The Nobles and the Bots

[george12123]

Now i know what you mean, weren't they all destroyed?
Short answer: possibly yes.
Long answer: If i were a noble and i have had enough with these stupid guards getting drunk and hit on the head then i would preferably want some sort of mechanical thing which does not get drunk and never sleeps and always does what i tell it to.

What i am saying is that not all nobles and factory owners and other miscellaneous rich people in the world would get rid of the cameras and robots etc., because they are stronger and less drunk than guards. Face it nobody wants Benny guarding their house so they would look for alternatives, surely there must be some factory owner who as some sort of blueprints for these things and started producing them for people who don’t like human guards.
Heck that would make a great mission:
Garret has to break into a factory which is producing recreated bots and shut it down and burn or steal its blue prints and take all the money so that they cant afford to do anything. That would also be a great test of mass NPCs as to run a factory you are going to need a lot of people.
Imagine this you as garret on a shadowed catwalk looking down on this immense steampunk factory with hundreds of people and bits of machinery all moving about producing cameras and bots rapidly. *Shivers*



But enough of my ranting what do you think of the nobles and the bots.

[xAcerbusx]

As we saw from Gervasius' Mansion, every noble that had Mechanical Eyes and Bots needed a Mechanist on site to maintain them. With the fall of the Order and the Mechanist Heresy Trials, it's doubtful there would be any Mechanists left to maintain those machines.

[jtr7]

We don't know what happened to the people who program those things, let alone maintained them. Thanks to Garrett, I don't know that anyone would trust them to do the job the Mechanists promised anymore. I'd hope the wax cylinders in the maintenance bots would be removed.

[GATX]

Even if there were any blueprints left, and some former mechanists knew how to maintain the robots, i think the hammerites might forbid to maintain Karrass' blasphemous machines. On the other hand there were camera eyes in TDP e.g. in Cragsleft too, so some primitive cameras might still exist and be used.

[jtr7]

As long as it's not Precursor tech. or built on the premise of gears and boilers as holy symbols equal or above the hammer, or weapons of mass destruction, or praising Karras as a holy man or god-like. the Hammerites wouldn't be offended.

[GATX]

I think the Hammerites' opinion towards the Mechanists is clear:
The heretics are naught but a trial for the faithful of The Builder. They know nothing of devotion, of faith, of craftsmanship, or skill, and blindly follow the path of lies, greed, and deception. Markest thou my warning: At the forge of the Master Builder, He will separate steel from dross, and those who follow falsehoods instead of faith...will be forever cast aside.

[jtr7]

The people and the heretical works, absolutely. I'm against Hammerite forgiveness of their former brethren, choose to believe those that endured the Heresy Trials died 'neath righteous punishment, were never restored, and the rest either went into hiding, fled The City, or abandoned the faith, and who knows how the Hammerites would treat those who joined the Mechanist Order who were never Hammerites to begin with. Those who learned of Karras's true plans, if any, would have to be in denial, splinter off, or possible hold out for a second chance to see it through without the means to ever do it. The bots and factories and enforcements throughout The City, as well as the made-over temples, and places like Angelwatch, have so much material to send to the forges for purifying and reshaping in The Builder's name. Too bad TDS did not mention former Mechanists melting down the heretical works in hard labor punishment/penance.

[Platinumoxicity]

The Hammerites never opposed the technological advancements of the Mechanists. They were against the literal worshipping of the gear instead of the hammer, the total hate towards natural life and the way Karras was raised to almost the height of the builder himself. The know-how on how to create and maintain the machines still exists. Just the people who worshipped their own creations were convicted and killed. There's no reason why the Hammerites couldn't continue where the Mechanists left off technologically speaking. The Mechanists were never about progress. They were only against nature by any means necessary. The Hammerites are different because they are not against nature. They are for progress.

[Hypevosa]

Enough money and power can accomplish anything - you know there are at least a half dozen if not more nobles who probably have their own privately owned mechanist and gadgetry. That may just look like a chandelier, but just because a camera mask was stripped of it's mechanist aesthetics doesn't mean it can't be used. Just have to look for that distinctive crystal color to be sure.

[ChristheThief]

I know the Bots were all destroyed but i thought nobles were still around|?

[jtr7]

George only misspoke, heh heh.

[massimilianogoi]

Now i know what you mean, weren't they all destroyed?
Short answer: possibly yes.
Long answer: If i were a noble and i have had enough with these stupid guards getting drunk and hit on the head then i would preferably want some sort of mechanical thing which does not get drunk and never sleeps and always does what i tell it to.

What i am saying is that not all nobles and factory owners and other miscellaneous rich people in the world would get rid of the cameras and robots etc., because they are stronger and less drunk than guards. Face it nobody wants Benny guarding their house so they would look for alternatives, surely there must be some factory owner who as some sort of blueprints for these things and started producing them for people who don’t like human guards.
Heck that would make a great mission:
Garret has to break into a factory which is producing recreated bots and shut it down and burn or steal its blue prints and take all the money so that they cant afford to do anything. That would also be a great test of mass NPCs as to run a factory you are going to need a lot of people.
Imagine this you as garret on a shadowed catwalk looking down on this immense steampunk factory with hundreds of people and bits of machinery all moving about producing cameras and bots rapidly. *Shivers*



But enough of my ranting what do you think of the nobles and the bots.

That's almost what I'm doing in my FM "The Plot" :)

LdAMmdhVWTQ

The bot's animations are completed, after the recording of this video, and image this factory fulfilled of machinery that creates parts of robots, and assemble them.

[Tryst]

There should still be a few working units around but they will probably be poorly maintained and easy to put out of action or avoid completely. I envisage a camera eye turning and getting stuck on occasion, jerking a few times as it pans in one direction before continuing to move normally again until it gets to that same spot on the return pan. Maybe a walking bot that turns around and around on the spot on odd occasions with one leg joint jammed for a few seconds, still spouting words of Karras but also saying "I need... Assistance." now and again when it gets stuck. Maybe even one of the guards giving the leg a swift kick to get it moving again and moaning about why the lord keeps these old things around still.

[massimilianogoi]

This could be a good idea! Even if the robots are not properly "old things"...

[jtr7]

I'm not interested in seeing new and improved Mechanist bots. They were clumsy and inefficient under Karras, contrary to his own vision and promises.

What I would not mind is for a fully functional set of bots and editing tools, along with a return of all AI types and then some, so the modding community could go have fun in a new playground, but fictionally, officially, I'm not interested in fully functional Mech tech, or else, used very very sparingly and with a strong sense of sadness and madness.

[R Soul]

I reckon the nobles might try to keep the bots going, but it depends on whether or not Karras's plans became known, and whether or not anyone believed them. Even if the nobles tried to keep the bots, I reckon the guards would sabotage them to protect their jobs. As T3's reference to the Heresy Trials suggests, the Hammerites are not in the business of forgiveness, so I imagine the specialist knowledge would be lost fairly quickly.

[Maethius]

Even without the order of the Mechanists, if a noble has great wealth, sees these as either efficient or as status symbols, he will pay to own them and upkeep them. Why can you still find a 1939 Rolls Royce? They haven't made them for a hell of a long time... because the rich collect and upkeep them. Why not the same thing with Mechanist devices? They were made by brilliant engineers led by a lunatic, but they still detect intruders and stick them full of arrows without hesitation.

[massimilianogoi]

:thumb:

[jtr7]

Even without the order of the Mechanists, if a noble has great wealth, sees these as either efficient or as status symbols, he will pay to own them and upkeep them. Why can you still find a 1939 Rolls Royce? They haven't made them for a hell of a long time... because the rich collect and upkeep them. Why not the same thing with Mechanist devices? They were made by brilliant engineers led by a lunatic, but they still detect intruders and stick them full of arrows without hesitation.

So the one time we find a working death bot, the nobleman owner is shot dead and the thing is out of fuel. :thumb:

[AlexOfSpades]

Hahaha. That would make a nice mission plot.

Thief missions always have a surprise (Gonna rob the local Hammerite church... ops, assassins! Gonna enter the lost caverns... ops, opera house! Gonna meet Sheriff Truart and...)

That would also be one helluva surprise ; Garrett goes to steal a mansion, and ends up knowing that the bots lost notion of friend and foe (how did they recognized that, actually? Not even in real life we have that) and systematically murdered everyone.

And Garrett ends up into the mess.

[jtr7]

The Precursor secrets aren't known to all, so there've got to be casualties with the whole friend and foe mechanism. If a nobleman picked up a bot from someone who the things was programmed to recognize as a friend, but the new owner was not programmed as friend at all--OY!

Walking in and finding the aftermath of a fight, with sawblade/cannonball/bolt damage to the walls, and the bot unfueled after trying to run out the door to the last known position programmed to run to for help/sounding the alarm would fit the gallows humor and world-building.

[R Soul]

notion of friend and foe (how did they recognized that, actually?
I like to think there's some kind of soul trapped in there, like with the Servants but a little more controlled.

[jtr7]

Glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks there's some connection.

[Maethius]

@JTR7-
I like your thinking... always like digging into your posts. :) Oh, I don't think we should see a massive resurgence of Mechanist creations, but I think it would be an interesting mission plot device for Garrett to discover a higher noble is planning a coupe using acquired or copied Mech-tech. It would also be excellent if that tech/Precursor tech-magic were not understood, and the noble's attempt lead to a form of mecha-zombie issue... his creations have gone a bit nuts. Garrett witnesses one of these things going ED-209 at the noble's castle and learns that a huge shipment of them is about to be delivered at the docks. Garrett has to sabotage the ship making the delivery and send the lethal cargo to the bottom of the sea. Could be fun. :)

[jtr7]

:cool: :thumb:

[massimilianogoi]

The Precursor secrets aren't known to all, so there've got to be casualties with the whole friend and foe mechanism. If a nobleman picked up a bot from someone who the things was programmed to recognize as a friend, but the new owner was not programmed as friend at all--OY!

Walking in and finding the aftermath of a fight, with sawblade/cannonball/bolt damage to the walls, and the bot unfueled after trying to run out the door to the last known position programmed to run to for help/sounding the alarm would fit the gallows humor and world-building.

Very funny, but pure fancy: the engineers who followed the Sentinels surely mantained those bots to avoid (even funny, yeah) cases like those.

[Hypevosa]

Given the level of technology, I'm fairly sure the robots wouldn't have been programmed to recognize specific people, so much as general attire, and maybe voices. Richly colored clothing would be a sign that someone important (mechanist, hammer, city watch, or noble), and likely it would not attack those targets. People wearing predominantly blacks and browns would either be up to no good, or could be killed/KOed and later made into a servant. I believe, at least, this is likely how they worked.

[massimilianogoi]

Nope, surely they works with visage recognition.

[Hypevosa]

You find a way to do that without any kind of cybernetics involved, let me know how it goes. I can at least justify the refracting of different frequencies of light to create virtual sight using the special crystals - facial recognition is kind of far far beyond that. It also explains why the mechanists used their unusual colors.

[jtr7]

I'd like to know what was in that huge crate of Gilver's that Garrett had rerouted to Manny, his fence.

[AlexOfSpades]

Yea, i always thought that they worked with some color-pattern/movement recognition.

And using crystals too.

Odd coincidence.

[jtr7]

And Garrett called the lenses "magic" without any trace of sarcasm or awe, just matter-of-factly. Interestingly, and who knows how intentionally, Addonizio crystal chunks are found only in Shipping... and Recieving, having been shipped to Noah Jerm, and in the caves leading to Viktoria's corner of the Maw in Trail of Blood.

[DJ Riff]

You find a way to do that without any kind of cybernetics involved, let me know how it goes.We've already seen crystals which emit light when somebody is present nearby. If they can be connected in controllable chain reaction (via lenses, prisms and mirrors), we'll have a trigger element. So cybernetics is not impossible in Thief world.

[Platinumoxicity]

Everything that's function is unexplained or unknown is known as magic to the unknowing. There is no point in discussing how any of the mechanist machinery works, because it's not Garrett's concern. He's a commoner who probably doesn't know the inner workings of many machines, excluding of course his eye. Not knowing or thinking about the machinery projects to Garrett, which projects it into the player.

[jtr7]

I know that's the knee-jerk reaction, but he lives in a world where magic is not misunderstood secret science, but...magic as a science, where the term is actually correct. The matter-of-fact statement means something else in the context of that universe, which is not ours at all. He's not saying magic lenses the way we would say magic 'shrooms, for instance.

[Maethius]

Now, that would make for a bit of story... I don't know if it would be back story or how it might surface in an new plot (someone is tinkering around with old Mechanist tech?) but what if Karras had a bit of a nasty twist in his Builderism philosophy? I mean, what if he saw magical natural elements as an ironic way to cheat the system... he builds these incredible devices but can't get them to do exactly what he wants without manipulating the magical-natural realm. Much like how his Servants were people manipulated by his mechanical masks, perhaps that manipulation itself was Precursor magic blended with his genius tech?

Wouldn't it be ironic that he used some form of captured natural spirit to give a level of recognition and intelligence to his machines? Karras' dirty little secret? What would happen to those spirits, imprisoned in those machines for so long, and without Karras transmitter to control them? Would they be caught in a mechanical prison? Would they go mad? If those beings could only control plant matter, what if those bots, over a very long time, became overgrown with vines, moss, lichen, etc... and those spirits found they could then manipulate the bots through the plants, like a steam/gear/nature golem?

Gotta write that one down for a fanfic. :D

[jtr7]

It was Precursor tech that inspired and drove it all, and the boiler and gear tech was so much more useful in the innovation, that Karras renounced the Hammer, declaring it obsolete, which was the crux of his heresy.

[massimilianogoi]

... If those beings could only control plant matter, what if those bots, over a very long time, became overgrown with vines, moss, lichen, etc... and those spirits found they could then manipulate the bots through the plants, like a steam/gear/nature golem?

Gotta write that one down for a fanfic. :D

O_o

You sure have alot of fancy... Metal is not attacked by vines, moss, lichen, etc..., only the stone is.

[Maethius]

Really?

How much of this is stone? Artificial Owl (http://www.artificialowl.net/2008/12/abandoned-shipyard-covered-with.html) Or this? (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Q-PuSGjFHvY/Sc75niAfsSI/AAAAAAAADrM/30_Y8GvtrCk/s1600-h/DSC04157.JPG)

Never said anything about metal being attacked by nature... I said overgrown, and that happens all the time.

[jtr7]

Nature will win out, given time, and one only has to move faster than nature to stay ahead of it, and control all factors. WIthout maintenance and replacement parts, nature subsumes all of mankind's works. Magic can hold off the effects of the elements when the tech isn't self-"healing", or sufficiently so. Industry outpaces nature's time-tables, but strong enough tectonic action, clashing warm and cold atmospheric conditions, unpreparedness with volatile or flammable components, meteor/comet/asteroid/supernova events, and/or volcanism or related geomechanisms, can undo anything but maybe some magic, in a brief time. The pagans have magic that accelerates decay and growth, but the Hammerites/Mechanists have magic that weakens the effectiveness of the Pagan magic over a large enough area to matter.