Razielim in Defiance?

[HypnoticSpector]

What happend to the razeilim, will we find out in Defiance, are we past that in the story where they don't matter anymore and should just forget about them?

[RA Fox]

I would like to see it explained , clan cannot disappear without any reasonable explanations. "my once proud clan wiped out like excriment from the boot"©Raziel , Soul Reaver [smth like that]

[garbagefanuk]

I think that explains pretty well what happened to them. Kain killed them.

[Darkmaiden]

I do not think Kain killed I believed just didn't deal with his clan and maybe they just died off on their own because Raziel was not there to guide them. Good point to find out because what really happened to them. In SR1 Raziel does wonder what happened to them and with the battle with Kain in the begin Raziel does asks what did he done with his clan. But I think Kain did not give a good enough answer to the question.

[RA Fox]

Even if Kain killed them, wich i consider very interesting, because i don't think that they would so eagerly die and follow their clan leader , Raziel. Kain are their creator as he is Raziel's. But even if so - they were executed by Kain's or other "brother's" servants - we do not know that. Was it so? If yes , then how it happened and why.

[Dormarth]

I wouldn't expect a big explanation. I don't think the Razielim are that important.

[PeopleAreFood]

I would like to see the disappearance of Raziels clan explained more. so i hope it is in defiance but i don't know where they could fit it.


~yours in blood~

[Tesla]

I also believe that Kain just wiped 'em out.

[garbagefanuk]

Kain: "What i created, i can also destroy. Child!"

Raziel: "Damn you Kain! You are not God! This act of genocide is unconscienable"

Kain: "Conscience?! You dare to speak to me of Conscience?!"


So there you have it. Kain all but says "Yeah i killed them, Haha!"

You know its scary i can remember the entire story of Soul Reaver off my head without looking it up on any sites :)

[Nelo]

You think thats scary, i can qoute the who game from memory outloud includign the suppoint like powerups.

[HypnoticSpector]

Yeah but as we have heard, just because someone says something, does not mean it is true!?!

[garbagefanuk]

In Kains case yes? Has Kain ever lied?

[fneh]

I remember saying to a friend after completing SR1:

"but what happened to raziel's CLAN!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?"

he looked at me like I was an idiot and said "....kain killed them!"

Of course he never said it in as many words. I took the "what I made I can also destroy" comment as kain referring to raziel himself. Raziel made his clan, not kain. Kain's sentence didn't make sense because of this. the only one kain made was Raziel and the other lts.

After replaying I took it as kain destroying the clan.....well raziel took it that way anyway. I assumed raziel wasn't assuming wrong. The game isn't quite that deep.

I wouldn't be suprised if we saw raziel's clan again but I wouldn't hold my breath. It's not a major story element really. introducing hundreds of razielim vamps would only be a good idea if you were fighting them. *gets visions of oddworld* "follow me!"

[garbagefanuk]

Well Raziel actually says: "What have you done to my clan degenerate?!" then Kain replies with that stuff i quoted. So i find it very likely Kain killed them.

[HypnoticSpector]

Originally posted by garbagefanuk
In Kains case yes? Has Kain ever lied?

Well Kain did not say that he did kill them, so lying is irrelevant, and you ask has Kain ever lied question mark, yes there is a question mark there. It is not a statment, you are being naive if you are trying to state that Kain does not lying or make false insinuations!

[garbagefanuk]

Give me one clear example of when Kain has lied?! There has been threads on this topic dude.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20206&highlight=has+kain+ever+lied

There hasn't been one documented point when Kain has lied, he never reveals the whole truth but he never lies. Kain insinuates pretty badly he killed them a number of times in SR1 and you're niavé for missing them or assuming he wouldn't kill them after executing their Lord. I'll repeat it again for you to read again. This time pay attention:

Raziel: "What have you done to my clan degenerate?!"

Kain: "What i created, i can also destroy. Child!"

Raziel: "Damn you Kain! You are not God! This act of genocide is unconscienable"

Kain: "Conscience?! You dare to speak to me of Conscience?! Only when you have felt the full gravity of choice should you dare question my actions"

[SirRaziel]

SR2 Spoiler
You never know Raziel kills his Sarafan Brethern after revereing them in high regard for so long

So what if?
Raziel pulls another shocker and accidently plays a direct part in wiping out his clan by mistake, I mean in this series the possibilities are endless

[Stephenls]

Given how Kain doesn't seem to lie, I think it's suspicious how close he comes to saying he killed off the Razielim off without actually saying it. There is a great literary tradition, with characters who don't lie, of having them tell the truth in highly deceptive ways.

Here's another idea:

We don't know whether the Razielim are dead yet, and neither does the design team. They've left it open -- if it turns out they want to use the Razielim in a future LoK game, then he didn't kill them off. Otherwise, he did.

[Insanity]

I must admit, until the question came up on this board, I had never thought much about where the Razelim were. I assumed, like most, that Kain simply said he killed them and it was "end of story."
However, in retrospect I believe that the question deserves more attention. I mean, I'm sure that Raz's clan weren't weak and they probably had a pretty large number at his death. Soeven if Kain killed them all, it couldn't have been an easy task. In addition to this, as far as I can tell, nothing Kain does, especially when it comes to the Kain in SR , is ever done in vain. The fact that Kain did not give Raz an answer better than "So I killed them, it's my right" seems to have us begging for more.
This, I must admit, is in relation to SR2, when Kain gained a new depth and had a reason behind his actions. In SR at least tookI at least took kain for nothing more than a sadistic expletive (sp?) that it was Raz's job to hunt down and destroy. Yet now, I feel that such an act of Kain's part needs more explanation whether or not he killed them.

[omegafury]

i think kain killed them all because he didn't like waht raziel ahd become (hlyden reminiscent ancient-like vampire) so he killed that entire gene pool to eliminate the problem.

basically, i think it was racial cleansing on kain's part

[Insanity]

I agree, in fact if he did kill them all, that seems to be the most likely reason. However I feel that it would be nice to be given a reason for the genocide.

[theeyeman]

I think CD shouldnot reveal waht happened to the Razielim in Defiance. Defiance should consentrate on the bigger story of the Hylden and Kains and Raziel's destinies.
I just like to think that many died in a big battle against the remaining clans. Since Kain cast Raziel in the Abyss, the Razielim were dammed. So the other clans took it upon themselves to hunt and kill the Razielim. Kinda like in Japanese Samurai, once the Diamyo or leader is banished or asked to comit Sepaku (suicide) the entire clan is damned.
So I think the other clans swormed on to the Razielims land and attacked as many as they can.
There could be a few survivors who ran to further land, or flew...
Anyway thats my take.
THEEYEMAN

[garbagefanuk]

The only way we'll ever find out what happened to the Razielim clan, is if we revisit the destroyed Nosgoth which, IMO is very unlikely. Kain and Raziel left them behind. That chapter is concluded in the Legacy of Kain. So logically from what he says and the fact we will never return to find out, must draw the conclusion they are dead. Period.

[Stephenls]

Originally posted by garbagefanuk
The only way we'll ever find out what happened to the Razielim clan, is if we revisit the destroyed Nosgoth which, IMO is very unlikely. Kain and Raziel left them behind. That chapter is concluded in the Legacy of Kain. So logically from what he says and the fact we will never return to find out, must draw the conclusion they are dead. Period.

That's not true at all. Kain could have sent them some time when they'd be useful.

[Insanity]

Also, it is good to remember that nothing in LoK is done. finale ;), or period . Anything can happen in the story, and usually does. Who knows, maybe the Razelim are part of the bigger picture, are part of Kain and Raz's destiny.

[garbagefanuk]

Yeah sure... remind me why exactly they would help Kain and how Kain would need there help? Demi-God needing help off little bat things? I can see it now.

[RA Fox]

Raziel was strongest of his minions, so, i suppose, was Raziel's clan vampires. So they weren't so easy pray. But it is possible that they started to serve Kain , their leader was dead , what else should they do ? Go and die ? I suppose there are 3 variants:
1. Kain ordered to hunt them down;
2. They joined Kain/started to serve him;
3. They fled.

[Stephenls]

Originally posted by garbagefanuk
Yeah sure... remind me why exactly they would help Kain and how Kain would need there help? Demi-God needing help off little bat things? I can see it now.

They don't have to help voluntarily. If there's one thing SR-era Kain is good at, it's being a manipulative bastard.

Seriously, why would Amy Henning drop this perfectly useful plot element? She's not the sort of person to just throw away stuff that could be useful in future games.

[garbagefanuk]

'Cos it's more or less unusable without some very good plot explenations of how they got there, what happened, to them and a complete retraction of Kain, when he pretty much said he killed them.

[Stephenls]

Originally posted by garbagefanuk
'Cos it's more or less unusable without some very good plot explenations of how they got there, what happened, to them

Well, yeah. Most of the plot elements in LoK games need that. The writers are good at it.

"After you were gone, I rounded up the Razielim and flung them back in time. Those that would not comply I killed." Only it's Simon Templeman saying it and it takes four times as many words, most of which are adjectives.

and a complete retraction of Kain, when he pretty much said he killed them.

As has been pointed out time and again, Kain didn't say he killed them. Again, there is a strong literary tradition of having characters like Kain tell the truth in as deceptive a way as possible. He never actually said he killed the Razielim, but he came very close, during a scene where he was trying to make Raziel as angry at him as possible.

[garbagefanuk]

I know he never actually said he killed them. But he was 1 word off from admitting he did. So i tend to assume he did, but for the love of god its just an opinion.

[Stephenls]

Originally posted by garbagefanuk
I know he never actually said he killed them. But he was 1 word off from admitting he did. So i tend to assume he did, but for the love of god its just an opinion.

Fair enough, then.

[Insanity]

Dude, I don't mean that they helped kain or Raz, in fact I didn't even say that. I said that they may have an important part in their destiny. Say they are the Hylden or the ancients in which case they are important to both Kain and Raz's destiny.

[kakarot]

If Raziel was destined to be Nosgoth's savior and Kain knew this then it would be logical to think that Raziel's clan would have a role in all of this.. but who knows? I wonder if CD reads the discussions in the forum?

[Johnny_anoniem]

I think there's simply not enough time for CD to implement the story behind the Razielim in Defiance, just like they decided to leave Turel out in SR and re-introduce them in Defiance, they might be introducing the story of the Razielim in Defiance 2, but that... we'll only know for sure when it hits the stores.
Concerning the Kain/ Razielim discussion.. I actually believe that the moral of the thing Kain said is "He was able to destroy what he created", but since he never really said he did destroy them, he only said this to make Raziel angry with him (you all know why he wanted this...) and never really destroyed them. I think Kain doesn't lie, because he's so arrogant that he thinks he has no reason to lie, like when he told Vorador the truth about killing Umah... he was just so arrogant and thought that Vorador couldn't hurt him anyways, so why not telling the truth...Kain just sometimes rephrases and cuts parts from the truth in a way that it will work out best for him.

[omegafury]

that world was destroyed, raziel ended all the clans except his own, which i believ kain took care of one way or another.

let us remember this the legacy of KAIN, and i would be more interested as to why kain never had have his own clan of kainim,

why did he immediately make raziel, and then rule with him and HIS kin, not a empire of kainim, but razielim, and then make 5 more children?

[Defier]

Maybe becauseRaz wouldnt be able to get the swim/constrict/tk/forceproj/climb/reaver(maybe)/SaW

But it sounds farfetched to me....



EDIT: Omegafury, i mean the thing about the 7more children thingamabob:D

[omegafury]

so what's your own theory Defier?

[Defier]

Well...
If Raz is stuck in the future , maybe he is sent back to SR1 time, and he meets the Razielim?
um.... that wont work....
I dont know a way they could fit in with this game though, but we dont know until the game is released (3 FRIKING days from now!!!!!!) (school days that is:P )
.
Maybe it could happen in some sort of
"Re-Gather a Vampire army thing."
You know, were they gather all the most powerful vampires and get some from the future too....fighting thehilden/revanants

[Buz]

An odd prospect that I can see from where this conversation is headed: what if the ancients are, in fact, the Razielim? It's possible that they were placed back in time to combat the Hylden and set up the pillars thus creating a circular timeline. This could also explain why Janos recognized Raziel in SR2 While this is unlikely I wouldn't put it past Amy as it would be an odd an unexpected turn of events.

[JGibbs86]

that would also explain how only Raz can infiltrate the various forges and open all those doors where as other cannot. The Ancients/Razielim were the architects of the pillars, the reaver, and the forges in order to help their fallen leader to save Nosgoth. The normal wings could be an evolution of theirs. If Raz had lived, maybe his wings would be more angelic.

~xxJGibbs86xx~

[HypnoticSpector]

We get some good ideas when the collective of use work together, maybe we sure get jobs for eidos writing scripts for their video games?

[omegafury]

While this is unlikely I wouldn't put it past Amy as it would be an odd an unexpected turn of events.
who's amy? a writer for the game?

anyway, janos would recognise raziel as the old circle of nine (ancients) had the powers to forsee time (moebius had to get it from somewhere, after all, he's just a human with a job as a member of the circle of nine). so janos knew what to look for when he decided to go find the conscious, living reaver, after all, that is what raz has become, if you want to think of him as still living.

so as this living form of the reaver, is it possible that raz could make a new kind of razielim? it could be done. with the power of the pillars he may one day control.
think how powerful they would be, it won't happen in defiance and it probably won't occur ever but it's a possibilty.

[Haplo]

I know! They'll be in the LOK RTS game. Where you plays as one of Raziel's brothers and the goal is to commit mass genocide on Raziel's clan.

[OugaBooga]

HAHAHAA,I Doubt it,it'll MORE likely be a RPG/FPS where you hunt down the missing parties to extincXion:D

Anyhow,I personally think the razelium will show up,they were NOT killed off & after a while i'am sure they will be the new or is it old ancients.That winged creatrure that ppl KEEP saying is janos is NOT janos but a razelium.i think if janos comes from hell he sure as hell won't look the same just as raz doesn't look the same after the abyss.also since he went to hell it wouldn't surprise me if he looks like raz now.Lastly i think raz will inhabit a new body at some point prally being a razelium body.

[Deathbunny]

ok, so far, the idea that the original vampire were actually the Razielim is the most intriguing concept, but there's something bothering me here.

You guys AREN'T accepting of the idea that when Kain said he can destroy what he makes, and Raziel replies with something about genocide, that the issue was closed, and that Kain had willed all the sub-vampires into destruction, but taking his essence/whatever back from them.

But you ARE perfectly willing to believe that there WERE Razielim?

Come on... Raziel spent an eternity of torment in the bottom of a lake (which equals acid for him) and when he woke up, he didn't have a jaw or genitalia anymore... Do you really think we can trust his memory? He certainly didn't remember he was a Sarafan... and he didn't remember that he was a blue-guy before being a sarafan... or whatever.

I'm just saying that Raziel's swiss-cheese-like brain is probably more quesitonable than what Kain has to say. Even though Turel wasn't around in the game, we did see Turelim... it seems like we'd at least have seen a picture of a Razielim at some point just to prove that they *did* exist. I think what we're dealing with here is either very simple (Kain killed them, because he's the vampire in charge and had 6 other clans which he could lead against them) or very insane (there were no Razielim, Raziel is nuts out of his gord and just assumed he had disciples because everyone else had them).

[RA Fox]

What's the point about genitalia? Memory is stored in it, too ?
If he doesn't have a genitalia it means that he cannot remember anything? Maybe he had a shock when saw himself for the first time after that century and forgot everything :D
You make me die from laughter :D

[Deathbunny]

I'm just saying that the poor guy has had a rough time...

[Haplo]

There were Razielim. He had a rather large area for just himself. He also had a banner, he isn't the overlord like Kain. So if he had a banner, then he had to have an army.

[Buz]

If Kain sent all the Razielim back in time, and they are the Ancients which we see in the murals, and they all died out... Didn't Kain indirectly destroy them?

[Evelin The Winged]

I got this theory...inspired by recycled trash (yeah, that's right)

Ok, so what if the Razielim were the Hylden, and they er...sort of transferred thier blood curse over to the ancients and making themselves free of the curse or..something like that.

What do you think? Like I said, Recycling-but with vampires.

[Eternal Emperor]

I always thought that Kain just hide them somewhere until he needed them. Since SR 2 it's been established that Kain wasn't being jealous of Raziel's wings, he knew that it was almost time for his grand plan to begin.
Our two lovable demons are about to go to war, something that has happened in Legacy of Kain before, and they're probably going to need some help. Why not take the strongest clan and put them somewhere until you need them? From their point of view it's a better option then being hunted down like animals but the other clans.
We all agree that Kain is smart and manipulative (now at least), so why can't he hide them until the battle? I know Kain and Raziel are very hard to kill (Raziel almost impossible) but there's no need to not have fodder when going up against an enemy that has almost no limits.

[Haplo]

What if thats Turel is doing, watching over raziel's clan. If he is and their being hiden until their needed, then this could be on reason we haven't seen him and/or them in any of the games so far.

[RA Fox]

Ghm.. I'm amased. Very interesting, only one thing: how could Kain transport an army of vampires to past. If You know, tell us, too. ;)

[fneh]

Originally posted by RA Fox
Ghm.. I'm amased. Very interesting, only one thing: how could Kain transport an army of vampires to past. If You know, tell us, too. ;)

the chronoplast perhaps?:rolleyes:

[Deathbunny]

Originally posted by Evelin The Winged
I got this theory...inspired by recycled trash (yeah, that's right)

Ok, so what if the Razielim were the Hylden, and they er...sort of transferred thier blood curse over to the ancients and making themselves free of the curse or..something like that.

What do you think? Like I said, Recycling-but with vampires.

I really hope that's not the way you think recycling works.

[Insanity]

Originally posted by omegafury
who's amy? a writer for the game?

Amy is the writer/director of the LoK series of games. At least with CD.

Ok, so whee are we, uh, oh yea. The whole Razelim being the ancients thing. That is definitely a possibility, in fact I seem to remember that it has been discussed in the past. That could explain how Janos knew Raz. Unfortunately, it doesn't explain how they would have lost the blood cure as they would have had to still drink blood when they went back in time. and Janos said that vamps were once born. It may be more likely that they were the Hylden since the colaoration matches and the Razelim probably would have done thier best to take over if they were sent back into time, but I think that that is also unlikely since it didn't seem that the hylden had any esire for blood in BO2.

I especially like the theory that Kain kept tham hidden until the time to use them came. That could definitely be a cool possibility. However I must say that al this theorizing is starting to drive me nuts since the game is only a week from being out.

[Evelin The Winged]

Originally posted by Deathbunny
I really hope that's not the way you think recycling works.

What's that supposed to mean?

[Umah Bloodomen]

Kindly take the melodrama off the boards please. If you have an issue with someone, please utilize private channels and refrain from polluting this thread.

Thanks. :)

[Solin]

i have seen the razliem sybol on the floor on one of the levels in defiance it could be a save point but it doesn't look like it to see the link click here.

http://www.eidosinteractive.com/downloads/search.html?gmid=142#

[HypnoticSpector]

To Umah or Chris, can you tell us if the razielim have anything to do with Defiance?

[Umah Bloodomen]

Aspects of the storyline are not being revealed at this point in time. You're going to have to play the game and find out for yourself. :)

[jackalman]

oh btw that isn't raziel's clan symbol....ahem..

http://www.nosgoth.net/Soul_Reaver/RazClanWarp.GIF

[jackalman]

what the heck? someone edit something here?

[Umah Bloodomen]

I'd make a comment about stating the obvious, but that wouldn't be very nice. ;)

In the future, if you have a concern with a moderator decision you can do as the Forum TOU (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18226) states and bring it to the moderator's attention via Private Channels.

Thanks. :)

[jackalman]

hmm i think you might have overlooked things, i was merely curious.

[Zephonsfate]

Here is my take on what has happened and could occur in Defiance. Kain and Vorador are both somewhat green. Janos and Raziel both have wings (Raziel did) and both are blue with black hair that is in the same style. What if Raziel was the decendent directly of Janos in some strange twist of events. Kain sees Raziel emerge with wings and knows that this is the one among all the saraphim that needs to be cast into the lake of the Dead beginning the twisting of fate. The Razelium would be just like raziel, all with wings and blue in the end. So, Kain either kills or sends them to another place and time to prevent something from happening. Well, I really don't know and this may have been thought of before so I guess we may or may not find out about the Razielum. Obviously if we don't then they are not that important to what happens with the story.

[HypnoticSpector]

Originally posted by Zephonsfate
Here is my take on what has happened and could occur in Defiance. Kain and Vorador are both somewhat green. Janos and Raziel both have wings (Raziel did) and both are blue with black hair that is in the same style. What if Raziel was the decendent directly of Janos in some strange twist of events. Kain sees Raziel emerge with wings and knows that this is the one among all the saraphim that needs to be cast into the lake of the Dead beginning the twisting of fate. The Razelium would be just like raziel, all with wings and blue in the end. So, Kain either kills or sends them to another place and time to prevent something from happening. Well, I really don't know and this may have been thought of before so I guess we may or may not find out about the Razielum. Obviously if we don't then they are not that important to what happens with the story.

I like it!

[Stukedogg]

They've shown a lot of symbols so far. The Raziel symbol either means one of two things, but they will tell us about the Razielum, But it's that or merely a save point.

And have you seen the Hylden symbol? It was the same one from the Hylden city.

[kain lestat]

Originally posted by Insanity
Unfortunately, it doesn't explain how they would have lost the blood cure as they would have had to still drink blood when they went back in time.

thank u, thank u, thank u, i was about to wack my self over the head with a club when i heard the theory. it's like, soo obvious, when u think vampire you think blood sucking bastards (that word does fit because vampires aren't born so hey don't have parents so it sorta fits), i mean how could all those people miss that? (no offence now).

and with the hidding the raz-im thing, it's a cool idea but kain isn't the type that would hide any thing, as the asians say, "head as high as the sy, feet touching the ground", which means you stand tall with nothing to fear and kains is like that, he aint gonna hide an army to protect him self from fear of too many enemies, u kno it and i know it, he ain't no scared freak.
and the thing about the raz-im being hylden, impossible, because ain't none of 'em hyldens look anything close to the pre-vampire raziel, the pre-soul reaver raziel, or the soul reaver raziel and he's their creator so they have to look something like him (like dumah:bulk looking siblings, rahab:fishy looking siblings, zephon: bug looking siblings, and i don't remember the others, but i'm sure their siblings look somewhat like 'em).
and to zephonsfate..... how? kain snatched raziel's soul out of the underworld him self, and he recreated raziel's body himself, and how can raziel be a decendent of janos if BEFORE he turned into a "soul reaver" he had normal looking skin, soo the thing about raziel decendent of janos because of skin color isn't right.
and to the guy that asked that why didn't kain have his own clan, well guess wat, his clan is made of seven members, his LTs. it's just not called a clan because either people are comparing the LT's clans to kains and saying that thats not enough people or the definition of clan is somethin like a group madeof more than 7 people. but i think the def is a related group, either by blood or by getting married.
one last thing, why ain't no one thinking that kain realy just killed the who clan?well sure he didn't say it, but does he ever say any thing to raziel straight out besides for, " janos must not be revived" ? he always get his word as close to the meaning as possible but not revealing it. like in sr2, he said something like "but what if there was another side to the coin where i needed not to kill my self and end the vampiric race just to save nosgoth" (hey i said, "he said something like") we understood it good enough but raziel got to "but" and was totally lost. this is just flipped over to which we got to the word "creat" from "what i can creat, i can also destroy" an we started thinking too deep, coming up with the weirdest stuff i have ever read, while in which raziel heard the whole sentence then he desided that kain had killed his siblings.
the only theory i can think of that makes sense besides kain killed the raz-ims is that they fled and found out how to use the cronoplast and became the ancients, and yeah i know, i had said "what about the blood curse" before, but hey crystal dynamics or slicon knights or what ever could make any thing that makes sense they want.

i mean no offence in this post, if you took it offencsive sorry