Long Theories on the Hylden and related topics

[Ranmyaku]

This I've been compiling up in my head for the past few months, and now I think it's about complete, or at least ready to be shreaded to pieces. :p

Anyways, I'll see if I can find a nice coherent way to put all my mental mumbo jumbo onto the screen. :D

Beware, there are major spoilers afoot. :)

First off: Janos

I really don't trust him the way he is in BO2. He seemed really sincere and all, but his actions and words now make me wary of him. He seems to know a little too much for my liking. How did he know what the Sarafan Lord's plans were, and basically everything. I'd except him to know a few things bein their captive and all, but to me he just spouts to much knowledge of the plans of the Hylden.

Second: The Sarafan Lord

He's really creapy, but I'm not here to go on about his looks now am I? Eh. I don't think he was one of the original Hylden that was seeled away by Janos' race. He seems way too cocky, arrogance, and power hungry to be from that particular era. If the Hylden could reproduce somehow in the Demon Dimension, I believe he was born there and was fed many long tales of the war of the Vampires and Hylden, which gave him a deep rooted hatred for vampires.

On to Third: Origin of the Hylden

Once again, going over the dialogue between Janos and Kain, and heard this little bit:

They control the Sarafan, they are striving to wipe out the vampire, enslave all humans and reclaim all Nosgoth as their own.
This is open to interpratation and all, but what does Janos mean when he said that. Where the Hylden the original inhabitants of Nosgoth and the ancient vampire race tossed them out before they evolved to the blue skinned winged creatures they were?

Fourth: The Nexus Stone and the Reaver

The Reaver is the key to the pillars, supposedly the reason why the Hylden were banished to the Demon Dimension.
The Nexus Stone is obviously it's counterpart, which I believe was created by the Hylden to counterattack all it's properties.

The blade can change time when two incarnations meet up under specfic cercemstances, and such. And the Nexus Stone can create portals through time and space to anywhere in Nosgoth, to perhaps change what the Reaver did to change history if needed?

And since the Reaver was changed to devour the souls of it's victims, it would be nature that the Nexus Stone would be able to block that power easily.

*drum roll* Next up: The Hylden themselves and the Vampires

I have the bits of cut dialogue from BO2 (and SR) off of Blinc's site on my winamp list, so it all heads into my subconscious.

I think the Hylden are very much like the ancient vampires. ^_^
Why? They both need humans to survive and help bring up each races population.

I believe the Hylden used to drain humans of their mental energy to sustain themselves and their machines of course. As a curse, the made the ancient vampires prey on the humans in a similar way to themselves. Thus making vampires creatures of the night, feeding on the blood of humans.

To create new members of each race they have their different methods.

Vampires, to my knowledge have had a total of 3. Natural reproduction of the ancients, the blood curse of Vorador's breed, and Kain's soul revival method of his sons and their clans.

For the Hylden it might be a bit more complex. At one point I'm sure they could reproduce naturally (they sure don't have anything down there now. I've seen enough Hylden flip up their skirts at me...), but perhaps as their banishment in the Demon Dimension caused them to lose that, as the Vampires lost their ability to reproduce as part of their curse.

Of course, turn to the humans, to create more of their race. Hence the reasons for the tanks and such there where through the Device holding humans suspended in liquid, and later as the level progressed, Hylden. They must have been experimenting with the glyph magic to change a human into a Hylden, since I'm sure the Sarafan Lord wouldn't be able to bring that many Hylden through the portal to fill the population of the Glyph Wrights, and all the enemies within the Device and the Hylden City even over 200 years. :p

And of course, the demons and monsters where failures of such experiments, but obviously they were so blind to things as they, the Hylden ignored them, since they must have been a bit under their control. On a whim, perhaps, they let some into the city and surrounding area of Meridian to see if they would kill off the remaining vampire population. Or the humans were exposed to too much or too little amounts of glyph energy, causing them to mutate the wrong way. The big purple once having the strongest doses of glyph magic of course. ^_^

Moving right along: Lore and Weapon Powerups

The relics of the ancient race of vampires. I got thinking in this. At first I didn't think they would be that old at first and all since I figured Meridian was a new city, but as I progressed through the game I was wrong about that. I was still curious about the lore and weapon power up boxes. Then it hit me.

I believe they are relics of the Vampire/Hylden war! It makes sense if you think about it. Lore boxes to make each vampire stonger as he progresses throught the city in an attempt to destory the Device within. Obviously the ancient vampires, even before Janos' time, left these to make sure that a vampire would be powerful enough to be able to infiltrate the Device, with the right type of help.


Edit: Ach. How could I do so silly and forget my theories on the Pillars and Vorador. Well here they are before I forget again.


Seventh: The Pillars of Nosgoth

Alright, we have figured out that the Pillars are responsable for keeping the Hylden outta the land but we have no clue as to why the ancient Vampire race died out, or why the Vampire guardians were not sustained.

First lets go back a bit to what I said earlier on the Thirst for Blood upon the Ancient vampires. What if this curse affected the next generation, the vampires that were created with the blood curse or something similar. This curse, as a result of drinking blood gave them immortality, or an even more extended lifetime, since immortalisy ends when time does, so we cannot prove that without getting to some serious math, now can we? ;)

This would make the winged vampires mortal, and able to die naturally, but does not make up for the reason that Janos still lived, but it can. Janos, to me at least, seems to have been quite young when the rest of his race died out, well past maturity, but also after the war with the Hylden. Feed many tales of restoration of the land and stories of the ancient battle, along with his unfalturing faith in his races abilities he would still exist long after his raced died out as a result of natural deaths, or by the humans, with perhaps a Pre-Sarafan army.
And as a result of being imprisoned in the Device (I am still unclear on how this works) he could be blinded by the words of his teachers, and believe that the ancient vampires, even for him, were godlike. Thus explaining his words to Kain in BO2. ^^

Not getting ahead of ourselves are we: Vorador in Blood Omen 2

Ah, one of the biggest plotholes created by the most recent addition to the LoK universe. The appearence of Vorador. I've seen a few theories, but this is more plausable, I believe, even if it's a bit strange. :D

First off lets travel back in time to SR2, to the era of demons and mutants, a time 100 years after Blood Omen has ended. Remember Raz did come across a statue of Moebius in the Sarafan Stronghold, displaying a very grim trophy: Vorador's severed head. (anyone take notice of the latin on the statue? It says "Rest in Peace". I think that's rather ironic for Vory. It should be rest in pieces more like. *snickers*) Well, I took a close look at it and I believe that head up there is really Vorador's head! I mean it's slightly bloody, and looks a bit worse for were and all, but it could really be his head!

Now if nothing had happened to Vorador's body, it could have been stashed away somewhere for all I know, but lets say it wasn't burned or something after Kain had chopped off Moebius' head in payment. It also seems that a vampires body does not decay after death, as witnessed by all the vampire corpses throughout SR2, so I can probably safely say not that much happened to Vorador after his execution.

Now a few years after Raz visits that time, Kain makes his way into the now abandened Stronghold and sees Vorador's head. Get an idea and somehow knowing where Vorador's body is (heck, maybe Kain stashed it away somewhere after BO, I dun know....) steals Vorador's severed head and carts off to where ever the body might be. Using his remaining Hearts of Darkness from his travels to kill the circle, Kain revives Vorador to recreate the vampire race, and allow Kain to have his vampire army.

I think that's it for now at least....

Lesse here, I covered Janos, The Sarafan Lord, the Nexus Stone and the Reaver, the Hylden, the Lore Boxes, the Demons, and mutants, and some other things. And now the Pillars and Vory. If I think up more, I'll post em.

Feel free to begin with the theory shreading. :D

[KainSyndrome101]

Very good theories Ranmyaku. But if I find out that Janos is working with the Hylden, I will be seriously ticked off. I felt sorry for that guy when he got his own heart ripped out!

[warpsavant]

I felt bad for Janos too. =(

You have to wonder what Janos was thinking when he tried to present the Blade to Raziel! Would Raz have stabbed himself right there and Janos save him? Anyway, there is certainly more to Janos Audron than meets the eye.

I think it's feasible that the Hylden were the Superior Race in Nosgoths Ancient Days. They may have made slaves of everyone. The "war" could have been more of a revolution, where the Ancient Vamps and Humans work together to free themselves from the Hylden. Tis why the Hylden cursed the Vamps to feed on Humans, it hurts both races. Suits em good for overthrowing the Hylden.

Lord Kain! Don't let them turn me into a demon!! I don't want to be a demon! Ahhhhhhhhh Okay thats enough babblin.

[Serul]

Those are some pretty good theories Ranmyaku.


Originally posted by warpsavant
I think it's feasible that the Hylden were the Superior Race in Nosgoths Ancient Days. They may have made slaves of everyone. The "war" could have been more of a revolution, where the Ancient Vamps and Humans work together to free themselves from the Hylden. Tis why the Hylden cursed the Vamps to feed on Humans, it hurts both races. Suits em good for overthrowing the Hylden.

You got a good point there.

[Non-existent]

Interesting theory about the Hylden and Ancients. What if, however, the Ancients and Hylden were equals, two seperate Races that came from a common Blood Line who both wanted superiority?

The problem is that every game so far protrays Janos and Co. in a view just like the Serafan presented themselves. The Serafan Murals make Janos look like monsters. The Ancient Murals make the Ancients look like Crusaders fighting a holy war, the one thing to notice is they make the Hylden always appear to be cowering in fear, huddling before the might of the spear and Reaver wielding Ancients.

Notice the SL seems to imply the Blood Curse (if that is what it was) was imposed upon the Ancients after their trapping the Hylden in the Demon Dimension. The SL said something like: It was revenge for what you did to our once fair race; after Janos asks the SL how his kind (the Hylden) could have driven the Ancients from the light.

From the appearance the Ancients are not the good guys, but neither are the Hylden of course. What we have is apparently two sets of 'Bad Guys' trying to appear Just and Holy to the pawns they wish to use (in this case humans and vampires).

Is there anywhere with the entire BO2 dialogue in its entirety? I have searched but come up short, and replaying all the way through certain areas to find a certain piece of dialogue is tedious, to say the least.

Another thing is what if the curse was not the blood thirst like we, and Raz, have assumed? What if it is the weaknesses and loss of wings that vampires seem to suffer from? Young vampires are killed by light (in SR1 at least) while in BO1 Kain says sunlight/daytime makes him weaker and use blood faster.

Maybe the Ancients curse was weakness to water, strength sapping from the Sun, and lack of standard pro-creation methods, thus making the Ancients have to pass through humans, losing their uniqueness of genes and making them nothing but a communicable disease that is to be feared.

[Ranmyaku]

Well, as for the dialogue, I have a link on my website to a thread on the Nosgothic Realm forum were my transcript (with all it's mistakes and types) is.

But there is Dark Chronicle which has the full dialogue: http://www.darkchronicle.co.uk/

[Non-existent]

Ran: Cool, thanks. Didn't check the Nosgothic Forum, and the Dark Chronicle Site is very good too. Unfortunately net searches usually yield about two thousand reviews for a game when the search is for something different.

[Binky]

Oh, these dog days of summer! Sirius stands high on the sky, bringing madness to humans and cats alike... Even the half-crazed felines no longer pretend to be the Queens and Kings of all creation, instead behaving like the mindless beasts that they truly are...

(Akhm. Please do excuse this terrible piece of pseudo-writing... Take it for a sign of my own madness.)

I would tend to agree with NE here: that the Ancients and the Hylden were two equal, separate races - not necessarily having common ancestors; perhaps simply one race arose in one part of Nosgoth, the other in a different part, and in their expansion they met; being the civilised beings that they were, they did not start a peaceful cohabitation, but decided to go for exclusive control of Nosgoth? To call either race "good" or "bad" would have been a malapropism: they both simply vied for control; like everyone in Nosgoth, anyway.

I would imagine this war to start when humans were only half-sentient; the two races warred against each other - notice that no one mentions human allies at any point: not Janos, nor the SL! I would imagine that it was only after the Hylden's banishment, and the cursing of the Ancients, that the Ancients paid humans any heed: as food (the murals show them initially feeding on all types of beasts, after all) and means of procreation... Perhaps when someone discovered that a new Pillar guardian was human? Actually, I would love that first human guardian to be Moebius: this would have made him really old...

Now, I would still think that the Ancients' curse was the "blood" one. Why else would they wait so long for Raziel to complete the Binding? The components for the Binding seem to be the nine pillars (their guardians vampire or human, doesn't matter), the Reaver - and one vampire free of the blood curse as the Reaver guardian. What is it that the Ancients try to achieve with the Binding?

And now... a half-thought: Janos says that by exterminating the vampires, humans did not know what they were doing - because the Pillars were supposed to be guarded by vampires. Well, what if the human Circle knew precisely what they were doing? They had the key to the other dimensions - or at least half the key (the Dimensions Pillar): to make Nosgoth completely human, they had to (a) exterminate the other ancient race, and (b) have the Reaver, to use it against the Hylden, should they ever find the means to return... the Reaver can be used as a weapon by all; it is the other function (the Binding one) that requires a Raziel. Perhaps the human circle wanted the portal between dimensions to remain open - not necessarily because they were allied to the Hylden, but - well, they already had the knowledge and powers of one ancient race, and got hungry for the power and the knowledge of the other: wanted to allow for the controlled influx of the Hylden into Nosgoth, one or two Hylden whom they would keep in bay with the Reaver, and keep for study?

Of course, this are nothing but the musings of a mind half-crazed by heat... To Ranmyaku: I love your theories... Although I still view the Nexus Stone as mainly a plot device. And I would really like to see how, 100 years after BO1 (at the apex of Kain's first empire, or have I completely forgotten the timeline?), anyone would spare the efforts to create a statue of Moebius - and Kain would overlook this? Perhaps Raziel travelled a bit farther into the future than he thought?

[Ranmyaku]

Thank you for your thoughts on my crazied theories, along with everyone else. :) As for Kain overlooking the statue of Moebius, I thought perhaps Kain didn't know what happened to it, and might not have cared that much about it.

And there were a lot of demons in that time, I mean it felt like every 3 seconds there were a pack of em attacking me. :p I just think Kain wouldn't have bothered to attempt such a think till the demon population went down, and he actually got a chance to search the stronghold.

[warpsavant]

As hard as this sounds to believe, Kain probably does not even remember Moebius when he is confronting Magnus. Kain didn't know who the statue was.

[Ranmyaku]

We know Kain remember's Moebius, since he talks about the timestreamer to Raziel, remember? ;) And Kain does remember playing the pawn before as he said in the intro to BO2, so still has some memories of Moebius. And just because Kain didn't say anything about the big statue of Moebius in the room when your fighting Magnus in the Eternal Prison, doesn't mean that he doesn't remember him.

And we are talking about the statue of Moe in SR2 in the Sarafan Stronghold. And in the time between Raz visits the time 100 years after BO, and before Kain is defeated by the Sarafan Lord, so before BO2 even happens. :D

[Non-existent]

Ran: Actually, warp has a point. Considering their shared past it is very odd that Kain does not say anything about the Statue of Moebius, I mean a "I should have known he would have a hand in the building of this place" would be expected. Instead Kain simply ignores the statue. So, warp seems quite likely correct that because of his years of sleep and the subsequent Amnesia, Kain, may not have recovered the specifics of Moeb yet.

[Ranmyaku]

*coughs polietly and points to the bolded text in her last post in this thread* Lemme guess, you guys were just skimming the thread, huh? :p

[Binky]

Heh. I just realised something funny...
100 years after BO1, "the apex of Kain's first empire" as I called it...
If the head is real, and BO2 is about to happen in this timeline...
WHAT EMPIRE?

Kain can't create vampires yet, and Vorador is dead...


So either Kain can create his own vampires, in which case he would find no need for Vorador; which makes BO2 in that timestream somewhat problematic (not to mention can wonderfully screw up the timeline, if Raz is really his firstborn, and not just boasting)...
Or Kain was still only fooling around at this time, not really creating an empire...
Or the head is fake.

LOL, just idle thought.

[Non-existent]

Ran: Actually, I did read what you said, and warp has a point, besides what you are talking about, it is odd that Kain does not say anything about Moeb during the fight with Magnus.

As you said yourself in that same post: And just because Kain didn't say anything about the big statue of Moebius in the room when your fighting Magnus in the Eternal Prison, doesn't mean that he doesn't remember him.
Of which, considering, yes, it probably does mean he does not remember him, because it is highly unlikely anyperson would not be given pause to see the very person who manipulated them into the almost complete extinction of vampires in yet another place.

[warpsavant]

I had no idea what Binky was talking about. Apex of Limbo is more like it.

Why the heck would Kain care about any humans efforts, he has bigger and better things to worry about than who is building statues of Moebius.

But when he see's the statue of Moebius in BO2, Im going with Kain doesn't know who it is.

[Ranmyaku]

Alright, I can agree with that warp. :D

[Binky]

OK, I apologise for being unintelligible...

But I can't agree with Kain having better things to worry about than statues...

Symbols are important. Otherwise, why, when communism fell in Eastern Europe in the 1980s, the first act of many people was the toppling of statues? And why is ordering murals and monuments so popular among dictators?

Heck, why are the people on Coruscant destroying Palpatine's statue in Jedi?

[warpsavant]

Why are the people in Minnesota destroying the statue of Paul Bunyan?

Some things we'll just never know.....


I understood your post Binky, I just got lost at the end.:)

[Binky]

Fine, then. :)

Today's random thought:
The Eternal Prison had to be constructed before the Hylden's banishment, because the Builder is inside; the banishment was the result of the Pillar's creation; there is a statue of Moebius in the Prison...
If the statue was put there because "Moebius had a hand in constructing this place", and not any time later...
Moebius would have to be one of the Nine who actually raised the Pillars. Funny.

[TempySmurf]

I don't think it's odd that he didn't say anything. There were plenty of times in BO2 I was expecting Kain to come out with an "Arnold line" or two and he didn't. For example as he defeated each vampire I expected some arrogant wise crack or another. He either didn't remember or didn't care or didn't notice. I Think the only reason he mentions Moebius to Raziel is because Moebius actually had some dealings with him in SR2. He was a plot character where as in BO2 he wasn't important to Kain. To him, at that time, he's just another dead guy. It is odd that the statue is there, but if it is Moebius, you know they put it there for a reason. Moebius could have always went back in time or had dealings with them in some form or another after it was constructed in any time period.

[darien_specter]

While I can certainly see Kain's memory still being fuzzy in BO2, he obviously remembers who Moebius is by SR; because when Raziel goes into the Chronoplast, and finds the statue of Moebius, he says something about him not looking as dangerous as Raziel expected. So Kain probably eventually remembered everything, and no doubt regaled his lieutenants with carefully edited tales of his glorious past...