Ironic or Ambiguous?

[Vampmaster]

Which do you think makes LOK more compelling and which type of ending would be better? An ironic ending would be for example where the ancients turn out to be the bad guys/invaders and an ambiguous ending would be one that is neither good or bad, where things get better in one way but worse in another.

Personally I like LOK because of how Kain was never exactly evil and Raziel was never exactly good. They just do that they feel necessary. Kain could be trying to save Nosgoth in order to have a better empire, or he could have made his empire in order to save Nosgoth, but either way he's doing right thing even if it's for selfish reasons.

The Sarafan were never evil either, just manipulated, and I think the ancients and hylden aren't evil either. There would be no ultimate bad guy, however there has to be some sort of parasite or predator who has become too powerful so that it feels like we have acomplished something by winning the game after it is defeated. It wouldn't be evil, just too dangerous to be allowed to live.

I would want an ending like this: The Elder is killed, allowing the pillars get healed, but doing this unlocks them and the hylden are set loose. However the hylden as a race are not evil, but some of them would be in a fanatical cult which has members ranging through human, hylden, and vampire gain power upon the unlocking of the pillars. The demons would be what members of this cult evolve into as their power increases.

I just realised that my suggestion could be both ironic and ambiguous if the Elder was a creation of this cult (like the mass) and he was trying to destroy the pillars so that they could never be unlocked. This would make his intentions good afterall, however he was trying to imprison a whole race to protect Nosgoth from a minority and also because of his nature, he would need to feed on souls and he didn't care that he was destroying the land as well. I guess the Elder would have had a two sided coin as well. He can't allow Nosgoth to be healed without releasing the demons. I guess there's a few holes in that with the demons apparantly working for him.

EDIT: Broke it up a bit.

[Umah Bloodomen]

Originally posted by Vampmaster
Which do you think makes LOK more compelling and which type of ending would be better? An ironic ending would be for example where the ancients turn out to be the bad guys/invaders and an ambiguous ending would be one that is neither good or bad, where things get better in one way but worse in another.

Where's the ambiguously ironic option? :confused: :p ;)

Originally posted by Vampmaster
Personally I like LOK because of how Kain was never exactly evil and Raziel was never exactly good. They just do that they feel necessary. Kain could be trying to save Nosgoth in order to have a better empire, or he could have made his empire in order to save Nosgoth, but either way he's doing right thing even if it's for selfish reasons.

I've commented in both alignment threads how I feel that both, Kain and Raziel are neutral parties. (How far neutral isn't an issue ATM). Kain is more selfish than Raziel, but I fault him not. I don't want to go out and say either one of them is doing the "right" thing necessarily, rather I feel we can leave it as doing what is necessary on account we aren't really sure what the "right" thing actually is at this point. It's easy to assume that restoring Pillars, restores Nosgoth, and everything ends up being all hunky-dorey. :rolleyes: But with the already great influence of irony being apparent in the series, what if our expectations and what we are currently perceiving to happen in the series, is totally wrong, and (the two actions I just listed) actually condemns Nosgoth further? Then we'd be left with Kain and Raziel being their own puppetmasters, with a lot of egg on both of their faces. (Or lackthereof). ;)

Originally posted by Vampmaster
The Sarafan were never evil either, just manipulated, and I think the ancients and hylden aren't evil either. There would be no ultimate bad guy, however there has to be some sort of parasite or predator who has become too powerful so that it feels like we have acomplished something by winning the game after it is defeated. It wouldn't be evil, just too dangerous to be allowed to live.

As far as The Sarafan are concerned, I do agree with you, the group itself wasn't necessarily evil, although I am sure with the propaganda involved with their creators and internal high-ranking officers, some of them could have been evil and highly vindictive towards the vampire menace. (Maybe even obsessed with their eradication). Same would apply for the Ancients and Hylden I would imagine. About the only parasites/predators we know at this time would be Hash'ak'gik and the Elder and the Mass. In regards to "winning the game" what if there actually is no one entity behind the game, determining the rules, but rather all groups/entities involved are merely thrown together in the mixing bowl, each with the desire to be the best, causing whatever problems that arise, no rules, no holds barred, just for themselves alone? What if they are actually all so advanced and so powerful, that they all cannot be allowed to live? Something to ponder over I am sure.

Originally posted by Vampmaster
I would also want an ending like this: The Elder is killed, allowing the pillars get healed, but doing this unlocks them and the hylden are set loose. However the hylden as a race are not evil, but some of them would be in a fanatical cult which has members ranging through human, hylden, and vampire gain power upon the unlocking of the pillars. The demons would be what members of this cult evolve into as their power increases. I just realised that my suggestion could be both ironic and ambiguous if the Elder was a creation of this cult (like the mass) and he was trying to destroy the pillars so that they could never be unlocked. This would make his intentions good afterall, however he was trying to imprison a whole race to protect Nosgoth from a minority and also because of his nature, he would need to feed on souls and he didn't care that he was destroying the land as well. I guess the Elder would have had a two sided coin as well. He can't allow Nosgoth to be healed without releasing the demons. I guess there's a few holes in that with the demons apparantly working for him.

For the most part, I try to stay away from the "what kind of ending I would like" type discussion. I will, however, make a slight exception. In any case, you've presented a very interesting idea for an ending, Vampmaster, and I applaud it.

I would personally like to see an ending something like this: (Doesn't have to be exact until the point where Kain takes the upperhand and sacrifices himself).

Kain and Raziel continue on the same path of peace we witnessed in SR2. Kain serves as the guide of course, and Raziel opens his eyes to the bigger picture of things, or what he believes is the bigger picture. Throw in the ironic twist of the actual reason behind the Ancients vs. Hylden, and discover that Janos is actually covering up the faults of the Ancients. As far as the Hylden are concerned, I believe the events of BO2 occur, and they are vanquished. Raziel, in the meantime is taking out the Elder, as Kain sets his sights on removing Janos from the picture for his trespasses against Nosgoth and the vampires themselves and for getting them all in this mess to begin with.

Raziel meets up with Kain to gloat about slaying Squiddy, Kain again takes the upperhand and secures his fate within the Soul Reaver. (Yes, by killing him, again...lol), gives some poignant speech about why this has to be and give slight indication as to what his next move is. Kain, then content with himself, and what has occurred to this point, finally sacrifices himself, and allows new Guardians to be born.

Another point of irony is that the Guardians are still people, sharing a symbiotic relationship with an Ancient edifice and in my scenario, the Ancients aren't good. I feel that it leaves it open for another corruption to occur, say after Janos (the last of his race is dead) he reverts back to the Pillars as do the original twisted agendas of his race. The symbiosis becomes dominance, the guardians become slaves, chaos could happen, and eventually nothing is solved.

I really hope this seemed to have had a point. I am quite tired and trying my best to formulate a proper thought ATM. I am sure there is some point of asininity included in my ending, and I'll be happy to address any/all flaws with it upon a nice 12 or so hour nap. :p ;)

[Vampmaster]

I left out the ambiguously ironic option because I knew everyone would pick that and I wouldn't find out anything. What did you mean by "he reverts back to the Pillars"?

[Umah Bloodomen]

Originally posted by Vampmaster
I left out the ambiguously ironic option because I knew everyone would pick that and I wouldn't find out anything. What did you mean by "he reverts back to the Pillars"?

I was being humorous with the ambiguously ironic statement. :)

In hindsight, I believe that reverts was probably an incorrect word choice on my part. My apologies. I should have said absorbed, giving the indication that when Janos is properly disposed of (obviously ripping his heart out won't do the trick, although I don't have specifics on how you can properly dispose of him ATM) his soul is absorbed by the Pillars, similar to what presumably occurs with the Balance Guardian. (The only exception is they are completely absorbed and not in an Ariel-type state of limbo).

Being the architects of the Pillars leads me to believe that there could be some event that occurs upon the true death of a member of the Ancient race. Their souls being absorbed by the Pillars was merely one speculation.

We're completely theorizing on this however, due to the fact we don't know the specifics of the Ancients' magical abilities, the Pillars' design (magical properties) or if the Ancients are actually evil and have hidden agendas that could quite possibly be implemented in the design due to spellwork or whatnot.

I hope I cleared that up. ;)


EDIT: I added a sentence to the absorbed paragraph because I felt I wasn't being specific enough.

[Omega One]

Had to skim read that, sorry man... to little new lines ;)

I voted for the latter. I think ironic endings are generally figured out long before we actually see them - and I said in a past post that I can imagine the LoK series (especially the SR games) having an ending which is bad....

[Vampmaster]

Ambiguous means not good or bad. But as long as it's good to watch.

[Omega One]

Thats what I ment ;)