Umah discussion

[Lady Minerva]

This was supposed to be a poll, but due to spam (as I'm been informed by other members), this will have to be a regular discussion thread. I was going to wait, but I was encouraged to go ahead and post it anyway, just for the discussion value.

So, okay. Here goes.

How maybe people think that Kain was too hard on Umah, over her taking his Stone from him and running off?

Basically, I think he should have helped her, then have Janos teleport in
to get her and taken her home -- with a note stapled to her forehead, telling Vorador what happened and requesting that the Cabal leader keep her out of his hair for the rest of the mission. :p

Anyway, Umah Bloodomen and I have been having an off-line discussion about this and I have been convinced to go ahead and share the question. In fact, she says she's got some insites to add to the mix, if posted.

Take it, Umah.

[Serul]

Let's not forget that Kain thought that Umah was a spy for the Sarafan Lord.

[Lady Minerva]

Ooo, hey. Yeah. I forgot about that. But I wonder, when exactly, he came to that unproven conclusion?

[Umah Bloodomen]

Okay, I took the liberty to start a character thesis if you will. It will be appearing on my LoK fansite when it is complete. Here are some interesting tidbits of the thesis of Umah pertaining to this current thread. (For the rest of this character thesis, you'll just have to await the site's completion. :p)




Umah’s Betrayal: Premeditated or Impulsive? Is Love Something To Consider?

With the many ironies of the Legacy of Kain Series™, I felt that it was inevitable that Umah would betray Kain. Despite this, I believe that her motive for doing so wasn't as vindictive as most other characters who have done the same. I believe that Umah simply wanted to be the hero, I didn't get the impression that she wanted take away all that Kain had accomplished. As Kain continued on through Blood Omen 2™ his arrogance became more apparent. I am willing to believe that Vorador had discussed Kain and his arrogant, power-hungry nature with his child following Kain’s defeat at the hands of The Sarafan Lord 200 years ago. Umah most likely disregarded Vorador’s warnings of Kain as she cared for him during his slumber. I believe that this is when she learned to hold feelings for Kain. By the time that Kain had awakened, Umah was beginning to fall in love. As she retrained Kain, I believe she naively felt that Vorador was wrong about him, and even perhaps underestimated him herself. I don’t believe that Vorador ever really liked Kain on account of Kain’s desire for power. Umah foolishly stated at the beginning of Blood Omen 2™ that the Cabal could not defeat the Sarafan alone, and that they were willing to put everything on the line in order to enlist Kain to help their cause. When it appeared that Kain grew closer to his victory over The Sarafan Lord, Umah panicked. She was devoted to Vorador and Kain was infringing on that bond and making her look like less of a leader to her kind. Fearing her own embarrassment and perhaps feeling that she was no longer Vorador’s “favorite”, Umah needed to do something, and fast. In her mind, taking the Nexus Stone surely would protect her from being defeated by The Sarafan Lord. At this point, nothing mattered but her own reputation. Did Umah love Kain? Yes. I believe she did, however, she proved willing to throw her feelings aside to maintain the bond with her sire, Vorador, without weighing the consequences of her actions first.


Umah’s Death: Justified or Uncalled For? Did Kain Love Umah?


What kind of leader would Kain be if he had spared Umah? Kain would be a total hypocrite if he let her live, and destroyed others who committed trespasses against him (Marcus, Faustus). She betrayed him by stealing his glory, actually not necessarily HIS glory per say, but THEIR glory. From the dialogue, it seemed that Kain was willing to share the victory of defeating the Sarafan Lord, however Umah's impulsive nature prevented that. I agree that Umah gave Kain what he wanted to hear as opposed to the truth, which in fact condemned her. He was justified in taking her life because a good leader must ensure just punishment for subjects who step out of line, this leads to deterring similar crimes from taking place. Umah's death occurred as a just punishment. I don't think Vorador even questioned the punishment when Kain let him in on the details surrounding Umah’s death. Although Vorador was shocked and upset by the death of his child, (as any parent would be) he didn’t really argue about it, nor did he seem to resent Kain for doing it. Umah betrayed Kain and let down her beloved Cabal. Perhaps Vorador was embarrassed by Umah’s actions in the end. Either way, he knew what the result of treachery was, and could only respect the punishment enforced. I believe it was obvious that Kain had feelings for Umah. Allowing himself to feel love for anyone must have been a difficult task since becoming a vampire. Even at the time of her death, Kain never talked down to Umah, yelled at her, nor did he question why she had betrayed him. I believe Kain was tortured by having to take Umah’s life but had to inform her of what she had done wrong, perhaps to justify his actions to himself. I believe it was a sign of true love to both comfort Umah yet still punish her. I believe that Kain felt that he was doing her a favor, sparing her from a more agonizing death at his hands, as well as sparing her from the future events of Nosgoth..



What If Umah Had Lived?

Kain was not stupid. He knew that whatever compassion he began showing Umah would only get in the way if he had let her live. She is again, too impulsive and would jeopardize Kain's rise to glory. No offense, but if I worked as hard as Kain did and put up with the things Kain had over the course of these games I would most definately not want to jeopardize it for mere impulse. Perhaps if Umah had actually took the time and effort to discipline herself, then the jeopardy would be worth making her Kain's queen. If Umah had been spared, she would indeed have gained some of Kain's gifts but I still stand behind the argument that she is WAY too impulsive and naive to use them. (I refuse to call her "stupid" just lacks common sense. (She strikes me more as “book smart” rather than “street smart”). I think she would let his power go straight to her head and would've ended up getting herself killed anyway. I am willing to believe that if Umah lived, she and Vorador would clash instead of upholding the close-knit relationship that they did. Vorador and Kain don't get along because of Kain's arrogance and whatnot, and you know Kain would try to instill some of that trademark arrogance into Umah, perhaps taking her on as his own "prodigy". I mean he did instill his arrogance in 6 other individuals we all know and love.(The Sarafan brethren). I would stand to think that Vorador may have even taken Umah out if these events transpired, he's not one to jeopardize all that he's worked hard for just because of someones lack of good judgement. He still remained reserved about many of Kain's actions in BO2.


I hope this further's our off-forum discussions Minerva! I think you will find some of my ramblings a bit interesting. Looking forward to some feedback. :)

Umah character thesis is a written work of Umah Bloodomen - Copyright 2002. All Rights Reserved. Not for reproduction without expressed permission.

[Lady Minerva]

I'm not done reading this yet, but before I forget, I 've got to point out that General Hylden defeated Lord Kain 200 years ago, ... not 400.

On Umah's Motivations:
There was also Kain's ambitions in themselves. She seemed afraid of what might happen if he did win, how he would rule. Would his rule really be more just that General Hylden's? Or would he see the Cabal (at that point obsolete) as a threat to his position and wipe them out? In fact, she seemed so sure that he would metamophosize into the thing that they hated and feared that she seemed to go so far as to exclude him from their race, referring to her band as "we vampires" (or was it "us vampires"?), ... like he wasn't one of them anymore.

Vorador's Reaction:
Still, he was pretty preeved at first, huh, when he heard how the girl died? Seems like our boy just can't seem to stay out of trouble, ... even with his associates. :p

[Umah Bloodomen]

Typo on my part. I had a reference to the events of BO1 being 400 years before Kain woke up. (As you can see I changed direction with the point. I'll edit that out.

[Lady Minerva]

Good points, tho'. I should've seen some of that coming myself.

An interesting point with their relationship.

It's touching, isn't it, when he commends her courage as she's dying. The way he speaks softly to her in a voice so gentle, it almost doesn't sound like him -- and the way he gently strokes her, with his claws away from her so he doesn't stratch her in the process.

For a brief moment, he almost seems, well, ... human again. Or at least a little humane. :)

Huh. That doesn't last long, tho', when she tells him what he and we all already know, that she's dying. And his response (that cold, decisive tone) is that he's not likely to lift a claw to help her, ... not that he doesn't lift a claw -- except to put her down. :rolleyes:

One thing's for sure: here's a guy you don't mess with.

[SirRaziel]

I wonder what will happen if Raziel ever finds out?

[Umah Bloodomen]

It's not Raz I am worried about.... **looks around innocently*** It's Blincoln. :p


Hell hath no fury like a Blincoln scorned. ;)

[SirRaziel]

Want me to put it in my comic? Raziel finds out about Kain and Umah.

[Umah Bloodomen]

I don't think Umah is quite Raziel's type but sure go ahead. :)

[Lady Minerva]

Just testing my signature image. Cool, huh?

[Umah Bloodomen]

However I feel you are going to get a response from the higher ups that periodically check the forums. Now. I had a tall sig and received this in the LoK Community chat:

Originally Posted by XComTime for reminder:

Signatures
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Quick examination of this forum revealed the fact that some members go beyond permitted width and height limits. Please, adjust your signatures accordingly.

Thanks!

I had one of Umah sitting ontop of Blincoln's computer and (as you can see) I had to change mine to fit the requirements. :(
**cries because she can't pay homage to Blinc**

[Vampmaster]

In SR2, when Kain is explaining how Nupraptor corrupted the circles minds with suspisions of treatuary (sp?). Well I think this has made Kain paranoid, suspecting everyone of being traitors the second they even question him. This is what I think it means that he is corrupted. This is also why he will deal with treatuary with the severest of punishments.

[BadGuysAlwaysWin]

Actually, Nupraptor DOES infect the Circle because he believes one of them slew Ariel. Most likely, however, Kain's "madness" is that he does not live and die to maintain the balance, but rather, does what he personally feels is right.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Originally posted by Vampmaster
In SR2, when Kain is explaining how Nupraptor corrupted the circles minds with suspisions of treatuary (sp?). Well I think this has made Kain paranoid, suspecting everyone of being traitors the second they even question him. This is what I think it means that he is corrupted. This is also why he will deal with treatuary with the severest of punishments.

Treachery btw... ;)

[Vampmaster]

Originally posted by BadGuysAlwaysWin
Actually, Nupraptor DOES infect the Circle because he believes one of them slew Ariel. Most likely, however, Kain's "madness" is that he does not live and die to maintain the balance, but rather, does what he personally feels is right.

That's not madness, it's the sanest thing he does in the game. If he made the wrong decision (which I don't think he did), it was because of the "madness". Madness isn't something you do, it's a way that you think.

[Azuriel]

Kain saves an entire race from extinction, and prevents the demons from penetrating the primary realm. that is not a personal decision.

[BadGuysAlwaysWin]

I cannot help but think that Kain's decision to not sacrifice himself was not based on preventing the Hylden from entering Nosgoth - especially since he did not know about them. I already pointed out that all the selfish decisions Kain makes somehow turn out to be the CORRECT decision, but at the time that he makes them, they are selfish decisions nonetheless. The prime example of this is his damning of the Pillars. Although it was the correct choice, as it allowed Vampires to exist, who can now go back in time and FIX the problem, it was not made for the decision of ultimately saving everyone. Kain felt angry at the Humans and the Circle, for they had done nothing but manipulate him (Mortanius had him killed, Moebius had him basically kill his own species, and Ariel lied to him to have him wipe out the Circle). And if one had to choose examples of Races, give one Human that would be able to equal the great Vorador? Thus, Kain chose to damn the world of Humans, rather than to wipe out the world of Vampires. But since he WAS the last Vampire, this IS a case of sacrificing the many to save the one. Which is a selfish decision.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Let me ask you something. If I walked up to you and told you that you have to kill yourself for this reason, without going into detail about it, would you be so willing just to throw your future away along with everything you worked for prior to the moment of being asked?

I understand sacrifices need to be made, but no offense, I would certainly want to find out all the reasons why I supposedly "need" to terminate my own existence.

So it is selfish? Where the hell were the beloved humans to help Kain when he was being assassinated? Even when Kain returned as a vampire, his assassins still roamed freely. They weren't punished, they weren't murdered themselves/ They were still walking around, most likely commiting crimes and whatnot.

I most certainly would hold a grudge and put my existence before that of others in this sense, ESPECIALLY to seek out the answers of why I should not hold that grudge and eventually help humanity and Nosgoth. Obviously Nosgoth is a dog eat dog world and this is a classic example of Darwinism (survival of the fittest). Kain is "visibly" the fittest right now. If he sacrificed himself tomorrow, doesn't necessarily mean that Nosgoth will go back to being a "happy place". There are still manipulative beings around to contend with. Either Kain stays around to seek those beings out so that when the time comes to sacrifice himself (if that be the case) then him doing so will indeed have a benefit. I don't think Kain is an idiot, and therefore don't think he will take such a drastic leap if nothing good were to come of it. (Meaning his death didn't change a damned thing).

[Vampmaster]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that he can't make mistakes or rash decisions (such killing allies because of paranoia) because of the effects of Nupraptor corrupting his mind.

[BadGuysAlwaysWin]

Actually, Kain knew exactly WHY he was being asked to sacrifice himself. And, honestly, when Ariel said "there is no cure for death, only release," I honestly felt that Kain knew that he would be given a chance to RETURN to death at the end of his mission, rather than the Abyss (the place the Vampires go when they die, according to Vorador). Thus, I think that Kain wasn't TRICKED, in that he thought he would be returned to life and at the last minute, the truth was SPRUNG on him. It was just that Kain did not KNOW that he was the Circle of Balance. Ariel did not feel the need to tell him this because Kain SOUGHT release. I feel that Kain made his decision for these reasons:
Kain was disgusted: Kain had seen the reality of Humanity. Good (Ottmar) was defeated by evil (the Nemesis), and even when Kain went back in time to change all this, evil still won (in the form of the Vampire Hunters. By the way, what do you think happened to Ottmar now? I say that, since Kain already knew the strengths of his army and his strategies, Ottmar and Willendorf were the first powers to fall to Kain's army at the end of BO1, in that 200 year conquering spree that he had). Kain thus felt that he was better than all the people that were to be "saved," and so decided to "save" himself.
Kain was a changed man: When Kain originally began the quest, he fully knew that he would die at the end. He also felt that Vampirism was a hideous curse. Over the course of his adventures, however, he met evil, horrible Humans, and righteous, just Vampires. In fact, Vampires were more heroic in BO1 than any of the Humans. Kain grew to enjoy life as a Vampire, and so, naturally changed his mind about sacrificing himself. He did not know, when he started, that his death was the KEY to restoring the Pillars; he had naturally assumed that it was to be his reward. And so, he decided to live.
Kain was power-hungry: With the extinction of the mighty Vampires, and the destruction of the Circle of Nine, Kain was the most powerful being on Nosgoth. With his newfound weapons and abilities, Kain was a match for any mortal army. His entire mortal life, he had sought power, and fought for power. Now, in death, he had finally achieved power, and absolute power at that. Why would he want to sacrifice this? As he had already indicated, Coorhagen was a dog-eat-dog place, and Kain had grown up as the perfect son of Coorhagen.
Kain was mad: I don't mean "angry" mad; I mean "Nupraptor" mad. Kain was mad from birth. The Madness manifested differently in each of the Circle Members, and seemed to alter the way they carried out their duties: Bane, Guardian of Nature, corrupted Nosgoth and created Dark Eden; Azimuth, Guardian of Dimensions, ripped the fabric of reality; Moebius, Guardian of Time, changed history; Mortanius, Guardian of Death, directly had someone killed and then resurrected him; Malek, Guardian of Conflict, hid himself away in a mountaintop castle while violence erupted everywhere; Dejoul, Guardian of Energy, distorted magic to create Dark Eden; Anacrothe, Guardian of States, disrupted the being of all creatures in Dark Eden; Nupraptor, Guardian of Mind, went mad and in turn made everyone else mad; and Kain, Guardian of Balance, chose himself above the Balance of the Pillars and of Nosgoth. Therefore, I think that Kain's insanity made all the other reasons I stated (which a regular Pillar of Balance would have disregarded) seem to justify his damning Nosgoth to maintain his own life.

[Non-existent]

BadGuys:

I love this one: Thus, I think that Kain wasn't TRICKED, in that he thought he would be returned to life and at the last minute, the truth was SPRUNG on him.
Actually, he was tricked, and quite expertly. Ariel said there was no cure for death, she never said anything about Vampirism, then she offers him the one thing to best manipulate him, hope. She tells him he will find 'release' from his curse if he cleanses the circle. Irony is that he does not seem to equate being dead and his vampirism as the same. No, Ariel is quite the deceiver and destroyer of balance herself. Love has no place in balance, neither does revenge, Ariel has both.

And to this: Kain was mad: I don't mean "angry" mad; I mean "Nupraptor" mad. Kain was mad from birth. The Madness manifested differently in each of the Circle Members, and seemed to alter the way they carried out their duties: Bane, Guardian of Nature, corrupted Nosgoth and created Dark Eden; Azimuth, Guardian of Dimensions, ripped the fabric of reality; Moebius, Guardian of Time, changed history; Mortanius, Guardian of Death, directly had someone killed and then resurrected him; Malek, Guardian of Conflict, hid himself away in a mountaintop castle while violence erupted everywhere; Dejoul, Guardian of Energy, distorted magic to create Dark Eden; Anacrothe, Guardian of States, disrupted the being of all creatures in Dark Eden; Nupraptor, Guardian of Mind, went mad and in turn made everyone else mad; and Kain, Guardian of Balance, chose himself above the Balance of the Pillars and of Nosgoth. Therefore, I think that Kain's insanity made all the other reasons I stated (which a regular Pillar of Balance would have disregarded) seem to justify his damning Nosgoth to maintain his own life. No, no, no. The One with Morty is all wrong. No one said Morty could not kill others and even ressurect them, that may have been a habitual duty he performed from the beginning to learn the secrets of the dead, no one knows. Malek may have retreated, but that means nothing, it means he embodies conflict, it does not mean he has to be in the middle of it, in fact, Malek built himself a fortress and army, seems perfectly in line with what a Gurdian of Conflict would do to prepare for a siege.

Your list is only half complete, in that you list the effect, but not the cause. The effect was the misuse of the Pillars powers, the cause was the insanity making them hate Nosgoth and see it as their playtoy. Nupraptor's insanity was a deep hatred for the Circle and Nosgoth. Each Circle member, infected with his madness began to mistrust eachother and began to attack Nosgoth. The Misuse of the Pillars was effect, an aspect of an insanity that would demand their attacking Nosgoth no matter what. See, the madness did not manifest differently, in fact, it manifested quite uniformly, only the tools used were different. The madness was bringing pain, destruction, and death to Nosgoth. The tools were each of the Guardians' Pillars.

Mortanius is a unique case. There is no evidence of his use of his pillar to attack Nosgoth. Do not point at Kain and say, "Ah Ha!" because Kain was actually raised to do what Morty apparently saw no one else could do, cleanse the circle, that Kain was already a person that would bring suffering to others is quite apparent. Morty in fact seemed rather constrained in his insanity, except for one thing, he admits he is no longer sane. (Then there is the whole possession thing, which tends to put a damper on the relationship between Guardian and Pillar)

BadGuysAlwaysWin: I already pointed out that all the selfish decisions Kain makes somehow turn out to be the CORRECT decision, but at the time that he makes them, they are selfish decisions nonetheless. Think about this, could it be, despite his madness, Kain's wrong/selfish decisions are in fact his innate sense of balance manifesting itself despite his madness? Sure, he may not know his not killing himself was the right thing, but it does not mean the Pillar is not acting through him. Kain has an advantage no other Guardian had, he was raised insane from birth with no knowledge of his role as Guardian and the power it gives him. Then there is the dubious manner of the Court of Coorhagen, a cruel and vindictive court from what little we are told of it, that would make Kain seem only a little more extreme than his fellow noblemen. Such an upbringing may have caused the madness in him to be somewhat different.

Throughout each game it is never seen that he used the Pillars strength in any way, shape, or form. If anything it appears he never was given the benefit of fully developing the symbiotic link to his pillar, which makes it so that balance can still act through him. If he is making the right decisions despite his best efforts to be selfish then maybe he has not misused the Pillar at all and has been serving Balance unwitting from his birth. Something to think on.

Case in example: and Kain, Guardian of Balance, chose himself above the Balance of the Pillars and of Nosgoth. Therefore, I think that Kain's insanity made all the other reasons I stated (which a regular Pillar of Balance would have disregarded) seem to justify his damning Nosgoth to maintain his own life It was selfish, but was he truly placing himself above balance, or was balance perhaps exerting enough influence on him to truly make him decide to embrace his vampirism? After all, any true balance guardian would have known through the balance itself that their death would not have served the balance, they would have felt it, if not known it (another indication that Ariel is not still part of the balance).

[BadGuysAlwaysWin]

OK, real kwik cuz I had it all written out and accidently pressed a link and lost the WHOLE thing GRRRRR.

I love this one:

Way to go.

Actually, he was tricked, and quite expertly. Ariel said there was no cure for death, she never said anything about Vampirism, then she offers him the one thing to best manipulate him, hope. She tells him he will find 'release' from his curse if he cleanses the circle. Irony is that he does not seem to equate being dead and his vampirism as the same. No, Ariel is quite the deceiver and destroyer of balance herself. Love has no place in balance, neither does revenge, Ariel has both.

You would have to be pretty uneducated in vampire lore to not think that telling a vampire "there is no cure for death only release" isn't saying anything about vampirism. Also, Kain never ever EVER puts any differentiation between death and Vampirism, since he calls vampirism "unlife", which means "death". He can't call it death because Vamps die too. She doesn't say "die", she says "release", which likely means that he would return to a MORTAL death (Heaven or hell, and since Nosgoth is religious, he might think that he would enter Heaven due to the good he is doing by saving Nosgoth). Ariel doesn't deceive at all and definately destroys nothing. Since we don't know of any rules against love, that last sentence is also incorrect.

No, no, no. The One with Morty is all wrong. No one said Morty could not kill others and even ressurect them, that may have been a habitual duty he performed from the beginning to learn the secrets of the dead, no one knows. Malek may have retreated, but that means nothing, it means he embodies conflict, it does not mean he has to be in the middle of it, in fact, Malek built himself a fortress and army, seems perfectly in line with what a Gurdian of Conflict would do to prepare for a siege.

Explain to me how "no one knows", and yet you are so sure that I'm "all wrong"? That's a bit hypocritical. Either way, we know that Guardians get their powers from whatever their link with the Pillar is. And since each Pillar was originally meant to protect Nosgoth, the Pillar of Conflict would likely have to prevent CONFLICTS from erupting into war. Malek thus retreats to his Bastion instead of preventing the wars (the Nemesis).

Your list is only half complete, in that you list the effect, but not the cause. The effect was the misuse of the Pillars powers, the cause was the insanity making them hate Nosgoth and see it as their playtoy. Nupraptor's insanity was a deep hatred for the Circle and Nosgoth. Each Circle member, infected with his madness began to mistrust eachother and began to attack Nosgoth. The Misuse of the Pillars was effect, an aspect of an insanity that would demand their attacking Nosgoth no matter what. See, the madness did not manifest differently, in fact, it manifested quite uniformly, only the tools used were different. The madness was bringing pain, destruction, and death to Nosgoth. The tools were each of the Guardians' Pillars.

Anyone who doesnt know the cause of the Corruption shouldn't be in this discussion. Nupraptor's insanity is explained already, and its not a hatred. It's grief for Ariel's death and a SUSPICION that it was other Circle Members who murdered her. Their madness shapes out to be each member doing the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently their to do (don't say they all attack Nosgoth, because Malek and Mortanius don't, but they ARE insane. That means that Malek's retreat from conflict and Mortanius' resurrecting Kain would have to be the OPPOSITE of what they are meant to do).

Mortanius is a unique case. There is no evidence of his use of his pillar to attack Nosgoth. Do not point at Kain and say, "Ah Ha!" because Kain was actually raised to do what Morty apparently saw no one else could do, cleanse the circle, that Kain was already a person that would bring suffering to others is quite apparent. Morty in fact seemed rather constrained in his insanity, except for one thing, he admits he is no longer sane. (Then there is the whole possession thing, which tends to put a damper on the relationship between Guardian and Pillar)

Read above.

Think about this, could it be, despite his madness, Kain's wrong/selfish decisions are in fact his innate sense of balance manifesting itself despite his madness? Sure, he may not know his not killing himself was the right thing, but it does not mean the Pillar is not acting through him. Kain has an advantage no other Guardian had, he was raised insane from birth with no knowledge of his role as Guardian and the power it gives him. Then there is the dubious manner of the Court of Coorhagen, a cruel and vindictive court from what little we are told of it, that would make Kain seem only a little more extreme than his fellow noblemen. Such an upbringing may have caused the madness in him to be somewhat different.

I just said that. Look at it like this: if you punch a guy because he ran and bumped into you, and later found out that he was running from a bank robbery, you DIDN'T punch him to stop a burgler, you PUNCHED HIM because he BUMPED INTO YOU. Kain finds out LATER that what he did was good. At the TIME, however, he is doing it for HIMSELF. Just because it becomes the RIGHT decision doesn't make it the HONEST one. Also, his upbringing as a Coorhagen noble has no bearing on his insanity. He just grows up with the times, and makes bids for power. It's his MADNESS that causes him to place this above the welfare of the world and to not care of his fellow man.

Throughout each game it is never seen that he used the Pillars strength in any way, shape, or form. If anything it appears he never was given the benefit of fully developing the symbiotic link to his pillar, which makes it so that balance can still act through him. If he is making the right decisions despite his best efforts to be selfish then maybe he has not misused the Pillar at all and has been serving Balance unwitting from his birth. Something to think on.

And? The Pillars are DESTROYED. Besides, quite possibly, the power of the Pillar of Balance is to restore the Balance. Perhaps KAIN was the only one who could kill the other Pillars because HE was the Pillar of Balance. Maybe THIS was the power of the Pillar, to shape the Pillars and Nosgoth as needed. Kain abuses this without even knowing, then.

It was selfish, but was he truly placing himself above balance, or was balance perhaps exerting enough influence on him to truly make him decide to embrace his vampirism? After all, any true balance guardian would have known through the balance itself that their death would not have served the balance, they would have felt it, if not known it (another indication that Ariel is not still part of the balance).

We know that the Pillar of Balance was corrupt because it is CRACKED and BLACK, showing that Kain is also tainted with MADNESS. THAT is the irony, since he does the opposite of what he was meant to do since birth (the opposite of the Pillar's essence, since that apparently is the nature of the Madness). Kain's death would restore the Pillars as far as anyone knew. Kain does not choose to live because he thinks it won't restore Balance; he is quite plain, actually. "Once I embraced my powers I realized that Vorador was correct. We are gods - dark gods - and it is our duty to thin the herd." Thus, as I pointed out, he LIKES being a Vampire now and since he is the STRONGEST being in the world, he decides to keep living.

[Non-existent]

BadGuys: You would have to be pretty uneducated in vampire lore to not think that telling a vampire "there is no cure for death only release" isn't saying anything about vampirism. Also, Kain never ever EVER puts any differentiation between death and Vampirism, since he calls vampirism "unlife", which means "death". He can't call it death because Vamps die too. She doesn't say "die", she says "release", which likely means that he would return to a MORTAL death (Heaven or hell, and since Nosgoth is religious, he might think that he would enter Heaven due to the good he is doing by saving Nosgoth). Ariel doesn't deceive at all and definately destroys nothing. Since we don't know of any rules against love, that last sentence is also incorrect.
Nope, you'd have to be a recently resurrected mortal who wanted revenge and now wants to be alive again. Kain probably did want to be alive, if he wanted death he could have at any time. Notice how he does not jump in a lake, or drink some poisoned blood, or any of the multitude of things that can kill him, and quite quickly at that?

To quote BO1 directly: Kain: Only when all the Pillars were restored, did Ariel claim my curse would end.

He may very well be holding out for a cure even though he was told one does not exist. If all he wants is to die he can at about any moment he so chooses. Ironically even though he is told by Morty that to truly get revenge he needs to go after the Pillar Guardians he does not mention revenge once more, meaning he abandoned it for a cure. Ariel did trick him, she gave him hope telling him that if he killed Nup and the others he would find peace from his torment, yet being Kain it sure does not sound like he equates peace with death now does it?

I am not saying he did not know he would find death as the release, the game happens to breeze over that. The fact that he looks for a cure when he is not truly immortal though suggests that he may have been looking for some other answer than death, and he was most assuredly tricked into ridding the Circle Members, the trick started the moment he was assassinated so Morty could offer to raise him up. Ariel continued the deception with neglecting to tell important facts, she did not have to tell him about him being Balance Guardian, but there were many things she could have told him, such as the Oracle being Moebius, she knew, she did not tell, he could have lopped Moebius' head quite quickly, saved the world from much pain. Ariel is as much an instrument in setting Kain up with his terrible decision as Moebius, Hash, and the others were.

Explain to me how "no one knows", and yet you are so sure that I'm "all wrong"? That's a bit hypocritical. Either way, we know that Guardians get their powers from whatever their link with the Pillar is. And since each Pillar was originally meant to protect Nosgoth, the Pillar of Conflict would likely have to prevent CONFLICTS from erupting into war. Malek thus retreats to his Bastion instead of preventing the wars (the Nemesis).
WTF? Did you just go off on a tangent? Yes, yes you did. I said the one with Morty is wrong, and it is, Morty holds sway over death, his ressurecting people does not automatically make him misuse his power. Morty has done more than that, or else his binding Malek to his armor would have been misuse because he made it so Malek's soul can never go to the underworld.

As for Malek: Prevent conflict? HA! Have you even seen what Malek does? He spreads as much conflict as he prevents, or do you not remember inumerable deaths of vampires and humans in his 'righteous' quest to rid Nosgoth of its Evils? Malek does about anything but 'prevent' conflict.

Anyone who doesnt know the cause of the Corruption shouldn't be in this discussion. Nupraptor's insanity is explained already, and its not a hatred. It's grief for Ariel's death and a SUSPICION that it was other Circle Members who murdered her. Their madness shapes out to be each member doing the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently their to do (don't say they all attack Nosgoth, because Malek and Mortanius don't, but they ARE insane. That means that Malek's retreat from conflict and Mortanius' resurrecting Kain would have to be the OPPOSITE of what they are meant to do).
Don't even try that pathetic attempt to say I do not know the cause of the Circle's madness. You obviously misunderstood me. I very well know Nupraptor caused the Circles' members to go insane but it was not the simple misuse of the pillars that made them corrupt, it was that the corruption of Nup's mental blast made the Circle members fill with pain and hatred and thus they misused their pillars. They could have used their Pillars like they always did and the Pillars would have been cracked, because the Pillars reflect the mental and physical states of their Guardians, not thier use of.

As for Nup's insanity: Kain: Nupraptor, with his blind act of vengeance threatened to destroy all of Nosgoth.
Ariel: My murder at the hands of this beast drove my love Nupraptor mad. Now he spreads misery and pain among the Circle, crumbling the very foundation of Nosgoth.
Nupraptor: Come, Kain . . . come share my pain . . Kain: She spoke of his self-mutilation, sewing his eyes and lips shut to deny the outside world. Fueled by despair and hopelessness, he turned his magic on the Circle, infecting their minds with his madness.

So, let us see, no, it is not suspicion. It is Pain, Misery, Suffering and Hatred, something Nupraptor felt at the death of Ariel and something he spread to all others. Paranoia may be included, but, let's face it, Paranoia is not going to suddenly make someone do the opposite of what they are meant to. Hatred, Pain, Misery, and the want to spread it sure will though.

I just said that. Look at it like this: if you punch a guy because he ran and bumped into you, and later found out that he was running from a bank robbery, you DIDN'T punch him to stop a burgler, you PUNCHED HIM because he BUMPED INTO YOU. Kain finds out LATER that what he did was good. At the TIME, however, he is doing it for HIMSELF. Just because it becomes the RIGHT decision doesn't make it the HONEST one. Also, his upbringing as a Coorhagen noble has no bearing on his insanity. He just grows up with the times, and makes bids for power. It's his MADNESS that causes him to place this above the welfare of the world and to not care of his fellow man.

No, actually you did not just say what I said. I said that despite everything he was still serving the balance unwittingly despite wanting to be selfish. You just said it was coincidence. There is a difference. You say that even though it turns out right it is coincidence and ok, I say the Pillar is still making him serve the Balance in the only way it can to eventually right itself. Difference is that one leaves Free Will completely in Kain's hands (your version) and the other means Destiny is still using Kain as a pawn (my version).

As for Coorhagen: Should I find the quotes of Coorhagen again? You think that was a place where he would have cared about his fellow man? Let me do that.

Kain: Coorhagen - my home - the finest city in all of Nosgoth, rich in vanity and conceit. I had no delusions as to the welcome I would receive.
Kain: Ottmar slumped on his throne like a rag doll, his beard matted with the tears of his own self-pity. In my court, he would have long since been usurped by one stronger, but in Willendorf they worshipped him, even in his weakness.
And let us not forget the most important thing: Kain: Vae Victus - suffering to the conquered. Ironic that now I was the one suffering.
Then there is numerous quotes I can show where Kain literally revels in the act of killing and bloodshed.

With Paranoia, wait, no, you said Suspicion, a much weaker form of Paranoia, anways, with Suspicion Kain would not revel in Carnage and he would not place himself about the world, after all, Suspicion may cause him to work harder to protect the world suspecting just about all things of working against balance. Hatred, Misery, and the spreading of it would make a person place themself above all others. And, in case you cannot tell, Coorhagen, from the sounds of it, is the perfect court to raise a person who is quite insane into a model that can survive in the world, because if they cannot survive in a court where it is dog eat dog they will get replaced.

And? The Pillars are DESTROYED. Besides, quite possibly, the power of the Pillar of Balance is to restore the Balance. Perhaps KAIN was the only one who could kill the other Pillars because HE was the Pillar of Balance. Maybe THIS was the power of the Pillar, to shape the Pillars and Nosgoth as needed. Kain abuses this without even knowing, then.
This whole argument does not fly. The Pillars were restored, they were not destroyed until he refused to die. Are you saying that nothing is wrong until he chose? Because, if he is the only one that can restore the Pillars he is still serving Balance as it was meant to be served so by your logic his Pillar should not appear corrupt until he refuses to die. The fact is, if the only way to restore the Balance was by killing the corrupt Guardians then he never abused his the power of the Pillar of Balance until he made his choice to not die. So, Kain actually serves the Pillar, yet more, and does not abuse the power until the very end upon which he makes his act with full knowledge of consequence. Does not sound like he ever placed himself above the balance until the end there, but in fact, it sure sounds like his and the Balance Pillars purposes ran parallel. Now, why would the Pillar be corrupt from the word go, before he can even fully form conscious thought then? Why, could it be because maybe the misuse of the Pillar is nothing but an effect of the wanting to spread Pain throughout the world? Why, yes, yes it could.

Your Pillar argument is faulty. I will explain more in a moment, after addressing this quote by you:
We know that the Pillar of Balance was corrupt because it is CRACKED and BLACK, showing that Kain is also tainted with MADNESS. THAT is the irony, since he does the opposite of what he was meant to do since birth (the opposite of the Pillar's essence, since that apparently is the nature of the Madness). Kain's death would restore the Pillars as far as anyone knew. Kain does not choose to live because he thinks it won't restore Balance; he is quite plain, actually. "Once I embraced my powers I realized that Vorador was correct. We are gods - dark gods - and it is our duty to thin the herd." Thus, as I pointed out, he LIKES being a Vampire now and since he is the STRONGEST being in the world, he decides to keep living.

And, I never said he did not like being a vampire. Misuse of the Pillar would require more than the intent to do the opposite, it would require truly doing the opposite. He can intend to throw the world out of Balance all he wants, but if he actually brings the world into Balance at all then he is not misusing the Pillar and only intending to. Intent has little to with it in your Pillar argument, and that is why you are faulty in it.

You Pillar argument hinges on that they actually do the opposite of what they are meant to to abuse the Pillar and thus be corrupt. This means that until they abuse the Pillars powers the Pillar should not be corrupt. (If you do not think that is what your argument is saying read over it again)

Kain can intend to do whatever he likes, but if he serves the Balance he is not abusing the Pillars power so under your defintion of the insanity it should not be corrupt. Now, if infact he is actually filled with a deep abiding dislike for Nosgoth (which is evidence when he says he cares nothing for Nosgoth to Ariel) then that might be different. The Pillar was corrupt long before it was abused, but you say the insanity makes them do the opposite of what they would do, which does not mean intending to do the opposite, it means the willful abuse of the Pillars power. Kain does that only once, at the end. Up to that point he is serving the Balance, by restoring the Pillar, but the Pillar is still cracked. Why? Because he is Insane you will say, and I will agree, but, sadly that does not go with everything else you have been saying.

Their madness shapes out to be each member doing the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently their to do
"madness shapes out to be each DOING the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently there to do" Intent is not a part of that equation. That means that despite intent they can end up still serving the Pillar faithfully.

The real insanity is that they all give up serving Nosgoth as a whole, more than just the Pillars, and then they cap that off with making Nosgoth suffer. What was the one common theme in all case of Circle members and their abuse of Nosgoth? They brought Pain, Suffering, and Death. Even had they not used the Pillars to do it the Pillars would have cracked. It is not that they were made to use their Pillars in a contrary manner, it was that they came to attack Nosgoth and the Life on Nosgoth. They were no longer the Protectors of Nosgoth, but its attackers. That is opposite, true, but they did not need to abuse the Pillars to be considered so or to have the Pillars crack. The Pillars became a tool, something they used but not something that the misuse of determined they were insane. By your logic if the Pillar is not misused the Guardian is not corrupt. Kain, who up until the end of the game, does not misuse his Pillar, and it is corrupt. Saying he is insane to defend your argument does not work, because your defintion of insanity is doing the opposite of what they were meant to with the Pillar. So Kain's Pillar should not be corrupted, until the end, where no matter his choice he cannot serve Balance, but up until that point he is doing what he is meant to by restoring the Pillars and bringing back Balance.

[BadGuysAlwaysWin]

Nope, you'd have to be a recently resurrected mortal who wanted revenge and now wants to be alive again. Kain probably did want to be alive, if he wanted death he could have at any time. Notice how he does not jump in a lake, or drink some poisoned blood, or any of the multitude of things that can kill him, and quite quickly at that?

I meant that YOU are unfamiliar with vampiric lore. When a Vampire dies, his soul doesn't get the same fate as a normal person; rather, the soul becomes NOTHINGNESS, oblivion. zip. zilch. That person ceases to be. We know Nosgoth is religious, and thus, by release, Kain the just-fallen noble would probably have understood it to be a RELEASE from his vampiric unlife, rather than OBLIVION. All those other things are OBLIVION, not RELEASE.

Kain: Only when all the Pillars were restored, did Ariel claim my curse would end.

He may very well be holding out for a cure even though he was told one does not exist. If all he wants is to die he can at about any moment he so chooses. Ironically even though he is told by Morty that to truly get revenge he needs to go after the Pillar Guardians he does not mention revenge once more, meaning he abandoned it for a cure. Ariel did trick him, she gave him hope telling him that if he killed Nup and the others he would find peace from his torment, yet being Kain it sure does not sound like he equates peace with death now does it?

Once again, this is release. He may have been damned, but he still had an eternity ahead of him (in Hell), and with these actions, it isn't foolish to believe that he might just gain entry into Heaven. The CURSE of a Vampire isn't over when you KILL the Vampire. The CURSE ends when the Vampirism ends and the person returns to the grave.

I am not saying he did not know he would find death as the release, the game happens to breeze over that. The fact that he looks for a cure when he is not truly immortal though suggests that he may have been looking for some other answer than death, and he was most assuredly tricked into ridding the Circle Members, the trick started the moment he was assassinated so Morty could offer to raise him up. Ariel continued the deception with neglecting to tell important facts, she did not have to tell him about him being Balance Guardian, but there were many things she could have told him, such as the Oracle being Moebius, she knew, she did not tell, he could have lopped Moebius' head quite quickly, saved the world from much pain. Ariel is as much an instrument in setting Kain up with his terrible decision as Moebius, Hash, and the others were.

Nosgoth is a world that is rich with Vampire lore, so I am guessing that an educated noble like Kain would know ALL about Vampires. And Mortanius explains to Anacrothe WHY he had Kain killed: to cleanse the Circle. Now, think about it. Kain was killed by A HANDFUL OF REGULAR MERCENARIES as a Human. And as a Vampire, he is able to DESTROY THE CIRCLE OF NINE. Do you think that he would have been able to accomplish this as a Human?? And at the beginning of the quest, do you think that Kain would have been strong enough to tackle Moebius? Trying to use the way the video game is created for playability against a character is rather bland. That's like saying that all RPG villains are stupid because they don't attack the hero with all their might at the beginning of the game.

WTF? Did you just go off on a tangent? Yes, yes you did. I said the one with Morty is wrong, and it is, Morty holds sway over death, his ressurecting people does not automatically make him misuse his power. Morty has done more than that, or else his binding Malek to his armor would have been misuse because he made it so Malek's soul can never go to the underworld.

And which tangent was this? I pointed out your hypocrisy, and went on to explain about Mortanius. His binding Malek's soul is not altering anything. All he does is change Malek's body. Malek was NOT killed at the end of his fight with Vorador. And since Kain was able to enter Hell AGAIN, this means that it IS possible to enter Hell without having to die. So how are you so sure that "Morty has done more than that"? Or that resurrection isn't against the rules of the Pillar of Death? My basis is the fact that all the Guardians DO act opposite of how their Pillar would intend. I am extending this to include Mortanius, the Guardian of Death. Just because you disagree doesn't mean I'm wrong.

As for Malek: Prevent conflict? HA! Have you even seen what Malek does? He spreads as much conflict as he prevents, or do you not remember inumerable deaths of vampires and humans in his 'righteous' quest to rid Nosgoth of its Evils? Malek does about anything but 'prevent' conflict.

First of all, the Circle of Nine CREATED the Sarafan in ORDER for them to wipe out the Vampires. And at the time, Malek was NOT the "Pillar of Conflict". While there is debate on whether his "rebirth" as the bodyless Malek may have been when the Pillar chose him, all we know is that "he came to embody the spirit of the Pillar of Conflict". no "inumerable [sp] humans" died in his quest. And notice that AFTER he became Pillar of Guardian, there WERE no wars. The Circle wanted the Vampires gone. This wasn't a "conflict" that they had to appease, but a "genocide" that they created. These are two completely different terms (as an Armenian, I know this well).

Don't even try that pathetic attempt to say I do not know the cause of the Circle's madness. You obviously misunderstood me. I very well know Nupraptor caused the Circles' members to go insane but it was not the simple misuse of the pillars that made them corrupt, it was that the corruption of Nup's mental blast made the Circle members fill with pain and hatred and thus they misused their pillars. They could have used their Pillars like they always did and the Pillars would have been cracked, because the Pillars reflect the mental and physical states of their Guardians, not thier use of.

Apparently you didn't understand ME. I never said it was the misuse of the Pillars that corrupted the Guardians. I gave an ingame quote about how the Pillars deteriorated with the increasing dementia of the Guardians. No where did I even try to say that it was the misuse of the Pillars that caused the Guardians to go mad.

So, let us see, no, it is not suspicion. It is Pain, Misery, Suffering and Hatred, something Nupraptor felt at the death of Ariel and something he spread to all others. Paranoia may be included, but, let's face it, Paranoia is not going to suddenly make someone do the opposite of what they are meant to. Hatred, Pain, Misery, and the want to spread it sure will though.

It's not suspicion? Hmm... As I recall from Kain himself in Soul Reaver 2...

At the moment of my first cry, Ariel's beloved - the Guardian Nupraptor - finds her corpse. Wracked with grief and tormented with suspicions of treachery, Nupraptor plunges into a madness which overflows and infects all of the Guardians, who are symbiotically bound. Including me. The repercussions of Ariel's assassination were expertly calculated... The entire Circle descends into madness, and I am tainted at the moment of my birth - instantly renderedincapable of fulfilling the role destiny has prepared for me.

Did you notice how it says "wracked with grief and tormented with suspicions of treachery"?

No, actually you did not just say what I said. I said that despite everything he was still serving the balance unwittingly despite wanting to be selfish. You just said it was coincidence. There is a difference. You say that even though it turns out right it is coincidence and ok, I say the Pillar is still making him serve the Balance in the only way it can to eventually right itself. Difference is that one leaves Free Will completely in Kain's hands (your version) and the other means Destiny is still using Kain as a pawn (my version).

Well, since there is absolutely nothing in the game that ever supports the idea that the Pillar FORCES its will on the Balance Guardian even despite Nupraptor's Insanity, I'll just leave you to keep on thinking your version.

Then there is numerous quotes I can show where Kain literally revels in the act of killing and bloodshed.

With Paranoia, wait, no, you said Suspicion, a much weaker form of Paranoia, anways, with Suspicion Kain would not revel in Carnage and he would not place himself about the world, after all, Suspicion may cause him to work harder to protect the world suspecting just about all things of working against balance. Hatred, Misery, and the spreading of it would make a person place themself above all others. And, in case you cannot tell, Coorhagen, from the sounds of it, is the perfect court to raise a person who is quite insane into a model that can survive in the world, because if they cannot survive in a court where it is dog eat dog they will get replaced.

Good for you, so can I. The Protectors of Hope are destroying the world, King William the Just is murdering thousands as the Nemesis, plague runs rampant across the land, thieves and brigands infest the countryside, Ottmar the Lion of Willendorf grieves in his city, and you expect Kain to have been raised any differently with or without Coorhagen or his madness? You need to do a little research into middle-ages nobility. They were ALL soldiers, and the very IDEA of the Knight was seeking out your opponent in glorious combat. Kain was a Knight as well (as his armor matches those of the Knights of Willendorf). You should also check up on warlords and conquerors of those times, and see which ones tried to AVOID bloodshed. I, for one, can name at least a dozen ancient warlords who reveled in death and came up with quite creative methods of murder. And we are talking about Nupraptor's suspicion, which causes him to go mad, which causes the rest of the Guardians to also go mad. Get it now?

This whole argument does not fly. The Pillars were restored, they were not destroyed until he refused to die. Are you saying that nothing is wrong until he chose? Because, if he is the only one that can restore the Pillars he is still serving Balance as it was meant to be served so by your logic his Pillar should not appear corrupt until he refuses to die. The fact is, if the only way to restore the Balance was by killing the corrupt Guardians then he never abused his the power of the Pillar of Balance until he made his choice to not die. So, Kain actually serves the Pillar, yet more, and does not abuse the power until the very end upon which he makes his act with full knowledge of consequence. Does not sound like he ever placed himself above the balance until the end there, but in fact, it sure sounds like his and the Balance Pillars purposes ran parallel. Now, why would the Pillar be corrupt from the word go, before he can even fully form conscious thought then? Why, could it be because maybe the misuse of the Pillar is nothing but an effect of the wanting to spread Pain throughout the world? Why, yes, yes it could.

I explained before, this time I'll put it in bold and underline it for you. KAIN IS SELFISH, YET THIS SELFISHNESS OFTEN COINCIDES WITH WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, WHETHER BY COINCIDENCE OR BY DESIGN OF PEOPLE SUCH AS MORTANIUS. The corruption of the Pillar of Balance was because Kain was driven insane at birth, or as KAIN HIMSELF says,

The entire Circle descends into madness, and I am tainted at the moment of my birth - instantly rendered incapable of fulfilling the role destiny has prepared for me.

The role he was to play was sacrificing himself for the Balance. He was INCAPABLE of this because he was selfish, which was caused by his madness. You can cry "Coorhagen" all you want, but remember that Hash'ak'gik had expertly calculated the effects. Driving the Circle mad would destroy the protection of Nosgoth, and thus Coorhagen would descend into a den of dogs just as Kain was being raised. It STILL goes back to the betrayal of the Circle.

And, I never said he did not like being a vampire. Misuse of the Pillar would require more than the intent to do the opposite, it would require truly doing the opposite. He can intend to throw the world out of Balance all he wants, but if he actually brings the world into Balance at all then he is not misusing the Pillar and only intending to. Intent has little to with it in your Pillar argument, and that is why you are faulty in it.

And you are the expert on how the Pillars works, even though that hasn't been revealed yet? I never speak of intent or action. I say that the Pillars are corrupted when the members are driven MAD. Anything after that is simply a RESULT of said madness. Kain can intend to dress up like a woman for all the Pillar of Balance, cares, because he is still mad and that is the reason for the Pillar's corruption.

You Pillar argument hinges on that they actually do the opposite of what they are meant to to abuse the Pillar and thus be corrupt. This means that until they abuse the Pillars powers the Pillar should not be corrupt. (If you do not think that is what your argument is saying read over it again)

Thanks for explaining to me what my argument is. And since I have repeatedly said that THE GUARDIANS ARE CORRUPT BECAUSE NUPRAPTOR MADE THEM ALL INSANE I really don't know where you're getting this whole intent/cause thing from. What they do AFTER they are insane is because they ARE insane. So... what are you talking about?

Kain can intend to do whatever he likes, but if he serves the Balance he is not abusing the Pillars power so under your defintion of the insanity it should not be corrupt. Now, if infact he is actually filled with a deep abiding dislike for Nosgoth (which is evidence when he says he cares nothing for Nosgoth to Ariel) then that might be different. The Pillar was corrupt long before it was abused, but you say the insanity makes them do the opposite of what they would do, which does not mean intending to do the opposite, it means the willful abuse of the Pillars power. Kain does that only once, at the end. Up to that point he is serving the Balance, by restoring the Pillar, but the Pillar is still cracked. Why? Because he is Insane you will say, and I will agree, but, sadly that does not go with everything else you have been saying.

Buddy, you have to quit trying to tell ME what I'm saying as a basis for YOUR arguments. ONCE AGAIN, THE GUARDIANS ARE CORRUPT BECAUSE NUPRAPTOR MADE THEM ALL INSANE. They aren't corrupt because they INTEND to do evil or that they actually DO evil, it's because they are INSANE and thus can't HELP it. The Pillars wouldn't choose evil people or insane people. Kain is already BORN and CHOSEN when he goes insane. The rest are already there. As I never ever talked about how their ACTIONS cause the Pillars to crack, I will again ignore the rest of this paragraph.

"madness shapes out to be each DOING the OPPOSITE of what they are apparently there to do" Intent is not a part of that equation. That means that despite intent they can end up still serving the Pillar faithfully.

I'm seeing a pattern here... ugh... Read my paragraph above.

The real insanity is that they all give up serving Nosgoth as a whole, more than just the Pillars, and then they cap that off with making Nosgoth suffer. What was the one common theme in all case of Circle members and their abuse of Nosgoth? They brought Pain, Suffering, and Death. Even had they not used the Pillars to do it the Pillars would have cracked. It is not that they were made to use their Pillars in a contrary manner, it was that they came to attack Nosgoth and the Life on Nosgoth. They were no longer the Protectors of Nosgoth, but its attackers. That is opposite, true, but they did not need to abuse the Pillars to be considered so or to have the Pillars crack. The Pillars became a tool, something they used but not something that the misuse of determined they were insane. By your logic if the Pillar is not misused the Guardian is not corrupt. Kain, who up until the end of the game, does not misuse his Pillar, and it is corrupt. Saying he is insane to defend your argument does not work, because your defintion of insanity is doing the opposite of what they were meant to with the Pillar. So Kain's Pillar should not be corrupted, until the end, where no matter his choice he cannot serve Balance, but up until that point he is doing what he is meant to by restoring the Pillars and bringing back Balance.

OK... As the Protectors of Hope, their duty was to guard the land, ensure peace, and protect hope. Now, what would the opposite of this be? That's right... Attack the land, cause strife, and destroy hope. Which is why they are now called the Destroyers of Hope. Each Guardian INDIVIDUALLY accomplishes this in different ways, and each way is the OPPOSITE of what the Pillar would intend. Bane twists nature instead of guarding it. Malek allows conflict instead of stopping it. Mortanius raises the dead instead of keeping them. Nupraptor causes insanity instead of healing it. And Kain damns the world instead of saving it. See the pattern there? They ALL cause grief because that is the OPPOSITE of what the Pillars are MEANT to do. But each does it in their own way, which is the OPPOSITE of what their individual Pillars would intend. And the definition of normal insanity isn't just doing the opposite of what a person would want, but from their ACTIONS, we can HYPOTHESIZE that the EFFECT of the insanity is doing the opposite of what the Pillars would want. Kain's Pillar is cracked because he IS insane. The entire game, his own desires coincide with what the Pillar needs done, but he doesn't DO IT for the Pillars. We know that because at the end, when his desires and that of the Pillar differ, he chooses himself. THAT is why the Pillar was corrupt, because he was insane. What you do when you are insane doesn't effect the Pillars anymore because you already ARE insane and they already ARE corrupt. They don't get MORE corrupt. They already ARE corrupt.

[Non-existent]

I meant that YOU are unfamiliar with vampiric lore. When a Vampire dies, his soul doesn't get the same fate as a normal person; rather, the soul becomes NOTHINGNESS, oblivion. zip. zilch. That person ceases to be. We know Nosgoth is religious, and thus, by release, Kain the just-fallen noble would probably have understood it to be a RELEASE from his vampiric unlife, rather than OBLIVION. All those other things are OBLIVION, not RELEASE.
Again you attempt to insult me. Please refrain. As you yourself addressed, I was expressing a possible view of Kain's knowledge of vampires, which may cause him to hope for something besides death. It is very easy for you to say I am not familiar with Vampire Lore when you have not even found out what I actually know. I am very familiar with Vampire Lore.

Apparently you are not. The term Oblivion must be replace with Damnation. Oblivion is not the same. Oh, but wait:
Once again, this is release. He may have been damned, but he still had an eternity ahead of him (in Hell), and with these actions, it isn't foolish to believe that he might just gain entry into Heaven. The CURSE of a Vampire isn't over when you KILL the Vampire. The CURSE ends when the Vampirism ends and the person returns to the grave.
Oh, I see, either you are referring to Hell like it was/is (I am not quite familiar with the current belief) for the Hebrews as an empty Abyss where you are locked for an eternity away from God, or you are being contradictory. And the curse does sometimes end on death, depends on the author and how Biblical they get.

We can tell Kain does not care about Hell, because he actually says, “I didn’t care if I was in Heaven or Hell - all I wanted was to kill my assassins.” Sure does not seem to care there.

Nosgoth is a world that is rich with Vampire lore, so I am guessing that an educated noble like Kain would know ALL about Vampires. And Mortanius explains to Anacrothe WHY he had Kain killed: to cleanse the Circle. Now, think about it. Kain was killed by A HANDFUL OF REGULAR MERCENARIES as a Human. And as a Vampire, he is able to DESTROY THE CIRCLE OF NINE. Do you think that he would have been able to accomplish this as a Human?? And at the beginning of the quest, do you think that Kain would have been strong enough to tackle Moebius? Trying to use the way the video game is created for playability against a character is rather bland. That's like saying that all RPG villains are stupid because they don't attack the hero with all their might at the beginning of the game.

You are guessing Kain was versed in vampire lore, you mean the same lore written by the Circle and the Serafan? And to suggest that Kain would “know ALL about vampires”. Kain actually seems like the person who would know the most popular tales, like Janos Audron, and the weaknesses of a Vampire. The damnation thing, well, he already stated that all he cared about was revenge, not Hell, not Heaven.

As for taking Moeb. Yes, he could have. You do not think so? Why not? He just took on Malek and lived in a head to head battle. Moeb is not the fighter Malek is. Moeb is a cowardly little man who runs away every chance he gets after tricking people. Notice how Kain killed Moeb with extreme ease once he cornered him? If he had gone after him in the Oracle cave two probable things would have happened: 1.) Kain would have lopped off Moeb’s head. 2.) Moeb woulda run and Kain would have possibly had to face Malek again.

As for finding Vorador, before you bring it up, Ariel would have know about him as well, no way she could not have known, her predecessor was killed by Vorador after all, and she knew why Malek was damned.

And which tangent was this? I pointed out your hypocrisy, and went on to explain about Mortanius. His binding Malek's soul is not altering anything. All he does is change Malek's body. Malek was NOT killed at the end of his fight with Vorador. And since Kain was able to enter Hell AGAIN, this means that it IS possible to enter Hell without having to die. So how are you so sure that "Morty has done more than that"? Or that resurrection isn't against the rules of the Pillar of Death? My basis is the fact that all the Guardians DO act opposite of how their Pillar would intend. I am extending this to include Mortanius, the Guardian of Death. Just because you disagree doesn't mean I'm wrong.
The tangent was that you went on talking about Malek when I talked of Morty. You went on to say I was wrong about Malek in great detail. I talked of Morty, you talked of Malek, that is a tangent.

As for Hypocrisy, let me explain why you are the hypocrite in this situation, you may find it amusing.

Morty killed Kain, resurrected him, and you say that is against the Pillar. Morty killed Malek, resurrects him, and you say it is fine. Both are the exact same thing. Morty kills Malek’s mortal shell, which is what death is, and places the soul in a shell that makes him immortal. He does the same thing to Kain, but uses Kain’s old mortal shell instead of a suit of armor.

That is hypocritical to say that Kain’s murder and having his soul returned from death is different from Malek’s. Both of them had to die to have their souls returned to bodies. Morty was not acting against his Pillar 500 years ago with Malek? Did the rules mysteriously change?

First of all, the Circle of Nine CREATED the Sarafan in ORDER for them to wipe out the Vampires. And at the time, Malek was NOT the "Pillar of Conflict". While there is debate on whether his "rebirth" as the bodyless Malek may have been when the Pillar chose him, all we know is that "he came to embody the spirit of the Pillar of Conflict". no "inumerable [sp] humans" died in his quest. And notice that AFTER he became Pillar of Guardian, there WERE no wars. The Circle wanted the Vampires gone. This wasn't a "conflict" that they had to appease, but a "genocide" that they created. These are two completely different terms (as an Armenian, I know this well).

I will have to defer to warpsavant here. In his interview with Ms. Hennig she answered this.

Now, I tentatively say that Malek was born the Guardian and remained one, because I believe she confirmed that the three remaining Guardians were Malek, Morty, and Moeb, which would leave six dead at Vorador’s hands.

As for Innumerable humans, let me quote SK’s site: “In "life"(picture left), Malek was known as a ruthless and cold blooded murderer by enemy generals and, particularly, by the vampires.” Now, please, explain to me how humans who are enemy generals and not vampires would not think him a cold blooded killer unless he killed many humans in Cold Blood?

Apparently you didn't understand ME. I never said it was the misuse of the Pillars that corrupted the Guardians. I gave an ingame quote about how the Pillars deteriorated with the increasing dementia of the Guardians. No where did I even try to say that it was the misuse of the Pillars that caused the Guardians to go mad.
I did misunderstand you, because your argument sounded like this: The Pillars are corrupt because they are misused. The clarification is appreciated.

It's not suspicion? Hmm... As I recall from Kain himself in Soul Reaver 2...
Kain: At the moment of my first cry, Ariel's beloved - the Guardian Nupraptor - finds her corpse. Wracked with grief and tormented with suspicions of treachery, Nupraptor plunges into a madness which overflows and infects all of the Guardians, who are symbiotically bound. Including me. The repercussions of Ariel's assassination were expertly calculated... The entire Circle descends into madness, and I am tainted at the moment of my birth - instantly renderedincapable of fulfilling the role destiny has prepared for me.
Did you notice how it says "wracked with grief and tormented with suspicions of treachery"?
Did you notice where it says, “Nupraptor plunges into a madness which overflows and infects all of the Guardians.”??? It does not say that Nupraptor plunged into Suspicion and grief and spread it to the rest of the circle. It says he went from Grief and Suspicion of Treachery to Madness. There is a difference.

I never said Suspicion and Grief are not part of the madness, but I am saying that are only a part, and small at that, you insist they are the whole madness:
BadGuysAlwaysWin 7-23-2002: . Nupraptor's insanity is explained already, and its not a hatred. It's grief for Ariel's death and a SUSPICION that it was other Circle Members who murdered her.

Now, Nupraptor does hate, everything, if he did not he would not have sewn his eyes shut and started killing innocent people to spread pain. Or as he says to Kain: Nupraptor: Come, Kain . . . come share my pain . . .
No, I think Nup wants to make everyone else feel whatever pain he can, thus he tortures the people who went on a pilgrimage to his keep, and spread a madness through the Circle which caused them to all attack Nosgoth over protecting.

Well, since there is absolutely nothing in the game that ever supports the idea that the Pillar FORCES its will on the Balance Guardian even despite Nupraptor's Insanity, I'll just leave you to keep on thinking your version.

I will admit, Forces is to strong a word, which is why I did not use it. To say more properly would be influence the Guardian. I did say “Making him serve Balance” which is too strong as well, but happens when you type fast. I also said destiny and serving Balance (not the Pillar, Balance). More properly if anything is forcing Kain it is destiny/history.

Good for you, so can I. The Protectors of Hope are destroying the world, King William the Just is murdering thousands as the Nemesis, plague runs rampant across the land, thieves and brigands infest the countryside, Ottmar the Lion of Willendorf grieves in his city, and you expect Kain to have been raised any differently with or without Coorhagen or his madness? You need to do a little research into middle-ages nobility. They were ALL soldiers, and the very IDEA of the Knight was seeking out your opponent in glorious combat. Kain was a Knight as well (as his armor matches those of the Knights of Willendorf). You should also check up on warlords and conquerors of those times, and see which ones tried to AVOID bloodshed. I, for one, can name at least a dozen ancient warlords who reveled in death and came up with quite creative methods of murder. And we are talking about Nupraptor's suspicion, which causes him to go mad, which causes the rest of the Guardians to also go mad. Get it now?

Again, you insult me. When did we happen to be discussing Medieval Europe? It is very easy to claim I am ignorant on the subject when I was discussing what appears to be the fundamental philosophical belief of Coorhagen that might benefit Kain in his madness when you suddenly say, "Ah ha! Middle Ages, you must do research!!!!" We were not talking of the Middle Ages, last I looked I did not sit there and give a breakdown of possible/probable feifdoms and the vassalage the King required. Coorhagen appears to be very RealPolitik/egoistical, kinda sounds alot like Kain. What if Kain was raised in Willendorf where it appears that Idealism is the word of the day? He might grow up with alot of internal conflicts, and who knows how that would change things.

I know a lot about the Medieval world that was once Europe. Nosgoth is not Medieval Europe. Nosgoth is possibly a world with a Feudal System that happens to have some trappings that resemble Europe in its Middle/Dark Ages. There is no evidence that Nosgoth runs on the same foundations. There were many Feudal Systems which consisted of Kings, Nobles, and Peasants. Japan was Feudal for over a thousand years, China was Feudal, etc. Nosgoth could be said to actually more resemble a Renaissance world, where nobility still exists but they are not the sole source of military might, and the merchant and middle classes begin to have some influence. Or Nosgoth could be a fusion, accepting the vassalage system but not having lands operated by serfs.

(And just because Kain's armor matches the knights of Willendorf's it does not mean he was a knight. Coorhagen's location is known, their general philosophy is known from what little Kain says, but their standard soldiering attire is not. Whether or not Kain had any similarities beyond the armor, which he may have requested by rider, to Willendorf's soldiers is unknown, though we do know he held disgust for King Ottmar and the People who still revered him)

They were ALL soldiers, and the very IDEA of the Knight was seeking out your opponent in glorious combat. Kain was a Knight as well
No Knight in History who went out to face “Glorious Combat” had a Motto like “Vae Victus”. Remember Chivalry? Killing innocents and such was kinda looked down upon. Kain, from the word go, happens to talk about how he would like to kill people and dance in the streets as they burned (well, not so much, he talks wistfully of screams, laughs at killing helpless victims, revels in killing his killers, etc). A ‘Knight of the Middle Ages’ would not think that the death of innocents was a glorious thing, not even if they (the Chivalrous Knight) were changed to a vampire. Glorious Combat against the opponent did not involve the deaths of innocents (except when battling heathens/pagans, then they were guilty by default, vampires would be heathens/pagans in this case), it involved the deaths of fellow soldiers/knights. Whether or not Kain was a knight... unknown, he had armor, he had a sword, he was also travelling, he may not have been a knight who was part of an army, it is never stated if he was a knight, only that he was a noble, if Nosgoth is not based upon a Feudal System then he chances are good he is a trained fighter who is not a knight.

Nosgoth is not the Middle Ages. It is Nosgoth. It presumably has a Feudal System (just because it has nobles and kings does not make it Feudal like the Middle Ages) It has some similarities in design to Europe in the Middle and the later Renaissance period. It does not mean that everyone had a system of honor, or Chivalry, and Coorhagen sure sounds like that kinda place. Coorhagen sounds like what France was/became, a place of opulence where the Ruling Class were gods and everyone else was to be starved at a whim. Willendorf sounds like an Arthurian England, where nobility and Chivalry exist. The Nemesis and his army are the Vikings, pillaging and Killing all they can. Of course, that is the closest real life parallel to be drawn, for the Nemesis’ army is much worse, Coorhagen happens to have the motto of Vae Victus suggesting that life matters little beyond their own desires, and Willendorf did not have Excalibur. And whether they can be said to have any similarities to the Middle Ages beyond appearance is unknown.

And we are talking about Nupraptor's suspicion, which causes him to go mad, which causes the rest of the Guardians to also go mad. Get it now?
We are? I thought we were talking about Nietzsche’s theory of the Super Man and the Mediocrity of the Church. [/sarcasm]

I was connecting the idea that in some environments what would be considered a undesirable trait becomes an encouraged asset. If Coorhagen encourages ruthlessness then Kain, filled with a madness that makes him a sociopath, would no doubt find his lack of guilt over the fate of the conquered better than an empathy that causes him to dislike the notion of “Vae Victus”. Now, in such a place Kain might happen to be slightly more sane looking than the other Guardians who did not have the benefit of being raised in their madness. Is this significant? Yes, a Sociopath will gladly choose their life over everyone else’s and a sociopath will gladly use “Vae Victus” as their slogan and laugh when killing helpless chained up victims. (Note: I am using sociopath in the term as someone without conscience, unable to empathize with other people or feel guilt over, say, killing someone, instead they will feel sorry they are facing consequence and got caught, and not care about the actual person or their family, friends, etc)

What if Kain was a peasant in a small town? Might have become a brigand of narrow vision and cruelty. What if Kain was raised in Willendorf under King Ottmar and his court? Well, he probably would have been very confused and had an upbringing that conflicts with his instincts, which would do who knows what.

So, yes, this does have relevance to Nupraptor’s Madness.

I explained before, this time I'll put it in bold and underline it for you. KAIN IS SELFISH, YET THIS SELFISHNESS OFTEN COINCIDES WITH WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, WHETHER BY COINCIDENCE OR BY DESIGN OF PEOPLE SUCH AS MORTANIUS. The corruption of the Pillar of Balance was because Kain was driven insane at birth, or as KAIN HIMSELF says,… The role he was to play was sacrificing himself for the Balance. He was INCAPABLE of this because he was selfish, which was caused by his madness. You can cry "Coorhagen" all you want, but remember that Hash'ak'gik had expertly calculated the effects. Driving the Circle mad would destroy the protection of Nosgoth, and thus Coorhagen would descend into a den of dogs just as Kain was being raised. It STILL goes back to the betrayal of the Circle.
When did I say Kain was not selfish? When did I say he would not choose out of feeling for himself? Your argument is one of Justification. I am not Justifying what he did, I am saying that there are circumstances beyond his control that influence him. Why would Kain willingly damn the world? Coorhagen is accurate, he thinks himself above it, he is a vain noble raised in a court where power is key. Destiny is the answer, even if he wants to rid himself of his ‘curse’ he may feel a compulsion that sways him towards a decision.

And no, I never said Coorhagen become a den of dogs because of Hash. My guess is like Willendorf Coorhagen has a tradition of being the way it is. Willendorf, considering its extensive library and buildings, would be safe to say it existed before Ottmar and had a line of Just Kings. Coorhagen, unknown, but safe to say it did not start at the time Kain was born.

Now, I am suggesting that maybe because the way Kain was raised that, while incapable of fulfilling his role as the Balance Guardian, does not make him incapable of fulfilling a role for Balance itself. Such compulsions, combined with his madness which makes him think of himself above others, would make the choice to preserve his life and eventually right the Balance much easier than ‘release’.

And you are the expert on how the Pillars works, even though that hasn't been revealed yet? I never speak of intent or action. I say that the Pillars are corrupted when the members are driven MAD. Anything after that is simply a RESULT of said madness. Kain can intend to dress up like a woman for all the Pillar of Balance, cares, because he is still mad and that is the reason for the Pillar's corruption.
Like I said before, I had confusion over your argument, you happen to stress the Opposite of how the Pillars should be used so much that I thought you were saying: Pillars are corrupt because they are misused.

Also, dare not say that against me. You claim the Pillars are being misused, but how do you know? By the very example of Malek and his death and you qualifying that as different from Kain’s shows you either do not know or are being a hypocrite. We are both bound in ignorance in this matter. You do not know if Malek is actually doing the opposite of what he is supposed to be doing. You do not know if Morty is. You do not know if any of them are. All we do know is that they are not protecting Nosgoth, but harming it, but whether they are misusing the Pillars to do so… unknown. It may be perfectly fine for Bane to warp creatures into new breeds, we do not know. Because, again, it is not misuse you stress, but opposite use than what is intended. So, by that logic, if resurrection is the opposite of what Morty should do then obviously the correct thing is he should go out and kill, kill, kill.

As for Malek, we do not know how long he has been in his bastion. That he has a bastion suggests more than 30 years. That he is binding the dead souls of warriors to suits of armor so they may continue to fight does not seem to suggest he abandoned conflict. It is known, from the SK site, that Malek continued purges for hundreds of years, how long those hundred, as in less than 500, more, is unknown. (Of course, if we are to believe the SK site that says 5000 than obviously he has been locked away awhile)

To tell me I do not know how the Pillars work so I am invalidated while you then claim to know how the Pillars are used oppositely when you have no clue how they are meant/do-work either is Hypocrisy as well.

Thanks for explaining to me what my argument is. And since I have repeatedly said that THE GUARDIANS ARE CORRUPT BECAUSE NUPRAPTOR MADE THEM ALL INSANE I really don't know where you're getting this whole intent/cause thing from. What they do AFTER they are insane is because they ARE insane. So... what are you talking about?
Like I said, I thought your argument was not that. You have been stressing “Opposite of what the Pillars are intended to do” in all other posts. So, I happen to construe that as, if the Pillars are used opposite how they are meant to then the Pillars are corrupted whether or not Nupraptor made the Guardians insane. And, since, like you said before: And you are the expert on how the Pillars works, even though that hasn't been revealed yet?
Are you the expert? Is this how you know they are using the Pillars in a fashion that is Opposite how the Pillars are meant to be used?

Buddy, you have to quit trying to tell ME what I'm saying as a basis for YOUR arguments. ONCE AGAIN, THE GUARDIANS ARE CORRUPT BECAUSE NUPRAPTOR MADE THEM ALL INSANE. They aren't corrupt because they INTEND to do evil or that they actually DO evil, it's because they are INSANE and thus can't HELP it. The Pillars wouldn't choose evil people or insane people. Kain is already BORN and CHOSEN when he goes insane. The rest are already there. As I never ever talked about how their ACTIONS cause the Pillars to crack, I will again ignore the rest of this paragraph.

Already explained. Intent does come in the picture when the argument is understood to be the Opposite of what the intended purpose of the Pillars are.
OK... As the Protectors of Hope, their duty was to guard the land, ensure peace, and protect hope. Now, what would the opposite of this be? That's right... Attack the land, cause strife, and destroy hope. Which is why they are now called the Destroyers of Hope. Each Guardian INDIVIDUALLY accomplishes this in different ways, and each way is the OPPOSITE of what the Pillar would intend. Bane twists nature instead of guarding it. Malek allows conflict instead of stopping it. Mortanius raises the dead instead of keeping them. Nupraptor causes insanity instead of healing it. And Kain damns the world instead of saving it. See the pattern there? They ALL cause grief because that is the OPPOSITE of what the Pillars are MEANT to do. But each does it in their own way, which is the OPPOSITE of what their individual Pillars would intend. And the definition of normal insanity isn't just doing the opposite of what a person would want, but from their ACTIONS, we can HYPOTHESIZE that the EFFECT of the insanity is doing the opposite of what the Pillars would want. Kain's Pillar is cracked because he IS insane. The entire game, his own desires coincide with what the Pillar needs done, but he doesn't DO IT for the Pillars. We know that because at the end, when his desires and that of the Pillar differ, he chooses himself. THAT is why the Pillar was corrupt, because he was insane. What you do when you are insane doesn't effect the Pillars anymore because you already ARE insane and they already ARE corrupt. They don't get MORE corrupt. They already ARE corrupt.
God, here you go again, quit saying Opposite, this is where the confusion sprang. Of course, now you are just saying what I have been saying about them being insane and going after Nosgoth, we are not in direct contention there. For the longest time you did not mention the destruction they caused to Nosgoth, you mentioned how they are using the Pillars (which according to you I am not the expert on, but I must assume you are apparently) Opposite to their Intended Purpose.

As for them attacking the land, ummm, I have been saying that for a long time. In fact, I said: The real insanity is that they all give up serving Nosgoth as a whole, more than just the Pillars, and then they cap that off with making Nosgoth suffer.

Now, that happens to say that they do do something you should agree with, they do the opposite of serving the Pillars, which is making the Pillars serve them (Anacrothe admits this), then they go on to harming Nosgoth.

As for this: Malek allows conflict instead of stopping it. Mortanius raises the dead instead of keeping them. Nupraptor causes insanity instead of healing it.
You do realize that you have flawed this entirely. You have no clue if Nupraptor is supposed to heal the insane. You have no clue if Malek is supposed to prevent conflict. You have already proved yourself a hypocrite by saying that Morty killing Malek’s body then placing his soul in a suit of armor is different than what he did to Kain, when, in fact, they are the same in all but a few minor technicalities, he killed a person and kept their soul from the Afterlife in both cases. It has never been said Nupraptor was a healer, it said he gave advice. Never said Malek prevented conflict, in fact, all he ever did was spread it. Morty’s actions do not agree with what you say.

Oh, as for the insanity, from the SK site, direct from what they said about Nupraptor: He vows vengeance upon Mortanius and the fates that have caused this event, and turns his powerful magic to bear on the other members of the Circle of Nine. All across Nosgoth, the minds of the sensitive and intellectual are blasted by relentless waves of hatred. There is no stopping the assault. When the enchantment ends, the entire Circle is quite insane, some raving like madmen, others maliciously in control of their actions... And now, Nosgoth is at their mercy.

Hatred.

And again, for this: Kain's Pillar is cracked because he IS insane. The entire game, his own desires coincide with what the Pillar needs done, but he doesn't DO IT for the Pillars. We know that because at the end, when his desires and that of the Pillar differ, he chooses himself. THAT is why the Pillar was corrupt, because he was insane.
So, again, you profess to know how the Pillars operate and their desires? Who says the Pillar did not want him to choose life at the end? We do not know. Yes, he is Insane, I have said that many times. I admitted that he selfishly chose himself and that there is no justification. Are you agreeing with me on this point? The Pillar was corrupt because he was insane, no matter what actions he took it would never have mattered because he is insane. He could have given bread to the needy, the Pillar would have been corrupt, he could have served the Balance exactly how he was supposed to until the very end and the Pillar would have still been corrupt. I have said that. I have stressed many times the Pillars are corrupt because the Guardians are insane, I did this in response to what I gathered to be your argument where you stress opposite instead of telling it plainly, like I did. They make Nosgoth suffer, they attempt to corrupt and bring pain to the entire world because Nupraptor infected the entire circle with his madness born out of pain, despair, hatred, and yes, suspicion.

(Now, let us all see if this came out ok because I am writing it on word when the first draft was dumped when I tapped the Backspace when the cursor was not in the box)

Edit: Ok, it worked.
Edited for grammar, placed in some forgotten words.

[Reaper007]

just read the first few posts.

according to dantes inferno the worst place in hell is reserved for those who betray their comrades. kain set all the others, marcus, sebastien, not magnus he just went nuts, to that place, uhma was no different. not only that i believe that kain loved her, just before he killed her he said "U could have been my Queen!"

Reaper007

[Diefalling]

So, I am a theory nut what can I say...here are a few more

Bone reaver
I thought that it was interesting that vorador's blade came from the same stock as the soul reaver, in all probability."The most formidable weapon ever forged by our swordsmiths..." is how janos describes the blood reaver, I figure that the blade that belongs to vorador is also of this stock.

Dark Gifts and Vampire Magic
I am of the opinion that these two things are seperate charateristics, that the magic visibly wielded by Kain, Vorador, and Umah are a disapline seperate from those of the dark gifts. One of the reasons (and I acknoledge that this is a bit silly) is that they seperate them in blood omen options screens. But that aside I really do see them as seperate disaplines, especially considering the nature of most of the other dark gifts. Charm of course is the odd one out, though, I think that it is a dark gift that is simply an anologe to the vampic magic abilities. I think vorador and kain's primary dark gift is the shape changing ability(see the cutscene of malek vs vorador in dark eden to confirm that vorador also has the wolf form). Kain and vorador's gifts kind of make you wonder why they seem to stop physicaly changing over time. I think it may be that the form they are in may be completly of their choosing(see later for a completly different idea about the massive changes in kains sons while kain remains unchanged. I also think the teleport displine is just an advanced form of the sanctuary spell, and not Umah's dark gift. (what was Umah's gift you ask, I have no Idea).

Hylden, Kain, 'evolved forms' and the 6 brothers
here is an odd one. I was thinking about the shape of the drained janos in blood omen 2, and I was trying to think of any other related effects in the game series, and an interesting one came to mind. That would be, look at what the various brothers look like in their so called evolved forms. now start with the youngest, and work your way to the raziel and kain, you might notice a pattern. The most grotesque and similar to devolved Janos are Melchiah and Zephon, and both Rahab and Dumah progress towards appearing more like their original selves. It leads to the question what will they do with Turel? Might he perchance be blue? it seems that the weekest brothers are devolving but the closer they are to kain's gift(and possibly his role as balance guardian, the more they seem protected(and thus why kain is still in his current form). Also what presisly is making the weak brothers devovle(along with their children). So what about raziel? what if, dispite his plunge into the lake of the dead, he continued to evolve, surpassing kain as he said. Is it possible that if a vapire(soul created, not blood gifted) evolves long enough he may become one of the elders. If this is true, once again, what will turel be like(yes I know they had a picture of him at the end of soul reaver, but at the same time...they have changed their minds before now.

What about the guardians
I would like to question whether there are other guardians chosen after kain cut his bloody swath through them in bo1. (interesting thought if the reborn brothers might be some of these(ok its a streach...but go with me). It would mean that raziel might have inherited some of the seats of pillar guardian when he obsorbed their souls. It also might be that he has to do exactly that (obsorb the guardians souls in order to be "savior of Nosgoth, and in one being hold all the souls of pillar guradians[and that being at least a semi-Ancient]. (wouldn't that be an interesting plot for soul reaver 3, eventually go through time and gather each of the guardians soul as kain slays them. I think it would be very interesting to revisit blood omen nosgoth as raziel. Also, I would just love to see the look on mobious' face if he ran directly into uberdemon kain. I would just love to see a confrontation of raziel and mobious, and then from the dark behind mobious you see an arm reach out and tap mobious on the shoulder.<cackles with evil delight>.

Alright only one last thing-
who is with me in wanting to see the return of havoc and malice(the axes) and the wraith armor(see my theorie post on the blood omen 2 list for what I think about that. And of course one final thing, just remeber who was the last person to have his hands on the reaver at the end of soul reaver 2(he breaks it, he gets a replacement, kain is just always more fun with a soul reaver).

[Mordred]

YEAH havoc and malice Rock


Even tho i did like the SR games, i was adisapointed when SR First came out, i was hoping for more BO, BO has cool weapons armor and magic spells, SR felt like Tomb Radier in the LOK setting.

But i still enjoyed them

but i still prefere the Blood omens

And imo Blood omen is still the best even if it is old

[Umah Bloodomen]

Originally posted by Diefalling
So, I am a theory nut what can I say...here are a few more

Bone reaver
I thought that it was interesting that vorador's blade came from the same stock as the soul reaver, in all probability."The most formidable weapon ever forged by our swordsmiths..." is how janos describes the blood reaver, I figure that the blade that belongs to vorador is also of this stock.

Join the club fellow "theory nut" ;) :p
Interesting indeed. I don't find it surprising that he had access to such a weapon though. Janos was his sire afterall and most likely bestowed the ancient weapon onto his child to fend for himself when necessary. It was my impression that the Bone Reaver was a "dead blade", meaning that it wasn't imbued with ancient magical energy. Merely a tool for battle. I wonder if perhaps all of the ancients had these Bone Reavers in the Ancient vs. Hylden war. Another speculation I had was, what if they were created as decoys to deter other beings from discovering the Soul Reaver aka "the key to the Pillars". Warpsavant said something about the Bone Reaver actually being smaller than what the Soul Reaver was. I will ask him to confirm the specifics on that. There hasn't been any indication as to how many of the Bone Reavers were forged either, I have also wondered that. It could help prove my "decoy theory" that I stated above.



Originally posted by Diefalling
Dark Gifts and Vampire Magic
I am of the opinion that these two things are seperate charateristics, that the magic visibly wielded by Kain, Vorador, and Umah are a disapline seperate from those of the dark gifts. One of the reasons (and I acknoledge that this is a bit silly) is that they seperate them in blood omen options screens. But that aside I really do see them as seperate disaplines, especially considering the nature of most of the other dark gifts. Charm of course is the odd one out, though, I think that it is a dark gift that is simply an anologe to the vampic magic abilities. I think vorador and kain's primary dark gift is the shape changing ability(see the cutscene of malek vs vorador in dark eden to confirm that vorador also has the wolf form). Kain and vorador's gifts kind of make you wonder why they seem to stop physicaly changing over time. I think it may be that the form they are in may be completly of their choosing(see later for a completly different idea about the massive changes in kains sons while kain remains unchanged. I also think the teleport displine is just an advanced form of the sanctuary spell, and not Umah's dark gift. (what was Umah's gift you ask, I have no Idea).

I am willing to bet that Dark Gifts are traits which vampires all "grow into" as they age. Vampire magic remains the disciplines. From the dialogue at the beginning of BO2, Umah says that vampires are gifted with Dark Gifts, implying that they don't need to be learned. Now the spells acquired in BO1 would be construed as disciplines, because Kain techincally finds them and learns them. I think the forms would fall under the Dark Gift category, seeing that Mist was a dark gift in BO2 and it was also carried over from BO1. I am not sure what you are trying to get at with the "why they seem to stop changing physically over time" statement. Vorador was a prehistoric human (confirmed by Amy Hennig Director of the Series) he obviously changed physically into the green guy we all know and love. Kain also changed, from the human, to the white vampire to the Kain we see in the SR series. Perhaps they have evolved as much as they are going to evolve and therefore don't appear to change. Both of them have been around a very long time (Vorador is older of course) so this theory could be plausable. I can agree with your theory on the Teleport spell. I speculated once that teleportation can only occur to places the vampire has been to physically. As for Umah's Dark Gift, she didn't have any. She was too young (remember she was basically a fledgling...not more than 200 years old seeing Kain knew nothing of her in the 200 years following BO1 and before he went comatose in the 200 years pre BO2. Remember that BO2 when Kain awakens happens 400 years after BO1). Her Dark Gift was the basic Dark Gift of all vampires. I am sure she could use Mist (seeing she taught Kain to remember) and of course Teleport (which she most likely picked up from her sire, Vorador). Whisper was established as a gift and I am inclined to believe that Fury would've been her only other gift.

Originally posted by Diefalling
Hylden, Kain, 'evolved forms' and the 6 brothers
here is an odd one. I was thinking about the shape of the drained janos in blood omen 2, and I was trying to think of any other related effects in the game series, and an interesting one came to mind. That would be, look at what the various brothers look like in their so called evolved forms. now start with the youngest, and work your way to the raziel and kain, you might notice a pattern. The most grotesque and similar to devolved Janos are Melchiah and Zephon, and both Rahab and Dumah progress towards appearing more like their original selves. It leads to the question what will they do with Turel? Might he perchance be blue? it seems that the weekest brothers are devolving but the closer they are to kain's gift(and possibly his role as balance guardian, the more they seem protected(and thus why kain is still in his current form). Also what presisly is making the weak brothers devovle(along with their children). So what about raziel? what if, dispite his plunge into the lake of the dead, he continued to evolve, surpassing kain as he said. Is it possible that if a vapire(soul created, not blood gifted) evolves long enough he may become one of the elders. If this is true, once again, what will turel be like(yes I know they had a picture of him at the end of soul reaver, but at the same time...they have changed their minds before now.

Of all the brothers, Janos looked more like Turel than any of the ones you suggested. On another note, there has been speculation that Janos assumed the shape of Hash'ak'gik or "The Dark Entity" from BO1. Turel will look a lot like the Turelim Vampires. Actually he will look like Morlock (the Tomb Guardian of SR1. Whom was actually supposed to be Turel in the game but was cut out. See Blincoln's website for more information on this). Kain is a vampire made of necromancy, not through the bite like Vorador. (Meaning he isn't a pureblooded vampire). Janos stated that vampires are no longer born. Vorador stated he was too weak to make more vampires in BO2 and that it was time consuming. Kain somehow found out how to raise vampires by breathing a portion of his own soul into a corpse. (Which is how he raised the Sarafan brethren). I would assume that this would make him weak as well. Raziel got the most amount of the soul (hence why he looked pretty decent) Turel was the second born (hence why he isn't as bad either, more creature-like, but not hideous). Dumah was the third (same deal) Rahab was fourth (getting weirder looking) Zephon was fifth (getting grotesque and immobile) and Melchiah was last (totally screwy looking). It is becoming clearer as the theories arise, that Raziel may have been an Ancient to begin with. (Before he was human...this has yet to be proved though). I doubt (as well as other people doubt) that he will evolve into a "restored" state. Turel will most likely look as he should have in SR1 (similar to Morlock) and I have theorized that we may be able to fight him as both Vampire Turel and Evolved Turel (depending on the time streaming issue).


Originally posted by Diefalling
What about the guardians
I would like to question whether there are other guardians chosen after kain cut his bloody swath through them in bo1. (interesting thought if the reborn brothers might be some of these(ok its a streach...but go with me). It would mean that raziel might have inherited some of the seats of pillar guardian when he obsorbed their souls. It also might be that he has to do exactly that (obsorb the guardians souls in order to be "savior of Nosgoth, and in one being hold all the souls of pillar guradians[and that being at least a semi-Ancient]. (wouldn't that be an interesting plot for soul reaver 3, eventually go through time and gather each of the guardians soul as kain slays them. I think it would be very interesting to revisit blood omen nosgoth as raziel. Also, I would just love to see the look on mobious' face if he ran directly into uberdemon kain. I would just love to see a confrontation of raziel and mobious, and then from the dark behind mobious you see an arm reach out and tap mobious on the shoulder.<cackles with evil delight>.

Because Balance hasn't been restored, a lot of people suggested that the Pillars are prevented from choosing the successor guardians to those slaughtered by Kain in BO1. Raziel appears that he will be succeeding Janos Audron as the Reaver Guardian (The 10th guardian and the "Key" to the Pillars).
He is the savior because he is the "Key" to the "lock" (Pillars) which keeps what was deemed evil and a nuisance (Hylden) out of Nosgoth. If Raziel enters BO1 Nosgoth, it will be to take his place beneath Avernus Cathedral to be discovered by Kain (providing he doesn't end up having to kill him before this or after this - depending on where the time streaming goes).We've already seen a confrontation between Moebius and Raziel (and Moebius was begging like a little baby to be spared...LOL). Granted, it wasn't a fight, but it was definately intimidation. :p

Originally posted by Diefalling
Alright only one last thing-
who is with me in wanting to see the return of havoc and malice(the axes) and the wraith armor(see my theorie post on the blood omen 2 list for what I think about that. And of course one final thing, just remeber who was the last person to have his hands on the reaver at the end of soul reaver 2(he breaks it, he gets a replacement, kain is just always more fun with a soul reaver).

Havok and Malice were great weapons. I enjoyed them thoroughly. I don't forsee them returning however. :(
There were 2 entities with ties to the Soul Reaver at the end of SR2, Raziel was one and Kain was the other...remember the paradox, the Reaver cannot turn on itself. But yes, Kain is definately more fun with the Soul Reaver.

Originally posted by Mordred

Even tho i did like the SR games, i was adisapointed when SR First came out, i was hoping for more BO, BO has cool weapons armor and magic spells, SR felt like Tomb Radier in the LOK setting.

But i still enjoyed them

but i still prefere the Blood omens

And imo Blood omen is still the best even if it is old

BO1 is my favorite, followed by SR2, BO2 and then SR1. SR1 just isn't as pivotal to the storyline anymore. Throw the opening FMV's onto the SR2 disc and you've got a great game. LOL. Besides he didn't even retain anything he gained from SR1 in SR2 other than the ability to shift and the wraith blade. LOL. It's a good game but isn't as intense as the others anymore.

EDIT: Changed alchemy to necromancy to avoid confusion.

[Non-existent]

Umah: Kain is a vampire made of alchemy, not through the bite like Vorador.
I would like to challenge this, as Alchemy seems to broad a term to use. It could be said that Kain changed Alchemically because his structure changed, or because there was some degree of spiritualism involved, but to say simply Alchemy... It would be more proper to say Kain was a vampire made of Necromancy.

Of course, Nosgoth must be taken into account. Anacrothe being the Alchemist, apparently manipulating the physical to change the structure of a thing, seems to require a more narrow definition of what Alchemy is, in that the arts of Sorcery, Necromancy, and even the manipulation of nature does not fall under Anacrothe's influence (though Anacrothe was quite helpful to Bane in creating Dark Eden's inhabitants). Anacrothe's influence seemed to be the more narrow vision of Alchemy as a sort of magic based chemistry.

For those wanting to see more on Alchemy have a look at this informative site (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/index.html).

Their FAQ is beyond unhelpful though. What they basically say when they are asked to define Alchemy is that to avoid invalidation they cannot be defined, ironically this also makes it so they cannot be validated. The site likes to try to connect metaphysical theories between Alchemists of old and Physicists of present day, or try to stress the religious and spiritual aspects to avoid giving a clear answer. Basically the only common thread throughout is the manipulation of physical elements to effect change either spiritually, physically, or psychologically.

Anywho, to get back on point, Kain appears to have been turned into a vampire from Necromancy, which depending on definition of what Alchemy is Necromancy either would or would not be part of it, so for specifics sake, and to avoid possible confusion, better to say Kain was created through Necromancy.

(Yes, I know this was nitpicking, but well, it can be confusing to say Kain is an Alchemical vampire when it was Necromancy that raised him)

[Darakari]

Raziel did keep some of the abilities that he gained in SR1.

The ability to phase thru gates .... from Melchiah.
The ability to climb walls .............. from Zephon.
The ability to swim ....................... from Rahab.

He also kept the force blast that he gained from Morlock, but in a weaker state. The SR2 force blast sucked a long one. There should have been tons more enemies and demons in SR2, and they should have made it so that you could use the force blast from SR1.

They DID take away the "twist" ability that Raziel gained from Dumah, but it was a stupid power anyway. IF it would have had some combat capabilities, then maybe it would have been important enough to keep.

What really blew chunks was the fact that we gained ALL the Glyph Spells, only to find out that they really had no point, and only to lose them in SR2. There should have been magical barriers located throughout the Chronoplast that would keep you from reaching Kain, unless you had the appropriate Glyph Spell to destroy the barrier. Or maybe Turelim that shot force blasts at you while protected by a surrounding barrier that you had to destroy with your Glyph spells.

At least the magic abilities from BO1 were important because they gave you more of an edge when fighting the stronger bosses and enemies.

[Umah Bloodomen]

I made reference to this thread on the Soul Reaver forum (in an semi-unrelated thread) and thought that it could be revived.

Originally posted by Morte
For Umah: I have read parts of your thesis you posted in the other thread and they appear quite interesting, although I disagree on many points. Let me just summarize shortly where our thoughts on her go separate ways:

Reading "parts" of my thesis and expecting me to take your criticism to it seriously is quite insulting to me. You disclosed that you didn't bother to take the time, and I am to assume I am supposed to take the time myself? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Morte
You claim that Umah acted the way she did because she was undisciplined and worried about her reputation, that Kain would steal her position amongst the vampires.
I disagree. I don't believe Umah is someone who would care for such shallow things, no, there was something deeper behind her decision to take the Nexus stone.
I believe she was "brainwashed" to an extent by Vorador, as he did not want for Kain to rule supreme. I also think she was very loyal to the Cabal and wanted for the vampires to prosper, and Kain's relentless ambition and ruthlessness worried her. She believed that what she was doing was for the greater good of the Cabal and vampires of Nosgoth by not allowing Kain to become too powerful. I agree that she loved him, but pushed her feelings aside for what she believed was a greater cause.

I am afraid you didn't read into my thesis as well as I had hoped you would. Had you read more than "parts" of it, I am sure you would've understood better. Allow me to dissect my thesis for you.

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen

Umah’s Betrayal: Premeditated or Impulsive? Is Love Something To Consider?

With the many ironies of the Legacy of Kain Series™, I felt that it was inevitable that Umah would betray Kain. Despite this, I believe that her motive for doing so wasn't as vindictive as most other characters who have done the same. I believe that Umah simply wanted to be the hero, I didn't get the impression that she wanted take away all that Kain had accomplished.

Translation: Umah never premeditated her betrayal towards Kain. She had nothing to gain and all to lose by it (obviously with her death). More on Umah playing the hero in a moment.

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
As Kain continued on through Blood Omen 2™ his arrogance became more apparent. I am willing to believe that Vorador had discussed Kain and his arrogant, power-hungry nature with his child following Kain’s defeat at the hands of The Sarafan Lord 200 years ago. Umah most likely disregarded Vorador’s warnings of Kain as she cared for him during his slumber. I believe that this is when she learned to hold feelings for Kain. By the time that Kain had awakened, Umah was beginning to fall in love. As she retrained Kain, I believe she naively felt that Vorador was wrong about him, and even perhaps underestimated him herself.

Translation: This is where your "brainwashing" notion would come into play. Vorador as Umah's sire, would have naturally fueled her head and the rest of the Cabal's head with untrue stories and negative opinions of Kain. In their eyes, Vorador could and does no wrong.

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
I don’t believe that Vorador ever really liked Kain on account of Kain’s desire for power. Umah foolishly stated at the beginning of Blood Omen 2™ that the Cabal could not defeat the Sarafan alone, and that they were willing to put everything on the line in order to enlist Kain to help their cause. When it appeared that Kain grew closer to his victory over The Sarafan Lord, Umah panicked. She was devoted to Vorador and Kain was infringing on that bond and making her look like less of a leader to her kind. Fearing her own embarrassment and perhaps feeling that she was no longer Vorador’s “favorite”, Umah needed to do something, and fast. In her mind, taking the Nexus Stone surely would protect her from being defeated by The Sarafan Lord. At this point, nothing mattered but her own reputation. Did Umah love Kain? Yes. I believe she did, however, she proved willing to throw her feelings aside to maintain the bond with her sire, Vorador, without weighing the consequences of her actions first.

It is obvious to me that this was amongst the biggest pieces that you "missed" the deeper meaning of. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Morte
I also think she was very loyal to the Cabal and wanted for the vampires to prosper, and Kain's relentless ambition and ruthlessness worried her. She believed that what she was doing was for the greater good of the Cabal and vampires of Nosgoth by not allowing Kain to become too powerful. I agree that she loved him, but pushed her feelings aside for what she believed was a greater cause

Her reputation was on the line (shallow or not). She was Vorador's right-hand woman, had she not been the direct cause of the victory over the Hylden, or had she failed, her position could've been easily taken away and Vorador could've cast her aside like a dog. Umah had already slipped up once, allowing Kain to take the upperhand (when she fell victim to a hylden capture). The more slip ups one makes, the less they look in the eyes of those in positions of power (Vorador) and the more likely they are to be demoted and/or ostracised alltogether.

Originally posted by Morte
I also agree that Kain was justified in killing her, but not for the reasons you mention, at least not mainly for them.
You claim he punished her, because that is something a good leader would do, and because she stole his/their glory.
Like I said, I don't think she was doing this to be a hero, so that part about stealing his glory does not hold true for me. I think he punished her because she betrayed him, she betryed his trust. Kain could not care less about equality in dealing out justice, his rule was never a just one anyway, nor did he care how it would make him look like, if he let her live.
No, he killed her because he knew that if she betrayed him once, she is likely to do so again in the future, with possibly more devastating results. He would always have to watch his back with her, if he let her live, never to be able to trust her again.
Ironic, how she lost his trust because of not placing her trust in him, as he did in her.

Yet another part you missed. Allow me to again repeat myself. (And please pay attention to what I boldface).


[b]What kind of leader would Kain be if he had spared Umah? Kain would be a total hypocrite if he let her live, and destroyed others who committed trespasses against him (Marcus, Faustus). She betrayed him by stealing his glory, actually not necessarily HIS glory per say, but THEIR glory. From the dialogue, it seemed that Kain was willing to share the victory of defeating the Sarafan Lord, however Umah's impulsive nature prevented that. I agree that Umah gave Kain what he wanted to hear as opposed to the truth, which in fact condemned her. He was justified in taking her life because a good leader must ensure just punishment for subjects who step out of line, this leads to deterring similar crimes from taking place. Umah's death occurred as a just punishment. I don't think Vorador even questioned the punishme