View Full Version : Will be there a camera patch?
nomalom
12-24-2003, 08:10 PM
Really hate asking, but if there will be none i will just get the game back to the store.
blincoln
12-24-2003, 08:14 PM
Maybe you should try playing the game as-is for awhile. I thought the cinematic cam style was odd when I first saw it in Devil May Cry, but after a few hours it was my favourite type.
nomalom
12-24-2003, 08:49 PM
blincoln:
Well i`ve seen and played several other games with cameras alike: LotR - Return of the King, Resident Evil, Wallace and Gromit and several others. Wasn`t able to get used to the controls, i`m kinda semi-professional Unreal Tournament player, have beaten godlike Xan in about 3 month after the game release, so you get the idea why i can`t get accustomed to cameras like these.
Was expecting game to be like Blood Omen 2 that was great, thus rushed to the store and bought it, could`ve saved some time and nevers reading this forum.
Tesla
12-25-2003, 12:15 AM
The answer is most likey "NO." If they do patch the game, it's likely to fix bugs. If they somehow include 'camera fixes' in the patch, they would likely fix only a few key cameras that were poorly placed. The overall camera feel and everything would stay the same.
VoRaDoR
12-25-2003, 06:40 AM
I want to mention that the majority of the gamers who have played the game are disappointed with camera angles. To be honest, I have not played the game yet but (I'm in Europe) a lot of gamers are complaining about the camera angles in the game.
I personally thought that the game was designed with the Soul Reaver 2 or Blood Omen 2 camera angles. I find the camera angles on Blood Omen 2 and Soul Reaver 2 good. However I'm now more anxious to play Defiance on my Xbox and PC. Therefore I will be able to share my opinion about the game as well.
frodo098
12-25-2003, 06:30 PM
I also am hating this camera as well, it probably won't happen this time around, but I think they should have included a first person mode for the plaforming parts of the, or at least let you rotate the camera from time to time. Those platforming parts of the game are just too much with those fixed angles.
DestinyOfKain
12-25-2003, 06:43 PM
It's not as bad as it is being put out to be.....it's not like there will always be a pillar in the way or an angle the conceals a cliff....play more games w\ this camera angle and you'll see it's a good idea that's finally being utilized, that's all.
blincoln
12-25-2003, 07:31 PM
I want to mention that the majority of the gamers who have played the game are disappointed with camera angles.
No, the majority of gamers don't care either way. There are some vocal critics *and* supporters of the camera, though.
Tesla
12-25-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by frodo098
I also am hating this camera as well, it probably won't happen this time around, but I think they should have included a first person mode for the plaforming parts of the, or at least let you rotate the camera from time to time. Those platforming parts of the game are just too much with those fixed angles.
I think it'd be cool if there was a way to "force" the camera to stay in first person. Sometimes being in first person helps for looking around and stuff, and playing in first person should be possible. I don't think it'd be too hard to patch in something that lets you run around in first person.
frodo098
12-25-2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by blincoln
No, the majority of gamers don't care either way. There are some vocal critics *and* supporters of the camera, though.
That's not really true, you don't care and that's cool, but alot of other people care about this and it was because of the camera that alot of reviewers only game LOK:D so-so reviews, a bad camera can screw up alot of things, just about every review stated the camera was the games biggest flaw, and imo they were absolutely right. It's great with combat, but for everything else, it's just a real pain, Eidos should have just did the smart thing and only activated that fixed camera angle when you're engaged in battle, then it could zoom out to a user controlled view when you're done, this would have made alot of people happy.
Let's just clear it up for everyone here and now.
The game is playable with the camera if you ignore the fact that you will not see what your character would actually see when entering the room. The game is playable with the camera as it is, BUT, it takes the control out of the players hands, those who are used to being able to choose and see what their player character can see will find this sort of camera very uncomfortable and frankly irritated at the fact that control has been removed from their hands.
If you just leave the camera alone you'll have better luck, it won't make it any better but it makes it bareable to get through the game and finally uninstall it and return it to eb right away if you're so fed up with it afterwards.
ZelenGangrel
12-25-2003, 08:43 PM
That's not really true, you don't care and that's cool, but alot of other people care about this and it was because of the camera that alot of reviewers only game LOK so-so reviews, a bad camera can screw up alot of things, just about every review stated the camera was the games biggest flaw, and imo they were absolutely right.
These are the same reviewers who did nothing but rave about the camera before it the game came out. That really shows how much faith you can put in game reviewers, because they change their minds alot from production to final product. The Camera has been the same for the whole time.
There is nothing wrong with the camera it all. Instead of being lazy with a behind the back camera, you actually have to have some gaming skill in order to use it. Depth perception and hand eye coordination are a must. If you dont have that, I can see why people have problems with the camera. But it works perfectly with the game style. And just learning to use the analog or keyboard with the camera to keep yourself moving in the right direction. Being able to be brave enough to rush into an angle and fight the enemies there, without being able to see it coming. If you see everything coming, how is the combat system really all that better and less predictable?
If you cant adjust to change, stop playing the game. But 3rd person, behind the back games are on the way out and that's all there is.
This game is superior to anything I've ever played, camera and all. I have no problem with it, other than a little frame rate issues.
I still dont see any reason why people should be complaining about this at all.
Here's how I see it.
If I walk into a room, and all of a sudden the camera changes to an angle/placement where it shows my character walking into a new room intead of the contents of the room, the camera is therefore, non-beneficial towards how I play and detrimental to my situation assessment abilities as a game player.
ZelenGangrel
12-25-2003, 08:52 PM
No, its a camera that matches the same style as the cinematics in the game. Take for example Kain's second stage, the second part of the Stronghold. In the room where you train with the dummies. You come into the room and there are 3 green guards and a spell caster. You cant see any off them. But you can hear them and when you run into the room the camera pulls back and you see everyone. And with the quick dodging moves, you wont be hit once.
You see? There is no problem, as long as you try. Unless you cant hear the ambient sounds of the enemies, you should be fine.
blincoln
12-25-2003, 08:54 PM
Defiance is designed so that seeing your character at first and the room second is not a problem. If you were playing an FPS or something, I could understand your complaint.
LOL YOU CAN HEAR THEM???
That's exactly what a blind man says, I can't see you but I can hear you!
Listen to yourself, thanks for proving my point. You actually have to run into the room and pretty much run smack into them for them to appear in your view, NONE of the minions except the sub bosses are a threat, the last boss is EASILY beaten. It's just too funny that you defend the game by saying "You can't see them but you can hear them!", lol
again I'll repeat, the game is playable with the camera, but I as an avid gamer of all kind sof games find this one of the worse choices for implementing a camera system. Want to see a camera much better done that also involves puzzles? Beyond good and evil, Prince of Persia, both crowning achievements in their own right and very different in gameplay that is nowhere near as rehashed as Soul Reaver 3, oh wait sorry LOK: Defiance, coulda swore I was playing a soul reaver game when I passed by 20 reaver element specific doors I couldn't open.
ZelenGangrel
12-25-2003, 08:59 PM
No, not really.
You just have an odd sense of humor.
The idea of hearing an opponent makes the game more realistic. Kain cant see the 3 enemies hiding in the room when he first comes in, so why should you? He cant see them until he enters the main room, so why should you?
Using other senses besides sight makes you more in touch with what's going on around you.
The fact that you're justifying not being able to see enemies that are no less than 50m from your position with no obstructions besides a column or two in the way and saying that the situation is fine because you can still hear them is ridiculous. Say for instance that there was an archer among them that had an actual 20/20 vision and looked in my direction and started firing? I wouldn't have even known that there was an enemy in the room until I get smacked in the face with an arrowhead. As you said, the camera is a cinematic camera, not the greatest for situations where precision jumping is required, but anyways happy holidays.
blincoln
12-25-2003, 09:17 PM
Nowhere in the game is a room where you can't see your opponents and they are attacking you with missile weapons.
In fact, there aren't even any rooms that I'm away of where there are enemies that spawn offscreen. They always stay hidden in the ground until you are close enough to see them anyway.
A follow-cam gives you a blind spot behind you. Does that make it flawed because enemies can spawn offscreen there?
ZelenGangrel
12-25-2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by exo
As you said, the camera is a cinematic camera, not the greatest for situations where precision jumping is required, but anyways happy holidays.
Actually its better than a behind the back camera, cause you have some vision of depth and distance when you jump.
Originally posted by blincoln
Nowhere in the game is a room where you can't see your opponents and they are attacking you with missile weapons.
In fact, there aren't even any rooms that I'm away of where there are enemies that spawn offscreen. They always stay hidden in the ground until you are close enough to see them anyway.
A follow-cam gives you a blind spot behind you. Does that make it flawed because enemies can spawn offscreen there?
....
Follow cam with a blindspot behind you is easily remedied by... say it with me now!
mouse look control quickling swivelling left or right immediately making your character look behind them!
AMAZING!!!
Originally posted by ZelenGangrel
Actually its better than a behind the back camera, cause you have some vision of depth and distance when you jump.
actually no, a specific place where I found the camera annoying was the first trip to the library, quite difficult with the angle the camera was placed, but alas, I probably not the uber lok player that you are would have to say you more than likely will have a "I had no problems with that part" ready for me as well as very well have had no problem with that part.
ZelenGangrel
12-25-2003, 09:27 PM
Yes, amazing. You solved one blind spot by causing another.
Truely remarkable.
----
Actually the only part about the Mansion that fustrated me was how long it was.
Originally posted by ZelenGangrel
Yes, amazing. You solved one blind spot by causing another.
Truely remarkable.
LOL, you are definitely sounding like a fanatic more and more coming back with an even POORER argument as we actually get down to the point.
It's a blindspot for as long as it takes for your human physical head to look behind you, but QUICKER considering it's a quick twist of the hand. Good argument.
ZelenGangrel
12-25-2003, 09:34 PM
No, I'm a console gamer. Therefore there is no quick fix mouse answer to solve all my problems.
frodo098
12-25-2003, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by ZelenGangrel
These are the same reviewers who did nothing but rave about the camera before it the game came out. That really shows how much faith you can put in game reviewers, because they change their minds alot from production to final product. The Camera has been the same for the whole time.
There is nothing wrong with the camera it all. Instead of being lazy with a behind the back camera, you actually have to have some gaming skill in order to use it. Depth perception and hand eye coordination are a must. If you dont have that, I can see why people have problems with the camera. But it works perfectly with the game style. And just learning to use the analog or keyboard with the camera to keep yourself moving in the right direction. Being able to be brave enough to rush into an angle and fight the enemies there, without being able to see it coming. If you see everything coming, how is the combat system really all that better and less predictable?
If you cant adjust to change, stop playing the game. But 3rd person, behind the back games are on the way out and that's all there is.
This game is superior to anything I've ever played, camera and all. I have no problem with it, other than a little frame rate issues.
I still dont see any reason why people should be complaining about this at all.
Reviewers say alot of things when the games are just in beta, and when those guys were previewing the game most of them were complementing the combat camera, there's a big difference between a beta for preview and a fully finished game. If you don't believe me just look at XII, people were all over that game before it came out just like Defiance, by the time the real thing came out it ended up getting mostly average reviews, kinda like Defiance. :p
Also, saying anybody who doesn't like the camera in Defiance is just one of the cheapest fanboy copouts ever. I don't like the camera in this game at all when it comes to platforming, but I'm very good at games and have always been. I'm not a record setting expert or anything, but I know I don't suck at the games and I'm sure most of those other people who have not been happy about the camera do either.
If you cant adjust to change, stop playing the game. But 3rd person, behind the back games are on the way out and that's all there is.
Haha, keep dreaming, if every platformer out now used a camera system similar to the control-less one in Defiance, we'd be well on our way to an all new video game market crash.
This game is superior to anything I've ever played, camera and all. I have no problem with it, other than a little frame rate issues.
I still dont see any reason why people should be complaining about this at all.
I could have sworn I heard you saying the exact same thing about Blood Omen 2. :rolleyes:
ZelenGangrel
12-25-2003, 09:39 PM
Except I dont know you, so I doubt you ever heard me say that, and the fact I havent been on a forum in over a year probably is another reason why.
frodo098
12-25-2003, 09:49 PM
I know you, Blincon, and all those other fanboys from the Nosgothic Realm forums. ;)
corwin
12-25-2003, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by blincoln
No, the majority of gamers don't care either way.
This is obviously an understatement
blincoln
12-25-2003, 10:27 PM
Haha, keep dreaming, if every platformer out now used a camera system similar to the control-less one in Defiance, we'd be well on our way to an all new video game market crash.
Defiance, Devil May Cry, Return of the King, Ico, Prince of Persia. That sounds like a list of pretty well-made and generally well-received games to me, even if I still think PoP is overrated.
This is obviously an understatement
How can I be understating that most people don't really care either way?
Some people dislike the camera. Some people like it a lot. Most people care more about the actual content of the game.
corwin
12-25-2003, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by blincoln
How can I be understating that most people don't really care either way?
Some people dislike the camera. Some people like it a lot. Most people care more about the actual content of the game.
how do you know what the majority of the gamers is thinking when you do not even know them
from the look of this forum, it seems to be that the majority of the gamers have annoying issues with the cameras
frodo098
12-25-2003, 10:38 PM
Defiance, Devil May Cry, Return of the King, Ico, Prince of Persia. That sounds like a list of pretty well-made and generally well-received games to me, even if I still think PoP is overrated.
Yeah, but the thing is, those games made great use of the fixed camera Defiance didn't. How often do you hear people compaining about PoP, Ico, or RotK's camera? As nice as those games were, with stuff like Jak and Daxter, Rachet and Clank, Mario, Sonic, Sly Cooper, I don't see third person platformers with the from behind camera leaving anything soon.
Most people care more about the actual content of the game.
What good is the content when the camera is making it hard to enjoy it? Judging by the way so many people have been complaining, it seems like this is more of a matter of getting used to a bad camera rather than it being a good one, but that's just my opinion.
corwin
12-26-2003, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by frodo098
Yeah, but the thing is, those games made great use of the fixed camera Defiance didn't. How often do you hear people compaining about PoP, Ico, or RotK's camera? As nice as those games were, with stuff like Jak and Daxter, Rachet and Clank, Mario, Sonic, Sly Cooper, I don't see third person platformers with the from behind camera leaving anything soon.
nicely said
It is definitely wrong to say the camera in Defiance is similar to that of POP, even though the two games made use of dynamic camera. The angles used in POP make sure you are able to jump to the place you intend to jump with ease. Defiance has such awkward angles that made characters look like retard with no sense of direction.
I'm sorry but you comparing PoP's camera to Defiance has put you in worlds biggest idiots book.
RoTK - Boring
ICO - Okay but not my cup of tea
DMC - Crap Camera Angles, In MY opinion unplayable but others liked it, combat looked nice and flashy but the fixed cameras really took away from my wanting to smoothely run down stairways and into rooms dashing too and frow without having to re-adjust controls because going left didn't mean going west anymore it meant going right or going forwards meant pressing down instead of up, and so on and so on.
PoP - Fun, best jumping, swinging, wall runnin I've enjoyed in a while and despite the fact that some of the stuff is actually pretty repetitive, nowhere near as boring as SR1/2
Beyond Good and Evil - Very well done camera that semi-follows you and allows you to adjust the angle to make it look up and down from a fixed position, at one point I found it to be pretty retarded but it's been perfect every other time besides that one point, basically it was stuck against the wall that time so no worries.
I don't see how having a controllable camera takes away from the content of the game since having a 3rd person locked player controlled with mouse camera allows players to be immersed even further enjoying the content more instead of getting a nice wallpaper screenshot at all times view.
corwin
12-26-2003, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by exo
I'm sorry but you comparing PoP's camera to Defiance has put you in worlds biggest idiots book.
Yes, there are some idiots who think that POP's camera is similar to Defiance, which is not true
Defiance camera is similar to Devil may cry, not POP.
Wraith_BlaDe
12-26-2003, 05:31 AM
LOL! You cannot compare the camera from POP, to Defiance.
POP in my opinion has great camera angles, while Defiance Lacks in that department. I love POP, Great game.
xarax
12-26-2003, 07:48 AM
The cinematic camera is so bad, I took an hour to make 5 simple hops in chapter 1 over the water. I had to quit after another hour at the start of chapter 2. I couldn't get up out of the underworld, because the camera is flying around and changing the meaning of the direction keys in mid-air. IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE JUMPS.
THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO USE A CINEMATIC CAMERA. The SR1 or SR2 camera styles (3rd person behind) were adequate. The cinematic camera makes the game UNPLAYABLE, because it messes the jump puzzles and you cannot see where you are going.
The series ended with SR2. Raziel and Kain are history.:(
It was fun while it lasted, but this is the demise of CD.
:(
Umah Bloodomen
12-26-2003, 09:54 AM
You are all free to agree to disagree, however as always, do so constructively. Leave your finger-pointing and "fanboy" accusations off the boards, please. We really would rather not have this camera-related thread meet the same fate as a few others.
Thanks. :)
ZelenGangrel
12-26-2003, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by frodo098
I know you, Blincon, and all those other fanboys from the Nosgothic Realm forums. ;)
Hardly a fanboy, I just happen to recognize a game that I like. I own very few games, and only play series or games that catch my attention.
And I'm "formerly" of Nosgothic Realm, I dont post there anymore. That place just doesnt sit right with me at all.
Originally posted by ZelenGangrel
Hardly a fanboy, I just happen to recognize a game that I like. I own very few games, and only play series or games that catch my attention.
And I'm "formerly" of Nosgothic Realm, I dont post there anymore. That place just doesnt sit right with me at all.
sorry buddy, playing the game 45 times and running around on the forums proudly stating that you've completed the game 45 times so very much screams == Fanatic.
ZelenGangrel
12-26-2003, 12:10 PM
Nah, it just means I enjoy playing the game enough not to be able to put it down. While you cant seem to play once through without finding fault.
Odd huh?
There's no reason TO play the game through a second time or a 3rd. I've already taken from the game what I wanted to know, why bother repeating what I've already done the first time I played through?
There's no special perks you get for beating the game except unlocking cutscenes, there's no 'metal gear solid'-like gameplay where you get a scarf that gives you unlimited ammo, or being able to play in a different suit, or an invisibility unit. Nope none of that, eliminating the reason of why I would play any game again.
ZelenGangrel
12-26-2003, 12:23 PM
If you used the controller codes (but you have PC) then you would have replay value, or the debug menu (again, you have PC so you cant).
But then again, I'm talking to someone who doesnt play games, for the gameplay, rather the story. So why are you playing the game, have someone else play it and tape the story line parts for you. That way you dont have to bother with it at all. You dont waste anyone's time with worthless complaints about a gameplay system you dont even wanna use in the first place. Why are you complaining about a gameplay camera, if you dont want to do the game play to begin with? All you want is the story.
Optik45
12-26-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by ZelenGangrel
If you cant adjust to change, stop playing the game. But 3rd person, behind the back games are on the way out and that's all there is.
.
Well if they did do Defiance in this Behind the Back Tomb Raider style, Would anyone be disappointment or irritated. If behind the back camera games are on the way out its force from programmers and not the Gaming Audience.
It seems most of us are putting up with this game just to find out what happens to the Characters. I dont know if I can do this. A game needs to have a great story line for me to play but that Cant be it, The game needs to offer me more. If Im just playing the game for the Story I would much rather Read a Legacy of Kain: Defiance Novel.
What? And miss out on all the cinematic camera scene gameplay for myself?
Don't be silly. :X
ZelenGangrel
12-26-2003, 12:28 PM
But the Tomb Raider/BO2 forced view is terrible, and the main reason I've never played a TR game for very long. The camera movement of those games is TOO fixed. I want to be able to see the enviroment around my character, not just a straight on view from over his shoulders.
Optik45
12-26-2003, 12:30 PM
Im Silly in the very least. Reading the story would be relaxing, Imaginative, and enjoyable. Playing the game is Irritating and while Im playing all I think about is "How is this possible" I can't seem to loose track of time and get sucked into the game. Just too annoying.
I think Soul Reaver had the best Camera Work. It was for the most part Fixed but did rotate and shift to give your different cinematic views, but at the same time you could bring the controls back into your will. Why did they stray on this. I was pleased with the way it was....."If its not broke, Dont fix it"
ZelenGangrel
12-26-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by exo
What? And miss out on all the cinematic camera scene gameplay for myself?
Don't be silly. :X
Then why are you complaining? If you want to play the game, then you adjust to how the game is. The SR series was completely different from BO, BO2 was different from all of them and Defiance is different from everything else in the series.
With each sub section, how you play has changed. Its just another change. Who knows if CD is even planning to keep the Cine-cam in the next game or not. They may be planning something new.
But this is how the game is, you learn to control it the way its meant to be controlled, not complain because its not flawlessly doing what you want without effort on your part. And that's all there is to it. Adjust or dont. But dont complain about things that cant be changed now. Wait until talk of a new game really gets in motion and then voice your opinions about what you would like to see in it.
One thing I havent heard from you is how you would change the Cine-cam from what it is, to something better, without just reverting the camera back to the old style.
One thing I would do is pull back the camera to the opposite end of the room from where you enter, but have a wide angle so you see yourself coming in still, but you see yourself coming into the large room you've already seen, then the camera could pull in closer.
ZelenGangrel
12-26-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Optik45
"If its not broke, Dont fix it"
But the combat system was broken, and boring. So a wide angle view was needed for the new combat system. Would you like to try to fight the way Defiance plays with the SR camera? This would make you unable to see all the characters surrounding you.
Optik45
12-26-2003, 01:15 PM
You could keep the same Cam as Soul Reaver and still very very easily Adjust the camera position for combat scenes. A Child could program that. If Cinematography was what CD was going for then why not keep a general Over the top (Similar to SR) but have (For the lack of a better word) Scripted Camera shots. Say for example, If Kain comes into a room (possibly the style you mentioned, a wide angle) and have the Camera fly and rotate around waiting Enemies and at the same time give a great display of the room you are in and come back to the normal Camera style. There is ways to make a cinematic game without having it like that 100% of the time. The reason I ***** about the Camera is because I dont think CD wanted it to be like this. I think they know it sucks but either too lazy to do anything about it or didnt have enough time to program it differently before Due Date.
blincoln
12-26-2003, 01:24 PM
It would still be incredibly boring to be constantly viewing your character from behind (or out of their own eyes).
PC gamers are the main group of people asking for something like this, and they hardly buy any platformer games anyway. It doesn't make sense to stop the progress of console games just because PC gamers can't get out of their mindset.
What would make the most sense is to just stop porting console games to the PC entirely. I really think that in a few years, the *only* people playing PC games will be the ones who shell out thousands of dollars to get high framerates in the latest FPS.
As I've said before, this really reminds me of the people who couldn't accept 3D games. I remember some of the same arguments, even. "Oh, it's too hard to figure out where to jump in a 3D game. I need a side view, like Super Mario Brothers."
ZelenGangrel
12-26-2003, 01:25 PM
Crystal Dynamics and Ms Hennig in paticular have always been very open about their own games, and if there was stuff about the games that displeased them, they are very open and honest about what they would have like to have fixed before the due date.
No where has anyone from CD said that they are annoyed or dispointed in the camera. Only PC gamers and a few console gamers have said anything in that regard.
Dont assume.
Optik45
12-26-2003, 01:46 PM
Hrmm Im not going to get into the advantages of PC games over Console.
Long story short, The game is OK, but annoying. Its sad to see a game hindered by something as easily fixed as a camera angle. I would really not be bored by a more fixed camera. To say so is ridiculous. Almost every Game of the Year is a fixed camera game. Legacy of Kain is not one of those games. A camera angle does not make a game but it sure can break one.
Acrobad
12-26-2003, 07:26 PM
I actually registered so that I can say something here, and I hope it's effective.
I see a way that this argument could have been settled a long time ago: If CD had implemented a dual camera, if not multi camera system. By that, I mean games like Mario 64, they had cinematic view, 3rd person back view, and sometimes even first person view. Now, by saying that, I'm completely aware that time is always against us, and that the team might not have enough time to do so. But how much longer would it take?
I assume that Defiance is using the same engine as SR1/SR2? If my assumption is right, then the existing back view camera didn't need to much reworking, and they needed time to work on a new cinematic camera anyways, so giving some time to fix cam view bugs or something, it shouldn't take too long.
Again, I am aware that dead-line seems to be the most troublesome problem with northamerica game developers. Thus why I wouldn't demand such an option of being able to switch the camera view as the players like.
I must confess that I haven't played Defiance yet. I got the game alright, I don't have the appropiate system to play it yet. So I have no opinion on whether the camera is good or not. However, I frequently visit blincoln's site and I'm pretty confident that he did post a 3rd person back view camera tweak for console gamers. (perhaps this was the original switchable camera?) This perhaps was why less console gamers seem to complain about the camera.
Having said that, I still see no point of arguing if this camera was good or not. The thread title was "Will there be a camera patch?" and it had just somehow led to some individuals trying to convince another about how the camera view is superior/inferior to the previous games. I mean, Sheesh, it doesn't matter if the other person like it or not, you've said that you don't like the camera angle, but it won't help because the game is already developed/published that way.
I might be one of the people who will dislike the new camera angle, but I see little to no reason for this little fight to go on. If CD decides to make a camera patch, terrific. If not, live with it.
frodo098
12-26-2003, 08:21 PM
I own very few games, and only play series or games that catch my attention.
Well then if you play so few games, what gives you the right to differentiate between what's good and bad when you obviously wouldn't know? You saying that is like me saying, "Wow, this has to be the best cake ever made!", yet I've only tasted about 3 or 4 in total. How can Defiance have one of the best camera systems ever when you have obviously have not seen many others if what you say is true?
Originally posted by ZelenGangrel
Then why are you complaining? If you want to play the game, then you adjust to how the game is. The SR series was completely different from BO, BO2 was different from all of them and Defiance is different from everything else in the series.
With each sub section, how you play has changed. Its just another change. Who knows if CD is even planning to keep the Cine-cam in the next game or not. They may be planning something new.
But this is how the game is, you learn to control it the way its meant to be controlled, not complain because its not flawlessly doing what you want without effort on your part. And that's all there is to it. Adjust or dont. But dont complain about things that cant be changed now. Wait until talk of a new game really gets in motion and then voice your opinions about what you would like to see in it.
One thing I havent heard from you is how you would change the Cine-cam from what it is, to something better, without just reverting the camera back to the old style.
One thing I would do is pull back the camera to the opposite end of the room from where you enter, but have a wide angle so you see yourself coming in still, but you see yourself coming into the large room you've already seen, then the camera could pull in closer.
My God, Sarcasm Is NOT in this Zealot's vocabulary!!!
Change it? I liked it the way it was in SR2, therefore, the change shouldn't have made is my point, thanks.
Let's take Neverwinter nights as an example.
Bioware in all their goodness released the game with a bloody camera lock that only allowed users to pan around up to a certain point.
Then, came along this person called Brandon who developed a camera hack that not only allowed useres to have a first person view but free moving camera that could move around the character fully zooming in and out and also the ability to increase the clipping plane if your computer could handle it, this breathed MAJOR LIFE into the aurora engine. 20 patches later Bioware decided to give in and released the camera lock and now it's standard, the world is ALL the better for it because we the community that played nwn and didn't agree with the camera lock made our disgruntlement known.
If CD won't make the camera work more beneficial to the gamers who don't like how it works currently, no worries, it's not like the game has any actual potential besides what it already is. It can't exactly 'grow' so to speak with added player content, and so on and so forth, but for me myself, if it wasn't for the releasing of the camera lock on NWN I probably wouldn't even bother with its 2 expansions.
corwin
12-26-2003, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by blincoln
It would still be incredibly boring to be constantly viewing your character from behind (or out of their own eyes).
PC gamers are the main group of people asking for something like this, and they hardly buy any platformer games anyway. It doesn't make sense to stop the progress of console games just because PC gamers can't get out of their mindset.
As i have said many times, there is nothing wrong with using cinematic camera, but when the game developers are using this camera, they have to make sure that the camera angles are right. And a successful case is Prince of Persia: sands of time. It is not true when you stated that PC gamers cannot get out of their midset, because gamers have no problem with cinematic camera with other games such as POP, or LOTR: ROTK. So the problem lies with Defiance, not with the gamers.
Originally posted by blincoln
I really think that in a few years, the *only* people playing PC games will be the ones who shell out thousands of dollars to get high framerates in the latest FPS.
What made you think that only people who can afford high fps will play pc games? This would mean getting a very high end PC most of the times, which is, needless to say, very expensive to maintain. A high end graphic card alone already cost about $US400. I am very sure not many people can afford getting high end system all the time. Even if some can afford it, he/she will most likely think it is a waste of money. From what i know, people will buy a new system after using the old one for about 2 years or more.
Originally posted by blincoln
As I've said before, this really reminds me of the people who couldn't accept 3D games. I remember some of the same arguments, even. "Oh, it's too hard to figure out where to jump in a 3D game. I need a side view, like Super Mario Brothers."
And I could not remember anybody complaining about 3D game, what is the first 3D game you have played? The first 3D game i played is a first person shooter game named 'Dracula' back in 1994 and is packed in a single 3.5 inch disk. Nobody was camplaining but instead everybody was praising the game.
So before you comment anything on this forum, i hope you are serious and clear-minded as there will always be people believing in what they read
first 3d-esque game I played was catacombs of the abyss.
but besides the point to think pc gaming is heading down the tubes definitely identifies that you are definitely ignorant.
World Wide Leagues surround PC gaming, and people STILL play Counter-Strike sadly enough.
A good console to pc port? PoP, Beyond Good and Evil, perfect example games that were released THIS YEAR.
frodo098
12-27-2003, 12:04 AM
The first 3D game i played is a first person shooter game named 'Dracula' back in 1994 and is packed in a single 3.5 inch disk.
What Dracula game is that? I wanna play, there's alot of em' you know, I need more details. :D
ZelenGangrel
12-27-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by frodo098
Well then if you play so few games, what gives you the right to differentiate between what's good and bad when you obviously wouldn't know? You saying that is like me saying, "Wow, this has to be the best cake ever made!", yet I've only tasted about 3 or 4 in total. How can Defiance have one of the best camera systems ever when you have obviously have not seen many others if what you say is true?
Is said I own very few games, I didnt say I play very few.
I keep track on just about every game released. Other than sports, those suckle. The reason I own so few is because I've very picky about what is worth me buying them. I rent games often but its rare I buy one.
frodo098
12-27-2003, 02:01 AM
I still don't see how if you play that many games, LOK would stick out so much gameplay-wise. The story and atmosphere is excellent, but compared to so many other amazing action platformers out there, except for the original SR, the LOK series gameplay has been somewhat mediocre to be quite honest.
*I agree with you on that sports games note though, never was my cup of tea either.*
*hell freezes over*
Optik45
12-27-2003, 08:36 AM
How is that Prince of Persia Game anyways, I hear a lot of good stuff about it.....Yeah its pretty much off topic but live with it.
nomalom
12-27-2003, 09:17 AM
Oh well, game`s back in store, still waiting for the patch to come, so i can buy it once again :)
xarax
12-27-2003, 09:41 AM
The change to cinematic camera is a huge mistake. It could not possibly widen the LoK audience. It only narrows the audience. Reducing the market penetration is a bad thing. CD and Eidos want more LoK customers, not fewer.
Is anyone here saying that they would not buy Defiance if it was designed with the SR1 or SR2 camera? Of course not. People are not buying Defiance because it has a cinematic camera.
The cinematic camera is clearly impacting the market viability of the game. It is a fundamental design flaw, and not likely fixed by a patch, because the maps are designed in such a way that a SR1 or SR2 camera style won't fit in some areas. Also, the game engine itself probably doesn't know enough about the old camera style that it could be reliably patched to make it happen.
If someone goes to the trouble of making DiVX cutscenes for Defiance, I will likely download them and watch them. However, this game is unavailable to me, because it is unplayable.
People camplained about the SR1 block puzzles, and the sequel SR2 reduced the number of block puzzles. Block puzzles did not make the game unplayable, just annoying. I doubt that anyone returned the SR1 game because of block puzzles. Block puzzles for Raziel don't kill Raziel when he falls off a block, and there's no time limit for solving a SR1 block puzzle.
The jumping puzzles/challenges in Defiance have tight time limits and lethal penalties, and combined with an unplayable camera, there's no way to make progress in the game.
As others have done, I sent a message to CD by getting a full refund. That's the clearest message I can send.
ZelenGangrel
12-27-2003, 06:16 PM
What store did you get your game from? I'd love to know a game or discount store that gives back a full refund. Every place I know wont take back a game that's been opened and used. Even the very first use of a game disk puts miny scratches in it.
nomalom
12-28-2003, 01:25 AM
First, there was no refund, i`ve exchanged for another title.
Second, there`s friend behind it, not gonna tell where to avoid inconvenieces.
Bishan
12-28-2003, 10:39 AM
well ok so looks like we have to stick with the camera. in a way its acceptable since this game boasts graphics and lush levels in places and afterall this is a 3rdPerson game but is there a way around it i mean i can do well with the camera there is but at times like manual Tk targetting u cant see where ur targetting if the character is facing u and making precision jumps and all that...i got accustomed to the char comin up a room and stuff but still its quite troublesome to play long with the camera...so wht i'm saying is...is there something like mouselook or u know when u move the mouse around the char u can get a better view of the screen or mayb something like center view like when u press a key the camera takes u behind the player for better focus then it goes back to it normal (pre)position(ed) angles once the char starts moving or play the game in 1st person view(we can always change back once we are done with the annoying scenes blocking the way view)...aaah this is confusing but i was hoping if there was any cheat that could enable this and i am referring to the PC version that is...i havent found any pc cheats YET just a trainer but i wanted to play the toon chars and well does anyone know abt em yet ? thanks well i just hope sumone finds a way around the camera thingy and if thers any cheat or hack then at least we are saved if no patch comes along fixing the camera,thats all thanks again ! :rolleyes:
Endoskeleton
12-28-2003, 11:39 AM
A camera which alters the character's direction is a very bad thing... I think many of us fans cursed out loud when quick feet and platform jumping was needed, camera changed the postition in mid-air jump, thus causing poor Raziel/Kain to miss the ledge and falling to the void.
blincoln
12-28-2003, 12:37 PM
The camera does not change position in mid-jump. The only thing I can think of that would cause that is if someone were playing the PC version and was moving the mouse at the same time.
Even when a camera shift *does* change the controls, it only has an effect if you release the movement control and then use it again. If you keep holding the direction you were before the camera shift, your character will keep moving the same way.
The cinematic camera is clearly impacting the market viability of the game.
Only if by "market viability" you are talking about the market of one person, namely you. Your incredible dislike of the cam does not mean anyone else shares your ridiculously extreme view.
ZelenGangrel
12-28-2003, 03:13 PM
What's that old forum term Blinc?
Troll?
Yeah that's what xarax's becoming.
Umah Bloodomen
12-28-2003, 05:03 PM
Play nice, please. :)
W. Raider
12-29-2003, 01:20 PM
I have to say that I'm in agreement with Exo here. In real life, you have a blind spot behind you ALL THE TIME unless you buy some cheap "spy glasses" or are paranoid and look in every reflection you're near.
Saying you solved one blind spot by creating another is really grasping there, when I walk into a room in real life I don't suddenly see myself walk into the room from across the room, I can never see behind me UNLESS I TURN AROUND and look.
Come on people. The camera in Defiance is designed to show off the pretty levels and textures, and in no way help you see what you need to. The camera is in fact another enemy to fight against and even helps make some puzzles harder. That's poor design.
ZelenGangrel
12-29-2003, 04:42 PM
How is a game being harder, poor design?
Isnt the point to challenge you? Not that Defiance is by any means a challenge, but still. And your problem isnt all that big, because you're thinking about playing from the view point of the character when Defiance is supposed to play like an interactive Cinema.
Hence the camera. You're on the outside looking in, not assuming the role of the character. You obviously have control over what he does.
If this were a movie, the player is the director. But Kain and Raz are the stars, so the camera is focused on them. In a movie you dont usually see the main character enter a room from behind him. When you watch a play, the characters rarely turn their backs to the audience because the performance must be viewed to be good.
In this game you are watching a story unfold, but you arent in it. You are outside it watching, and directing how your actor works.
Unlike the SR and BO series, you arent Kain or Raziel, you are a spectator.
IMHO this is a grand design for a game, not a poor one.
W. Raider
12-29-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by ZelenGangrel
How is a game being harder, poor design?
Isnt the point to challenge you? Not that Defiance is by any means a challenge, but still. And your problem isnt all that big, because you're thinking about playing from the view point of the character when Defiance is supposed to play like an interactive Cinema.
Hence the camera. You're on the outside looking in, not assuming the role of the character. You obviously have control over what he does.
If this were a movie, the player is the director. But Kain and Raz are the stars, so the camera is focused on them. In a movie you dont usually see the main character enter a room from behind him. When you watch a play, the characters rarely turn their backs to the audience because the performance must be viewed to be good.
In this game you are watching a story unfold, but you arent in it. You are outside it watching, and directing how your actor works.
Unlike the SR and BO series, you arent Kain or Raziel, you are a spectator.
IMHO this is a grand design for a game, not a poor one.
I totally disagree. An interactive cinema is a game like Dragon's Lair where you just bascially tell the game to play certain cllips in a certain order. It's the visual equivilent to a Choose Your Own Adventure book.
Games should be challenging yes, but moreover -hence the point- they need to entertain. If a game isnt' entertaining then it's not fun and who likes a game that's not fun.
After realising how dissappoiting Defiance was upon playing it for a few hours I basically just continued to find out about the story. I'd have been just as happy foregoing buying it and reading about the story in some FAQ or renting it and using the code to play the FMA's.
Who says it's supposed to play like an "interactive cinema" anyway? If I want that I'll play Night Trap or some of those early FMV games that flopped. Besides there are two distinctions here one being the telling of a story and the other being an "interactive cinema".
With storytelling there is one storyline. With "interactive cinema" there are branching storylines. Which does Defiance have? Having a linear on-rails story is hardly interactive. It's just going thru the motions of interaction yet still leads to the same point. There's no choice in that and that detracts from it's entertainment value to me. You have to look at what interactive means to see where you are getting this in my opinion, incorrect.
Your analogy of this being a film and the player the director is flawed as wel for basically the same reason. Were I the director perhaps I'd want certain events in the game to take place differently, or for certain characters to have a different outcome or fate. I'm not allowed that in Defiance, all paths lead to the same ending so there is hardly any direction, any interaction in my part at all.
I disagree with being a spectator in the game as well. A spectator has no input whatsoever. And by definition you cannot play a game without having some kind of input. You're a spectator when you watch a film, a player when you puppet a character around. There is a difference.
What I'd LOVE to see CD do for future titles is make each game have at least two endings, then the save game is carried over to the next game and you start out where you left off, with the ending you recieved. So ifyou get ending B in game 1, then when you start game 2 you continue with ending B's storyline by loading that savegame. Another player may have recieved endng A and therefore start out game 2 at a different point, with different characters still around or gone with different events having occured.
The communal effect of exploration of the gameworld would be tremendous.
That way the fate of the charaters is in your hands and everyone would have differing experiences. But the world isn't quite ready for this concept yet nor would anyone feel like paying developers for all the extra work.
ZelenGangrel
12-29-2003, 05:42 PM
My thoughts are only flawed by your hatred of what you cant control properly.
Personally, I hated the camera in the original Soul Reaver, but for some reason I loved it in Soul Reaver 2.
But then again, I love the cinematic camera for Defiance. I don't know what all the fuss is about. It really isn't that bad at all. The lot of you seem like you want to start World War 3 over it, and it really isn't that big of a deal.
There was only one time where the camera obstructed my view, making it difficult to get past a certain jumping puzzle. That was at Vorador's mansion.
Also, there IS a first person option which helps alot. For the PS2 you have to hold down the right analog I think.
So yeah... Not too hard if you ask me.
W. Raider
12-29-2003, 06:54 PM
First person on the PS2 in Defiance is useless and seems more like an afterthought. Two things, you can't move or use TK in 1st person and if the cinematic camera is so great why did they include 1st person at all?
Uh... They probably included first person as a crutch So if you were unsure of your surroundings, you could look around from the character's view and take a look at what you were dealing with.
The first person view an afterthought? Is there some super feature that they forgot to add? Hrmm... First person view. I think that means that it is a view from the character's perspective. Yeah, they did just that. I don't see how it can possibly be an afterthought. And it's not that big of a deal that you couldn't TK while in first person view. The gameplay was so fast that if you wanted to use TK on somebody in the first person, you wouldn't stand a chance anyways.
ZelenGangrel
12-29-2003, 07:15 PM
Actually they gave first person so you could stop for a moment and look around explore the great enviroments. I mean, there's alot to see that the camera doesnt show. You should take the time to explore.
W. Raider
12-29-2003, 07:36 PM
I for one go overboard when it comes to exploring levels and areas in games. I'm one of those types that way back in the day I'd refuse to leave a DOOM level until every line in the map was revealed by me looking at it in game.
Acrobad
12-29-2003, 09:22 PM
Can't we just settle at that some people will just never like the camera style, and some people will love it, and that there's absolutely no reason to be all fiery and sarcastic when another person doesn't follow your belief?
Gee, this is almost turning out to be like a religious argument... :P
ZelenGangrel
12-29-2003, 09:35 PM
"THE CAMERA GOVERNS US ALL! BURN THE INFIDELS!"
:D
Death angel
12-30-2003, 09:43 AM
nothing great about the camera.. used in other games for quite some time already... nothing new
Devil may cry, lord of the ring series
Endoskeleton
12-31-2003, 02:12 AM
Originally posted by blincoln
[B]The camera does not change position in mid-jump. The only thing I can think of that would cause that is if someone were playing the PC version and was moving the mouse at the same time.
Even when a camera shift *does* change the controls, it only has an effect if you release the movement control and then use it again. If you keep holding the direction you were before the camera shift, your character will keep moving the same way.
That's only part true... the button holding seems to work only if the camera is changed instantly for a different view. But there are plenty of examples in the game, when the camera just follows raziel and moves to a different angle, thus changing the movement direction even when holding the move button. Trust me, I tested it many times after figuring out the button hold.
Soul Reaver
12-31-2003, 02:36 AM
Aftre reading through this thread I came to a conclusion... I agree with Blincoln... but not entirely because I am a PC gamer and I play FPS and I just LOVE the Defiance camera...
I have not played console games... Meaning that I have tried the consoles but I haven't actually completed any of the games...
Yes the camera does not change mid-jump if you're not changing the angles yourself... Only time when it DOES change is when you jump those LONG jumps with Kain...
Endoskeleton... That's weird... I have tested the same thing for numerous times and the moving direction does NOT change unless you move too far in that direction with the new camera angle... And too far is umm... TOO far...
--Soul Reaver
watercolours
01-01-2004, 06:31 PM
the problem is not about the camera actually. though i don't like these kind of cameras (i am used to fixed back cameras), i can play it. the biggest problem is at the platform sections of the game. it is not good to play the same part 20 times just not being able to jump over 5 metre long water mass. camera angles are so badly placed that you don't have any chance to control it easily in district directions like left, right, up or down. but instead, you have to adjust jumping with degrees and it's nearly impossible with a keyboard. other than that the camera is not so bad. a patch can make it easier if it could make auto-face while jumping over waters or cliffs.
It's pointless to argue that point my friend.
These are definately the worst kind of fanatics, the ones that would crawl through the desert to an oasis and begin to drink from it only to find out it's a mirage and in actuality, sand, but they don't care because they simply can't tell the difference.
ZelenGangrel
01-01-2004, 08:05 PM
The same could be said about your side aswell.
Its a moot point.
Wrong, because we know the difference, hence why we are complaining.
Don't read well do ya. ;p
ZelenGangrel
01-01-2004, 08:11 PM
You are complaining because the play style of the game doesnt fit your paticular skills as a gamer. The system is not at fault, it just isnt what you can use properly.
Place the blame where it needs to be and stop putting it on things. The only person who can determine your abilities is yourself.
There is only a difference between those who can use it properly and those who can not. The system of gameplay stays the same, regardless of which side you're on.
Doesn't fit my particular skills as a gamer?
What particular skill would that be? I mean I beat the game so I figure I have ample enough skill as is. This statement has lead me to believe you still don't get the point but again, that's okay, this is a board, we're here to beat eachother over the head until the person who doesn't get it finally see's with clear eyes.
I place the blame on the people who chose this camera system and touted it as a totally brand spanking new wonder brought to the series that'll make us all happier. (Note: There was sarcasm in this paragraph, www.dictionary.com for those of you who don't know what sarcasm means)
I used it properly considering I beat the game, or maybe I didn't but amazingly beat the game anyway! but anyways the gameplay would probably be, more than likely 10x more enjoyable of the camera was more focused on what the pc can see rather than focused on what the pc looks like. Similar to games such as Prince of Persia, Beyond Good And Evil Max Payne 2, which believe it or not are very good games.
Acrobad
01-01-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by exo
I place the blame on the people who chose this camera system and touted it as a totally brand spanking new wonder brought to the series that'll make us all happier. (Note: There was sarcasm in this paragraph, www.dictionary.com for those of you who don't know what sarcasm means)
I fail to see how this can be effective in an argument while there are quite a number of people saying they like the camera system in this game.
Originally posted by exo
but anyways the gameplay would probably be, more than likely 10x more enjoyable of the camera was more focused on what the pc can see rather than focused on what the pc looks like.
We were lucky enough to get Defiance on PC... Defiance was planned on Console platform first, hence why it was designed to be appealed that way. Thus, there was no point of arguing that the gameplay should be focused on the camera being compatible to pc and all.
The camera system DOES have some flaws, but not many. Some of the "jump puzzles" is the reason why some hate the camera so much. The "jump puzzles" in Vorador's Mansion are the worst, IMO. There SHOULD be a "follow behind mode" for situations like this. Also, there are some places where the camera has a tendency to get stuck and not follow your character properly. Other than that, the "new" camera is great! :cool:
BTW, just for those that think PC gamers are doing something wrong, do a search for camera issues in this forum. You'll find that the camera "opinions" started when Defiance was first released on console. :eek:
Later! :D
xarax
01-02-2004, 09:12 AM
but I think a compromise may be to change the controls (via an option) so that the direction keys are always relative to the player character, rather than relative to the camera's viewpoint.
If I knew that pressing the up-arrow key always meant Kain moves forward from Kain's point of view, rather than the ever-changing camera's point of view, then jumps would be much easier.
I think that kind of patch would be worth trying....
ZelenGangrel
01-02-2004, 09:28 AM
Yes, that would be a better solution. Given that is the way the analog controls on a console version respond.
W. Raider
01-02-2004, 09:33 AM
What CD should have done, as well as so many other design companies with their game is let us, the player, the ones who put cash into their pockets decide via options for controls and camera.
Don't think games have had these kind of options? Play Silent Hill for control perspective options and even older games like Duke Nuken had an optional 1st person or 3rd person option.
No one was silly enough to use, or desparate enough for "new" camera options back then, yet.
A: I don't like the camera system in Defiance for many reasons. Search the boards for my posts on why. B: I don't like being forced to use it when it would not be terribly difficult to allow me the option of trying other camera methods.
ZelenGangrel
01-02-2004, 09:36 AM
In the end, the game is designed the way the people who make it want it to be.
Its their creation, and therefore is made to reflect their vision of the world. If you were making a game, or anything creative, you wouldnt really want 20 people standing over your shoulder and telling you why they dont like it.
Criticism is one thing, but these camera posts have turned into an all out crusade.
Just let it go.
Jurjen
01-02-2004, 09:37 AM
Uhh.. The analog console (and PC) controls are also relative to the camera. The same system all LOK games have always used, as have most other 3rd person games. (Tombraider being one exception.)
The smoothed out digital PC controls work exactly like that. Including the system where, when the camera direction, the player keeps moving in the same direction, until the player releases the direction controls, or drastically changes direction.
ZelenGangrel
01-02-2004, 09:40 AM
Ever seen Kain or Raziel do that little loop turn when you suddenly change directions? :D
W. Raider
01-02-2004, 09:48 AM
Its their creation, and therefore is made to reflect their vision of the world. If you were making a game, or anything creative, you wouldnt really want 20 people standing over your shoulder and telling you why they dont like it.
Actually I would like that a great deal but only if it's more than 20 people. Gathering opinions is different then lame focus groups. Had CD actuallly let is play a "preview" area of Defiance replete with the camera and other problems maybe they would have allowed us the option of different camera systems, or using TK in 1st person mode and other things.
So yes, I would like people telling me why they didn't like it so I could take each opinion under consideration and make the game, book, film, pizza or song better. Albiet, better doesn't necessarily denote "liked by a bunch of people".
Originally posted by W. Raider
Actually I would like that a great deal but only if it's more than 20 people. Gathering opinions is different then lame focus groups. Had CD actuallly let is play a "preview" area of Defiance replete with the camera and other problems maybe they would have allowed us the option of different camera systems, or using TK in 1st person mode and other things.
So yes, I would like people telling me why they didn't like it so I could take each opinion under consideration and make the game, book, film, pizza or song better. Albiet, better doesn't necessarily denote "liked by a bunch of people".
I totally agree. The game isn't being made for the people making it. It's being made for those 20 people looking over their shoulders. They're making the game to make money. If only 1 of those 20 people is happy what's the point wasting your time?
1) The camera situation seems to be totally subjective.
2) I already mentioned why having TK in first person view would be pointless.
ZelenGangrel
01-02-2004, 02:02 PM
Well, having TK in first person was pointless in SR2, so it'd probably be pointless now.
It had no combat usage at all.
It would be like trying to actively use the TK in BO2 on multiple enemies, pause included.
frodo098
01-03-2004, 11:06 AM
What? TK in first person was excellent, I can't even imagine how dumb it would be trying to smash out all those windows in SR1 with the crappy fixed camera Defiance has. It was because of that camera you can't even have any fun with enemies like you could in SR1 and 2. Whenever you want to blast an enemy, Kain or Raz just turn to the left, then you have to turn all the way over to the right and by the time you get a fix on someone, there's an arrow through you're chest. (Or flaming bolt of energy in Raz's case) First person TK was excellent, I don't see how you could find anything wrong with it, it was more than functional and I could have enemies up against walls for hours. They should have just refined it for Defiance so it's more lethal and can kill enemies after a while, you could push enemies off walls every now and then, but it was pretty rare.
Morbian
01-05-2004, 11:28 PM
Everyone keeps comparing this camera to that of RotK... but there's 2 large differences... in RotK, there wasn't even a jump button, so that wasn't an issue. And in RotK, if you were holding your up arrow to move forward, and the camera shifted 90 degrees to your character's side while you were running, you'd continue running in the direction you were, and all other directional commands would work as you'd expect from your character's perspective. In LoKD, in this situation, when the camera shifts, sometimes you keep running in the same direciton you were (and cannot use any other directional arrows till you remove your finger from the one you were pressing) and sometimes you switch to move in the direction the camera moved to. (Maybe this is just on the PC version, I don't know, but this is how it's happening for me. Seems to be affected by how fast you're moving when the camera switches.)
And if you need to take a jump that's not in line with the current camera angle, you have no way to line up the camera or adjust the controls in such a way that you run at, say, a 30 degree angle to the camera. Maybe you can in the consoles with the joystick, I don't know, but I'm using a keyboard and mouse, and you have a couple movement options, all of which are in 45 degree angle increments.
It would have been completely awesome if they'd given us a single keystroke to switch from cinematic to third person rubber band lock (SR2, BO2) style, and let us decide for every situation which would work better. This would satisfy both groups, and allow us to use TK in first or third person as we saw fit.
ZelenGangrel
01-06-2004, 02:42 AM
Frodo I said it was pointless in SR2, I didnt say anything about SR1.
In SR2, the only use for TK was puzzle related, it had no combat ability at all. Unlike SR1 where you could use it out of first person mode.
Eleriel
01-06-2004, 08:48 AM
my idea on a quick-fix would be to have a ... invert cam choice.
if the view you're given right at the moment isn't to your liking at all... then hit a key or button and you're shown things from the opposite side of the battle.
just a thought.
frodo098
01-07-2004, 01:10 AM
I like it if they just did something really simple and let you switch from the fixed camera, to a simple rotating one when you have to do platforming. Sometimes the camera angles are so awful you literally have to guess where you're supposed to jump. I can't wait til I finish this stupid game and just be up to date with the story.
Lady Minerva
01-23-2004, 03:27 AM
Did the developers themselves ever bother to actually test the results themselves? If they did, did any of them ever get sick of missing the same jump so many times, they lost count? A jump that would be achievable
under normal circumstances?
I don't think so. Otherwise, they game would not have such a flaw
to begin with. :mad:
blincoln
01-23-2004, 04:43 AM
I didn't miss any of the jumps in the game my first time through, except for once in Vorador's Mansion and once for one of the Earth Reaver platform sets. The one in Vorador's Mansion would have been tricky from any angle, and the platform one I missed because I didn't know they were going to disappear.
So yes, I'm pretty sure the developers were okay with it.
And as for your W. Raider's suggestion that the developers make the game for the people who are buying it - who is speaking for all the fans now? Most fans loved the game, including myself.
Protector_Malek
01-23-2004, 04:50 AM
same here. I never missed a jump, except when I took a jump to a wrong ledge that was unreachable. And also the first time in chapter one, at the cavern with the pond and the rocks.
But never again.
Glenfx
01-23-2004, 08:27 AM
I really DONT LIKE THE CAMERA, and its due to several reasons.
1.- ive played SR1, SR2, and BO2 and all of those had a camera positioned to follow the main character, so i was specting the same thing with Defiance.
2.- These cameras dont give you the feel of freedom, and even less they involve you in the game.
3.- For the people who never missed a jump.. then good for you, bou the other 99.9% of the people does miss the jumps because of acward camera placement, so that doesnt make the game any good.
4.- The first person button was implemented because they coudnt find a way for people to"admire" the surroundings... so people like yourselves fell into that one. ;), while in a 3d person view you can see what you pleace instead of the use of an extra button.
5.- there could have been implemented options for camera choices activated trough the setup menu, like in Grand theft auto... you can choose if you want to see the game from above bird like, a free camera stile, and the 3d person. So in Defiance the "Wall camera lovers" could have their choice and we the "3rd person camera lovers" could have a choice. And everybody would be happy.
6.- if the game cameras are so good, then why are more people complaining everyday than the ones that are not?
7.- Change isnt allways a good thing.... what would you say if eidos makes Tomb Raider 7 where lara moves like the games of monkey island (by point-click)? or like an old mario plataformer? that would be the doom of the series. So why the radical change in Defiance?
8.- Graphics and story are not the only things we look into a game, gameplay is the most important thing, and this game fell completly there.
9.- the "DEFIANCE" name was supposed to be because of the story between both characters, not because one strugles to play because of the crappy cameras.
Even you... the ones who loved the game have stated that there are a few badly placed cameras...so that prooves my point on all of the above.
and if you want to return your game, tell the people you bought it from, that the game isnt like it was advertised to be... it worked for my refund :D
I really hope for a camera patch, then i would love to buy the game (again) but for the mean time im better without it.
W. Raider
01-23-2004, 10:27 AM
Go Glenfx!
The only thing I'd add to all that is with #8 to me, story and gameplay are closely related. Defiance is a perfect example of this in that the story is well designed and presented but hindered due to below average gameplay.
A game can have a mediocre story but excellent gameplay and still be enjoyable, however the converse of that is not necessarily true. GTA:VC has a good but not great, or at least to me memorable story however the gameplay is so wonderful that it matters little. GTA:VC makes this glorious transisition from being a game to becoming a toy right under your nose and you don't notice it. That's great gameplay at work.
Then you take a game like Defiance which has a great story but mediocre gameplay and you can really see how poorly deisigned gameplay sometimes hinders the whole game's perception in a players mind. Some enjoy the story but don't enjoy the gameplay to get there.
I guess it falls back to that old adage of "It's the journey, not the destination."
The fact that Defiance isn't doing as well as expected sales-wise helps prove that it it isn't broken, don't fix it as well.
I don't remember this many threads about SR1 or 2's camera and most overlooked SR2's game stopping bug on the PS2. Think about why that was.
Now, by changing what was a working gameplay paradigm (yes, I hate that word too but it works) it's effectively alienated a larger than expected segment of the LoK fanbase and sales -or lack of- are reflecting that. Hopefully, if there is another game in the series they've learned from this and will do what they can to appeal to the fans.
Not that they read these boards but I still feel our voices are important both pro and con in regard to Defiance's sudden whim and wibble.
blincoln
01-23-2004, 01:22 PM
that it it isn't broken, don't fix it as well.
This is the mentality that has resulted in the PC games market stagnating into the morass of boring titles that it has become.
Game designers need to take risks in order to bring new experiences to gamers. If Defiance doesn't sell well, it will still be in good company - Ico and Beyond Good and Evil sold poorly for the same reason. They're all great games, but for whatever reason people decided not to buy them. In fact, BG&E probably even sold less copies than Defiance, given that it's already been discontinued.
It is not the camera or any other gameplay issue that you like to harp on so much that has affected sales of Defiance - there is no demo, so potential buyers won't have any idea whether they'll like those aspects or not before they buy it.
There was not a lot of advertising of the game other than print ads in magazines, there was no demo, a handful of reviewers went out of their way to trash it, and a number of trolls frequented the official forums for the game trying to convince people not to buy it.
IMO if Eidos wanted it to sell really well, they should have run ads on TV like they did for SR2, and maybe included posters with magazines like they did for BO2. They should also have budgeted time and money for a demo - that alone would have helped quite a bit.
Lady Minerva
01-23-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally By W. Raider:
Then, you take a game like Defiance which has a great story.
But with this mediocre gameplay, and you can really see just how poorly designed gameplay sometimes hinders the whole game's perception in a player's mind.
Some enjoy the story but don't enjoy the gameplay to get there.
In their all-consuming need to simply show off their programming skills with little actual regard for the gamers, they have forgotten that this is supposed to be a game, not work. I have chores more enjoyable than this frustration!
That's why I doubt the developers bothered to actually sit down and test it. Once they had it fancy and flashy, that was enough.
Like someone said, if it's not broken, don't fix it! And it was fine before!
W. Raider
01-23-2004, 01:49 PM
Sure, Id' agree that games have stagnated. It's happened to many things like the film industry and most of television and certainly all of popular music. However, more than being a trend, the content creators, the artists and so on, are also out to make a buck. They see what sells and emulate it to far too much of an extent.
To me, there's a differnece between refinement and reinventing. Definance tried to reinvent the LoK series instead of refining it based on players feedback.
A quick aside here is that I believe ALL games should have a website with a big friendly candy-like button labeled "Feedback" so the players can tell the companies what worked, what didn't, their likes, dislikes and after ticking a waiver tickbox, their ideas for improvements.
Many companies already do this. Apple for example has built into every recenent app a Bug Report or Feedback menu choice. At their site is a place just for feedback on any given recent app. Also, should an app crash, a "Send report to Apple" window pops up, where you type what happened, and what you were doing at the time, and it sends that and a bit of code to Apple. This is only one example of companies that do this but when have you seen anything like this in a peecee game? Some companies are interested in making their products better based on users feedback, others just want what's in your wallet.
You go to a game's website and rarely have I ever seen an easy, convienent way to provide feedback. Never with a demo that was no labeled a "beta". Why is it that they don't want to know what we think about thier products other than in proven-not-to-work focus groups? Facinating.
Anyways, back to the subject at hand. What I think Defiance did was try to reinvent the game rather than refine it based on what players and reviewers (professional and other) have said about the prior games. CD didn't seem to listen too well. Somethings are better, but a majority are new. Adding new things to a recipie is great but too much New at once will kill it.
Of course rabid fans blinded by their own fanaticisim can't understand this. A case in point is FFX2. But, as always, that's just my tiny opinion.
Bottom line here is that the game companies want to sell more games, want to make better games, want to make better games than the competition. Why the hell aren't they asking those people that are buying their games then what they think? I know I'm ready to tell them. What are they afraid of hearing? Look at Rockstar with GTA. People screamed about wanting motorcycles in the GTA after GTA3. What happened? How many copies did VC sell? The motocycle being, of course, only one specific example in that games "refinement."
Ted Turner once said something to the affect of "Early to bed, early to rise and advertise, advertise, advertise."
In some other post here or somewhere I mentioned that it needs a demo. Then later on, I decided to wonder why there's isn't a demo available. At first I thought because of the scope of the game's story and it's background that new players to the series would be overwhelmed.
Soon after, however, I came to the conclusion that if a companay does not release a demo (even one cheaply, like a DL'able one for peecees) they must have a reason why they don't want someone to sample their product. Probably because they know it's not very good and/or unappealing to all but it's core fanbase.
However, with the advent of HD's in consoles (both current and upcoming) and more and more people playing computer games and being online the demo will be a crucial selling tool.
In fact, there was quite a lengthy discourse on just this subject recently at Sony's Gamer Advisory Panel which concluded that demos do in fact, sell games. Comparisons were drawn to test driving cars, film trailers, 30sec song clips at online music stores, shareware and so forth.
Many people, including myself, came to the conclusion that if a company doesn't want me to sample their game, then they don't want me buying it. I have little compassion for a design company that isn't confidant enough in their product to allow me a small taste of it.
I'm pretty sure that sooner rather than later buying sight unseen or sound unheard will be just a terrible memory people will tell their kids about.
blincoln
01-23-2004, 01:56 PM
For Defiance, there wasn't time budgeted to make a debugged demo. The ones that were shown at E3 and in Europe I guess were too buggy to put on coverdiscs, given that they were from something like six months before release.
Maybe Europe will get one, especially given the amount of time between the North American release and theirs. My impression is that the series has always sold much better over there anyway.
Lady Minerva
01-23-2004, 02:07 PM
1) CD should work on reforming their reputation over this issue ASAP,
starting with LoK: D. This could really hurt in the long run.
2) What a lot of people don't take into consideration with an issue like this
is that everyone has both strong points and weak points.
Mine are mostly in the catagory of combat, and to a slightly lesser extent, some of the more straightforward puzzles. My weak point, however, is things like jump puzzles, no matter the title ("SR1", "2", "BO2", or "Defiance").
The problem with "Defiance" is that the poor camera control exploits this kind of weakness!
Not just in me, but anyone who is weak with jumps. And just for the record,
... I actually never had much trouble with even that before. Up until now, ... I've been a fairly decent LoK player.
And now, suddenly, since this release, I'm not. And it's a real torment. :(
But the previous titles tell me that it's just not me.
A Case In Point:
Does anyone here remember that jump puzzle in SR1, right before you get
to Rahabim territory? I only had to work that thru' twice to get it.
A similar puzzle at Voridor's mansion is taking me a week. *Grr!*
W. Raider
01-23-2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by blincoln
For Defiance, there wasn't time budgeted to make a debugged demo. The ones that were shown at E3 and in Europe I guess were too buggy to put on coverdiscs, given that they were from something like six months before release.
Maybe Europe will get one, especially given the amount of time between the North American release and theirs. My impression is that the series has always sold much better over there anyway.
Anytime a game is in production is a good time to release a demo methinks.
Yeah it has seemed to sell better in Europe. But comparing Europe to the USA is like comparing L.A. to NY. And no, I'm not explaining that any further :)
W. Raider
01-23-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by Lady Minerva
1)Not just in me, but anyone who is weak with jumps. And just for the record,
... I actually never had much trouble with even that before. Up until now, ... I've been a fairly decent LoK player.
And now, suddenly, since this release, I'm not. And it's a real torment. :(
But the previous titles tell me that it's just not me.
A Case In Point:
Does anyone here remember that jump puzzle in SR1, right before you get
to Rahabim territory? I only had to work that thru' twice to get it.
A similar puzzle at Voridor's mansion is taking me a week. *Grr!*
I know what you mean. But I have noticed me getting better with jumping in games. A quick example is the flaming pillar jump series in Tomb Raider in the Palace of Midas. I tried for days to get it then finally gave up, and ended up picking up the lead bar whilst on fire and using up health packs, then diving into the water.
Recently I tried it again and made it my first attempt and, just the opposite of before now I get it every try. Same console, same controller even, same game disc. The only thing that's different is me :)
Glenfx
01-23-2004, 02:35 PM
LOL, so your saying Defiance is only good for improoving your jumping skills for other games? LMAO
Naah!!, i still prefer POP. the best ive seen in a while.
W. Raider
01-23-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Glenfx
LOL, so your saying Defiance is only good for improoving your jumping skills for other games? LMAO
Naah!!, i still prefer POP. the best ive seen in a while.
Heheh, now that's jumping to conclusions! :D
Lady Minerva
01-23-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally By W. Raider:
I know what you mean. But I have noticed me getting better
with jumping in games. A quick example is the flaming pillar jump series in Tomb Raider in the Palace of Midas. I tried for days to get it then finally gave up, and ended up picking up the lead bar whilst on fire and using up health packs, then diving into
the water.
*Arg!*
Oh, I hate that puzzle! I could never get thru' that game without the code that skips levels, but then, you end up missing so much!
Not a very good trade-off.
W. Raider
01-23-2004, 02:56 PM
Tomb Raider, 1 and 2 at least, lets not talk about AOD, was one of the first (and few) games where I could actually sense myself getting better at it while I played.
There was frustration naturally, initially as I memorized the controls, then they became second nature and it was then up to my timing. Once I got the timing down and learned how the gameplay worked (The rule of "three blocks) I could pretty much do anything I set out to do.
It was different than a racing game where you merely memorize where to tap break, or hit the accelerator and countersteer on that turn, I was actually getting a feel for the character in the game world.
Hmm this is off topic...so um...how's this:
However in Lok since there was more combat than exploration I never got this sense of connecting with the character. That combined with the camera I dislike so much really distanced me from the characters I was puppeting around :p
Lady Minerva
01-23-2004, 03:03 PM
Anyone remember that?
Someone came up with a way to make Lara able to swim thru' the air;
you couldn't be hit, you got all your health back, ... and you could get
to some hard-to-reach or even impossible places.
If only someone could do that for "Defiance". :D
W. Raider
01-23-2004, 03:08 PM
Oh yeah I remember that. One was the silly floating bug in AOD and the fun one was the waterjet SCUBA thing (forgot it's name) that if you timed right you could get to fly out of the water and in the room.
There are some moon-jumps for the gameshark cheat device too.
Hmmm....it may be time to keep this on topic by saying that maybe I should mess with some codes for Defiance like that on the ps2.
Lady Minerva
01-23-2004, 03:15 PM
If I was good at hacking programs, I definitely would have come up
with a simulated flight patch for LoK: Defiance by now! If that was available,
there'd be no need for any of these camera-angle complaints, etc. :)
Hey, could someone who is good at hacking *please* come up with
something like that? :D
BTW, I love your sig. A good definition of the LoK: D jump-puzzles!
Drusilla
01-25-2004, 02:11 PM
Lady Minerva, that's *exactly* what I was about to suggest (was about to post a new thread but thought surely someone else has thought of this, and here it is lol) :)
Was wondering if the developers are willing to "leak" the info on how to access the "tester's console" (every game has one, I'm sure), where you can disable the "clip" (where characters can float in mid-air and move through walls).
At least just to get past the frustrating jumps? Jumping/moving around ledges is my only problem.
blincoln
01-25-2004, 02:42 PM
You can do it if you buy the PS2 version and use a cheat device. I very much doubt that anything like it will be possible for the PC or XBox versions.
This is a nice Game but it feels to much like a ps2 game to me.
But at least this type of game has a Camera stays behind button also..
This one could do with that as when doing the jumping timers especially when the Current angle makes the game feel more like a chore then pleasure.
Earth Reaver Stones, Ledges with Spikes, Pillars in Spectral etc.
even normal jumps that should be a breeze become repetitive and well dare i say it (Boring) after awhile due to the dodgy Camera.
Even when fighting you find yourself looking at a wall view instead of the action of who & where you are fighting.
I would love to see this rectified but looking at this forum i get a sense that the word is "you are lucky PC games are still being made, Put up or Shut up"
But it would be a shame to see such a great Game Left or Avoided due to the Camera issue.
I played Blood Omen 2 before this game and it was a pure pleasure, but then when playing this it left me feeling that Legacy of Kain: Defiance was nothing more but a game made for the PS2 where the camera always seems to be the same (minus a Camera stays behind option on this one) and just put out on the PC to shut PC Gamers up.
lastman
02-11-2004, 07:53 AM
Gent, I share the same sentiments as you do
blincoln
02-11-2004, 12:02 PM
I am a little confused as to why anyone would buy a PC port of a console game and then complain that it felt like a console game.
Originally posted by blincoln
I am a little confused as to why anyone would buy a PC port of a console game and then complain that it felt like a console game.
I bought the PC Game as i prefer to play the PC over Console...
but When i buy a Game i always get both Console & PC versions as my Wife likes to whip out the console and play a game while I'm on the PC.
What i miss these days though are:
no longer being able to Play Blood Omen on my XP with a NTFS HDD so have to play the PSX Version (have to not want to)
Even Soul Reaver 1 & 2 (With latest Patches) is a no go on my comp, so again I'm forced to use the PSX/PS2.
My main Complaint (again) is when buying a PC game i expect it to be just that and not just a Twin of the console Version.
(PORT Of A Console Or Not)
This particular Game (Legacy of Kain: Defiance) is the Pinnacle of how a game can be just a pain to play when you are so restricted with viewing or in Moment.
I like to see what I'm running or jumping into and feel Robbed of the action when viewing it from a wall View :)
Also i can only use my PS2 pad with a Force Feedback Adaptor as
my Wingman Rumble Pad and this Game dont mix as the Right Analog Stick seems to be in use stuck to a look around view, and i cant configure the Digital or analog sticks for use.
(PS2 Pad fine and not a PC Pad ? Hmmm)
If you want to see & play a superb example of how a PC Game should be, try Blood Omen 2 It's pleasure to play.
Plus i can use my wingman just fine ;)
blincoln
02-11-2004, 02:51 PM
See, that's why I'm confused. The PC version of Blood Omen 2 plays exactly like the console version.
If you're having trouble with the analogue stick, try using the unsupported patch on my site, there's a sticky thread about it at the top of the forum.
Yea I'm on that, I tried it after having to use the PS2 Pad blincoln
But the problem with The Wingman Rumble Pad is:
The Look Up & Down are on the Throttle and not the 2nd Analogue Stick where the Left & Right Look Is, so it doesn't solve that.
I have to set the throttle in the middle and use that if i need to look Up Or Down rather then the 2nd analogue stick for all look Up,Down, Left and Right (which would make more sense for my Pad)
Shame theres no way to Config them but again....
I still cant config the walk Forward,Back, Left and Right on the Digital or 1st Analogue Stick either.
Maybe that would be another nice option ?
Config the 2nd Analogue stick For all those and to be able to actually Assign the 1st stick & Digital, as would a option to assign a Camera always behind Button.
blincoln
02-11-2004, 04:15 PM
The patch does include a configuration option for the sticks, which is why I suggested it.
You can look in other threads for a discussion of the camera, but there is a reason you can't switch it to a follow-cam - it makes the game unplayable. You can't see a bunch of the areas you need to get to, and you also can't see a lot of enemies when fighting them.
Well I'm on Unsupported-lokd-1_1 and i can tell you when i go to the options controller config i cant config the sticks & there are no other options for the Right Stick etc.
as for the Camera Always stay begind button i mean that you can quickly press for when you are jumping or Entering a Room i dont mean a constant check box or nothing :)
Vampiric Fool
02-11-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Gent
as for the Camera Always stay begind button i mean that you can quickly press for when you are jumping or Entering a Room i dont mean a constant check box or nothing :) Hey, that's not a bad Idea. I like your thinking, Gent. :)
blincoln
02-11-2004, 05:46 PM
If either of you have access to a PS2 and a cheat device, you can try it out for yourselves and see why it's not very useful. There are codes on my site.
Pulverizor
05-24-2004, 12:17 PM
Hi everyone;
It is some time now since I bought the previous LoK games. As an owner of SR2 & BO2 I must say, these 2 are among the best I've ever played - graphics & story-wise.
So as one would expect, after having finished those 2 games I couldn't wait 4 the sequel to come out..
then came 'Defiance', at last :D
but before rushing to the stores, I sought a review over the Net.
and to my utmost HORROR , I found out about the game's camera system - according to every review, it was one of the WORST camera systems ever to have existed on a game
and no wonder - the camera is STATIC!!!!!! :mad: (and full of bugs too, that block the view in countless situation)
No matter how great the game's story, graphics, sound, etc.: the very fact that the camera is static makes the game NOT worthwhile playing (I've tried playing such games before - the fixed camera system ends up making me want to throw the gamepad against the wall grrr :mad: ) - and apparently the vast majority of users share this point of view....
so my question is as simple as they can get: for now, buying the game is out of question if the camera system is going to take away all the fun, so:
will there be a patch that will allow the player to switch to a SR2 or BR2-like camera mode?
In other words, will the developpers realize their biggest mistake ever & release a patch that will make the game worth playing??
Plz??? I'm kinda desperate & I'd luv 2 buy this game.... :(
AndaPanda
05-24-2004, 01:01 PM
Defiance Camera related threads (http://forums.eidosgames.com/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=76863&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending)
The camera is fine, it just takes a bit of getting used to. If you're such a big LoK fan, I'm sure you can overlook this minor "problem"....
Pulverizor
05-24-2004, 01:15 PM
nope I can't tolerate this "camera" or whatever it is :mad:
I know 'cause one of my classmates was unlucky enough to buy it BEFORE he knew about the problem and he let me have a go at the game & I also found it crappy
takes away all the fun. I dunno why the developpers at Eidos betrayed their customers & fans like this but at least I hope they make amends for it and release a patch that will make the game playable. Then I'll take back everything I said :D
Umah Bloodomen
05-24-2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Pulverizor
will there be a patch that will allow the player to switch to a SR2 or BR2-like camera mode?
In other words, will the developpers realize their biggest mistake ever & release a patch that will make the game worth playing??
Plz??? I'm kinda desperate & I'd luv 2 buy this game.... :(
An unofficial patch (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33303&highlight=unofficial+patch) was released back in February 2004, but it does not address the camera. Additionally, as previously stated by Chris@Crystal in this thread. ( )
Unfortunately we will not be able to change the camera in the game.
Thanks.
VMetalBR
05-24-2004, 07:02 PM
the camera issues are the reason i won´t play this game again.... the platforms..... i remember.... evil platforms.... they dodged raziel.... argh
Dark_Raziel01
05-25-2004, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by VMetalBR
the camera issues are the reason i won´t play this game again.... the platforms..... i remember.... evil platforms.... they dodged raziel.... argh
arnt u makin a big deal about this the camera's just fine even through ive played it 6 times.... the camera might be better 4 u this time round coz u hav all ready got the basic hang of it
KainOFthehylden
05-25-2004, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by Dark_Raziel01
arnt u makin a big deal about this the camera's just fine even through ive played it 6 times.... the camera might be better 4 u this time round coz u hav all ready got the basic hang of it
Agreed...Thefirst time I played it, it took me about 10 tries to overcome Chapter 2 but 2nd time I did it from the first one..
Okay take a look at how Prince of Persia did it, and then look at how LoK: Defiance did it.
Same third person puzzle/action game.
One got horrible reviews. The other is now considered a masterpiece addition to a long forgotten series.
It's funny how these fanboys try to cling to a sinking ship even when it's already at the bottom of the sea. Obviously these people who aren't complaining have never played POP else they would come up with a decent reply to it, but alas, there are gamers, and their are gamers.
Pulverizor
06-19-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by exo
Okay take a look at how Prince of Persia did it, and then look at how LoK: Defiance did it.
Same third person puzzle/action game.
One got horrible reviews. The other is now considered a masterpiece addition to a long forgotten series. I second that :) The guys at Ubisoft, at least, know what they're doing...
...but including the PoP cam & the Defiance cam in the same sentence, like relegating the former to the same level as the latter - that isn't very fair to Ubisoft, is it - don't you feel even a twinge of remorse? :D
This is akin to defamation - Ubisoft could sue you for this! :D : D
It can't be helped, I am sick and tired of eidos releases of sequels upon sequels that are merely just ho-hums. Now hitman and tomb raider I've given up on, the closing of the branch that did Anachronox... unforgiveable. But to take SK's child a canadian developer, and spin it like this towards the same gameplay, horrible camera mechanic. It just turns my stomache.
I'm going to shout look at prince of persia's perfected camera system and demand it be taken in as STANDARD for all third person games. I mean that camera system had this, that and the OTHER. Zoom in, zoom out, first person, panning, control, never were there moments when camera control was taken away from you unless it was some sort of scene.
Also of note PoP was designed by Canadians too. Maybe they should sell the LoK license to ubisoft, that way a game that we can enjoy can be made with our beloved Kain. Eidos can keep Raz the hero who got the short end of the stick and continue on with his real world/spirit world get 10 different elemental reavers to open doors for 10other different element specific reaver gameplay.
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