Why "Unified Ammo" is a GOOD thing

[iloved2demo]

Counterstrike is one of the most popular "games" of recent years and it has only one ammo type, (well one for pistol and main weapon).

Dont really have to worry about being killed while reloading. I cant ever recall a time where I was shot while reloading that made me jump for joy. Actually this has nothing to do with the ammo, but I add it anyway.

There were times where I held onto the flamethrower or gepgun in the original game, even though I had no ammo for them. There were times where certain parts of the game were close to impossible to traverse as a result, I still made it through but it made it frustrating rather than fun.

I never even noticed that there was unified ammo in the demo until I came to the messageboards, so it obviously has no ill effects on gameplay.

[mvrander]

Every single gun in CS has unique ammo, nevermind types of gun and types of ammo. You cannot transfer ammo from one gun to another. If you run out of ammo in your primary weapon you have to switch to your secondary or pick up another weapon with some ammo in.

The first time I played cs and I saw someone throw away an empty gun and pick up a weapon off the floor I was stunned. It was such a step up from the likes of Doom and quake.

In DX2 you will never need to use any weapon other than the best one you have at that time, if you run out of ammo in your main weapon you have run out in your pistol as well and your flamethrower and your crossbow etc.

I personally liked the demo and don't hate the unified ammo but your example made no sense.

[Random]

Unified ammo, in my opinion, is good because it lets you choose the weapon you want to use -- not the weapon you've managed to pick up enough ammo for. Player choice. I can take down enemies any number of ways using the weapons I have and don't have to worry about ammo levels. Personally, I like that.

However, some form of reloading would still be good, in my opinion: 1) it gives a more tactical approach to gunfights because you have to plan your attack, and 2) it's too easy to run out of ammo with no reloading: if you have to pause to reload, you have way of knowing how many clips you have left. I don't know if reloading could work well with unified ammo, but if it could, it should, I think.

Some people can't suspend their disbelief enough to accept unified ammo, which is understandable and unfortunate.

[ABRAXAAS]

I like it to i like shooting 10 gaurds with the boltcaster and be able to pick up there ammo, and use it cause there always carrying machin guns and stuff, it actually make the game more fun, now you "CAN" trully play how you want.

[ABRAXAAS]

PS: dont bring CS into a conversation where your trying to defend a game for being like it..my god i cant beleive people still play that crap, people really should be shot for playing it still its such garbage.

[Agent D]

Originally posted by ABRAXAAS
PS: dont bring CS into a conversation where your trying to defend a game for being like it..my god i cant beleive people still play that crap, people really should be shot for playing it still its such garbage.

... I completely agree... however, it's combat system is still better than the Deus Ex 2 demo. :rolleyes:

As for unified ammo, I still don't like any aspect of it.

[ABRAXAAS]

Originally posted by Agent D
... I completely agree... however, it's combat system is still better than the Deus Ex 2 demo. :rolleyes:

As for unified ammo, I still don't like any aspect of it.

dont even try to compare the combat system for a strictly multiplayer game to a strictly single player game, its like apples and oranges.

[TehFreak]

and the whole thing about cs's ammo system making sense, whereas dx2 is designed to be as simple as possible

[Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames]

Originally posted by TehFreak
and the whole thing about cs's ammo system making sense, whereas dx2 is designed to be as simple as possible

Well... yes. that's what the developpers have been saying since the beginning.and I agree with Random, there were time in DX1 where I HAD TO use the gun, because I had no ammos left for the sniper rifle, although I was untrained in pistol and advanced in rifle.

In DX2 you will never need to use any weapon other than the best one you have at that time

I don't think so. you will use the most adapted weapon for a situation. if your rocket launcher uses 10 times more ammos than your pistol, you won't use it as often.

where I disagree with Random is : I don't think the time it takes to reload changes much in the course of a gunfight, so I don't think you have to change tactic if you don't have to reload.

(the fact that you can run easier out of ammo, though, i didn't think about that)

[Random]

Originally posted by Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames
where I disagree with Random is : I don't think the time it takes to reload changes much in the course of a gunfight, so I don't think you have to change tactic if you don't have to reload.


Not really change tactic, but just think more before you act. You can't just run in with 5 clips of ammo; you effectively only have 1 if you have to retreat and reload. The current system is not like the minigun from Predator or something, which is what some people are making it out to be; but I think reloading would have made gunfights more intense.

[Red_Carnage]

I'm still not completely convinced about the unified ammo discussion.
Sure, it saves you time while you don't have to reload, always handy in a ambush
Sure, it beats looking in every nook and cranny for those elusive Tranq darts (or fill in whatever type of ammo u used the most)

On the other hand, run out of ammo and you SOOO.......screwed (i was gonna place another word there...but i won't:p).

As for the GEP Gun thingie...it's one hell of a lockpick, but that's all i used it for (apart from some spiderbots/guard bots who pissed me off).

So basicly i aggree with yall in some way...and yeah...CS should not be mentioned in the same sentence as OUR game.
Deus ex (see, not the same sentence :p)

[mvrander]

In a gunfight and having to drop into cover to reload your gun with bullets pinging into cover all around you. It's a good experience in paintballing, cs, deus ex, halflife, battfield and countless others and I do feel it has been lost.

Having unified ammo shouldn't mean that having to pause to add new ammo to the gun has to be removed. You do get a display of number of clips left in the demo, sadly it just skips on past the actual reloading and just displays the ammo from the next clip.

And abraxxass you really shouldn't insult things you clearly don't understand. The reason cs is still the single most popular online game after 3 years is the simple yet effective gameplay, which includes the combat. Wether you personally enjoy it or not doesn't change the fact that it works. It has precious little to do with DX:IW and I have no idea why the thread starter mentioned it but CS bashing became en vouge a couple of years back for forum trolls everywhere. I wouldn't want to have to class you with them.

[Random]

Originally posted by Red_Carnage
On the other hand, run out of ammo and you SOOO.......screwed (i was gonna place another word there...but i won't:p).


Not necessarily. Melee weapons or simple stealth work quite well for me in the demo. http://forums.eidosgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif But I do think that some sort of indicator that you're getting low would be good. There are audio indicators when health and bioenergy get low (heart beat and beeping, respectively), so there should be something similar for ammo.

[Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames]

yes, like in DX1, when the ammos numbers where red instead of green, you were running low.

[BrainPrawn]

Why is unified ammo a good thing?

Unified ammo gives you all the benifits of having multiple ammo types and much more.

I think the unified ammo will actually make you think more. You will have to think about the weapon and how many nanites it uses and then make the decision on what you want to fire.

Remember needing that GEP in DX and being out of ammo when you had plenty of 9MM bullets left? Being locked into separate ammo types was a pain.

*Here is some proof with a loose mathematical theorum... (No its not perfectly accurate but the theory itself is. )

Lets say the GEP uses 20 points and that 9MM bullets use 5 and the shotty uses 10.

Old system ammo = 100 nanite points.
1 GEP = 1 shot
1 clip 9MM = 10 shots
3 shotgun rounds = 3 shots.

Thats it. Thats all you get. If you really need the GEP and you fire and miss, you may be in some serious trouble.

New unified system equivalent:
A big bag of nanites = 100 nanite points.

You have the equivalent of...

5 GEP shots
or
4 GEP shots and 1 clip of 9MM and one shotgun shell.
or
3 GEP shots and 4 clips of 9MM and 2 shotgun shells
or,
or,
or... (There are way too many possibilites to list here)

And last but not least, you can have...

1 GEP shot, one 9MM clip, and 3 shotgun shells.

When it is me out there trying to save the world, I think I will take the new ammo system, thank you very much.

[mvrander]

Are you trying to say that you think more choice is better or that easier is better?

I could agree on a freedom of play level but saying the unified ammo is better because it means you won't run of ammo for a particular situation just seems wrong to me. In other games if you want to use your rocket launcher on tanks you save the shots from it and use a pistol or rifle on guards, in dx:iw it looks like you'll be freely using what you want against who you want, when you want. Wether that is a good or bad things seems to be taking the whole of these boards a lot of deciding.

[Le`Sauveur`De`Ces`Dames]

Originally posted by mvrander
In other games if you want to use your rocket launcher on tanks you save the shots from it and use a pistol or rifle on guards, in dx:iw it looks like you'll be freely using what you want against who you want, when you want.

well, no. if you start GEP-gunning guards, you will be out of ammo so fast you won't be able to shoot the tanks.

so you will still have to use your gun on guards.

by the way, they did exactly the same thing in DX1, though they did it another way : you couldn't find as much ammos for the gun than for the sniper rifle, you could find even less for the GEP gun, etc. that was a way to say "this is a powerful weapon, but you will have to choose when you use it". here, it will be exactly the same : you will have powerful weapons, but you will have to choose when to use them

[Velax]

I think part of the problem is that they chose to have both a unified ammo system *and* no reloading. If it had just been the unified ammo it probably wouldn't have been as bad, but with both it just harms the "suspension of disbelief" of the game too much. I'm used to the need to reload in every FPS game I've played previously, therefore that's what I expect when I play any new FPS. Having that just taken away with little explanation is too jarring for me to find it believable.

If they put back in reloading, I'm willing to bet a lot of the people annoyed at the unified ammo system won't find the problem so bad anymore.

[Bonk]

Reload should be added back in and there should just be a key to do it but the reload requirement should only become available when you put the game on harder difficulty levels like realistic

This way you wont have the extra casual types complaining about hitting the reload key

Also remove the lights coming from the security cameras and other things on realistic level please :D

[Geist]

Bah I already said it in other threads...

Its called oppurtunity cost BrainPrawn does a good example showing it.

I don't claim the new ammo system to be better or worse than DX1. I just claim that you will have to think about how you use the ammo and it will still be somewhat strategic.

~Geist

[James Warren]

I have always liked science fiction for the exploration of plausible concepts that either could happen or are bound to happen in *some* form in the future. The key to good fiction, of course, is that fictional plausibility plus "reader" imagination equals the suspension of disbelief that allows for immersion in the story. This plausibility is different for different "readers." I am, therefore, sympathetic to those who see weapon models in the game that look and sound exactly like present day chemical cartridge firing guns and say that unified ammo is not a plausible concept to them.

For me, however, unified ammo is one of those concepts that are *bound* to happen in the future. What military will NOT adopt it the *instant* it becomes available? [That's a rhetorical question, the LOOSING side of course!] The evidence for plausibility is here in the real world already, I think. We have an emerging nano technology already. Tools and machines already exist that bring us tantalizingly close to being able to crack open a rock, read the amino acid sequence of the fossil, type the sequence in to a chemical machine to produce the DNA strand or, better yet, the very proteins that the DNA program exists to create. Rock to long extinct creature via keyboard-computer-chemical synthesizer coming to a lab near you soon.

For me, then, the Invisible War weapons are analogous to DNA strands that compile from the very same small set of amino acids completely unique proteins and therefore completely unique animals and plants. The IW weapons, in my mind, compile small sets of universal materials into unique nano machines that imitate specialized ammo. It's easy for me to go there in my imagination. If it isn't for you then I remain sympathetic and genuinely so, I'm not right and you're not wrong.

I do think, in agreement with many here, that adding some kind of feedback for ammo usage would add to the fun of the game however. Reloading of clips or some kind of warning when a clip is used would add to the feeling of how quickly you were burning through your ammo and remind you of the need to conserve. I also don't fully understand HOW the developers are implementing the use of the clips in the various weapons. You pick up a weapon from a dead enemy and it doesn't seem to have a clip in it!? What happened to the clip your enemy was just using on YOU. Is it attached to his belt by a big ol' chain like a tattooed bikers wallet?

[Devin the Dude]

agreed 100% the only way unified ammo, and not having reloads would work is if it was justified like the above.

[Viking2]

Originally posted by iloved2demo
Counterstrike is one of the most popular "games" of recent years and it has only one ammo type, (well one for pistol and main weapon).

Dont really have to worry about being killed while reloading. I cant ever recall a time where I was shot while reloading that made me jump for joy. Actually this has nothing to do with the ammo, but I add it anyway.

There were times where I held onto the flamethrower or gepgun in the original game, even though I had no ammo for them. There were times where certain parts of the game were close to impossible to traverse as a result, I still made it through but it made it frustrating rather than fun.

I never even noticed that there was unified ammo in the demo until I came to the messageboards, so it obviously has no ill effects on gameplay.
This proves exactly the points of all the bashers in this forum, such as myself. "I don't have to be killed while reloading". Well, play it on easy then. Counterstrike is your typical run-and-gun shooter, so the fact that there is unified ammo in counterstrike is a bad thing. If Deus Ex:IW is to like counterstrike, it won't be as good. In fact, it will be bad.

[HKRaven]

Im not against the thought of unified ammo. As stated above it's something bound to happend in the future. Also it kinda gives to feeling that time has passed seens the "old" time back in DX. However i'd like to see reloading. The way i see it the "magasines" in DX2:IW are basicly batteries for the device inside the gun that makes the bullets and there for a reload animation where he changes batteries would be kinda cool ;)

[Viking2]

Originally posted by James Warren
I have always liked science fiction for the exploration of plausible concepts that either could happen or are bound to happen in *some* form in the future. The key to good fiction, of course, is that fictional plausibility plus "reader" imagination equals the suspension of disbelief that allows for immersion in the story. This plausibility is different for different "readers." I am, therefore, sympathetic to those who see weapon models in the game that look and sound exactly like present day chemical cartridge firing guns and say that unified ammo is not a plausible concept to them.

For me, however, unified ammo is one of those concepts that are *bound* to happen in the future. What military will NOT adopt it the *instant* it becomes available? [That's a rhetorical question, the LOOSING side of course!] The evidence for plausibility is here in the real world already, I think. We have an emerging nano technology already. Tools and machines already exist that bring us tantalizingly close to being able to crack open a rock, read the amino acid sequence of the fossil, type the sequence in to a chemical machine to produce the DNA strand or, better yet, the very proteins that the DNA program exists to create. Rock to long extinct creature via keyboard-computer-chemical synthesizer coming to a lab near you soon.

For me, then, the Invisible War weapons are analogous to DNA strands that compile from the very same small set of amino acids completely unique proteins and therefore completely unique animals and plants. The IW weapons, in my mind, compile small sets of universal materials into unique nano machines that imitate specialized ammo. It's easy for me to go there in my imagination. If it isn't for you then I remain sympathetic and genuinely so, I'm not right and you're not wrong.

I do think, in agreement with many here, that adding some kind of feedback for ammo usage would add to the fun of the game however. Reloading of clips or some kind of warning when a clip is used would add to the feeling of how quickly you were burning through your ammo and remind you of the need to conserve. I also don't fully understand HOW the developers are implementing the use of the clips in the various weapons. You pick up a weapon from a dead enemy and it doesn't seem to have a clip in it!? What happened to the clip your enemy was just using on YOU. Is it attached to his belt by a big ol' chain like a tattooed bikers wallet?
Interesting. However, it's one thing to use nanotechnology the way you described, and another to create completely new matter in less than a second. It's not easy to make enough napalm in a flamethrower to burn down legions of guards in the 0.3 seconds that follow your pressing the trigger using nanotechnology. It's not easy to do that. I don't think it will actually ever be possible. Even if it is, however, many things will be possible; if nanotechnology does allow for this ammo system, all of the most advanced militaries in the world would readily adapt it. However, it is such a far-fetched idea, that I doubt it will become available; it is not the fact that people are choosing to use it that bothers me, but the fact that it is there in the first place. In order for a science fiction boook to be truly good, it has to be a kind of extension to reality. It should describe the next plausible, logical, and obvious step in technology that builds upon what we already have. Unified ammo is far in the future, possibly centuries away. The reader (because the Deus Ex games are in many ways like books) is, in my case, estranged with the game on this point. It's just too ridiculous, or too much of an unbelievable and far-in-the-future idea to be interesting. It's a little like time travel. Interesting, yes. Believable? No. Deus Ex is all about immersion, and that needs its plot to be a plausible one. Before someone points out that the spy drone in DX1 was, in fact, manufactures by nanobots, keep in mind that even that took something like 30 seconds or a minute to build. Even the spy drone, however, was a bit far-fetched. The reason no one had a problem with it was because it wasn't used that often, and because it didn't have the constant effect on the player's gaming experience that ammo and ammo management has.

[EDIT]Im not against the thought of unified ammo. As stated above it's something bound to happend in the future. Also it kinda gives to feeling that time has passed seens the "old" time back in DX. However i'd like to see reloading. The way i see it the "magasines" in DX2:IW are basicly batteries for the device inside the gun that makes the bullets and there for a reload animation where he changes batteries would be kinda cool
"Something is bound to happen in the future"? What? I'm sorry, but I have to say that that is not the way to be thinking about things. I mean, just think about it for a second. Many things are bound to happen in the future. Hell, in the future, eventually, we may have the ability to breathe underwater, or live on Mars. However, that is very far into the future. Things that are bound to happen can happen sooner, or later. If it's sooner, that's not so bad. However, if it's later, it's just not believable. It's like telling a caveman about TVs. Of course he's not going to believe you (if somehow you can communicate with him), but TVs were still "bound to happen". This is only 2072, folks. Not even a century from our present time. Things like unified ammo will most likely not be available for a much longer time. I know, the human augmentation system that Alex has may not be available for a long time either. However, that was a core of the game, something that couldn't be taken away because the augmentations were such an important part of the storyline. After all, how could any normal secret agent change the world like JC did? It supports the plot, rather than making it worse. Besides, a little bit of far-fetchedness isn't too bad, every once in a while.

[dking2]

My opinion on the matter, as a player of the original game and now the new demo:

Unified ammo is weird, and too simple. People argue it's a good thing because it gives you more options. Well, ya, you no longer have to worry about conserving categories of ammo in the same way you did in the original game, but for me this is a bad thing. It's a removal of a tactical complication, which is part of what makes this type of game fun.

And another thing: (and this applies to the 'suspension of disbelief' issue) if people are using this super-duper ultra-leet ammo, why are we still toting around half a dozen different guns? Why not one or two weapons? For example, a pistol/boltcaster/stunprod combo, or a shotgun/assault rifle? Why this awesome, magical ammunition yet still the same traditional weapons? It seems to me that this ultra-efficient, 'universal' ammunition could (indeed should) be paired with ultra-efficient, modular weapon systems. It would be logical, in my opinion at least.

But then game tactics would become even more simple... You have one gun (or a big gun and a small gun), and just press a button to cause them to function as a sniper rifle, or a flamethrower, or whatever. The result is that tactical decisions are turned into a lowest-common-denominator "how much ammo-juice do I have?" situation. And that would just be boring. Or not... there seems to be fans of every play style. This is just my take on the situation.

[MaxxQ]

Originally posted by Viking2
"Something is bound to happen in the future"? What? I'm sorry, but I have to say that that is not the way to be thinking about things. I mean, just think about it for a second. Many things are bound to happen in the future. Hell, in the future, eventually, we may have the ability to breathe underwater, or live on Mars. However, that is very far into the future. Things that are bound to happen can happen sooner, or later. If it's sooner, that's not so bad. However, if it's later, it's just not believable. It's like telling a caveman about TVs. Of course he's not going to believe you (if somehow you can communicate with him), but TVs were still "bound to happen". This is only 2072, folks. Not even a century from our present time. Things like unified ammo will most likely not be available for a much longer time. I know, the human augmentation system that Alex has may not be available for a long time either. However, that was a core of the game, something that couldn't be taken away because the augmentations were such an important part of the storyline. After all, how could any normal secret agent change the world like JC did? It supports the plot, rather than making it worse. Besides, a little bit of far-fetchedness isn't too bad, every once in a while.

Well, think of it this way. In five more days, it will be the 100th anniversary of the first heavier-than-air, powered and controlled flight made by the Wright brothers. Who would have thought 100 years ago that in less than a lifetime from that point (only 66 years), man would be walking on the moon? Only a few years before the Wright brothers made their mark on history, a certain H.G. Wells wrote a story about going to the moon. Science fiction. Granted, it didn't happen the way he depicted it (Cavorite still hasn't been invented), but the idea of going to the moon was so preposterous that no one believed it would *ever* happen, let alone happen in the same century.

Another example - Star Trek. A science fiction series that ended the same year that we first landed on the moon. Communicators? Nice idea, but totally unrealistic. How could something the size of a pack of smokes allow a person to talk to someone in orbit? What do we have now less than 40 years later? Cell phones that allow me to call my buddy in Australia (if I had one), for less than the cost of a call to the next state by landline.

Transporters? No way *that* will ever happen. Guess what? Researchers have already done it. Granted, they've only done it with a few atoms or molecules, and just across a lab, but it's very possible. All that remains is refinement of the process - reducing the enegy cost, simplifying the equipment required, and so forth.

"Warp drive"? Well, let's just call it faster than light travel. Einstein says it's not possible, but some theorists and researchers are now questioning that, and saying that it *may* be possible.

I, for one, have faith in the ingenuity of the human mind, and believe that *anything*, no matter how far-fetched, is possible. Yes, even unified ammo with no reloading. All anything like that needs is money, sweat, resolve, and a dream (not necessarily in that order) to make things better, or do things no one has ever done before. Sure, some of what I've mentioned make take a long time, but man's greatest achievement so far (landing on the moon) happened less than a century after man's first flight. Our knowledge increases almost exponentially with each passing generation, and with the help of the newest computers and the next generations of them, things will happen faster than you might think. 34 years ago, the computer on board the Apollo spacecraft had less computational power than that digital writwatch w/built-in calculator you can buy for $10 at the local Wally World.

Anything is possible, and it will happen sooner than we all think.

Edit: I just wish I could live long enough to see it all happen...wait, *that* may be possible, too... :D

[MaxxQ]

Originally posted by dking2

And another thing: (and this applies to the 'suspension of disbelief' issue) if people are using this super-duper ultra-leet ammo, why are we still toting around half a dozen different guns? Why not one or two weapons? For example, a pistol/boltcaster/stunprod combo, or a shotgun/assault rifle? Why this awesome, magical ammunition yet still the same traditional weapons? It seems to me that this ultra-efficient, 'universal' ammunition could (indeed should) be paired with ultra-efficient, modular weapon systems. It would be logical, in my opinion at least.

Good point.

But then game tactics would become even more simple... You have one gun (or a big gun and a small gun), and just press a button to cause them to function as a sniper rifle, or a flamethrower, or whatever. The result is that tactical decisions are turned into a lowest-common-denominator "how much ammo-juice do I have?" situation. And that would just be boring. Or not... there seems to be fans of every play style. This is just my take on the situation.

Yes, it probably *would* be boring with just one or two weapons (although Halo players seem to enjoy only being able to carry two weapons), but maybe that's why the devs decided to still have several different weapons to choose from, for *gameplay* purposes. To make it more fun, and to allow the player to choose what weapons (s)he wished to use. IMO, the whole thing seems to be six of one, a half-dozen of the other. Some will like it, some will hate it, some won't care.

I fall into the latter category.

[Zeus]

Yeah I always thought it was so cool that JC could fit a million types of ammo in his pockets in his leather jacket. Especially that gep gun ammo.

Even though this isn't part of the topic. I'd like to say something about hacking. You people are complaining about how you no longer have a choice of guessing passwords in the ATM. Well for one thing, did you ever sit there for 5 hours guessing passwords or did you click "hack" at the top corner. I'm sure it's the second one. Another thing, the demo is at top hacking skill biomod. When you walk up to an atm it says "r-mouse to hack". Are you really that dumb that you didn't notice it says "r-mouse to HACK "

It's like you people find the gayest things to complain about this game. "wahh I shot the guard and he didnt kill me wahhh" or "wahhh unified ammo I actually have to conserve my ammo instead of running around shooting my 9mm pistol at random people wahhhh". The only thing I can understand the complaining about is the lack of headshots. That's it.

[Bronzie]

I think Unified Ammo is the reason to blame for lack of reloading. Having not played the demo as of yet, I cannot say whether this is good or bad in my opinion. However, Deus Ex 1. When you reloaded, you put in a clip or whatever to the gun, which in most animations, was visible or something along those lines. However, in Deus Ex 2 you have unified ammo. The chances are the clip would end up looking different in every gun, then you'd all whinge about that. So basically, how can the developers do some decent reloading animations by having a clip that will fit the same in every gun? A rocket for the launcher clearly wont look the same as a clip for the pistol, nor the boltcaster. So there's another problem they have.

[PapaMuskrat]

Let me sum up my feelings. Unified ammo is good. Segregation of ammo would make one type less common ammo jealous of... say.. the 9mm bullet. Then the other ammunition, say, Napalm, would beat the crap outta the 9mm and then poor lonely Napalm would be sued for a hatecrime. Its like... the world would have no racism if everyone was the same color. ( I personally would like everyone to be green:D ) Also.. Max's post is too long and makes it less likely mine will be read... so look into that. Stupid space whore.

[Velax]

Originally posted by MaxxQ
Well, think of it this way. In five more days, it will be the 100th anniversary of the first heavier-than-air, powered and controlled flight made by the Wright brothers. Who would have thought 100 years ago that in less than a lifetime from that point (only 66 years), man would be walking on the moon? Only a few years before the Wright brothers made their mark on history, a certain H.G. Wells wrote a story about going to the moon. Science fiction. Granted, it didn't happen the way he depicted it (Cavorite still hasn't been invented), but the idea of going to the moon was so preposterous that no one believed it would *ever* happen, let alone happen in the same century.

ETC

ETC

ETC

All you're doing is providing historical evidence of how people are fully justified in thinking that unified ammo/no reloading is wrong and harms the suspension of disbelief.

We can look back and laugh now about how wrong people were when they said man would never walk on the moon, or at the guy that said there will only ever be seven computers in the world, but we can only do that because we live in the future of those times and have seen those statements proven wrong. It's much harder to be able to look decades, even centuries, into the future and think that perhaps there will be a time when all weapons will use the same ammo and won't need to ever be reloaded. Especially when we're so used to not having those things in every other RPG or FPS.

[Velax]

Yes, it probably *would* be boring with just one or two weapons (although Halo players seem to enjoy only being able to carry two weapons),

There's quite a big difference there. dking2 is talking about only ever having two weapons, period, with each weapon having many different functions. In Halo, while you could only carry two weapons at any one time (aside from grenades), there were still a lot more than just two weapons in the game. And you needed to switch weapons based on what enemies you were fighting, given that a shotgun (for example) was just that. A shotgun. It wasn't a shotgun/flamethrower/assault rifle.

[MaxxQ]

Originally posted by Velax
There's quite a big difference there. dking2 is talking about only ever having two weapons, period, with each weapon having many different functions. In Halo, while you could only carry two weapons at any one time (aside from grenades), there were still a lot more than just two weapons in the game. And you needed to switch weapons based on what enemies you were fighting, given that a shotgun (for example) was just that. A shotgun. It wasn't a shotgun/flamethrower/assault rifle.

I understand that, and agreed with him that it would be logical to do that. But Ion Storm has always said that the game was about choices, and having only one or two weapons, albeit multi-use weapons, would sorta limit choices.

Not to mention the additional uproar that would come from all the people already raising hell about the unified ammo and everything else in the game :D

[IconoclastDX]

Dont you guys understand?? Sure its "nice" to always have the type ammo you want. Its also nice when guards stands still for a clean snipe. Its also nice when you have a multitool when you need one. But if you ALWAYS have the ammo you want or ALL the guards stand still for yo to snipe, or if you ALWAYS have enough mutitools to get where you need to, the game gets COMPLETELY BORING. Unified ammo is like almost having an ammo cheat enabled. Learning to think and invent ways of coping with the situations at hand, ammo shortages and all, is what makes intellegent gaming FUN and ENGAGING!

Look, If the devs wanted you to always have the type of ammo you wanted then why did they stop at ammo? Why didnt they say "Hey, nanites cant only make all ammo types, but also multitools and med packs and biocells" etc. Heck, considering there cyber punk justifications, it would make sence that you could. But the point is, is that you CANT. WHY?? Because the devs realize that allowing the player to cope with what they have and try to figure out new way around problems is an important part of gaming!

Just like that new "Magical Moments" peice on GS. Just about EVERY SINGLE magic moment dealt with the player not having enough of something and having to improvise a novel approach. "What great fun" they say. I say "Do you have any idea how many magic moments, novel approaches and emmergent experience are lost becasue the player will always have the ammo type they want. It was so freaking STUPID of them. They say that great game play is using your brain and learning improvising with what you have and then go and obliterate one of the major chances for such options. GAH!

WANT PROOF?
Try this mental experiment.

Unified ammo nearly completely eliminates tactical discression with weaponry. For instance, how fun would SS2 have been if you could change any ammo you wanted into AP ammo? Would midwives have been that much of a threat. Would you sweet over every bullet you fired? Would you have fee the need to walk a little slower and listen a littel closer to their eerie googoo talk, so not to get caught unprepared? Would you ever go through the trouble of waiting around the corner for the just right moment to spin around and attack so that you wouldnt waste a single shot? Would they even have been a little scary if you knew that all you had to is run around leaning on trigger, unworried of depleating your nearly bottom less supply of AP ammo? In other words, SS2, who many here reveer as the game with the worlds greatest first play value, would be reduced to a sloppy shooter with no edge or atmosphe to speek of.

Unified ammo is a slap in the face to any gamer who bothers with tactical planning and discression, or who relishes in the challange of effectively deploying there sometimes meager weapon resources. This is, after all, a video game. And whether you like it or not, guns are an important part.

[MaxxQ]

...aaand....your point is...what?:D

That was a nice little rant there, but don't gripe at me about it. I never said one way or the other whether I agreed with unified ammo. I was merely pointing out that someday, maybe sooner than we think, it could be a possibility.

Until then, it's only a game. Nothing to get your knickers in a bunch over...

[Velax]

Originally posted by MaxxQ
I understand that, and agreed with him that it would be logical to do that. But Ion Storm has always said that the game was about choices, and having only one or two weapons, albeit multi-use weapons, would sorta limit choices.

Not to mention the additional uproar that would come from all the people already raising hell about the unified ammo and everything else in the game :D

I wasn't saying that the game should only have two weapons; I was simply pointing out your error in using Halo as a comparison in this case.

[James Warren]

IconoclastDX{Dont you guys understand??}

Well if I didn't I do now! I, in fact, agree with every one of your well stated opinions about additional ammo types adding *some* additional complications to solving a situation using weapons and therefore *some* additional elements of "military" strategy to the game. I might even concede that for some fans of the original game (not me obviously) this became and remains a major part of their fascination with Deus Ex game play. Even I appreciate the economy of a good vantage point and a sniper rifle, an experience available in the demo with the boltcaster and it's alt fire, by the way (thank you catman and random.)

My only counter argument to this is that my actual game play experiences in the demo require me to *find* the weapon-tool that I need for the solution that I *plan* and to *find* the ammo that I will need and to *conserve* the ammo by using the right weapon-tool for the job in the right way. For me this is the same experience qualitatively as if I also had to find ammo types. Now, granted, It may not be quantitatively *intense* enough for you and if so then you are understandably disappointed. The military strategy *is* intense enough for me however and so I can easily live with this particular "streamlining."

Again, I am not right and you are not wrong. I am just a *little* easier to please.

[Catman]

AP ammo and cyberwives ... silly me. I just whacked up to death with the wrench.

[Pentti]

!!!WARNING!!! WEIRD MESSAGE AHEAD!!! READ WITH CAUTION!!!

The unified ammo could be possible in the far future, but not in next 200 years or so. If it's possible some day, any army of this planet would pay astronomical sums of money to get it. Think about how that would change everything...

Here's an excample:

A machinegunner in the field shouts: "Out of ammo!" And another soldier would just throw him his pistol clip. That would make soldier's life in the field easier. And if you didn't have to reload, that would be something too.


Then the guns would become better and better, and the soldiers in the WW3 would be like walking nanite-detonators (?) like seen in DX:IW intro.

Just like Albert Einstein said:

" I don't know what kind of weapons will be used in the third world war, assuming there will be a third world war. But I can tell you what the fourth world war will be fought with ---- stone clubs."

I don't like unified ammo myself, maybe because I always loved reloading, it makes games "better" and realistic.

There are still good sides in unified ammo:

your character don't carry like 800 pounds of ammunition, and that's the thing that makes it realistic.

And the bad sides:

1. No reloading.
2. Where does the ammunition go from the flamethrower when you use shotgun?
3. When you pick up a half-empty clip, you never put it ni the gun or anything. The nanites in the clip just magically appear in you gun.

3-1 normal ammo wins.

[Bonk]

I dont ever expect something like that idea to make it to our battlefields in the future

I do expect the ammo to go caseinless like in the movie Aliens pretty soon with the ammo for tanks going that way first

Instead of gunpowder and a shell they use gas and a chamber like the cylinder of an internal combustion engine to fire the shell

The advantage of this is you dont need a loader in a tank and you can have more shells and fire quicker than the old method

I'm sure after that personal firearms will also be converted :D

[James Warren]

Bonk{I do expect the ammo to go caseinless}

I probably shouldn't admit this but as a "child" in the 50s I actually spent some very stupidly dangerous time trying to build a "machine gun" that used gasoline as a fuel and small steel cylinders as projectiles.

I realize now, of course, that I am lucky to have survived to an old age with all of my faculties (such as they are :D )

[sallyfileds]

OK, I just could not resist. Though I know no one can be right or wrong on this subject due to the fact that everyone enjoys games different ways and for different reasons. Here's my opinion:

Having multiple types of ammo and needing a specific ammo for a specific weapon is one of the aspects that really made the original enjoyable for me. It made me think about what I was doing at the time and what I might have to do later. To me that really helped to draw me into the story. Having one type of ammo seems to me to over-simplify things. It's something ususally reserved for the gib-fest games out there; the run and gun shooter types. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy those games as well, but for a different reason than why I enjoy a game like Deus Ex.

Again, my opinion here, but I wish they would have kept multiple ammo types in the game. I'm going to buy it, but I am not particularly confident that it is going to be any where near as engrossing as the first. But then again, when is act 2 ever as good as act 1 ?

Thanks for listening,

Duke

[LabMonkey]

But I do think that some sort of indicator that you're getting low would be good. There are audio indicators when health and bioenergy get low (heart beat and beeping, respectively), so there should be something similar for ammo.

I think an indicator might be useful in some situations, but it won't solve the problem. The damage system is just so weak that it forces you to spend at least half a clip just to kill someone. So, I only got melee weapons to fall back on... how bout if I gotta take out a bot or run out of ammo in a firefight? I shouldn't be forced to carry around emp gernades because it takes 5 headshots to kill somebody.

If IS was so adamant about simplifying ammo, they should have grouped ammo into at least 2-3 categories. I think players would have been much more open this idea, as it allows a bit more freedom in ammo usage/conservation and gives allows for a ranged fallback weapon.

[HKRaven]

Originally posted by Bonk
I dont ever expect something like that idea to make it to our battlefields in the future

I do expect the ammo to go caseinless like in the movie Aliens pretty soon with the ammo for tanks going that way first

Instead of gunpowder and a shell they use gas and a chamber like the cylinder of an internal combustion engine to fire the shell

The advantage of this is you dont need a loader in a tank and you can have more shells and fire quicker than the old method

I'm sure after that personal firearms will also be converted :D


Yeah but Caseless ammo got one HUGE disadvantage and that is that it is very prone to "blow up" because of the gas :( There are afew weapons already that used caseless ammo but they have all been cancelled AFAIK. The G11 is probably the most known one.(http://world.guns.ru/assault/as42-e.htm)