you to republish a corrected version of a game that has a bug? And that they hold all the 'cards' as it were.

What exactly would you do?

I'll just be here...waiting for an answer....and growing a beard.

That Miserable Thief...as far as your take on Eidos Customer Service, contact me directly at sholbert@eidos.com and I'll prove you wrong. That is, if you actually wish to be.

[That Miserable Thief]

GM:

I'm not trading emails with anyone. Prove me wrong right here, and I'll accept it and admit I was wrong and my memory has failed me. I'm not into this secretive crap, though I know that corporate types love it. Anything you have to say should be seen by the others that read this forum and are in the same situation as me. A release timeline and bug revelation timeline would be much appreciated to me and many of the other members, I'm sure.

It's not my job to answer your question. Maybe it's yours. I am the consumer and I was mislead, whether knowingly or not, by the publisher of TDS. It is not my problem how it is rectified - just that it is.

You(Eidos) have a lot to learn about satisfying your customers, IMO. Maybe you can do just that while you grow your beard. I don't think I need to go into the fiasco that was the rushed release of an unpolished Thief II, do I? Or maybe I'm an ignorant wretch for not knowing that ALL games need 33MB patches to add things that would have been added if the publisher hadn't forced it out of the developer's hands and onto the shelves early. Even then the game space was partially empty.

You take people's money and deliver and inadequte product and you have the nerve to condescend to me, the customer, when I complain about the product? I didn't say it was an easy situation for Eidos, but THIS IS THE BUSINESS YOU HAVE CHOSEN. I certainly didn't chose your business partner(s) for you.

I will wait for a fix/reissue. That's all I can do. Obviously venting my frustration on the company's BB that is responsible for it will accomplish nothing, save for an employee of said company chiming in to tell me how inadequate and wrong I am for being dissatisfied with their product, methods of service, or how it's my fault that they chose a business partner that won't work with them to achieve the solution to a problem.

[Grey Mouser]

Misled is an awfully strong word. We missed the bug, simple as that, and that much I can say. But if you don't want help, I guess I cannot help you.

I'll still be here, should you choose to contact me, as I have this quirky idea that you do the best you can with the situation that is given you.

[That Miserable Thief]

Well, had I been informed of the situation that was being given - or more accurately, SOLD - to me, I could have avoided it altogether. I wouldn't need to "make the best of it". Yes, I realize (or at least assume) this would not have been an issue if I was able to be informed of it initially.

I have an idea that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Feel free to add that one to your customer relations repertoire. :rolleyes: A hint, when a customer has a legitimate complaint, don't quote old sayings, make challenges, or use sarcasm - and then turn around and act like you were trying to help. It is not the customers' fault that your hands are tied based on the partner(s) you chose.

Yes, misled is a strong word, but that's my feeling. I realize that companies are made up of people and people make mistakes, but that doesn't change the level of accountability of said people or reduce the frustration caused to the customer by those mistakes.

I won't need any help when the problem is resolved and customers are given what they thought they were getting when they made the decision to buy TDS. If this is the "help" you are offfering, let me know. I'll email you right away. Otherwise, I'm not interested. I'm sure that will just be translated into "I don't want help", so I guess you can't help me. I won't trouble you or your forum with any further misinformation on my part.

[Mammuthus]

Misled is an awfully strong word. We missed the bug, simple as that, and that much I can say

I think it is great the Eidos owned up to the bug quickly. It saved me from buying the game in its non-working form. The pity is that the Thief series is one of my favorites and I would like to play DS. As I said before, if it become clear that there will be no patch, I will still get the game. But I don't want to buy it and then find out I have to send the game back and get a replacement or some such other inconvience.
I think the frustration here is that 1. the PC patch was issued quickly. Even if it is an easier process it makes it look like Xbox owners as not taken seriously 2. there is no info on what form the patch might take. Would the game have to be completely replaced? A supplemental disk? Online requirement?

I think at this point you have made it pretty clear that a solution exists and that it is being held up by factors beyond your control. Thus, no timeline can be given for an Xbox patch. But what is the likelihood in your estimation that the game will ever be patched?

[Grey Mouser]

Originally posted by That Miserable Thief
...and then turn around and act like you were trying to help.



"Act" like I'm trying to help? Please read more closely.




...and don't call me Shirley.


Originally posted by Mammuthus
But what is the likelihood in your estimation that the game will ever be patched?

It already is...and has been for weeks. My understanding is that if and when the game is remanufactured, it will be the newer version. Anyone who feels the need may contact me directly about this issue. Beyond that, I really can't say.

[Jumpin_Jebus]

I'd like to chime in here with my 2 cents...

I'd like to make it very clear to everyone that (for the most part) game publishers do NOT intentionally release buggy games. Look at the situation; publishers have a team of say...15-25 testers working on the game from pre-alpha through release. Usually a 6-8 month time period. The developer's themselves also have a test team working on the product. Furthermore, on console games (PS2, Xbox, GC, etc...), the console manufacturer also has a large team of people testing release candidates. Should they find something within the game that bounces the product, then the publisher/developer goes back and tweaks some things. Then re-test, re-submit etc and so on. This includes any patches (online or otherwise) that are made for the game. All this takes lots of time, money, and man power.


Now...if you add up the number of those testers, you might get a total of about 150-200 people. Now compare that to the number of people playing the game after release. Say...around 200 to 300 thousand people. It is absolutely inevitable, bugs will be found that was missed by the testers. It's a mathematical certainty. Plus it's simple common sense.

Now before you all go off on me, I want to make it clear I'm not trying to side-step the issue and explain it off. Yes Eidos/Ion Storm missed the AI/difficulty bug that has got everyone irked. However, keep in mind that Microsoft also missed the AI/difficulty bug. As you may or may not know, publishers do not have the final say on when a game is ready to ship. That decision rests solely on the shoulders of the console manufacturer. If they say it's ready to ship, then 9 times out of 10 the game ships.

Going with what has been posted previously, a re-release of Thief 3 Xbox rides on MS's decision to re-test the new version, and approve it for release. Eidos can't do a damn thing until then. This is specifically why we can't offer a timeline or definite date for the fix.

Anyways, I've probably said more than I should have, but it really ticks me off to see someone bash people for something they have absolutely no control over. :mad: You think we here at Eidos jumped for joy when the bug was discovered? Think again pal... I know for a fact it seriously irked me and my good friend Grey Mouser off somethin terrible. We both work in Eidos CS/Tech Support, and we are 2 of the few who actually deal directly with the public. I can't count how many calls and e-mails we got concerning this problem. Us here in CS do the best we can to deal with the problems our customers experience. If it was within Eidos' power to simply release a new version or send out a .75 cent CD with a patch, it would have been done months ago. But as with all things in life, we have to play by the rules. In this particular case, Microsoft is Judge, Jury, and referee. We can't simply go around them. If any of you are absolutely fed up with waiting for a fix, contact our support department. We will be more than happy to exchange the game for any other Eidos title of equal or lesser value. Ask to speak to Adam. That's me.


In closing, I'd like to say one thing that my boss told me many years ago. Show me a game without any bugs, and I'll show you the Holy Grail of gaming.


This is the Jebus...signing off.

[wolfsbane]

Originally posted by Jumpin_Jebus
I know for a fact it seriously irked me and my good friend Grey Mouser off somethin terrible. We both work in Eidos CS/Tech Support, and we are 2 of the few who actually deal directly with the public.

and all the replies and messages i've heard from grey mouser have been top notch...

it doesn't matter what you say, these people will continue to be pissed, and you will continue to be frustrated and in the end, neither party wins, as you say/said/will say, your hands are tied.

for miserable thief to say that it's eidos fault for picking microsoft to partner with... it just smacks of ignorance, next time you turn on your xbox miserable, check out the logo of the people who own that box. duh... your right, eidos should have picked ford motorcompany to release their game on... i mean, come on, anyone can see that you just have to have the right partner when using their console.

miserable thief: your rightly pissed, but your picking the wrong people to direct your anger at, give ol' m$ a call and ask them why they are unwilling to release the patched version of the game. eidos made a mistake, they didn't find that bug, they admitted to it, fixed it, and tried to publish it (pc side was successful, xbox side was not) time to move on.

jm

[That Miserable Thief]

No, wolfsbane, what smacks of ignorance is an Eidos employee asking a customer what he would do if he were in Eidos' situation. (Well, that and you telling me MS makes the XBOX console and had to be a partner for the game to be released for it - as if I didn't understand that fact.) I didn't pay full price for half a game and shrugged shoulders from the company that distributed/financed said game.

I understand completely the reasons for the MS partnership. When Eidos entered into the relationship, I'm sure they were informed of the limitations MS would put on their ability to fix bugs/reissue, etc. That is why, at the least, XBOX live capability should have been included in TDS. Yeah, hindsight, I know.

If there had been no partnership with MS, Thief3 may not have been possible at all. If it had been possible to be released for PC only with no MS partnership, I would have waited for my opportunity to buy the appropriate hardware before I bought the game. It was released for XBOX, so I bought the game and the appropriate hardware to play the game, and unwittingly sold myself short in doing so.

I know that customer service reps are not responsible for this situation, and I never meant to imply that they are. Unfortunately, the customer service reps are representatives of the company and must face the wrath of irate customers feeling shortchanged. I, and many others, didn't expect to go 90 days past release with half the game for which we paid. I waited over 60 days to make my opinion known. We are tired of waiting. Eidos needs to make it right - and, in my opinion, that DOES NOT mean offering to trade TDS for any other Eidos title - or they should start offering up prorated refunds to registered owners.

I sent in my registration for TDS (XBOX), yet have received no information about the status of this problem based on the contact info I provided. What is registration for, then? Soley future marketing? It would have been wise for Eidos to contact registered buyers of TDS about this situation. Choosing to ignore us has only created customer alienation and frustration. With decisions like this, is it any wonder Eidos is in financial trouble?

I planned to buy TDS for PC when I had the right machine, but will be influenced greatly by Eidos' solution to this situation, and the uncertainty/unlikelihood of the release of an editor/SDK. I will also believe, until I am shown evidence otherwise, that Eidos knowingly released TDS in some markets AFTER the AI difficulty bug was revealed.

Of course, I hope MS does allow the reissue, hopefully resolving this entire situation. Maybe a flood of emails to the right person at MS might help, but how would a customer know who that is?

[timur]

Originally posted by That Miserable Thief
Maybe a flood of emails to the right person at MS might help, but how would a customer know who that is?
I already asked that question and got no reply. I think Eidos does not want us to annoy MS.
Another thing that disappoints me is that the Xbox magazines won't talk about this problem either. I, and others on this forum, have contacted them about it, but they ignored those emails. I think a flood of emails and letters to Xbox Nation and OXM would help.

[Clumsyorchid]

I understand completely the reasons for the MS partnership. When Eidos entered into the relationship, I'm sure they were informed of the limitations MS would put on their ability to fix bugs/reissue, etc. That is why, at the least, XBOX live capability should have been included in TDS. Yeah, hindsight, I know.

I've seen this idea that adding Xbox Live to the game would somehow allow Eidos to patch the game without having to go through any of the checks and balances of resubmitting code for patch release. This is actually not the case, xbox live cannot be added only to be used to simply patch a single player game. Even if Xbox live was somehow allowed to be added to Thief DS (very very unlikely), the game code would still have to be submitted to Microsoft, and the same result would occur. Just wanted to clear that up.

[That Miserable Thief]

I was speaking in past tense, thus:

That is why, at the least, XBOX live capability should have been included in TDS.

I am confused as to the tense in which you are speaking. Are you saying that if "live" capability had been included in the initial release, that MS would still be able to deny a patch? Wouldn't it be much easier for MS to check out the code of a patch than to do a re-test of an entire game with four difficulty levels, or would they have to apply the patch and re-test the game like it was the first time, anyway? Are you saying that MS would not have/has not allowed "live" capability in a single-player game for patching purposes?

I'm very sorry I got involved with this console. I bought the console primarily to play TDS until I could afford a new PC. So, for my $200+ (console + game + tax), I received Easy and Normal difficulties, and I skipped Easy. Basically, I paid $200+ for one trip through TDS. What a bargain.

I hope that when/if a solution is reached, I will be informed through the contact information I provided on my game registration card.

[Grey Mouser]

Originally posted by That Miserable Thief

I hope that when/if a solution is reached, I will be informed through the contact information I provided on my game registration card.

As noted, you may contact me directly concerning this matter.

Your choice not to is...your choice.

I cannot guarantee when you may or may not hear any news about this via reg-card information, that is not handled by Customer Support.

However - as noted - you may contact me about it. Should you choose to. Or not. And in that case, who is the ignorant one? Me for trying to help you, or you for prefering to refuse the offer? I guess it DOES give you a reason to post...but a poor one.

You go ahead and think up your next rebuttal, I think I'll be closing this thread down. It has served its purpose at this point.

And - as noted - should you actually wish to discuss available solutions you, or anyone else, may contact me directly.

The Wheel never stops turning, That Miserable Thief. See you in the world.