[SPOILER] my impressions of defiance after 2+ hours of play

[lev]

completely different from soul reaver.

I enjoyed SR because of both it's mood, puzzles, story, and great world to explore. SR 2 was sort of a step back from that, but I enjoyed the story in that game so much more. I actually bought the PS2 version after owning the PC version just for the bonus material. The puzzles in SR2 also were solved like clockwork.

The camera in SR followed Raziel which looked awesome when he had the soul reaver. The way he ran almost dragging the reaver. Plus, it rotated on the curvy, narrow passages making it a breeze to navigate the world. The world demanded a keen attention to detail. There were points in the game, especially the city area, where I would just look around and see it there was any other possible way around. And if I looked hard enough I would most surely find one tucked in the background waiting to be explored. The block puzzles were simple, but enjoyable. And a good story based on revenge is always memorable (can't wait for Kill Bill Vol 2).

SR 2 had a similar camera, though I don't readily remember any tight passages requiring auto camera rotations. The environment from the start was hostile starting right where/when SR left off. Right away the graphics stole my heart. It was in the middle of the first in-game cutscene that I knew this game would rock(the one with the time-streamer). The next thing that interested me was that creaching door. Then I tore through the stronghold basically laying to waste some very weak adversaries. And I got to see the same nosgoth in different times. All the while progressing a most interesting story. The murals/artwork were amazing and told a whole story of their own. And the puzzles, especially the fire forge, really made for some great times.

After the two games, I felt I understood the plight of Raziel, who was beyond death. But Kain kept egging a new twist to the story. A twist that completely consumed Raziel at the end of SR 2. Who was the puppetmaster of fate in nospoth? And what were their motives?

But this is all in the past. Defiance has only served to confuse me. Raziel from SR to SR 2 lost some abilities associated with the glyphs and the ability with the reaver itself changed. But certain things stayed the same or were at least explained away. He now was able to go in water, use TK, and as always move to the spectral realm at will. But he always needed to have full health to return. And he would lose all attributes after returning to the material realm. Vast changes would take place between the two worlds to explore. Defiance does away with this last bit. They do fix the whole trouble leaving the water though.

The puzzles are not puzzles. Based on getting the dark reaver, it took me more time finding the climbing wall (which can be climbed in the spectral realm) than it did to navigate through that non-puzzle. The dodge Raziel does (to compliment the mist-dodge of Kain) is the only justification for the odd camera. The camera whizzes back and forth giving me a headache. And the cinematic view make the puzzles and navigation of the world too simple. I want to explore, not be shown the world. If I wanted to watch something, I would watch a movie. Plus in SR 2 when there were blocked paths with the creatures beyond time it worked well. They were fun to fight and allowed for some nice story development. Every other room seems to be blocked by creatures that have to purpose but to lengthen the game. They take many hits to kill and rarely can do any damage.

I think the camera is fine if it worked with the style of the game. Devil May Cry owned. The gun fire to the sword abilities to the devil abilities all looked great and deserved to be cinematic. Defiance looks ok. Most of the the effects look better in SR 2. From the passing through bars to the switch to and from spectral realm. Also Devil Mary Cry had a stationary camera and the map and camera view point was designed not to have anything out-of-sight. Defiance is troubled when the character gets too close to a wall. The game doesn't know what to do. Defiance is not worthy of a cinematic camera, nothing truly worthy is happening, and if that's the only way the graphics were able to be ramped up, then why sacrifice gameplay for graphics.

(Devil May Cry and onimusha, cool beans)

Defiance is a hack and slash type game. It solely revolves around mindless button pounding.

This game just makes me wish for Soul Reaver 3. A game that advances the story (not just rehashing on old relationships between characters...there are only so many times I can listen to Raziel sound like a moron trying to rebel from the Elder Squid...did SR 2 happen?). My key gripe here I don't think the developers of defiance actually ever played either Soul Reaver. I think they should. Maybe they hated the style and didn't like the story. Then decided to do something completely different. This is like if there was a really cool legacy of kain book set and movie, then they made this game to just try to make money off the name.

Defiance did not hold my interest, and the cutscenes only repelled me further.

Further discussion on the camera issue. I don't hate cinematic cameras when it is done right, but it'll only work if there is something to see. Otherwise it will just limit the complexity of the puzzles and make for needlessly inconsistent map design.

your thoughts?


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[exo]

After 2 straight games of Raz's *****ing and moaning and same old puzzles that are sub-prince of persia worthy I believe it's time for them to bring more rpg elements to the game.

I mean when I think back about SR1 and SR2 all I can think of are, are puzzles, I can skim through the story in about the same time it takes for you to get one of the reavers in SR2. The game needs to be directed in a way that gives more representation of the actual world. These tidbit dialogues where the player talks to himself when they enter areas and explaining murals just doesn't do it for me anymore.

The game needs to evolve, they've got the graphics up there top notch, I LOVE how the game looks right now and wouldn't change a thing.

They REALLY need to add more interaction with npc's as well as more fantastic events involving many other vampires. I'm guess I'm just tired of all the everything dead or living is out to get you shtick and between fighting off everything and jump, shove reaver in slot/orb platform jumping make sure things are lit gameplay it's getting a little outdated methinks.

bottom line, evolve the game itself.

[blincoln]

My key gripe here I don't think the developers of defiance actually ever played either Soul Reaver.

The Defiance team *is* the team that made both Soul Reaver games.

I believe it's time for them to bring more rpg elements to the game.

Please, no. If I wanted to play an RPG, I wouldn't be picking up a game from an action/adventure series =P. Even the original Blood Omen was only an "RPG" in the Diablo sense.

[Dogfight]

When I played my first two hours of Defiance, I too was disoriented by the camera. Playing Defiance all the way through the first time I got lost some times because of the angle of the camera view. Playing it my second time through the camera no longer posed a problem because I was used to it. You just need to give the game a chance. The story of the game I saw as the best story ever.

The Elder's behavior with Raziel at the beginning of Defiance has to do with what happened in Soul Reaver 2. The Elder fears Raziel unearthing his destiny and he knows he can no longer influence Raziel as before. The Elder warned Raziel not to defy him in Soul Reaver 2. What happens in Defiance is the penalty for Raziel's disobedience in Soul Reaver 2. Raziel himself at the beginning of Defiance is somewhat lost, he knows his future and he fears it. More than this Raziel has regained his lost free will, which was what Soul Reaver 2 was all about, but now he doesn't know what to do with it. The Elder is then taking advantage of Raziel's weakened state. Raziel himself is using his new free will as a tool of defiance against the Elder. The story of Defiance really follows the story of the previous games in a good fashion, it is a good conclusion with some twists and surprises. I disagree with you wholeheartedly so far the story has stayed very consistant with that of the other games.

I liked the direction Defiance took the series. The TK runes and Health Talismans are needed to raise your levels for the big battles that await you. As you fight, you get experience which will give you new special attacks. It has the most enemies from any of the games in the series except for Blood Omen 1. The enemies are smarter than ever before and coordinate attacks. There are Sarafan, Vampire Hunters, Revenants, Tentacles, Sluagh, Shadow Wraiths, Archons, Cenobites, and Demons. The first three having many different enemy classes, there are even Spell Caster classes which have magical abilities they can use on others ranging from Amplify Damage, TK Shield, Regeneration, Berserk, Glyph Shield, Fire Shield, and Summoning. Then you have your mini-bosses, which are Statues come to life, there are three varieties of these, you will face many of these. Eight Sub-bosses which have powerful magical abilities and the most original bosses with the coolest attacks I have ever seen. If you can get past the problems of the camera, and enjoy the fighting with the telekinesis, then you will have much fun.

[exo]

I mean rpg as in The Blood Omen sense.

A bigger cast. More plot representation. Spells, I mean actual casting ones, not ones that are tied to your swords element and hold down button release stuff...

[lev]

in defiance Raziel takes note of the murals, but in this game they look low quality and don't tell anything near a story. He says that's the reaver and here's the obviously vampiric construction (wasn't obvious to me though). It sounded like they tried to add the keen observations Raziel made about his surroundings in SR 2. And observations in SR 2 were worth making. They added depth to the story and in many cases introduced a new ability or acted as a hint to a puzzle.

It really feels like the same team did the game, but different designers are now apart of the team.

Also referenced in SR 2 was that the Elder Squid was a parasite of Nosgoth and Raziel questioned his place in the equation. Perhaps he was just simply there when Raziel awoke from the torments of being cast into the abyss. Defiance lays this theory to rest with a quick and clumsy "no". Then we find that the squid can do more than just talk. If he could before, why didn't he try something after Raziel refused to kill Kain? Or is this pain mist power some new power that I should just accept and go through the simple jump puzzle. Also what can the mist do to Raz? He's been through the abyss. He's claimed to be beyond death which the squid accepts. While he says there are fates worse than death, what are they...after the abyss. I felt the squid was talking, but this openning sequence brings a new perspective. A confusing, pointless perspective. How much character development needs to be destroyed because this story has no direction.

Raziel and Kain were finally making progress, even if it was a progression to their own demise. But we find Raziel back where it all started with the squid feeding him crap. Kain used to know how to delegate authority, now it seems he is running about like a mere pawn. He continues his pathetic fight with mobius. Kain himself said that mobius is clearly a pawn and serves naught but his purpose as time streamer and initiator of the whole mess of nosgoth. I want to know who are the creatures also beyond time, the ones that pulled the strings. I don't want to defy them; Raziel and Kain have already been trying that.

When I first heard about the next LoK game I was expecting more than a game, I was expecting a story. But so far I've only been dealt with a rehash of what already happened. History is repeating itself in nosgoth in the most unusual ways. And why was mobius so surprised when the staff was able to stop Kain? We already knew about that and so did Kain. And Kain isn't that stupid to be caught in the spiders web to easily.

I don't care for bosses with cool attacks. The bosses in SR made me rip patches of my hair out figuring out how to defeat them. And the time spent was worth it. Making each boss a puzzle was cool.

I had no immediate trouble with the camera. I just felt that it ripped out the exploration aspect of the previous games. Based on the camera, nine out of ten times it is completely obvious where to go next and requires little thought.

The only way I would continue playing is if I intended to waste time with mindless hack and slash. The enemies are not at all difficult at my stage of play yet take an unnecessarily long time to defeat. If this is at all indicative of how the rest of the game will be set-up, why bother.

After playing beyond good and evil demo, I think I'll pick that up. Do a little swap. That seems more interesting. And I already know prince of persia is super fun.

I picked up defiance out of great number of possible games. I really enjoyed the Soul Reaver games and simply wanted more. However, defiance failed to do what I wanted it to do. And that's ok. I realize I'm not the end-all-be-all. Many people, I hope will enjoy the game. Maybe the next LoK game will be more to my liking.

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[exo]

They need to evolve the gameplay. They finally have a good combat system to work with, but this is definitely a rehash of sr2 gameplay with better graphics and a better combat system but in other areas such as story it's still more or less the same if not less.. and the puzzles... my god they are still the same. Get dark reaver to open this door and make sure all the fire places are lit before you leave!

[aznxdarkxromeo]

I personally think Defiance is better then the SOul reaver series.
When I think back to those two games...all that comes in my mind is hours of running around moving blocks and turning switches. Not that the games sucks, its great. But it lacks a bit of everything else. Defiance on the other hand, didn't focus al that much on the puzzles so people won't get fustrated and want to throw up after getting dizzy by the camera. The action part of the game iz way better then all the other games of the series. But it could use a bit more combos. After few days, the combos doesn't seem all that addictive anymore. But overall, the game is great. The graphic is the best I seen all year. BUt the next game really got to try fix the camera problem.

[ZelenGangrel]

I still dont see this supposed Camera problem, maybe my copy of the game just works better than everyone else's.

[kakarot]

I can honestly say I hated the camera and found the combat challenging with raziel the first few times I completed the entire game. I didnt like the camera issues either. At this point, I have mastered the camera and the combat system as I did in all of the previous LOK games. I have no complaints about anything. I spent a mighty long time looking for things that were right underneath my nose, but I was able to complete it without the strategy guide or on-line help. I now feel like I got my money's worth and went ahead and purchased the strategy guide anyway as a collector's item.

$.02

[ZelenGangrel]

I had a problem with Raziel aswell, but its because his combat is meant to be a little bit harder to show the power difference between him and Kain. I think it was mainly the difference in TK ability that really set off Raziel's fighting problems. Kain whipped people around like rag dolls, while Raziel more had to bash through groups of thralls.

[blincoln]

I want to know who are the creatures also beyond time, the ones that pulled the strings.

If you had finished the game, you would have gotten the answers you were after.

[lev]

but after seeing the story up until 2 hours, I decided it's not worth playing to find out. The gameplay, as I've stated, did not hold my interest. I'll just read through the dark chronicles which will probably be posted somewhere. Maybe I can get something from that.

I've already returned the game, but because it was altogether bad. The game just didn't suit my tastes.

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[blincoln]

Two hours isn't enough to get a feel for any game, IMO.

I played the new Crimson Skies game for two hours and thought it was okay. Then I played it for another two hours a week later and got into it so much that I used all my free time over the next two days to finish it.

There is so much that happens in Defiance that two hours will not give you a good idea of the whole game.

But whatever, you already returned it.

[ZelenGangrel]

What a waste...

[Dogfight]

I know some people who complained about Blood Omen 2, saying like you did that the didn't like the story, and they didn't like the gameplay. Then when I finished the game and told them how good it was, they decided to go back and try the game again. When they found out what happens in the game, they regretted ever giving up on the game. Their jaws dropped, and they told me they were fools for ever giving up on the game. It looks to me like you are repeating their mistake.

[exo]

Originally posted by Dogfight
I know some people who complained about Blood Omen 2, saying like you did that the didn't like the story, and they didn't like the gameplay. Then when I finished the game and told them how good it was, they decided to go back and try the game again. When they found out what happens in the game, they regretted ever giving up on the game. Their jaws dropped, and they told me they were fools for ever giving up on the game. It looks to me like you are repeating their mistake.

Well, I half disagree. I mean if he played SR2 so he knows somewhat already of what will be decided in defiance, as well as certain things that were pre-ordained. Perhaps the Hylden would be something that he MAY need to look into as well as one other thing but let's be perfectly honest. What he missed and what took us many puzzles to finally obtain the chance to see can be summed up in less than 3 or more sentences that he missed, and in point form a patch fix list would be SOOOO much longer.

It's ridiculous in telling him he's missing out on a thing oif a life time that is mind blowing because Defiance simply is... not. The story goes on.

[Dogfight]

The first time I played Defiance I was surprised at everything that happened in the video game. The revelations were new and confusing at the same time. I went online to see what was the official word. After reading some officially answered questions by Amy Hennig and Blincoln, which were about a page long, I wanted to know what was really meant by some of their answers. Keeping in mind their answers to the questions, I played the game a second time with subtitles, taking notice of every word every character uttered in the game. I also looked at the murals to better understand the prophecy.

The second time I played the game, I realized the meanings of the revelations, and the epiphany came to me of how big Defiance really is.

The best comparison would be: "A guy finds a strange looking rock in his backyard. He goes back to check it and finds there is much more to the rock. Digging and digging he finds the rock is much bigger. Days pass and he keeps digging, then he finds that the rock is part of some building. He gets other people to join him in digging, weeks later he finds out the rock was just a part of a giant pyramid. The man's world is now forever changed, for he finds that there was a whole ancient civilization were he lived."

Defiance isn't quite such a wonder, but for a video game it is huge!!!! I've written over three pages worth on how Defiance totally changes the perception of the LOK series. It is a gigantic contribution to video game stories everywhere.

Just the relationship between the characters themselves is enough to write a Research Paper. You can't sum up what happens in Defiance or any other LOK game in three sentences, that is just plain nonsense.

Fans here help me out, pointing out stuff I missed because I only glanced at them in the game. If someone isn't committed to really playing the game, they shouldn't play the game in the first place.

Check out the links to what I discovered in Defiance.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=30451

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=30452

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=29804

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?threadid=29451