Why does Thief 3 (demo) perform so rediculously bad on such an amazing system?

[n8bowa]

System Specs: Athlon 64 3200+, 1 GB PC3200 DDR400 Corsair Ram, K8T-FIS2R Neo Motherboard, Radeon 9700 Pro, 80 GB SATA 7200RPM HardDrive, 52X CD-ROM, 420 Watt Power Supply. SB Audigy X-Gamer.

There's no reason why Thief 3 (demo) should constantly stutter, hold-up, and lag relentlessly under my system specs. This is with v-sync off, AA/AF off, 800 x 600 Resolution, and LOWEST DETAIL SETTINGS POSSIBLE. I've reformated and, just for Thief 3, bought a whole new HD, tweaked everything concerning computer performance all the way down to BIOS, RMA'd my video card, and, quite frankly, I've done everything else that you can think of. All other games work flawlessly, including Far Cry. There's no reason why I should be getting such rediculous performance. This is obviously not a user-end fault.

Is the demo just crap or something? I'm afraid to buy a game that's unplayable. I'd like to judge Thief 3 fairly, even though it doesn't seem to even compare to Thief 1/2, but I can't without atleast somewhat playable gameplay.

Please help :-\ (And no: I'm not buying the full version of Thief 3 just to see if it works. I'd like to give a game a fair trial before I dish out or waste $40 .)

[Dragoro]

My guess is that ya dont know how to set up your comp. Thats not a dig at you, theres alot of people that dont know how.

[n8bowa]

I actually do. If my computer wasn't setup right, then I would most likely see performance problems in games like Far Cry which have pretty much twice the detail that Thief 3 has. Trust me, I know how to setup my computer right; I'm a very advanced user.

[Salvage]

If you're expecting 60+ fps then good luck. You're probably only going to get 30-60 fps @ 1024x768.

This is an engine issue(not a problem, but a design choice which requires a very powerful vpu).

However, you should be getting a playable framerate with that setup. I assume you're using the 4.4 drivers seeing as they're the only ones that work properly with Thief 3.

[Mr. Perfect]

The use of pixel shaders in this game is far beyond most anything else out, including Far Cry. The entire lighting stsytem is calculated through your shaders. That said, the 9700 should do fine at 1024x768. A dinky little 8500 LE in one of my machines is poping along at 800x600 and higher detail settings then you're using, so it must be something with your system.

[MrWynd]

my specs:

P4 2.4g 533FSB
512 @ 400DDR
all-in-wonder radeon 9800 pro
SB audigy gamer


I can play the game in 1024x768 with everything on full. you can see from these images my framerates in the top left corner:

http://somewhattwisted.com/Thief/

This is with a very clean machine with no overclocking. I'm a computer repair tech and know how to maximize what I've got. I prefer not to overclock, the small boost isnt worth side effects.

The game still crashes after around 10+ hours total gameplay (so most sessions it never crashes)

I've noticed people have gotten the game to run a lot better if they have a sound card that takes cycles off their CPU.

[chris20202]

n8bowa, what sort of frame rates are you actually getting?

[Fossa]

Sounds like a driver issue to me.
Check your directX check your drivers.

[oherror]

Originally posted by Fossa
Sounds like a driver issue to me.
Check your directX check your drivers.

what Fossa said is true with some radeon drivers. certain drivers work better then others. I think i read a post on your problem about some third party drivers that fixes it. search around.

As for my system thief 3 works perfect at very high res.

my specs arn't as high as yours except in the ram...but since i have practically the same profession as MrWynd ie "computer repair tech/network tech" i can squeeze out the best performance for what i have.

Specs...

Athlon XP 2.2
2 gigs of 2700 DDR
GeForce FX5950 pro
SB audigy gamer

course my performance might differ do to the different graphics cards. Still check around there is bound to be some some with the same problems. good luck

[Dash]

Crappy programming? Optimizations out the window? X-Crate constraints? You name it...

[n8bowa]

DirectX 9.0B, Catalyst 4.5.

I think I might know what the problem is though. Ever since I got this new K8T Neo board, the sound blaster driver setup hasn't been recognizing my Sound Blaster Audigy X-Gamer (whenever I open the driver setup, it says there's no sound blaster card on my system). So instead, Windows XP immediately installs it's own drivers (God I hate how it does that without your consent.) I can't enable hardware acceleration for the sound card with them. Sorry, forgot about this; shoulda pointed it out.

Ugh, gotta dish out another $150 I guess ... PC's are so expensive... gotta get a console or something...

[ThieveryRoxxx]

Radeon 4.4 drivers I´d recommend. They improved my performance significantly. I´m running at 1024x768, maxed detail settings, shadows not maxed, 4xAA, 8xAF, VSync off, Bloom off with XP1800, 512MB Ram, Radeon9700 and the game is doing very fine.

[Faust]

Originally posted by n8bowa
I actually do. If my computer wasn't setup right, then I would most likely see performance problems in games like Far Cry which have pretty much twice the detail that Thief 3 has. Trust me, I know how to setup my computer right; I'm a very advanced user.
I'll be honest with you, that kinda sounded a little bit creepy. Like you might have sex with your computer or something.

[n8bowa]

I'll try those then ThieveryRoxxx.

Faust: I have no idea how you came to that conclusion, but whatever lol

[Faust]

It was the 'very' in italics that did it. Made your post seem, almost, disturbing.

[Quillan]

The setup isn't recognizing your sound card? Are you sure it's not using your onboard sound now? That will eat up a lot of CPU power, which could be causing your problem.

[bravus]

Onboard sound can sometimes be turned off in the BIOS, and it could be that you could fix all your problems, without buying a new sound card, that way.

[vurt]

a friend of mine only has a Duron 1.3 + Geforce4. It runs quite good at highest detail in 1024x768 (around 25FPS, we used FRAPS to check) it's all about tweaking your system and a bit of common knowledge about computers. But you can also be unlucky to have components that somehow doesnt like each other / conflicting in some way and is degrading the performance.

[dracflamloc]

You DID install your AGP drivers for your motherboard right? Many mobos need thier own special drivers to utilize AGP and if you don't install them it's like you have a PCI card. To check run dxdiag, goto Display, and then see if "AGP Texture Accel" is greyed out.

Just a thought, don't kill me. I reformatted my comp once and forgot to do this and was wondering why certain intensive games were being slow.

[n8bowa]

Faust: I guess you interpreted my use of italics wrong. I was using the italics to stress the word 'very' more, thus making the use of the word seem more powerful than just regular, unitalicized (spelling) 'very'. I did this to insinuate that I'm very advanced with computers. I was in no way making a sexual representation between me and my computer (if that's what your getting at?). I still don't understand you, but how about dropping it b/c it is of unimportance.

Back on topic: I had to reformat today b/c ATI's uninstall utility is buggy, but I won't get into that. So I've got a fresh install of everything. Now, though, for some reason not even Windows XP recognizes my sound card, even after trying it in all of the different PCI slots. I've gotta use the crappy AC97 onboard sound until I get a new Sound Card I guess...

Anybody know of any fairly priced Sound Cards that don't have a whole slew of Windows XP bugs, and are at the same time very good?

And yes, I did install my motherboard AGP drivers. I doubt the other games, like FarCry, that I've stated would run so well without them. AGP texture accel is black and is 'enabled'.

[[clan]Payne]

wow... all this TOP HARDWARE and people have problems, while my cheap ass computer hadles the game good. Of course i do get lag SOMETIME when there is too much light but THATS IT.

System SPecs:

512RAM
1.42 GHZ Processor Athlon
80 GB HD
GeForce FX 5200 128MB
Sound Card: even i dont know, it 5 years old though

[bravus]

n8bowa, did you try disabling onboard sound in your BIOS, like I suggested? It might fix all your problems. Check it out.

Edit: Heh, I went so far as to download and read the manual for your mobo (don't say I never do anything for you!), and it turns out there's no BIOS setting for the onboard audio.

Have you tried removing your soundcard and playing using the onboard? That might get rid of the conflict and make the game playable.

[Faust]

Originally posted by n8bowa
Faust: I guess you interpreted my use of italics wrong. I was using the italics to stress the word 'very' more, thus making the use of the word seem more powerful than just regular, unitalicized (spelling) 'very'. I did this to insinuate that I'm very advanced with computers. I was in no way making a sexual representation between me and my computer (if that's what your getting at?). I still don't understand you, but how about dropping it b/c it is of unimportance.

Yes. I know the meaning thankyouverymuch. I'm just pointing out that your post made you seem rather, how should I put it, creepy? You're very advanced, are you? :rolleyes:

[Stereophile]

Faust, you're a freak.

[Quillan]

How can an upper-end motherboard have onboard audio and no BIOS switch to disable it?

And on the subject of sound cards, you can get an Audigy 2 for about 70 USD online, for an OEM card. That's what I'm using.

[Faust]

Hahaha. Its primary school all over again.

Thankyouverymuch, you beautiful idea, you!

[n8bowa]

Yeah....



Well anyways, my BIOS does have a feature to disable onboard sound. I've had it off ever since my sound card stopped working (Today), so that's not the problem :-\ . Funny thing is, I can't tell any difference in quality between the Audigy Gamer and the AC'97

[n8bowa]

So, I downloaded FRAPS. With the exception of a few parts where it drops down to 15, My FPS hangs around 20-30 fps pretty much everywhere, but it definitely looks and feels as if it's a bit lower. There is still just so much stuttering and hold-ups it's rediculous. (I think) I'm supposed to get better performance than this. If not, I don't see the bother in playing this game anyways.


I've noticed that the character and mouse movement in this game feels very unstable and "jerky". Whether this is related to my stuttering and low FPS problems is a mystery to me. It just feels as if when Garrett is walking/running forward, he is taking a big long step, coming to a completely instant stop for a second or two, and then repeating the process over again (As if he's marching or something). When moving the mouse from one side of the screen to the other, it seems to twitch and jump constantly. These appear to be directly related to my performance problems, but maybe some of you have noticed it? My mouse isn't bad either; this doesn't happen in any other games. I got the MX510 not too long ago and it's the smoothest, most precise, and accurate mouse I've ever used.

I also tried disabling onboard sound and removing the SB Audigy X-Gamer from the PCI slot altogether. Still no performance increase without sound :-\ . I'm beginning to think I'm doomed. From my experience and the look of many other people's, thief 3 seems horridly optimized.

[LeatherMan]

Do you have the latest BIOS (http://www.msi.com.tw/program/support/bios/bos/spt_bos_detail.php?UID=496)?

Do you have any gamepads connected or installed?

Can you switch your mouse/keyboard to a different USB port? Can you try a different mouse or keyboard?

Just tossing out ideas...

[n8bowa]

Yeah, tried em all

Anyways, Did the whole developement team leave? I hope they'll release atleast some type of patch to try to combat these problems people are having.

[argaen]

I've noticed that the character and mouse movement in this game feels very unstable and "jerky". Whether this is related to my stuttering and low FPS problems is a mystery to me. It just feels as if when Garrett is walking/running forward, he is taking a big long step, coming to a completely instant stop for a second or two, and then repeating the process over again (As if he's marching or something). When moving the mouse from one side of the screen to the other, it seems to twitch and jump constantly. These appear to be directly related to my performance problems, but maybe some of you have noticed it? My mouse isn't bad either; this doesn't happen in any other games. I got the MX510 not too long ago and it's the smoothest, most precise, and accurate mouse I've ever used.

I have this exact same problem. Well when moving using WASD movement, the game runs smooth as silk, but as soon as I move with the mouse, it lags to crap. I've got a 3.0ghz, raid sata raptor HDs, 9800pro, 1024mb of corsair, and an audigy 2.

I've tried changing the mouselag to various settings in the default.ini but nothing seems to work. I'm using the omega drivers. Anyone else have this problem or know how to fix it? Thanks!

PS - I'm a VERY advanced user! :p

[n8bowa]

lol, yes--please help. This game looks like it could be alot of fun :(

[Malackii]

I'm on a weaker system (p4 2.4, 9800 pro, 1 gig RAM, SB Live!) and have only had those symptoms with sampling at 4x, although even at 3x there's the odd jerk when turning with the mouse. Played the game at 1024 / 768 and generally no problems. The biggest game-affecting difference I can see between your system and mine is the sound card. Mine is unsupported for any of EAX stuff.

As you know, the sound card / driver can affect performance bigtime if it isn't handled right. As a test, do you have a lesser card you can try?

[n8bowa]

I've tried disabling onboard sound and just not using any sound cards at all. No difference in performance.

Ion Storm: Please don't say that Thief 3 needs a 9800 Pro to run smoothly. Sure the shadows are nice, but the textures, models, and all of the other graphical features are less than sub-par.

[bravus]

I have to admit, the smooth performance I've been getting was on 1x multisampling - will test higher values and report back.

Edit:

OK, with all settings cranked, at 4x multisampling, I was getting frame rates in the 20s, occassionally dipping into the high teens. This did feel a bit juddery, particularly as the mouse tracked across.

I do like the look of multisampling much better than bloom (I discovered), although I did notice some white artifacting around the edges of plant leaves in the distance.

I also noticed that the frame rates drop when you're standing still in a corner looking in one direction. That makes sense, and is actually an optimisation - why spend processor power redrawing a static scene a hundred times a second?

At 3x it was much smoother, and got rid of the juddery feeling, and frame rates were in the 30s and 40s, occassionally dipping into the high 20s. Still some minor artifacting on plants, but everything else looked amazing.

I got killed before I tried 2x, but I'll be trading off and finding the optimum, I suspect somewhere between 2x and 3x. I can't believe I didn't try this out before!

For the record, my specs are:

Athlon XP 3000+
Asus A7N8X Deluxe
Radeon 9800 Pro
1024 MB of DDR 3200
120 GB SATA HDD

Three further quick notes:

1. All of the above reports were at 1280 x 1024.
2. For some reason FRAPS reads the introductory video tralier as 480-500 FPS. ;)
3. I guess the info in this post pretty definitively answers the 'is a 9800 Pro sufficient to run the game' queries! ;)

[Malackii]

This may sound obvious, but you've set your display drivers' settings to allow Application Preference for AA / AF?

[n8bowa]

yep

[grafixmonkey]

I don't experience any jerkiness with mouse movement. I do know there are big issues with having a gamepad connected while you play, but that's been mentioned. Is your Radeon some kind of off-brand card? Is there any overclocking going on? Does it have at least 128 MB memory? (not that I've seen any radeon 9700 with less than 128 I suppose...)

You did try those 4.4 drivers right? The 4.5's have big issues, though they weren't jerky for me.

hmmm..... You've got one of the first systems I've seen on here that's using a 64-bit processor. Don't suppose you can force it to act 32-bit? Are you using the 64-bit Windows XP? Maybe an old copy of win2K or the normal 32-bit XP to test? I've yet to play with anything 64-bit.

I saw one guy trying to debug an insane problem that ended up being caused by a USB-connected cable modem. I assume you've already tried turning everything off, but you never know.

I doubt the demo is any different from the actual game minus some levels. They didn't release the demo until a bit after the game was released.

The Audigy X-Gamer doesn't support all that much more than your onboard sound in terms of audio technology. An Audigy 2 however has lots of nifty stuff in it that you might like. I'm pretty happy with mine, although I still harbor a grudge against Creative Labs for the murder of Aureal. Try the Creative Labs website, read a bit about it, you might be intrigued.

[n8bowa]

No gamepads.

Not off-brand.

No overclocking.

128 Memory (set to 128 in BIOS too).

Using 4.4's.

Not using windows xp 64 bit. I *think* the processor acts just like a 32 bit CPU when on 32 bit programs. New copy of Windows XP with Service Pack 1.

With the exception of the mouse and keyboard, no USB connections.

Thinking about getting this card: http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=29-102-158&depa=0

Cheap and has gotten very good reviews. 4/5

How does the full game compare to the demo detail wise?

[Quillan]

That's the card I have, and I've got no complaints about it.

[Malackii]

Grafixmonkey might have a point with the 64 bit thing. Maybe use the compatibility toolkit to set some options for the demo?

[n8bowa]

I've realized that I get serious slow downs whenever I move the mouse or turn/strafe in any direction, even slightly. The thing is FRAPS doesn't record any of these slow downs, but it's painstakingly apparent that I'm getting them from just watching the game.

I'll try the toolkit.

[argaen]

Yes! After deleting and reinstalling the Logitech mouseware I know get 40-50 fps everywhere. The game runs awesome at 1024x768 with full options. Maybe try that if all else fails.

[n8bowa]

Agaen, are you plugged into the USB port or the actual designated mouse port?

Also, forgot to mention this, but what compatibility Tool Kit are you talking about?

[argaen]

I'm in the the mouse spot.

Do people put their mice on usb spots? Is that better/worse to do? I don't know of the difference.

Good luck to you N8

[bravus]

Some mice are USB, and can be plugged into a USB port, while others are PS/2, and go into a different port - round, with pins. Some USB mice come with an adapter that lets them go into a PS/2 port, and if you're having USB conflicts, sometimes that will solve them. I'm having minor USB challenges - every now and then the mouse will freeze for a moment. Not enough to be a hassle, but occassionally it will make Garrett charge out in front of a guard! This happens in anything I do on this machine, not just this game.

[inuptia]

I have similar problem with this config:
Athlon XP 1800+
768 MO DDR ,Radeon 9600 pro 256mb
and with all option to minimum (resolution 800*600)i have allways the same rate:10-24fps (more 10 than 24 of course)
I know i have a little processor but i think there is another problem on this game...

[n8bowa]

The mouse on PS/2 makes no difference in performance or even mouse movement. Though, my keyboard only plugs into USB, so I'm not sure if that could be the problem.

[Malackii]

I've had similar problems with Logitech drivers in the past, where I've had to re-install them (still using Logitech atm, no problems).

The toolkit I'm talking about is the MS Application Compatiblity Toolkit (http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/xpmanaged/32_xpapd.mspx). I really don't know if it'll help you, but I did have to use it to get Thief 1 / 2 to run on my system, reason being the game had a hard time with hyperthreading. Since hyperthreading sorta kinda mimics dual CPU, and you're using a 32-bit o/s and game on a 64 bit system yadda yadda... dunno, you might find something useful.

It's a bit of a long shot but you've exhausted just about every other possibility.

Edit: by the way, the Administration Tool is the part of the kit you're interested in. Create an entry for the demo executable and look at the various settings you can play with.

[King_dbm]

Originally posted by grafixmonkey
I don't experience any jerkiness with mouse movement. I do know there are big issues with having a gamepad connected while you play, but that's been mentioned. Is your Radeon some kind of off-brand card? Is there any overclocking going on? Does it have at least 128 MB memory? (not that I've seen any radeon 9700 with less than 128 I suppose...)

You did try those 4.4 drivers right? The 4.5's have big issues, though they weren't jerky for me.

hmmm..... You've got one of the first systems I've seen on here that's using a 64-bit processor. Don't suppose you can force it to act 32-bit? Are you using the 64-bit Windows XP? Maybe an old copy of win2K or the normal 32-bit XP to test? I've yet to play with anything 64-bit.

I saw one guy trying to debug an insane problem that ended up being caused by a USB-connected cable modem. I assume you've already tried turning everything off, but you never know.

I doubt the demo is any different from the actual game minus some levels. They didn't release the demo until a bit after the game was released.

The Audigy X-Gamer doesn't support all that much more than your onboard sound in terms of audio technology. An Audigy 2 however has lots of nifty stuff in it that you might like. I'm pretty happy with mine, although I still harbor a grudge against Creative Labs for the murder of Aureal. Try the Creative Labs website, read a bit about it, you might be intrigued.

The Audigy 2 doesn't support a 7.1 speaker system it only supports 6.1. So if you ever plan on buying a 7.1 system don't get it. Instead get the audigy 2 zs which comes with two games which aren't all that great but hey free games (tomb raider angel of darkness, and rainbow six 3) and it's only 99 dollars. So it's up to you, if you only want a 5.1 speaker system, then just for for the audigy 2, if you want a 7.1 then go audigy 2 zs

[n8bowa]

Tried that toolkit and no luck. I think I'm just going to have to accept that Ion Storm made a buggy game--a game so buggy not even a very good system like mine can handle it smoothly. Rediculous.

[Quillan]

I suspect it's a conflict with something in your system, most likely the motherboard in some way. Face it, 64 bit CPUs, while the wave of the future, are still the exception rather than the rule. There could easily be something in the chipset that doesn't react well with the coding in the game.

[n8bowa]

Probably, but are any other people here with 64 BIT CPU's having this problem?

[Lusence]

its always the case for me that xbox/pc game titles always run like crap on my pc.....

[n8bowa]

Originally posted by Lusence
its always the case for me that xbox/pc game titles always run like crap on my pc.....

Same here (well they used to on my old comp). Game developers never seem to make even half-decent ports.

[Malackii]

Out of curiosity - run the game, load up Task Manager, right-click on the demo process and select Set Affinity. How many CPUs are being registered? A hyperthreading system will register 2, I'm wondering what a 64 bit system with a 32 bit o/s will show...

[n8bowa]

I would, but I can't. Thief 3 automatically tabs back to itself after you alt-tab out of it. I ****ing hate when programs decide that they can do that, but theres nothing (that I know of) that I can do about it.

[Malackii]

Alt-enter to go to windowed mode. You can then minimize it. Refocus on the game and alt-enter again to go back to full screen.

[n8bowa]

THere's no option to "set infinity". Also, Catalyst 4.6 doesn't make any difference in performance--just makes the shadows look uglier than they already were.

[Malackii]

Sorry I forgot to specify - you need to look at the Process tab, not the Application.

[n8bowa]

I did :( There's only end process and set priority.

[chris20202]

Originally posted by Malackii
Out of curiosity - run the game, load up Task Manager, right-click on the demo process and select Set Affinity. How many CPUs are being registered? A hyperthreading system will register 2, I'm wondering what a 64 bit system with a 32 bit o/s will show...

What operating system are you running? I also don't see any Set Affinity, after right clicking on any process. Nothing but End process, end process tree, and Set Priority. (I've got windows xp)

[LeatherMan]

Originally posted by Malackii
Out of curiosity - run the game, load up Task Manager, right-click on the demo process and select Set Affinity. How many CPUs are being registered? A hyperthreading system will register 2, I'm wondering what a 64 bit system with a 32 bit o/s will show...
Originally posted by chris20202
What operating system are you running? I also don't see any Set Affinity, after right clicking on any process. Nothing but End process, end process tree, and Set Priority. (I've got windows xp)
In a nutshell, "Set Affinity" allows you to designate which single processor of a dual-processor system will run any given task. If you do not have a dual-processor system you will not have the option available. A Pentium4c, with Hyper-Threading enabled, tells the OS it has dual-processors when it only has one and you will get the "Set Affinity" option with that processor. No other desktop processor has that ability so you will not have that option, 64-bit capable or otherwise.

[Malackii]

That answers that question :)

Dunno what else to try n8...

[grafixmonkey]

Originally posted by King_dbm
The Audigy 2 doesn't support a 7.1 speaker system it only supports 6.1. So if you ever plan on buying a 7.1 system don't get it. Instead get the audigy 2 zs which comes with two games which aren't all that great but hey free games (tomb raider angel of darkness, and rainbow six 3) and it's only 99 dollars. So it's up to you, if you only want a 5.1 speaker system, then just for for the audigy 2, if you want a 7.1 then go audigy 2 zs

I think those 6.1 and 7.1 systems are nutz anyway. 5.1 sounds great, and it's what natively supports movies. Besides, the 7.1 speaker sets available cost more and are of lower speaker quality than high end 5.1 systems like the Klipsch set or the Logitech set. Creative Labs / Cambridge Soundworks don't make very good speakers. (I've owned some.)

Besides, the Audigy 2 ZS is kind of like a replacement for the normal Audigy 2 line. I haven't seen many Audigy 2's for sale at all, only ZS's, and they're just about the same price.

[Taffer2004]

LOL...i"m using a $15 Mad Dog 4.1 sound card and the game works great....i can even hear the bad guys coming up behind me....(as long as I'm in 1st person mode of course....)

On board audio is also often underrated...many high end mobos have very nice audio built in....

[grafixmonkey]

No they don't, you just don't know how good it can sound. Yeah sure, sound will come out of the speakers. But some people have higher standards than that.

[Taffer2004]

Dude...now you are tempting me to buy an Audigy...thanks a lot! Just what I needed, another 100 toy for my computer....

[grafixmonkey]

Well, whether you feel like believing it a lot, the Audigy cards do offer a lot of stuff that even the best onboard cards don't (not even SoundStorm). Multiple EAX environments positioned in 3D space within each other, blending between environments instead of abrupt switching, and some other stuff in EAX 3.0 and 4.0 (onboard supports 2.0 or less), not to mention decent microphone support (onboard always has really bad noise in the microphone), and much better signal-to-noise ratio so that you don't have a hissing or humming noise when you turn the volume up. It also gets rid of the problem where mouse movement and cdrom servo motors could be heard through the speakers because of crosstalk between components.

Not that I'm gonna insist that you buy one or anything, it's just fyi on what the actual improvements are.

[Taffer2004]

New has about 15 audigy's anywhere from $42 to $200+...which one would you say is the best for performance/price ratio?
thanks for the advice. (btw: i'm cheap...as u could tell by me using onboard audio)

[grafixmonkey]

I would get an Audigy 2 unless you just refuse to pay that much. It offers most of the good stuff that the onboard doesn't, but I'd have to really read into it to figure out exactly what. The Creative Labs website would tell you more exactly what the features are though: www.creative.com ... if you can navigate through their crazy product plugs and find the info that is...

Audigy 2 ZS I think is the newest version and gives really good signal-to-noise ratio, but I think has same exact features as a "normal" audigy 2. You can find an Audigy 2 ZS online for $80-ish anyway, and that's including some good games too. Try www.newegg.com, they're just about the best place online for parts.