Opinions on a serious subject

[Aquarius]

First, to begin with, to the Mods, this is a serious subject, so if you need to delete it, then I'm fine with that, I'm looking for perspective on what has occurred.

That being said, this is something that I find hard to easily talk about. Well, and it's racism.

This week, someone blew up at my friends and I because they were telling racist jokes, and we didn't care at all to hear negative 'jokes' like that. It's really complicated, and I really don't want to go into it in further detail because it's unpleasant.

Anyway, my question is this, if someone starts off by saying, "Now I'm not racist or anything.....", won't it almost immediately register in your mind as meaning that they are racist? I'm just looking for what other people think, because somehow we're all 'wrong'. How can you say you're not racist, and then go tell jokes like that? If you're not jokes, then you wouldn't tell jokes like that, correct?

Again, sorry to the Moderators if you find this to be too political of a topic, but I'm just mad that this person had the audacity to accuse us of being racist, when he's by far one of the most racist people I've ever met. I'm rambling again, so if you want to delete this, I'll understand.

[THE True Lara]

I think some negative jokes are far far worse than others, some are outmoded and some are just tasteless. It's common sense and good taste, if someone is present who'd be offened by it, then it shouldn't be told.
Some things are funnier than others, and I don't think it's so bad when everyone can laugh at it, but there are a lot of jokes are are just out-dated opinions that only one side of the coin can laugh at, and when it's a situation like that then it is racist.
If someone starts off by saying "Now I'm not racist or anything.....", I don't think it means they are, but yes, it can cast an unconcious aspertion to that effect.
I personally don't like racisit jokes no matter who they're pointed at, but find most nationality jokes fairly funny. Nationality jokes are often more humourous & risk free, and usually have a basis in stereotyping, or social comentry. It's only when something is said from the POV of someone who seriously believes in the stereotype, and there's that nasty feel behind it that things like that go wrong.
Case in point, I got an email about a desert Island scenario a few days back, and I can laugh at it and my friends can laugh at it. It pokes fun at everyone.
It's when a person or race is targetted by a joke that it becomes out of order.
No one should laugh if someone will cry.

...and now I've totally lost track of what I was saying... :confused::rolleyes:

[LARAMANIAC]

I've actually had a very similar experience on more than one occasion myself! I actually think that a lot of people are just ignorant and do not realise the hurt they are actually causing. Over here in the UK a lot of older people actually use racist remarks as part of their everday way of speaking. That is to say the older generation don't seem to realise that using certain words to describe black, Asian, Oriental people is actually quite offensive. As a result their children, my generation, I'm 35, also use these offensive terms quite generally. I was brought up in a foreign country, that is to say South East Asia, and have been brought up to respect other people's cultures and customs. So I guess what I am trying to say amongst all this rambling, is that in my mind it is a matter of how you have been brought up.

Here endeth my sermon, well for today anyway!!!!!
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/angel09.gif

[Deekman]

I once walked away from an Easter Sunday dinner because of somebody attempting to be funny like that. They weren't funny. Not in the least.
Really ticked me off.

The only races I don't like is are the ones with the letters "NASCAR" in front of them.

[Polar_Andromeda]

All I can say is that you were very, very right in refusing to tolerate ignorant jokes like that. I would have been pretty upset, like you were, if I had been in that sort of situation. I get really pissed off that there are still so many people out there that don't know better. When I hear jokes like that, I take them personally b/c I have many friends from different backgrounds, so it feels like they're being insulted when I hear one of those jokes. It's a good thing there are many people like you out there that are willing to stand against that type of nonsense. :)

[Aquarius]

I'll add some of what I said to LM earlier on AIM.

People are more than just colors. Referring to them just by colors is giving them no respect and dignity for the people that they are. We need to go beyond judging people for their, color, race, religion, and judge them for their morals, and how they act in society.

A few weeks ago, I had been at a Leadership Conference, and our speaker, sent quite a bit of time talking about racism. She told us a story about when she went with her husband one time to meet some friends, and one of his friends started telling a racist joke. She didn't let him finish, she said to him, "Wait a minute, my dad is black." (I should mention she is white). Her husband's friend just stared at her. Then she said, "Well he's not, but he could have been."

I don't think it's exactly what you say that matters, it's how people are going to respond to what you say that matters.

[Data]

IMHO Perhaps this discussion would be better suited in the general community chat.

In answer to the topic, I would agree with Aquarius in "I don't think it's exactly what you say that matters, it's how people are going to respond to what you say that matters." Sometimes it is difficult to fathom how any one person may react to a racist remark. ;)

[KoolKat]

I'm a white, Christian/Wiccan and I'd just like to say that you can make any kind of joke about me and I wouldn't care how racist they were against me cos they're only jokes.

If I can take a joke about myself and who I am, why can nobody else?

Look at blonde jokes for example. You could call them prejudice against blondes but they're only meant for a laugh and everyone knows that. No blondes in my year are offended when we tell blonde jokes.

Even if the other people mean it, it's only said words. They can't cause any physical damage.

Ok, I dunno if I made what I was saying clear or not, so just ignore me if you don't think it makes any sense.:p

[dhama]

Originally posted by KoolKat
If I can take a joke about myself and who I am, why can nobody else?


I think the fact that were all individuals and all have differing views and emotional comprehension, suggests that no one can really judge the response from any such racist remark or joke. One can only make sure that one thinks about the outcome or response before it reaches one's mouth.

Did yer hear the one about the........................ :D

[Jorge22]

Jokes are only jokes, you know. In France they tell jokes about the belgiums. In Portugal, we tell jokes about the Alentejanos, also Portuguese who live in a part of our small country. In Brazil they tell jokes about the Portuguese. And yes, there are the dumb blonde jokes (never heard of dumb black girls jokes). Whatever... Not just color.
Now, when somebody who tells some racist joke starts acting as an idiotic racist, then that person has a serious problem (probably of self-image) to deal with...

[HikingBoots]

I think it all depends on how the other person takes it. To some people they're funny, to others, they're not. Personally, I get EXTREMELY offended by jewish jokes. There are some students in my school who like to crack jokes about jews. I'm part jewish, and whenever I hear one, I go nuts.
The general rule is that if you're not sure whether or not the other person will like the joke, don't tell it.

[Jewlia]

The general rule? The general rule? As most aptly sung about in an old Sex Pistols favourite of mine....Never Mind The B***cks, who gives a BEEEEEP about the general rules...

[Data]

who gives a BEEEEEP about the general rules

The TOU does. ;)

[nanakki]

Originally posted by KoolKat
I'm a white, Christian/Wiccan and I'd just like to say that you can make any kind of joke about me and I wouldn't care how racist they were against me cos they're only jokes.

If I can take a joke about myself and who I am, why can nobody else?



because you don't set the standard for 'normality'. no-one should assume that just because they can 'take it' everyone else should be able to as well. and its not the intent behind the words (ie - as a 'joke') that matters, but the effect it ultimately has.

[KoolKat]

I never said I was normal. I never said anyone was normal.

I'm not taking either side, I'm just saying that sometimes, for the sake of peace, if the other person is not meaning it personally, not to get all aggressive. Also, the other person should think about what they're saying and make sure its not too hurtful or horrible.

Ok, I'm going to shut up. I know what I mean, even if you don't so just ignore me. My opinion doesn't matter.

[TDC]

Those who would say "I'm not a racist" as a lead into a racist comment may or may not be, but they certainly are demonstrating otherwise.Originally posted by LARAMANIAC
I actually think that a lot of people are just ignorant and do not realise the hurt they are actually causing. Over here in the UK a lot of older people actually use racist remarks as part of their everday way of speaking. That is to say the older generation don't seem to realise that using certain words to describe black, Asian, Oriental people is actually quite offensive. As a result their children, my generation, I'm 35, also use these offensive terms quite generally. That, to me, is the worst kind of racism. It's the kind where it's done passively, where it's so much a part of a person that they don't even realize that they are doing it. Whether or not the intent is malicious is not the point, and it is no less wrong just because someone "didn't mean it that way." Listeners can't tell the difference.

Devaluing a group of people because of racial hatred is wrong. Devaluing them in casual conversation is no better. Those who say that "everybody does it" are copping out. If you catch yourself doing it - stop. If it was passed on to you, you will likely pass it on in turn. Do your part to end the cycle.

[Aquarius]

Originally posted by Jorge22
Jokes are only jokes, you know. In France they tell jokes about the belgiums. In Portugal, we tell jokes about the Alentejanos, also Portuguese who live in a part of our small country. In Brazil they tell jokes about the Portuguese. And yes, there are the dumb blonde jokes (never heard of dumb black girls jokes). Whatever... Not just color.
Now, when somebody who tells some racist joke starts acting as an idiotic racist, then that person has a serious problem (probably of self-image) to deal with...

Well, if we're going to go with that standard then, let's consider Polish jokes then. I'm 50% Polish, and I find the jokes to be stupid and offensive to me. I do not want people who don't even know me, to think that I'm ignorant just because I'm Polish. I bet there are people out there, who just see that my last name ends with 'ski' and think that I must be some type of moron. And there are people out there who judge you without even knowing you, and they're the worst type of people.

In my Early American Literature class we just recently read an excerpt from Frederick Douglas's autobiography, and there was something written in it, that made a deep impact for me. Mr. Douglas had said that we are not born racist, but we can become racist because of the area that we grow up in.

Racist jokes, whether you find them funny or not, are just furthering a negative stereotype. I have quite a few friends who are African American, and it sickens to me think that there are people out there who just decide they are not honest and respectable people (without knowing them) because of whatever negative things they've heard. By putting the comments into jokes, it's just trying to make a situation funny, that is very serious.

The ex-friend, who was telling the 'jokes', tried to defend himself by saying that all of his African American friends found the jokes to be funny. Since the jokes are more often targetted at African Americans, I have a question for the members here who are African American.

Do you find racist jokes to be funny?

[TDC]

Originally posted by Aquarius
The ex-friend, who was telling the 'jokes', tried to defend himself by saying that all of his African American friends found the jokes to be funny. Since the jokes are more often targetted at African Americans, I have a question for the members here who are African American.

Do you find racist jokes to be funny? As usual, I can only speak for myself.

No, I don't find racist jokes to be funny. I'm not going to act like I'm some holier-than-thou saint - I like jokes that can be considered risque, even offensive. I always consider who might hear before I open my mouth to repeat something like that. If it's a racist joke, I don't care who's around. I've experienced enough racism to know that it's not funny, even if it's not aimed at me.

Your ex-friend sounds very misguided. Unfortunately, when he said that his other friends found it funny, he may very well have been right. But just because others choose ignorance doesn't mean it you have to buy into it. Be better than that.

[Jorge22]

Aquarius, no, I don't find racist jokes particularly funny. But they may be - as any other. Now, if there were no racism, which would be the ideal situation, if everyone were so well brought up and educated that positiveness and fraternity were much more common than they are, the jokes could still exist and they wouldn't offend anyone. There are funny jokes and jokes that aren't funny or not so funny. The fact that a joke can be considered racist makes it less funny or not funny at all if you're too concerned about it, that's a fact. But some may be funny. I wouldn't like it if I were in a place where everyone started telling jokes about the Portuguese and, worst of all, believing that they could portrait something true. I would be offended, of course. I would feel sad about it. But if they just told some joke about the Portuguese, and then some joke on the Americans, and then some on the British, and on the Jews, and on the Polish, anything, and finally everybody went to the restaurant together in perfect harmony, then I wouldn't care. Why? Because although a racist joke might mean the person who tells it is stupid and prejudiced, it might not. It might be only a joke. And furthermore it might even be well imagined as any other joke. So, what do you want me to say? Personally, I'd never think the Polish are stupid because they are portrayed that way in jokes... But then, that's only me.

[Aquarius]

Originally posted by Jorge22
Aquarius, no, I don't find racist jokes particularly funny. But they may be - as any other. Now, if there were no racism, which would be the ideal situation, if everyone were so well brought up and educated that positiveness and fraternity were much more common than they are, the jokes could still exist and they wouldn't offend anyone. There are funny jokes and jokes that aren't funny or not so funny. The fact that a joke can be considered racist makes it less funny or not funny at all if you're too concerned about it, that's a fact.

Personally, I'd never think the Polish are stupid because they are portrayed that way in jokes... But then, that's only me.

I keep trying to make responses that relate back to the original problem, but then it doesn't quite work, and then it's all ahhhh!!! in confusion trying to remember what I wanted to say. :p

I think I have it this time......maybe.

I want to comment the most about what you said, "....they wouldn't offend anyone." I think that's what's the biggest problem. You never know when someone's going to be offended. If you're going to say something that may offend someone, then it's best that you don't say anything. There's a saying in Spanish that I'm reminded of, "A closed mouth gathers no foot." You always have to be careful of how people are going to respond to what you say. You can't just go by your own thoughts and feelings about a subject, you have to be objective and consider all points of views.

I also want to comment about one of the last things you said, the part that starts out, "Personally, I'd never..." The thing is that there are quite a lot people out in the world who are superficial and just go ahead and judge someone based on their appearance, religion, race, nationality, or whatever else there is left to judge on a petty level.

[Arctic_Wolf]

Originally posted by Aquarius
judge them for their morals, and how they act in society.

Morals arn't realy a good thing to go by. They change from time to time and place to place.

For instance, 2000 years ago girls got married as young as 10. The very idea now is considered by most to be abhorant. In germany during the second world war many people thought it was alright to send the jews into death camps. To us, this is abhorant, to them, it isn't.

How they act in society also depends on time and place. For example, in ancient Sparta you were expected to lie, cheat and steal to get ahead. Now-a-days your expected to work hard, tell the truth and be honest.

There is no human alive with a open mind enough to judge anyone else.

[Jorge22]

Well, Aquarius, yes. Confucius also said the wise man rolls his tongue seven times in the mouth befores he says a word. And I agree. But you must realize some people are very susceptible not to say paranoid, whatever reasons may have caused that behavior. In the end, nobody would say a word in fear of hurting somebody else's feelings and the pressure would become too much. Humor always makes fun or someone or something. Racist jokes aren't the best, ok. But let's not stop laughing, at least from time to time. Like everybody else, I have to put up with a lot of things. People who dislike me, people who act mean, you know, the dark side of the world... Well, and what am I going to do about it? Survive. Relax, live my life as well as I can, appreciate the few friends one may really have and understand that very often people aren't really mean and certainly not mean all of the time, just stupid and weak, which is perfectly human as well as the opposite. I'm not sure I'm straying away from the first perspective of this debate but it's all interconnected.

[LARAMANIAC]

Originally posted by TDC
Those who would say "I'm not a racist" as a lead into a racist comment may or may not be, but they certainly are demonstrating otherwise.That, to me, is the worst kind of racism. It's the kind where it's done passively, where it's so much a part of a person that they don't even realize that they are doing it. Whether or not the intent is malicious is not the point, and it is no less wrong just because someone "didn't mean it that way." Listeners can't tell the difference.

Devaluing a group of people because of racial hatred is wrong. Devaluing them in casual conversation is no better. Those who say that "everybody does it" are copping out. If you catch yourself doing it - stop. If it was passed on to you, you will likely pass it on in turn. Do your part to end the cycle.

I totally agree with you TDC, and don't worry I do my part to end the ignorance!

[Solange]

Originally posted by Aquarius
Anyway, my question is this, if someone starts off by saying, "Now I'm not racist or anything.....", won't it almost immediately register in your mind as meaning that they are racist? I'm just looking for what other people think, because somehow we're all 'wrong'. How can you say you're not racist, and then go tell jokes like that? If you're not jokes, then you wouldn't tell jokes like that, correct?

Yes, I think us listeners will think the person is racist! But I don’t think they have to be, I think they can just be really insecure.

Racist jokes as I see it is the worst kind of racism. By turning ignorant remarks and thoughts into a joke is just a way to legitimize a bigot way of thinking. By continuing to spread jokes like that these thoughts become allowed and more widely accepted.

I’m not saying everyone who tells a joke like that is racist, but I do think they promote racist thoughts and behaviour. In a small way, but still!

Where I work the tone of voice can be tough, and sometimes someone tells a joke like that. It makes me feel very bad. These are people I know, like, and otherwise respect. They are not racist, if I presented a “different” boyfriend they probably wouldn’t think about it, but I still think the jokes limit them and narrow their minds. As I like them I don’t want to start a fight with them about what jokes they tell, so for now I just refuse to take part of it. Sometimes I leave the room, and also the “not laughing” method has been effective! When everyone laughs and someone is stern people start to think. So now it hasn’t happened in a long time.

If you wonder, no, it doesn’t happen very often, if it did I would change work place!

Originally posted by Aquarius
A few weeks ago, I had been at a Leadership Conference, and our speaker, sent quite a bit of time talking about racism. She told us a story about when she went with her husband one time to meet some friends, and one of his friends started telling a racist joke. She didn't let him finish, she said to him, "Wait a minute, my dad is black." (I should mention she is white). Her husband's friend just stared at her. Then she said, "Well he's not, but he could have been."

That is wonderful, can I borrow it?

[Aquarius]

Originally posted by Solange
Yes, I think us listeners will think the person is racist! But I don’t think they have to be, I think they can just be really insecure.

Racist jokes as I see it is the worst kind of racism. By turning ignorant remarks and thoughts into a joke is just a way to legitimize a bigot way of thinking. By continuing to spread jokes like that these thoughts become allowed and more widely accepted.

That is wonderful, can I borrow it?

Very good points, and well said too! Knowing this person, it very well may be a way to hide his insecurities (he tries to act all macho, and whatnot :rolleyes: )

It's not really my 'speech' if you will, but our speaker (her name is Harriet Turk, if anyone else has heard/seen her before) urged us to use it if ever the situation should arise. So I think it'd be okay for you to use it too. :p