Creep and Run Modifying All Actions

[Hypevosa]

Had this idea a while ago, it's about time I got to making a thread about it. The idea is simple: the run key and the creep key modify all actions (not just movement) to make them faster/louder/brash or slower/quieter/controlled, respectively. The implications are rather far reaching though:

Opening doors/chests: The creep key will allow you to gradually open them as long as you hold down the frob key, making less noise and possibly allowing you to notice hazards (such as a chain leading from the lock to a gas mine in the base of a chest) so they can be avoided. The run key will throw things open, obviously being louder and faster, but could also make for situations like throwing a door open into a guard and knocking him back, or opening a chest fast enough to get the loot fast enough to avoid the guard in hot pursuit.

Looting items: The creep key will make for a slow grab that ensures you don't hit and move surrounding objects, such as trying to remove the silver plate stuck lodged in a pile of porcelain plates, or the single gold candlestick huddled in a group of wood ones on the shelf. If you don't have the time, the run key could allow you to remove paintings/tapestry from their frames instantly where you might otherwise risk being caught by a guard with a short patrol, but at the cost of their loot value since the edges are torn.

Throwing items: creep key would give them a low toss/gentle roll, such as rolling a scouting orb around a corner so it's not so easily noticed, while run would be a full powered overhand pitch like you might desire when throwing a rock at a burrick to ward it off.

Attacking with the sword: The creep key would allow for more deliberate well aimed strikes, allowing the player to regularly strike areas that are not/under armored to deal damage. The run key would allow for faster though less accurate attacks - something that will help to ward off an attacker and put them on their guard, but won't be terribly effective at killing them.

Leaning: Creep key would act the same as with opening doors, allowing for a gradual lean that stops progressing once you release the lean key. The run key would be a very quick lean with a side step, something that could be used to quickly dodge an arrow or even a blow from a hammer or sword.

Shooting a bow: Creep key would allow you to draw the bow slowly, releasing the attack key would stop you at that draw length and hitting it again would cause you to release the shot, making it so that speed with flat arc arrows like fire and gas can be more precisely controlled and allowing for well placed arced shots such as you might like if you're trying to gently place a noisemaker arrow on a ledge out of guards' reach. The run key would allow for an extremely quick draw that sacrifices aiming stability.

Approach to a locked object: creep key would allow you to try and probe it with the lockpick and give you a bit of time to react if you hear an unusual noise that might indicate a trap. The run key would have you using a dagger to shimmy or pry the object open (obviously won't work on everything). NOTE: this largely depends on if there's a lock picking minigame or if it's automatic.

I may be forgetting some things, but I think this is a pretty comprehensive list. The goal is to increase the player's ability to control their actions to maintain stealthiness or aid in escape, but make it so that we don't have to add dozens of buttons or key strokes in order to do it. Even combat would see some serious improvement with regards to depth given the run/creep effects on fighting and dodging.

[DarkDagger]

Good ideas. I'm always for making the game as free as possible. (And no not free price :) )

[jtr7]

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[minispace]

This reminds me of the High and Low Profile Stances from Assassin's Creed. If any of you taffers haven't played the game, your profile will contextually affect most actions that you can take inside the game, from blending in with crowds versus quickly sprinting from (or into) danger, or gently pushing someone out of your way, or violently shoving them.

We can assume that Thief 4 is going to be developed for consoles, and since gamepads have a limited number of buttons, then the devs may implement a system similar to the one you propose to best utilize limited button real estate.

I'm a PC Gamer, so as long as I can remap these functions to my mouse+keyboard, I'll be happy!

[Hypevosa]

I wouldn't want creep and run affecting the avatar's arms, just legs, unless the legs are locked (also don't want).

This reminds me of the High and Low Profile Stances from Assassin's Creed. If any of you taffers haven't played the game, your profile will contextually affect most actions that you can take inside the game, from blending in with crowds versus quickly sprinting from (or into) danger, or gently pushing someone out of your way, or violently shoving them.

We can assume that Thief 4 is going to be developed for consoles, and since gamepads have a limited number of buttons, then the devs may implement a system similar to the one you propose to best utilize limited button real estate.

I'm a PC Gamer, so as long as I can remap these functions to my mouse+keyboard, I'll be happy!

Well, why? Why is it a good thing to have 2 dozen mapped keys when you can offer the same utility in far fewer keystrokes? (ignoring hotkeyed items that is) I'm also pc gaming again since I finally found a decent rig I could afford, but that doesn't mean that a game that utilizes every single key on the board for something other than typing would be a good thing >_>

Honestly I wasn't even thinking of AC long ago when this came to mind - it just seemed to be a logical and easy way to give people exacting precision and control over how they approach things without making it needlessly complicated.

[minispace]

I wasn't disagreeing with you. Your proposal is sound and makes perfect sense for a game-pad, where buttons are limited. Most controllers are pretty ergonomic, so you can hold down a button forever without straining something. I would bet that a system like yours is used for Thief 4, if you play with a pad. It might work just as well on a keyboard--I don't think I've played a game with that system via mouse+keyboard, so I can not say for certain.

I can think of some issues that I'm not sure I like. First off, I'm not sure Thief 4 really needs a creep key. Creep should be the default. Are you equating the crouch key with a creep key? I've grown to hate playing through stealth games (I'm looking at you, Oblivion and Fallout!) with my pinky on the crouch key and a dwarf's-eye-view of everything in order to move around undetected. I hope they find a better way to implement stealth than that. Crouch should be for situational uses only, as in Thief 1-DS.

It might work better to just use a single "run", or "high profile", or "aggressive" key to modify actions, such as running vs walking or throwing vs placing an item. But that means you might have to press two keys instead of one for a lot of actions, or that you might have to keep a finger pressed for a long time on the modifier key. On the other hand, the focus of Thief is stealth, so if you're playing the game right :rasp:, you'll only use non-stealthy actions sparingly.

tl;dr: It might work really well, or it might give me carpal tunnel.

[jtr7]

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[Hypevosa]

JTR is right mini, creep is definitely too slow a pace for normal play. Creep is basically tiptoeing to avoid making as much sound as you possibly can, where normal walking is meant to just be slightly quieter than a normal pace.

The way I imagine things is largely the player plays with no modifiers, and then is just adding them when they want. I imagine the average player won't be using either key 80% of the time since normal pace and interaction are really fine for most situations. The creep key and run key modification are more for those unusual extremes anyways - such as when you're either surrounded and need to make as little noise as possible or when you are so completely and utterly alone enough to destroy all the china in the kitchen without attracting attention. Carpal tunnel wouldn't really be an issue since it's not like you need either key for any large portion of the game and won't be switching constantly between them.

The only time that it may be difficult (and I think it's a good thing here) is during combat itself. If you're fighting someone and intend to make good use of dodging and yet still are trying to kill the guard, you will need to be switching between the run key and the creep key fairly often.

JTR, gamepads really don't cut out tons of fine control. Sure, there is rarely room to have more than 4 hotkeys, and the looking is not as precise as it can be with a mouse, but they have more than enough buttons to accomplish the normal demands a game has so long as someone takes the time and effort to map them out intelligently.

As you can see, if you were holding down the run key when you frobbed that door, you'd be able to slam it open immediately if someone was in hot pursuit and continue running. Naturally, if you're going to crack a door open and do things slowly you'll stop in front of it anyways, will you not? That would be the time to hit the creep key and slowly open the door so you can look inside.

If you can think of any situations where it is advantageous to the player and Garrett should be able to perform both a run and creep function, I can try to fix that. At least I think that's what you're worried about?

[DJ Riff]

I think mouse wheel and universal grab function is better than using several keys simultaneously. BTW, I rarely use run or creep modifiers at all. Usually I use Caps Lock for run/walk toggle or a gamepad's analog stick for movement. Are there keyboards with built-in analog sticks yet?

[jtr7]

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[AlexOfSpades]

I loved this idea, certainly one of the best in the forums so far.

Wish i had more to add but my appreciation!

[DJ Riff]

A do-it-yourself kit for bolting a keyboard and analog stick together is probably out there. :pI thought about it and even disassembled a gamepad to see if it can be done easily. Well, It'll take much more taffing about then I thought, at least to make it really comfortable to use, so I'll consider making it only after I finish cyrillic fonts for TDM and Tafferpatcher for TG.

[Nightwynd]

Hello folks,

Still no news, eh?

Just checked in to say that I'm liking Hype's idea in the op. :thumb:
And as the argument of Thief vs. AC goes on, I'd like to point out that in this case the high/low profile reference is not so bad.

As Hype pointed out (at some point): having fewer controls vs. having hotkeyed one's whole qwerty is actually more usable. Fewer things to remember (considering the average working memory capacity) and thus a ton more practical.
It's not solely the cause of or due to the limitations on console controllers, but it's much more easier to use.

I'm guessing the dev's are going with the current trends in terms of usability and trying to make the UI as usable as the can. So to sum up. The idea proposed is good, it's modern and it's not very far-fetched.

Generalization regarding Thief:
We could have the "low profile" equivalent to "creep",
"default/normal profile" to default actions,
"high profile" for running, quick actions and combat etc.

Keep it up, guys.

[Tryst]

I also hate games that force you to remain crouched to stay quiet. I didn't get the nickname of 'mouse' for my love of cheese alone, it was mainly due to my ability to move very quickly yet quietly. A full speed run up a flight of carpeted wooden stairs and hardly make a sound, jogging speed on flat surfaces with hardly any noise and so on. Anyone who works in security needs to know how to move quietly but quickly to watch an intruder and remain undetected until backup (police) arrive. We don't all walk around in hobnail boots like the guards in Thief.

Why can't it be done in games? It only requires a stealth toggle. Maybe you can't move as fast in stealth as you would normally, you can jog instead of run but it's still faster than walking or crouching.

Expanding on the ideas Hypevosa put across, running from a guard can be done normally but as you go around a corner, you switch to stealth which slows you down a bit but silences your footsteps. The guard thinks you've stopped since he can't hear your footsteps and are now hiding so that's where he searches, not realising you've continued stealthily into the next room. As long as he doesn't see you go into the next room, he won't continue to chase you.

[Hypevosa]

I too can make 0 noise while moving at a good clip, but the point in games is that there's a trade off, or else there's no point to having the difference between them. If you could creep sprint somewhere, there wouldn't be a reason to not do that 100% of the time instead of sprinting loudly or walking loudly everywhere, and having an arbitrary endurance bar or something to limit it would just be an annoying solution at best. The current game mechanic is there to provide both choice and challenge by goading the player with the prospect of doing things more quickly, but allowing them more than enough rope to hang themselves when they sprint down a hall and get shot by a guard who heard them from the balcony.

I do like the idea of guards having a "last known" location for something like sound, so they'll search that area if they see no immediate evidence that you've moved elsewhere. I'm sure it's come up before (I'd be disappointed if it hadn't).

[AlexOfSpades]

Yeah, but for some reason Garrett always keeps these (http://carnival-shoes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/tap-dancing-shoes.jpg) on, so i suppose its an extra challenge for him when sneaking.

[Tryst]

The idea was the trade-off. Normal movement is running for most games. Creep running would still be slower but slightly faster than a walk. Crouched would still be the same as it is now for moving behind a low wall or object. Sprint running is faster than normal running but makes a lot more noise The two can be used in combination to get far enough from a guard to creep run into the next room before the guard sees you. The extra noise of sprinting would keep the guard on your tail rather than him giving up when you got too far ahead. This would allow for guards to be as fast at a normal run as you are and not have that stupid "stop because I'm out of breath" fiasco that TDS had to let you gain some distance. If you want to gain distance, use sprint.

I would think that you'd have to hold down a key to do it rather than have it as a toggle. That makes it too uncomfortable for a player to do it constantly, it would make your finger ache if you held it down all the time. Additionally, sprinting or even creep running around the city would attract the attention of the City Watch making it unwise to use all the time as well. I'd rather go back to the first two games where you can walk right past City watch and they'll ignore you unless you did something suspicious or got close enough for them to ID you since, you'd still have that keeper ability to hide in plain sight. Sprinting and creep running would be pretty suspicious and would get you noticed.

[Tryst]

Yeah, but for some reason Garrett always keeps these (http://carnival-shoes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/tap-dancing-shoes.jpg) on, so i suppose its an extra challenge for him when sneaking.

ROFL

And the guards all wear these http://www.gosullivan.com/hobnail.jpg