A DX:HR poll

[Silentbutdeadly]

Sorry for starting another DX thread in the Thief forums, but it's become apparent from the other three threads (now condensed to two) that there are several discrete groups having discussions about the game and I was wondering how many people fall into each category.

Not sure how much needs to actually be commented on in here since there are the other two threads where discussions are going on

Deus Ex is a revolution but will Thief steal the show (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=119945)
Optimistic (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=120813)

I've made it anonymous to avoid flaming in the other threads based on people's answers and I'll drop my own personal answer in after a few people have already voted to preserve my own anonymity - so - be honest pls guys :)

[Hypevosa]

Basically, if you put it on "give me deus ex" it plays like deus ex except you can have half your health regenerate. However, you're really lucky if you get in a fire fight and you don't die within 2 seconds.

The 3rd person camera is avoidable 95% of the time for those who bother to try and enjoy the game, instead of indulging in self righteous masochism and doing all the things that make the game go into 3rd person camera as often as they can.

No, it's not perfect, but it's a great game. It's about as close as we should expect a group that has creative impetus of its own to have gotten to making a clone of Deus Ex.

[Viktoria]

I voted "Played DX:HR, think there are some minor faults but still enjoy it". :)

[TheEddevilish]

DX:HR was the most fun I've had with a game in quite a while. I was also impressed with how much it felt like the original DX IMO. There were a few moments however where I thought "I could have done THAT in DX.", such as a high fence which had plenty of boxes around I could have stacked to jump over it - but I couldn't pick them up.

Another problem was how you were rewarded XP for hacking a system, but learning the right code/password and using that gave you no such reward. XP in general I thought could have been handled better, seeing as it ended up favouring certain methods of play when DX is about doing things the way you want. It's all very well giving extra XP for non-lethal takedowns and ghosting and all that, but it in effect punishes me for deciding to try to clear a room of enemies with only a vending machine (Because I can :)).

Those boss fights were utterly stupid, but everyone agrees with that and I just lowered the difficulty to get them done as quickly as possible.

Overall though, a damn good game, and a step in the right direction for the games industry. I don't expect to see games being just like DX or Thief or System Shock were in some instant 12 year backpedal after all.

[Platinumoxicity]

The 3rd person camera is avoidable 95% of the time for those who bother to try and enjoy the game, instead of indulging in self righteous masochism and doing all the things that make the game go into 3rd person camera as often as they can.

If the game becomes considerably easier when you refuse to use the cover system and manually hide behind things, it's not self-righteous masochism. It's a point proven.

[Hypevosa]

It doesn't. Really, they're both fairly balanced in that they have their moments where they shine and their moments where they don't.

With regards to sneaking, using the cover system allows you to actually see people, while not using it just means you use the radar (which gives less clues as to someone's next action than seeing them does). However, when actually moving between cover, not using the cover system is best since switching from cover to cover is a fast and loud action intended to avoid bullets during combat and will alert anyone watching, while doing it in first person is slower, quieter, and just less noticeable.

When it comes to combat, the cover system makes fire fights easier than trying to gauge things by radar and pop up at opportune times, and also allows the player to blind fire. First person lets you more quickly react to someone who has somehow gotten "behind" you, which is considerably harder to do while in cover.

Look at it this way - the cover system is explicitly designed for those who are interested in combat and fighting, and has some uses for those who are sneakers and vice versa. The game can play like gears of war if you want it to, or it can play like thief. It's kinda - you know - an RPG. So you play whatever role and game style you enjoy most.

The point of my comment is that there are people who clearly hate being in 3rd person, and switching back and forth constantly, and yet they seem to be trying to do absolutely 0 to mitigate something that annoys them so much. It would be like playing thief and never letting go of the damned sprint button but constantly being pissed off at how guards kept noticing you. Why ruin your own damned fun when you don't have to?

[jtr7]

Did not play because I cannot afford it at this time (serious financial difficulties), don't plan on buying it anyway until the patches are no longer coming out for it, cannot play it with current DRM, will not enjoy it for certain trendy additions that I need modded out or must avoid in gameplay choices.

[Caranfin]

Nothing is faultless. Still, it is one of the best games I've played in ages.

[Death24701]

I'm on the fence on whether or not it was atrocious or unenjoyable. When I think its atrocious another thought of mine thinks that I may just be overreacting. So I'll just list what I felt was wrong with the game.

1. The strange amount of cutscenes. Let it be known right now that I blame Square Enix for this. A game that makes unlikable characters and ludicrous storylines having (mostly boring) turn-based combat and annoying minigames has no business breathing the same air as Deus Ex Invisible War much less any other game in the series. Now, I'm not even sure if Square Enix had a hand in the games development so if I'm wrong then it isn't Square Enix's fault but there is still a lot of cutscenes. This wouldn't normally be a problem, however Adam "Monotonous Sorethroat" Jensen speaks in these cutscenes. The problem now is that in-game conversations have a bit of choice in them but the cutscenes rob you of this choice as Adam blunders obliviously into the most obvious tricks and traps I've ever seen. What kills me more about these cutscenes is that a good amount of them could easily have been done in the game engine and thus given us the choice I so desire, it doesn't make any sense that they were included at all in the game.

2. The boss fights that rob you of more choice. Is it possible to stealth past them? I wasn't sure about the fight with Barrett, I fed him grenades until he stopped moving, but there was a door nearby so I think I could have made it past him. Unfortunately, there came a time where I was ankle deep in coolant fleeing for my life spraying spastic homing rounds from a silenced combat rifle at a crazy sometimes-invisible chick that kept pulling a Typhoon on me I realized that I was probably being forced to fight these people. And that bites at me, I haven't played Deus Ex in a long time but I'm pretty sure I was able to just run by every boss I fought and lock the door behind me, this doesn't happen in Human Revolution.

3. Storyline. I saw every part of this story coming, the only half surprise was the AI (If you played the game you know what I mean) and if you do a sidequest involving a tunnel in a firewall and your past you can pretty much guess what somebody has to tell Adam when you finally meet them. I'd love to talk all about the storyline but I really don't want to spoil anything and attaching that spoiler hiding thing does nothing to prevent people from reading what I write down.

4. The elimination of melee combat. This game feels a lot like Splinter Cell Conviction in that regard. It's the fact that yes there technically is melee but it's just a button press and down goes the enemy in a flashy style. It doesn't matter how many bullets you took, how alert he is, or whether or not he's doing jumping jacks, the only time it does matter is if he is invisible. Of course that would be severely overpowered so they attached a battery thing to it so you had a limited amount of beatdowns and sword thrusts and headturners because as everybody knows the amount of energy required to knock somebody unconscious and to punch a huge hole in the wall is pretty much the same. The fact of battery usage is only part of my complaint. My issue is that due to the OHKO fact you can't use melee against the bosses either. Oh sure I snuck up and tried against coolant girl but I got kicked in the head for my trouble. And the other fact is that you can't punch your way through a crowd of enemies without stopping, you will have to eat a proenergy bar or something to that extent in order to keep on going but it's all unnecessary, they didn't need to make the melee takedowns look all flashy like that, it all could have been done in the first person camera. So basically I believe that the melee isn't melee but a cutscene that ends in death or a coma and because of that fact melee is not a combat option at all unlike what it was in the first game, I really wanted to use the arm swords and headturners (and fists of course) as ingame weapon as opposed to in cutscene.

5. The endings. Oh, there was nothing wrong with the endings, each one wrapped up the stories nicely, it's just, my problem is the terrible boss fight before the ending and the palmstrike-to-the-face stop just before the end that makes you choose an ending as opposed to the ending you earned being tied in at the very beginning of the game. What basically happens is that you enter a room and you see 3 buttons (prepared for just this sort of occasion no less) and somebody tells you about a 4th button hidden somewhere and opens the way to take that 4th button too. Are there more endings then this? I sure hope there are, to sum it up in the least spoilerrific way I can is that there's "the truth", "the pure", "the machine", and "let's kill everyone in this house" ending but these options only seem to be influenced by the events in the last stage of the game, that's not a player inputted story if the only time I feel like I'm actually making any useful input is at the end.

6. Parts of the Art. A lot of the things in Human Revolution looked cool but I have a few questions. One, what is with that ridiculously huge back collar headress thing attached to their clothes? And if you played the game you know who I'm talking about.

7. Adam's Pathetic Grip. When dragging bodies, if they got caught on furniture Dear Old Adam Jensen had the tendency to let go of them really easily without my knowledge, this leads to the unfortunate side-effect of me getting caught. And not realizing why until I notice the body I had left caught in a chair without my knowledge had blown my cover.

[TheBRADLeyB]

I've no interest in Dues Ex. Is that what we are talking about?...


I just have no interest in the game. I don't know what it is about or anything really but I've not been impressed with anything I've seen. Then again I'm very particular about my games.

[Nicacin]

i've play Human Revolution...

it's a good game, beatiful art design and music... but is far far away from Deus Ex.. it's not "Deus Ex", i'm sorry.

The game is too easy, even in hard difficulty; the plot is very boring and player have no way to change it (4 ending ok... but are only 4 short clip in the end...). The interactivity, focus of the first Deus Ex, is ZERO.

Realy, developers have ever played the first game?? :mad2:


Seriously, if this Thief 4 will be like HR, i never buy it.

Eidos, you lose my credibility...

See you soon

[Hypevosa]

That's funny, I only played and finished Deus Ex within the last year, and you know, it's almost exactly the same as long as you play on the "give me deus ex" difficulty and ignore the cover system. I actually found combat in HR much more difficult since health boosting items are much rarer and going into fights with half HP is borderline suicide - while in Deus Ex first aid kits littered the landscape to the point I always had a stock of 20 for the entire game.

Maybe you should play Deus Ex again, you may be surprised at how much nostalgia is completely warping your view on things.

[fbdbh]

I think DXHR has major faults, but I still enjoy it. It's not a big disappointment, it's fun to play, it's much deeper than any other FPS-s nowadays, and most importantly it rewards exploration and stealth. It respects the first game, in some ways. Some of the sneaking sequences combined with excellent audio was almost Thief-like. It's a solid and very playable game and in some ways smoother than the first game.

But still, it's inferior. Much of the production budget was spent on fancy cutscenes and "eye-candy production values". Just some of the things that I don't like about DXHR:

- The game is short
- No melee
- No specialization (it just kinda ruins alternate ways, you can explore all of them, hack everything, and grab everything AND kill everyone whithout penalty)
- Boss fights (mostly because bosses are... well, nobodies. Who are they, actually? In DX1 I fought familiar faces at least). And they are annoying shooting sequences even if I play the rest of the game in stealth mode.
- Cover-based fight is... well, it's a comfortable thing, but leaning would be much better. Staying in first person or just the option to do so is essential for an immersive experience.
- Unskippable intro-ads (but at least I found a patch / hack for that).

So... If Thief 4 does what DXHR did, I won't really be upset like I was when T3 came out. But I hope Thief 4 will be better than DXHR.

[CyrianFontaine]

I think it would be crazy to call it faultless, but it's definitely the best game I've played so far this year. I hear what people are saying with their criticisms, but the majority of what's been listed simply doesn't bother me that much. It's not that I'm not critical of the games I play; it's more that I place my priorities on different aspects. DXHR was a satisfying experience, and although I don't think it's as good as the original, I don't think it has to be. Sequels should be respectful of their predecessors, but they shouldn't be forever cursed to live in their shadows. DXHR did a lot of new things while keeping the spirit of DX1 alive, and I really do think that is something that should be applauded. But to each his/her own, I guess.

[:-D]

The AI simply is ridiculously foolish. There isn't enough thought involved in defeating these Eidos Montreal Constructs.

I'm in TYM and have 11 praxis points surplus, after spending them on a pointless parachute and needless hacking upgrades. I mean, come on Eidos Montreal! The people clamouring for this game since 2007 weren't MORONS, you know!

Anyways. I'm a THIEF player, and to be quite fecking honest, your idea of 'difficult' is moronic tedium!!!!!!!!!!

GIVE ME DEUS EX1!!!!?!?!??!?!?!

GIVE ME THIEF!!!!!!!!!!????!!!?!

Am I getting old? Is this like a maths exam with a calculator, EM? I'm sorry, but I wasn't allowed calculators when I was in school.

Stiop corrupting the curriculum.

[Nephthys]

Did not play because

A: I don't have the money to buy it, and haven't gotten a chance to borrow it yet
and
B: I haven't finished the older two so I'd like to do that before starting this one.


I have no harsh opinions of the game yet, and I have to cut EM some slack for the response they made to the community's reaction to all the highlighting. Not every company would change something like that so close to release, so you know that they cared about some of the community's complaints.

[Hypevosa]

Don't cut yourself short. When the game is designed, it's not designed with Thief players in mind, but the general populous. We've been trained in a sense to approach situations always to our advantage - where to look and how to explore in ways that we can find and do everything since we pretty much had to if we wanted to meet some loot requirements. Thief players have been bred to be thorough, and the average person will likely miss half the stuff we take for granted, meaning they'll level nowhere near as quickly and the difficulty for them will be much greater.

Also realize that you've likely made the game easier on yourself by choosing certain upgrades. What have you spent your praxis points on?

To ensure the game still has tension and some modicum of difficulty, I've forgone any combat or stealth related upgrades. All I've got are things that aid in exploration, like level 5 hacking, moving heavy objects, high jumping, etc. I get to go everywhere, experience everything, and I still get surprised since I can't see through walls or have an omniscient radar, or sprint to someone without them hearing me and my guns still get less reliable if I have to run with them.

The AI more concerns me areas like how civilians have no sense of self preservation, but just cower there and let you shoot them. Guards are on the same level of intelligence as in previous thief games, and I'm ok with that. In thief it will hopefully be something that's more focused on.

[Platinumoxicity]

Did not play because

A: I don't have the money to buy it, and haven't gotten a chance to borrow it yet
and

Borrow? Stop, criminal scum! Don't you know that "not giving money" to someone who isn't requesting it is a crime? When you borrow a game, you are denying the profit from a company by not giving them the money that you never intended for them to have. :nut:

[Caranfin]

Don't cut yourself short. When the game is designed, it's not designed with Thief players in mind, but the general populous. We've been trained in a sense to approach situations always to our advantage - where to look and how to explore in ways that we can find and do everything since we pretty much had to if we wanted to meet some loot requirements. Thief players have been bred to be thorough, and the average person will likely miss half the stuff we take for granted, meaning they'll level nowhere near as quickly and the difficulty for them will be much greater.

Also realize that you've likely made the game easier on yourself by choosing certain upgrades. What have you spent your praxis points on?

To ensure the game still has tension and some modicum of difficulty, I've forgone any combat or stealth related upgrades. All I've got are things that aid in exploration, like level 5 hacking, moving heavy objects, high jumping, etc. I get to go everywhere, experience everything, and I still get surprised since I can't see through walls or have an omniscient radar, or sprint to someone without them hearing me and my guns still get less reliable if I have to run with them.

The AI more concerns me areas like how civilians have no sense of self preservation, but just cower there and let you shoot them. Guards are on the same level of intelligence as in previous thief games, and I'm ok with that. In thief it will hopefully be something that's more focused on.
Having to impose restrictions on yourself to make gameplay challenging on the hardest difficulty mode is not exactly a mark of good game design. It seems to me that the game is designed to be completable even without upgrading a single augmentation, which makes a lot of the augmentations able to completely trivialize any encounter in the game. Progressing in the game isn't a question of what you can do, it's about what you want to do this time as, regardless of your augmentation spread, the difficulty of most of the options available ranges from "moderately challenging" if you have no augs to support what you're trying, to "insultingly easy" if you are fully auged in support of what you are trying to do.

[TheWoodsieLord]

Did not play because

A: I don't have the money to buy it, and haven't gotten a chance to borrow it yet
and
B: I haven't finished the older two so I'd like to do that before starting this one.


I have no harsh opinions of the game yet, and I have to cut EM some slack for the response they made to the community's reaction to all the highlighting. Not every company would change something like that so close to release, so you know that they cared about some of the community's complaints.

Actually, you could play Human Revolution first ,since it's a prequel.

Overall, I liked the game pretty much. Not as good as the first Deus Ex, but nothing is for a nostalgia whore like myself :P

The only thing I really hated was the boss fights and the way bio-electricity is handled.

[theBlackman]

Won't ever play DX. I was gifted DXI and DXII never opened the box. Will miss DXHR (III) like I would miss a tooth ache...

[jtr7]

The playtesters were not an actual representative cross-section of the consumer-base. Highlighting was added in because playtesters missed too much.

[Hypevosa]

Having to impose restrictions on yourself to make gameplay challenging on the hardest difficulty mode is not exactly a mark of good game design.

No, but it's still something we do anyways. Just look at the ghosting community. I would call all the thief games easy, but, again, that's because of ME and how I've become better as a gamer and how thief has trained me to deal with what I once considered challenges.

The only thing I really fault them for is making it so it's only slightly hard to play the game with 0 augs - they failed to have a difficulty curve meaning that all stealth and combat augs JUST made the game easier. There are no built in systems to counter a heavily augmented character - no enemies who use piercing rounds to penetrate dermal plating, no enemies with auditory augs to make it so even with silent movement augs you had to stay a minimum of 5 feet away or else they heard you, etc, etc. It was just a strictly linear difficulty as the game progressed, when it should have always been getting harder to meet the players own progression or choice to not progress. You don't throw dire rats at a level 20 player, you throw a dozen trolls at them, and then finish the fight off with a dragon.

[TheWoodsieLord]

Another thing I didn't like in Human Revolution were the "moves" we were forced to watch a million times over, wether it's a takedown or simply jumping down with the Icarus aug... This one bothered me the most, Instead of just falling down a bit more slowly and taking no damage, the game made me watch Adam glide down through the air and when he got down, I'd have to wait for him to stand up and for the camera to get back into his head.

[Hypevosa]

Then why not ignore the icarus upgrade and use tranqs, PEPS and the taser instead of takedowns?

[TheWoodsieLord]

Then why not ignore the icarus upgrade and use tranqs, PEPS and the taser instead of takedowns?

I did avoid takedowns, I used them less than 5 times in the entire game. But Icarus is too useful to ignore. It's land with an irritating animation or land and die :)

[Hypevosa]

I can't recall any situations so far where jumping from an insane height was required of me, but perhaps I need to finish the game up first >_>

[theBlackman]

I do read most of the posts in this forum even if I fail to join in, but this discussion has convinced me to take my lady out to dinner and save the price of DXHR.

Every comment I have read so far has solidified my complete lack of interest in Deus Ex especially in this new permutation..

[jtr7]

Telling people to merely avoid utilizing a move in the a complex game that provides no other means to the desired end, and involves avoiding entire areas of exploration and navigation is crap, Hype'.

[Hypevosa]

Ok, maybe I'm not suicidal, but there's NOT A SINGLE AREA that I can recall where an icarus upgrade is required to get there - not a damned one. There's a revolutionary thing called stairs, or elevators, or ventilation ducts, or using your eyes and jumping from ledge to ledge to ledge. Using the icarus upgrade is a lazy man's way to do what is otherwise platforming or stealth gameplay that takes player skill into account, rather than a lazy allotment of a praxis point.

There's also not a single area where you're required to use the takedown to get to it either. To be sure, I just did the mission where you have to take out Diamond Chan -- and Jensen makes the assertion it will likely require hand to hand combat (i.e. takedown). If you take your time and make a skilled headshot with the tranq rifle or a taser he goes down like a rock with no damage to make it look like foul play was involved. So yes, there's no situation that requires takedowns if you have the player skill to approach it from a different angle

If you don't like one means to the ends which you seek, there are alternatives. You are the last person I'd expect to encourage lazy gameplay over player skill, JTR - I am sorely disappointed. It is someone's own fault if they choose to play a game the way they don't enjoy. If I was DMing a game of dungeons and dragons, and I had a player choose to play as a mage and then constantly complain about how it was too squishy and they didn't like how the spells worked and blah blah blah, I'd tell them to play as something different or stop ****ing since it's their fault they chose to play a way they didn't enjoy. This is no different - people are choosing to be lazy and are being the architects of their own misery when they can choose to instead be the architects of their own enjoyment. Would you not hold someone else accountable if they complained TDP and TMA were too easy when they were choosing to play on easy instead of expert? I can not, and will not, be sympathetic to those who choose to play in such a manner.

[Caranfin]

Ok, maybe I'm not suicidal, but there's NOT A SINGLE AREA that I can recall where an icarus upgrade is required to get there - not a damned one. There's a revolutionary thing called stairs, or elevators, or ventilation ducts, or using your eyes and jumping from ledge to ledge to ledge. Using the icarus upgrade is a lazy man's way to do what is otherwise platforming or stealth gameplay that takes player skill into account, rather than a lazy allotment of a praxis point.

There's also not a single area where you're required to use the takedown to get to it either. To be sure, I just did the mission where you have to take out Diamond Chan -- and Jensen makes the assertion it will likely require hand to hand combat (i.e. takedown). If you take your time and make a skilled headshot with the tranq rifle or a taser he goes down like a rock with no damage to make it look like foul play was involved. So yes, there's no situation that requires takedowns if you have the player skill to approach it from a different angle

If you don't like one means to the ends which you seek, there are alternatives. You are the last person I'd expect to encourage lazy gameplay over player skill, JTR - I am sorely disappointed. It is someone's own fault if they choose to play a game the way they don't enjoy. If I was DMing a game of dungeons and dragons, and I had a player choose to play as a mage and then constantly complain about how it was too squishy and they didn't like how the spells worked and blah blah blah, I'd tell them to play as something different or stop ****ing since it's their fault they chose to play a way they didn't enjoy. This is no different - people are choosing to be lazy and are being the architects of their own misery when they can choose to instead be the architects of their own enjoyment. Would you not hold someone else accountable if they complained TDP and TMA were too easy when they were choosing to play on easy instead of expert? I can not, and will not, be sympathetic to those who choose to play in such a manner.
I believe at least one area, relevant if you want to read all the readables, requires the landing system to get to. Unless you cheese the physics with a box or something, of course.

[Hypevosa]

There's the man at the bottom of the shaft in TYM, but the only readable he has is an e-mail to him asking if he wants to handle the interrogation of a harvester who broke in (obviously didn't go too well for him). Assuming you don't have a strong desire to kill yourself by constantly jumping from the highest places you can find, the icarus upgrade is not a necessary tool save for maybe 10 total seconds of play time if you want to have 100% exploration - they didn't exactly litter the landscape with areas to catch the suicidal.

[Blue Sky]

I've started playing Deus Ex 3 last night, and I'm blown away by its scope and the quality of the whole thing.

Obviously there's loads of stuff in this game I wouldn't want in Thief 4, but if Thief 4 has this much attention to detail in it and reeks with this much love it's going to be a wonderful experience.

[jtr7]

Hype', how dare you shoehorn your overall frustration with many into anything I say about DX:HR. DX:HR does not provide 1st-person versions of basic gameplay. That's the facet you will not acknowledge and understand. Forced workarounds to avoid camera-switching is not in the spirit of all the player skill I celebrate. They are fundamentally different. One is more fun and one is more of a chore. Thankfully there is fun in the chore, just not enough, just as there is chore in the fun, just not too much. I remain consistent in my views. If I ever seem to change, it's your misperception, not I. View-switching and no simpler and steady option is a major flaw I hope T4 won't repeat. I await the modders' verdict.

[wildandcrazyguy]

Hypervosa, the problem isn't the Icarus Landing System itself, the problem is the animation that plays every single time it's used.The Icarus on its own is perfectly fine and very useful, all that needs to happen is for it to be more like Portal, where you can fall an infinite distance with no break in gameplay.

[Blue Sky]

View-switching and no simpler and steady option is a major flaw I hope T4 won't repeat. I await the modders' verdict.

I don't think the view switching in Deus Ex is a "major flaw" because the gameplay is built around it and it's so seamless it's hardly noticable...I think it works really well! It really suits the tone and type of game that Deus Ex is, I think.

However, if it's like that in Thief I will scream.

[Platinumoxicity]

I don't think the view switching in Deus Ex is a "major flaw" because the gameplay is built around it and it's so seamless it's hardly noticable...

Exactly. Games shouldn't be built around switching views.

[Hypevosa]

I do like how the response comes long after, even though it's clear by the editting water marks your statement was altered 20 minutes after my last edit.

I know the problem is the animation, my point is that the animation is very easily avoided by simply not being a lazy bumpkin and constantly plummeting to your would be death over taking the stairs. I'm not done with the game yet because I have classes and friends to attend to in college, but I've only come across one part where its use was needed. (meaning a whopping 5 seconds of required use)

Automatic 3rd person shifts are an issue, my point is they are an easily avoided issue, and therefore a veritable non-issue in the scope of things. The game has too many cut scenes, it has too many funnels that players can't avoid, when you're in a "mission" as opposed to a Hub it actually is quasi linear, there's a difficulty line instead of a curve meaning the game doesn't really get much harder at all when you go along and every aug ends up purely making the game easier instead of tapering the difficulty a bit. There are worse issues in the game because there are unavoidable issues. What I will not stand for is people focusing on problems they can easily avoid. Sure, you may get a little wet intermittently, but people have no right to whine that they're getting drenched during a storm when they can just open a ****ing umbrella.

[Blue Sky]

Exactly. Games shouldn't be built around switching views.

You seem to agree, then disagree with me in the same sentence! :D

Why shouldn't a game be built around switching perspectives? Why should there be a list of rules as to what a game "should" be?

Deus Ex 3 has shifting viewpoints, and it works very well - in my opinion, of course! - because it's very seamless and well implemented and enhances the gameplay they wanted to create.

But obviously I still think that Thief 4 will (hopefully) have different gameplay, and not have such a feature.

[Hypevosa]

I wonder if, perhaps, the camera didn't instantly appear at a perfect angle, but instead moved from your head much like how it returns to it at the animations end, if that would have been a bit better. Having it make a complete circuit as opposed to jumping around.

[Platinumoxicity]

Why shouldn't a game be built around switching perspectives? Why should there be a list of rules as to what a game "should" be?

Deus Ex 3 has shifting viewpoints, and it works very well - in my opinion, of course! - because it's very seamless and well implemented and enhances the gameplay they wanted to create.

A game that is designed around switching views doesn't really know what it's supposed to be. A game that is designed according to 1st person gameplay can be perfected for that type of gameplay. The same with 3rd person. If switching views is a core element of the game, then it means that "the game having not been designed for either view" -is a core element of the game.

For me it seems like DXHR should have been entirely 1st- or 3rd person. 1st person would have worked perfectly. With 3rd person there would have been some extra work and distortion of some of the level design, but I think the game would have been fine with 3rd person only. (I'm basing this on the fact that since there already is a 3rd person cover system and takedown animations, immersion and realistic perception and balance were never a priority in the first place. So nobody go calling me inconsistent for supporting 1st person only for Thief.)

[Rockn-Roll]

I think it would be possible to implement the icarus landing system so that the player isn't disoriented...and would actually add to the enjoyment But, Square Enix did it horribly...they didn't just give us a nice 3rd person view of the action...it would have been sweet to have the camera pull back so we can watch the stun effect for example or just the aura surrounding Jensen as he is falling. No...they took the camera and twisted it around...they did that with the take downs too. This causes the player to lose their focus of where they need to go afterwards. If the take-down or the jump was the only thing going on then yeah...twisting it around wouldn't be so bad...the player can take some time to re-orient themselves before continuing on. but, that's not the case. A take down is normally just the start of a battle or sneak-fest. Jensen frequently has to take down a man then quickly move his body off behind cover or take-down the next man, but twisting the camera around causes the player to lose track of exactly where they need to drag the body or where the next target is. When the take-down scene is finished the player does have some idea of where to drag the body, but I found myself frequently getting the direction off by just a little bit...causing the body to catch on a corner of a box or door. Manly because Jensen needs to be going Backwards while dragging too! So not only does the player need to keep their dragging direction in mind, but to know it backwards...and twisting the camera around is totally too distracting from the gameplay. Plus, I actually threw up after my first session of playing Deus Ex...it's just not healthy to have your world twisted around like that. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there are lawsuits against Square Enix for intentionally causing nausea...when I buy a game I expect it to make me feel good...not bad.

[Caranfin]

I have an idea.

They could also have done it all in 1st person.

Radical, I know.

[Hypevosa]

I think it would be cool to watch the takedowns from first person. The best part would have been if they'd done some good facework as well. One of the greatest moments in my gaming experience was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqXx9nBa-CQ

Yeah, seeing things from 3rd person is cool, but far less personal. Actually seeing someone look at you, that accusing glare of murder right and the moment of terror right before their life slips from their eyes... It's just something you can't replicate looking through the lens of a camera instead of the eyes of a person. Especially in a game like thief where murder is supposed to be discouraged, I feel that having to see the horrific consequences of your own ineptitude would be a very good deterrent. Sure, it may be easy, but it should never feel good to kill someone.

[Caranfin]

Indeed. One of the things I enjoyed in Mirror's Edge were the disarm animations.
yspt9dwa5n4

I'd much prefer Human Revolution's takedowns if they were done in this manner. Though I'd still like the moves to flow better. I know the occasional pausing is to show the player what's going on, but it still feels silly.

[Hypevosa]

yeah, kneeing that guy in the face at 1:52, that's one I remember clearly as well. That "Oh ****, this is going to hurt" look.

[Caranfin]

2:41 is my personal favourite.

[Hypevosa]

See, for only being able to see the eyes of those guys, they really didn't do anything with their faces. It's a cool takedown, but the eyes are too static for me to enjoy it - the cop in sunglasses had the whole facial expression going on.

[GepardenK]

Yes, the 3rd person moves were annoying. Most of them, like the knockout ones, would have been okay if they were fast, slick and brutal. But no, they had to show long "epic" takedowns that got boring fast.

Why not go the Alien vs Predator route of first person takedowns? I thoght that was one of the few things in that game that actually were good.

Still voted having fun but a few faults on DXHR btw

[Platinumoxicity]

Riddick first person takedowns were pretty cool. But they were a complicated system. You had unaware takedowns that were all unique for each melee weapon, final strike takedowns that were unique for each melee weapon, and counterattack takedowns that were not only unique for different weapons, but were also unique for different weapons that the enemy has, and also the direction from where the enemy attacks you, meaning bottom, top, left and right. So for each melee weapon there is a set of 26 different takedowns.

Although takedowns were not perfect in the new Riddick remake either. The old moves were replaced with longer, more complex animations in some cases. Takedowns should be short and efficient. In the original first-generation version of the game the takedowns were good.

[Master Taffer]

Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a great game that has a few faults. Biggest being the atrocious boss fights that fly in the face of player choice. These were poorly implemented and ignore the core design principle of player choice. Locking a non-lethal hacking/infiltration specialist in a garage with a man who has a damn gatling gun for a wristwatch is telling the player that the version of Adam Jensen they chose to construct is, in fact, wrong. Apart from the awful boss fights I have no qualms with the game. It was very well executed.

I also notice that there are people complaining about the game's length. As someone who is busy working a full time job and going to school full time I've learned to appreciate shorter games with high replay value. I can complete the game and move on, or replay it with a different approach. I think as the average age of the game playing populace rises you're going to find a lot of people out there rearing children and working full time that have a greater appreciation for a short game. I realize it's not going to stop people from complaining about it, but you certainly won't hear me whine about short games.

[Popemaster]

I have played the first few missions of the game and I was not impressed. I also have a really bad feeling many of the gameplay aspects will roll over to Thief. I was very disappointed when all the interesting objects and stuff in the environment wasn't interactive, only certain "highlighted" objects could be used. I think it definitely hinders exploration and it feels like it's telling me what/what not I can do. Same with the mission objective point to follow that you can see all the way across the map, it's like "Go here to complete the mission."

Of course all the ridiculous switching in and out of third person, along with the speculation of the THIAF leaked screenshot, I think it's safe to say there will be third person. :mad2:

[itsonyourhead]

There needs to be a: Played DX:HR, enjoyed it, but thought it doesn't deserve to be called a Deus Ex game.

[Master Taffer]

There needs to be a: Played DX:HR, enjoyed it, but thought it doesn't deserve to be called a Deus Ex game.

Yes, well it is. Get over it. Like it or not, it's a Deus Ex game. So is Invisible War.

[jtr7]

Minus personal aspects that made these players fans of the original. Get over it. Don't tell me you can't see how your posts aren't more of the very thing you don't like about this forum. The only difference is you can see your own justification just fine.

[Master Taffer]

Minus personal aspects that made these players fans of the original. Get over it. Don't tell me you can't see how your posts aren't more of the very thing you don't like about this forum. The only difference is you can see your own justification just fine.

The thing I don't like about this forum is everyone pompous entitlement and lack of an ability to see other people's viewpoint, tastes and preferences. I understand why people are so obsessed with minutia like rope arrows. I understand if someone doesn't like Deus Ex: Human Revolution. I understand why some people like third person and some people like first person. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with any of it, but I certainly understand it.

But the petty, asinine crap like "It doesn't deserve to be called Deus Ex" is just utterly stupid. Say it's a poor sequel/prequel to the original. That's a personal value judgement and perfectly valid. But don't sit there and say it doesn't deserve to be part of a series it clearly is a part of. Like it or not, it's a ****ing Deus Ex game.

[itsonyourhead]

The thing I don't like about this forum is everyone pompous entitlement and lack of an ability to see other people's viewpoint, tastes and preferences. I understand why people are so obsessed with minutia like rope arrows. I understand if someone doesn't like Deus Ex: Human Revolution. I understand why some people like third person and some people like first person. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with any of it, but I certainly understand it.

But the petty, asinine crap like "It doesn't deserve to be called Deus Ex" is just utterly stupid. Say it's a poor sequel/prequel to the original. That's a personal value judgement and perfectly valid. But don't sit there and say it doesn't deserve to be part of a series it clearly is a part of. Like it or not, it's a ****ing Deus Ex game.

No it isn't. Calling it such doesn't make it so. It's a Deus Ex game in name only, but not in terms of design.

[jtr7]

I still don't see what's actually different enough, MT. We're all disappointed in the actions of others, here (be it EM, SE, one of the many outsourced companies, the forum mods, posters, etc.) and not actually taking the higher ground. All your adjectives can be applied to many of your posts, as well, it's just that you know what you're intending and where it's coming from, and hardly anyone else does--just like it is for most of the rest of us. We're not being heard so we scream or scram.

[Master Taffer]

No it isn't. Calling it such doesn't make it so. It's Deus Ex: Human Revolution, but it is not a Deus Ex game.

And calling it not a Deus Ex game doesn't make it so, either. I'd say the plot threads, characters, themes of conspiracy, and gameplay principles that the two games share make them both part of the same series. What's your rational for saying they aren't part of the same series? Please, enlighten me.

[jtr7]

Certain fundamentals of gameplay are not even the same at all, leaving some players who enjoyed the original without a continuation of what they really liked to begin with in just the interfacing (including UI but more broadly speaking) alone. It's pretty subjective, but there are now thousands of posts to enlighten you.

[Master Taffer]

I still don't see what's actually different enough, MT. We're all disappointed in the actions of others, here (be it EM, SE, one of the many outsourced companies, the forum mods, posters, etc.) and not actually taking the higher ground. All your adjectives can be applied to many of your posts, as well, it's just that you know what you're intending and where it's coming from, and hardly anyone else does--just like it is for most of the rest of us. We're not being heard so we scream or scram.

Disappointed implies I expected something different from the Thief community. The reality is I this sort of petty crap is the norm for this fractured community. If there was information on the game regularly being released there would be no change in the disposition and whining around here. We saw it during Thief: Deadly Shadows production and release. Those that are dead set on hating the game will hate it. Those that claim they will boycott/not buy the game will buy it regardless.

Such is the circle of fandom, a pathetic exercise of irony where self important and entitled enthusiasts claim they love something then spend all their time trying to tearing it apart.

[Master Taffer]

Certain fundamentals of gameplay are not even the same at all, leaving some players who enjoyed the original without a continuation of what they really liked to begin with in just the interfacing (including UI but more broadly speaking) alone. It's pretty subjective, but there are now thousands of posts to enlighten you.

This fails to address how this is not a Deus Ex game. The gameplay principles are there, the mechanics have just changed. This is nothing new to game design and development. Gameplay evolves, changes and reflects the time of development. If you were to release a game like Deus Ex now it's design would be torn apart by consumers and publication. By today's standards (as well as mine) the game is a clunky piece of ****. But just because I don't like how the original game plays now, I'm not going to say that DE:HR is, in fact, more Deus Ex than the original. That's such an asinine statement.

So once again, I fail to see how this is not a Deus Ex game. If you miss certain elements then say that. If you don't like the game then say that. Just don't make asinine proclamations in an attempt to mitigate something out of a franchise. I don't like Rainbow Six: Lockdown as it discarded so many of the mechanics that made the previous games great on top of it being garbage in quality, but I don't sit here and proclaim it not to be a Rainbow Six game.

[Hypevosa]

It's Deus Ex - the distortion by nostalgia lenses getting thicker and thicker over the years just cause others to see the game through the eyes of a caricature artist; every single flaw distorted and augmented to the point where the face doesn't appear recognizable anymore. I was fortunate enough to only play through Deus Ex a few months ago. No, they're not clones, but they are at least half brothers.

[jtr7]

One more time:
What some people liked DX1 for--certain aspects of gameplay, mechanics--are missing or not the same to a significant degree that changes the personal pay-off. You are not a tard. Nostalgia has nothing to do with what I and the people I speak for like or do not like in gaming. I'm also talking about things that are not preferences. You don't have to relate, but making it something it's not, especially a cheapshot loser cliché, helps NO ONE.

[Hypevosa]

Gameplay preferences are nostalgia, it still falls under the "it was perfect the way it was" mindset. It's a matter of not being able to find the enjoyment in something new because you have that thing of old to which you can compare it. That's not where all the complaints are coming from but it accounts for many of them. As I've said and even posted on the DX:HR forums, the game is not perfect, it does have its flaws, but nostalgia is amplifying, for many, what would otherwise be considered forgivable sins if the game had no predecessors.

[Platinumoxicity]

Gameplay preferences are nostalgia, it still falls under the "it was perfect the way it was" mindset.

No they're not. There's this thing called "quality". Not all old games are superior quality, but not all new games are that either. Sometimes you just have to admit that something used to be better. The basic FPS movement concept like in Quake, Half-Life or Thief, is perfect. It doesn't need "improvements". If you compare some animation-based stumbling around or inconsistent view-switching mess into the fluidity of classic FPS control, the classic one simply wins. There's no nostalgia when something was actually "perfect the way it was".

Nostalgia is when you have a delusion that some popular old thing is by definition superior. If you say that Wolfenstein 3D is better than Far Cry just because it's Wolfenstein 3D, you are a pretentious idiot blinded by nostalgia. The newer game in this case just happens to be better in every way. Super Mario is not the best game ever made, it's just very widely known and happens to be old and classic. If you say that the arcade-style driving in an arcade driving game NFSU is more fun than the half-assed realistic driving in a supposedly arcade driving game NFS Shift, you are simply right. In this case the way it was done in the past is inarguably better. Splinter Cell 3 is better than Splinter Cell 5, but Splinter Cell 1 is not as good as Splinter Cell 3.

[Hypevosa]

It isn't a matter of quality, it's a matter of comfort. Titles carry meaning and influence - they set standards for a player going into them. Anyone playing a Doom or a Halo title has expectations because those old games bred into them certain behaviors, patterns, and beliefs that are associated with that name. Breaking these inherents and keeping the title ruins that sense of comfort, and people wish things were like the previous title (one of the word's very meanings, not just feeling good about the way things were, but wanting them to stay that way or return to it if they've changed)

If you honestly believe that the number of complainers and the number of different complaints for DX:HR would be exactly the same if it were a stand alone title instead of a series tie in, I think you're grossly understating the role nostalgia is playing in this circumstance.

[jtr7]

Learn the word before continuing to use it so destructively wrong, please. :mad:

[Vae]

By the way everyone, I did play DX:HR the first week it came out...and it has enough of the core elements to be called a DX game... although, it is a consolized and corrupted DX game.

[Platinumoxicity]

By the way everyone, I did play DX:HR the first week it came out...and it has enough of the core elements to be called a DX game... although, it is a consolized and corrupted DX game.

When you really think about it, is the feeling after playing Deus Ex 3... excuseme... Human Revolution the same as after playing Thief 3... excuseme... Deadly Shadows, except with less blue and more yellow? :D

[Vae]

Basically, yes...Although I would rate TDS a 6, and HR a 7.

So it's like a DX console+ game.

The art direction is the best thing about the game...but the glamour of that wears off pretty quickly.

The perspective switching is crap - anti-immersive and disorienting...:mad:

The boss fights are unwanted, underdeveloped, and inappropriate...:mad:

About 90% of the objects are non-interactive in the environment...:mad:

Everything can be found in the top drawer of every desk...ridiculous.

The take-downs are essentially an "I WIN" button...:mad:

A lot of frosting, without a lot of cake.

[itsonyourhead]

Gameplay preferences are nostalgia, it still falls under the "it was perfect the way it was" mindset. It's a matter of not being able to find the enjoyment in something new because you have that thing of old to which you can compare it. That's not where all the complaints are coming from but it accounts for many of them. As I've said and even posted on the DX:HR forums, the game is not perfect, it does have its flaws, but nostalgia is amplifying, for many, what would otherwise be considered forgivable sins if the game had no predecessors.

This is partially true. I'm replaying Deus Ex 1 right now. It's a far superior game. Not because nostalgia is making it seem better, but because it simply is a superior game. DX:HR is NOT a bad game. No DX fan is saying that. But DX:HR could have been far superior had the developers wanted to make it so, but they abandoned the core of Deus Ex and did what they "felt" like doing.

They betrayed the heritage Deus Ex gave them and produced an inferior product as a result.

We get to feel disappointed, angry, and they should know our pain.

[Hypevosa]

Learn the word before continuing to use it so destructively wrong, please. :mad:

Hey, world english dictionary:

1. a yearning for the return of past circumstances, events, etc
2. the evocation of this emotion, as in a book, film, etc
3. longing for home or family; homesickness

Yeah - I'd say it applies.

[Platinumoxicity]

Hype, if you have a silver car, and I arrive with a small bucket of very expensive high-quality red paint, and paint your left sideview mirror red, you can't complain. Because I improved your car. The mirror now has a coating of a higher quality paint than what it used to have. If you complain that it should have been left the way it is, your complaint can be ignored because you are just blinded by nostalgia. You need to understand that the public demand for the color of the sideview mirror of your car has evolved since the time when your car came out of the factory. You should catch up with the times and accept that all changes are always improvements.

[Popemaster]

The reason you don't think HR is a Deus Ex game because you haven't been playing on "Give me Deus Ex" setting. Clearly, as the name says, that has to be the REAL game. The other settings are different games, right? :nut:

[Hypevosa]

You should catch up with the times and accept that all changes are always improvements.

No, changes are (often) just changes - whether or not they're improvements is subjective and up to the player themselves to decide. For example - getting an HD Texture pack for minecraft is considered an improvement by some and not by others (I myself prefer the original aesthetics). The 3rd person takedowns are an improvement for some and not for others. There are few areas where this isn't the case, such as glitches that cause a game to crash.

[jtr7]

You've already shown you don't even know what the word "Nostalgia" means, waving it around like a baseball bat, and since it's going to take some time for you to reprogram yourself, if you bother, it's pointless, utterly a waste of time and energy, to continue defending either side with you. I await the modders, and keep my money to myself.

[Hypevosa]

You can turn the meaning of a word into a straw man if you like, but that doesn't change the fact that what I've said is true. Whether you like it or not, peoples' strong feeling towards Deus Ex and its influence upon them (nostalgia) is where much of the complaint for DX:HR is coming from. It would not be anywhere near as bad if DX:HR had, instead, been a standalone title - as its name wouldn't already have been setting precedents the developers did not intend to keep with, attracted a group who were hoping it would be exactly like the old title (nostalgia), and it would have been judged solely on its own and not in the shadow of its predecessor.

I wasn't trying to get you to buy it, JTR, it's pretty obvious you wouldn't ever be happy playing it (even after modding you likely will remain unsatisfied). I'm just venting/protesting since I see what's a good game not getting its fair shake from people who either aren't playing it, are sabotaging themselves by playing a way they won't enjoy, or are complaining about any departures from what would be a pure Deus Ex.

[maikaal]

I don't know why you Human Revolution sympathizers keep saying that we, fans of Deus Ex, wanted the new game to be exactly like the original. Have you actually seen anyone say that? I haven't.

[jtr7]

Hype's been here too long to not know he's parroting damned old fail arguments. To become one of THEM should be a degrading experience. He's now lumping people in with the narrow and extreme ends of the Bell curve who really do want a total rehash, and cannot articulate any more than that, since they don't know how it could possibly change in any direction without shattering a fragile perfection within the naturally-flawed creation.

[Vae]

You can turn the meaning of a word into a straw man if you like, but that doesn't change the fact that what I've said is true. Whether you like it or not, peoples' strong feeling towards Deus Ex and its influence upon them (nostalgia) is where much of the complaint for DX:HR is coming from. It would not be anywhere near as bad if DX:HR had, instead, been a standalone title - as its name wouldn't already have been setting precedents the developers did not intend to keep with, attracted a group who were hoping it would be exactly like the old title (nostalgia), and it would have been judged solely on its own and not in the shadow of its predecessor.

I'm just venting/protesting since I see what's a good game not getting its fair shake from people who either aren't playing it, are sabotaging themselves by playing a way they won't enjoy, or are complaining about any departures from what would be a pure Deus Ex.

Like the others have mentioned, nobody was asking for HR to be designed exactly like DX1...and they're not being nostalgic either. This is not about nostalgia, as the basis for nostalgia is sentiment...and people as a whole are not being sentimental, as they wanted something that is not bound to the past, or not bound in any single form such as DX1 is. What they wanted was something that is common to the core design of TDP, TMA, and DX1, which is, an immersive simulator with emergent gaming elements...not a highly scripted, cinematic, perspective switching, dumbed-down game that precludes emergence. In fact, not only is this the essence of what they wanted, they also were hoping for an evolution and expansion of DX based upon these emergent principals into something new and wonderful, as this would be true evolved gaming...This is the dream for those who understand.

DX:HR could have been a true evolution or even a revolution in gaming, but it never had a chance, thanks to the uninnovative, dumbed-down design philosophy from EM.

[Hypevosa]

Hype's been here too long to not know he's parroting damned old fail arguments. To become one of THEM should be a degrading experience. He's now lumping people in with the narrow and extreme ends of the Bell curve who really do want a total rehash, and cannot articulate any more than that, since they don't know how it could possibly change in any direction without shattering a fragile perfection within the naturally-flawed creation.

I don't know if I'm "becoming one of THEM" *gasp* whatever the hell that means (and you make it sound like it's such a bad thing). What has happened is that I've undergone a perspective shift seeing all these idiots come out of the woodwork who are exactly as I've depicted - doing nothing but trashing a game that they haven't even played, or refuse to play in a way that behooves them, simply because they WANT to make it seem like DX: HR is far worse than it actually is since it's not the exact Deus Ex that they wanted. Perhaps it's the fact that I have played the game that allows me to see what they're doing when you don't seem to be able to.

It's not everyone - I've never claimed it's everyone - there are plenty of complaints that are valid and well founded, like Death24701's post (which I didn't feel the need to respond to, though some things made me question it a bit - being able to predict the every bit of the story even though he fails to mention there's plenty of foreshadowing to help in that regard for example). There's just alot of hatred from origins that lie outside DX: HR itself, sprung from either hatred of "consolification" or disdain for not making it closer to the original Deus Ex - giving it a much less fair depiction than it deserves.

[glyph07]

I'm not an high knowledged IT person. I'm still playing DX:HR and despite the changes I've so far experienced, I don't mind it, it's fun enough. Though I've always thought that the nature of a game like DX provides material where devs choices can be more easily justified, while Thief, being so original and unique, is less felxible and adaptable to new implementations. Do I make sense to anyone? :scratch:

So even if I'm enjoying sufficiently DX, the fact that it has been created as it is, doesn't reassure me in the least as far as Thief 4 is concerned. I'm still dreading a T4 whose identity I cannot recognise at all.