Ghosting?

[mystery meat]

I am new to these forums but not to the Thief series. I have seen the term ghosting thrown around and I am wondering what it is. Can anyone tell me?

[Kildread]

Not killing/knocking out anyone and not being caught.

[Stalin]

It means going through a level as if you were never there. No alerts, no kills, nobody knocked out - some take it as far as no torches put out, or any other kind of arrows fired. Basically, sneaking through the entire level without anyone ever knowing you were there.

[mystery meat]

Thanks. It's pretty badass when you think about it. The people just wake up one day and their fortunes are gone without a trace.

[Silent_Hitman47]

Yes, I didn't know what it was either. Thanks for the thread and saving me trouble. That is pretty cool. Just wish you could see the faces of those taffers when they wake up and their expensive crap is gone.

[Sneak]

Ghost Thief Mode is a Mode of Thief play that has its own set of rules. It is an addition to the game that for sure adds to replayability and a challenge to boot. Basically it is slipping through the mission unseen and unheard from beginning to end and doing all of the objectives. No one is supposed to know you were even there or what happened to all the goods in the mission. The stuff just vanished. Is not always easy but it can be a real kick.

There are two Ghost Modes:

Ghost Thief
and
Supreme Ghost

Here are the rules for you. They do work in Thief Dark Project, Thief Gold and Thief Metal Age and have been played for years by these rules. On Deadly Shadows, well, this game is new. So we will have to see how Ghost Mode does with the new game. So that gives Ghosters something to dig into.

Ghost Mode Official Rules :
1.) Expert difficulty only. No knockouts or killing allowed at all.

2.) No damage given or taken in the final stats. Damage from falls, machinery, lava etc. is allowed but frowned upon, as is the use of potions.

3.) No alerts of any AI are allowed. This includes undead, fire elementals, spiders, bots etc, all human and non-human encounters in the game. Rats are excluded due to their lack of reaction to Garrett. Watchers that go "yellow" bust the Ghost. Bots that freeze/pivot/search bust the Ghost. If a human grumbles, shifts in place and goes back to "relaxed", you are clean.

4.) No property damage allowed, no banners cut, no things burnt or destroyed. No broken glass.

5.) No loot cheats or walkthroughs allowed. A point of honor that cannot be enforced.

6.) Doors re-shut, torches re-lit, keys returned, etc. are are not necessary unless you just want to....or the condition requires it to avoid a bust.

7.) There is no time requirement, no Ironman type requirements etc., just finish the mission clean, damage free and alert free.

8.) No alerts means no distractions, noisemakers, artificial diversions that cause an AI to search for you, even if it is away from where you are. No Garrett/artifically induced suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other. No use of frog eggs allowed.

Amendment #1 : Any mission requirement that demands that the player break one of the rules above is OK to complete. For instance, like in Return to the Cathedral in Thief Dark/Gold, there is a requirement to kill all Haunts in the mission. As long as you do this without alerting other AI or breaking any other rule, it OK, have some fun...live a little. Same will apply to any similar situation in T2.

Amendment #2 - The techniques of "Banner Transmigration" and "Nudging" are grudgingly allowed under the Ghost rules.

Amendment #3 - The use of the "Banner Transmigration" and "Nudging" techniques, as well as the use of speed, inviso, and slowfall potions are considered last resorts and should be reported when posting results. Version/release of the game should also be reported since there are sometimes significant differences in gameplay between versions.

Perfect Thief Mode is defined as completing the above requirements and also obtaining the maximum loot for the particular mission.



Supreme Ghost

Completely Unseen and Unheard

Premise:

This Thief is the absolute best there is. He is faceless, he could be anyone. No one has ever gotten a fingerprint, a footprint, not even a whiff of him. Even the Keepers are oblivious to him. He carries out his work with meticulous detail, leaves no evidence at all that he was there. He has quite a large self image but cares nothing about gaining a reputation. In fact, he wants to remain anonymous. But at the same time, he enters a mission with a heightened sense of paranoia. Nothing can go wrong, he will settle for no error or slip ups in his execution of the job. He is a Paranoid Perfectionist while working, nothing out of place or amiss when he is finished. Not even the Allusion of a Thought in anyones mind that he was there. He is also discriminating, some missions he might not take because he might leave a trail, clue or hint of something. People are wondering how these things happen or get stolen and who is doing it and how. But no one knows anything or has a clue.

Supreme Ghost Rules:

1. Expert Skill: or the highest skill level available in the mission.

2. Complete all objectives.

3. No Damage Given or Taken: No falls or incidental damage from lava, loss of health from being underwater too long, etc.

4. No Alerts of any kind from any AI or Device: No first alerts, no comments at all from AI. A single chirp from a Watcher, “Musta Been Rats…”, zombies groaning, etc are a bust. All AI and devices must remain in their normal state and not react to anything you do or initiate in the game. AI walking around and muttering to themselves or having a conversation with another AI are fine.

5. Inventory and Weapons: You can not purchase weapons and inventory items from the store at loadout. This thief doesn’t even go to the store to chance being seen and identified purchasing said items. Use nothing that would leave a trace or remnant of evidence. No Potions can be used at all. Rope Arrows and Scouting Orbs can be used but they must be retrieved.

6. No Dousing of Torches and No Moss Arrow Use is Allowed: Turning off electric lights, snuffing candles, or removing any light source including Mushrooms is also Not Allowed.

7. Put Everything Back: Doors closed and relocked if they are relockable, chests and gates closed if closable; keys returned, books/scrolls/letters returned to their original place. If items are picked off a patrolling AI, drop them back on the original patrol route or at their feet if they are a stationary AI. If the item was acquired from a niche or other similar place you can’t get it back into, drop the item on the floor below it or the nearest logical place. You cannot stack boxes to gain access to an area when your stack is on the patrol path of an AI. If it can be done in a shadowed area off a patrol path or even in direct light where no one is patrolling, that is fine. But all boxes used must be put back in their original location.

8. No Turning off of Watchers, or other Security Systems.

9. No Triggering of Traps that cause Alerts or leave evidence of a Thief’s passage.

10. No Property Damage of any kind: No Door Bashing, Banner Slashing, Crate/Barrel Breaking, Blowing up Mechs or Watchers. Lockpicking that creates infintessimal degradation of the lock mechanism is OK.

11. No Exploitation of the Dark Engine: No Nudging, Banner Transmigration, Hooking of AI with boxes, Barrel Polka Dancing or anything that takes advantage of quirks in the Thief Dark Engine for gameplay advantage.

12. No knockouts or killings of any kind allowed: whether by blackjack, gas arrows, Hammers, Maces, or any weapons or items at all, whether they show up in the stats or not. No induced melees.

13. Keep a Clean Inventory: Don’t pick up what you don’t need and return what is not usable.

14. Objectives Prevail over the Rules: If a game Objective calls for you to do something that goes against the rules, the Objectives prevail as long as you can do it with no alerts and in keeping with the other above rules. Situations such as these must be reported in the mission write-up.

15. Perfect Supreme Ghost: is defined as completion of the mission by the above rules and also getting all available loot in the mission.

16. Have Fun: and don’t take your frustrations out on this Mode’s creators, you aren’t going to win every time! In Fact, we bet you will win less.

Give Ghost a try if you like. Lots of people will Ghost a mission and then do a Report on it so others can read how it turned out.

[Arnelos]

I suppose it should be noted that the ghost rules for Thief 1 and Thief 2 are impossible in Thief 3 because AI enemies notice when loot is stolen. ;) :p

That said, you can still adhere to the spirit of ghosting. Personally, I just try to never actually be SEEN or HEARD by the AI enemies. If they notice loot is stolen or torches out, that's fine. The problem is if they notice ME. I also try to refrain from either killing or knocking out guards.

The most fun I've had thusfar with Thief 3 was pseudo-ghosting the final level against the Hag. :D

[Majnun]

Well, most (if not all) of Thief 3 IS impossible to ghost. But I don't consider the semi-alert state they go into to be breaking the ghosting rule. I thought it was if they pulled their weapon out (or were obviously on alert...not just a little) and started looking for you.

Anyway, the rules will have to be modified somewhat to come up with a set of Ghost rules that work with T-DS.

I'd be impressed if someone got through the game without using any arrows or inventory items. And without killing or KO'ing anyone (except the few you need to complete objectives). And without anyone going on a full alert (as in they saw you and are chasing you).

I'll probably give a whirl the 2nd time through. Doing the clocktower without any alerts or taking anyone out was the most fun I've had so far (except the sheer creepiness of the cradle of course).

[harishreddy]

Im ghosting the clock tower right now. Loads of fun. Most fun ive had so far.

Anyone have any ideas on getting past the guard at the top of the stairs before the poisoning b**ch's room(the one with the helm) in the first real mission? I think I ghosted that mission except I knocked out that guard. Maybe he can be sneaked past, but i didnt bother trying(still on first run through)

T3 seems to be the easiest to ghost(or at least in spirit). T1/2 were much harder IMHO. At least so far. The cathedral was also very easy. Listening to the pagans/sunken citadel people is too annoying for me to even attempt ghosting.

What the hell are "bes" and "I count you"? Yes I know what they are trying to say, but who comes up with this crap??? Designers must be doing serious drugs.

I dont think that the mansion can be ghosted... people who have played it will know the part I am reffering to.

[xarax]

You'll have to modify the rules a bit for T3. AI notice some things, but it's a not an alert in the true sense. They aren't actively searching for an intruder (you can discern their status by what they say). When they raise a weapon, or exclaim something about looking for an intruder, then you're busted.

A casual remark about a torch blown out by the wind, or a door left open is not an alert. It's just another form of grumble.

The AI notice when they're pick-pocketed, but they don't search. So, I would not count that as a bust. It's just a scripted event to improve immersion. They AI haven't detected you, which is the point of ghosting.

Also, neutral AI may know you're there and not say anything. They haven't recognized you for what you really are. So, that is not a bust either; just another face in the crowd.

[Neutrino64]

Originally posted by harishreddy
Im ghosting the clock tower right now. Loads of fun. Most fun ive had so far.

Anyone have any ideas on getting past the guard at the top of the stairs before the poisoning b**ch's room(the one with the helm) in the first real mission? I think I ghosted that mission except I knocked out that guard. Maybe he can be sneaked past, but i didnt bother trying(still on first run through)

I haven't tried it yet, but my idea was to bring a crate with me and toss it down the stairs next to that guard and then hug the wall. It might work. However, then he's going to return to his position while you go further up and it will be even harder to get past him on the way down.

[Majnun]

That would work, but I don't think it'd be ghosting. I know they pull their weapon out and go on a full search if you use a noisemaker arrow. I think they do the same if they hear a loud noise (like a crate bouncin down the steps). I might be wrong though.

Also, some versions of ghost require nothing to be moved/changed in the level (except loot you steal). In other words, if you move something you have to put it back...and reclose doors, etc. I think that's getting a little picky about it myself, but it does make it a lot more challenging.

As for the Pagans, it's a hidden clause in the developers contract. Whoever writes and voice-acts the Pagan dialogue must eat some funny little mushrooms before doing so. It does make me wanna knock them out though (the pagans, not the shroom eating dev's).

[Sneak]

Hi Xarax,
Yeah it was brought up quite a while back (more than a year and maybe two) that depending on what was thrown at us with T3, something might have to be done to the rules to cover T3 in Ghost. And there do appear to be some things alert wise to account for. From what I have seen in playing and from what you noted above, it is probably easy to remedy with some T3 exceptions.

But we have to play this game to the bone first to see if there is a way to get around the stuff skillwise. Who knows, I sure don't.........yet. I am still in Shock and Awe playing this game. :)

[Neutrino64]

Ah, I forgot you can't even distract people by throwing things. Hmm, I'm not sure then if there is a way to get past that guy. I will try it though.

Also, I keep hearing people talking about stats? I didn't notice any stats and I've beat the game. Am I just missing them?

[Sneak]

Originally posted by Neutrino64
Ah, I forgot you can't even distract people by throwing things. Hmm, I'm not sure then if there is a way to get past that guy. I will try it though.

Also, I keep hearing people talking about stats? I didn't notice any stats and I've beat the game. Am I just missing them?

Yeah,
At the end of a mission you can display your stats. The selection is one of those tiles on the right side of your screen. Not for sure at the moment but it might be right under the Debriefing tile.

[Neutrino64]

Originally posted by Sneak
Yeah,
At the end of a mission you can display your stats. The selection is one of those tiles on the right side of your screen. Not for sure at the moment but it might be right under the Debriefing tile.


Hehe, oops. I never even saw it there. I must be going blind.

[harishreddy]

Originally posted by xarax
You'll have to modify the rules a bit for T3. AI notice some things, but it's a not an alert in the true sense. They aren't actively searching for an intruder (you can discern their status by what they say). When they raise a weapon, or exclaim something about looking for an intruder, then you're busted.

A casual remark about a torch blown out by the wind, or a door left open is not an alert. It's just another form of grumble.

The AI notice when they're pick-pocketed, but they don't search. So, I would not count that as a bust. It's just a scripted event to improve immersion. They AI haven't detected you, which is the point of ghosting.

Also, neutral AI may know you're there and not say anything. They haven't recognized you for what you really are. So, that is not a bust either; just another face in the crowd.

I can live the guards hearing noises as long as they dont go on alert. I dont think(havent really tried it out though) that it is possible in T3 to do otherwise. Throwing crates is definately a no no. So is using arrows potions etc. I have used some(its my first go) and of course ive used arrows in city mode to up my faction ratings.

The game(T3) is way too easy if your going to douse lights and throw moss arrows. Let alone if you are going to kill/knock out people. T2 was much more challenging.

Notice how finding secret buttons was pretty close to perfectly implemented in T2(best ive ever seen in a video game..and Ive been playing computer games for a long time; played the original wizardry when it came out), its a joke in T3. So is finding loot. Ive only done less than 90-100% once so far. There is no way I could get those numbers in T2 in my first run through, unless i knocked out everyone to find where stuff was(thats close to cheating too)

[MrWynd]

man thats crazy. i have a hard enough time getting through the missions when I do knock a lot of em out!

[harishreddy]

Originally posted by MrWynd
man thats crazy. i have a hard enough time getting through the missions when I do knock a lot of em out!

I also probably take 5 times as long as you to complete each mission.

I sat in 1 spot for ages(10-20 minutes) on one mission waiting for two guards to settle down(go back to their normal pattern)(they hadnt heard or seen me, might have just been missing loot). I talked on the phone, had a smoke, eventually I gave up and doused a light. Ill do better next time around. I have to say that it is a really irritating level too(citadel) kinda spooky though.

Try sneaking. After you get the hang of it, you will realize that is way more fun to play this way. Especially the first time when you dont know whats around the next corner or where you have to go. Once you know the layout(eg second run) there is no tension anymore, it just becomes a matter of pride to ghost through.

P.S. you have to try ghosting on games like Hitman 2. That is the deal. No stealth meter, few dark spots.

[Inquisitor]

I usually play each mission through, killing and knocking out who I need to just to get a feel for the mission, then I go back and ghost it. That is to say, all loot, no torches or candle snuffed, no arrows fired, no enemies killed or knocked out etc. etc.

I haven't tried this on TDS, only the first level in the demo. It is very hard on that level, especially when you have to go up to Lady Elizebeth's bedroom. There's a guard facing the doorway who you have to go past. I had to use a noisemaker arrow to get past him, and another one to get back out of the bedroom.

[harishreddy]

Originally posted by Inquisitor
I usually play each mission through, killing and knocking out who I need to just to get a feel for the mission, then I go back and ghost it. That is to say, all loot, no torches or candle snuffed, no arrows fired, no enemies killed or knocked out etc. etc.

I haven't tried this on TDS, only the first level in the demo. It is very hard on that level, especially when you have to go up to Lady Elizebeth's bedroom. There's a guard facing the doorway who you have to go past. I had to use a noisemaker arrow to get past him, and another one to get back out of the bedroom.

Thats basically what I do the first run through. I try and keep things to absolute minimum + I dont kill myself to find all the loot. I really dont like using arrows or potions though. I used 2 moss + 1 water + 2 KOs on the sunken citadel... I still feel bad about the moss cause i could have worked around it. Dunno about 1 of the KOs though(not if I want 100% loot anyway). The other I can work around. Hard to have patience with the pagan levels though, the speech is too damn irritating.

I knocked out the guy guarding elizabeths room... there has to be a better way though. I suppose he can always be lured away, but thats kinda cheap. With the torch(I think it was a torch) doused, 1) he would probably wander 2) he could probably be crept around.

edit: there was a third KO(citadel) but it was completely unneeded.. the crate had no loot only items.. I could probably pick it faster if i needed too.

[VoidHawk]

Originally posted by harishreddy
I knocked out the guy guarding elizabeths room... there has to be a better way though. I suppose he can always be lured away, but thats kinda cheap. With the torch(I think it was a torch) doused, 1) he would probably wander 2) he could probably be crept around.



Threw a chunk of cheese past him then dived in the room. Hid till he went back to his post then picked the lock, cleared the room out. Getting him to go into the room so I could get out again was harder.

Just finished the Pagan level, so far only 2 water torches used, never been seen and not taken anyone out. But it does take forever :)

[Krux0r]

When I went up the stairs, he was walking down. When I was leaving the bedroom though, he was just standing there :/

I tossed a flashbomb.. I know, that definatly busts the ghost, but it didn't effect my stats so I kept it. Besides, it was pretty funny :p "My eyes! I can't..seeee!"

I'm thinking that for my own personal enjoyment (that is the purpose) I'm just going to go by the stats. If they think they hear a noise, but find nothing and say "must have been rats" well thats good enough for me. So my ghosting is a cheap/easier "Can't get caught" type of ghosting. They can't say "I see you thief" they can't be sure someone was really there. No knockouts, no kills, and 100% Loot.

I'm not far into it, but I'm having a blast. It's almost as good as the first thief, and better than the second IMO.



Was anyone else annoyed like hell that they lump in the training missions stats into your total?? You *HAVE* to Blackjack, and you *HAVE* to get caught! Heh, I know spoilers about the training mission is dumb, but it sets a precident. I'd like to read this kind of thread without learning too much about the higher levels.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Krux0r
When I went up the stairs, he was walking down. When I was leaving the bedroom though, he was just standing there :/

I had the same problem. I don't consider taking that guard out to be against ghosting rules because it is essentially a requirement.