The Brothers

[gehntheberserker]

I have a question that has been bugging me for some time now.

- Did the Lt's had any of their "evolution" powers when they were still vampires???What kindda powers did they have then?

-Now about some pictures that were poste in NR forum sometime ago : Where are Dumah's and Zephon's???

Examples :

http://www.geocities.com/gehntheberserker/morlocker.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/gehntheberserker/aluka.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/gehntheberserker/skinner.jpg

[gehntheberserker]

Hey everyone thanx for the info!!:o :(

[Lozza Mate]

links don't work.

the brothers did not have their respective powers when Raz was a vampire. They evolved them over time.

[Matthew]

First of all - the links don't work.
But I think I know those pics.
There aren't no Duman and Zephon because, as I recall, those pics were done by a mortal (that means a person who hasn't got to do anything official with the series).

And the Lt's were still vampires in SR1 - just adults.
No one actually knows what powers they had.

- Matthew

[Lozza Mate]

^^^ true dat.

the pics were done by a fan. they are not official.

[Vampmaster]

Here's the original links and thread:

http://www.boydlake.com/soul_reaver/skinner.htm

http://www.boydlake.com/soul_reaver/aluka.htm

http://www.boydlake.com/soul_reaver/morlock.htm

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14137&perpage=25&highlight=Morlock%20OR%20Aluka%20OR%20Skinner&pagenumber=1

They may have been done by a fan, but I'm sure they were meant to look like that in the video, but it's hard to tell because of the lighting and the distance. I wonder if Chris could confirm whether they were designed like that.

[Embla]

Are you sure he`s a fan?
I thought he worked as a character modeler and animator at GlyphX. (The company responsible for the SR1 and SR2 intros.)

[gehntheberserker]

I'm almost sure that the guy is a professional that was workinf for/collaborating with Crystal dynamics.

I'm also quite suprised : can't you see the resmblences with the faces in SR1 intro?They are quite obvious.

[Embla]

Actually, his resume says he has been working for GlyphX.

[Vampmaster]

Originally posted by gehntheberserker
I'm almost sure that the guy is a professional that was workinf for/collaborating with Crystal dynamics.

I'm also quite suprised : can't you see the resmblences with the faces in SR1 intro?They are quite obvious.

Well I couldn't prove it to anyone at Nosgothic Realm even with screenshots. They all just said all the brothers faces were white.

[Blade2642]

He did work for CD I wisited his page. He has worked on many other games as well. Sorry I can't link you up to his web-page I can't remember the adress...

[Umah Bloodomen]

www.boydlake.com

[Embla]

Quote from his site:

While at GlyphX, I helped create the Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver intro cinematic. I keyframed everything you see until Raziel falls into the abyss. I modeled many elements you see in the clip, but not Kain's body or head, or Raziel's body or head. Many assemblies and costume pieces were built by me as (such as the wings for Raziel) well as the sculpted maquette used as the basis for Kain's head.
I did texture everything on the lead characters except for the skin of their faces, their hair, and the skin on their torso. I also built and textured the head models for Raziel's 5 brothers which are briefly seen in this clip.

Though my main keyframing duties ended when Raziel falls, I also was in charge of cloth effects animation for the entire piece. I also created practical lighting for all my shots to match lighting from the approval images. This clip is a Quicktime file. (27 mb)


Link:

http://www.boydlake.com/animation/animation.htm

[Ladra de Almas]

Wonderfull

[Dylan]

Yay, cool, I remember those images. :)

As for what powers they would already have as Sarafans or Vampires... perhaps weaker versions of the ones Raziel ultimately steals from them.

It is said that Kain imbued each of his Sons with a dark gift. Perhaps we can assume that Kain possesses all of these powers as well.


Raziel fought his evolved brothers in Soul Reaver 1, his Sarafan brother in Soul Reaver 2... maybe he'll encounter his Vampire brethren in Defiance?

[gehntheberserker]

Turel is already confirmed!As for the others : I'm quite sure they won't appear.:D

[darien_specter]

Those renderings are very interesting! It seems to lend credence to a point I made quite awhile ago; it seemed to me that, as the abilities of the other five brothers are much less physically obvious than large bat-wings, that they may well have evolved those abilities at the same time as Raziel, but were able to conceal them from Kain, whereas Raziel could not.

Which is all to say, I think that their abilities had indeed begun to manifest themselves at the same time as Raziel's, but that they were able to conceal them to a much greater degree.

And yes, it is not really proof of anything that an employee of GlyphX made some renderings of his interpretations of what CD gave them as guidelines. I'd still say what I said whether these images existed or not; it is after all the original point of the thread!

[gehntheberserker]

Why would they have to hide them from Kain?

Only Raziel had something Kain wanted - to fly!

[madcdcd]

The question that comes to my mind is how could the bros. begin manifesting their abilities when Raz states in the intro to SR1 that the vampiers would enter a " state of accelerated metamorphosis"?
That tells me that they would enter some kind of cocoon or something and emerge changed. Not something gradual.
Please tell me if I'm off base here. I'm finding this very enlightening.:)

[fneh]

as far as I'm aware they DO go into a cacoon for an amount of time then energe.

Howeer, the brothers did change a LOT over the centuries. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have suddenly changed that much all at once. As raziel did, they would gain a new trait (such as gils, or think skin) then evolve further from there. I can't see a little LT. melchiah going into a cacoon then waking up looking that big can you?

[madcdcd]

True, very true.

[gehntheberserker]

Yes you are right about the cocoon theory.

But the point to my first question on this thread was

Example : Did Melchiah already posess the Phase ability when we see him in SR1 intro??

[Vampmaster]

Maybe he inherited Kains mist ability and it evolved from that. Kain wouldn't have minded since he had already experienced that before Melchiah.

[fneh]

I don't think he would have had the ability then. I think he only gained it after he learned how to enter spectral.

Kain didn't kill the otheres because he knew raziel needed to absorb their souls. Amy Henning said herself that kain threw razzy into the abyss for a reason: He knew raziel would come back and kil his brothers. There was also a reason for raziel having his wings torn off (I'm guessing it was so janos would die)

[darien_specter]

Or so that Raziel wouldn't fly away when they threw him in the lake...

[fneh]

Amy said in an interview that tearing raziel's wings off so he wouldn't fly out of the abyss wasn't his main reason for doing it though......of course, in the bloody abyss they would have been torn off anyway so whatever other reason kain had must've been important to make totally sure eh?

[Vampmaster]

Originally posted by fneh
There was also a reason for raziel having his wings torn off (I'm guessing it was so janos would die)

Good point. If he could have flown up to meet Janos, the Sarafan could never have got to him Vorador wouldn't have attacked the circle and Ariel and Nupraptor wouldn't have been chosen as successors and that would mean neither would Kain.

[Dylan]

For that matter, why didn't Janos just fly away?

[warpsavant]

Because they embrace their fates. The main reason Kain breaks the wings is to enrage Raziel, and play into Raziels ability to hate.

[Johnny_anoniem]

Ehrmm... Hello everybody :D, I finished all of the Soul Reaver games (and Blood Omen 2) and I didn't meet any brothers called Skinner, Aluka or Morlock.... Where did he suppose to meet those vampire brothers??? Can you people please inform me about those vampires :D..
On the other hand: I do know: Melchiah, Zephon, Turel, Rahab and includig Raziel that makes 5 lieutenants.. and I thought there were only 5 of them??? So how could this guy @ GlyphX make pictures from lieutenants that don't even exist :rolleyes:, must be my lack of knowledge, but please fill me in people :D.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Those names were the conceptual names issued to the lieutenants/bosses during development.

SR1 Names compliments of Blincoln @ The Lost Worlds (http://www.thelostworlds.net/LoK-Names.HTML)

Near the bottom of the page.

Morlock actually remained in the game, in the form of the Tomb Guardian boss.

EDIT: Added the link.

[Dylan]

Originally posted by warpsavant
Because they embrace their fates. The main reason Kain breaks the wings is to enrage Raziel, and play into Raziels ability to hate.

Fair enough, thanks for answering, warp!

As for Raziel's ability to hate - his Sarafan self was raised on hate, no doubt, were as vampire Raziel was probably too decadent to really care. Well, Kain would have trained his sons to dispise humanity.

Its interesting to think about the similarities and the differences between their respective ultimate deaths.

[Johnny_anoniem]

Originally posted by Umah Bloodomen
Those names were the conceptual names issued to the lieutenants/bosses during development.

SR1 Names compliments of Blincoln @ The Lost Worlds (http://www.thelostworlds.net/LoK-Names.HTML)

Near the bottom of the page.

Morlock actually remained in the game, in the form of the Tomb Guardian boss.

EDIT: Added the link.


ooow now I see why :D. Thanks for your information! But another question about the Morlocks: Are they the "offspring" of Turel, or are they just some kind of vampires who don't have any of the lieutenants as their "creator"?

[ZelenGangrel]

Also, about the ripping of the wings. You notice Kain made sure to rip out the bones, but leave the skin of the wings. Also, if I remember correctly, there was an interview at Gamespot a long time ago with Amy. In it she said that Raziel has no form, this blue muscle, torn wing, destroyed form is more of a creation of his own battered psyche. And if he wanted, he could very easily look like something else. Its just that this is the way he believes himself to look after the trip through the Abyss.

Raziel doesnt have a physical body anymore, this is just the form he sees himself as.

[gehntheberserker]

He does have a physical form.How else could he be seen by other characters and interact with the environment?

[warpsavant]

Originally posted by Johnny_anoniem
ooow now I see why :D. Thanks for your information! But another question about the Morlocks: Are they the "offspring" of Turel, or are they just some kind of vampires who don't have any of the lieutenants as their "creator"?


Morlock is a Turelim. There are no Morlocks, just a bunch of Turelim, and one of them is named Morlock. Well, i guess at one time we had Morlock Boss 1 and Morlock Boss 2, but we lost one of them somewhere and we just got Morlock the Turelim.

[someguysteve]

He does have a physical form.How else could he be seen by other characters and interact with the environment?

not a real body in a sense, his true nature is that of a soul, and that part of him isn't based on anything, but what he percieves himslef to be so he could look like anything, but a combination of being thrown into the abyss and maybe a general loathing of the world (1,000 years old and tired of everything) means he sees himself as being destroyed. his physical body is then based off of his soul. so i guess he could have his wings or even the appearance of his former self if he had higher selfesteam.

[fneh]

Originally posted by warpsavant
Because they embrace their fates. The main reason Kain breaks the wings is to enrage Raziel, and play into Raziels ability to hate.


And throwing the guy into the abyss for centuries wouldn't do that anyway?

[fneh]

Janos couldn't fly away because of the lovely staff that was being borrowed form a certain time streamer. It makes him completely vunerable.


I still can't get over why janos teleported raziel away then though. all raziel would have had disabled was the wraith blade and we know raziel wouldn't need that to save janos from a few scabby sarafan warriors. Even if raziel couldn't hold them all off they could hardly kill him like janos seemed to think they could...Why does Janos believe raziel is a vampire? there's something strange about their encounter that stinks of raziel being restored and meeting Janos in an earlier time.

[gehntheberserker]

Yea.I assume that janos was expecting an Ancient named Raziel.So it had to be a vampire.

[Johnny_anoniem]

Originally posted by warpsavant
Morlock is a Turelim. There are no Morlocks, just a bunch of Turelim, and one of them is named Morlock. Well, i guess at one time we had Morlock Boss 1 and Morlock Boss 2, but we lost one of them somewhere and we just got Morlock the Turelim.


Ahhh.. now I finally really get it!! :D thanks for all your information!! I really appreciate it ;)

And about that Janos thingy: Maybe Janos had a special reason why he transported Raziel, because he WANTED to be destroyed and had his own special reason for that?? (things that happened in Blood Omen 2...)

[KoolKat]

Why has he renamed them in the pictures?

Skinner - Melchiah
Aluka - Rahab
Morlock - Turel (I know that Morlock is an actual character, but they seem to have given his name to Turel in this pic)

I don't understand what they mean by Codenames. Why?

[ZelenGangrel]

Skinner should be easy to figure out if you read through the game manual.

Aluka sounds aquatic for sure

And Morlock as Blincoln pointed out was the work in progress name for Turel.

[KoolKat]

Yes, I know about what the names mean... :)

what I don't understand is why they have given those names to them.

Work in progress. Hmm, I understand that he would've been called Morlock originally but they changed his name.... but what of the others?

I guess what I'm trying to ask is... what is a code name?

Is it an alias to hide the characters real name so that nobody finds out until it is finally released?

Ok, I'm just confusing myself, so I'm gonna shut-up now and just admire the artwork. :p

[gehntheberserker]

No problem man.I'll explain :

Crystal Dynamics had an idea for 5 Lt's ( and Raz) and they had already "invented" their powers.

So Melchiah was the skinner : since he had to skin people

Zephon is the wallcrawler : obvious

Rahab is Aluka : aluka means leecher , another word for vampire; they just knew it was going to be a vampire:p

Dumah is Ronin : a ronin is a samurai that has lost his leader;dumah left kain, and the dumahim left dumah

Turel is Morlock : don't know

[KoolKat]

Thanx, but I know what their powers are and why they might be named that, but I still don't get why they were given those names as well as their proper names.

Here's two conclusions I have come up with....

those names are the names given to them during development and are only idea names that they carry until they find perfect names for them.

or

the names are false names given to them that whilst meaning the same thing, do not give away the characters real name whilst still indevelopment.

I think I'm coming close to figuring it out. :D

[gehntheberserker]

Man I thought you knew that...

..they are development names only.They only came up with the official names afterword.;)

[darien_specter]

The impression I get is that Janos did not even know that Raziel had the wraith blade... all he knew was that Raziel was coming.

As for that, I have my own thoughts... I think I linked to my thoughts on that in my latest big post over in the SR forum. Maybe I'll hunt it up later and add it to this... the gist is that what happened to Raziel at the end of SR2 was supposed to happen in Janos' retreat... Janos was to pull the blade as Kain did... but Moebius knew what was going to happen, and manipulated Raziel across the centuries to kill Janos, get the Soul Reaver and eliminate Raziel from the picture.

The fact that Kain is only using the Blood Reaver in Defiance upsets my apple cart somewhat, but we'll see about that when the game comes out... :P

[Vampmaster]

Originally posted by warpsavant
Morlock is a Turelim. There are no Morlocks, just a bunch of Turelim, and one of them is named Morlock. Well, i guess at one time we had Morlock Boss 1 and Morlock Boss 2, but we lost one of them somewhere and we just got Morlock the Turelim.

It never actually tells us his name in the game itself. I think they just gave him Turels concept name after they decided to leave Turel out. I just assume the Turelim are a race of Morlocks and the Melchiahim are a race of Skinners etc.

[KoolKat]

Originally posted by gehntheberserker
Man I thought you knew that...

..they are development names only.They only came up with the official names afterword.;)

Sorry, I'm a bit of a thicko. :p Thanx for explaining. :)

[gehntheberserker]

Hey man, no problem.

Somethings can be difficult to understand in such a vast world;) :D

[KoolKat]

Too true. This world is a highly complex and confusing place... :D