How would you compare the new TR games to other 3PSs out there?

[nycgamer]

When you compare Angel of Darkness to other successful 3PS games like Max Payne, Splinter Cell, MGS2, Indianna Jones & TET, Enter the Matrix, etc., where do you think it rises above? (aside from the fact that it's our beloved Lara!) Where do you think it falls short? What other 3PS games do you think they should try to emulate more closely (if any)?

[nycgamer]

No thoughts on this? Controls, environments, plot, anything? I'm surprised... I would have thought that there are a lot of opinions on this just dying to be revisited. Maybe a better topic of discussion would be this: When they do the next TR game (fingers crossed), what improvements NEED to be implemented ~ in our humble opinions? Here's a few of my examples:

1. Quicker, more exciting game intro - AOD is too slow in the beginning. Dead To Rights has a very exciting beginning.
2. Refine those controls, dammit! ~ take a cue from Splinter Cell.
3. Let's get those fantastic jungle levels back. ~ keep it interesting with new worlds, but lets get that "Indiana Jones" style vibe back.

Those are the most important three for me. Here are some 3PS games that I think would be good "homework" for the developers of the next TR game:

Splinter Cell
Hitman 2
Max Payne
Indiana Jones: Emperor’s Tomb
Enter The Matrix
Brute Force
Dead To Rights
GTA3
GTA Vice City
SOCOM Navy Seals
The Getaway (for maps/environs, not for controls)
Metal Gear Solid series
Resident Evil series (for maps, not controls)
Mafia

Future titles (speculatively) :

Kill Switch
Metal Gear Solid 3
Max Payne 2
Hitman 3

[Tipsko]

Well, where it rises above...

Played a few games of your list and I'm a BIG resident evil fan. I've got all the ps2/gamecube(+the incredible expensive ports :p) and pc games. So Tomb Raider, Resident Evil and Metal Gear Solid are three obsessions of mine :)

About the question:

Where Tomb Raider rises above? The first anwer I could give is the media. Tomb Raider rules the media, no matter what kind of critisism (bad critisism lately). Tomb Raider is a game which stand central in game-land. A lot of games are based on this game or compared with it.

Another thing is that Tomb Raider gets a lot more attention in a commercial kind of way. I would almost believe that they've put more money in the commercials, banners and media than in the game itself. The average game internetpage has a banner, picture or something else from Tomb Raider.

And to finish my story,
Tomb Raider has a lot more true fans than every other game. Yes maybe more people liked GTA 3, but GTA 3 doesn't has as much as 'obsessed' fans as Tomb Raider and Lara. Tomb Raider is a concept.

Tipsko

[AndrewIII]

Where Tomb Raider rises above? The first anwer I could give is the media. Tomb Raider rules the media, no matter what kind of critisism (bad critisism lately). Tomb Raider is a game which stand central in game-land. A lot of games are based on this game or compared with it.

I wish that was the case. Right now,nobody in the gaming industry cares about Tomb Raider. Better yet, they actually want Tomb Raider and Lara Croft to go the way o the dodo and die.

Also,why would a game that haven't been innovative since the original stand central? True you have alot of games that copied it,but they copied it and very much improved on it. A game going by the name of Drakan:Order of the Flame is a prime exsample. Who was to think that a very young developer like Surreal Software would capitialized on what Tomb Raider introduced and in the process create something both innovative and ground-breaking. I'm sure if Eidos could get thier hands on such a innovative game, they'll bury Lara Croft six-feet under in a heart beat.

If any long-running game stand central at the moment, it would be the Final Fantasy games. Final Fantasy from the begining proved that innovation can go on for very long time and this can be seen in just every FF game thats been released to current.

Another thing is that Tomb Raider gets a lot more attention in a commercial kind of way. I would almost believe that they've put more money in the commercials, banners and media than in the game itself. The average game internetpage has a banner, picture or something else from Tomb Raider.


*sigh* This is particullary why Lara Croft and Tomb Raider is no longer accepted as something associated with videogames,but rather cheap merchandise to capture the attension of the casual gamer. Not only that,but this why Tomb Raider is doomed.

All I have to say;thank you Nintendo,Sega, and any other developer with a popular franchise/property for not commercializing your franchise/property. That way, you telling us fans that your all about being innovative,you care about the fans, and you franchise have real value to them.

And to finish my story,
Tomb Raider has a lot more true fans than every other game. Yes maybe more people liked GTA 3, but GTA 3 doesn't has as much as 'obsessed' fans as Tomb Raider and Lara. Tomb Raider is a concept.


I also wish this was the truth. Tomb Raider have less fans than any other game series. While the others are gaining, Tomb Raider is loosing. Right now, I would very much say that Nintendo's Legend of Zelda have pretty much run circles around Tomb Raider when it comes to fanbase and number of games sold to date(60+ million copies to date).


Now I'm not saying anything bad about the Tomb Raider games,because I like them very much,but Tomb Raider by no mean is special especially since the games haven't been innovatives since the original. When I talk about innovative, I'm talking about innovative in the way of gameplay and the things that go along with it. All Tomb Raider have been is the same rehash after rehash.


BTW, have you seen Namco's Nina? Now thats a game that have alot potential.

[Mgardiner]

Drakan eh? you probally didnt play the second one on PS2 did you? same thing...better graphics and the leveling system, magic and ranged were worthless you basically HAD to take melee if you wanted to survive. Drakan: OTF was fantastic Drakan 2 was more of a let down for me than TR:AOD, was pretty much the same thing with slightly better graphics. (Rynn and Arokh looked fantastic but everything else was pretty...meh)

[AndrewIII]

Drakan eh? you probally didnt play the second one on PS2 did you? same thing...better graphics and the leveling system, magic and ranged were worthless you basically HAD to take melee if you wanted to survive. Drakan: OTF was fantastic Drakan 2 was more of a let down for me than TR:AOD, was pretty much the same thing with slightly better graphics. (Rynn and Arokh looked fantastic but everything else was pretty...meh)

Yes I played the second one. In fact, its one of the best in my PS2 collection.

Regarding the system, I think Surreal did wonderful job it. Not only did they really have some good side-quest,but the system they used was. It pretty much allowed you excell at either being a powerful Magic user, Archer, or Warrior. The only problems the game had, was slight AI problems and the missing mulitplayer(which was the selling) was missing. Other than those,the game was great.

Now am not saying Drakan is perfect,but its perfect in the way that is innovated a genre and kept that level of innovation up without loosing the feel. Tomb Raider being the forerunner of the genre however, pretty much dropped the ball to the competition.

[jso2897]

I've only played two of the games on that list - Max Payne and GTA3. GTA3 has attracted a lot of attention with it's transgressive themes - but once you get over the initial rush, it's a dead bore. I guess if you're some suburban white teenager who never had to live through any of that stuff, it's engaging. But the gross, pointless and repetitive violence palls rapidly for me.
Max Payne is a little better - great story, great cutscenes, great voice acting - but once the gameplay starts, it's all downhill. It's just a third person shooter. That's all you do. And Max moves and looks like a cardboard cutout on roller skates - pitiful, really.
And most of the other "great" games that the TR haters tout as being superior, are, in my experience, a disappointment. There are occasional rare exceptions, like Alice and a few others - but the Tomraiders family of games has no equal in my book.

[cat03541]

Someone gave a few suggestions for improvements on the next TR, if they make one, and I would like to add to this. I think the game needs to be much longer, and more difficult, like the others have been. It seems to be becoming a trend with game manufactures to make the new games for the most recent game systems far shorter and far easier than previous versions. Am I the only one that feels this way, or do any of you see this too? I really hope that this trend ends with the current versions of the games on the market at this time. Also, since I just completed TR:AOD in record time, I find myself in need of a similar style game to play. I have PS1, PS2, N64, and Gamecube. Any suggestions? Just one note b4 you give a suggestion, I can't play any game that creates that weird sense of motion like in the old wolfenstein games, or the Unreal games, they give me a very bad case of motion sickness and I can't even watch someone play.

Thanks

[nycgamer]

Yeah, I think that "Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb" plus "Splinter Cell" are great examples of how Tomb Raider should move and be controlled. Splinter Cell is much more smooth and reliable than the Indy controls, but still ~ Indy is more similar to the Tomb Raider style. Plus, the level designs on Indiana Jones are more like what I would expect to see in a TR game. If they're going to continue the series, they really have to get someone on board the development team who can bring some serious inspiration to the series. New games with completely new themes are coming out which are taking the 3PS genre and innovating it in little ways that take the genre into the future. Kill Switch, for example (http://www.killswitch.com, will be implementing better, more intelligent A.I. in the enemies, as well as blind cover fire tactics that have never been done quite the same way before. If Tomb Raider would just innovate even ONE thing like that, playing the next game will be less of a disappointment for fans of the series.

[cat03541]

NYCGAMER-
Thanks for the game suggestions. They both look pretty good. Do you happen to know if the Indiana Jones game is any longer than TR: AOD was? And for KillSwitch, I hope it offers simultaneous play for 2 or more people. I am hoping it is similar to Desert Storm, which was a lot of fun to play, even though it didn't have near enough levels.


Cat

[AndrewIII]

Tomb Raider do not need to be like any other 3rd-person game out there to innovative. If that was the case, Tomb Raider would have no artistic value to it, its just going to be seen as a copycat game. Something like that is very bad,especially for ground-breaking game.

What Tomb Raider need to be innovative, is a good reward and gameplay system thats going to want the gamer to come back for more.Thats where the true core of the system is.

[nycgamer]

Originally posted by cat03541
NYCGAMER-
Thanks for the game suggestions. They both look pretty good. Do you happen to know if the Indiana Jones game is any longer than TR: AOD was? And for KillSwitch, I hope it offers simultaneous play for 2 or more people. I am hoping it is similar to Desert Storm, which was a lot of fun to play, even though it didn't have near enough levels.

Cat

Since I've been playing Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb sporadically, stretched out over months, it's practically impossible for me to determine how it's length compares with that of AOD. Good question though.

As for Kill Switch, I'm pretty sure it's a single player game like Tomb Raider. I have no idea how similar it may or may not be to desert storm, other than the fact that you're kicking bad-guy arse.

[Mgardiner]

It's getting harder for the Action/Adventure genre to become innovative because most of the ideas have been done before..after the success of TR1-TR2 the clones just started to be spit out and now look were we are at.

[jso2897]

Mgardiner kind of hit the nail on the head. The fact is that technological innovation in 3rd person game is a dead end - sure, graphics can always improve. But gameplayand capabilities are limited by human reflexes and process retention - these games , after all, have to be playable by a human. It may be that innovation may have to take a whole new tack - artistic and aesthetic, rather than technological. Hire real artists to design characters and environments, real authors and scriptwriters to craft storys and plotlines. How about a crime game by Elmore Leonard, or a cybermystery game by Gibson, or a war game by Robert Ludlum? ( or did they do that?) Anyway , you get my drift. So in a way, maybe TRAOD was a shakey, tentative step in the RIGHT direction, after all. It's too short, and too easy, but the attempt to craft a truly literary story is evident. The characters are well designed and involving - note the numerous threads discussing the relative merits of these characters as if they were real people. I do hope that the CD people who make the next TR game will bear this in mind, and not get hung up on the concept of making it a flash-bang technical tour-de-force

[AndrewIII]

It's getting harder for the Action/Adventure genre to become innovative because most of the ideas have been done before..after the success of TR1-TR2 the clones just started to be spit out and now look were we are at.

Tell that to the many FPS,Platformers, and Racing games that have been done before,especially since none isn't getting old as yet.

Its not hard to innovate a game thats played from play from a 3rd-person view. Real innovation means intergrating new ideas(such gameplay mechanics) into the game so it has replay value. Tomb Raider gameplay have always been predictible,because you know if you have to pull a switch to get through level 1, you also have to pull a switch to get through level 2. Where's the fun in pulling a switch to get every level?

The fact is that technological innovation in 3rd person game is a dead end - sure, graphics can always improve. But gameplayand capabilities are limited by human reflexes and process retention - these games , after all, have to be playable by a human. It may be that innovation may have to take a whole new tack - artistic and aesthetic, rather than technological.

Devil May Cry was a Resident Evil clone,but the innovation did not stop. All I have to say is thank you Capcom for making a excellent game out another that took both routes.

Hire real artists to design characters and environments, real authors and scriptwriters to craft storys and plotlines. How about a crime game by Elmore Leonard, or a cybermystery game by Gibson, or a war game by Robert Ludlum?

I wondered who Mr. Hideo Kojima hired to write those wonderful scripts for MGS. Couldn't be some hollywood scripte writer,because the man is genius on his own. Better yet tell that to the many developers who can craft wonderul storyline.

[Mgardiner]

Devil May Cry 1 = fantastic, 2 = What a joke

Personally for once Id like to see a Tomb Raider game where Lara is actually tied down by what humans can actually do...can we take 3 bullets to the chest and live in rare cases yes. Can we jump what...12 feet into the air? lol no I think it would be quite refreshing to actually play a game where you are a human but are also fightning with the fact that you are human you're not some bloody super man/woman that cant fight tigers right up close etc..dont know if it was just me that feels this way but hey the stamina bar in TR:AOD was a good start lol