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The Warrior Servant
03-02-2004, 12:30 AM
Recently while re-playing BO2, I caught a glimpse of a curious detail behind the Sarafan Lord head on top of the Sarafan keep during the FMV when Kain first re-meets the Sarafan Lord. What caught my attention was a moon, and it made me start to postulate a supposition. I replayed the level and acquired a screen shot of that moon and then acquiring a digital photo of our moon I did a comparison and proved my supposition correct, that the moon of Nosgoth and the Earth’s moon is one and the same. This is shown by looking at the Maria (any of various darkish level areas on the moon) and comparing Nosgoth’s moon to ours there is a one-to-one match of Maria. Indeed Mare Chisium, Mare Tranquillitatus, and Mare Frigoris (for example) are all quite visible on the Nosgoth moon.

Now, the features of any planetoid is routed in its creation and its evolution over its life, so the probability a planetoid would have developed and evolved (by which I refer to the variables in the creation process as well as the variables in the impact of collisions with other celestial matter) in the same way is very, very, very remote. Indeed there is a higher probability that while relieving yourself one day, you urinate out a purple fully grown bull African elephant wearing a pink and white striped tutu holding up an umbrella and asking “is this the way to Coorhagen” in a Brooklyn accent, than what there is of two planetoids developing the same features. Hence Nosgoth’s moon must be our moon and there for Nosgoth must be located on Earth.

Now in our last (lets say) 600 years of cartographical endeavours, Humanity has mapped virtually every place on this planet, or at least mapped every continental landmass which Nosgoth (given its size) would inhabit. However we find no Nosgoth on our maps, which leads us into the development of theories surrounding the nature of this landmass.



I would hence like to propose that Nosgoth be in Earth’s distant future in a time where our societies have been wiped out by some cataclysmic event. The Earth, its landmasses and its animal/vegetable life would have to evolve to satisfy the new conditions. Now, some survivors of the Human may have already had necessarily attributes in order to survive in their new local environment hence the reason we find Humans in Nosgoth. Other Human survivors however may have needed to adapt to their local environments (requiring wings, etc) spawning the Ancient race. An off shoot of this race then could have moved to new environments hence evolving into the Hylden. Now, I’m not sure if the evolution was like this or whether Ancients are an off shoot of Hylden or whether they’re both off shoots from some other generic species, but suffice to say Humans, Vampire, and Hylden could all share a quite similar genome. To support this look at the Humans’ ability to become Vampires, this could only be done if they had quite similar genetics, further more I'll sight the example of the Seer from BO2 who not only has very Hylden traits but also very Vampire traits indicating she is a hybrid, hence showing that Hylden and Vampire have similar genetics. Hence they are all different divisions of the same species.

Now I can’t remember who originally coined this phrase (I believe it was a famous Sci-fi writer) but what they said is thus, “Given enough time all technology will seem like magic.” (Which is true if you think about for instance how a computer illiterate person views a computer.) This could explain the magic occurrences in Nosgoth. Indeed it would seem that the races have a tendency for different kinds of technological endeavours. The Hylden, with their development of the vampire curse and the Mass indicate a preference to the biological sciences, while the Ancients with the development of the Pillars and the Reaver indicate their preference for the mechanical sciences. Both capable of great feets of magic routed in technological science.

As for the elder god, I can only speculate to its nature. Perhaps it has always existed on Earth and was the manifestation that current religions worship. Alternately it could be a space born parasite that caused the cataclysmic event. It could even be a final by product of today’s biological manipulation endeavours. Your speculation is as good as mine.



An alternative theory to the location of Nosgoth is that it is on Earth but exists on an alternate dimensional plane to us, ie. In our distant past our Earth evolved in one direction, while their Earth evolved in another. This would explain the features of the Nosgoth moon being the same as ours, while explaining the deviations between our Earth and Nosgoth’s. Further more this idea of alternate dimensional planes is strengthened by the concept of the Hylden banishment to a demon dimension, as well as Azimuth’s ability to bring in creatures from other dimensions to Nosgoth. (Hey, if this alternate dimension theory is correct, I wonder if Azimuth visited us. Maybe she brought lawyers or even worse Microsoft back to terrorise Nosgoth.)

There is a major problem with this theory in that the probability that Humans could evolve on two different Earth’s is quite remote (as about as remote as two different moons developing the same features.) Even if the split in the Earth’s evolution were made during the early times of Humans, there would not be enough time to produce the deviations of Ancient or Hylden (we would see evidence of their possible evolution on our Earth, which we don’t.) There For I find the prior theory to be more plausible.



(Alternately, Nosgoth is not on Earth. All the CD production team wanted was a shot of a moon and where to lazy to create one so they just stuck a shot of our moon in the game. BUT REALLY WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF THAT.)


In conclusion, shown by the example of the moon and so forth, I now come back to my original claim that Nosgoth IS on Earth!



(PS. if any one can tell me how you put images in a post, I’ll include the comparison images of the moon.)

mortaniusgod
03-02-2004, 05:04 AM
dude, you really, REALLY need to get off your computer for a while.

bish
03-02-2004, 06:36 AM
OR...

nosgoth is made up, and they have a moon that looks like ours because the creators of the game copied a picture of earth's moon. just to save them the trouble of having to create a new moon and naming all the craters in it...

and if you've already worte that, then this post is pointless. your post was way to long to read, so i didn't.

bish

Umah Bloodomen
03-02-2004, 09:02 AM
If you don't have anything constructive to contribute to what The Warrior Servant has put forth, then perhaps it may be a good idea not to contribute to it at all.

Thanks. :)

LOK kain is the greatest
03-02-2004, 12:58 PM
That’s some good theorizing warrior servant. You seem to be really interested in this, Who knows you may be right. There story may be set on earth but I don’t think you will find Nosgoth anytime soon unless something was going to happen in our future (i.e. nuclear holocaust) that changed that and made Nosgoth a possibility.

For now I would keep you head on playing the game. Not where the place might be

Luv KITG

WraithStar
03-02-2004, 01:58 PM
I noticed the moon shot myself, but didn't bother with explaining all this. Very well put forth:) . I'm pretty sure that your quote about advanced technology seeming like magic was said by Arthur C. Clarke. Maybe you're looking in the wrong direction for Nosgoth's location. Maybe Nosgoth was in the past and when the Elder God was destroyed (I assume Kain will triumph in the end) he somehow obliterated all traces of Ancients and Hylden:p . It seems rather far-fetched that we wouldn't find some traces of Nosgoth if that happened, but a lot of people believe in Atlantis or some similar myth, so maybe... (By the way, I'm only serious if it's true;) )

LOKFan
03-02-2004, 02:33 PM
Did any of you notice that Defiance's moon (seen at the start when Kain arrives at the Stronghold is a completely different looking moon?

3pwud
03-03-2004, 04:28 AM
Yes, I did :) Therefore I put the theory down to co-incidence about having a similar moon. The thoughts, albeit brief ones, swam through my mind as I casually glanced at the moons.

Kains_Queen
03-03-2004, 04:53 AM
My thoughts when I played BO2 was 'Oh cool! they decided to use our moon in the game' :D can't say I thought that Nosgoth is real.....

*Dashes off to play Defiance and compare moons* :D

Zephon
03-03-2004, 08:29 AM
noticed the egyption ankh (symbol of life) is nearly identical to the sarafan sign?

3pwud
03-03-2004, 08:41 AM
Yes, and that Umah had the same symbol on her boots...

The Warrior Servant
03-03-2004, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by LOKFan
Did any of you notice that Defiance's moon (seen at the start when Kain arrives at the Stronghold is a completely different looking moon?

After viewing this post I went back to Defiance to study its moon, and I can quite positively state that

The moon in Defiance, although slightly obscured by cloud, is our moon.

It has been rotated to give a view centered on Mare Imbrium, but none the less the general patterns of the shores of the Maria and non-Maria are still present. Mare Serenitatis is especially visible in the top part of Defiance’s moon just right of the vertical central geodesic line.

All that people need to do is 3 dimensional geometric rotation in their head and the point of these moons being the same will become clear.


PS. Can readers of this post who are currently or about to re-play SR1 or SR2 please be on the look out for the moon in these games. I can not recall seeing a moon in them but just in case, please be on the look out.

LOKFan
03-03-2004, 10:57 PM
Nosgoth's sky in SR is completely obscured by smoke following Kain's order and in SR2, the only era where it's possible to see the moon is the one a hundred years after BO. If I have time, I'll check it out.

Kainster
03-04-2004, 11:11 PM
Your ideas intrigue me. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

wishmaster
03-14-2004, 12:23 PM
Nosgoth could be next to Pensylvania.
That would explain the curse the hylden came up with.

WraithStar
03-14-2004, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by wishmaster
Nosgoth could be next to Pensylvania.
That would explain the curse the hylden came up with.

How? I don't get it. What has Pennsylvania got to do with vampirism?

LOKFan
03-14-2004, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by LOKFan
in SR2, the only era where it's possible to see the moon is the one a hundred years after BO. If I have time, I'll check it out.

OK, the sky in this era is completely obscured by cloud no matter where you go. So, you can't see the moon.

Kains_Queen
03-15-2004, 01:48 AM
Don't you mean Transylvania? home of Dracula etc

The Warrior Servant
03-16-2004, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by LOKFan
OK, the sky in this era is completely obscured by cloud no matter where you go. So, you can't see the moon.

Thanks for checking that out. Maybe LoK6 will give us some answers to Nosgoths location or at least some better idea.

Hey here's a challenge for the CD production, try and attain a photo, if any exist (I can't remember) of the DARK side of the moon and incorporate it into Lok6. That will really confuse us.
:)

mortaniusgod
03-16-2004, 05:30 AM
I don't want CD to explain where on earth is Nosgoth. I like it that way. I like to think of Noshoth as a mystical land in another time, in another world.
Letting us know that Nosgoth is on earth or any other particular place. would ruin the game's experience. At least for me.

Kains_Queen
03-16-2004, 05:33 AM
I agree, I like it being a fantasy land

van_HellSing PL
03-16-2004, 06:19 AM
:rolleyes:

Nosgoth is NOT on Earth. As for the moon bit - so what, the Thief games also did have Earth's moon in them. It's just that most developers wouldn't even think that players could recognize the Moon in their fantasy game let alone think it means that their games are set on Earth...

3pwud
03-16-2004, 03:53 PM
Tatooine is actually on Earth too, in Star Wars. The hills are the same, honestly - check it out. So, in fact is Endor and Hoth...

Hah, this Earth place is more than we give it credit for :)

WraithStar
03-18-2004, 11:38 PM
The Legacy of Kain series has shown such planning and attention to detail that I wouldn't dismiss the moon picture so easily. It probably doesn't mean anything, but you never know...:)

card
03-19-2004, 12:05 AM
in the end it doesn't really matter....no?

KainRlz
03-21-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by The Warrior Servant
Recently while re-playing BO2, I caught a glimpse of a curious detail behind the Sarafan Lord head on top of the Sarafan keep during the FMV when Kain first re-meets the Sarafan Lord. What caught my attention was a moon, and it made me start to postulate a supposition. I replayed the level and acquired a screen shot of that moon and then acquiring a digital photo of our moon I did a comparison and proved my supposition correct, that the moon of Nosgoth and the Earth’s moon is one and the same. This is shown by looking at the Maria (any of various darkish level areas on the moon) and comparing Nosgoth’s moon to ours there is a one-to-one match of Maria. Indeed Mare Chisium, Mare Tranquillitatus, and Mare Frigoris (for example) are all quite visible on the Nosgoth moon.

Now, the features of any planetoid is routed in its creation and its evolution over its life, so the probability a planetoid would have developed and evolved (by which I refer to the variables in the creation process as well as the variables in the impact of collisions with other celestial matter) in the same way is very, very, very remote. Indeed there is a higher probability that while relieving yourself one day, you urinate out a purple fully grown bull African elephant wearing a pink and white striped tutu holding up an umbrella and asking “is this the way to Coorhagen” in a Brooklyn accent, than what there is of two planetoids developing the same features. Hence Nosgoth’s moon must be our moon and there for Nosgoth must be located on Earth.

Now in our last (lets say) 600 years of cartographical endeavours, Humanity has mapped virtually every place on this planet, or at least mapped every continental landmass which Nosgoth (given its size) would inhabit. However we find no Nosgoth on our maps, which leads us into the development of theories surrounding the nature of this landmass.



I would hence like to propose that Nosgoth be in Earth’s distant future in a time where our societies have been wiped out by some cataclysmic event. The Earth, its landmasses and its animal/vegetable life would have to evolve to satisfy the new conditions. Now, some survivors of the Human may have already had necessarily attributes in order to survive in their new local environment hence the reason we find Humans in Nosgoth. Other Human survivors however may have needed to adapt to their local environments (requiring wings, etc) spawning the Ancient race. An off shoot of this race then could have moved to new environments hence evolving into the Hylden. Now, I’m not sure if the evolution was like this or whether Ancients are an off shoot of Hylden or whether they’re both off shoots from some other generic species, but suffice to say Humans, Vampire, and Hylden could all share a quite similar genome. To support this look at the Humans’ ability to become Vampires, this could only be done if they had quite similar genetics, further more I'll sight the example of the Seer from BO2 who not only has very Hylden traits but also very Vampire traits indicating she is a hybrid, hence showing that Hylden and Vampire have similar genetics. Hence they are all different divisions of the same species.

Now I can’t remember who originally coined this phrase (I believe it was a famous Sci-fi writer) but what they said is thus, “Given enough time all technology will seem like magic.” (Which is true if you think about for instance how a computer illiterate person views a computer.) This could explain the magic occurrences in Nosgoth. Indeed it would seem that the races have a tendency for different kinds of technological endeavours. The Hylden, with their development of the vampire curse and the Mass indicate a preference to the biological sciences, while the Ancients with the development of the Pillars and the Reaver indicate their preference for the mechanical sciences. Both capable of great feets of magic routed in technological science.

As for the elder god, I can only speculate to its nature. Perhaps it has always existed on Earth and was the manifestation that current religions worship. Alternately it could be a space born parasite that caused the cataclysmic event. It could even be a final by product of today’s biological manipulation endeavours. Your speculation is as good as mine.



An alternative theory to the location of Nosgoth is that it is on Earth but exists on an alternate dimensional plane to us, ie. In our distant past our Earth evolved in one direction, while their Earth evolved in another. This would explain the features of the Nosgoth moon being the same as ours, while explaining the deviations between our Earth and Nosgoth’s. Further more this idea of alternate dimensional planes is strengthened by the concept of the Hylden banishment to a demon dimension, as well as Azimuth’s ability to bring in creatures from other dimensions to Nosgoth. (Hey, if this alternate dimension theory is correct, I wonder if Azimuth visited us. Maybe she brought lawyers or even worse Microsoft back to terrorise Nosgoth.)

There is a major problem with this theory in that the probability that Humans could evolve on two different Earth’s is quite remote (as about as remote as two different moons developing the same features.) Even if the split in the Earth’s evolution were made during the early times of Humans, there would not be enough time to produce the deviations of Ancient or Hylden (we would see evidence of their possible evolution on our Earth, which we don’t.) There For I find the prior theory to be more plausible.



(Alternately, Nosgoth is not on Earth. All the CD production team wanted was a shot of a moon and where to lazy to create one so they just stuck a shot of our moon in the game. BUT REALLY WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF THAT.)


In conclusion, shown by the example of the moon and so forth, I now come back to my original claim that Nosgoth IS on Earth!



(PS. if any one can tell me how you put images in a post, I’ll include the comparison images of the moon.)

Awesome theory, but I was about to say the same thing..

Dark Abyss
03-22-2004, 12:40 AM
Hey maybe the moon is ours but Nosgoth is not on earth. Think of an old Dimension Guardia, and ancient, that should be far more powerfull then the human guardians. Then, after the curse, they had to feed so...hmmm, let's find us a nice planet with red bloode ppl and transport them here. OK, let's do it said Janos. So, the dimension guardian makes his spel but just then, he didn't notice that the moon passed trough the teleporter beem from Earth to Nosgoth (that could also explain alien abductions) and stole it or something or merely replicated it :rolleyes:

DestinyOfKain
03-22-2004, 05:42 PM
if that was so, Why don't I have cloven hands and feet? :( ...you're definitely very observant though, gotta give that to you!
Bah..I already live in a fantasy world, so I should just keep quiet.

Omni_Sephiroth
03-23-2004, 12:45 AM
Short answer 'No'

Dark Abyss
03-25-2004, 01:06 AM
but whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy????

sonofkain666
03-25-2004, 05:53 PM
If your theory is correct and the first one I agree is much more plausable then it would tend to lean towards the fact that we in essance are playing out our own future and that some of us are destined for another throw another chance to defy the tyrannis stars and change the mechantions of our own fates. I agree with Kain, free will is an illusion so who says that the coin couldn't one day land on its edge...

SonofKain666

Jade Tsrugi
03-31-2004, 08:33 PM
Or how about this?

Its a smaller, invisible planet, which orbits our moon. That would explain why all of Nosgoth is such a small place(as far as BO2 and SR2 go. Never played the other two to any point where I could see the extense of the world).

card
03-31-2004, 09:38 PM
there was something like this in Isaac Asimov's Nightfall. there was a planet around theirs (main guys'), but it was invisible, because of four other suns, and you could never see it, because it was eclipsed, and it was always daytime. something like, i read it a long time ago..(great book by the way!)
so if it would be invisible, it would have to have some sort of good explanation like the one above (which is not very well explained by me :p)

Don don
04-17-2004, 11:13 AM
Well Nosgoth maybe not, but Willemdorf is surely on Earth. I saw the name in a history book.

card
04-17-2004, 11:29 AM
well, willendorf may have been some ancient town or tribe, but it can't really be the same one from the game, just in name. maybe it was about the fat lady statue, check out google>images>willendorf