wooohooooo, look at that RACK on Lara!!

[adobeARTIST]

Oh hi there :wave: Now that I have your attention, let me get to the real point of this thread :whistle:;)

When it comes to sex symbols in gaming, is there any bigger and more recognized (even outside the gaming community) than Lara Croft? So how is that image received by lady gamers?

Having been on these forums for 4 years, and seeing how it has one of the highest ratio of female members, I had always taken it to be that Lara's popularity was pretty much equal between genders. And there's no denying that Lara can have that "babe" appeal to some guys, and hey, nothing wrong with that since there's so much more to her than that (intelligence, wit, detemination, courage, etc...).

Now mmmmaybe being a guy it's not my place to say but I had always believed that to the female audience, Lara in similar regard was seen as a positive and inspiring role model, a character who exemplified that woman could be beautiful and powerful. That is to say the two qualities (among others like intelligence and courge) need not be mutually exclusive. And just look at how many cosplayers seek to emulate her.

But recently I came across a very provocative YouTube segment about the very subject of how games both entice and negatively deter women gamers. And among the examples listed, of course Lara Croft is mentioned. While the topic is not specifically about Tomb Raider (it's about the gaming media in general and female audiences) she does figure quite prominently in the debate. Even more interesting is that it makes mention of her redesign, but was made before any of the reveals (even the GI cover) when we had only rumour and speculation to go on.

Which kind of makes the dicsussion more intriguing as it went by ideas and principles of female character concepts to explore the argument. It's a really compelling segement to check out :)

R8ZVZRsy8N8

[a big house]

Without sounding too dumb, I just wanted to say IMO, I don't buy games because the character has an amazing body or whatever, I go for gameplay. and quite frankly, that 'presentation' concentrated way too much on the sexual side of opposing genders, (Like a man generally does do) and not the games themselves.

After all, I could go get my nails done or put on a skirt, but I'm not going to, because I don't want to, not because it's something that a women might do.

Although yes, it was interesting to watch... Squeaky man.

[Metalrocks]

the video surely covered some good points. yes, they always have to make females in games as sexy as hell with big breasts etc. i personally dont buy a game just because it has an attractive woman on it. i sure do enjoy a beautiful woman, im not denying that but for me the game play is more important.
what i dont like, if the woman is under dressed in a sexual way like we see in tekken, dead or alive, or, the hitman trailer with the sexy looking nones. sure its eye candy for male gamers and the games it self are at times fun to play but this doenst give me a reason to buy it just because of that. :rolleyes:

i enjoy seeing a beautiful woman kicking ass. since women are mostly seen as weak, fragile beings that cant do the same things as us men (but of course you have some men as well who cant handle dirt, etc) . i enjoy playing mirrors edge, tomb raider, blades of time, etc, were you have beautiful, sexy women as the protagonist. but i enjoy them because the game it self is fun.
in blades of time, you play a sexy women. she is under dressed by showing of her belly and legs, but later on you do get costumes which covers her skin, but are still tide on her body. her winter suit looks very elegant but at least it covers everything on her. yes, i do look at her but the game it self is fun as hell and thats what i enjoy more :D

if you ask me which female character i find more attractive or like more, i have to go with faith from mirrors edge.
why?? because she is not under dressed, an believable character, not particularly sexy but beautiful, kicks ass is intelligent AND her breasts arent big. :thumb::flowers:

my wife for example, she doesnt play the games i play. she tells me its to complicated to play them. she cant control the characters as me. she tried to play half life training mission and was really struggling to these tasks or even just walk straight.
even when she plays limbo, she uses TWO hands for the arrow buttons and still has problems.
she rather plays the casual games on her iphone because they are simple.

when she watches me playing, she is at times impressed how beautiful the women look. like lara, faith, etc. but she is more impressed what they can do. so i tease her asking her to do this stuff, and her reply is, she wishes she can do this. and it does give her some inspiration to be tougher.
so obviously it does make some impression on women to be more feisty in real life. lara for sure is one since she is not a typical city slicker.

[adobeARTIST]

my wife for example, she doesnt play the games i play. she tells me its to complicated to play them. she cant control the characters as me. she tried to play half life training mission and was really struggling to these tasks or even just walk straight.
even when she plays limbo, she uses TWO hands for the arrow buttons and still has problems.
she rather plays the casual games on her iphone because they are simple.

when she watches me playing, she is at times impressed how beautiful the women look. like lara, faith, etc. but she is more impressed what they can do. so i tease her asking her to do this stuff, and her reply is, she wishes she can do this. and it does give her some inspiration to be tougher.
so obviously it does make some impression on women to be more feisty in real life. lara for sure is one since she is not a typical city slicker.

Very nice that your wife can at least appreciate female gaming characters. And if she can't match their physical capabilities, maybe you can get her to at least cosplay as some of them ;) :naughty:

[mugenkb1]

On the same note as Metalrocks, when I was playing RE5, and my cousin who is a generation older than I am was watching me play, and she commented that it's amazing how Sheva can run in heels..with guns.

I don't understand why some of them media people love to make a fuss about females being too attractive in games. I mean, really? Do they not see that the males in games are also like very well built with a body that is very cut? I mean, why aren't people complaining about that? You never see an overweight dude with a beer belly as a main character, it's always some lean well built guy. And sometimes they are depicted without a shirt. Where's the uproar there?

[Andrashi]

And here I thought somebody hacked adobeARTIST's profile ^_^.

The video does present some questions worth thinking, however it kind of avoids the reason. Gaming started among electrotechnic engineers ("nerds"), who realized that those computing machines can be used not only to speed up solving second order differential equations, but also to have some fun. Hence why electronic entertainment used to be strongly male-oriented with occasional exceptions here and there. Titles like "Custer's revenge" or "Bachelor party" clearly document this. Not talking about tons and tons of japanese ren'ai games.One must realize (and I know it first-hand), that being clasified as a "nerd" can bring a nice income to pocket, but is not the most appealing social status. So there goes any chance to have a mutually emotional relationship with women which are recognized as visually attractive. It ends to be emotional only from one side (guess which one), while other side stays strictly for material reasons. And it does not end well.
However, since electronic entertainment started outgrowing its old boundaries and expanded to broader audience, this strong male-orientation became a burden as nowadays business needs titles which can be played by anyone regardless of the age or gender (more human beings interested = more $$$).


Having written that, the video talks about and shows pictures:

from titles which are definitely focused at teenage or "ronery" male audience (DoA:Extreme)


from fighting games (talking from experience, while some women do enjoy playing Tekken 3, most of them don't and it is not because Williams sisters are quite sexualized)


of carefully picked characters form games which (this picked character aside) present a nice story with a gameplay...and yes, also with this character (Shadee from PoP:WW)



P.S: I wonder why the Tenchu series and Ayame character is not mentioned in the video...maybe this is why ^_^:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxWLGU5MukQ

[adobeARTIST]

And here I thought somebody hacked adobeARTIST's profile ^_^.


:lol::lol::lol:

Yeahhhh. I was starting out with a title that mocked the kind of attitude the very video is talking about, but just couldn't resist turning it into something cheeky. Then I thought something outrageous would be a real attention catcher, but I hoped people caught my whimsical sarcasm :p:p

[Metalrocks]

Very nice that your wife can at least appreciate female gaming characters. And if she can't match their physical capabilities, maybe you can get her to at least cosplay as some of them ;) :naughty:

she is slim and i do try get her more fitter but she gives up very quickly. she clearly doesnt like a little pain or do something physically to make her feel better. she tries at least, so i guess thats good enough for her standards. :rolleyes: (she is at times sooooo lazy). even her mother tries to get her fitter, so i have some support :D

of course my wife gets a bit upset when i look at these females, thinks i will leave her because she doesnt look or behave like them in the games or movies. so i tell her she has to do something really bad for me to leave her. lol.
if her personality woulndt be nice or not trustworthy, i of course would have never married her.

would be nice of course if she would be like lara croft. just being strong willed and doesnt cry out if some dirt is on the floor. but at least she is not stupid and i can trust her.

but i keep telling her that the new tomb raider will come and she should play it and that she wants to be like lara after that :lol::p .
yeah, right, like its gonna happen.

[JRod108]

He didn't mention one point he could have made. The male models in some games. How some of them, such as Master Chief, Marcus Fenix and others come off as meat heads and don't provide much of a way to relate to these characters as women. Now, I was a huge Halo fan, and I'm a girl. But, I think that had more to do with the fact that my dad and I used Halo Co-op as a nice way to spend some time together when I was like nine or so. (The rents didn't think blue, purple and orange alien blood as well as the language, that doesn't really measure up to some of the stuff I could have accidentally come across on tv, would turn me into a serial killer. :lol:)

I play games for their plot, characters and gameplay. All of them need to be good in order for me to really get into them. Yeah, over-sexualized female models do turn me off from those games, but so does Marcus Fenix. What does Gears of War really bring to me as a game? An overdone alien invasion plot, an overdone strong, manly, GRRR type main character, and the shooting gameplay that I can get a dime a dozen. I'm not interested in that. I already got much of that in Halo, no need for a repeat.

Then marketing sometimes completely misses its mark and nearly makes me miss out on a great game. Mass Effect. Once again, an overdone, strong, manly space marine, commercials that didn't do its story any justice whatsoever and because of the two mentioned points above, two out of three sort of turned me off, so I didn't research much of the gameplay. It was my guy friends that made me interested in this game. They talked about fully voiced lines in an action RPG, a fantastic story, and just as I was telling them that I might look into this game, they revealed the game changer: Femshep.

You could play a female version of the overdone, strong, manly space marine, but the female version is not overdone at all. Then, they said she was voiced by Jennifer Hale. Who, as we all should know, did a fantastic job at voicing Bastila Shan in one of my favorite video games of all time and who largely avoided nearly all the female stereotypes in gaming. Suddenly, I was like: :eek: "I have to get this game."

I think it's just the characters in video games overall that can entice or alienate female gamers. Take, for instance, another male lead in a video game. Ezio Auditore. The gameplay and violence is probably the reason it would turn many casual female gamers off this game, because otherwise, it features a stimulating plot and a hot, manly womanizer with a sexy Italian accent. Personally, Ezio has taken the title of my video game boyfriend. Male gamers think Ezio is cool, female gamers would think he's cool and hot, so he appeals to both sexes in the industry without actively making him into a sex symbol. He's just there, his character markets itself.

A woman's looks aren't necessarily going to turn off a female gamer. Women can appreciate other women's attributes without thinking, "That's totally gay," like some heterosexual males are wont to do when others mention that say, Ezio looks nice. A female character that looks nice isn't going to scare us away. What turns us off is if the character is obviously either being taken advantage of or an obvious fanservice to male gamers because she's running around practically naked in a video game.

Lara can fit both categories, and I think that's where the confusion stems from for women that don't see her as we do. In her marketing, she tends to be over sexualized. Her outfits in Legend were either nice and something I would wear, or something that was very sex-symbolish. It seems that whoever has her, whether CORE or CD can't seem to decide what role they want her to play in the industry. What is she, a sexy, attractive woman, or a strong, independent female lead? Who are they trying to appeal to? Just male gamers? Or female and male gamers with the latter? Hopefully, with this reboot, CD will have caught onto the fact that she can be both a sexy, attractive woman and a strong, independent female lead.

They don't need to make her run around in skimpy outfits, yet they also don't need to have her dress ultra-conservative (IE, the bikini vs the business suit in Legend) to make her an icon. They can straddle the line here. Dress her in clothes that women would like to wear, because we like to dress in clothes that compliment our looks after all. It's highly likely that this hypothetical outfit will appeal to both sexes. Women aren't hypersensitive to looking nice.

In short, the industry needs to look at how they market both male and female characters in their games. If they want to include women in their games, get away from both of the stereotypes that male and female characters have and create one that both genders can enjoy. Or, do like Mass Effect and make an avatar for both genders. I don't think this is just about how women are portrayed, games just need to make the move into actual, relateable characters as a whole rather than a few great examples of memorable characters.

[Darkwoodsoftime]

would be nice of course if she would be like lara croft. just being strong willed and doesnt cry out if some dirt is on the floor. but at least she is not stupid and i can trust her.
you Sure you don't want anything else ?! your wife to be Lara Croft ?! :D

anyways , im Not sure but i really liked the facts he pointed out . and i agree with most of em but idunno bout my sister :D for Example My Sister always Plays with me in COOP games :D we play Saints Row , RE5 , Mortal Kombat , Army of two , Gears of war . and she Loves Hack n Slash Games like God of war , Ninja Gaiden (she finished castlevania : Lord of shadows 3 times :lol i never could) but she hates Lara Croft :| she says Lara's Unrealistic and Always points out her boobs are fake :lol: but hopefully she Likes the New tomb raider , so she doesn't argue with me anymore :D


After all, I could go get my nails done or put on a skirt, but I'm not going to, because I don't want to, not because it's something that a women might do

please don't xD ever !

[Metalrocks]

good points regarding male characters.
i personaly dont like it either if they are over muscular as we see in the RE games for e.g. you know not every man looks like this.
if they look normal build and have a personality you can refere to more or less like adam jason from deus ex HR, then im happy with that. im pretty sure he looks for women cute, handsome or what ever.

the same with max payne. he looks very simple build. in part 3 he does looks a bit fatter and wasted but still manages to safe the day. lol.
if he is good looking for women, this i honestly dont know. to me at least he looks alright and not the typical muscular hero.

ezio for sure looks handsome for women. you can see that he was ment for female players as well. but he is dressed up all the time so as the female assassins. :thumb:
he also is not over muscular looking. just simple build but believable to perform all these jumps, kills, etc.
i personally like AC games because i like the plot of the games. the historical accuracy and for using actual characters from that time and that you can interact with them.
and yes, i do enjoy the pretty realistic swords fights which are very violent.

@darkwood
read your post now.
lol. my wife is asian. so that would be a bit weird, but still want her to behave like her :nut:

lol, sounds like your sister likes this stuff. my wife complains about the violence in my games. at times she said its too violent and stops watching me. especially in max payne 3, which is very violent.

[Elliot Kane]

Almost all heroes & heroines in games are basically fantasy figures built to an idealised standard. The guys are hugely muscled Adonises, the girls are feisty Aphrodites. Realism is not so much out to lunch for an hour or two as permanently unemployed.

We humans like a certain aesthetic in our representations of other humans, and that representation amounts to a cultural idea of the 'perfect' person to fill the role we intend for them.

A hero/ine who LOOKS like a hero/ine will be more easily accepted by the majority of people than one who does not. They are the mythological deities of the modern world; perfect in form and function and surely more than mortal.

So Lara is the Artemis of computer gaming; the beautiful and deadly Huntress who can bring down any prey, yet remains both feminine and eminently female.

[dark7angel]

Almost all heroes & heroines in games are basically fantasy figures built to an idealised standard. The guys are hugely muscled Adonises, the girls are feisty Aphrodites. Realism is not so much out to lunch for an hour or two as permanently unemployed.

We humans like a certain aesthetic in our representations of other humans, and that representation amounts to a cultural idea of the 'perfect' person to fill the role we intend for them.

A hero/ine who LOOKS like a hero/ine will be more easily accepted by the majority of people than one who does not. They are the mythological deities of the modern world; perfect in form and function and surely more than mortal.

So Lara is the Artemis of computer gaming; the beautiful and deadly Huntress who can bring down any prey, yet remains both feminine and eminently female.

And the quotable Kane strikes again!!! Totally agree with you!

And I really love your comparison to mythological characters! :thumb:

[Elliot Kane]

Thanks, DA :)

[Driber]

@OP (and all other members): The staff would appreciate if everyone embeds YT videos instead of linking to the YT page with the video whenever possible on these forums.

As some of you may know, the typical YT video comments are not exactly PG and sometimes downright disgusting. One quick scroll down the page that the OP linked to showed me a post about masturbation.

I'm sure I don't have to explain why we want to prevent our users from being exposed to such content.

So please use the [ YOUTUBE ] embed code instead of directly linking to YT. I edited the OP.

Thanks.

[Malaksbane]

... The male models in some games. How some of them, such as Master Chief, Marcus Fenix and others come off as meat heads and don't provide much of a way to relate to these characters as women. ....

Some, many actually, of the male models in games look so much like gorilla's that even for me as a male they don't offer much to relate to.

[Andy64]

The answer to why more women don't play video games is much more simple than that. Gaming has been considered traditionally as a male hobby and though that is shifting the growth of gaming is still at a much earlier phase for women than for men. Over the next 5 or 10 more women will start gaming and that extremely unbalanced cross section of gamers will start to correct. It won't level out totally as men are genetically programmed to be competitive (not to say all women aren't) and video games are very much designed to target that aspect of male psycology.

When it comes to sex appeal myself I wouldn't buy a game just because the girl in it was sexy but I would be FAR more likely to buy it against same genre games with male or less sexy female characters. It may superficial but it honestly would impact my choice. When I play Resi 5 you can bet 100% of the time I play as Sheva and I always play as the sexiest female in any game where the choice is there. The development of a video game industry is just a mirror of modern day celebrity where so much focus is on the very attractive woman.

Too much sex appeal can be bad though and video game characters running around in outfits that leave nothing to the imagination is rather trashy. That why I like Lara as she combines such sexyness but keeps such a tasteful take on it. Lara has probably been the character that has done more than any other to get more women into playing games so all this idea that she represents a male dominated market isn't so true. I think her sexyness is amazing and the Japan dress was so WOW!! Cowaring out to PC and desexualising her I find a complete disgrace and a total rejection of she stands for. Sex appeal can be such a positive for a series and the sooner CD snap out of this garbage view that all sex appeal = bad the better.

[adobeARTIST]

Then marketing sometimes completely misses its mark and nearly makes me miss out on a great game. Mass Effect. Once again, an overdone, strong, manly space marine, commercials that didn't do its story any justice whatsoever and because of the two mentioned points above, two out of three sort of turned me off, so I didn't research much of the gameplay. It was my guy friends that made me interested in this game. They talked about fully voiced lines in an action RPG, a fantastic story, and just as I was telling them that I might look into this game, they revealed the game changer: Femshep.

You could play a female version of the overdone, strong, manly space marine, but the female version is not overdone at all. Then, they said she was voiced by Jennifer Hale. Who, as we all should know, did a fantastic job at voicing Bastila Shan in one of my favorite video games of all time and who largely avoided nearly all the female stereotypes in gaming. Suddenly, I was like: :eek: "I have to get this game."


:eek: Wow I didn't realize that Jennifer Hale was Bastila from KOTOR, which was my favourite RPG of last generation.

It's also kind of funny how you mention Mass Effect's marketing. I hear so much misconception on other forums where people claim it isn't an RPG and see it as "just another shooter" and lump it along side Gears of War. They seem to miss the character building, class customization, quest management, and most importantly the core of the gaming experience which is driven by the player to define his/her character and engage the story through their choices and social interactions.



Lara can fit both categories, and I think that's where the confusion stems from for women that don't see her as we do. In her marketing, she tends to be over sexualized. Her outfits in Legend were either nice and something I would wear, or something that was very sex-symbolish. It seems that whoever has her, whether CORE or CD can't seem to decide what role they want her to play in the industry. What is she, a sexy, attractive woman, or a strong, independent female lead? Who are they trying to appeal to? Just male gamers? Or female and male gamers with the latter? Hopefully, with this reboot, CD will have caught onto the fact that she can be both a sexy, attractive woman and a strong, independent female lead.

They don't need to make her run around in skimpy outfits, yet they also don't need to have her dress ultra-conservative (IE, the bikini vs the business suit in Legend) to make her an icon. They can straddle the line here. Dress her in clothes that women would like to wear, because we like to dress in clothes that compliment our looks after all. It's highly likely that this hypothetical outfit will appeal to both sexes. Women aren't hypersensitive to looking nice.



This is what I always say. That sexiness and intelligence (among other higher qualities like strength, courage, determination, etc...) aren't mutually exclusive. There is no reason a woman can't be both beautiful and powerful, nor that being sexy should compromise her other qualities.

And Lara has always exemplified this. She didn't have to settle for one or the other, and always pulled off that sexiness with class :)


Too much sex appeal can be bad though and video game characters running around in outfits that leave nothing to the imagination is rather trashy. That why I like Lara as she combines such sexyness but keeps such a tasteful take on it. Lara has probably been the character that has done more than any other to get more women into playing games so all this idea that she represents a male dominated market isn't so true. I think her sexyness is amazing and the Japan dress was so WOW!! Cowaring out to PC and desexualising her I find a complete disgrace and a total rejection of she stands for. Sex appeal can be such a positive for a series and the sooner CD snap out of this garbage view that all sex appeal = bad the better.

Ohhhhh tell me about it. The Tokyo dress will always be my favourite outfit, along side what she wore at the Opera House. Plus it was such a refreshing change to see her let her hair down :)

But it seems that the trends in female sexualization also caused a backlash where it has become so demonized, and frankly I am tired of that. Yeah it can get out of hand, but that doesn't mean we should dismiss it altogether. Rather a better balance needs to be found. Like it's been pointed out, all fictional characters are modelled after social ideals (men and women equally) and honestly, there's nothing wrong with appreciating a womans beauty, if you give equal attention to her other traits as well.

@Driber: sorry about the linkage. :o I rarely ever look at Youtube comments and nver considered that. Though truthfully, I'm more used to other forums (like gamespot) which doesn't allow imbedding, so it's not usually my first inclination.

[Jurre]

Now obviously her clothes in the Tomb Raider game that is currently being developed are not as revealing as they used to be in previous games, but I believe that is not so much because the core principle of the new direction was to desexualise her, but to make her more vulnerable. You see, I believe we instinctively associate classy female beauty/sexyness with power. In the primeval monkeytribe where our genetic basis was formed it was the sexualy attractive females who got the closest to the dominant male and thus became powerful themselves. Even though Lara is being powerful in the male sense (with force and violence) I believe showing up in a revealing dress to a Japanese crimelord and his gang shows that she is fearless and in total control of the situation - she doesn't need the protection of a nuns habit.
Now that was the demi-goddess Lara from Legend, but this is the insecure, inexperienced Lara from the new game. She still needs to grow and has yet to shed her armour. To let her show up on this Island already in hotpants I think would not convey that message correctly. And to let her have comicly large breasts while being subjected to all that pain and suffering and being pushed to her limits to survive I think would be as inappropriate as a pie in the face gag during a talking scene in The Gotfather.
Now I don't know how exactly the game is going to show us the transformation process from the young girl into the battle hardened adventurer, but I believe a good visual way of telling that would be to have her rip off her long trouserlegs towards the end, thereby creating the iconic hotpants and letting us know that the Lara we know has been born.

By the way adobeARTIST, I haven't watched the video yet, but I have seen one that deals with the exact same topic that was made by moviebob, the film reviewer from The Escapist. I'll look it up tomorrow.

[Metalrocks]

Now obviously her clothes in the Tomb Raider game that is currently being developed are not as revealing as they used to be in previous games, but I believe that is not so much because the core principle of the new direction was to desexualise her, but to make her more vulnerable. You see, I believe we instinctively associate classy female beauty/sexyness with power. In the primeval monkeytribe where our genetic basis was formed it was the sexualy attractive females who got the closest to the dominant male and thus became powerful themselves. Even though Lara is being powerful in the male sense (with force and violence) I believe showing up in a revealing dress to a Japanese crimelord and his gang shows that she is fearless and in total control of the situation - she doesn't need the protection of a nuns habit.
Now that was the demi-goddess Lara from Legend, but this is the insecure, inexperienced Lara from the new game. She still needs to grow and has yet to shed her armour. To let her show up on this Island already in hotpants I think would not convey that message correctly. And to let her have comicly large breasts while being subjected to all that pain and suffering and being pushed to her limits to survive I think would be as inappropriate as a pie in the face gag during a talking scene in The Gotfather.
Now I don't know how exactly the game is going to show us the transformation process from the young girl into the battle hardened adventurer, but I believe a good visual way of telling that would be to have her rip off her long trouserlegs towards the end, thereby creating the iconic hotpants and letting us know that the Lara we know has been born.

By the way adobeARTIST, I haven't watched the video yet, but I have seen one that deals with the exact same topic that was made by moviebob, the film reviewer from The Escapist. I'll look it up tomorrow.

i guess you mean this one :
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/4719-Gender-Games

(have no idea how to embed this video)

[Jurre]

Yes that's the one

[TRPhasetastic]

Lara looked so fantastic before and the Japan dress just shows how Lara could carry off a look that hardly any video game females could. They had it so perfect with Legend and now they are going speeding down a motorway just completely in the wrong direction. Her style set her apart and hate how the new look makes her so average. Bring back her fashion sense.

[muons]

So Lara is the Artemis of computer gaming; the beautiful and deadly Huntress who can bring down any prey, yet remains both feminine and eminently female.

Wow. That basically summed up all of my thoughts on Lara. To be honest, when playing the TR games (so far Legend and Underworld) I've always had this tremendous respect for her as a heroine, role model and badass explorer. She, like Artemis, is independent, strong, athletic, and intelligent.


Then marketing sometimes completely misses its mark and nearly makes me miss out on a great game. Mass Effect. Once again, an overdone, strong, manly space marine, commercials that didn't do its story any justice whatsoever and because of the two mentioned points above, two out of three sort of turned me off, so I didn't research much of the gameplay. It was my guy friends that made me interested in this game. They talked about fully voiced lines in an action RPG, a fantastic story, and just as I was telling them that I might look into this game, they revealed the game changer: Femshep.

You could play a female version of the overdone, strong, manly space marine, but the female version is not overdone at all. Then, they said she was voiced by Jennifer Hale. Who, as we all should know, did a fantastic job at voicing Bastila Shan in one of my favorite video games of all time and who largely avoided nearly all the female stereotypes in gaming. Suddenly, I was like: :eek: "I have to get this game."



I absolutely agree, I played as Femshep throughout all three Mass Effect games and I also imported the character through each game. Jennifer Hale's voice acting is superb for Paragon/Renegade mix or pure Renegade. Commander Shepard (male or female) is a "bloody icon" known throughout the galaxy as a legendary warrior and hero of the galaxy, and it comes through no matter which gender you play, which is really refreshing.

[Triangle3]

She looked so good before and they have gone far too overboard on the desexulalisation thing. Hope we get something of a reverse for the next game.

[LadyRufina]

She looked so good before and they have gone far too overboard on the desexulalisation thing. Hope we get something of a reverse for the next game.

She looked like one of those plastic beings off of The Real Housewives of Orange County before. She looks like an actual human now.

[Metalrocks]

what rufina says.
lara looked like a barbie doll in the previous games. especially in underworld.

[dark7angel]

what rufina says.
lara looked like a barbie doll in the previous games. especially in underworld.

Totally agree!!! :thumb:
Now she actually looks like a human!

[Metalrocks]

Totally agree!!! :thumb:
Now she actually looks like a human!

yes, she looks so much believable now. :thumb:

[GemmaDarkmoon]

I thought her look in Legend and Anniversary was best with her being sexy but not with that being overwhelming to other aspects. The Japan dress isquite gorgeous and I can see why the guy I know who play TR all love that one.

With those guys who do say that they like to see gaming females be oversexualized is that they are looking at the girl and thinking 'would I want to go out with her?' or is the badass chick element or the bravado. I don't know and I'm just kind of curious

[Laras_Justice]

I think she looks much more real now, she had very small hips in underworld and legend - it was like a barbie. I agree

[mrskurtistrent]

I admit, I was kinda surprised when I went on Youtube and found a girl gamer talking about Silent Hill 2 and its enemies. And not that I didn't think there were any girl gamers, but a lot of my friends aren't really the gamer types. So I commented, and I was very excited and said I was glad to see there are girl gamers out there. And this lady (atleast I think it was) commented back and told me about more girl gamers and I was really embarrassed :( I didn't mean to sound like there was no girl gamers, just that I now knew of one!

Anyway, I still love old Lara, but I do like how they made her boobs a bit smaller haha. Still love the old Lara though

[WinterSoldier]

I admit, I was kinda surprised when I went on Youtube and found a girl gamer talking about Silent Hill 2 and its enemies. And not that I didn't think there were any girl gamers, but a lot of my friends aren't really the gamer types. So I commented, and I was very excited and said I was glad to see there are girl gamers out there.

You mean CyborCat? Dude, she's great. I love her "Silent Hill" documentaries/retrospectives. You don't see many gamers (male OR female) dig that deep into games.

[Ivana KC]

Honestly, in this thread this is the first time I found out that someone thinks that Lara doesn't look good (when you say she looks lke Barbie, that's a bad thing for a character, IMO).

I think that everyone (male or female, doesn't matter) can objectively say if any person is sexy/beautiful or not. From my perspective, I think she was beautiful in previous games. Those were unreal, but perfect proportions (not just body, face too). Now she is more realistic, I like it, but her face seems too young, and I don't like that. Her body does look more realistic now, no doubt and I like the fact that her eyes are now somehow green.

I'm curious - what do male gamers think about Lara's previous look? Are you guys complaining because you are being objective or you simply don't like looking at perfect body while playing a game? That may be a stupid question, I know, but I still want to know. :D

[muons]

Woot! 1,000th post! Only took me... 3 years? Man, I feel like a slacker.

Congratulations! :D


I think that everyone (male or female, doesn't matter) can objectively say if any person is sexy/beautiful or not. From my perspective, I think she was beautiful in previous games. Those were unreal, but perfect proportions (not just body, face too). Now she is more realistic, I like it, but her face seems too young, and I don't like that. Her body does look more realistic now, no doubt and I like the fact that her eyes are now somehow green.

I'm curious - what do male gamers think about Lara's previous look? Are you guys complaining because you are being objective or you simply don't like looking at perfect body while playing a game? That may be a stupid question, I know, but I still want to know. :D


Maybe Lara's previous body is "too" perfect to the extent that it is harder to relate to her. Toning her down would make her seem more like an actual person with flaws, vulnerabilities, etc. and not a femme fatale like we have seen in previous TR games. Just my thoughts.

EDIT: May not have exactly answered your question, on second thought. I basically said why Crystal D might be changing Lara's look for the new 2013 Tomb Raider. :P

[Jurre]

I'm curious - what do male gamers think about Lara's previous look? Are you guys complaining because you are being objective or you simply don't like looking at perfect body while playing a game? That may be a stupid question, I know, but I still want to know. :D
In my opinion she looked cartoony in Legend & Anniversary but that fitted well within the cartoony look of the world she ran trough. When the grafics got more realistic in Underworld she suddenly looked very fake like a Barbie doll or someone with too much plastic sugery.
I think she lookes better than ever in this game though. Imagine the Japan dress on her with these grafics...

[Elliot Kane]

Honestly, in this thread this is the first time I found out that someone thinks that Lara doesn't look good (when you say she looks lke Barbie, that's a bad thing for a character, IMO).

I think that everyone (male or female, doesn't matter) can objectively say if any person is sexy/beautiful or not. From my perspective, I think she was beautiful in previous games. Those were unreal, but perfect proportions (not just body, face too). Now she is more realistic, I like it, but her face seems too young, and I don't like that. Her body does look more realistic now, no doubt and I like the fact that her eyes are now somehow green.

I'm curious - what do male gamers think about Lara's previous look? Are you guys complaining because you are being objective or you simply don't like looking at perfect body while playing a game? That may be a stupid question, I know, but I still want to know. :D

Game characters tend to be pretty exaggerated generally, so I'm fine with it. The only difference is if they are actually supposed to be real people, in which case they tend to look like the person (Well, within the limitations of the graphics).

I have no problems with Lara looking like Kelly Brook, any more than I have problems with male characters whose biceps are bigger than my thighs. Sure, it's unrealistic, but if it fits with the art style and the mood of the game, that won't trouble me.

I love Crossroads Trailer Lara. She is a beautiful young woman, and it's that model the new game should use. Gameplay trailer Lara looks like a teenager, not a twenty-something. That is a bad mistake, IMO. I've never yet seen a 21-year old who could pass for fourteen at a pinch.

So, on to the actual question: do I like Lara's old look? Yes. Do I mind if they change her a bit? Not at all. They've done it in every game so far, IIRC. Do I mind if she looks like a child when she's supposed to be an adult? Abso-flippin'-lutely!

[WinterSoldier]

I'm curious - what do male gamers think about Lara's previous look? Are you guys complaining because you are being objective or you simply don't like looking at perfect body while playing a game? That may be a stupid question, I know, but I still want to know. :D

Well, if we're talking the Core era first 5 games, I personaly think she looked disgusting. As unrealistic as she was proportioned was just... gross to me. I never understood why some guys would get all excited to see her swan dive into a pool or lake or whatever back then, and I still don't see why some guys still do to that particular incarnation now. Her body just didn't do anything for me. Wow. I never thought I'd say that about a woman. Hmm...

Anyways, I can't say as I, erm, got aroused by "Legend" Lara, but I finaly understood the attraction. She looked great, was the most realistic I'd seen her at that point, and had sharp wit to boot. My kind of gal. And I also found it interesting comparing the "Legend" render to the main menu of the first "TR". "Legend" is the closest Lara ever looked to what I can only assume to be her intended look. Facially, mind you.

I don't personaly have a problem w/ this new Lara render. I think she looks quite good. I haven't sat down and studied every inch of her (That's a 4th date thing. J/K. Sorry, I couldn't resist.), but I don't see anything that repulses me.

I didn't get into this series based on how she looks tho. I'm here for gameplay and good storytelling. Big fan of the sound design as well.

[adobeARTIST]

I'm curious - what do male gamers think about Lara's previous look? Are you guys complaining because you are being objective or you simply don't like looking at perfect body while playing a game? That may be a stupid question, I know, but I still want to know. :D

While I have enthusiastically praised the new Lara, yes I do still like Lara's old look. But to put it in proper context, it was good for it's time. But technology evolves and standards of character rendering & design changes. I think we all took Lara's old look for what it was back then because we had yet to see how much better it could be.

Now it can be argued that the Underworld Lara was realistic and I suppose she was. Yet it's flaw was being too perfect. This may sound contradictory. How can this be seen as a disadvntage? Yet how many human beings do we really see that are just that flawless? Rather than being realistic, the "too perfect" image made her also artificial. It's like Lara was manufactured than naturally born this way. The new Lara is not only realistic, but natural. Her presence comes across a truly living breathing human, and not an android made to look human.

Like I said, the previous Lara's were seen as fine for its day because we had yet to see her granted the full potential of human rendering and characterization. It's only after we've seen this realized, that we can see the flaws of what came before. Now it's hard to go back.

Actually let me clarify that, it's impossible to go back. I now refuse to accept outdated standards. Lara is not only a character of this generation, but an icon in the complete history of gaming. So she should always continue to reflect the times she lives in. Just as Batman and Spiderman does throughout their lifetimes.

But I want to turn things around from what IvanKC was asking, and get back to the core of the discussion, which the Extra Credits video had directed towards female gamers. It was talking about how the industry at large can make itself more inviting to female audiences and welcome them into the fold as gamers. While Lara was not specifically at the center of this, given her extensive presence she was quite prominently cited as an example.

So how do the female gamers here take Lara as an example of a female lead character in the media, from all renditions we have seen from the PS1 days to present? What kind of influence do you think she was, what was your reaction to her sexuality, and do you feel she was possibly more detrimental than inspiring?

[Elliot Kane]

Adobe,

But I want to turn things around from what IvanKC was asking, and get back to the core of the discussion, which was sparked by the Extra Credits video in the OP. It was talking about how the industry at large can make itself more inviting to female audiences and welcome them into the fold as gamers.

That one is actually easier than you'd think. While there is a taste overlap between male & female gamers, games are a bit like films. You won't find too many guys who love chick flicks or too many girls who love gung-ho action movies.

To encourage more female gamers, make games that suit the broad majority of females' tastes. Apparently The Sims is incredibly popular amongst female gamers, for example.

It's a bit like: if every film was basically Terminator, how many female filmgoers would you expect to see?

While Lara was not specifically at the center of this, given her extensive presence she was certainly pivotal.

So how do the female gamers take Lara as an example of a female lead character in the media, from all renditions we have seen from the PS1 days to present? What kind of influence do you think she was, and do you feel she was possibly more detrimental than inspiring?

This I can't really answer, except to note the large number of female gamers on these very forums. If Lara were not a positive influence, I suspect they would not be here :)

[pidipidi39]

Well, if we're talking the Core era first 5 games, I personaly think she looked disgusting. As unrealistic as she was proportioned was just... gross to me. I never understood why some guys would get all excited to see her swan dive into a pool or lake or whatever back then, and I still don't see why some guys still do to that particular incarnation now. Her body just didn't do anything for me. Wow. I never thought I'd say that about a woman. Hmm...

Anyways, I can't say as I, erm, got aroused by "Legend" Lara, but I finaly understood the attraction. She looked great, was the most realistic I'd seen her at that point, and had sharp wit to boot. My kind of gal. And I also found it interesting comparing the "Legend" render to the main menu of the first "TR". "Legend" is the closest Lara ever looked to what I can only assume to be her intended look. Facially, mind you.

I don't personaly have a problem w/ this new Lara render. I think she looks quite good. I haven't sat down and studied every inch of her (That's a 4th date thing. J/K. Sorry, I couldn't resist.), but I don't see anything that repulses me.

I didn't get into this series based on how she looks tho. I'm here for gameplay and good storytelling. Big fan of the sound design as well.

Same to me! :)

[Metalrocks]

the old lara dint do anything to me. her body just looked unreal so as her face. her lips looked like she had plastic surgery.

she looked better in legend. at least her body came a bit closer to reality, wile her face still looked a bit barbie like. still big lips though but a face i could look at.

in anniversary she looked a bit realer. her breasts werent too huge as before. her face also looked better to me. smaller lips for a change.

underworld, the body was alright but her face just looked like a barbie doll. amanda looked better to me then lara.

the new one. just perfect :thumb: . finally she looks real. not like a barbie doll that had plastic surgery. thats a woman i can look at and definitely would go out with, since she has more personallity :flowers:

the same i can say about cate archer from the NOLF games. in part 1, her face looked like from an alien. wile her body was the only nice thing to look at.
in part 2, she looked so much better. such a pretty face, wonderful to look at. i actually looked at her face more then her body.

[Ivana KC]

WinterSoldier, Elliot Kane and adobeARTIST, you guys agree with me? Game characters are supposed to look perfect/unreal when they do unreal things, right?


So how do the female gamers here take Lara as an example of a female lead character in the media, from all renditions we have seen from the PS1 days to present? What kind of influence do you think she was, what was your reaction to her sexuality, and do you feel she was possibly more detrimental than inspiring?

I think she is the one who inspires. She is a game character, fictional, unreal! She's not a real model so there is no pressure, at least, not for me. Actually, just the fact that she is a female is a plus, since we live in a patriarchal socitey.



the old lara dint do anything to me. her body just looked unreal so as her face. her lips looked like she had plastic surgery.

she looked better in legend. at least her body came a bit closer to reality, wile her face still looked a bit barbie like. still big lips though but a face i could look at.

in anniversary she looked a bit realer. her breasts werent too huge as before. her face also looked better to me. smaller lips for a change.

underworld, the body was alright but her face just looked like a barbie doll. amanda looked better to me then lara.

the new one. just perfect :thumb: . finally she looks real. not like a barbie doll that had plastic surgery. thats a woman i can look at and definitely would go out with, since she has more personallity :flowers:

the same i can say about cate archer from the NOLF games. in part 1, her face looked like from an alien. wile her body was the only nice thing to look at.
in part 2, she looked so much better. such a pretty face, wonderful to look at. i actually looked at her face more then her body.


OK, so let's put it this way. Lara should be realistic although she does all those unrealistic stuff (monsters, climbing...)?
I wonder, have you ever played Duke Nukem or Metal Gear Solid? How in the world would Duke Nukem or Snake look like if they wouldn't have all those muscles? IMO, same thing is with Lara. If you take away her perfect beauty, the game looses its charm.

[Elliot Kane]

WinterSoldier, Elliot Kane and adobeARTIST, you guys agree with me? Game characters are supposed to look perfect/unreal when they do unreal things, right?

Pretty much, Ivana, yes.

There may well be game characters out there who are not walking clichés but I don't recall seeing them.

Heroes are handsome, heroines are beautiful, mad inventors are skinny and speak strangely, warriors are always massive steroid abusers when male and far too slender to even lift the massive swords they wield so expertly when female...

That's just games :)

[WinterSoldier]

WinterSoldier, Elliot Kane and adobeARTIST, you guys agree with me? Game characters are supposed to look perfect/unreal when they do unreal things, right?


Yeah, absolutely. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bit of realism, but at the end of the day video games are about escapism and things being 10 times bigger and bolder then they are in the real world (well, most of the ones I play, anyways). A certain degree of suspension of belief is required to enjoy them. Otherwise you'd just be sitting there going: "Hang ON! There is NO WAY that dude can do THAT without messing up his hair!" (I'm talking about YOU, Leon Kennedy). If things in video games weren't un-realistic, what'd be the point of them?

Look at the FF series. Not only are those males and females perfectly fit and handsome and pretty, but have you seen their weapons? No way ANYONE could weild one of those. But they make for nice visuals to some eyes.

[LadyRufina]

I love Crossroads Trailer Lara. She is a beautiful young woman, and it's that model the new game should use. Gameplay trailer Lara looks like a teenager, not a twenty-something. That is a bad mistake, IMO. I've never yet seen a 21-year old who could pass for fourteen at a pinch.


I'm 22 and could easily pass for 14, seriously. That said I don't think the new Lara looks 14 at all. Her features are way too defined for a 14 year old. I think she looks bang on 21, maybe a little younger.

[Metalrocks]

OK, so let's put it this way. Lara should be realistic although she does all those unrealistic stuff (monsters, climbing...)?
I wonder, have you ever played Duke Nukem or Metal Gear Solid? How in the world would Duke Nukem or Snake look like if they wouldn't have all those muscles? IMO, same thing is with Lara. If you take away her perfect beauty, the game looses its charm.

lol, i think you took me here a bit too serious. :lol: .
i know its a game and that she is fictional. still no harm in looking realistic but can do unrealistic stuff.

of course i have played duke nukem....3D. we just know duke that muscular but i also would be fine if he just looks fit. would not lose its charm to me. but you do have these muscular people around. a friend of mine looks almost like him.
never played metal gear because this game never came out for the pc. but i know what you mean.

[Ivana KC]

Pretty much, Ivana, yes.

There may well be game characters out there who are not walking clichés but I don't recall seeing them.

Heroes are handsome, heroines are beautiful, mad inventors are skinny and speak strangely, warriors are always massive steroid abusers when male and far too slender to even lift the massive swords they wield so expertly when female...

That's just games :)

Exactly! Although, I don't mind if enemies are handsome too. :D

Yeah, absolutely. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bit of realism, but at the end of the day video games are about escapism and things being 10 times bigger and bolder then they are in the real world (well, most of the ones I play, anyways). A certain degree of suspension of belief is required to enjoy them. Otherwise you'd just be sitting there going: "Hang ON! There is NO WAY that dude can do THAT without messing up his hair!" (I'm talking about YOU, Leon Kennedy). If things in video games weren't un-realistic, what'd be the point of them?

Look at the FF series. Not only are those males and females perfectly fit and handsome and pretty, but have you seen their weapons? No way ANYONE could weild one of those. But they make for nice visuals to some eyes.

I agree with everything you said. If we want a real life, we just look around us, right? :D
And Final Fantasy heroes...my god, perfect hair in ANY occasion! :lol: But you have to admit that FF wouldn't be FF if there weren't massive swords.



never played metal gear because this game never came out for the pc. but i know what you mean.

I recall playing Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2 on my PC. :scratch: I suppose you meant on new games, they didn't come out for PC.

[Metalrocks]

I recall playing Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2 on my PC. :scratch: I suppose you meant on new games, they didn't come out for PC.

seriously?????:eek: i never ever saw 1 and 2 in any store. either in switzerland or in australia. and i really wanted them so badly. they only had it for consoles and every store told me it only came out for consoles, not for the pc. even when they chekced their system, they said they have nothing for the pc.
now its too late to get them. they are too old to run on todays systems :(

[Ivana KC]

seriously?????:eek: i never ever saw 1 and 2 in any store. either in switzerland or in australia. and i really wanted them so badly. they only had it for consoles and every store told me it only came out for consoles, not for the pc. even when they chekced their system, they said they have nothing for the pc.
now its too late to get them. they are too old to run on todays systems :(


Not yet! My borther managed to play Metal Gear on a PC we bought 3 years ago (we play it now, too). We also thought that the game is too old for a new system, but it's actually all about resolution of your screen. Let the game auto-ajdust and you could play without any problems.

Whoever told you that the game didn't come out for PC is very, VERY wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_%28video_game%29
Even wikipedia says PC MS-DOS under platforms.

[Elliot Kane]

If you have trouble with any game that ran on DOS, try DOSBox. Incredibly useful program - and free! :)

[GemmaDarkmoon]

So how do the female gamers here take Lara as an example of a female lead character in the media, from all renditions we have seen from the PS1 days to present? What kind of influence do you think she was, what was your reaction to her sexuality, and do you feel she was possibly more detrimental than inspiring?

I think Lara has been a real figure of strength and inspiration to women. I love how she got the whole of the gaming industry to re-evaluate womens role in gaming and so many female lead characters now are probably here because of Lara.

Her influence is incredibly positive and there is no way I would ever see it as detrimental. Her exadurated body shape I thought as something that was done for the guys but I never really minded. I am so used to seeing Lara like that I wouldn't say I really thought about it much for it's unrealistic nature and I just love the outfits she wears.

Just noticed this brings me up to 1000 posts - cool.

[adobeARTIST]

I think Lara has been a real figure of strength and inspiration to women. I love how she got the whole of the gaming industry to re-evaluate womens role in gaming and so many female lead characters now are probably here because of Lara.

Her influence is incredibly positive and there is no way I would ever see it as detrimental. Her exadurated body shape I thought as something that was done for the guys but I never really minded. I am so used to seeing Lara like that I wouldn't say I really thought about it much for it's unrealistic nature and I just love the outfits she wears.

Just noticed this brings me up to 1000 posts - cool.

Congrats on joining the 1K Union :D:thumb:

[Metalrocks]

Not yet! My borther managed to play Metal Gear on a PC we bought 3 years ago (we play it now, too). We also thought that the game is too old for a new system, but it's actually all about resolution of your screen. Let the game auto-ajdust and you could play without any problems.

Whoever told you that the game didn't come out for PC is very, VERY wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_%28video_game%29
Even wikipedia says PC MS-DOS under platforms.

i checked it on wikipedia as well and was surprised.
like i said. every store in switzerland and australia told me its not available for the pc. if its not in their system, its not available.
i also used to watch in switzerland a german gaming show called giga games and when they showed the game, it was also only for the console. never showed the pc version or said anything about the pc version.

but if you say it works on todays systems, then i think i get it over ebay but they are pretty pricy. one even asks for over 200 AUD :eek: for the first part. i can actually play dino crisis 1 on my pc without any problems.
i think i will get them once im back in australia.

i just hope the pc port is good. when i got my self the pc version of silent hill 2, i coulndt play it.
sound problems, graphic glitches and the saving dint work either. and it said even on the box that you can adjust the resolution up to 1600x..... . i coulndt go over 800x600.

@kane
i know this program. use it my self as well for some classic games. scum vm even for the MI games.

[Ivana KC]

but if you say it works on todays systems, then i think i get it over ebay but they are pretty pricy. one even asks for over 200 AUD :eek: for the first part. i can actually play dino crisis 1 on my pc without any problems.
i think i will get them once im back in australia.

i just hope the pc port is good. when i got my self the pc version of silent hill 2, i coulndt play it.
sound problems, graphic glitches and the saving dint work either. and it said even on the box that you can adjust the resolution up to 1600x..... . i coulndt go over 800x600.


I got used to problems with games and technology in general. The thing is, a game could work perfectly on my system, but it wouldn't run on yours. For example, if you know what Age of mythology is, I can tell you that it runs perfectly on my PC. I couldn't adjust it to the wide screen, so I let the game to auto-adjust the resolution and everything is fine now. Same with Metal Gear and any other old game.

Today's system could be quite unstable, so don't expect everything to work properly. And more importantly, don't spend money on something you're not sure will work.

[Metalrocks]

I got used to problems with games and technology in general. The thing is, a game could work perfectly on my system, but it wouldn't run on yours. For example, if you know what Age of mythology is, I can tell you that it runs perfectly on my PC. I couldn't adjust it to the wide screen, so I let the game to auto-adjust the resolution and everything is fine now. Same with Metal Gear and any other old game.

Today's system could be quite unstable, so don't expect everything to work properly. And more importantly, don't spend money on something you're not sure will work.

yeah, im aware of these problems. i have to see how much it will cost on ebay once im back in australia in october. found both games for 20 AUD each.
i know age of mythology . has been ages since i have played it.

thanks for the reply. :)