Combat vs. Story?

[JorduSpeaks]

So, the combat system looks really fun, but it also looks like it will feel out of place in this particular game.

Since it appears that most combat will be focused on breaking into places and murdering hapless security guards, I'm just not convinced that it's the sort of thing ex-security guard Adam would do. From what we've seen in trailers, he seems to be a rather sympathetic character. Yet, combat-oriented gameplay footage just makes him look like a rabid sociopath.

Also, since he's being sponsored by the largest Augmentation company in North America, it seems odd from a PR point of view to have Adam advertising how their product can turn ordinary people into cyborg super-terrorists. Even if he somehow pins his attacks on other organizations, the fact that he's just one guy with augmentations that allow him to slaughter hundreds of people and get away without a scratch might very well turn public sentiment against augmentations.

If I was CEO of Serif Industries, I would be pissed as hell if Adam went in guns a-blazin'.

[JCpie]

The point is, you can shape him.

And he's not Ex-security guard, he's Ex-SWAT.

[remmus]

well again it´s hard to get a full picture, first of the game does give you none lethal options, so if you want to those can be used, plus by cyberpunk standards, anyone has a price.

[EricaLeeVee]

Yes, the great thing about this game is that you will have consequences for your actions should you decide to be a crazed psychopathic killer or not.

However, to his core Jensen is still Jensen. You can change how he handles situations and the certain mood in which he approaches conversation (along with some ideals of his) but he still has his own character.

[Itkovian]

Also, keep in mind that Jensen is not Sarif's PR manager. Neither is he a walking advert either. It's entirely likely that the augmentations he received were done quietly. Nothing we've seen indicates that Sarif is using his recovery as another miracle of augmentation technology.

More likely Sarif had him augmented so he could both survive and be that much more effective at achieving Sarif's goals, many of which are no doubt covert.

Itkovian

[JCpie]

Check out the hacked Sarif site, Purity First are uncovering all the secret weapons in Adam's augs, I doubt they'd want the public to know.

[CoDEllite]

Since it appears that most combat will be focused on breaking into places and murdering hapless security guards, I'm just not convinced that it's the sort of thing ex-security guard Adam would do. From what we've seen in trailers, he seems to be a rather sympathetic character. Yet, combat-oriented gameplay footage just makes him look like a rabid sociopath.


You do realize what happened to Adam to account for such violence? They kidnapped/possibly killed his woman and messed him up so bad that he had to be turned into bionic robocop just to stay alive. Who wouldnt be pissed off if the next morning you wake up half your body is metal or plastic. Thats exactly the reason why my first playthrough will be as violent as possible to stay true to the character. And for the record I dont think such info is a spoiler anymore to anyone even remotely interested in the game.

[JCpie]

Sociopath = Psychopath?


Anyway, In my opinion, violence isn't true to the character. Neither is totally non-lethal, it's the player's choice. Adam's not a psycotic mass murderer, it's obvious because he didn't take the shot in Mexican town, but it's not like he's going to be afraid to kill anyone either.

[EricaLeeVee]

You do realize what happened to Adam to account for such violence? They kidnapped/possibly killed his woman and messed him up so bad that he had to be turned into bionic robocop just to stay alive. Who wouldnt be pissed off if the next morning you wake up half your body is metal or plastic. Thats exactly the reason why my first playthrough will be as violent as possible to stay true to the character. And for the record I dont think such info is a spoiler anymore to anyone even remotely interested in the game.

Adam doesn't really seem like the ultra violent type. I don't know what you saw in the trailers to give the idea that he is like that (except in that he is killing 'bad guys'). He obviously feels guilt from the event (and seems to be traumatized as well; which is understandable) along with an array of other turbulent emotions. From what I've played he's not out for revenge at all...just determined to get answers.


I would absolutely hate the story if it went in the 'they killed/kidnapped mah woman and beat me up now i want revenge' route. :nut: Seems like shallow and uninspired reasoning.

[VectorM]

You can finish every single level without killing anyone (except bosses). End thread.

[Pinky_Powers]

So, the combat system looks really fun, but it also looks like it will feel out of place in this particular game.

Only because you don't understand the game. Keep reading and you'll gleam some insight.

Since it appears that most combat will be focused on breaking into places and murdering hapless security guards, I'm just not convinced that it's the sort of thing ex-security guard Adam would do.

It's been pointed out already that Adam is not an ex-security guard. As I said, you don't understand the character or the game yet. He's ex-SWAT. Those are trained killers. They are not policemen. They aim for the head and do not hesitate.
Be that as it may, it is still up to you whether or not to kill anyone (save for boss-fights). You are never forced into harming, let alone killing, "hapless security guards." You could kill 'em. Or you could knock them out, perfectly non-lethal. Or you could sneak by without ever touching them.
Your perception of who Adam is should lead you to figure out how you want to play.

I would have you pay attention to those you see Adam killing in the trailers. They are not security guards. They are mostly employees of true villains. They are mercenaries and soldiers, not rent'a-cops.

Also, since he's being sponsored by the largest Augmentation company in North America, it seems odd from a PR point of view to have Adam advertising how their product can turn ordinary people into cyborg super-terrorists.

Adam is an unknown quantity to the world at large. His handling of the terrorist attack on the Sarif facility in the first-mission goes completely under the radar of the Media. The incident is credited to SWAT. And if you do go crazy and, say, slaughter all the cops in the Detroit PD, Sarif will be angry, but he'll cover up your involvement as much as possible.

But everybody knows Augs make good Thugs. There's an entire Detroit gang dedicated to augmentations.

[Ilves]

He's ex-SWAT. Those are trained killers. They are not policemen.


That would be Marines. :p

I dunno, when I think SWAT I think extremely controlled, balanced individuals with impeccable service records in law enforcement.

Sure, some disillusionment & angst in Adam seems appropriate, but I would have liked more of this professionalism reflected in his take down moves. Which I maintain, save a few, look totally psycho. ;P

[sonicsidewinder]

^ Lol yeah.

Try playing Swat 3 or 4 while just killing everyone.

That just aint right! Tear gas, and non-lethal rounds all the way.

[Pinky_Powers]

Which I maintain, save a few, look totally psycho. ;P

I don't get that at all. Some of his moves should be more economic, given his level of training, but none of them speak to a disturbed personality.

Psycho would be a prolonged, tortuous killing from which Adam receives profound pleasure.

[sonicsidewinder]

While listening to Huey Lewis and the News or Phill Collins.

[Ilves]

Some of his moves should be more economic, given his level of training.

This, really. Maybe I should have said frantic instead of psycho. It's the stab-stabbity-stab nature of many of the takedowns that doesn't have me charmed. I feel more focus would have made for a cooler character. Especially given his background.

Case in point, if you've had a gander at the leak, have you seen his mirror?


The mirror was awesome. I loved how implicit that was. :thumb:

[pringlepower]

I don't get that at all. Some of his moves should be more economic, given his level of training, but none of them speak to a disturbed personality.

Psycho would be a prolonged, tortuous killing from which Adam receives profound pleasure.

Geez, can't a man blow off some steam? He just got thrown through likely bulletproof glass, shot in the head, got his arms and legs cut off, and was in rehab for 6 weeks. He's pretty pissed. That AND the whole moral issue over augmentation going through his head.

Case in point, if you've had a gander at the leak, have you seen his mirror?

[singularity]

the fact that he's just one guy with augmentations that allow him to slaughter hundreds of people and get away without a scratch might very well turn public sentiment against augmentations.
.

After having read the novel,

I would be really surprised if this didn't factor into the story in some way. It would also make a lot of sense to have an ending to the game that tied into this notion as well - on how biology mixed with technology only ends in people losing their humanity -- not "augmenting" it (it wouldn't screw with the canon too much either).
In the comics as well,

Adam makes several references to him being a tool (and I'm sure that's going to get misquoted) - nothing more than a machine for someone to point and pull the trigger. I strongly believe that Adam will struggle with this notion through out the game...

[Altan]

Geez, can't a man blow off some steam? He just got thrown through likely bulletproof glass, shot in the head, got his arms and legs cut off, and was in rehab for 6 weeks. He's pretty pissed. That AND the whole moral issue over augmentation going through his head.

Wasn't it six month ?

Case in point, if you've had a gander at the leak, have you seen his mirror?

That was really explicit. Kind of remembered me the trailer, one of first that is, the one where he broke his glass of whiskey.

[Pinky_Powers]

Geez, can't a man blow off some steam? He just got thrown through likely bulletproof glass, shot in the head, got his arms and legs cut off, and was in rehab for 6 weeks. He's pretty pissed. That AND the whole moral issue over augmentation going through his head.

Case in point, if you've had a gander at the leak, have you seen his mirror?

What he does while he sits in his apartment brooding should not necessarily reflect how he handles himself in the field. There's not a lot of room for introspection or self-pity when you're on-mission.

Take Apocalypse Now, Captain Willard is a flreakin' wreck at the beginning, but once he's given a mission, he seems like a totally sane, healthy soldier. It's the quiet times that a man like that falls apart.

[Jerion]

This, really. Maybe I should have said frantic instead of psycho. It's the stab-stabbity-stab nature of many of the takedowns that doesn't have me charmed. I feel more focus would have made for a cooler character. Especially given his background.

My Adam doesn't go stabbity-stab-stab all that often. Brutal when necessary but otherwise calm and collected.

Besides which, Adam strikes me as the kind of person that is resourceful and willing to use whatever tools are available to accomplish an objective. Be it stabbing with blades he had no part in accepting, putting flechettes through the throat of an unlucky guard, or throwing a fridge at a goon. Twice. Because, well, Science.

[EricaLeeVee]

What he does while he sits in his apartment brooding should not necessarily reflect how he handles himself in the field. There's not a lot of room for introspection or self-pity when you're on-mission.

Take Apocalypse Now, Captain Willard is a flreakin' wreck at the beginning, but once he's given a mission, he seems like a totally sane, healthy soldier. It's the quiet times that a man like that falls apart.

I agree. Seems like Adam is full of conflicting emotions when he's not on the job. The comics stated that he started smoking (and possibly drinking more) again after the incident.

His place is a mess with things like pizza boxes everywhere (and four kinds of cereal D: ), unpacked boxes of things even though he has been moved into that place for at least six months; and not to mention that mirror. The somber music unique to his apartment as well seems to suggest something as well. He just seems more depressed than angry to me. Perhaps he broke the mirror not out of anger but more out of guilt or self-loathing (he may not have wanted to see this augmented beast he has become).

Or maybe he just slipped in the bathroom and in trying to steady himself he broke the mirror on accident. :o

[Altan]

His place is a mess with things like pizza boxes everywhere (and four kinds of cereal D: ), unpacked boxes of things even though he has been moved into that place for at least six months; and not to mention that mirror. The somber music unique to his apartment as well seems to suggest something as well. He just seems more depressed than angry to me. Perhaps he broke the mirror not out of anger but more out of guilt or self-loathing (he may not have wanted to see this augmented beast he has become).

As you said he may feel guilty but not only because of him an "augmented beast", there's a lot of reason possible, feelings staying inside, things he couldn't say to Megan (maybe even to other workers of the facility) the fact that she "died" (the investigation was a bit suspicious it seems), not being able to protect her. Waking up and being nearly the only survivor and on top of that being an augmented weapon. That's, somehow, what he is. Well a thinking weapon I'll give you that, probably with his free will but still a weapon. The fact that he had no choice in that could make him resentful as well.

Still I agree with you on the fact that he is not litteraly angry.

[SladeTeck]

I suppose it's really how you feel as Adam Jensen. Your him, and he's you.

If you want to become a mass murderer fueled by nothing but revenge, well that's an option yes, no ones going to stop you either.

That said, I think I'll play Adam a little differently. There are things I think he'd be very violent over, even going so far as to kill. Like those who destroyed his body and killed his wife/girlfriend/domestic partner, making me into this hideous machine man. Then again, part of me thinks the Batman mentality. If I kill them, I'd be no better than them, even loosing my soul to the machine me. Focused on nothing but revenge, kind of like Flashpoint Batman.

It's a morality struggle, it also depends on how deeply connected you are to Adam and his plight. This, is called good story telling. I think I'm going to tip my hat to the fine developers now for those ideas. :thumb:

In the end though, it's all up to how you play. No two people will play Adam the same way.

[[FGS]Shadowrunner]

So, the combat system looks really fun, but it also looks like it will feel out of place in this particular game.

Since it appears that most combat will be focused on breaking into places and murdering hapless security guards, I'm just not convinced that it's the sort of thing ex-security guard Adam would do. From what we've seen in trailers, he seems to be a rather sympathetic character. Yet, combat-oriented gameplay footage just makes him look like a rabid sociopath.

Also, since he's being sponsored by the largest Augmentation company in North America, it seems odd from a PR point of view to have Adam advertising how their product can turn ordinary people into cyborg super-terrorists. Even if he somehow pins his attacks on other organizations, the fact that he's just one guy with augmentations that allow him to slaughter hundreds of people and get away without a scratch might very well turn public sentiment against augmentations.

If I was CEO of Serif Industries, I would be pissed as hell if Adam went in guns a-blazin'.

I'm going with the assumption that Eidos are whores only with the trailers and the game will be more interesting.
The lack of prod and inclusinon of punching and stabbing instead is quite a determined design decision I would say.
I can understand regen, cover system and especially making cloak suck more energy than before, but I'm less enthusiastic about his blades and ripping people's heads off with the food mixer arm.

I am excited and can't wait to try the newspapers that will change according to the paths I choose. Neat touch.

There are signs that the game will be as immersive in this respect as DX1, that in the Meet Adam Jensen Trailer, his fears and suspicions of his employer suggest that he will be a true "Denton", not some killer one step removed from Gunther.

[JCpie]

The stabby stabby violence is exaggerated in the tailers, in the game there's a lot of emphasis on non-lethal too (depending on who you're talking to).

[JorduSpeaks]

While it's true that you can control Adam and make him do whatever you want him to do, a lot of people seem to be overestimating the actual freedom you have. The is a role-playing game, and as such your actions are also influenced by narrative constraints as much as game mechanics. If you are truly playing a role, then your actions should make sense within the context of the world, the mission, and the character. My problem is that I WANT to turn Adam into the ultimate killing machine, as it looks really cool. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like doing so will make sense in the context of the world, the mission, or the character.

Additionally, it has been suggested that there will be unavoidable boss fights. If this is the case, it is possible that the game will actively punish players who try to fit within the role they've been given by making them woefully unprepared for these encounters.

[Pinky_Powers]

While it's true that you can control Adam and make him do whatever you want him to do, a lot of people seem to be overestimating the actual freedom you have. The is a role-playing game, and as such your actions are also influenced by narrative constraints as much as game mechanics. If you are truly playing a role, then your actions should make sense within the context of the world, the mission, and the character. My problem is that I WANT to turn Adam into the ultimate killing machine, as it looks really cool. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like doing so will make sense in the context of the world, the mission, or the character.

Additionally, it has been suggested that there will be unavoidable boss fights. If this is the case, it is possible that the game will actively punish players who try to fit within the role they've been given by making them woefully unprepared for these encounters.

I think you're so desperate to see only one Adam you refuse to notice the darker angels that plague him. Given what he's been through, a mentally unstable killing machine is perfectly reasonable for a version of that character. Between the freedom of action and the choices within the dialog system, you can play that role to great effect.

[SladeTeck]

I think you're so desperate to see only one Adam you refuse to notice the darker angels that plague him. Given what he's been through, a mentally unstable killing machine is perfectly reasonable for a version of that character. Between the freedom of action and the choices within the dialog system, you can play that role to great effect.

I must agree. If nothing else it would be a psychological problem that plagues Adam. Like survivor guilt, or even possibly PTSD. This of course, could add to the logic of why you would play Adam like a gun toting mad man. Assuming you want to play that way. I can see the RP reasons of course, I'm not sure what Adam's actual psychological profile is after the accident but I think it would be safe to assume he's not the same in the head there.

Really though, you can imagine any number of reasons to be a psycho killer if you want to play that way. It's really how you perceive it and RP it. Take a session of D&D or Shadowrun, (fair warning, venturing into nerd/geek territory), you make a character on paper, give him stats, some semblance of a personality. However, when you actually begin to play the character, that's when it starts to take a life of it's own. Maybe you designed this character to be a psychotic madman, but you end up playing him as a well to do genius. It's how you play the character that makes the experience.

I hope that makes sense. It sounded correct typing it but, hrm. I hope that makes sense. :hmm:

[JorduSpeaks]

I think you're so desperate to see only one Adam you refuse to notice the darker angels that plague him. Given what he's been through, a mentally unstable killing machine is perfectly reasonable for a version of that character. Between the freedom of action and the choices within the dialog system, you can play that role to great effect.

Even given that, is it reasonable for Sarif Industries to actively support and financially back someone like that, given that human augmentation is considered controversial? Having Adam go the bloodthirsty cyborg super-terrorist route would undoubtedly sway public opinion against human augmentation in general, making it far more difficult for Sarif to operate.

Corporations always attempt to do what is in the corporation's financial best interest. Funneling millions of dollars into a mentally unstable advertisement for the dangers of the product you're selling is not in a corporation's financial best interest.

[Pinky_Powers]

Even given that, is it reasonable for Sarif Industries to actively support and financially back someone like that, given that human augmentation is considered controversial? Having Adam go the bloodthirsty cyborg super-terrorist route would undoubtedly sway public opinion against human augmentation in general, making it far more difficult for Sarif to operate.

Corporations always attempt to do what is in the corporation's financial best interest. Funneling millions of dollars into a mentally unstable advertisement for the dangers of the product you're selling is not in a corporation's financial best interest.

Adam is much more to Sarif than an employee. David put millions into saving Adam's life and Augmenting him. Jensen is Sarif's sword, his vanguard in this fight, not some disposable thug. Not to mention all the undisclosed interests he might have in him.

And as has been mentioned a few times now, Adam is not in the public's eye, and so not swaying public opinion one way or the other. 90% of the atrocities you can do in the game can be explained away by "gang violence". The rest David may have to put some hard coin into.

Who are you to claim it's not worth the trouble? You have no bleeding idea all that Adam Jensen represents to the people around him. I've played the leak and even I don't know the truth of it all.

[JorduSpeaks]

Adam is much more to Sarif than an employee. David put millions into saving Adam's life and Augmenting him. Jensen is Sarif's sword, his vanguard in this fight, not some disposable thug. Not to mention all the undisclosed interests he might have in him.

And as has been mentioned a few times now, Adam is not in the public's eye, and so not swaying public opinion one way or the other. 90% of the atrocities you can do in the game can be explained away by "gang violence". The rest David may have to put some hard coin into.

Who are you to claim it's not worth the trouble? You have no bleeding idea all that Adam Jensen represents to the people around him. I've played the leak and even I don't know the truth of it all.

Well, you have me at something of a disadvantage, since I don't play pirated games. As such, you'll have to bear with me for not understanding the logistical and financial feasibility of covering up a mass shooting. It does beg the question though, why would you bribe lots of people to look the other way when the guy you spent millions of dollars turning into a ruthless killing machine decides to destroy a facility in a thoroughly un-subtle way? Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to just bribe one of those people to become a corporate spy/saboteur, especially given the fact that you were prepared to pay off that person, anyway?

[SladeTeck]

Well, you have me at something of a disadvantage, since I don't play pirated games. As such, you'll have to bear with me for not understanding the logistical and financial feasibility of covering up a mass shooting. It does beg the question though, why would you bribe lots of people to look the other way when the guy you spent millions of dollars turning into a ruthless killing machine decides to destroy a facility in a thoroughly un-subtle way? Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to just bribe one of those people to become a corporate spy/saboteur, especially given the fact that you were prepared to pay off that person, anyway?

The answer in that lies that everyone has a price. Everyone.

Besides, from what I've seen the people that Sarif mainly does aug work for is military. So I'm sure David Sarif can call in a few government favors if it really came to that.

Besides all of that, what happened to your suspension of disbelief? You kind of need it to play any game, Deus Ex or not.

[JorduSpeaks]

The answer in that lies that everyone has a price. Everyone.

Besides, from what I've seen the people that Sarif mainly does aug work for is military. So I'm sure David Sarif can call in a few government favors if it really came to that.

Besides all of that, what happened to your suspension of disbelief? You kind of need it to play any game, Deus Ex or not.

Good Gravy! I've already been asked to buy into the major science fiction premise of the game (that people will still be living in Detroit in the year 2027). How much disbelief am I asked to suspend?

That said, I can see situations in which Sarif Industries might want to use Adam as a field test for their experimental military-grade augs, with the idea of using Adam's performance to advertise the latest combat augs to prospective military customers.

[SladeTeck]

Good Gravy! I've already been asked to buy into the major science fiction premise of the game (that people will still be living in Detroit in the year 2027). How much disbelief am I asked to suspend?

That said, I can see situations in which Sarif Industries might want to use Adam as a field test for their experimental military-grade augs, with the idea of using Adam's performance to advertise the latest combat augs to prospective military customers.

How is that exactly hard to believe? Do you think we're all going to die in 2012? I think it's easier to believe than than a magical virus that can give you the power to lift objects, move things with your mind, sway the simple minded, etc. I'm looking at you Lucas.

Also given the way technology is going right now, I don't think it's that far fetched. A lot simpler than believing, "A long time ago, yet somehow in the future."

[JorduSpeaks]

How is that exactly hard to believe? Do you think we're all going to die in 2012? I think it's easier to believe than than a magical virus that can give you the power to lift objects, move things with your mind, sway the simple minded, etc. I'm looking at you Lucas.

Also given the way technology is going right now, I don't think it's that far fetched. A lot simpler than believing, "A long time ago, yet somehow in the future."

No, I think people are going to move. It's Detroit. Look at it! I think it's far-fetched to assume people will be living there a month from now.

[SladeTeck]

No, I think people are going to move. It's Detroit. Look at it! I think it's far-fetched to assume people will be living there a month from now.

Wow...okay, I've legitimately lost interest in this now.

Good day.