[SPOILER] Whys is Vorador still around

[Joe10lo]

Ok first I came to this chat forum to find the answer to this question since this is Eidos and here it is.

So far because of Defiance i've been able to peice together all of LOK except for one thing how is Vorador still alive in this when his execution took place already? This is the biggest plot whole i've come across and i would like some one to answer it for me please some one give me at least a reasonable explantion of this event.

[VoRaDoR]

Originally posted by Joe10lo
Ok first I came to this chat forum to find the answer to this question since this is Eidos and here it is.

So far because of Defiance i've been able to peice together all of LOK except for one thing how is Vorador still alive in this when his execution took place already? This is the biggest plot whole i've come across and i would like some one to answer it for me please some one give me at least a reasonable explantion of this event.

:) Good to be around.. Not dead yet I'm afraid :p and hopefully I still have few hundred years :rolleyes:

VORADOR is one of the main characters of the Legacy of Kain series. Since the last installment of Legacy of Kain, which is Legacy of Kain - Defiance game takes place in the history of Nosgoth. That might be the reason why he is still around. Hopefully I've not missed out anything.

[Mrxknown]

Defiance takes place during BO which is why Ariel was still at the Pillars waiting for Kain to get to the point where she thinks he would kill himself to save the land. By the time Raziel got back to Vorador's Mansion (2nd time) Moebuis' army already got there and captured Vorador for his execution.

[Joe10lo]

Well I'm starting to see thanks to defiance how blood omen two is happening what with the hylden and janos but remember how vorador was alive 200 years after his exectuion thats what puzzled me

[Azriel]

As far as I can tell Vorador's being alive in BO2 has yet to be explained. I guess there were just to many plotholes to cover in one game. :p

It'll probably be explained(I hope) in the next game.

[hel_fire]

My boyfriend and I had a discussion about this and I came up with the following reasoning. Notice that Moebius told Raziel that he and his minions had captured Vorador and that they were going to kill him - not that he was already dead. So there are a couple of options here.

1) Vorador will escape from Moebius before he is due to be executed.

2) Vorador and Moebius fought, and after valiantly trying to hold his own, Vorador turned tail and ran against the overwhelming odds (he had to protect Janos, after all). He was either disarmed by Moebius or dropped his sword. Moebius picked it up and lied to Raziel (which he is certainly wont to do).

[warpsavant]

Vorador still dies and gets his head chopped off. Its not going to change. Kain doesnt sacrifice himself becasue if he does he knows it would be the extinction of the vampires. This reason can't change.

Now, Im not saying for certain that Kain is the last vampire, just that he thinks he is, at the time of the fatal hour, and if there is some other vampire (ala Raziel secret Tomb #8 and the "Do you really think you were the last vampire and the I kill for fun" dialogue from god knows where) it is not Vorador.

You dont have to believe me. But its true. Just like when I told everyone the vampires all commited suicide and everyone said I was nuts. hehe

[Ocelot]

Vorador was restored to life. It's that simple.

[dumah's wraith]

Kain witnesses Vorador being guillotined in BO1. He definately dies. Somebody revives him at some point. We don't know how or why.

[Linikratyo]

Kain witnesses Vorador being guillotined in BO1. He definately dies. Somebody revives him at some point. We don't know how or why.

probably by Janos when he teleported away...

[Raina Audron]

I don´t think Janos can bring back the dead..however Kain is able to do so...

[Linikratyo]

I don´t think Janos can bring back the dead..however Kain is able to do so...

True...

[unspoken]

simple explanation: they screwed up

[Linikratyo]

simple explanation: they screwed up

Who??

[Raziel'sRevenge]

simple explanation: they screwed up

It wouldn't be the first time, however I think they did it on purpose here. He must have been brought back at some point, most likely by necromancy. Mortanius himself might have done it, he recognized the need to restore the pillars and I wouldn't be surprised if at some point he realized that he needed vampires around, even if it was one that killed off quite a few of the circle of the nine. There has been much speculation on this topic, numerous threads, and so far no official answer. If the next game doesn't explain it (and there will be another game, have faith people), then it probably won't ever be answered. All we know now is that he did die (we saw his head chopped off, and a statue of Moebius holding said head, and the event is critical for the rest of history to happen on course), and that he was revived (he's alive in BO2 in which there is no time traveling). He must have been revived between the events of BO1 and BO2.

[ammon]

I don´t think Janos can bring back the dead..however Kain is able to do so...

that'd be great! :p - kain resurrects a vampire into a vampire :lol:

[dumah's wraith]

Its not difficult to raise a vampire from the 'dead'...in SR1 it was as easy as pulling out the spear. Janos came back to life after his heart was put back. Pretty much anyone could have done that. It'd probably be more difficult for decapitation, but still, it's very possible, and not necessarily using necromancy.

[Raziel'sRevenge]

Its not difficult to raise a vampire from the 'dead'...in SR1 it was as easy as pulling out the spear. Janos came back to life after his heart was put back. Pretty much anyone could have done that. It'd probably be more difficult for decapitation, but still, it's very possible, and not necessarily using necromancy.

The vampires in Soul Reaver 1 were created by necromancy, which is not how Vorador came to be. He never had to die, he was turned straight from human to vampire. So perhaps it isn't that easy to bring that type of vampire back, right now it's all speculation.

[dumah's wraith]

Janos wasn't created with necromancy, and he just needed his heart back.

[JanosAudron]

Honestly its been awhile since Ive read through everything but unless they stated it elsewhere there is a very plausible explination. Remember the first Blood Omen? Great game as it was, we the player (ok at least I did lol) died alot and was constantly restored by the Heart of Darkness. Not the actual heart but the Relics that the Spirit Forges were so keen in trading for a taste of Kain's blood. Whose to say Vorador couldnt have been restored from a relic?

Of course despite what anyone says the real answer is squirrels.

[Linikratyo]

maybe Janos needed his heart back...... and Vorador his head............. :scratch:

[VipericVampire]

Kain did resurrect Vorador. In the Hylden City, Kain says ''do you so wish to return to the grave...''... RETURN to the grave!

Here is Jake Pawloski's explanation:
Vorador's survival: some changes occured in the altered timeline created at the end of SR2 which caused the younger Kain to resurrect Vorador after his death, (not save him before execution)
Kain had the power to restore vampiric unlife, he just didnt realize he contained the heart of darkness. Bo2 hints that Kain resurrected him when he said "Do you so wish to RETURN to the grave?" to Vorador. it also hints he is the one who kills Vorador before the events of Sr1. "Tomorrow, we shall see" he said.

[Linikratyo]

yes, but what has this to do with the paradox at the end of SR2???

[Aranor]

Kain did resurrect Vorador. In the Hylden City, Kain says ''do you so wish to return to the grave...''... RETURN to the grave!

That does not mean Kain is the one who revived him. It only means Kain knew Vorador was at one time dead.

[Escaton]

That does not mean Kain is the one who revived him. It only means Kain knew Vorador was at one time dead.

Indeed. And in the original Defiance storyline, Elder Kain did the reviving. Blood Omen 2's Kain wouldn't have known he'd done it yet, because he hadn't.

What I want to know is, why was the original head was still decaying in the Sarafan Stronghold 100 years after Blood Omen? I know the timeline changed after Raziel went there, but I don't see why it would have cancelled that out.

[unspoken]

Is it so difficult to understand that the creators of BO2 wanted to bring familiar faces from the original BO1, so they just tossed vorador into the picture without really pondering the implications of this?
Come on people, there is no hidden meaning or higher purpuse for his resurrection. BO2's developers thought he was cool so they brought him back and didn't even bother to come up with a decent explanation. It's one of the many turds left by BO2 for a future LOK game to explain... or ignore if you will.
Incidentally, of all 5 games in the series (after all patches had been applied), BO2 was the only game I had problems with: full of glitches and random crashes. What an humongous POS.

[Linikratyo]

Is it so difficult to understand that the creators of BO2 wanted to bring familiar faces from the original BO1, so they just tossed vorador into the picture without really pondering the implications if this?
Come on people, there is no hidden meaning or higher purpuse for his resurrection. BO2's developers thought he was cool so they brought him back and didn't even bother to come up with a decent explanation. It's one of the many turds left by BO2 for a future LOK game to explain... or ignore if you will.
Incidentally, of all 5 games in the series (after all patches had been applied), BO2 was the only game I had problems with: full of glitches and random crashes. What an humongous POS.

Dude, Amy Hennig herself confirmed they wanted to show how Vorador was resurrected in BO2. Though they eventually left it out....

[unspoken]

Dude, Amy Hennig herself confirmed they wanted to show how Vorador was resurrected in BO2. Though they eventually left it out....
Better try "...needed to show how Vorador was resurrected...", being "need" the key word in that sentence. Of course they needed to make head and tails out of it. It was a mess left for Amy and team to resolve.

[Linikratyo]

Better try "...needed to show how Vorador was resurrected...", being "need" the key word in that sentence. Of course they needed to make head and tails out of it. It was a mess left for Amy and team to resolve.

and they did of course.......

[Escaton]

What exactly gives you the idea that BO2's developers just threw Vorador in because they could? Are you privy to knowledge we don't have? Are/were you part of the development teams? Prerelease interviews and comments from both BO2's designers and Amy would suggest otherwise, and that team BO2 was fully aware of the other two games' stories.

And nice work overlooking the fact that BO2 went into development alongside Soul Reaver 1. With about four years of planning and Amy's approval of the script, it's hard to suggest that Vorador's appearance was a stupid, badly-thought-out mistake.

[JanosAudron]

In his defense yes from a mechanical point of view there is no hidden meaning or higher purpose. However you whose name shall remain unspoken (sorry couldnt resist) from a lore perspective there is a hidden meaning or higher purpose hrm or dark purpose if the Hylden (or the squirrels) are behind it.

One of the best forms of flattery on games and such is fans arguing and bickering over lore. (course then poor folks like Umah have to clean up and moderate our messes :lol: )

[Brown_Jenkins]

I think the most interesting part of BO2 was Kain's statement that he never understood how Vorador created the vampires. I find a lot of questions like this, people wondering why Vorador is alive, but it's like it've been mentioned here:

Kain could simply revive him with the Heart of Darkness relic, or more possibly he just returned Vorador's head to its body (because he couldn't create vampires no doubt!). Vorador was created by Janos Audren and like him and all vampires would probably heal back again after all body parts have been restored. If you need someone actually saying it Raziel says something like "all wounds a fleating" when he first sees the eolved vampires. If their bodies are completly disintigrated and the soul is freed you need to capture it quick, everyone remember SO1? :)

So how did Kain find out the secret? I think it've been confirmed Kain gave the leutenants part of his soul but never explained where he learnt this. It was actually the only thing I found disapointing with Definance that it didn't answer this question.

Also though it's just my personal opinion that they threw in Varador to show a friendly face, he was like the only character to survive Kain from BO1, and not to show some high level of script. It's more like a cameo they forgot to explain.

[unspoken]

What exactly gives you the idea that BO2's developers just threw Vorador in because they could? Are you privy to knowledge we don't have? Are/were you part of the development teams? Prerelease interviews and comments from both BO2's designers and Amy would suggest otherwise, and that team BO2 was fully aware of the other two games' stories.
And nice work overlooking the fact that BO2 went into development alongside Soul Reaver 1. With about four years of planning and Amy's approval of the script, it's hard to suggest that Vorador's appearance was a stupid, badly-thought-out mistake.
any sources to back up your words?

[Escaton]

Sources are exactly what I just asked you for. You claim

the creators of BO2 wanted to bring familiar faces from the original BO1, so they just tossed vorador into the picture without really pondering the implications of this

with no evidence. It's a misinformed opinion. They are rampant on forums ;) If you want my sources, check out the prerelease interviews for yourself at IGN or GameSpot. Amy's words were in a Q&A which should be archived somewhere on this board.

[Raina Audron]

amy planned to explain Vorador´s appearance in BO2 in Defiance, but it didn´t make into the game because of lack of time. I guess it would be explained in Dark Prophecy, but as long as it was cancelled...:mad2:

[VipericVampire]

That does not mean Kain is the one who revived him. It only means Kain knew Vorador was at one time dead.

Yes, that too. But it hints at the possibility that Kain would of revived Vorador.

Also, ''Elder Kain'' doesn't have to be the only one who revives. In fact, I think that Kain probably resurrected Vorador before BO2 and then did the same for the Sarafan Priests after BO2.

[Brown_Jenkins]

Yes, that too. But it hints at the possibility that Kain would of revived Vorador.

Also, ''Elder Kain'' doesn't have to be the only one who revives. In fact, I think that Kain probably resurrected Vorador before BO2 and then did the same for the Sarafan Priests after BO2.

How could he do that? What we know is that reviving a vampire seems to be as easy as returning all the parts to one place (sources: Janus Audren, returned the heart, Dumah, removed the spikes). The Sarafan priests are still humans. Remeber in BO2 it was after Vorador's resurrection and Kain still didn't know how to make vampires, so if he was recurrected by some other means I don't think it's the way to make vampires.

[VipericVampire]

How could he do that? What we know is that reviving a vampire seems to be as easy as returning all the parts to one place (sources: Janus Audren, returned the heart, Dumah, removed the spikes). The Sarafan priests are still humans. Remeber in BO2 it was after Vorador's resurrection and Kain still didn't know how to make vampires, so if he was recurrected by some other means I don't think it's the way to make vampires.

How are you sure that Kain wasn't able to resurrect vampires? What makes you think he started to do it after Blood Omen 2 with the Sarafan Priests.

[Brown_Jenkins]

How are you sure that Kain wasn't able to resurrect vampires? What makes you think he started to do it after Blood Omen 2 with the Sarafan Priests.

You mean make vampires? There's a cutscene in BO2 where Kain says he never knew how Vorador created the vampires. It's here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-XTbwSzBrA&feature=PlayList&p=64B7818650E9E902&index=6

Vorador is probably gone in SO1 because Kain would remove him the instant he learns how to make vampires. I can imagine him raising Raziel to help finish the job :)

[Escaton]

Also, ''Elder Kain'' doesn't have to be the only one who revives.

Obviously. But that was the original plan according to The Lost Worlds, and is the best clue we have. Don't tell me you think Moebius did it :).

In fact, I think that Kain probably resurrected Vorador before BO2 and then did the same for the Sarafan Priests after BO2.

I don't see that happening. Vorador's head was still in the Stronghold 100 years after BO1, and Kain spent most of his time in northern Nosgoth. Regardless of whether he knew how to create vampires, he'd still need the head to revive Vorador's corpse.

[Brown_Jenkins]

I don't see that happening. Vorador's head was still in the Stronghold 100 years after BO1, and Kain spent most of his time in northern Nosgoth. Regardless of whether he knew how to create vampires, he'd still need the head to revive Vorador's corpse.

I want to say I find this last part interesting. Was it from SO2? It means for 100 years Kain wandered around without any vampire friends. It sounds cool, I can imagine him finding out lots of secrets of Nosgoth and vainly trying to create vampires by biting humans :)

[VipericVampire]

I don't see that happening. Vorador's head was still in the Stronghold 100 years after BO1, and Kain spent most of his time in northern Nosgoth. Regardless of whether he knew how to create vampires, he'd still need the head to revive Vorador's corpse.

So how do you propose Vorador was resurrected?

[Escaton]

I want to say I find this last part interesting. Was it from SO2?

Yes, the Moebius statue in the Stronghold main hall is carrying what looks very much like Vorador's organic head. The whole thing may have been changed by the Reaver paradox, but I don't think so since history only makes the slightest alterations. And the Stronghold was in Defiance so it fits that Elder Kain might have returned there.

So how do you propose Vorador was resurrected?

I can't say, I'm not Amy Hennig, but judging on the trend with LoK's vampires I'd say 1) take head, 2) attach to body, 3) wait. Not unlike Janos. Vorador seems to be LoK's only decapitated vampire (that we've seen), so we're not brimming with prior examples :). But there is some sort of bandage around Vorador's neck in Blood Omen 2.

Young Kain revived the inquisitors centuries after BO2, when Vorador was gone for whatever reason. He definitely didn't raise Vorador by the necromantic means he used on the inquisitors for two reasons - one, he didn't know how to create vampires until after BO2 as BrownJenkins just proved (why should he beg Vorador to do it if he's equally capable?), and two, Vorador didn't undergo anything like the huge transformation that the lieutenants did (evolution, forgetting past lives, etc).

[Brown_Jenkins]

Yes, the Moebius statue in the Stronghold main hall is carrying what looks very much like Vorador's organic head. The whole thing may have been changed by the Reaver paradox, but I don't think so since history only makes the slightest alterations. And the Stronghold was in Defiance so it fits that Elder Kain might have returned there.

That's cool, it might add something I hadn't thought about though it seems only natural. The Sarafans probably know the powerful vampires heal up nicly when all parts are restored, so what better place to store the "vitals" than in their very own strongohld? :)

[dumah's wraith]

Ressurecting a dead vampire is easy. Creating them isn't. A random passer by could easily have revived Vorador for all we know.

The reason Vorador was in BO2 was probably just that the developers needed a vampiric resistance leader not necessarily subservient to Kain. Any new character would be younger than Kain and hence weaker. They needed a resistance leader Kain could concievably respect, or at least be wary of.

[Raziel'sRevenge]

Ressurecting a dead vampire is easy. Creating them isn't. A random passer by could easily have revived Vorador for all we know.

The reason Vorador was in BO2 was probably just that the developers needed a vampiric resistance leader not necessarily subservient to Kain. Any new character would be younger than Kain and hence weaker. They needed a resistance leader Kain could concievably respect, or at least be wary of.

I'm going to have to agree here. It's been stated earlier many a time that reviving vampires isn't too hard. You can kill and revive and kill and revive and etc. as much as you want with the vampires in SR1, so perhaps once a vampire is created all they need to come back to life if they're killed is for everything to be put back into place properly. We also know that Kain needed Vorador to create him a new army, he said as much to him at the Cabal. Vorador responded with something along the lines of "it takes time and energy, I would if I could". If it was easy to just make vampires then Vorador would have created an army of 500,000 and wiped out the humans out to kill them. The reason that there are so many vampires in SR1 may be that they have literally 1000 years to make them, plus all the time that Raziel spent in the abyss.

[VipericVampire]

Yes, the Moebius statue in the Stronghold main hall is carrying what looks very much like Vorador's organic head. The whole thing may have been changed by the Reaver paradox, but I don't think so since history only makes the slightest alterations. And the Stronghold was in Defiance so it fits that Elder Kain might have returned there.



I can't say, I'm not Amy Hennig, but judging on the trend with LoK's vampires I'd say 1) take head, 2) attach to body, 3) wait. Not unlike Janos. Vorador seems to be LoK's only decapitated vampire (that we've seen), so we're not brimming with prior examples :). But there is some sort of bandage around Vorador's neck in Blood Omen 2.

Young Kain revived the inquisitors centuries after BO2, when Vorador was gone for whatever reason. He definitely didn't raise Vorador by the necromantic means he used on the inquisitors for two reasons - one, he didn't know how to create vampires until after BO2 as BrownJenkins just proved (why should he beg Vorador to do it if he's equally capable?), and two, Vorador didn't undergo anything like the huge transformation that the lieutenants did (evolution, forgetting past lives, etc).

Well, in whatever way Vory was resurrected, we can all agree that Kain did it?

And yes, I did notice that bandage. :lol: Someone made a parody out of it on DA.

[Brown_Jenkins]

We also know that Kain needed Vorador to create him a new army, he said as much to him at the Cabal. Vorador responded with something along the lines of "it takes time and energy, I would if I could". If it was easy to just make vampires then Vorador would have created an army of 500,000 and wiped out the humans out to kill them. The reason that there are so many vampires in SR1 may be that they have literally 1000 years to make them, plus all the time that Raziel spent in the abyss.

I also believe Kain and Vorador want different things and work in different ways. It's clear from BO1 when Kain speaks with him that Vorador doesn't want to rule the world, only pray on humans, drink their blood and tourture them every now and then. So Vorador probably doesn't want 500 000 vampires running around starting holy wars. Kain on the other hand, I think it's pretty clear that after he learnt how to create vampires he thaught his leutenants how to do it.

However this doesn't rule out that Vorador was telling the truth. In the Prodigy Son fan-game (no spoiler, I got this from the web-site) they gone this way and tell the story like so that Kain first created Raziel, then 100 years later created the second son and so on. It's probably dependant on how powerful vampire you make, then the leutenants could create lots of fledglings in a much shorter time.

[Escaton]

I just realised that the "head in Stronghold" theory makes no sense if you consider that Umah was planned to appear in Defiance. She'd have to be over 120 years old at the time of her "birth" at Vorador's hands.

[dumah's wraith]

[QUOTE=VipericVampire;977187]Well, in whatever way Vory was resurrected, we can all agree that Kain did it?
QUOTE]

Not neccessarily. It could have been a random fledgling who survived the purge, a stupid demon hunter...anyone. We don't know

[Brown_Jenkins]

[QUOTE=VipericVampire;977187]Well, in whatever way Vory was resurrected, we can all agree that Kain did it?
QUOTE]

Not neccessarily. It could have been a random fledgling who survived the purge, a stupid demon hunter...anyone. We don't know

Perhaps even... Umah? If she were supose to live and be human around the time of Defiance (it means Vorador was raised just then in order to be able to make Umah into a vampire to live until BO2). Vorador do seem to have some sort of attachment to her. Even more so than any other vampire. There also aren't that many characters to pick from and it should be someone we know that was alive right after BO1. Ofcourse she would've had to have been a human when she did it, maybe looking for immortality.

When I think about it, Kain wouldn't know that Vorador could create vampires and really wouldn't have any need to resurrect him. Raising such a potentially deadly threat isn't something Kain would do lightly. My point here is that Umah would more likly be foolish enough to raise Vorador taking the risk that he could make her into a vampire. BO2 doesn't really show her as that much calculating, making rash decisions, with an arrogance to almost rival Kain. I can see her taking a risk to raise Vorador to win immortality.

Ofcourse all speculation :)

[JanosAudron]

Not a bad point Jenkins. However I dont think Kain would view Vorador a threat after the events of Blood Omen. With the reaver in hand I doubt Vorador would be all that antsy to go up against Kain.

Of course there is a theory no one has brought up yet. Kain did respect Vorador (even though he viewed him as decadent). It could be that Kain decided to bring back Vorador for a mentorship if you will. We dont know alot about thier relationship prior to the events of Blood Omen 2. From previews it seemed Vorador acted as an advisor to Kain (I say advisor due to the fact Kain never addresses Vorador as a general.)

[Raziel'sRevenge]

Not a bad point Jenkins. However I dont think Kain would view Vorador a threat after the events of Blood Omen. With the reaver in hand I doubt Vorador would be all that antsy to go up against Kain.

Of course there is a theory no one has brought up yet. Kain did respect Vorador (even though he viewed him as decadent). It could be that Kain decided to bring back Vorador for a mentorship if you will. We dont know alot about thier relationship prior to the events of Blood Omen 2. From previews it seemed Vorador acted as an advisor to Kain (I say advisor due to the fact Kain never addresses Vorador as a general.)

Going along those same lines Kain may have realized Vorador's usefullness. As Kain grew older he grew more powerful and gained new traits from evolution. He may have recognized that Vorador was far older than him, and therefor could provide him with priceless information. This is assuming that Kain felt it would be worth the risk of facing said power if Vorador ever decided to turn on him.

[Aranor]

It could have even been Moebius. While he himself has not shown the ability to raise people from the dead he could always ask EG to do it. Knowing the only way to seal the events they have worked so hard to set into play was to ensure Kain and Raziel made it to the space and time where Raziel kills Kain and gets sucked into the reaver he could have raised Vorador to ensure Kain's survival. At east until he was strong enough to make it there on his own.

The Umah theme is a nice idea too.

[Brown_Jenkins]

Not a bad point Jenkins. However I dont think Kain would view Vorador a threat after the events of Blood Omen. With the reaver in hand I doubt Vorador would be all that antsy to go up against Kain.

Of course there is a theory no one has brought up yet. Kain did respect Vorador (even though he viewed him as decadent). It could be that Kain decided to bring back Vorador for a mentorship if you will. We dont know alot about thier relationship prior to the events of Blood Omen 2. From previews it seemed Vorador acted as an advisor to Kain (I say advisor due to the fact Kain never addresses Vorador as a general.)

I don't know if I agree. Kain was still a fledgling after BO1, and Vorador was hundreds if not thousands of years old (I can't find a reference but I remember it being stated he was very old) and could probably just use telekenisis to take the Soul Reaver out of his hands. Remember at the end of BO1 Kain hid behind a Pillar when Mortainious finsihed off a Pillar Guardian. Even at the end of BO2 he clearly moved out of the way when the Sarafan Lord took care of Janos Audren. It does seem like Kain avoid fights if he can. Not calling him a coward, he did take care of both Mortainious and the Sarafan Lord, but my point is that even though he could probably take Vorador it wouldn't be in his calculating nature to put himself in a position where he would have to if he could avoid it.

Also I'm not sure I would say Kain had any respect for Vorador. He doesn't say he likes him but thinks he's decadent. He uses the words "The decadent old fool gave a borish account of how he murdered the Circle of Nine" and "He thought my curse a gift ... But deep inside I knew he was right" in BO1. Then in BO2 the first thing is "The sado-hedonist Vorador ... ". I don't think Kain have any respect for Vorador's nature of staying away from the human affairs and only abducting them to drink their blood and tourture them. Ofcourse Kain is no good-guy but he doesn't strike me as a sadist and I don't think he respects Vorador for being one. Though I have to say in all but BO1 Voarador doesn't strike me as a sadist either, but then again we only see him when Raziel and Kain are having conversasions with him, often far away from humans so there's nothign to tourture :)

There is one more thing here: In BO2 when Umah betrayed Kain she said Vorador had told about him and she was convinced Kain would kill the Cabal once he had taken Nosgoth. It doesn't sound like something a mentor would say about his protectee. Also though it may be becoming too far-fectched it could hint that Kain didn't resurrect Vorador at all, and Vorador making the conclusion once he was resurrected that Kain didn't resurrect him because he didn't want any rivals (and making the probably correct conclusion Kain would remove them after he learnt how to make his own vampires).

Wow, got a little wall of text here. Oh well :)

[JanosAudron]

Remember at the end of BO1 Kain hid behind a Pillar when Mortainious finsihed off a Pillar Guardian. Even at the end of BO2 he clearly moved out of the way when the Sarafan Lord took care of Janos Audren. It does seem like Kain avoid fights if he can. Not calling him a coward, he did take care of both Mortainious and the Sarafan Lord, but my point is that even though he could probably take Vorador it wouldn't be in his calculating nature to put himself in a position where he would have to if he could avoid it.

There is one more thing here: In BO2 when Umah betrayed Kain she said Vorador had told about him and she was convinced Kain would kill the Cabal once he had taken Nosgoth. It doesn't sound like something a mentor would say about his protectee.

Personally the way I look at it Kain arrived late and was listening in. When Mortanius went wiggy Kain was more than happy to let him do the work (who wouldnt be? hehe) that doesnt mean that he avoids the fight just that he fights smart.
As for Vorador's comment actually that would be precisely the thing a mentor would say. If Vorador did "mentor" Kain then he would be in a perfect posistion to know exactly what Kain would do if he needed to.

[Brown_Jenkins]

Personally the way I look at it Kain arrived late and was listening in. When Mortanius went wiggy Kain was more than happy to let him do the work (who wouldnt be? hehe) that doesnt mean that he avoids the fight just that he fights smart.

Yeah, that's what I mean as well. My point is that Vorador was pretty powerful and Kain wouldn't resurrect him unless he had to. Remember the older leutenant in SO1 the more powerful they got. Vorador comes straight from Janos Audron, one of the true vampires and I really think he was supose to be this uber-vampire. Kain wouldn't know Vorador could create vampires but like you said perhaps Kain needed some information on being a vampire.

However I like my theory of Umah. I can't really imagine Kain resurrecting Vorador saying "let's go make vampires together". There would have to be some catalyst for Vorador to get involved with the affairs of men. Perhaps it is like you say that Kain was that powerful and Vorador actually feared him with his Soul Reaver. In BO2 however he just needed Kain to topple the Sarans that, as we all know would be against Vorador's life-style so he needed to take care of them. Perhaps why Vorador "suposedly" ordered Umah to betraay Kain at the end so he couldn't recover the Soul Reaver?

This way we'll also get to play Umah in a sequel immidiatly after BO1 where elder Kain was last seen and get to resurrect Vorador. I do think there's a lot you can do with a chracter even if you know when they'll die. Perhaps even though I feel it would be too cheesy you'll get to do some stuff with elder Kain (stalk a green shadow with a glowing sword, actually talking would be too weird), perhaps travel to the future of Nosgoth. Umah would learn how young-elddar Kain got rid of Raziel and learn his nature. Then at the end elder Kain sends her home. Bleh, the level of cheesy is unbarable: Travel 500 years to BO2 and resurrect her and bring her with him :p

As for Vorador's comment actually that would be precisely the thing a mentor would say. If Vorador did "mentor" Kain then he would be in a perfect posistion to know exactly what Kain would do if he needed to.

I'm still not convinced. Kain really doesn't strike me as someone with a mentor and from BO2 I'm constantly getting the feeling Kain would only keep Vorador around because he need a vampire army. There's also the very likly possibility Kain did suspect that Vorador could create vampires. Where else would they come from? Where DID they come from anyway? In BO1 they were pretty common, or? Did Vorador just create them and leave them be? In SO2 there are spikeed vampires in the old days of Nosgoth, 500 years before BO1 if I'm right. In BO1 there're only 2-3?

[JanosAudron]

Actually (cant believe no one mentioned this and that i forgot hehe) from a deductive stand point Kain would indeed know that Vorador can make vampires or at least think that Vorador knows. During the first blood omen Vorador's mansion (anyone else notice how much easier it is to get there in the games past BO heh) was filled with vampires and Kain makes a few comments about them.

As for the Reaver. Just about everything in the Legacy of Kain universe fears that blade... (follows is why they think they fear the blade or do and is conjecture)

Kain: the only weapon that can kill him.

Raziel: ment for his imprisonment

Janos: A weapon ment for his enemies and ment to be the key of the pillars has to be scary

Vorador: he crafted it, but knows the Ancients enscorcelled it but for what purpose?

Moebius: ensures powerfull enough paradoxes and almost died before his due time (when Raziel confronted him with the entwined blades)

Elder God: the bloody thing hurt the big squid!!! Why not be afraid of it!

Hylden: made a nexus stone to protect themselves from the blade and then used the blade for themselves, also they probably know that its an instrument of thier banishment

Vampires (not mentioned above hehe): older than any of them and a 1000 times more deadly.

and of course Umah (the moderator): she fears the blade thats why she doesnt talk to us much anymore :p

[Escaton]

Well, don't forget that the timeline was altered after William's death so that, technically, everything from the first 3/4s of Blood Omen is subject to change. Since Kain and Vorador were the last living vampires by the time of Moebius' rally at the garrison, that means all the vampires in the Mansion had been slaughtered by hunters, probably even before Kain's first visit. And when Raziel visits the mansion between Kain's resurrection and Vorador's execution, there are indeed no other vampires there.

[Raziel'sRevenge]

This brings up some good points. First of all, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that Vorador had sufficient knowledge of how to create vampires due to the fact that his mansion in Blood Omen 1 is swarming with them. I suppose he might have just liked the company but he didn't come across as the most social guy to me. He greeted Kain with a goblet of blood but it was a somewhat tense scene. It seemed more like Vorador was putting up with Kain barging in only because he didn't really feel like a fight at the moment. Second, we know that the Soulreaver is a weapon to be feared for all the reasons that JanosAudorn listed and I'm sure we could think of more if we put our heads to it. This still leaves the question of how Vorador went from beheaded to walking around. Were it Kain that resurrected him then Vorador might have felt something along the lines of a favor owed, thus his aiding Kain back to health in Blood Omen 2 might not be entirely self-centered (at first glance it just seems like he wants somebody to go in and kick some hylden ass for him seeing as how he can't seem to quite pull it off on his own).

[Brown_Jenkins]

I like the idea of the feared Soul Reaver. In SR1 Raziel also clearly points out that when Kain drew the blade in anger it meant you're dead. It've probably got more magical properties than just draining blood and soul. In BO1 I want to remember a sweep and your enemies exploded. In SR2 even without Raziel's soul it turned him immortal. Btw, didn't it drain your own blood in BO1?

There's also one thing in BO1 I didn't think about: Vorador gave Kain that magic ring which could summon him, the one you used when you found Malek and the threesome of Pillar Guardians. It might show that there were some affection from Vorador towards Kain, as well as him saying it would be a shame if he died. Also Kain might feel he owed Vorador after that assistance thus resurrecting him. Suposedly if Kain was telling Umah the truth in BO2 he do seem to have some sense of nobility in him.

At the end of BO2 it might just be that Kain didn't feel he owed Janos Audron anything and that he was too powerful to not let the Hylden Lord dispose of him. Even though Kain could take Janos he had no use of him and plainly killing him would turn Vorador against him and he would lose his vampires. Still I don't know, Janos did teleport Kain around and after his talk with the oracle I would imagine Kain asking Janos to be his ally.

[JanosAudron]

Well, don't forget that the timeline was altered after William's death so that, technically, everything from the first 3/4s of Blood Omen is subject to change. Since Kain and Vorador were the last living vampires by the time of Moebius' rally at the garrison, that means all the vampires in the Mansion had been slaughtered by hunters, probably even before Kain's first visit. And when Raziel visits the mansion between Kain's resurrection and Vorador's execution, there are indeed no other vampires there.

Not all of the "original" timeline can be ignored. Certain events happen no matter what. The most crucial of course is Kain's refusal at the pillars. Also the murder of Ariel and the corruption of the circle happens, its the only way for the Hylden's plan to work. Aside from what changes Kain still remembers everything that transpired as history reshuffles itself around him giving him extra memories (and to squirrely nexus plains of death and acorns with the butterfly effect movie and any of you lots thinking of using it to counter this arguement :lol: ).

[Raziel'sRevenge]

There's also one thing in BO1 I didn't think about: Vorador gave Kain that magic ring which could summon him, the one you used when you found Malek and the threesome of Pillar Guardians. It might show that there were some affection from Vorador towards Kain, as well as him saying it would be a shame if he died. Also Kain might feel he owed Vorador after that assistance thus resurrecting him. Suposedly if Kain was telling Umah the truth in BO2 he do seem to have some sense of nobility in him.

The ring was needed as a plot device at the time, but I most certainly see where you're coming from. Kain does seem to display some "nobility" at times (let us not forget his treatment of his generals in BO2: Death for the betrayers, kindness and even empathy for Magnus). I think that when Vorador first encountered Kain he did indeed think it would be a shame if Kain died, he probably saw a little bit of himself in Kain. Vorador started off human, let us not forget that, he probably went through the feelings of doubt, hate, change, and finally acceptance that Kain eventually goes through.

[dumah's wraith]

I don't know if he was that kind to Magnus. While I'm sure Magnus was honoured to be released from his torment, I think he would have been even more honoured had Kain telekinetically lifted the statue off him and brought him with him.

[serislkiffer]

Ok first I came to this chat forum to find the answer to this question since this is Eidos and here it is.

So far because of Defiance i've been able to peice together all of LOK except for one thing how is Vorador still alive in this when his execution took place already? This is the biggest plot whole i've come across and i would like some one to answer it for me please some one give me at least a reasonable explantion of this event.

Honestly anyone who asks that question has no right to call themselves a LOK fan... Do u honestly not know how vorador is alive?

[ammon]

that's abit much
none of us knows how vorador is still alive after his BO death, even moebius shouldn't be talking to raziel on his return to the mansion!! (in a review someone said that moebius wasn't suppose to be there but they had to put him in) and if the creators themselves are mucking around with the plot, then we're all *beep* as to try and figure it out.
and i'll point out again *sigh* how is Ariel ment to be in SR when she was clearly consumed in Defiance - ment to be priour to the SR point- so how can she still be alive??
and why did Azimuth get turel??
it makes no sense!! someone in CD was thinking "oh sod it, i'll just bung this in, the fans won't give a rat's behind, they'll accept it" ....
anyone ever get the feeling that when you try and unravel the plot (figuring out which scene comes before/after the other) that some one in the making of LOK didn't care for continuaty? or acruacy for that matter?.....
*confused*

[Brown_Jenkins]

I actually like it. I admit every plot-twist does at first seem like a plot-hole. I'm thinking mainly on most of the things in BO2 (why Janos was in the machine, Vorador's resurrection) but some of these things are eventually answered so I think it's just that: Plot-twists. And discussing them seem to be what LoK-fans like best :)

I don't remember Ariel being consumed in Defiance. I think Raziel just talks to her when she's a ghost and she's still a ghost in SR1. Tural wasn't in SR1 so I think they did plan for him to show up earlier. I have to believe they didn't just release the game and suddenly thought "No! We forgot a vampire leutenant! Oh well, too late now..." :p

Anyway, maybe someone fought Turel and sent him back in time, or perhaps there was something special with him that made him a very good host for Hylden-possession. If I would guess I would stick with the latter, his power seemed to be telekenisis so he probably had a very strong mind. He also was this many thousand year old vampire that suposedly got more powerful as they aged. I don't think there would be any better choice in Nosgoth (at any time, remember they would have to pull him back in time before Raziel killed him as he surly would).

[Raina Audron]

I don't remember Ariel being consumed in Defiance. I think Raziel just talks to her when she's a ghost and she's still a ghost in SR1. Tural wasn't in SR1 so I think they did plan for him to show up earlier. I have to believe they didn't just release the game and suddenly thought "No! We forgot a vampire leutenant! Oh well, too late now..." :p

ariel was consumed by the Reaver which turned into Spirit Reaver in Defiance. I think it is very probable that it was her future self from post-SR1 era which got drawn to the forge.

[Brown_Jenkins]

I think I remember now, but wasn't SR1 in the "original" time-line or whatever, and BO2 was what followed after the changes in Defiance? That would mean Ariel wasn't devoured in SR1 because Raziel didn't purify the Wraith Blade that time.

[The Hylden]

Ariel still isn't devoured in SR1. SR1, despite all of the changes the SR2 paradox brought about in Defiance, leading through BO2, happens just the way it did, just as the core events of BO1 still happen the same exact way. Ariel being from the future getting devoured in Defiance means she's brought back from a point AFTER the events of SR1, after Raziel meets her, follows Kain, and eventually follows Kain through the portal tot he past. Then, or later, Ariel is drawn back in time.

[JanosAudron]

Anyone else think that maybe Turel had no real darker purpose being there? Azimuth was know to summon and conjure things. She could of very well went huminah huminah huminah oh crap what is that thing!!

Oh and Ammon dont forget the Spirit Forge calls to ALL of the balance guardians both past and future. It could be that it only calls forth those that are dead. As for Ariel retaining her memories of anything that may or may not have been. We can safely asume that being bound to the pillars she would/could retain all of her memories much as Kain does.

[ammon]

Anyone else think that maybe Turel had no real darker purpose being there? Azimuth was know to summon and conjure things. She could of very well went huminah huminah huminah oh crap what is that thing!!

Oh and Ammon dont forget the Spirit Forge calls to ALL of the balance guardians both past and future. It could be that it only calls forth those that are dead. As for Ariel retaining her memories of anything that may or may not have been. We can safely asume that being bound to the pillars she would/could retain all of her memories much as Kain does.

:lol: that's probably how it went with azimuth, or she could have accidently pick her nose at the wrong time during a summons :lmao:

THAT'S WHAT I'M ON ABOUT!!! if ALL the balance guardians (past/future) are draw to the forge how can ariel still be there in SR!?
and raz at the pillars (D) is set before SR and the spirit forge is set, again, before SR - how can raziel have met ariel is she was now in the Reaver? and if ariel somehow retained her memories...wouldn't it be possible to asume that she would have already known who raz was? if D is before SR?........ *head spins*
oh, that brings up another thing - how did janos (SR2) know raziel's name!! the prophecy never mentioned names!? how did janos know if they'd never met??

:flowers:

[Escaton]

THAT'S WHAT I'M ON ABOUT!!! if ALL the balance guardians (past/future) are draw to the forge how can ariel still be there in SR!?

Because her spirit is drawn back to the Forge from the future after SR, see The Hylden's post. Summoning back an earlier version of Ariel would probably have caused a paradox (Raziel could never be influenced, etc).

and raz at the pillars (D) is set before SR and the spirit forge is set, again, before SR - how can raziel have met ariel is she was now in the Reaver? and if ariel somehow retained her memories...wouldn't it be possible to asume that she would have already known who raz was? if D is before SR?........ *head spins*

Ariel always believed Raziel was the Hylden Lord before Kain refused the sacrifice ("beware the Unspoken"), after which point I guess she realised he was Kain's lieutenant.

oh, that brings up another thing - how did janos (SR2) know raziel's name!! the prophecy never mentioned names!? how did janos know if they'd never met??

Maybe it did mention his name, we don't know.

[Spike991]

Wow, LoK has such a complex story.:)

[dumah's wraith]

He'd have heard of the Sarafan General, and maybe he knew it would be a vamplified version.

[JanosAudron]

Firstly, we dont know exactly at what point in the future the guardians are called. Maybe after death maybe before and maybe it doesnt pull them from the time stream at all and while they are dead/suffering endlessly locked in the pillars (lets face it folks poor Ariel is going to stay there till the end of time muwhahaha...<cough>sorry) they have thier thoughts and forms brought to the forge. Nothing about what was said indicates they are freed which who knows they might be stuck in the reaver blade with raziel playing d&d for the next few million years lol.

As for the Janos knowing raziel's name, well the real answer to that is squirrels. Janos is really the squirrels loyal servant.

Ok seriously lol, It could be the prohpecy said a name, correct me if Im wrong here but did anyone actually say a prophecy exactly? Or Janos might have been able to in his supposed misreading of the prophecy took a peek into a chronoplast chamber and went oh hey our savior is Raziel.

[Brown_Jenkins]

Azimuth: I hereby summon the... *cough* Uh oh... *daemonic growl* :)

The time-stream did have the power to wait and move stuff around like when Raziel had finished all he had to do in SR2 it took hold of the Soul Reaver (or was it the actual Soul Reaver attacking? I thought so at first) and impaled him. I think the minute Raziel had left after the last conversasion with Ariel she was sucked into the nearest Chronoplast chamber and transported to the Defiance-era.

It does shine a light on how annoying life must be in Nosgoth for the NPCs like Turel and Ariel :p

[The Hylden]

Anyone else think that maybe Turel had no real darker purpose being there? Azimuth was know to summon and conjure things. She could of very well went huminah huminah huminah oh crap what is that thing!!

No, I don't think it was that random at all. Turel was possessed by numerous Hylden in the future, before he was brought back. Azimuth and Mortanius both were serving the Hylden Lord at that time. The HL commanding them to bring back this God to inspire their followers, while also bringing back maybe his generals from the future to lead his war, or Hylden of that type of importance, is a reasonable reason for it all.

oh, that brings up another thing - how did janos (SR2) know raziel's name!! the prophecy never mentioned names!? how did janos know if they'd never met??

It has to have been told to him by the one who drew up the prophecys -- of which we have to assume for now that person was the original Time Guardian. Like I've said before, though, I think that Time Guardian knew more of the prophecy then he let on, and told to the others, including Janos, exactly what they needed to know about it.

maybe it doesnt pull them from the time stream at all and while they are dead/suffering endlessly locked in the pillars (lets face it folks poor Ariel is going to stay there till the end of time muwhahaha...<cough>sorry) they have thier thoughts and forms brought to the forge.

No, I don't see how thoughts and "forms" alone are going to imbue the Spirit Reaver. Just like the other forges, some spiritual element would be needed, especially for a weapon with the POWER OF spirit. That had to have been Ariel's soul and if so, then it's her soul brought from the SR1 future, past the time when Raziel and Kain went into the timesteam. Any other time period would cause a fatal paradox.

Or Janos might have been able to in his supposed misreading of the prophecy took a peek into a chronoplast chamber and went oh hey our savior is Raziel.

Janos never peered into the Chronoplast, I don't believe, given Moebius was the one who made the Chronoplast and kept it hidden from all under the Oracle's Cave. Janos spent his thousands of years "alone, waiting" in his retreat. Someone, therefore, had to have told Janos who the savior would be, and again that someone most likely has to have been the original Time Guardian.

The time-stream did have the power to wait and move stuff around like when Raziel had finished all he had to do in SR2 it took hold of the Soul Reaver (or was it the actual Soul Reaver attacking? I thought so at first) and impaled him.

I believe it was the Wraith Blade taking hold of him, again. Just like it takes hold of him to imbue itself int he Dark Forge and later when it turns itself and the physical blade back on Raziel, after he defeats his human self and "all other foes [are] exhausted..." so too does it take hold of Raziel here. Perhaps time also was at work, but the Wraith Blade was ravenous and powerful enough then to do it on its own and it does it for the same reason it does so at the end again: to ensure its own creation. I also believe it also is the reason for Raziel being leached across Kain's in the fight in Avernus, as you see the trail of his energy and the Wraith Blade's coiled from his wrist when Kain catches it, traveling over Kain. Then, as Vampmaster's camera cheat proved ages ago, the Wraith Blade also slinks down Kain's arm from the whole in his chest, from Raziel's hand, at the end of the game, and over the Reaver to again pull Raziel into the sword. It's constantly working to ensure its own creation, even after it becomes tamer in Defiance.

[JanosAudron]

No, I don't see how thoughts and "forms" alone are going to imbue the Spirit Reaver. Just like the other forges, some spiritual element would be needed, especially for a weapon with the POWER OF spirit. That had to have been Ariel's soul and if so, then it's her soul brought from the SR1 future, past the time when Raziel and Kain went into the timesteam. Any other time period would cause a fatal paradox.

Janos never peered into the Chronoplast, I don't believe, given Moebius was the one who made the Chronoplast and kept it hidden from all under the Oracle's Cave. Janos spent his thousands of years "alone, waiting" in his retreat. Someone, therefore, had to have told Janos who the savior would be, and again that someone most likely has to have been the original Time Guardian.


Well for the first part dont forget it was all of the balance guardians not just Ariel.

As for the second it was never made clear exactly who made the chronoplast chamber. Moebius could have made them or any of the time guardians. Personally I'm more inclined to believe the Ancients built them partly to try and see thier own futures and make thier prophecies and partly as a guide for the scion of balance.

All in all I like your theories well thought out.

[The Hylden]

Actually, that's my mistake. Moebius made the Time Streaming devices, but it's never stated who made the Chronoplast. I still don't believe Janos ever peered into it, but anyway...

Well for the first part dont forget it was all of the balance guardians not just Ariel.

Yes, I know. I was addressing the fact that Ariel, specifically, had her soul drawn there to imbue the Reaver, not just memories, or what-have-you. But of course it was all Guardians' souls that were drawn there and combined with her. Back on the point: it doesn't make sense to me that a Spirit Reaver is imbued with anything other than spiritual energy. And Ariel's line in Defiance is enough.

Yes, Raziel - yet I am much more than I was. The veil is lifted from my sight. My spirit, united with the souls of my predecessors, is drawn here now for the final baptism of the blade. To restore Balance, the sword must be rendered pure by Spirit.

In fact, if all it took were the thoughts and images/forms of the Guardians, then Kain wouldn't have had to wake up and be drawn physically there by some force. He could have stayed asleep and mentally visited. His soul can't be ripped there, since it's still anchored to his body, but he still feels the pull.

A apologize for my earlier typos, of which there were plenty:p Very tired when I wrote the above.

[Corpse Core]

In order to make sense of this we need to establish what the original timeline would have been. Kain never killed William and Raziel never killed his Sarafan self or those of his brothers. Thus, Kain doesnt save him from the reaver because he simply didnt exist as a wraith at that moment, in fact Kain was never there either as he had yet to be born. As such, the events of Blood Omen 2 didnt happend as we know them since Raziel was never around to revive Janos Audron whom the Hylden needed.

Ok, so the time line goes on it original coarse if left to its own devices. In this scenario William is the Nemesis as said in Blood Omen and Kain has done nothing to alter time in the slightest. As such, the Sarafan Raziel is never revived as a vampire nor turned into a wraith as Kain doesnt rule Nosgoth as he did in Soul Reaver. So, what we need to figure out is what happends if the Nemesis continues his path of domination, there's a good chance he'd rule all of Nosgoth instead of Kain.

Knowing this, if we break it down and apply all the minor alteration to time based on both Kain and Raziels actions, not to mention the machinations of the Hylden and Elder God thrown into the mix, and it all begins to make sense if applied one at a time.

Hope this makes some sense to you guys, as I may have confused myself just a little bit >.>

P.S. - A vampires soul is forever bound to their body unless torn from it in some way, and based on the info in Soul Reaver 1, a vampires body begins to heal as quickly as it is cut accept for injuries through impalment or those resulting in severed limbs. Thus, it stands to reason that so long as a vampires body has all its vital bits and pieces they can be returned to life.

[Escaton]

I see what you are saying. However, as far as I can tell (keeping in mind that I've never been in a crackhouse and thus am not an expert on temporal theory...) the wraith Raziel always existed and Kain never stopped creating him, except in one variant of time - the timeline we're introduced to in Blood Omen.

I have written a ridiculous essay, read it if you will. My own speculations and interpretations follow, I heartily welcome anyone who can knock large holes in them:

The timeline in which William the Just becomes the Nemesis is not the original one either. It was created by Moebius. Keep in mind what Kain says: "By going back in time and altering the past, you turned William the Just into the Nemesis." Moebius agrees, and Blood Omen's creators have made the whole thing conclusive (see further below). Obviously, then, if both timelines involve altering the past, we have never experienced Nosgoth's "first" timeline - according to Kain and Silicon Knights, if the Nemesis exists we are in one altered timeline, while if Kain rises to power then we are in the other one (and its many deriatives).

I'm not entirely sure how Moebius managed to edit the timeline, however, since he doesn't have free will. He only had one Soul Reaver (one Raziel) at his disposal. So I have to assume that Raziel/Soul Reaver's free will "extends" to others as well (which is true in practice, since Kain essentially creates a new timeline by pulling the Reaver out of him in SR2). So I suppose what he means when addressing Moebius is in reference to the other possible outcome of the Kain vs William fight, which leaves me with three timelines:

1) No Kain vs William battle (the speculative unfettered timeline)
2) Kain kills William - the purge is born (the Legacy of Kain timeline)
3) William kills Kain - the Nemesis is born and Raziel fails to exist (we'll call this the Legacy of the Nemesis timeline)

If William kills Kain, the Nemesis is born (ultimate downfall of Nosgoth). If Kain kills William, the purge occurs (a positive timeline, because it spawns the events of Soul Reaver and everything afterward, potentially allowing both the Hylden and the Elder God to be destroyed after Kain gets his first taste of "Hope"). In the speculative original timeline which we have never experienced, no such battle exists (it's only enabled in "real time" by Moebius' machinations and the presence of the Reavers).

History cannot possibly warp itself around the Legacy of the Nemesis, though, which ultimately results in a very, very fatal paradox. Raziel is a vital asset to Nosgoth's history, and if Kain doesn't live to revive his corpse, he cannot exist and this timeline can't ever have existed either... but according to Moebius, it did. This also messes with the Hash'ak'gik thing since Turel isn't born either and can't be drawn back from the future, though the tome describing the blood rituals exists in the Nemesis timeline, so they still happened. Who are Mortanius and friends worshipping, then? Let's move on and hope we can butcher our way around that. In Soul Reaver, Moebius' retconned monologue says "where time is but a loop, a streamer might seize upon a chance, a fatal slip, and plunge the fate of planets into chaos".

I guess this was his intent with creating the Nemesis. Makes sense, since that timeline is a great outcome for him - no vampires, a lot of death to feed his master the Elder God, room for his resurrection and no Kain or Raziel to stop him. However, the whole thing simply can't happen without Raziel. The entire game of Blood Omen could be history's way out of the paradox - since Raziel fundamentally must exist, the Nemesis can exist for now, but will be undone forever when Kain kills William, fixing the timeline. It's a weird train of thought that I can't fully express. History doesn't directly reject the timeline on the spot, but places Kain inside it and allows him to reshuffle it by defeating young William in the past, undoing the loop.

--Events of the original timeline--
I think number 1, the original, totally unfettered timeline, contained the events of the uncut version of Soul Reaver. Straightforwardly enough, it (I think) just featured Kain murdering all of the Guardians with no threat from William. The Pillars fall as usual. At some point Kain and his legion conquers the Land of the Nemesis anyway (or whatever it was called before the Nemesis existed), thus William did not affect Kain's rise to power.

As such, William's sarchopagus in the Stronghold never existed and Kain can't have been killed there (so he probably had an entirely different death - maybe at Raziel's hands in the Mountain Retreat, the events of the first concept for Soul Reaver, hmm?).

Thereafter, I guess Raziel probably carried out the destruction of the vampires via the Silenced Cathedral, and at some point returned to the Chronoplast and travelled back in time. Everything occured as normal but without Kain's presence. Raziel killed himself and his brothers, and he entered the Reaver at the Sarafan Stronghold in the year 500 Before Blood Omen. The Hylden are still in the Demon Realm for now since the Pillars are still sort of there and Janos isn't reborn, but the Elder God thrives in the future and Nosgoth is screwed. Kain, Raziel and William are all eliminated accordingly.

But still, Moebius (in the past) somehow thinks there's a problem with this because even though Kain and the vampires die and his master is well-fed, it's not satisfactory in the distant future for some reason because the Hylden get out or something. So Moebius "seizes upon a chance, a fatal slip" and engineers the existence of a new timeline with two possible outcomes, hoping that the new threat (Hylden?) will be dealt with.

--Events of the timeline favouring William--
Read over the Players section of Silicon Knights' FAQ, which reveals the outcome of the timeline if the Nemesis continues to exist, having never been killed off by Kain:

"In a previous timeline, William the Just was exactly as his title suggested. A kind, fair and just ruler. Through the insidious designs of Moebius, the Time Streamer, William has become a sadistic despot and tyrant, vying for global domination and the slavery of right thinking folk. For forty years, William conspires with Moebius, creating a fanatically loyal and ruthless army that crushes all in its path, including the Last Hope of Nosgoth, the Lion of Willendorf himself - King Ottmar. William, now known as the Nemesis, tortures and executes those who oppose him. Beheading, disembowelling, impaling peasants and warriors alike in their very own villages. The Nemesis brings with him death and strife, pain and misery, and it will never end..."

"An ancient seer once prophesied the march of an enormous army that would lay waste to the last havens of peace in Nosgoth and bring about the end of civilization. The seer said little of its origin, but noted that it would gather in the wastes of northern Nosgoth, and crush all who opposes its expansion, and that the people would name it the Legion of the Nemesis. The prophesy foretold rape and torture, death and destruction on cataclysmic levels, and that it cannot be stopped. The peaceful pastoral land of Nosgoth WILL be massacred."

Also keep in mind the Blood Omen from the first game:

"There is a magical operation of maximum importance: the initiation of a new aeon. When it becomes necessary to utter a word, the whole planet will be bathed in blood."

This was definitely the Circle's interpretation of the future under William's dominion. The whole planet was probably bathed in blood when Kain's empire existed anyway, but if we take into account what I pointed out above, Kain's empire didn't exist in the "Legacy of William" timeline, which is the only one the Nemesis can exist in and thus must be the one we start Blood Omen in... confused?

Moebius apparently wanted this timeline more than the original one, though I'm not sure why. It does cause an awful lot more death and destruction than the first one, but also brings about the end of civilisation, which can't be good. Perhaps, since it means Kain dies before he and the other two Guardians can be killed, it leaves him alive and well with a chance to prevail against the Hylden (the "inconvenient consequence who will be dealt with in time"). However, the Guardians aren't united anymore. Anarcrothe is on whatever side he means when he tells the others to "stand with us", while Mortanius was on Kain's side and would probably attempt to finish the job by killing the Alchemist and Moebius. I suspect he'd have no trouble with the former, but he's probably destroyed in the end by Moebius in a climactic battle (yippee), leaving the Pillar of Time dominant.

The Legions of the Nemesis, under Moebius' control, could certainly stand against the Hylden in the distant future, and with the Pillars not totally destroyed, he can bide his time and amass that force. But, perhaps, the Hylden and Nemesis armies are equally matched and destroy each other (unlikely, but possible), leading to the aforementioned end of all sentient life in Nosgoth. What a crap timeline. Plus, Kain fundamentally has to revive Raziel, and only he can make him into the Soul Reaver. So history rejects this timeline by default, leading to Kain's victory against William. That cancels out Moebius' idiotic plan, leaving us with the Legacy of Kain timeline, which we're all used to by now.

There's some food for thought. I can't believe I managed to get this far while sober. It's probably all wrong anyway.

[dumah's wraith]

Uh...I'm sorry, but what's going on?

[Escaton]

I've already forgotten.

[Corpse Core]

Ok, from that perspective here's my take on what the original time setup would have been had Moebius not tampered with it in the first place.

William stay's the just man that he is known to be and rules his kingdom with a velvet glove rather than an iron fist. The guardians are still corrupted and Kain in the end still refuses the sacrifice at which point the pillars fall into ruin. At this stage one of two plausible things happends:

A: William begins his own crusade to wipe out the vampires at the behest of Moebius (if he can turn William in the Nemesis, he can most certainly convince him to do a little crusading), and eventually Vorador is guillotined.

B: Kain raises his army of vampires and is defeated in the end by Williams legions of followers. With his people motivated by fear, William & Moebius rally them to begin a genocidal war against vampires, also ending with Vorador being guillotined as a major victory (though Vorador does live at least a little longer with this option).

Regardless of which scenario, the vampires all but extinct since William's legion could most certainly match or exceed the Sarafans efforts some 500 years before. However with Williams & Moebius's demise, Kain is free to raise another army and conquers Nosgoth.

As for punching holes, in the original timeline, for Raziel to become a wraith in the first place the timeline must be able to advance far enough for it to happen, i.e. in the original scenario his Sarafan self and his brothers must have died of natural causes or in a battle with vampires; most likely a mixture of the two. Not by the hand of Raziels wraith self, as the original timeline handn't advanced far enough to begin with to have this happen yet thus it didnt.

And to get back on topic, Vorador was still alive in Blood Omen 2 because Kain revived him, I'm pretty sure thats what happend.

[The Hylden]

Ok, I will cross-address the same point I was making in The Dark Prophecy Fan Game thread.

First off, before doing that, there IS no timeline when Raziel hasn't been made, or else there would NOT have been a Soul Reaver for Kain to find. He finds it before going back in time in BO1's present, before meeting Ottmar...

But, the main point: there is no timeline altered specifically by Moebius. Moebius cannot alter the timeline, being he is bound to it in terms of fate. He doesn't have the free will to change anything. Raziel is the only being in Nosgoth with that ability. Moebius was always fated to go back in time and give William the Just the Sword and always does so, so there IS no timeline BEFORE this event occurs. We open in BO1 on the unaltered timeline, where time has allowed for Moebius' actions already. No paradox creates this event. Moebius simply goes back in time and does what he does. To this, Kain also always gets the time streaming device and does what he does: goes back in time at the Battle of the Last Stand to avoid the Legions of the Nemesis. He's always fated to do this, always fated to then face William in the past. On the timeline we opened on -- the unaltered timeline -- Kain had met William in the past and fought him, just as he's about to do from his perspective, but in the past that forms the present on this timeline, Kain simply failed to kill William. The change to the timeline is that THIS time, since there is a moment when two Reavers converge that the outcome can be altered, potentially (not guaranteed), this time Kain kills him and William's version of the blade breaks under the force of their clash. This doesn't mean that Kain originally got killed here, either, simply that, originally, Kain didn't kill William. I would wager that he simply lost and fought his way out of there in the chapel he fights William, past him and his guards, to escape, and winds up getting the time streaming device left from Moebius (in the hopes Kain would succeed) to return back to his time. All Moebius can do is "seize upon a chance -- a fatal slip" that Kain MIGHT prevail under these circumstances. That line translates to a one in a million-type shot. It didn't happen the first time round (or possibly, it's been looping like this for however long), but the unaltered timeline gets altered when Kain actually succeeds this time.

So, even though Kain, on the original timeline, fails to Kill Willaim in the past, there's no reason to believe this negates the entirety of the future as we've seen it. Kain, most likely, still kills the rest of the Guardians in the present, and still dooms the Pillars. He's Kain, immortal, with strength growing faster in him than probably any vampire before him. I am sure he would wind up defeating the Legions and William eventually afterwards. In fact, I suspect the original timeline played out much the way this finally all does by Defiance's time. Instead of having the revised Sarafan order, perhaps you had the Legions Kain had to fight. Instead of The Sarafan Lord holding the Nexis stone, perhaps it was simply William again with his Reaver. Two Reavers still meet, and this second duel sees either Kain win, or get knocked into his coma ... wake up and finally defeat him the third time around. He then goes on to make his kingdom, with the Lieutenants -- which MUST happen, so Wraith Raziel eventually goes back in time to become the Soul Reaver (again, happening even on the original timeline, or else there would BE no Soul Reaver)... Kain then leads Raziel back in time and the duo wind up in much the same way they do in Defiance. Kain, holding the blade with Raziel's soul inside, purified and ready to face the “great manipulator” in the Elder God. This event: for Moebius, the fact Kain is still alive as the Scion of Balance, is the event Moebius is trying to change. He can't do it himself, but his actions lead us to a moment where the one variable in Nosgoth – Raziel – meets himself as two Wraith Blades. This means that, possibly, one day, one moment in the revolving time loop, a change might come about, so grand, it takes Kain out of the equation for good. You have to figure, if Kain never raises Raziel, he never goes into the past, never becomes the Soul Reaver, Kain never continues on in the past as the Scion, then what in the world is there Moebius is trying to have changed in the first place? And how could he have even tried without a Soul Reaver in existence? He has no reason to go back in time, so if he does so on the unaltered timeline, then you have to understand, he's doing it because these other events are still in place.

[dumah's wraith]

Moebius simply goes back in time and does what he does. .

Moebius doesn't need to go back in time to give William the Reaver. He's alive in that era, he can just hand him the Reaver of that era, put it on Will's tomb once he dies, and then somehow get it to Avernus. You can't change a timeline when you travel without two Reaver's but you can do what you like, restricted by fate, of course, in the era you belong.
Monumental future altering decisions can be made in the present, subject to fate.

[Linikratyo]

Moebius doesn't need to go back in time to give William the Reaver. He's alive in that era, he can just hand him the Reaver of that era, put it on Will's tomb once he dies, and then somehow get it to Avernus. You can't change a timeline when you travel without two Reaver's but you can do what you like, restricted by fate, of course, in the era you belong.
Monumental future altering decisions can be made in the present, subject to fate.

You forget that in that time the Soul Reaver didn't exist yet it was the NORMAL Reaver and that doesn't create a paradox.

[The Hylden]

Well, we don't really know when the Soul Reaver was made on the original timeline. We know, by what we're told, that the Raziel goes into the blade when he does in SR2, 500 years in the past from BO1, as a result of the William the Just paradox, and now in Defiance, it happens 500 years later in the actual BO1 present. But, when it happens on the original timeline is a pure guess. I am guessing it happens much the same as it does now, which if true, means again 500 years later, BO1's present. As long as it arrives back in Avernus for young Kain to pick up eventually, things aren't messed up. As far as when Moebius can get the Reaver, being the Time Guardian, I imagine he can pull the sword from whatever time period it is created, hand it to William, as long as it winds up back onto his chapel for Raziel to heal... So, either Moebius takes the blade from BO1's present, huffs it back in time to give it to William, or the Moebius from 50 years ago in William's present huffs to whenever the Soul Reaver is made, acquires it, and returns to give it to William -- whichever way he does it, he has to do it...

[Corpse Core]

Actually, my original calculation still holds some merit. Raziel is the reaver of souls who is trapped within the reaver blade which is then dubbed the Soul Reaver. I'm not disputing his transformation into a wraith, what I'm getting at is that there had to be a starting setup where originally the sarafan brothers died of natural causes or in battle. This would be part of the original timeline before Raziel looped back and changed how they originally were suppose to die by killing them himself.

Apparently, this minor alteration to time didnt effect it much since they were most likely destined to die around that time anyway.

As for the reaver blade, it was forged by Vorador soon after the Ancient-Hylden war. Most likely around the same time when the pillars were raised. Janos Audron said he was the tenth guardian, the reaver guardian.

[Escaton]

Yeah, in hindsight I take back the idea that William somehow killed Kain, it was unnecessary nonsense. I somehow failed to consider that both of them could still have survived that battle.

I have a full understanding in the first place that Raziel is the one unbound creature and that Moebius didn't alter the past directly, I didn't try to imply otherwise, but since he was manipulating the creature/sword with free will, he still engineered the paradox. I got Kain's context with "by altering the past", that wasn't up for debate.

My main point was that I still must question the idea that the "Nemesis conquers Nosgoth" timeline is to be considered the unaltered one, because Silicon Knights do cite that he lived as William the Just without "transforming" into the Nemesis in a previous timeline without any interference from Kain or Moebius and I can't see any way around it. I don't know if that previous timeline was unaltered but it was certainly more "pure" than the Nemesis one.

Moebius does admit to going back in time to give William the Reaver before he's beheaded, so I'm not convinced that his William-era incarnation did it. Of course this could be referring to the possibility that William-era Moebius had to go back in time to get the Soul Reaver in the first place, but Kain couldn't possibly have deduced that.

Actually, my original calculation still holds some merit. Raziel is the reaver of souls who is trapped within the reaver blade which is than dubbed the Soul Reaver. I'm not disputing his transformation into a wraith, what I'm getting at is that there had to be a starting setup where originally the sarafan brothers died of natural causes or in battle. This would be part of the original timeline before Raziel looped back and changed how they originally were suppose to die by killing them himself.

It's reasonable to assume Wraith Raziel killed his brothers in every timeline because that event wasn't definitively enabled by a paradox (it may have been but not likely); Raziel "always" went back in time. History only ever makes slight alterations to the timeline in a paradox and it would've taken a pretty large one for this to be edited. The only known difference is that Kain wasn't always there to save him from the sword.

[Corpse Core]

Ok, this time loop crap is starting to make my head hurt.

[Escaton]

Aye, tell me about it. And on top of all the rest, I have to make it sound like I know what I'm talking about.

[Vampmaster]

I thought of one way of describing it. It's like in Bill and Ted where they say "When we're done with this, we'll go back in time and steal my dad's keys" (or something like that). The moment they say that, the events are set in motion and the keys appear right were they planned. (Silly example, but it still applies.)

So, in the same way Moebius and the EG go "Once Raziel is created, we lead him back here, have him kill his brothers and then attempt to trap him in the Reaver". The moment they make that decision, the event is preordained and can not be avoided.

Since it has been determined beforehand, this is the original timeline and the free will + two Soul Reavers are only used to create a second timeline where Raziel survives. Similar thing for the BO1 paradox, but Kain doesn't need free will because he's already doing what the EG wants him to to.

[The Hylden]

...Except the keys would have already been in his hands, given that the event has already happened. Thoughts aren't above time in LoK, so deciding to do something in the past wouldn't make the outcome magically transpire in the present. It has to have already been an event written into the timestream's past the outcome. So, again, there is no choice for these characters. They can't just make a decision and then it is so, like Captain Piccard.:p Moebius does what he does because the past is already fated to happen a certain way and he can't change it anyway. I would say, if we are to analyze things further, the timestream allows for characters' distinctive personalties that drive their actions, so even though Moebius is devious and underhanded, the timestream, which is not sentient mind, already has the outcomes of his devious actions plotted along its course because he has to exist within it, as do time streaming devices and the Chronoplast. Because the ability of time travel exists, outcomes of going into the past by certain characters and their makeup are already ingrained within the history of the timestrream before they ever decide what they are going to do as characters, before they are even born.

[Corpse Core]

This is gonna be off topic but there's one thing thats been bugging me. What was the blue-skinned angelic race called before they were cursed with vampirism?

[The Hylden]

It appears they were always called vampires, but that the word vampire in Nosgoth doesn't translate to a parasite that feeds off the life force of others, or the undead, etc... We used to call them The Ancients, but then Janos explained the nature of the curse and the Pillars to Raziel. Going by this conversation and how they have been referred to even in the murals before the curse, both Janos, Kain, and Raziel have continually only called them vampires. Janos: "The Pillars choose their Guardians from birth, Raziel, and vampires are no longer born." This line is very much leading one to believe that the race was called vampires, because before the curse they could breed, yet if they weren't called vampires before then, Janos should have referred to his own race in the past tense like this as their actual name. The line suggests the term being used, vampires, could breed before the curse, yet if that's what turned them INTO vampires, this usage doesn't really make sense. So, it has to be the name of the race before the curse as well. At least, you'd think so. There's really nothing other than this for a definite conclusion, though.

[Armord]

Wasn't this about Vorador return from the Grave? All this is interesting, but way offtopic!

[The Hylden]

Well, that's bound to happen, considering what else can be said about it? :p

One topic leads to another, especially after how LONG this thread has been here. I mean, since 2003!! If this were any other section, this thread would have been locked to prevent bumping of old threads...

[Brown_Jenkins]

I remember reading something interesting on this forum about how the Ancients viewed themselves and Vampirism in Nosgoth. It was something like most of Kain's powers he have he got from the blood fountains in BO1. Then those seem to be constructed by the Ancients when they were Vampires and not earlier to perhaps store their original powers. I mean that much about being a Vampire in Nosgoth seem to be about the curse aspect of it (drinking blood, getting power from blood and immortality).

Then Janos Audron said the Ancients wanted to preserve their race and made humans into Vampires, but what is it to be an Ancient? Cloven hands and feet? Granted Raziel turned blue eventually, even if the Vampires in SR1 were mutated because of the Pillars being corrupted it doesn't explain what happened to Vorador (still on-topic :p ), why he's green and looks nothing like an Ancient.

Personally I would want to believe Janos Audron though he might sound like the only sensible person in Nosgoth is just as arrogant and corrupt as the rest of them. Even if the Ancients were called something else before the curse they like Kain fully accepted it. Just where Kain wanted to rule the world the Ancients wanted to preserve Vampirism which they now fully accepted as "them".

[The Hylden]

Most of Kain's powers were not from the Blood Fountains. He got two strength increases, immunity to rain and snow, and an increase to his magic energy replenishment, I believe. One last one let him assume a better form of the disguise spell, which became Beguile. With this, Kain could be Kain, instead of cloaked as someone else, and no-one was the wiser.

All other spells and such Kain got from the "cards" in Blood Omen, even all other forms he morphs into: bat, wolf, and mist.

The Ancients only turned humans into vampires so they would be better suited to serve the Pillars. Only those humans that the Pillars chose to be their Guardians were turned into vampire. The Ancients were NOT trying to continue their race in this way. Vampires were rendered sterile by the curse. This meant they couldn't procreate, yet they made Pillars that would choose their Guardians from birth... Having no more actual Ancients to choose from, The Pillars chose the only other comparable species in Nosgoth that procreated newborns to choose from -- Humans. However, being human supposedly makes them "not competent to serve" the Pillars... Sharing the curse with them supposedly was to lessen their incompetence:p

We can speculate what Janos meant in this, but I think it's less mentally incompetent that he's talking about, and simply that their short life spans, along with their lessened strength makes humans weaker to serve The Pillars. Plus, it's very much stated by Janos that humans are more susceptible to corruption. In retrospect, I again do not think he's that short-sighted to believe that the humans are more so mentally, like that's their inferiority... The Hylden lord states that Janos was the "incorruptible vessel" that was needed, so I think being more susceptible to corruption is a label to their weakness physically, again. The Pillars can only do so much. The extend the humans' lives, as we see in Mortanius and Moebius, and give them powers, but probably they would give over more were the two to have been vampires/Ancients, than simply human. However, it's also entirely possible that Janos means humans are more vulnerable to corruption and manipulation because they are inferior mentally...It seems to be a bit of both. What Janos, in his arrogance, you're right, doesn't realize is that his entire race was duped to follow a God that is pretty lame, at best. Not only that, but that his race started a war of attempted genocide over faith... Not only THAT, but that they all went crazy and killed themselves after their God fell silent when they became immortal from the curse and they felt they were banished from their Wheel of Fate... Not very superior after all, eh Janos?

And that's the other point: the LAST think in the world the Ancients accepted was the curse... The sterility was bad enough. It meant that they could not be reborn again, according to their beliefs. Or, if they were, that they would be born again as *gasp!* inferior beings! (Humans). You toss in immortality "They imprisoned us in these shells...", which caused the majority of the vampires to commit suicide, along with a God who suddenly fell silent on them, and the LAST thing they're doing is embracing the curse... They loath not only it, but themselves.

This goes back to me stating that they had to have been called vampires before being cursed and vampirism was misconstrued as a term FOR the curse. In Nosgoth, it's not what it means, apparently, only became that after the vampires were cursed in the first place and a stereotype was put on their name from it, probably. I say this because Janos refers to "Long ago ... Vampires were God-like..." This is pre-curse, he's referring to. Now, if vampirism was the name OF the curse, I doubt he'd want to champion it as a name for his own race pre-curse, as that surely would be a vile thing to do.

Anyway, they didn't accept anything. Janos is the only one that didn't either commit suicide, or do so in a way to be bonded to the Spirit Forges, like the other Guardians...

[Corpse Core]

So, basically, the blue skinned race was called vampire. Only after they were cursed did that name become associated with bloodlust and immortality. Sounds about right to me :)

[dumah's wraith]

Most of Kain's powers were not from the Blood Fountains. He got two strength increases, immunity to rain and snow, and an increase to his magic energy replenishment, I believe. One last one let him assume a better form of the disguise spell, which became Beguile. With this, Kain could be Kain, instead of cloaked as someone else, and no-one was the wiser.

All other spells and such Kain got from the "cards" in Blood Omen, even all other forms he morphs into: bat, wolf, and mist.

The Ancients only turned humans into vampires so they would be better suited to serve the Pillars. Only those humans that the Pillars chose to be their Guardians were turned into vampire. The Ancients were NOT trying to continue their race in this way. Vampires were rendered sterile by the curse. This meant they couldn't procreate, yet they made Pillars that would choose their Guardians from birth... Having no more actual Ancients to choose from, The Pillars chose the only other comparable species in Nosgoth that procreated newborns to choose from -- Humans. However, being human supposedly makes them "not competent to serve" the Pillars... Sharing the curse with them supposedly was to lessen their incompetence:p

We can speculate what Janos meant in this, but I think it's less mentally incompetent that he's talking about, and simply that their short life spans, along with their lessened strength makes humans weaker to serve The Pillars. Plus, it's very much stated by Janos that humans are more susceptible to corruption. In retrospect, I again do not think he's that short-sighted to believe that the humans are more so mentally, like that's their inferiority... The Hylden lord states that Janos was the "incorruptible vessel" that was needed, so I think being more susceptible to corruption is a label to their weakness physically, again. The Pillars can only do so much. The extend the humans' lives, as we see in Mortanius and Moebius, and give them powers, but probably they would give over more were the two to have been vampires/Ancients, than simply human. However, it's also entirely possible that Janos means humans are more vulnerable to corruption and manipulation because they are inferior mentally...It seems to be a bit of both. What Janos, in his arrogance, you're right, doesn't realize is that his entire race was duped to follow a God that is pretty lame, at best. Not only that, but that his race started a war of attempted genocide over faith... Not only THAT, but that they all went crazy and killed themselves after their God fell silent when they became immortal from the curse and they felt they were banished from their Wheel of Fate... Not very superior after all, eh Janos?

And that's the other point: the LAST think in the world the Ancients accepted was the curse... The sterility was bad enough. It meant that they could not be reborn again, according to their beliefs. Or, if they were, that they would be born again as *gasp!* inferior beings! (Humans). You toss in immortality "They imprisoned us in these shells...", which caused the majority of the vampires to commit suicide, along with a God who suddenly fell silent on them, and the LAST thing they're doing is embracing the curse... They loath not only it, but themselves.

This goes back to me stating that they had to have been called vampires before being cursed and vampirism was misconstrued as a term FOR the curse. In Nosgoth, it's not what it means, apparently, only became that after the vampires were cursed in the first place and a stereotype was put on their name from it, probably. I say this because Janos refers to "Long ago ... Vampires were God-like..." This is pre-curse, he's referring to. Now, if vampirism was the name OF the curse, I doubt he'd want to champion it as a name for his own race pre-curse, as that surely would be a vile thing to do.

Anyway, they didn't accept anything. Janos is the only one that didn't either commit suicide, or do so in a way to be bonded to the Spirit Forges, like the other Guardians...

Personally I just think Janos is being arrogant because he's a vampire and humans ain't. Short life spans is no excuse, since the pillars extend them. And if they only made pillar guardians vampires, where does Vorador come in?

[The Hylden]

Vorador was the first human the dark gift was passed to, so he was their test subject... They wouldn't want to risk killing a Guardian if they messed up, right? Ha, so yeah, just try it out on that sap weapon-maker over there:p

[Millentree10]

Not sure if anyone has said anything about this yet (I'm not reading through 5 pages...)

But I always thought that the events of BO2 were the result of Kain and Raziel changing the past in SR2?

Thus could be why, even though Vorador was executed in BO, he lives?