about the SR2 ending

[fneh]

can someone explain to me how aziel is actually trapped within the blood reaver?
Does it have something to do with the wraith blade or does the blood reaver take reaziel's soul because he doesn't have a realy physical body with blood?

It doesn't make sense that it can devour souls BEFORE the reason it devours soul is there in the first place...

Maybe raziel was never meant to be inprisoned within the reaver at all.. Maybe it's just something to confuse everyone.
here's my reasoning:

1. There's no logical way I know that the blood reaver can take reaziels soul without using the wraith blade. If it used the wraith blade then there would be a massive paradox due to the reaver devouring it's own soul.

2. Raziel suggested that he survived the abyss because he's somehow indestructible for some reason. While Amy said that what raziel says is not necesarily true in regards to this statement it kinda prooves him right if he survived the abyss AND the soul reaver.

3. Maybe the soul reaver was destroyed because raziel can't BE devoured? He doesn't have a real body and will just be forced into spectral if his 'physical' presence is injured enough......Last I remember raziel DID shift the second the blade was destroyed...

4. Part of raziel's soul is also a portion of kains soul..all the lt.s have a portion of kains soul. who is to say that the remaining part of kains soul (turel) isn't the entity within the blade? afterall, it would explain how raziel can carry the wraith blade without being put in vertigo all the time from the paradox of 2 of his souls constantly meeting and would explain why the soul reaver can't harm any of his brothers.

5.maybe the soul reaver is simply forged the same way the elemental reavers are forged....perhaps kain will forge the soul reaver at the end of defiance from a forge....

[Matt from Spam Buddies]

Hmm... I like Your 4th point, fneh.

As a matter of fact, the other day, I was talking about the same thang to my friends.

That could also partly explain why Turel wasn't in LOK-SR - Raziel or someone killed him before... I guess...

-sigh-

This is confusing. None the less, a good theory. Worth to be archived in my head to see if it proves correct in LOK-D.

- Matthew

[Matt from Spam Buddies]

Okay, thanks. I'll check it when I have the time.

I also support that idea and would like to see what'd You think.

- Matthew

[Apocrypha Roxy]

Originally posted by fneh
can someone explain to me how Raziel is actually trapped within the blood reaver?
Does it have something to do with the wraith blade or does the blood reaver take Raziel's soul because he doesn't have a realy physical body with blood?

Raz goes on a killing spree with the Reaver glued to his hand. After skewering himself on the Reaver, the wraithblade, now away from the influence of Moebius’ staff, leaves Raziel’s arm and curls around the physical blade. The wraithblade is now in the mood for a munchie. Raziel is the only one there. So it decides to eat Raz. So he gets sucked into it (because the wraith blade is a separate entity – and it is now coiled around the physical blade instead of Raz).

It doesn't make sense that it can devour souls BEFORE the reason it devours soul is there in the first place...

It (the blood reaver) didn’t devour the souls. Raziel’s wraithblade devoured the soul(s). The wraith blade was always there because of Raz traveling into the past. So it existed, but yet it didn’t in the time period. Confusing.

Maybe Raziel was never meant to be inprisoned within the reaver at all.. Maybe it's just something to confuse everyone.
here's my reasoning:

1. There's no logical way I know that the blood reaver can take Raziels soul without using the wraith blade. If it used the wraith blade then there would be a massive paradox due to the reaver devouring it's own soul.

That’s the ending. :rolleyes:

2. Raziel suggested that he survived the abyss because he's somehow indestructible for some reason. While Amy said that what Raziel says is not necesarily true in regards to this statement it kinda prooves him right if he survived the abyss AND the soul reaver.

I don’t think Raziel knows exactly what’s going on (has he ever, since the beginning?). He’s winging it! So there’s no definate answer. Defiance will clear a few things up for us. I hope.


3. Maybe the soul reaver was destroyed because Raziel can't BE devoured? He doesn't have a real body and will just be forced into spectral if his 'physical' presence is injured enough......Last I remember Raziel DID shift the second the blade was destroyed...

The wraith blade was destroyed in SR1 when Kain tried to strike him down – knowing all the while that it would shatter and bind itself to Raz. The reaver could not devour its own soul. But at the end of SR2, the wraith blade didn’t exist until then. THAT’s when the wraith blade was to be forged with Raziel’s soul. That was his destiny.

4. Part of Raziel's soul is also a portion of Kains soul..all the Lt.s have a portion of Kains soul. who is to say that the remaining part of Kains soul (turel) isn't the entity within the blade? afterall, it would explain how Raziel can carry the wraith blade without being put in vertigo all the time from the paradox of 2 of his souls constantly meeting and would explain why the soul reaver can't harm any of his brothers.

Actually, Raziel’s soul is just Raziel’s soul. Kain gave a portion of his soul to each of the brethren when he raised them. When Raziel was cast into the abyss, he technically died. As did all of his brethren, excluding Turel. Although you might just have a point…
His soul would not be put into limbo constantly from a paradox of both souls in the same time and space, because that’s what History/Destiny has written out. It’s ‘okay’ for him to carry his soul on his sleeve for a certain amount of time. Thus, when the blade tries to eat him, it’s Destiny’s way of saying ‘Okay you’ve done enough. Now you get shlepped in the blade until you’re reincarnated, then you get to do it all over again. Because I said so.’

5.maybe the soul reaver is simply forged the same way the elemental reavers are forged....perhaps Kain will forge the soul reaver at the end of defiance from a forge....

Wasn’t there supposed to be a soul forge in SR2, or something? A fount of Raziel’s soul? God, does EVERYTHING happen to this poor b*stard?! :p

[fneh]

I still don't understand how raziel's soul ends up in the blood reaver though.

I always understood that it was the wraith blade doing everything in the ending and that the blood reaver happened to be in his hand at the tim (thus impailing him) but can't only the wraith blade do any harm to raziel? the wraith blade would suck raziel's soul up (ironically commiting suicide in a way) and then the wraith blade would be left without a host all together. Why would it want that? Could it use the blood reaver as a host? Is that it?

If that was the case then surely raziel could find a way to simply put the wraith blade in the blood reaver. If it's HIS soul on his arm then his physical body doesn't need devouring (his soul is already there) unless killing the current host is the only way to pass onto a new one..

[Apocrypha Roxy]

1) The blade becomes over-aroused after uncoiling itself from Raziel - it is NO LONGER part of Raziel, then.

2) The blade devours Raziel (who then becomes the wraith entity in the Reaver).

Raziel is the wraith blade. So he in essence eats himself. That sounded wierd, but it's true. So now Raziel is trapped in the physical blade. The wraith blade is now part of the physical Reaver. In a few millenia, Kain strikes the newly reincarnated Wraith Raziel with the blade, and the cycle happens all over again.

So, he really doesn't get eaten by the blood reaver. He gets eaten by the wraith reaver. The wraith blade just sticks itself to the physical blade.

The wraith blade is what did the damage, not the physical blade. Getting impaled by it was not what was in essence killing him, it was the wraith reaver draining him.

As for the current host... Raziel was technically the only host. But he had to die - or get sucked up - to get into the Reaver. And the beat goes on, da-da-dum-da-dum-da-da...

Now you've got me confused!!! :confused:

[Lady_D]

Everytime I read anything about the end of SR2, I feel more sorry for poor Raz. He just never gets a break, does he?

[fneh]

so the wraith blade takes the blood reaver as it's host after raziel but to do this it has to devour raziel first?

That would make sense if not for the fact that the wraith blade uncoiled itself from raziel to embrace the blood reaver...

I mean the elder said that from 'this moment and ever after' raziel is joined to the soul reaver, but it managed to leave him before trying to kill him.......

[chaotic_blue]

I thought there was no soul in the blood reaver...
it was a vampire blade (that drank the blood of its victims) IT HADNT SUCKED RAZIEL INTO IT YET. i like to think of it as raz goin into it instead of it taking him... it doesnt eat raz's brothers souls either... they go up an disappear in the air. this all takes place back in time. then raziels destiny is supposed to be carried out. (him being sucked in) ONLY AFTER that would the reaver be
a soul stealing weapon. also, the reaver never actually left raziel,
it is raziel. Its still wrapped around his arm when he fades to the
spectral realm... showing that he didnt escape his fate. what i think about is the whole 'loop' thing. its supposed to be a big loop right. so did they 'change' fate every time??? and that is all the ACTUAL fate, or did they actually change fate???

[Raz]

Lady_D:

I know what ya mean about Raziel! Man, sometimes I think I have tough days! :p

[Apocrypha Roxy]

They didn't exactly change his fate - they merely postponed it. He's still got the wraith blade because he didn't get sucked in all the way. So it got pulled back.

The physical Reaver was a vampiric blade. Only devoured blood. When all of the brethren are dead, Raziel's soul (the Soul Reaver) is over-aroused. Since it hasn't fed - it eats Raz (or at least tries to). But Raz was fated to be devoured by the wraith blade - because that becomes the soul-devouring entity that coils around the physical blade for Kain to use in a few hundred years.

Raziel's soul is twinned - but when it coiled around the physical blade, the twin turned itself on Raziel to make itself whole. Because, if it DIDN'T happen, there would be 3 Raziel souls, instead of 2. (Wraith blade, Raz, Sarafan Raz who's waiting to be ressurected). This can't happen, because the ressurected soul would be Raziel as we know him. So it would be... okay, confusing, just alot of Raziels.

Am I the only one who's brain is spinning with the possibilities?

[KoolKat]

My brain is just spinning with confusion at the moment. :confused:

Poor Raziel. He never does get a break. As if being killed once wasn't enough, they have to keep on killing him, devouring him and throwing him into paradozes. :(

Poor guy needs a big hug. {{{{hugs}}}}

Hmmm, a lot of Raziel's eh? I think I like the idea of that. :p

As for Turel.... he seems to be a wildcard. He could be anything at the moment. His mysterious disappearence (originally due to production time limits) can place him practically anywhere in all this madness. :o

[xarax]

Originally posted by KoolKat
/snip/
As for Turel.... he seems to be a wildcard. He could be anything at the moment. His mysterious disappearence (originally due to production time limits) can place him practically anywhere in all this madness. :o

I would like to think that Turel knew his days were numbered in SR1. (Remember that Kain told Rahab that Raziel would destroy Rahab.) So, what would Turel do? He'd make a deal with Moebius for passage through the timestream to earlier days, in exchange for Turel switching his allegiance to Moebius.

That would mean Raziel may be able to meet the devolved Turel vampire in Defiance, slay him and gain whatever Turel's vampiric gift is.

2 cents worth. I don't believe for a moment that Amy is thinking along these lines, but it would be cool.

[someguysteve]

2) The blade devours Raziel (who then becomes the wraith entity in the Reaver).

I've always wondered how this could happen at the end of SR2, but not in SR1 when Kain strikes Raziel. the in SR1 the blade should have sucked raziel in, but it doesn't. then how did the blade in SR2 pull him in, when it should have shattered.

[chaotic_blue]

raziel couldnt devour his own soul... raziel wasnt in the blade in the end of SR2. he was in it in SR1. thats why the souls of the sarafan in the end of SR2 disappear into thin air... raziel isnt in there to suck them up. its still a vampiric blade, hance the suckage of the blood.

[someguysteve]

raziel couldnt devour his own soul... raziel wasnt in the blade in the end of SR2. he was in it in SR1. thats why the souls of the sarafan in the end of SR2 disappear into thin air... raziel isnt in there to suck them up. its still a vampiric blade, hence the suckage of the blood.

right, i get that, but doesn't Moebius's staff suddenly release its power over the wraith blade which then embraces the BR right before Raziel impales himself. Wouldn't the wraith blade coiled around the BR then act as the SR. Or perhaps the wrath blades merely wrapped around the blood reaver instead of inhabiting the BR, the WB couldn't devour Raziel so it pulled him into the BR and the twinned WBs free of their host finally escape into the ether, so after it all Raziel gets a break.