Cradle, scariest level?

[Kysh Lavality]

Hello!

(bows)

New to the board, but not new to this series. Played Thief one and Thief two, and NEVER encountered a level that sent chill's up and down my spine

That orphine house... *shivers* man the developers out did themselves in this place, no game has EVER caused me to get scared and fear the next turn that there might be a zombie or a staff member there.

Whoever thought up of this level had a very active imagination, impressive, wish other company's followed that dev's example

But what about the rest of you? Did you find Cradle to be scary? Or was there some other level that you deemed scarier?

The thing I liked after getting out and following the ghost was how EVERYONE took one look at the ghost and high tailed it out of town.

"Hey Whats that, whoa boy maybe I better not. Help!" - Guard who encounters the ghost

"Don't kill me you wreched thing!" - Hammeritt when the ghost enter's the fort

"......" - Zombie's and dead walking Hammeritts, they don't fear the thing at all

"AHHHHHHHHHH!!!" - Civilian who spot's the ghost, this guy's going to need a change in shorts when he get's home... if he ever get's down from the top of the church that is

"Thou shall fight.... on second thought thou shall run!" - Keeper Enforcer (I was told they weren't around when the ghost was here.. but evidently they where, geez and I thought I killed em all!)

[Arnelos]

This is hardly the first thread on this very subject. I think that provides you with your answer. ;)

Seriously, A LOT of us have said that the Cradle level is not merely spectacular, but probably the best creep-value level of any game we remember playing. For me personally, as I've also stated elsewhere, it actually surpasses the creep-value of System Shock 2, which is the GAME that previously creeped me out most at the time I first played it.

The thing I love about the Cradle level (and I presume the genius of its design) is that it uses your Thief training against you. Specifically:

You've been trained across three Thief games to sneak around slowly in the dark and listen very carefully to noises. In this level, moving slowly and being on alert for any noise only serves to uselessly scare the crap out of you. The Thief games also train you to think of yourself as the nocturnal predator hunting in his unwary prey. The Cradle level turns this entire mindset upside down and makes you feel intensely uncomfortable for being the PREY with an uncanny sense of your lack of safety. The Thief games have also trained you to use enemies as mental and literal landmarks and goal posts. You get so accustomed to watching and listening to the movements of your opponents and working a strategy around it that doing so becomes quite comfortable... the experience of not having any of those goal posts or landmarks can be quite disorienting.

So the result is that all of that Thief training ends you have works AGAINST you - largely only serving to scare you more than you'd otherwise be scared (due to different behavior and outlook).

Quite an ingenious level. :)

[ringo380]

Yes, by far, the scariest videogame experience I've had. I think, as technology gets better, better horror games/missions within games are going to show up, with some really scary ****. This Cradle mission just proves to me that games can be a hell of a lot scarier than I ever thought they could.

I'm hoping Doom 3 has a similar impression on me.

And yes, Cradle is the only truly scary map. There are a few other creepy experiences, but they're nothing compared to it. The museum would actually probably be next up in scariness, I'm not sure why. Probably the fact that I thought I would see the hag somewhere (and I didn't know what the in-game hag would look like at that point), and the weird paintings and sound effects. The power going off and on alone was a really great effect.

[Pesmerga]

the zombies in this game freak me out. they move fast, not the sissy resident evil type zomebies, but dawn of the dead type fast. and i dont have a gun to pop their heads open.

but as for the orphanage zone, i was playing it at night getting ready for bed. so i was just fooling around running ahead checking stuff out shooting arrows everywhere (figured its deserted). heard something behind me turned around and this thing leaps at me. scared the living Sh** out of me. and i've played every silent hill without getting that freaked out. this stage totally blew that game away. usually i'm one to turn out all the lights while i go through the zone, but this was the first time i was thankful that the lights were finally on :D

[Innocent Blood]

http://www.pifiu.com/upload/uploads/032004/icon_eek.gif I don't feel like going any further now...

[MajorHealy]

Holy crap - just got to the Cradle, and I didn't have a single, solitary creepy moment until now. I figured you guys were a bunch of wusses, since the scariest thing I'd seen to this point was the Fort "catacombs", and they were barely even creepy.

However,

I was crouch-walking up the stairs to the Staff Tower (I think), and I heard this ungodly loud sound of someone beating on a wooden door (presumably at the top of the stairs). It was so loud I jumped. It finally stopped, so I started creeping forward again - then again, more clearly as I ascended the stairs - BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM! Scared the crap out of me --- up to this point it was just creepy noises - nothing really physical sounding.

Figured it was time to save and quit at that point. Never been so freakin' scared at 10am. So I figure I'll wait and finish up tonight after dark ;)

You guys are spot on so far - the Cradle is definitely a creep-fest - I never had to stop playing Thief 1/2 like this...

[Innocent Blood]

http://www.pifiu.com/upload/uploads/032004/icon_eek.gif I don't feel like going further and I'm not even on the level. http://www.pifiu.com/upload/uploads/032004/icon_eek.gif

[Adf The Thief]

You bet your astoroid kid. that damn level is so scary,

The first when i came i heard those noises in the basement, that was a little scary then at the ground floor when there is some footstep and door opening sounds okay even more scary, but then the BAM BAM BAM on the door, i did jump up at my chair. then when she came, what a choke. but when i saw the First Zombie i was so ****ing scary, even more when it attacked me. I didnt think that it was so fast so suddenly i did have 2 zombies after, i ran in hide and quited the game.

I can not even go on with the game now. Way to scary.

Edit: okay i camer a LITTLE longer... Anyone know how to make them so stupid they cant see me? i already tried to edit the AI in ini files, not working

Or anyone know how to Kill the Zombies For ever?? cause they wake up 10 sec after.. :/

[dracul72]

I thought Undying was the scariest game I ever played.... But this mission made me p my pants! And I was playing it in the afternoon, don't want to know what would have happend if I had played this during the night :)

[Innocent Blood]

To kill the flippin' Zombies, throw 2 flash bombs. They will fall down and die, then "dust" Buffy style.

[Quillan]

The patients in this are a little tougher than the regular zombies encountered to this point. It takes two flash bombs to kill one if you catch them suprised, or two flasks of holy water. It takes four flash bombs or three holy water if they are already hunting you specifically. Someone came up with a good idea, throw a flask of holy water on the floor, and get them to run through it a few times chasing you. Also, they don't dissolve like the regular zombies did, but I haven't seen one get up after flash bombinb/holy watering them down, and I stood over one for about 5 minutes hitting it with the dagger as a test.

Personally, I think I was more scared playing the Return to the Cathedral mission in the first Thief game, but that was 4 years ago. This one is EXTREMELY well done, and my hat is off to the level designers for it.

[Innocent Blood]

Ah hell, the S---s hit the fan now. No way Im getting past that. T.T

[Adf The Thief]

Finally i Pushed my self so hard that i am where:

You have to use the Cerum on the Blood Stain, i am in the past.

But where is that?

[TheOriginalNobody]

Oh dear god.

The way people talk about this level makes me not want to buy the game... Wait, what am I saying? Of course I do. But then again, I never got past the first marine mission in Aliens VS Predator because I was so scared. I know, I am a wuss. I shall desensitize myself prior to playing the game by constant watching of Alien. Or maybe not.

[ringo380]

You might want to watch "House on Haunted Hill" rather than Alien. It's a bit of a cheesy movie, but it'll prep you better for what's to come on the Shalebridge mission. It seems like alot of that mission was very influenced by the movie, from the spastic movements of the mental patients, to the various mental hospital atmosphere aspects and "torture" rooms.

As cheesy as the movie can be sometimes, it's actually got some really cool innovative new horror concepts. The scene with the video camera rocked me.

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Adf The Thief
Finally i Pushed my self so hard that i am where:

You have to use the Cerum on the Blood Stain, i am in the past.

But where is that?

Cerum is in the treatment rooms guarded by one of the staff (it's hard to get it w/o being noticed). The blood stain is in the attic.

[van_HellSing PL]

Just to let everyone know who to praise, the mastermind behind Shalebridge is Jordan 'Null' Thomas, T: DS lead designer. :)

Here's a quote:That [scaring the player] was my intent with the mission, from its inception.

It won't work for every player, but it was designed to touch on as many potential fear buttons as possible in the player's mind without being prohibitively difficult.

If I have my druthers, one day in the not-too-distant future I'll be building an entire game around those tenets.

Glad you enjoyed it.

[ringo380]

That mission is a work of art, the guy needs to get an award or something.

[Arnelos]

For those inclined to be too creeped out, I will offer this advice:

This level uses your Thief training against you. All of that training you have to creep around in the shadows and listen for every little sound will only serve to uselessly scare you for about 80% worth of the level. The training you have to use patrolling guards as something like goal posts or mile posts on your journey will end up merely disorienting you in this mission.

My advice, if you really would otherwise have trouble, would honestly be to forget your Thief training and just go flying about the place willy nilly. There are very few enemies in the whole place (part of why it's scary... you have no idea where they are and the rest of the place is eerily empty) and the ones that exist can easily be killed with flash bombs, fire arrows, and holy water. If one of them sees you before you see it, it'll probably scare the crap out of you, but you can just quickload and then sneak up to kill it.

There's also something else that will help you make it less scary, but please don't see this spoiler unless you REALLY need the help with not being scared... it'll ruin the first half of the mission:

There are no enemies in the entire "Outer Cradle". All of the sounds you hear are merely to scare you - nothing can hurt you in this section of the level. The knocking sound coming from the Attic is something you need to check out and might scare you even if you DO know nothing will harm you, but will not actually harm you. Be calm - have no fear - you will not come to harm. ;)

Your Thief training works against you in the "Outer Cradle" largely because you've been trained to creep around slowly in the dark. Doing so in this level (at least BEFORE the transformation) will merely make it take longer and leave you casting about at every creepy sound merely worked into the background noise track. Just run around if that makes things easier on you - it doesn't matter. The only sound of actual significance is the knocking sound from the Attic. Once you progress out of the "Outer Cradle" into the "Inner Cradle", however, you are no longer safe - the zombies will come charging at you if they detect you - you will need your Thief training again. When you RETURN to the "Outer Cradle" after the level has been transformed, you will also need your Thief training because new enemies will exist that were not there previously - but thankfully not the zombies.

All of the special zombie creatures are in the "Inner Cradle". I thought there were only four of them, but one other person has claimed that there are six. This is likely a function of difficulty level. Most of the zombies are in the White Hall and the Treatment rooms and there is one in the Morgue. If you approach these areas, slow down and ready your zombie-killing weaponry. To avoid having to sneak about while worrying about being caught by the zombies, just kill them first if you spending the amunition is enough to keep yourself from being scared.

When you are at the point in the plot that you make the transition of the level (I won't elaborate on that, even in this spoiler), things get far less scary (at least for me). Sure, the place is rather creepy LOOKING, but your Thief training will now HELP YOU AGAIN rather than work against you. After a lengthy experience of your training working against you and the level design purposely being made to disorient you, the transformed Cradle actually feels much more comfortable. ;)


If you really want to ruin the first half of level, but make things less creepy for yourself, read the above.

[MajorHealy]

Originally posted by Arnelos
The knocking sound coming from the Attic is something you need to check out and might scare you even if you DO know nothing will harm you, but will not actually harm you.

Hilarious, but a spoiler:

when I finally got up the nerve to open the door and saw the interior of the attic, the knocking was STILL THERE (I was expecting something really creepy like a whacked-out crazy woman or a messed-up kid on the other side of the door) ... so I was thinking "ah, crap, there's another room up here" ... so I finally got the nerve to go through, and I got a New Note and the knocking stopped. The Note said something like "You heard a knocking sound in the attic".

NO S*** - REALLY??? You mean, there was a *knocking* in the room that took me 10 minutes to go through because I nearly soiled myself??? :) I had to laugh at how scared I was over nothing...

RE: Originally posted by ringo380I'm hoping Doom 3 has a similar impression on me.

I'm thinking that Thief is much scarier than Doom3 will be, simply because, as Arnelos and others have said, the way you have to approach Thief requires you to avoid confrontation and be witness to all the scary stuff. Whereas Doom and its ilk favors blowing the crap out of anything that moves, thus avoiding a lot of buildup and tension.

Of course, Half Life (and even the original Doom) had some times where a monster popped out of nowhere and startled the crap out of me, but such fear normally caused me to empty my ammo out onto the offender. In Thief, I end up turning (usually in the wrong direction) and running like hell, often with still-disastrous results...

[Innocent Blood]

Any FPS can scare the crap outta you. Just turn a corner and come face to face with an enemy. Startles you REALLY bad.

[A_Wretched_Creature]

Find a Fuse? Turn on Lights? I don't think so!!! No way! Can't get into lockdown!??? Oh well, I guess I got to! But I don't want to!!!!!:eek:

Could not sleep for 4 hours after this one!!!! Null, must be nucking futs to have thought this up! Really likes the old horror movies eh....

[Dryzzt]

I experienced the "Cradle" level to be the scariest one in the game, and it left me with a very-glad-it-is-finally-over-feeling. The problem (or reason to be scared) was that, for the only time in the game, I felt that I am not in control of the events. Somebody mentioned feeling no more like the hunter but like the prey, and that's quite precisely why it felt scary to me. What really got me feeling itchy was that the ghost sent be back and forth through the level to perform ever more tasks, and with each new one I thought *damn*. It rather reminds me of The Dark Project, where the novice master's ghost sends you running up and down in a similar manner.

Speaking in terms of the game AI: I found The Cradle to be unpleasant because the enemy AI seemed to follow a "sense, pursue, rip apart" strategy without any care for the enemy/monster itself. This is stuff which each of us probably knows from nightmares. I find it easier - and more pleasant - to cope with the "human" enemy AI, i.e. City Watch, Thugs, Hammerites, etc., especially some odd conversations like the City Watch member with unpleasant and embarassing injury... These are guys you can relate to. They might pick their nose or perhaps fart - just be human. :) This human touch makes me blackjack them instead of killing them. It is a question of honor not to inhume a poor, dumb and vocabularily challenged guard (with cold feet and stained underwear, probably). :D

By the way: I thought that maybe the level designer was inspired by the "Asylum" level in the last game of Tomb Raider series? I *hate* mindless, murderous loonies. ;)

[Byle]

Abso****inglutely!
Playing in the middle of the night, headphones on, without anything to eat.. absolutely the best gaming experience by far :D
those creators should get an oscar or smth :D
the mood was so depressing and everything, i just luv it <3

[dasein1]

What I thought made it scary was the fact that, for the outer cradle, there isn't anything there. The whole rest of the game, you're running into regular enemies, and having to hide. The whole outer cradle, I kept hearing noises like something was right around the corner or something. It kept me constantly in suspense, but nothing ever came. It was unnerving. Then, I go to the inner cradle. I'm wandering around, and I'm just starting to think- ok, so there isn't anything in this level. Pretty interesting choice. Really suspenseful, but there's nothing there. I'll just relax. Then, I round a corner, and I see, in the distance, the outline of a human form move quickly across the room. THAT scared me.

[unnamednewbie13]

And here I thought Karras, his statues and his ugly-arsed robots were creepy.

[herechickychicky]

Originally posted by ringo380
You might want to watch "House on Haunted Hill" rather than Alien. It's a bit of a cheesy movie, but it'll prep you better for what's to come on the Shalebridge mission. It seems like alot of that mission was very influenced by the movie, from the spastic movements of the mental patients, to the various mental hospital atmosphere aspects and "torture" rooms.

As cheesy as the movie can be sometimes, it's actually got some really cool innovative new horror concepts. The scene with the video camera rocked me.

That is exactly the movie I was thinking of when I entered this mission and saw some of the stuff in there. The violent shaking of the patients in particular. Those patients scared me more than anything I have seen in a video game, especially when I FIRST saw the one run across the doorway before you enter White Hall. And the one that was banging on the ground where the wax mask was, so very creepy.

[wvmayor]

Was enjoying the game until this. Zombies and undead is what I HATED about 1 & 2. Hoped EIDOS would make the game without the horror element. Too disturbing to be fun.

Couple this with the relentless loading from zone to zone and having to continually make my way across each zone, and I got bored.

I shrugged my shoulders, uninstalled the game and placed it up for sale on Amazon without finishing. Oh well..

M

[Biscram]

Originally posted by wvmayor
Was enjoying the game until this. Zombies and undead is what I HATED about 1 & 2. Hoped EIDOS would make the game without the horror element. Too disturbing to be fun.

Couple this with the relentless loading from zone to zone and having to continually make my way across each zone, and I got bored.

I shrugged my shoulders, uninstalled the game and placed it up for sale on Amazon without finishing. Oh well..

M

Sounds like you have your own issues rather than the game having them. Grow a backbone maybe :rolleyes:

Personally the scariest thing was the silent way the monsters ran after you with only their footsteps behind me, incredible!

[herechickychicky]

While it is true this mission is not for the faint of heart and can be VERY tense and scary, damn it took me three days to get through this one mission, I don't think it isn't worth keeping. This is a great game and finishing it is definitely worth it.

[eXz]

anyone else thinks that the zombies and the unnatural stuff
ruins the game? why cant it only be real.
after all... i still love the series.

[ringo380]

I've mentioned this in a couple of other threads, but I think the use of supernatural elements in the Cradle mission is very validated by the fact that it was extremely well thought-out, and like I mentioned before, it actually IS a relatively (keep in mind I use the word relatively :P) realistic theme, assuming you even have an inkling of belief in the possibility of supernatural circumstances.

[Relicc]

what did you think of the abysmal gale, yea it was pretty short. It had zombies too.

[BOB_E]

The reason why I didnt like the Cradle mission, is that it is the longest out of the very few in number missions and it had no thief element to it. Unless you avoided every single patient, which is nearly impossible because of the whole toy thing and 4 of em' are in one area, there is no theif aspect. If you think about it, you cant blackjack them, and if you backstab them, they get up when you have to walk by them, so end up killing them by means of throwing holy water, flashbangs, or firearrows.

If you ask me, throwing holy water, shooting firearrows, and using flashbangs to kill things is not a thief element, but rather a Rambo element. I liked the whole Glyph stuff as it added a plot and twist to the game. But when you add in a level like this, it is a mockery of what the game should be. As I have said in previous threads, you are a master thief...not a holy crusader smiting undead throught the city.

People buy theif so they can play a game where you infiltrate, loot, complete objectives, escape. Not so you infiltrate, get spoked by unrealistic and just plain stupid background noises, do errands for a girl who barely even thanks you, have to destroy unrealistic and disturbing undead, then jump out a window 7 storys high and live to tell the tale. People who want to be spooked, buy games like Resident Evil (which isn't even really that scary), Silent Hill, Manhunt, etc. People who want to have an actual, realistic feeling of a thief, buy the game Thief. So why add this Cradle level which so dredfully mocks the meaning of the Thief series?

[ringo380]

The reason why I didnt like the Cradle mission, is that it is the longest out of the very few in number missions and it had no thief element to it. Unless you avoided every single patient, which is nearly impossible because of the whole toy thing and 4 of em' are in one area, there is no theif aspect. If you think about it, you cant blackjack them, and if you backstab them, they get up when you have to walk by them, so end up killing them by means of throwing holy water, flashbangs, or firearrows

I seemed to get through the entire thing without having to permanently kill any of the patients, and without getting detected by the employees. They're all just as easy to hide from as any typical civilian or guard, just a little (a lot) scarier. I'll make one admission that should not be mistaken for any remote dislike for the level: The last 5 minutes were a bit tedious because of the amount of time you were forced to spend avoiding the employees. This small complaint was completely shot out of a cannon into a brick wall at point blank range by the quality and enjoyment of the rest of the mission.

People buy theif so they can play a game where you infiltrate, loot, complete objectives, escape.

I buy Thief because it's fun.

Not so you infiltrate, get spoked by unrealistic and just plain stupid background noises, do errands for a girl who barely even thanks you, have to destroy unrealistic and disturbing undead, then jump out a window 7 storys high and live to tell the tale.

I'm not sure where the sound complaint came from, because I could not find a single sound effect - ESPECIALLY in the cradle mission - that I had any problem with whatsoever, and they were all quite realistic. And calling the undead disturbing should be a compliment and a testament to how well they were designed.

Regarding the jump from the window: I've heard this mentioned before, and honestly I'm usually the first to be skeptical about these things, but considering what was taking place in the mission, it seemed like a logical explanation. You're not in a reality, made obvious by the fact that you're able to travel through "memories" of time periods in the cradle's existence, so it seemed just about on par with all the rest of the wierd events that I would be able to escape simply by jumping out of the Cradle's "mind", or whatever it is. It would've been out-of-place if you had to jump out the window to escape before you had done any of the "going into the past" parts, but as it is, the mission gradually increases the amount of supernatural fantasy that's occuring so that nothing feels too unbelievable, even though much if it is obviously impossible.

People who want to be spooked, buy games like Resident Evil (which isn't even really that scary), Silent Hill, Manhunt, etc. People who want to have an actual, realistic feeling of a thief, buy the game Thief. So why add this Cradle level which so dredfully mocks the meaning of the Thief series?

I'm not sure what Thief games you've been playing, but they've all had a pretty horror/gothic-oriented design. Yes, I have a very pro-realism opinion towards the Thief series, as I've posted many times, and I'd like to see realistic missions be a much larger part of the game (I made an exception for the Cradle, for reasons I mentioned above), but as it is, you're saying that Thief is something that it's not, and that it somehow has to live up to that thing that it isn't, which makes no sense whatsoever. It's always had a horror element, so there's no mockeries to be made here.

Bleh.

[Relicc]

unrealistic undead eh? So how many undead have you encountered?

[card]

i don't get what's so scarry about that level. i waited all day for night to come, so i could play it in the dark, with headphones, high volume and the cat guarding my back, and i didn't get anything that good. two parts actually made me jump a little but no big thing. i really had hopes for this level..:( oh well

[herechickychicky]

There's always an exception to every rule.

[BOB_E]

I was a little ticked off about the level before, for some reason, I just think it is o-so-fake. But now Iv cooled a lilttle. Refering to it as a "mockery" was just dumb in my case, becuase I dont even use that word, it was just a better way of saying...something...because of the Iron Claw thing or whatever they have enacted. Personally, Ringo, i would rather kill the things, because I would hate to be a mental patient patroling around for centuries in a building, so I think the right thing to do would be to end their exsistance. I also buy thief because it is fun, probably the most fun of any game out there, and Thief will always have that title in my book. I just think that the whole stealthy infiltrating, getting loot, and what not is what enticed most people, or maybe that was just me (it was that type of enticment when T1 came out, because I had no idea that there were going to be undead levels and what not). The horror aspect and supernatural aspect adds to the game considerably, I completely agree with that. I was just angry that they made the largest level doing errands for a girl with added horror aspects. Yes, I also agree that the background noises SOUNDED realistic, but sure as hell werent realistic, as it would have been nice (and a hell of a lot spookier) to find out what made the noises when you complete the level or something. Just hearing Lauryl say that the Cradle itself makes the nosises would send shivers up my spine. But without something like that, they just seem fake, and after the attic, I just sort of ignored the noises, as nothing had poped out of nowhere and it is easy to realize that nothing will be in that part of the level, but I had a huge feeling something would in the next part. Would have been scarier if you had one of the patients follow you out of the attic (they did blame the death of Lauryl on a patient, so they must have had easy access to the attic). And for the 7 story window thing, if you are in the past and falling that amount wouldnt hurt you, arent the guards in the past as well? But somehow the guards can still hurt you but falling cant. Thats the main part I dont get. I am not implying that Thief has to live up to my standards...but in your post before about SC : PT being fantastic and T3 being above average, you said "I am the rule-maker of this" and that "anyone who disagrees with me is wrong". Sounds like you also have said Thief is something that it is not. Either way, I think the horror aspect adds a lot to the game, but the asylum level left players with questions. A hell of a lot of questions. With all these questions, I cant see myslef saying the Cradle is very real...but rather very fake.

[r1cht3r]

House on Haunted Hill most definitely. Thats one of the first things that went through my mind as I first entered. I said "Welcome to Hill House" and my girlfriend looked at me funny. :P I agree, scary place. I'm so used to being a ghost's shadow that all of this creepiness is almost too much. I have to keep reminding myself that Garret has ice water in his veins and I have to stop being a wussy so I don't let him down :O