Necromantic Vampires

[ChocolateRob]

I've just reposted my Soul Reaver 1 plot videos on youtube (chocolatierRob) and I'm in the process of adding extras to the notes, I've used text from the manual for the first 5 vids but I'm having to come up with my own stuff for the last 4. On vid six I've added the following text explaining the nature of vampires in Kain's empire so I thought I'd post it here to get the expert opinions and check my facts.

Necromantic Vampires –
All vampires of Kain’s descent in Nosgoth are created through necromancy as was Kain himself. To create Raziel and his brothers Kain summoned the spirits of fallen Sarafan priests and restored them to their bodies by breathing a little of the vampiric essence from his own soul into theirs. To create their own clans Kain’s ‘sons’ would repeat the process using the bodies of their victims. Presumably Raziel and his brothers have no memories of their previous human lives due to the extended time that their souls were trapped in the spectral realm for (over 500yrs) but we do not know whether their own ‘children’ retain memories of their human lives either. Each of Kain’s sons developed different inherent gifts and each of their clans would develop based on the template of their Sires.
Corruption –
As all necromantic vampires inherit a small portion of Kain’s soul, they unfortunately also inherit the corruption present in Kain’s soul ever since he was cursed by Nupraptor the Mentalist. It is the corruption present in their souls that causes their eventual de-evolution into monstrous forms. The corruption manifests in all of Kain’s descendants but the closer they are to Kain the less it affects them mentally. Kain’s direct sons keep their minds intact despite the corruption of their bodies as do a few of their Elder descendants (such as the Morlock boss) but the more removed from the original vampiric gift the more animalistic the vampire becomes (as a copy of a copy of a copy will degrade).
Cascade reaction –
The form of the vampires manages to remain quite stable for the first millennium of Kain’s rule but Raziel’s evolution of wings appears to be the first step in a cascade reaction that causes the sudden and inevitable decline of the vampire empire. By the time Raziel re-emerges from the abyss (supposedly ‘just’ 500yrs after his execution) most vampires have de-evolved into monstrous forms with animalistic minds.

I do admit to a lot of guess work to fill in the gaps but if anyone spots any glaring errors or wants to recommend adding/changing any points then let me know, all opinions are useful.

[Raziel'sRevenge]

I'd say it's actually quite good, although I have to partially disagree with your reasoning behind the corruption. Yes, Kain was corrupted by Nupraptor's madness but let us not forget that Janos devolved into the beast seen in Blood Omen 2 from his years of imprisonment, and the Hylden have devolved in the Demon dimension. Anyone have thoughts on this? I've assumed that corruption and devolution were products of both Nupraptor and the environment combined, not just one or another, but I could be wrong.

[Aranor]

I too would disagree with your reasonings for the coruption. Only because I would question the act of necromancy on all of the vampire "children". If making the 8 lieutenants drained Kain, I imagine one weaker than he would have a tougher time accomplishing it. The corruption is there no doubt, but I think the means of transferring vampirism went back to the original way after Raziel and his brethren were made. There is nothing to say that Kain can not create a vampire by biting them/letting them drink his blood or however the original transfer was done except the fact we never see him break anyones flesh and let them live.
My guess would be like the essence of vampirism in a vampires blood that causes the change, in Kains vampires there is a similar spiritual essence taking the same effect on the soul.

As for devolving, Jano devolved due to the energy draining effect of the machine. The Hylden did not devolve. They more so distorted. Almost like human flesh under intense heat.

[dumah's wraith]

I too would disagree with your reasonings for the coruption. Only because I would question the act of necromancy on all of the vampire "children". If making the 8 lieutenants drained Kain, I imagine one weaker than he would have a tougher time accomplishing it. The corruption is there no doubt, but I think the means of transferring vampirism went back to the original way after Raziel and his brethren were made. There is nothing to say that Kain can not create a vampire by biting them/letting them drink his blood or however the original transfer was done except the fact we never see him break anyones flesh and let them live.
.

Kain mentions in BO2 that creating other vampires was something he 'could never do'. Making the six lieutenants drained Kain, but there's no reason they others couldn't have perfectd the method later. In the SR1 manual, Raziel states something along the lines of 'Blood is just food, to create a vampire , you must snare a soul from the abyss', so clearly, this is the method, he , at least, used...ie. Kain's method, or something to do with souls rather than blood.

Chocolaterob, there's some guesswork in your summary, but nothing than can canonically be proven obviously wrong. I always thought that the corruption of Kain's lieutenants was just due to massive shortages of prey because there wasn't enough humans left to sustain them, so they devolved. That's just my opinion.

[Aranor]

I stand corrected.
Seems a bit out of place though if that is the way a vampire is made, yet Raziel knew so little of the underworld in SR1. Though it could have been entirely for gameplay purposes. Not to mention just how many necromantic practices would be taken place among the vampire legions.

[TheSquid]

Yeah. The corruption details. I think they left that vague for their own convenience so once they came up with an ending it could easily be made to fit by just filling in the specifics last.

We kind of saw Rahab & Zephon using a weird reproduction method after they were hideous. Like nests or pods where the corrosive goo of vampire-ness was sloshed together with human remains till it hatched. I guess we weren't there for the first step when the boss made an appearance and did the birth-miracle-soul-grab thing. It'd be easy to imagine Melchiah and Zephon and Dumah dipping into spectral to do the deed because they had spectral experience, (though some say Zephon appearing in spectral was just a game bug). Lt. Raziel isn't known to have any spectral knowledge, ironically. He must have been proficient at it though even before the devolving stage. So I guess at first the ritual probably looked a lot different from the hideous vampire spawning we saw. More like a seance?

I've also noticed that devolving is a theme used throughout the series, beyond just with the necrovampires, RazielsRevenge. Janos was drained in spirit. You could say the lieutenants were low on spirit too, since theirs had rotted like an old bell pepper you've forgotten in the fridge for weeks. The hylden were behind the events that made the necros devolve, and were more directly doing it to Audron. And they were deformed as well, all the while they caused others to deform. Hmmm. An eye for an eye justice, performed magically? Maybe it all traces back to how Vampires = The Barrier. If you can sicken them in spirit, you weaken the barrier.

[The Hylden]

Actually, all of your points, ChocolateRob, are directly confirmed by the creators here, so you don't have to worry about it being guesswork to fill in the gaps. I'll list the quotes:

Mortanius raised Kain by necromancy -- this gives Kain a unique vampiric heritage.
Because of this unique heritage, Kain's method of creating his vampire "sons" is also unique -- rather than using the traditional "blood" gift to create a vampire, Kain must donate a portion of his spirit. By breathing a portion of his soul into a corpse, that creature's soul is drawn back into the body and the creature is resurrected as a vampire. This is how Kain raised his six lieutenants in the Tomb of Sarafan.

From the Soul Reaver 1 manual dm was referring to:

Raziel: The humans think it is a poison of the blood that makes us what we are. Fools, the blood only feeds the bodies we live in. To create a vampire, one must steal a soul from the Abyss to reanimate the corpse. It is the body that demands the blood sacrifice; our souls gain their advantage from the powers of the Underworld.

(I seem to remember having a debate a while back about whether, or not, the Lieutenants use the soul method to raise their kin. I don't think I used this quote, so I should remember it for the future...)

One thing I will correct you on, CR, is the length of time the Sarafan Priests spent in the Underworld. It was 1,000 years. I know you wrote over 500, but it was 500 years in the past from BO1's present, and it takes 400 years from then until the gameplay of BO2, and in the opening text, BO2 states that it will be another 100 years from this point that Kain raises Raziel and the rest.

On the corruption: RR and Aranor, I believe CR only meant that the corruption in regards to Kain's lineage was a direct result of Kain being infected with the rest of the Guardians from Nupraptor's madness, and in this he's totally correct. Other beings, like Janos, and the Hylden race, have nothing to do with this.

Q: Why did Kain's lieutenants and their children in Soul Reaver 1 devolve? Was it because each of them inherited the corruption from his soul?
A: Yes, it was because of the corruption of Kain's soul. The amount of devolution was directly related to how much of his soul they received.
Q: Why didn't Kain evolve any further once Raziel had grown his wings?
A: The corruption inherited by the Lieutenants was what caused their faster evolution - and later their devolution. Kain is not necessarily influenced in the same way.

This entirely backs up what you state, CR, about the speed of the increase in the evolution/devolution process. The Lieutenants and their ilk got worse over time, quicker, like ticking timebombs toward ultimate ruin...

So, yeah, this is all basically correct. I know as time goes on, it's hard to remember every detail, but that is the other beauty of having interviews to check and sources like the instruction book of SR1. As long as we have those and the games, as well as our own memories, LoK will live on. :)

Squid:

I love how you love to state things out of fics, or your own imagination as game facts :p However, regarding the Rahab pods and the Zephon eggs: Rahab's children might only have been cocooned to go into their states of change, meaning they were already vamps before going into the pods. Zephon's eggs were basically little explody organic bombs, that did not hatch little vampires, so it's hard to say they functioned as anything more than that. Perhaps it's simply a defect of devolving into a creature like an insect queen of some species that would lay eggs, when the vampire, himself, remained sterile. All vampires are, as Janos tells us.

Melchiah is the only real one who is said to be barely more than a corpse and more connected to the Underworld because of it. Besides Zephon's flashing in Spectral during the game, I don't think he would be so connected. Dumah only knows of Spectral after having his soul trapped there, like all vampires' souls of Kain's lineage, after his body was impaled. His soul, like the other Wraiths in the game, is locked to his body and festers in the Spectral realm until it evolves to consume souls, instead of blood. So, that has nothing to do with him beforehand being an expert about Spectral.

Saying they all could pull a Soul from the Underworld/Spectral, and stating that they have expert experience with it, are far different things. As far as it's stated, Kain breathing a portion of his soul into the body of a corpse was enough to rip the soul of the being from its place in Spectral. I see no reason that the Lieutenants would be taught any different. Again, back to why they aren't weakened: time for their souls to recuperate between raising another clan member. I still see no reason why this is doubted, or any alternative that makes sense.

Janos is drained of blood, not spirit, and not because of the Hylden's meddling on him, or something. He states:

Janos:
Not dead, but imprisoned in this place. My blood was needed to power the Device and feed the Mass within. Starved of blood and sapped of life, I devolved into that horrible creature. The moment you poisoned the Mass, I felt my strength return. That which is divine cannot be wholly suppressed.

"Blood is the life," as Kain put it, meaning it fuels the body, so that's what he was drained of. He states his devolution as if it only was a natural reaction of his body to being so weakened, not that the Hylden's magic was at work, or that some other force was to blame. As soon as his own blood was restored, Janos' body restored itself.

[Aranor]

I guess I am getting my logic from the only ritual we are privy to seeing. The one in the beginning of Blood Omen. We see that by simply accepting Mortanius's offer Kain becomes a vampire. We find out later it was more involved.


On a side note, given the time Janos spent in the spectral realm, think there is potential for him to be able to feed on souls as well? We never do get to see him feed.

[TheSquid]

[Insert something snarky here] :rasp:

So in your estimation it's a normal occurence when someone gets tired and transforms into a demon. It's only to be expected. That's something to be calm about and not look into it any further. Okay. Look to your quote: Sapped of life = low on spirit. He was being drained in totality. And something demonic was revealed. And the hylden were responsible, both for it and the corruption forced onto necrovampires, which also revealed something demonic in them. It's not some kind of way out there conjecture, it's an observable trend.

That was a good catch about how the squirming zephon cocoons may have been state-of-change nests and not vampire conversions in progress. And I never mentioned Zeph-eggs, but that'd be a nice touch if his bug reproduction organs yielded bomb eggs, evolution still failing to overcome the curse.

---
Janos' curse isn't based on his soul like Dumah's, so Janos' soul might not have ridden the same roller coaster in spectral? He might have been immaculately preserved just as he'd always been by the special circumstance of the heart's continued beating?

[ChocolateRob]

Thanks all for your contributions. I would have checked in sooner but I forgot to set up the thread to Email me whenever a reply was posted. It seems I can leave the notes as they are on my video.

The only point I'll raise here though is that I stated 'over 500 years' for the time the souls wait in the underworld because I did not want to assume the time periods stated in Blood Omen 2 apply to the timeline in Soul Reaver 1 as SR1 exists in a subtly different, earlier timeline to BO2.
The events between BO1 and SR1 may not be in the exact same timescale as they are after the BO2 timeline is created, once the BO2 timeline is created then it is accurate to state that there is a 1000 year period between the Sarafan's deaths and rebirths.

I may bring up the above as a point in the BO2 videos when I make them but it sure as hell can be confusing.
As there are three points in the LoK story where history is altered then there are four separate timelines involved, each one replacing the previous when a Reaver paradox occurs. We only ever see specific areas of each timeline in each game. In BO1 we see the earliest timeline for most of the game but when Kain kills William history is altered and we can no longer access the original timeline again, all events we see in later games are based off of a new timeline and we can no longer see Nosgoth without the renewed vampire purges despite having spent most of the first game without them existing.
The events of SR1 we never see again once the BO2 timeline is created, we know that the new SR1 must go pretty much the same way as the original but more subtle things such as dates and time periods could be different. (basically it may not have taken Kain 500yrs to raise his lieutenants in the 2nd of the 4 known timelines).
OK I'm starting to ramble and get off track a bit here. Should this issue go on then the thread title will be pretty meaningless, oh well.

Anyway I've finished SR1 and have posted all the updated SR2 vids now, I'm just letting this thread distract me from thinking up how to finish off the SR2 notes.
I've still to make the updated BO2 vids but the Defiance vids are ready to fly.

[ChocolateRob]

Oh, I forgot to mention. I assumed that Zephon began to create his children within his own body. He kills humans when he feeds on them and absorbs the body into himself. Next he turns them into vampires by putting a piece of his soul into (whatever remains of) the body thus recalling the human's soul from the Spectral Realm. Finally he hatches out the body in an egg which will then pupate into a fledgling over time.
A rather messy proccess to reflect his de-evolved nature. When the fledgling 'enters the state of change' it retreats into the webbed cocoon form seen around the Silenced Cathedral.
I wouldn't be surprised if Melchiah did something similar with pieces of his stitched on flesh sloughing off into fledglings, that would look interesting in a hi-def remake.
This method would only apply to the massively mutated clan leaders of course.

[Velnarin]

It's much simpler really. Every lieutenant inherited a certain gift from Kain along with the corruption of his soul that was later passed to their vampire offspring. As put by Marcus in BO2, the Dark Gifts manifest differently in each of the vampires. The dark gifts Kain had passed to his 'sons' were initially rudimentary and developed later superior of Kain's own similar powers (Kain was resistant to rain but he could not swim like Rahab).
The same thing happened to the lieuts' children. They all inherited their masters' dark gifts and their corruption which they [lieutenants] acquired at the moment of their resurrection. Which caused their further general devolution.
It is not necessary that Zephon of Rahab had to force their offsping's devolution. Although from what I can remember the zephonim vampires in SR1 seemed to construct cocoons around their victims' bodies in order to transform their human form into that of the zephonim.

And yeah, sorry the language, English isn't my native.

[Graz'zt]

Although from what I can remember the zephonim vampires in SR1 seemed to construct cocoons around their victims' bodies in order to transform their human form into that of the zephonim.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

I don't think that was why they did that, I think they were simply storing food. Spiders wrap their prey in silk and will keep it on their webs until they get hungry. I think the zephonim are doing the samething as spiders and it has nothing to do with making new vampires.

But I do have two questions, why does everyone seem to think Kain is green? Are they playing different games than I am?

Also at the end of Defiance when Raziel heals Kain everyone seems to think Raziel heals everything BUT his heart. That doesn't make sense. In order to tear out someone's heart you would have to tear through skin, muscles, break the ribs, pull out or break the sternum, and then tear out chunks of lungs which then deflate. So "the heartless" post healing people seem to think all of that was healed but the easiest to regrow and fix (the heart) just didn't happen. I don't think so.

[Escaton]

But this is a series in the dark fantasy genre, not a scientific study into the effects on biology when commingled with magical spirit energy. Not only does the idea of Kain regrowing his heart pointlessly negate the entire sense of drama "I always was considered heartless", it's also unnecessary to the plot and to the fictional universe's logic (nothing else in Nosgoth ever regrew a heart as far as we know).

[Linikratyo]

But this is a series in the dark fantasy genre, not a scientific study into the effects on biology when commingled with magical spirit energy. Not only does the idea of Kain regrowing his heart pointlessly negate the entire sense of drama "I always was considered heartless", it's also unnecessary to the plot and to the fictional universe's logic (nothing else in Nosgoth ever regrew a heart as far as we know).

He doesn't grow one, he simply doesn't need one x)

[Graz'zt]

He says "I always was concidered heartless" before Raziel healed him. In fantasy roleplaying games the spell "regenerate" re-grows lost body parts including organs. What Raziel does to Kain is essentially cast a regenerate spell on him. Further, when you watch someone you care about get pulled into the sword and then see and fight a giant monster you're not going to have time to notice or think about having a heart again. It's simple logic, that you wouldn't heal the outside but leave the inside destroyed.

[Nessdark]

Actually, all of your points, ChocolateRob, are directly confirmed by the creators here, so you don't have to worry about it being guesswork to fill in the gaps. I'll list the quotes:



From the Soul Reaver 1 manual dm was referring to:



(I seem to remember having a debate a while back about whether, or not, the Lieutenants use the soul method to raise their kin. I don't think I used this quote, so I should remember it for the future...)

One thing I will correct you on, CR, is the length of time the Sarafan Priests spent in the Underworld. It was 1,000 years. I know you wrote over 500, but it was 500 years in the past from BO1's present, and it takes 400 years from then until the gameplay of BO2, and in the opening text, BO2 states that it will be another 100 years from this point that Kain raises Raziel and the rest.

On the corruption: RR and Aranor, I believe CR only meant that the corruption in regards to Kain's lineage was a direct result of Kain being infected with the rest of the Guardians from Nupraptor's madness, and in this he's totally correct. Other beings, like Janos, and the Hylden race, have nothing to do with this.



This entirely backs up what you state, CR, about the speed of the increase in the evolution/devolution process. The Lieutenants and their ilk got worse over time, quicker, like ticking timebombs toward ultimate ruin...

So, yeah, this is all basically correct. I know as time goes on, it's hard to remember every detail, but that is the other beauty of having interviews to check and sources like the instruction book of SR1. As long as we have those and the games, as well as our own memories, LoK will live on. :)

Squid:

I love how you love to state things out of fics, or your own imagination as game facts :p However, regarding the Rahab pods and the Zephon eggs: Rahab's children might only have been cocooned to go into their states of change, meaning they were already vamps before going into the pods. Zephon's eggs were basically little explody organic bombs, that did not hatch little vampires, so it's hard to say they functioned as anything more than that. Perhaps it's simply a defect of devolving into a creature like an insect queen of some species that would lay eggs, when the vampire, himself, remained sterile. All vampires are, as Janos tells us.

Melchiah is the only real one who is said to be barely more than a corpse and more connected to the Underworld because of it. Besides Zephon's flashing in Spectral during the game, I don't think he would be so connected. Dumah only knows of Spectral after having his soul trapped there, like all vampires' souls of Kain's lineage, after his body was impaled. His soul, like the other Wraiths in the game, is locked to his body and festers in the Spectral realm until it evolves to consume souls, instead of blood. So, that has nothing to do with him beforehand being an expert about Spectral.

Saying they all could pull a Soul from the Underworld/Spectral, and stating that they have expert experience with it, are far different things. As far as it's stated, Kain breathing a portion of his soul into the body of a corpse was enough to rip the soul of the being from its place in Spectral. I see no reason that the Lieutenants would be taught any different. Again, back to why they aren't weakened: time for their souls to recuperate between raising another clan member. I still see no reason why this is doubted, or any alternative that makes sense.

Janos is drained of blood, not spirit, and not because of the Hylden's meddling on him, or something. He states:



"Blood is the life," as Kain put it, meaning it fuels the body, so that's what he was drained of. He states his devolution as if it only was a natural reaction of his body to being so weakened, not that the Hylden's magic was at work, or that some other force was to blame. As soon as his own blood was restored, Janos' body restored itself.
Marry me!

I MEAN, ERr... Great reply. Very informative and accurate. Probably the best post in this thread.