those takedowns are going the game

[m3do]

i'm sorry if this been mentiond before i'm new and i just came here say that they are cheap,lazy,lame,cliched,and they just make the game too easy i mean what is the piont of using stealth or shooting people just approach them before they can notce you and that triggers the takedown scene and that's it, please eidos it seems that you took your time to make the game feel like the original and it looks awesome do anything about them at least make them optional

[Ashpolt]

OK, I can't believe I'm going to be the one to defend this game here, but...

Takedowns are optional already. You don't have to use them, there are still guns for you to use - both lethal and non-lethal, so you'll still have the choice of leaving a trail of unconscious bodies rather than dead ones if you so choose, same as if you used takedowns.

That said, they have taken out melee weapons, so you won't be able to play a close combat character without using the takedowns, so if that's your chosen style, rage away.

[m3do]

i'm not trolling i love the first two games and this one looks awesome just these takedown that are bothering me

[VectorM]

The takedowns will stay, sorry.

[CoDEllite]

Uhm NO. Dude, the takedowns is how new players who never played a Deus Ex game will be attracted to this game. And besides did you see how sick they look? I never played the old Deus Ex but man the gameplay trailer totally sold me on Human Revolution. I showed the video to my homie and he was like "S!@t I wanna do that! This game is sick bro!". Eidos is on the right track. Why develop something specifically for a small group who'll always find something that doesn't match their expectations. And while this game won't be anywhere as huge as Black Ops, the developers still want it ti sell decent amount of copies to warrant a sequel.

[WildcatPhoenix]

i'm not trolling i love the first two games and this one looks awesome just these takedown that are bothering me

Don't get upset. We've just been beating each other up over takedowns for months now, so we're all a little tired of the same argument.

Uhm NO. Dude, the takedowns is how new players who never played a Deus Ex game will be attracted to this game. And besides did you see how sick they look? I never played the old Deus Ex but man the gameplay trailer totally sold me on Human Revolution. I showed the video to my homie and he was like "S!@t I wanna do that! This game is sick bro!". Eidos is on the right track. Why develop something specifically for a small group who'll always find something that doesn't match their expectations. And while this game won't be anywhere as huge as Black Ops, the developers still want it ti sell decent amount of copies to warrant a sequel.

Ok, now this makes me cry a little bit inside.

[AlexOfSpades]

Uhm NO. Dude, the takedowns is how new players who never played a Deus Ex game will be attracted to this game. And besides did you see how sick they look? I never played the old Deus Ex but man the gameplay trailer totally sold me on Human Revolution. I showed the video to my homie and he was like "S!@t I wanna do that! This game is sick bro!". Eidos is on the right track. Why develop something specifically for a small group who'll always find something that doesn't match their expectations. And while this game won't be anywhere as huge as Black Ops, the developers still want it ti sell decent amount of copies to warrant a sequel.

The first Deus Ex sold very, very well and earned many awards - more than your Black Ops - without any "super sick takedown, bro".


Therefore, there IS a very wide array of players which would buy and play the game even if it didnt followed the "modern audience" crap.

To put it shortly, we don't need any new players. Specially the basement-dwellers that Ashpolt calls "Johnny Halo's".

Takedowns were a bad decision from Eidos.

And to the OP: Yeah, they won't change it. Although i think the game will be a great game, even with the takedowns and third person and so on.

But i'm just an optimistic 'tard.

[Red]

i accidentally this post

[m3do]

may be they won't be this bad for the run and gun type of play but they will ruin the stealth approach i hoping they at least use points system meaning you have to earn those takdowns

[Jerion]

Well, you can't exactly run around taking down several people on a whim. Not without sacrificing other functionality. How you play the game and orchestrate plans is part of the regular decision-making.

[Fluffis]

Ok, now this makes me cry a little bit inside.

Really? It made me throw up in my mouth a bit.

[WildcatPhoenix]

Really? It made me throw up in my mouth a bit.

Good point. Maybe those weren't tears coming out of my eyes, but bile instead?

I leave you all with that tasty image. :p

[mentalkase]

This troll couldn't be more obvious unless he had 'oh btw I AM A GIANT TROLL' after every post.

[LeMoN_LiMe]

I don't understand why people complain about this. As long as the takedown doesn't initiate until your right up on someone then what is the problem?

Do you want Wii like controls where you are punching in real life for the takedowns? Do you want it like the original Deus Ex where you press a button on your controller or keyboard and Adam swings his arms or crowbar and knocks the enemy out?

Wait a second, isn't that exactly the same?

Pressing a button to hit someone with a crowbar and killing them is EXACTLY the same as pressing a button to initiate a cool looking Jet Li like takedown and killing someone. Your still pressing a button and someone dies.

Now in Assassins Creed, if an enemy begins to yell and you initiate a takedown, then he is instantly interrupted and you are still incognito with a silent takedown which in my opinion is kind of cheap. As long as this isn't the case and the takedowns aren't able to be taken advantage of then what is the problem?

For all of you that wan't a more "realistic" takedowns, you need to do two things:

1. Go play Wii / Playstation Move fighting games where you punch in a "realistic" sense to takedown enemies.
2. Stop playing futuristic games. If you have a problem with a blade coming out of someones arm, then go play Sims or something "realistic".

A button is a button. A takedown is a takedown. All your doing is pressing a button either way.

[Dead-Eye]

Well, you can't exactly run around taking down several people on a whim. Not without sacrificing other functionality.
I'm guessing this is about energy pips or whatever and that each takedown requires one pip of energy which in turn then can't be used for other augs.

Honestly this is one of my biggest disappointments in Human Revaluation thus far. I'm not talking from the die hard prospective here ether. It's my biggest disappointment in how they implemented something new thus far.

Look they have this guy (Adam) who has Flip-Sniping Blades that come out of his arms and the best thing they could think to do with them is use them for takedowns? I mean really, they could have taken this idea so much further. Takedowns are just so boring when you could be playing a close combat tank with dual arm blades of death. It would be way more fun to have something where you actually get to use these blades rather then just watch Adam use them for us.

Edit: Hell they already added 3ed person why not just create a combat system for using the blades completely in 3ed person, much like bloodlines or Batman:AA or something. Anything would be better then just takedowns.

[WildcatPhoenix]

Pressing a button to hit someone with a crowbar and killing them is EXACTLY the same as pressing a button to initiate a cool looking Jet Li like takedown and killing someone. Your still pressing a button and someone dies.



A button is a button. A takedown is a takedown. All your doing is pressing a button either way.

Nope. Incorrect.

At no time during the melee animation in Deus Ex is the player reduced to a passive observer. He might miss completely with his attack. He can turn his head, strafe, do a little dance, whatever- rather than set his controller down and drool at the super l33t r0x0rz takedownz.

[LeMoN_LiMe]

At no time during the melee animation in Deus Ex is the player reduced to a passive observer. He might miss completely with his attack. He can turn his head, strafe, do a little dance, whatever- rather than set his controller down and drool at the super l33t r0x0rz takedownz.[/QUOTE]

Oh really? So after you clicked your mouse or pressed R1 and Denton's arm with a crowbar started to move, what were you doing? Were you pressing buttons telling him exactly what force to hit the guy with or which fingers grip the crowbar the tightest while you swing it?

No. You were sitting there watching Denton swing the crowbar and kill someone after you pressed the button.

You pressed a button and watched the enemy die.

Or were you in the game swinging the crowbar yourself?

Oh yes sir you TRULY have the smarts.

[kud13]

important distinction
when using melee weapons (esp the prod) there is always the chance you'll miss. and then the guard will turn around, and (if you're playing on realistic) he'll blow your head off with one shot.

when you press a button and initiate a takedown, THERE IS NO CHANCE OF FAILURE.
thus we are deprived of freedom. Freedom to fail. Freedom to learn from mistakes.

THAT is the main flaw of "cinematic takedowns" of any kind.

EDIT: not to mention that in DX, while you pressed the button and saw JC swing the weapon and kill someone, another guard could've shot him in the back. During a takedown, Adam is invincible, as befits a cutscene.

EM told us that Hacking was gonna be real-time, in order to correct for DX's ridiculousness, when a guard would politely wait for you to finish reprogramming that turret that would kill him, instead of shooting JC, while he's glued to a screen. And then they went and made the same mistake with takedowns.

[KSingh77]

I thought I was playing a game.

Not watching a Bourne movie.

[Dead-Eye]

During a takedown, Adam is invincible, as befits a cutscene.

I'm fairly sure this has been confirmed as untrue. In fact from everything we have heard it sounds like takedowns are going to cost energy, still leave you venerable to shots and take way too long. Strangly enough, is sounds like this feature is going to be too dice roll oriented and not enough action oriented for a Deus Ex game. At lest it will have passing that would fit well in step to Deus Ex.

[K^2]

Strangely enough, is sounds like this feature is going to be too dice roll oriented and not enough action oriented for a Deus Ex game.
Well, yeah. When you have health regeneration, "dice roll" mechanic is pretty much the only way to level the field. They are going for difficulty of frustrating kind, rather than challenging kind, where you might have to try a section again and again until the dice roll favorably.

[LeMoN_LiMe]

important distinction
when using melee weapons (esp the prod) there is always the chance you'll miss. and then the guard will turn around, and (if you're playing on realistic) he'll blow your head off with one shot.

when you press a button and initiate a takedown, THERE IS NO CHANCE OF FAILURE.
thus we are deprived of freedom. Freedom to fail. Freedom to learn from mistakes.

THAT is the main flaw of "cinematic takedowns" of any kind.

EDIT: not to mention that in DX, while you pressed the button and saw JC swing the weapon and kill someone, another guard could've shot him in the back. During a takedown, Adam is invincible, as befits a cutscene.

EM told us that Hacking was gonna be real-time, in order to correct for DX's ridiculousness, when a guard would politely wait for you to finish reprogramming that turret that would kill him, instead of shooting JC, while he's glued to a screen. And then they went and made the same mistake with takedowns.

So besides the fact Dead-Eye just shot your argument down like a paper airplane tied to a lead weight, I'm going to take joy in doing so further.

Play Deus Ex again noob. When you "miss" with a crowbar or riot prod, nothing happens. The enemy doesn't turn around. They don't hear it. They don't to a thing. You simply re-take aim and do it again.

As far as frontal assault is concerned, you can enjoy your unrealistic Elder Scrolls arm flailing with a blade movements. I will take my bad ass Jet Li (like anyone with a blade would want to be like) with a blade moves any day. And if you saw someone from the front, you'd shoot them anyways.

Also if you missed while trying to hit someone from behind in the original Deus Ex, you shouldn't be playing video games. Go play Black Ops noob.

[Jerion]

Well, yeah. When you have health regeneration, "dice roll" mechanic is pretty much the only way to level the field. They are going for difficulty of frustrating kind, rather than challenging kind, where you might have to try a section again and again until the dice roll favorably.

Gives a strog incentive to draw each opponent off individually, a bit like Mirror's Edge.

[kud13]

So besides the fact Dead-Eye just shot your argument down like a paper airplane tied to a lead weight, I'm going to take joy in doing so further.

Play Deus Ex again noob. When you "miss" with a crowbar or riot prod, nothing happens. The enemy doesn't turn around. They don't hear it. They don't to a thing. You simply re-take aim and do it again.

As far as frontal assault is concerned, you can enjoy your unrealistic Elder Scrolls arm flailing with a blade movements. I will take my bad ass Jet Li (like anyone with a blade would want to be like) with a blade moves any day. And if you saw someone from the front, you'd shoot them anyways.

Also if you missed while trying to hit someone from behind in the original Deus Ex, you shouldn't be playing video games. Go play Black Ops noob.

yawn
mebbe if you play on easy.
on realistic, guards notice.

FYI, i have dx installed right now. Sadly, with exams coming up, little time to play.

and my rustiness is reason for insults, lol. unless it's the only argument you have.
and please, don't try to flaunt your personal preferences as the infallible truth. not everyone likes what you like. it's not the end of the world. Tastes differ, move on.

@ Dead-eye: that sounds like good news. I'd like to see them show Adam get killed mid-take-down, though, before I fully believe it, :D

[KSingh77]

Adam can't get killed during takedowns,the enemies will just stand there while their buddy is getting sliced.

Maybe have a smoke or play some poker.

[Pinky_Powers]

Adam can't get killed during takedowns,the enemies will just stand there while their buddy is getting sliced.

Maybe have a smoke or play some poker.

If by "have a smoke" and "play some poker" you mean "react to your presence" and "shoot at you", then you're absolutely right. :D

I'm not sure you can be killed while performing a takedown, but the game world does not freeze for you; that much is plain in the E3 Demo footage.

Also, taking into account the design decision to leave the player vulnerable during hacking and god knows what else, leads me to give EM the benefit of the doubt on this score.

[Kodaemon]

i accidentally this post

i see what you there

[Dead-Eye]

@ Dead-eye: that sounds like good news. I'd like to see them show Adam get killed mid-take-down, though, before I fully believe it, :D

We'll Jerion's played the game and he just posted this:
Gives a strog incentive to draw each opponent off individually, a bit like Mirror's Edge.
Fairly strong indication that takedowns are not invincible.

[K^2]

That's a stretch. Regardless of whether you are invincible during the take-down, having somebody else standing there, ready to shoot at you as soon as the animation is done, is still a good incentive not to use take-downs when other opponents are present. Yet, it does not make situation any less ridiculous.

I have no idea how they are really handling take-downs, but they look like fixed animation sequences. So either you start a take-down, and everyone is waiting for it to complete; or start a take-down, get spotted by someone else who starts shooting at you, and you have no choice but to stare as AJ continues the move, oblivious to the damage he is taking, unable to do anything about it as the player. Either way is bad, and EM would likely choose the former.

[IOOI]

I think that, if we could cancel the takedown animation, Adam should be able to either push the NPC and make a run for it or use the NPC as a meat-shield.

It wouldn't be as frustrating.

[K^2]

That'd do. But I don't see anything to suggest they even considered this a problem.

[Pinky_Powers]

That'd do. But I don't see anything to suggest they even considered this a problem.

Indeed. They seem quite proud of it all, actually. :D

[Ninjerk]

That's a stretch. Regardless of whether you are invincible during the take-down, having somebody else standing there, ready to shoot at you as soon as the animation is done, is still a good incentive not to use take-downs when other opponents are present. Yet, it does not make situation any less ridiculous.

I have no idea how they are really handling take-downs, but they look like fixed animation sequences. So either you start a take-down, and everyone is waiting for it to complete; or start a take-down, get spotted by someone else who starts shooting at you, and you have no choice but to stare as AJ continues the move, oblivious to the damage he is taking, unable to do anything about it as the player. Either way is bad, and EM would likely choose the former.

Wasn't there a comment about this during the demo when Adam jumps down and claymores those 4 guys? I know they had invincibility on, but I think I remember them saying something about other guards firing and Adam taking damage during the takedown.

I wouldn't be surprised if the takedowns get "VATSed."

[Pinky_Powers]

VATS'ed in what way? That you can select different body parts, or... what? :scratch:

[Irate Iguana]

VATS'ed in what way? That you can select different body parts, or... what? :scratch:

Probably means that you will take very reduced damage (if any at all) as long as you are in the takedown animation.

[Kodaemon]

Speaking of VATS, New Vegas (yes, I caved in and bought it, then cracked it to get rid of Steam) has a new gimmick where it goes into a VATS-like kill cam mode sometimes when you score a kill normally. I had to turn it off to play comfortably.

Why? The problem is, it also goes into kill-cam mode when your companions score a kill, which turns you in the direction of the freshly killed enemy. So, it's easy to lose your bearings. I'm afraid I'll have the same problem with the HR takedowns, especially the more flashy ones.

[AlexOfSpades]

Speaking of VATS, New Vegas (yes, I caved in and bought it, then cracked it to get rid of Steam) has a new gimmick where it goes into a VATS-like kill cam mode sometimes when you score a kill normally. I had to turn it off to play comfortably.

Why? The problem is, it also goes into kill-cam mode when your companions score a kill, which turns you in the direction of the freshly killed enemy. So, it's easy to lose your bearings. I'm afraid I'll have the same problem with the HR takedowns, especially the more flashy ones.

Argh, it happens everytime. I deactivated it too. In first place i just changed it to first-person, but then it started to look like bullet time. But what kind of bullet time activates only when the danger went away?

I hated that, but THANKS GOD! They included an option to take it off. Phew!!!

[TrickyVein]

^^ You said so yourself, such an extra-vats, kill-cam feature is toggleable - such a simple, easy solution that satisfies both kinds of players. I can't think of any reason why other questionable features of DX:HR's gameplay shouldn't also be toggleable via an in-game or start-up menu. Can you? There's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[Pinky_Powers]

I'm afraid I'll have the same problem with the HR takedowns, especially the more flashy ones.

That's an ugly thought! :eek:

But I'm thinking this won't be the case. Even the old E3 footage showed how the camera came back in a comprehensive way behind your eyes... unlike Fallout. The only time it seems a little confusing was with the wild Claymore thing, and I'd chalk up most of that to the fact he dropped in from the roof and did two different Augs before ever getting a baring on his surroundings. :nut:

[sonicsidewinder]

someone put a stop to this...this massacre!

[Pinky_Powers]

Massacre is an important practice for the youngsters. Give them leave to indulge their darker instincts and they'll turn out as right and bright as me, who types this now with his teeth buried deep into the flesh of another human.

[m3do]

the proplems with the takedowns is not about taking damage or being realistic the real proplem that you don't do any thing you just get close and let jenson do all the hard work they may look cool but after a while they will become repetitive and boring

[BigBoss]

To put it shortly, we don't need any new players. Specially the basement-dwellers that Ashpolt calls "Johnny Halo's".


whether you like it or not, devs need "Johnny Halo's" to buy games as well to sustain theselves on their 40-50 million $ projects. It's not like deus ex was made for the sake of pleasing a small group, they made it because they thought the idea was good enouh to sell well. EVERY game company, none excluded, are a business first.

With regards to the takedowns, what do you guys think would be better? Don't say the old 'fling your fists in front of your face' technique like oblivion or something, because that's sooo dated.

[oscarMike]

the proplems with the takedowns is not about taking damage or being realistic the real proplem that you don't do any thing you just get close and let jenson do all the hard work they may look cool but after a while they will become repetitive and boring

This guy is not a troll!! He's just stating his opinion! He already said that he played first two games and liked them! Unlike many members here that HAVEN'T played neither of the previous games and still fell competent enough to critisize and talk about them which, actually, CAN be considered a real trolling!

Takedowns ARE ingame cinematics and they DO look to simple, easy, repetitive, something you would input in a game just to gain mainstream audience...

[IOOI]

With regards to the takedowns, what do you guys think would be better? Don't say the old 'fling your fists in front of your face' technique like oblivion or something, because that's sooo dated.

First-Person shooting is so dated too but guess what?

A ask for a merge with this thread: What Would You Do About Takedowns? (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=114005)

[Kodaemon]

With regards to the takedowns, what do you guys think would be better? Don't say the old 'fling your fists in front of your face' technique like oblivion or something, because that's sooo dated.

Tell that to Killzone 3.

[CoDEllite]

Takedowns ARE ingame cinematics and they DO look to simple, easy, repetitive, something you would input in a game just to gain mainstream audience...

So you would rather have this game stay very true to the original (think sneaking up on people with a pipe ala Oblivion or any of the FPS games from 20 years ago), not get any mainstream audience, get gushingly positive praise from critics and a few hardcore fans... and bomb horribly in sales denying any hope for continuation of Deus Ex series or development of similar cyberpunk shooters?

[m3do]

thanks oscarmike, by the way did you guys see the new trailer? it kicks ass except for the takedown ofcourse

[WildcatPhoenix]

So you would rather have this game stay very true to the original (think sneaking up on people with a pipe ala Oblivion or any of the FPS games from 20 years ago), not get any mainstream audience, get gushingly positive praise from critics and a few hardcore fans... and bomb horribly in sales denying any hope for continuation of Deus Ex series or development of similar cyberpunk shooters?

Remind me again why every game that comes out needs to have a budget of $50-100 million and outsell most Hollywood blockbusters?

[Kodaemon]

So you would rather have this game stay very true to the original (think sneaking up on people with a pipe ala Oblivion or any of the FPS games from 20 years ago), not get any mainstream audience, get gushingly positive praise from critics and a few hardcore fans... and bomb horribly in sales denying any hope for continuation of Deus Ex series or development of similar cyberpunk shooters?

Tell that to Killzone 3.

[CoDEllite]

Remind me again why every game that comes out needs to have a budget of $50-100 million and outsell most Hollywood blockbusters?

What? Have you been hiding in a cave for the last 15 years or so? Game development is not a hobby pursued by a group of geek basement-dwellers anymore. It's a hugely profitable (possibly becoming even more so now than bigbudget movies) branch of the entertainment industry. And if you think otherwise then go play some Geneforge or minecraft and see how those "indie" games compare to big budget releases? Would you want Deus Ex to have a similarly barebones sequel? Remind me again why is a Call of Duty or Bioware game released every year now? Mainstream gamer pressure. AAA games are simply not made for fun or to appease few raging nerds anymore.

[Happy]

I'm fairly sure this has been confirmed as untrue. In fact from everything we have heard it sounds like takedowns are going to cost energy, still leave you venerable to shots and take way too long. Strangly enough, is sounds like this feature is going to be too dice roll oriented and not enough action oriented for a Deus Ex game. At lest it will have passing that would fit well in step to Deus Ex.

Hi Dead-Eye, I'm not sure I understood you completely - could you please elaborate?

I was hoping the takedown system would cost energy and that if the energy "bar" were not refilled to 100%, the risk of a takedown failing/not engaging would be higher (your oponent might duck or block the attack, or Adam might simply miss the specific target e.g. instead of reverse stabbing through the guy's back, he only wings him).

Is this kind of already in place or is what your desciribing different?

Thanks!

[WildcatPhoenix]

What? Have you been hiding in a cave for the last 15 years or so? Game development is not a hobby pursued by a group of geek basement-dwellers anymore. It's a hugely profitable (possibly becoming even more so now than bigbudget movies) branch of the entertainment industry. And if you think otherwise then go play some Geneforge or minecraft and see how those "indie" games compare to big budget releases? Would you want Deus Ex to have a similarly barebones sequel? Remind me again why is a Call of Duty or Bioware game released every year now? Mainstream gamer pressure. AAA games are simply not made for fun or to appease few raging nerds anymore.

You, sir, personify everything that is wrong with movies, music, and videogames: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

There is more to life than making money. There is more to producing art than buying your fourth Mercedes. There is much, much more to being creative than mother******** sales figures. :mad2:

[LeMoN_LiMe]

yawn
mebbe if you play on easy.
on realistic, guards notice.

FYI, i have dx installed right now. Sadly, with exams coming up, little time to play.

and my rustiness is reason for insults, lol. unless it's the only argument you have.
and please, don't try to flaunt your personal preferences as the infallible truth. not everyone likes what you like. it's not the end of the world. Tastes differ, move on.

@ Dead-eye: that sounds like good news. I'd like to see them show Adam get killed mid-take-down, though, before I fully believe it, :D

And yes it is your fault your rusty so zip it and don't talk about what you don't know. And I played DE:1 on realistic non-leathal 3 weeks ago so I would know a hell of a lot more than you AND I'M IN COLLEGE.

And you the one flaunting. Your the one telling me that I'm :incorrect" and not letting me have my opinion.

Go play COD you hypocritical noob.

[Donvermicelli]

important distinction
when using melee weapons (esp the prod) there is always the chance you'll miss. and then the guard will turn around, and (if you're playing on realistic) he'll blow your head off with one shot.

when you press a button and initiate a takedown, THERE IS NO CHANCE OF FAILURE.
thus we are deprived of freedom. Freedom to fail. Freedom to learn from mistakes.

THAT is the main flaw of "cinematic takedowns" of any kind.

EDIT: not to mention that in DX, while you pressed the button and saw JC swing the weapon and kill someone, another guard could've shot him in the back. During a takedown, Adam is invincible, as befits a cutscene.

EM told us that Hacking was gonna be real-time, in order to correct for DX's ridiculousness, when a guard would politely wait for you to finish reprogramming that turret that would kill him, instead of shooting JC, while he's glued to a screen. And then they went and made the same mistake with takedowns. Even when you were glued to the screen you could still be hit, however there was this glitch where you could activate the console then quickly run and hide and still be operating it from a safe distance.

[Anasumtj]

So you would rather have this game stay very true to the original (think sneaking up on people with a pipe ala Oblivion or any of the FPS games from 20 years ago), not get any mainstream audience, get gushingly positive praise from critics and a few hardcore fans... and bomb horribly in sales denying any hope for continuation of Deus Ex series or development of similar cyberpunk shooters?

Yep.

[kud13]

And yes it is your fault your rusty so zip it and don't talk about what you don't know. And I played DE:1 on realistic non-leathal 3 weeks ago so I would know a hell of a lot more than you AND I'M IN COLLEGE.

And you the one flaunting. Your the one telling me that I'm :incorrect" and not letting me have my opinion.

Go play COD you hypocritical noob.

sigh
I really enjoy how worked up some ppl get over nothing.
by sending me off to play COD i'll assume you figure I'm one of those console-players we all like to hate on.
which is funny, given that I've repeatedly posted on various threads that i've never owned a console in my life. but I digress.

lmao. i'm not telling you that you can't have your own opinion re: takedowns. go ahead. doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

for the sake of argument, i booted up my copy of DX, unpatched, and started Liberty Island. not only is it possible to miss with the prod, with the resulting footsteps noise causing the guard to turn, it's also possible to use the prod on a "twitching/immobilised" NSF soldiers without knocking them out and keep doing that till you're out of ammo and have to kill them.
player's skill level aside (good for you that you're in college and maintain those awesome gaming skills. Wish I managed to do the same whilst I worked 9 to 9 7 days a week before coming back to law school), the idea i was pointing out was that teh original design left room for failure. because you got so good you didn't notice it, doesn't mean it wasn't there, lol.

[LeMoN_LiMe]

sigh
I really enjoy how worked up some ppl get over nothing.
by sending me off to play COD i'll assume you figure I'm one of those console-players we all like to hate on.
which is funny, given that I've repeatedly posted on various threads that i've never owned a console in my life. but I digress.

lmao. i'm not telling you that you can't have your own opinion re: takedowns. go ahead. doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

for the sake of argument, i booted up my copy of DX, unpatched, and started Liberty Island. not only is it possible to miss with the prod, with the resulting footsteps noise causing the guard to turn, it's also possible to use the prod on a "twitching/immobilised" NSF soldiers without knocking them out and keep doing that till you're out of ammo and have to kill them.
player's skill level aside (good for you that you're in college and maintain those awesome gaming skills. Wish I managed to do the same whilst I worked 9 to 9 7 days a week before coming back to law school), the idea i was pointing out was that teh original design left room for failure. because you got so good you didn't notice it, doesn't mean it wasn't there, lol.


Okay how am I suppose to come back and insult that? I mean come on. -_-

Well I'm trying to get into law school myself so I can understand the loss in gaming time there.

Well as long as the AI is halfway intelligent then the game will still be interesting. It looks pretty good so far but then again it always does in the demo. It's not until you've had the disk running for hours that the fine points in the AI really start to shine. :D

Oh and consoles rule by the way. COD sucks little casual gamer marbles.

[Fox89]

Question! Does anyone care that the takedowns, whilst admittedly not 100% true to the original, are actually awesome? You press a button, you kill the guy. Exactly the same thing that happens in the original when you hit him with a crowbar...

.../laser sword.

Bottom line, the actual gameplay has changed very little, it just looks more badass now.

on realistic, guards notice

Hmm...do they? Maybe if you miss and hit a pillar or something... And how realistic was the old system again? Personally I'm not in the business of sneaking up close behind people and hitting them over the head with a crowbar IRL, but I get the distinct impression that it would be quite difficult to miss.

[FrankCSIS]

Does anyone care that the takedowns, whilst admittedly not 100% true to the original, are actually awesome?

Personal taste. I don't find them badass in the slightest. Too flashy, not subtle enough to be badass.

You press a button, you kill the guy. Exactly the same thing that happens in the original when you hit him with a crowbar...

How many times will this be brought up? When you use an item to take someone down, you need to personally get there undetected, aim, and use the item. When a button controls an entire action sequence, it's not the exact same thing. The result is guaranteed, the action is always succesful. The most annoying part, which you seem to be missing here, is the perception switch. For all the things I'm excited about this title, I just can't stand the takedowns.

but I get the distinct impression that it would be quite difficult to miss

It's actually surprisingly easy. A personal hobby of mine is sneaking up on clerks at stores. One woman yelled out loud and nearly fainted once, as I was standing about five inches from her, facing her, when she noticed me. I find salesmen to be amusingly jumpy. Good times.

Edit: Seems I misread your last bit. You may disregard. I still like to sneak up on people though. Good times, indeed.

[Fox89]

How many times will this be brought up?

Always at least once more :)

Surely the actual part of the 'takedowns' (for want of a better word) in the original DX that involved any skill is preserved in HR? You still have to make your approach undetected, and if you want you could still pop them in the head with a silenced pistol (or melee weapons if any end up included). That was the interesting bit, beyond that it was just a case of pointing at the guy's head and hoping the dodgy collision detection didn't think that you hit his shoulder.

[Crane]

How many times will this be brought up? When you use an item to take someone down, you need to personally get there undetected, aim, and use the item. When a button controls an entire action sequence, it's not the exact same thing. The result is guaranteed, the action is always succesful. The most annoying part, which you seem to be missing here, is the perception switch. For all the things I'm excited about this title, I just can't stand the takedowns.

you need to personally get there undetected
You still need to get there, preferably undetected to avoid being shot to bits (and I'd swear I've seen it said that takedowns don't work on alerted enemies).

aim,
The ability to somehow MISS with a crowbar from three feet away was ridiculous in the first place, and we're better off without it.

and use the item.
Which you did by pressing a single button. The same as performing a takedown.

The most annoying part, which you seem to be missing here, is the perception switch.
This one I can't argue with, though I'd point out that whether or not the perception switch annoys you is a matter of personal taste...

[WildcatPhoenix]

you need to personally get there undetected
You still need to get there, preferably undetected to avoid being shot to bits (and I'd swear I've seen it said that takedowns don't work on alerted enemies).


I've heard the same thing, but there in itself is a problem: one of the most legitimate complaints about the first Deus Ex was the sheer Neanderthalian stupidity of the enemy AI. They had attention spans of a goldfish, the eyesight of a mole, and the speed of a sea slug. The developers even admitted to reducing the enemy's FOV and sight distance to account for...something, I don't remember.

But here, in a much more advanced engine, it appears the enemies suffer from the same limitations! Can you honestly tell me those two guards in the dockyard wouldn't spot Adam dropping down between them and activing uberl33t mode? It seems you can trigger the takedowns at a ridiculous distance.

And don't tell me "oh well his aug is upgraded to do double takedowns." That's still a bunch of junk.

I'm curious to hear if different texture types (grass vs. metal vs. wood, for example) create more noise than others? In other words, is it more difficult to perform a takedown on a guard if he is walking on metal floor than on grass?

[cartridge]

My opinion is that the third person take-downs remove the player from the game too much. It works for games like Mass Effect because the whole experience is intentionally designed around the player taking control of Commander Shepard and a squad of other characters, rather than actually being Commander Shepard. In the first Deus Ex, the experience is always through Denton's eyes, and I believe that is part of what made the game so engrossing and vivid. Allow a third person toggle if you must, but don't force the player into out of body experiences, please.

Edit: Honestly, the only time I want to see Adam's face is in a reflective surface (such as glass or polished metal) or the pre-rendered cut scenes.

[FrankCSIS]

You still need to get there, preferably undetected to avoid being shot to bits (and I'd swear I've seen it said that takedowns don't work on alerted enemies).


I can't tell for sure unless someone who has played this can confirm it. On two occasions now we've seen Adam running towards people's face and taking them down.

The ability to somehow MISS with a crowbar from three feet away was ridiculous in the first place, and we're better off without it.

It was not handled perfectly, and sometimes resulted in silly outcomes. It greatly helps with the involvement, however. It keeps you mentally vulnerable, which adds stress to your silent playthrough. The ability to miss made sense with the stunprod, however, which is mostly what I used. They could've tweaked the system to make sure a hit to the head always connected, while a hit to the back or the arm would not result in a stun. It would retain the aiming aspect, which is key here in remaining in control, all the while eliminating the silliness of missing a head shot with a blunt object, since they have abandonned the dice roll aspect of DX.

[Pinky_Powers]

It's actually surprisingly easy. A personal hobby of mine is sneaking up on clerks at stores. One woman yelled out loud and nearly fainted once, as I was standing about five inches from her, facing her, when she noticed me. I find salesmen to be amusingly jumpy. Good times.

This does not surprise me in the least. ;)

[Fox89]

Here's an interesting thing I came across in a PC Gamer interview from earlier this month. The takedowns cost energy, just like using an augmentation like cloaking or the "Claymore". So I imagine they'll be something to use sparingly. If you have 5 enemies in a room you want to stealth kill, you takedown 2 and do the other 3 the old-fashioned way.

And takedowns dont have to be sneak attacks, they do work when the guards are alerted to your presence. But Dugas says you probably wont use them when your cover is blown too often as they'll be shooting at you and you can't take too many shots!

[FrankCSIS]

This does not surprise me in the least. ;)

The fun a man can have with nothing but himself :D Also amusing is to walk in restricted areas such as warehouse/backstore, and stroll around as if you belong there until someone notices. Home Depot and Best Buy are surprisigly careless.

Fox (how many foxes do we have in here btw, I've lost track!), unlike the OP here, I don't think the takedowns are devil spawns, I was merely adressing how I don't find them badass or a suitable replacement to other mechanics. I don't like them, I won't really use them, and that will be the end of that. No hard feeling. I'd just like to see some footage with less takedowns now, and more continuous unedited first person action. But that's personal caprice is all it is :cool:

[IOOI]

Behold the defenders of *basic gameplay* and *core game mechanics*! :rolleyes:
They'll be invading the forums soon...
I sense a Dark Future ahead of DX. (I think I didn't word that correctly. Well, I mean... You know what I mean.)

[WildcatPhoenix]

Here's an interesting thing I came across in a PC Gamer interview from earlier this month. The takedowns cost energy, just like using an augmentation like cloaking or the "Claymore". So I imagine they'll be something to use sparingly. If you have 5 enemies in a room you want to stealth kill, you takedown 2 and do the other 3 the old-fashioned way.

And takedowns dont have to be sneak attacks, they do work when the guards are alerted to your presence. But Dugas says you probably wont use them when your cover is blown too often as they'll be shooting at you and you can't take too many shots!

Which brings up another issue- if takedowns use bioenergy, and you run out of energy, does this not eliminate the ability to use melee combat altogether? Once you're out of "bio ammo," if you will, the takedown will not be possible or must at least recharge.

Meanwhile, a simple baton or crowbar could have been used indefinitely. Yet with these weapons completely removed from the game, how does this not screw over the player who prefers close combat? :scratch:

[Fox89]

Meanwhile, a simple baton or crowbar could have been used indefinitely. Yet with these weapons completely removed from the game, how does this not screw over the player who prefers close combat?

Are these definitely out then? I've not seen any statements from EM regarding melee weapons.

Although perhaps it doesn't completely screw over the CQC lover even if they aren't there... if you check out the latest trailer Jensen uses a melee attack to bash a crate into an enemy's face. I wonder if that was an augmentation or just a standard "Press E to swing gun"?

[MaxxQ1]

Are these definitely out then? I've not seen any statements from EM regarding melee weapons.

Although perhaps it doesn't completely screw over the CQC lover even if they aren't there... if you check out the latest trailer Jensen uses a melee attack to bash a crate into an enemy's face. I wonder if that was an augmentation or just a standard "Press E to swing gun"?

Yes, they are definitely out. The only melee weapons available to Adam are his arm blades and his fists.

Edit: Using either of which will take you into a third-person cutscene of the takedown.

[WildcatPhoenix]

Are these definitely out then? I've not seen any statements from EM regarding melee weapons.

Although perhaps it doesn't completely screw over the CQC lover even if they aren't there... if you check out the latest trailer Jensen uses a melee attack to bash a crate into an enemy's face. I wonder if that was an augmentation or just a standard "Press E to swing gun"?

As MaxxQ1 said, the melee weapons are confirmed to be completely out.

I believe the super strength (using crates as a weapon) is a branch of the arm augmentation tree and therefore would require bioelectric energy to use as well.

[m3do]

My opinion is that the third person take-downs remove the player from the game too much. It works for games like Mass Effect because the whole experience is intentionally designed around the player taking control of Commander Shepard and a squad of other characters, rather than actually being Commander Shepard. In the first Deus Ex, the experience is always through Denton's eyes, and I believe that is part of what made the game so engrossing and vivid. Allow a third person toggle if you must, but don't force the player into out of body experiences, please.

Edit: Honestly, the only time I want to see Adam's face is in a reflective surface (such as glass or polished metal) or the pre-rendered cut scenes.

exactly,i mean look at the new trailer jensen did a takedown in the middle of all the gunfire and explosions how can it be more distracting than this? also why didn't he just use the claymore takedown to kill everbody and save himself the trouble

[Fox89]

I believe the super strength (using crates as a weapon) is a branch of the arm augmentation tree and therefore would require bioelectric energy to use as well.

Yes, looks like you're right. I checked the trailer again and he doesn't hit the crate with the butt of his rifle as I thought he did, he actually picks it up and throws it. It happened so fast I thought it was just a push the first time.

OK then, it does sound like the takedowns and therefore all melee combat is limited. Not completely though as the first part of the energy bar does recharge, so you'll never be more than a few seconds away from takedown capability. But I do see your point.

exactly,i mean look at the new trailer jensen did a takedown in the middle of all the gunfire and explosions how can it be more distracting than this?

The occasional flick to 3rd person worked absolutely fine in Rainbow Six: Vegas. Also, the reverse has been happening for ages and not been a problem. Ever crawl through a vent in Metal Gear Solid? Changes to 1st person. I understand how the change in perspective may seem jarring in trailers, but in actual gameplay as long as the transition is smooth then I doubt you'll even notice it after the first hour or two.

[BigBoss]

You, sir, personify everything that is wrong with movies, music, and videogames: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

There is more to life than making money. There is more to producing art than buying your fourth Mercedes. There is much, much more to being creative than mother******** sales figures. :mad2:

Yeah guys listen to this guy on his mighty horse. I'm sure he has always supported his local mom and pop shops to resist the 'man' because those shops character, and has never snapped under any financial pressure for the sake of originality.

[IOOI]

Electronic Men trolls are the future!

[kud13]

exactly,i mean look at the new trailer jensen did a takedown in the middle of all the gunfire and explosions how can it be more distracting than this? also why didn't he just use the claymore takedown to kill everbody and save himself the trouble

he did. later.

[MaxxQ1]

also why didn't he just use the claymore takedown to kill everbody and save himself the trouble

Because I would imagine using that aug uses a *lot* of bioenergy. IOW, so much that you may not be able to use it more than once in a fight. Also, the little bombs that come out are probably a finite resource and you would need to reload the system before using it again.

Speculation on my part, but I think it's logical, since it would be ridiculous if you could just spam that aug everywhere/anywhere/anytime you wanted.

[TheWoodsieLord]

Isn't it completely illogical that Adam, who is supposed to have less advanced augmentations than JC, is able to do things that JC wasn't?

And at least make the kills logical, not just showoff kills. In the trailer we see Adam knocking down two enemies and then, instead of simply extending his blades to kill them, he lifts his hands and extends the blades from his elbows, and then he kills them.

Also, are non-lethal takedowns even possible?

What was wrong with the batons and crowbars...

[kud13]

yes. Adam can simply punch out NPCs, rendering them unconcious.

AFAIK, teh lowest energy bar regenerates. So, Adam will probably nearly always be capable of performing a single takedown, which has been confirmed as one of the starter augs.

[Fox89]

Isn't it completely illogical that Adam, who is supposed to have less advanced augmentations than JC, is able to do things that JC wasn't?

Of course. But this is where you need to turn your suspension of disbelief on :)

Also, are non-lethal takedowns even possible?

Yes. You tap a button once to perform a non-lethal, hold it to perform a lethal.

[m3do]

Isn't it completely illogical that Adam, who is supposed to have less advanced augmentations than JC, is able to do things that JC wasn't?

jc denton augmatations were nanotechnology they were used boost his abilitis the ones jensen has are mechanichal so he's able to carry more weapons


on the claymore topic the bio electric energy doesn't matter or ammo just activate invisiblity augmantation get in the middle start the claymore takedown and bam all the soldiers are dead no need for the gunfight and all that stuff

[Donvermicelli]

Isn't it completely illogical that Adam, who is supposed to have less advanced augmentations than JC, is able to do things that JC wasn't?

Something I have been wondering for ages now tbh, same goes for the rest of the tech people have it all appears way more futuristic and advanced than what people had in DX1, this also brings out the question why gunther seemed to have none of these augs and had to rely on a combat knife and await his rescue. (why didn't he punch the door/wall out or simply used his arm blades for that matter) He was the most advanced mech around.

[Fox89]

It's just a case of being able to do more in the modern day. Like if you were to visit Hell;s Kitchen in this game it would probably be a much bigger area than it was in DX1. There'd be no narrative reasons behind it, the tech would just be able to cope with more.

[casT-]

I too think those take downs are too much over the top, and that seems to appeal to a kind of people that i don't appreciate. If a take down is supposed to be stealth, why to put the blade through is back with all the mess involved? And i find funny how the prequels are usually so much more "high teched" than the originals and sequels.
Does he loads a round every time he pulls off the pistol?

[motsm]

It's just a case of being able to do more in the modern day. Like if you were to visit Hell;s Kitchen in this game it would probably be a much bigger area than it was in DX1. There'd be no narrative reasons behind it, the tech would just be able to cope with more.Yes, but there is no technical reason to explain the aug's and various other technology in that manner, as pretty much all of it could be easily implemented when Deus Ex was made.

Of course your point is also arguable, considering Invisible War's cramped environments.

[Fox89]

Yes, but there is no technical reason to explain the aug's and various other technology in that manner

Who's to say it wasn't? We had people with mechanical augmentations in DX, perhaps they were capable of exactly the same kind of thing that Jensen will be doing. If the graphics engine was a bit more modern maybe Anna Navarre would have been punching people through walls ;)

[WildcatPhoenix]

Who's to say it wasn't? We had people with mechanical augmentations in DX, perhaps they were capable of exactly the same kind of thing that Jensen will be doing. If the graphics engine was a bit more modern maybe Anna Navarre would have been punching people through walls ;)

We've been over this time and time again. Deus Ex did not feature brick walled buildings or mechanical locks or blocky metallic augmentation because of engine limitations. Go back and read the developer statements. These were deliberate design choices.

One of the distinct advantages of the nano-aug agents was their ability to blend in almost seamlessly with the general population. Remember the e-mails about "thanking those who have made the sacrifice" to augment themselves biomechanically? And the warnings about potential resentment towards the nanoaugs from the older generation of biomechs?

Deus Ex was mature science fiction. It was not about spaceships or laser beams or over-the-top martial arts. It was a realistic vision of the future- albeit, a highly pessimistic one- that only occasionally stepped into the realm of fantasy (the universal constructors were, although true to life in theory, somewhat of a logical stretch).

DXHR doesn't look fake or stupid. But it also doesn't look like any kind of world I recognize, and I highly, highly doubt the real world of 2027 will resemble anything like this game either.

[Angel-A]

The title of this thread made me lose the game.

:hmm:

[mentalkase]

We've been over this time and time again. Deus Ex did not feature brick walled buildings or mechanical locks or blocky metallic augmentation because of engine limitations. Go back and read the developer statements. These were deliberate design choices.

One of the distinct advantages of the nano-aug agents was their ability to blend in almost seamlessly with the general population. Remember the e-mails about "thanking those who have made the sacrifice" to augment themselves biomechanically? And the warnings about potential resentment towards the nanoaugs from the older generation of biomechs?

Deus Ex was mature science fiction. It was not about spaceships or laser beams or over-the-top martial arts. It was a realistic vision of the future- albeit, a highly pessimistic one- that only occasionally stepped into the realm of fantasy (the universal constructors were, although true to life in theory, somewhat of a logical stretch).

DXHR doesn't look fake or stupid. But it also doesn't look like any kind of world I recognize, and I highly, highly doubt the real world of 2027 will resemble anything like this game either.

I agree that it 2027 won't look like DXHR, but not primarily because of any advanced technology that's featured in it or because the environments look too futuristic. From what i've seen of the game through video, screenshots, concept art etc, there is wide selection of environments. From typical old brick buildings that probably really stand in Detroit at the moment, to modern buildings that are based on real planned buildings from around the world, to futuristic looking labs/facilities, which although looking pretty sci-fi, i'm sure you could find something similar in the world right now.

What differentiates the game from the reality of the future is the consistent design aesthetic and limited colour palette, and the 'cyber renaissance' element. It looks like a world that's been created by a team of artists with a well defined artistic vision,which it has, to give it a unique and individual look.

There's no doubt in some aspects they've taken some pretty heavy license with what the world will look like in 17 yrs, especially with Hengsha and a few of the weapons, but overall I think they've probably done a more realistic representation of 2027 than DX did of 2052.

[WildcatPhoenix]

There's no doubt in some aspects they've taken some pretty heavy license with what the world will look like in 17 yrs, especially with Hengsha and a few of the weapons, but overall I think they've probably done a more realistic representation of 2027 than DX did of 2052.

I couldn't disagree more, but oh well. To each his/her own.

Regarding the artistic vision, this is another point of contention between me and several people on this board. You can definitely see how Eidos Montreal has tried to bring a more defined palette and visual theme to the environments in DXHR. Personally, I strongly dislike this approach (ever since Bioshock came out and sold well, many designers are saying, "Hey, I had an Introduction to Art class back in college! I'll break out my old textbook and pick a style!") And months later you have a game with streets full of Gothic buildings or Art Nouveau character models...or a cyber-Renaissance that in 2027 influences everything from clothing to interior decorating to building design, yet mysteriously vanishes by 2052.

That is purely my opinion, however, and I realize some people enjoy this consistent theme. To me, it just seems like a case of someone letting Jean Jacques Belletete go more than a little overboard with the art design.

[mentalkase]

I couldn't disagree more, but oh well. To each his/her own.

Regarding the artistic vision, this is another point of contention between me and several people on this board. You can definitely see how Eidos Montreal has tried to bring a more defined palette and visual theme to the environments in DXHR. Personally, I strongly dislike this approach (ever since Bioshock came out and sold well, many designers are saying, "Hey, I had an Introduction to Art class back in college! I'll break out my old textbook and pick a style!") And months later you have a game with streets full of Gothic buildings or Art Nouveau character models...or a cyber-Renaissance that in 2027 influences everything from clothing to interior decorating to building design, yet mysteriously vanishes by 2052.

That is purely my opinion, however, and I realize some people enjoy this consistent theme. To me, it just seems like a case of someone letting Jean Jacques Belletete go more than a little overboard with the art design.

I'm not sure i'd say that I think the renaissance design elements will add much to my game playing experience but I can see why they did it, to give the game its own 'flavour' and as a way of fleshing out the transhumanist culture. It doesn't really look like it's anywhere near as strong an element of the art design as Art Nouveau was to Bioshock. Bioshock basically was an Art Nouveau looking game, HR will be near future cyberpunk with a smattering of renaissance design from what i've seen.

And yes, I absolutely do not think that DX1 reflects how the bleeding edge of technology will look in 42 yrs. It's far too conservative in its estimates.

[Ephemeral]

Melee combat in Deux Ex 1 required precision.

Console controllers are imprecise.

Consoles combined are the biggest videogame market.

Therefore, melee combat has to be simplified in Deux Ex 3 to maximize accessibility and profits.

Can we just stop pretending there's anything more to it?

[AlexOfSpades]

They could not only give us back the melee combat, but also give us a blocking button. (Alternate fire)

Although i find it a little bit silly, since modern combat does not actually use melee weapons unless extreme last resort (knives and so on). No swords or crowbars.

Actually i dont think anyone uses a crowbar for fighting at all, since its heavy, cumbersome and slow.

Only Freeman and Denton.

[Fox89]

Can we just stop pretending there's anything more to it?

Ha, I can pretty much guarantee that this isn't the reason for it. Console controllers are nowhere near that imprecise. Walking up behind someone and swinging a crowbar at their head would be plenty simple enough on a console. Let's not forget the original DX could be found on PS2. Oblivion let you do just that as well. Same with Fallouts 3 and New Vegas.

The sensibility of the design choice is debatable, but it is most definitely not an Invisible War style dumbing down for the console market.

[jd10013]

So you would rather have this game stay very true to the original (think sneaking up on people with a pipe ala Oblivion or any of the FPS games from 20 years ago), not get any mainstream audience, get gushingly positive praise from critics and a few hardcore fans... and bomb horribly in sales denying any hope for continuation of Deus Ex series or development of similar cyberpunk shooters?


so you'd rather have a bad, shallow game that sells millions of copies and gets you an equally bad sequel than a good game you'll play over and over and over?

that's like saying I don't care if the new camaro runs good, I just hope it sells well so they make another version in 4 years. seems kind of stupid if you ask me.

[Ephemeral]

Ha, I can pretty much guarantee that this isn't the reason for it. Console controllers are nowhere near that imprecise. Walking up behind someone and swinging a crowbar at their head would be plenty simple enough on a console. Let's not forget the original DX could be found on PS2. Oblivion let you do just that as well. Same with Fallouts 3 and New Vegas.

The sensibility of the design choice is debatable, but it is most definitely not an Invisible War style dumbing down for the console market.

Why else would they remove anything but takedowns by removing conventional melee combat?

Just because other games have done it doesn't mean it works well.

There have been RTS ports on consoles and most which weren't heavily adapted or specifically built for them have been frustrating to play. I always think back to Command & Conquer on N64, but that's just me.

FPSs on consoles are not impossible to play with a pinpoint dot crosshair, but a circular rectacle with a large hit area is much more fun, so now that is how ALL (well 90%) of FPSs are built from the ground up.

Point is, developers and distributors learn from previous attempts and the latter especially have realised that catering to the more casual/imprecise controller based console market pays big. Look at the CoD franchise. It has dumbed down FPSs spectacularly. Playing CoD4 on PC, 2/3 of my kills in team deathmatch would consistently not come from me shooting but from heli/air strike kills.

Coming back to Deus Ex 3, it's not that it's impossible to implement, it's just that it's a frustrating game mechanic for controllers. Have you ever tried creeping around slowly in an FPS/3PS? Analogue sticks aren't made for small, precise movement. If it comes down to removing a whole gameplay feature to cater to the console gamers, or keeping it in and making the experience slightly more difficult for them, it's pretty obvious how it's going to turn out.

[jd10013]

Question! Does anyone care that the takedowns, whilst admittedly not 100% true to the original, are actually awesome? You press a button, you kill the guy. Exactly the same thing that happens in the original when you hit him with a crowbar...

.../laser sword.

Bottom line, the actual gameplay has changed very little, it just looks more badass now.



Hmm...do they? Maybe if you miss and hit a pillar or something... And how realistic was the old system again? Personally I'm not in the business of sneaking up close behind people and hitting them over the head with a crowbar IRL, but I get the distinct impression that it would be quite difficult to miss.

What your missing though is that the situation you described only worked on the first couple leves/maps of DX. as the game progressed, it became increasingly difficult, and eventually almost impossible, to just sneak up, equip your prod/crowbar/ect, push a button, and have one less guard to deal with. that generally didn't work too well with MiB's, MJ12 rocket troopers, klarkians(sp), greaseals, greys, and bots. and most times, there were enough guards around that somebody would notice if you took one out.

yea, it was possible, but got much harder as the game progressed. I doubt that will be the case with take downs.

[Fox89]

Just because other games have done it doesn't mean it works well.

No, the fact that it works well in those other games means that it works well. The melee mechanic in Oblivion, for example, was at least as good on the consoles as it was on PC DX.

developers and distributors learn from previous attempts and the latter especially have realised that catering to the more casual/imprecise controller based console market pays big

The game that Eidos Montreal have probably learned from the most in that regard is Invisible War. They know that the game was absolutely slated by series fans precisely due to the 'dumbing down' for consoles, andpart of the point of Human Revolution has been to make another proper DX game.

Have you ever tried creeping around slowly in an FPS/3PS?

Yes. It's called Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell and Assassin's Creed. FPS games don't tend do do it nowadays, but I remember playing Medal of Honor: Frontline on PS2. That had a reasonably large focus on stealth and it worked very well.

[rokstrombo]

I think the visual style of Deus Ex was severely limited by the technology of the time, and accordingly I think a lot of compromises were made to keep items such as cabinets, telephones and building materials looking recognisable despite the extremely limited texture resolution and polygon count. As a result, the design of these items can appear more retro-futuristic or even symbolic than realistic. The map design suffered even more, with areas such as the Free Clinic looking more like a dungeon than a modern medical facility (even a severely neglected one).

To upgrade the graphics quality to current standards would require considerable creative license. I'm not sure that the art direction is robust enough to be effective with a modern audience at a higher fidelity. Back in 2000, merely placing interactive 3D objects on shelves and in drawers was a high-end feature. Now, gamers expect such items to be relevant to to the context and aesthetic of the scene. A lone multitool in an otherwise empty desk in an office with no wall lining, stationary, or storage facilities may be considered unacceptable in a modern game. Who is this office worker and why do they possess such a device? What do they do all day in an empty office? These are the questions that must be answered in order to create a believable interactive office scene. And I think when you start to explore the practicality of visual design choices, 19th-century liquor cabinets and 2400cm^3 desk phones don't make a whole lot of sense in the context of the futuristic setting.

[zombieturtle01]

That said, they have taken out melee weapons, so you won't be able to play a close combat character without using the takedowns, so if that's your chosen style, rage away.

Seriously??? You can't even use Jensen's Arm Blades in First Person mode?!?

[Ephemeral]

No, the fact that it works well in those other games means that it works well. The melee mechanic in Oblivion, for example, was at least as good on the consoles as it was on PC DX.

Um, the combat mechanics in Oblivion sucked. And sneaking as a whole was piss easy.

The game that Eidos Montreal have probably learned from the most in that regard is Invisible War. They know that the game was absolutely slated by series fans precisely due to the 'dumbing down' for consoles, andpart of the point of Human Revolution has been to make another proper DX game.

It will have been 8 years since this game came out that Deus Ex 3 is released. Most of the people who will go on to buy would never have played it. In some ways this is certainly true but that doesn't mean that exceptions aren't made. Regardless, what people say in an industry like this is tempered through PR. It's like how Blizzard justified restricting intra-regional play in Starcraft 2 by saying that it's to prevent lag. Or how IW justified away the exclusion of dedicated servers in MW2 by saying they're prioritising the player experience over modding.

Yes. It's called Metal Gear Solid

Stealth plays very differently in this game but okay, point taken. I'm not saying this is some kind of universal pact by the way. I'm just saying that's what the trend is.

Splinter Cell

It's quite ironic that you bring this title up when this game has the exact same mechanics that Deus Ex 3 is going for. Except in that game they're called executions. Slight difference.

and Assassin's Creed.

Stealth elements? What stealth elements? That game's consistently been as suited to stealth as a cheese gratter is to cutting your hair.

FPS games don't tend do do it nowadays, but I remember playing Medal of Honor: Frontline on PS2. That had a reasonably large focus on stealth and it worked very well.

Yep they don't, and part of the reason is it doesn't translate well to consoles.

[Fox89]

Um, the combat mechanics in Oblivion sucked.

Yes, as did the melee combat in DX1 on PC. My point remains valid. And if the mechanics suck then that seems like a good reason to ditch them, don't you think?

It's quite ironic that you bring this title up when this game has the exact same mechanics that Deus Ex 3 is going for. Except in that game they're called executions. Slight difference.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, I don't see how that's relevant. I brought up Splinter Cell as an example of precise, slow movement with the analog stick. At the end of the day, if an analog stick can be made suitable enough for aiming the crosshair of a gun, it can be made suitable enough for aiming the crosshair of a crowbar. Because the aiming mechanic is actually exactly the same.

That game's consistently been as suited to stealth as a cheese gratter is to cutting your hair.

You have a point with AC. I was thinking largely of the 'moving through crowd' sections. But now I think more about it that wasn't really about precision just about slow pacing, so bad example.

Yep they don't, and part of the reason is it doesn't translate well to consoles.

Well it can translate well to consoles. Like it did in Frontline. So I somehow doubt that's the reason.

[Ephemeral]

Let's follow this back and forth, shall we?

Just because other games have done it doesn't mean it works well.

No, the fact that it works well in those other games means that it works well. The melee mechanic in Oblivion, for example, was at least as good on the consoles as it was on PC DX.

Um, the combat mechanics in Oblivion sucked. And sneaking as a whole was piss easy.

Yes, as did the melee combat in DX1 on PC. My point remains valid. And if the mechanics suck then that seems like a good reason to ditch them, don't you think?

Lol.

My point was that the stealth in Oblivion was simplified, and it didn't matter how they made it, it was piss easy on both platforms. DX1's was not and that's why people don't want it removed. Now, since you've just contradicted yourself, I'm not sure what your point is. :)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, I don't see how that's relevant. I brought up Splinter Cell as an example of precise, slow movement with the analog stick.

This is what I'm trying to say here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epFB3zOioOs

Notice what it says at the start of the video?

At the end of the day, if an analog stick can be made suitable enough for aiming the crosshair of a gun, it can be made suitable enough for aiming the crosshair of a crowbar. Because the aiming mechanic is actually exactly the same.

But like I said, it's not suitable enough for aiming the crosshair of a gun. They need to turn a tiny crosshair (e.g. CS) into a large circular rectacle (e.g. Halo). Even snipers on recent Call of Duty titles have minor auto aim built in, within a radius compared to on PC.

Carefully moving an analogue stick is much harder than tapping the WASD keys, I would have thought that's pretty obvious.

You have a point with AC. I was thinking largely of the 'moving through crowd' sections. But now I think more about it that wasn't really about precision just about slow pacing, so bad example.

Let's not kid around, that requires 0 skill.

Well it can translate well to consoles. Like it did in Frontline. So I somehow doubt that's the reason.

Mhm, and how successful was that financially?

[Fox89]

My point was that the stealth in Oblivion was simplified, and it didn't matter how they made it, it was piss easy on both platforms. DX1's was not and that's why people don't want it removed. Now, since you've just contradicted yourself, I'm not sure what your point is

I didn't contradict myself. I wasn't talking about Oblivion's stealth, I was talking about it's melee combat, whether detected or no. Which was very similar in terms of depth and difficulty as DX's, and worked pretty much as well across all platforms. And I thought they worked reasonably well. When I said "if they sucked then that's a good reason to ditch them" was referring to your point of view. The point being: if you think the melee sucked in Oblivion then it also sucked in DX, as the mechanics were very similar and of about the same quality.

Also: Condemned. There's another series of games that had very good melee combat on consoles. Bottom line: It's not just EM dumbing down for consoles as the mechanic they've removed has proven perfectly fine on consoles, at the very leat when compared to it's quality in the original DX.

Notice what it says at the start of the video?

Yes, and is completely irrelevant. Takedowns or no, Splinter Cell is still a good example of precision movement with the analog stick (because it is still a stealth game at heart) And I wasn't just referring to Conviction, but to the entire series.

But like I said, it's not suitable enough for aiming the crosshair of a gun. They need to turn a tiny crosshair (e.g. CS) into a large circular rectacle (e.g. Halo)

Nonsense. An analog stick is perfectly accurate enough to do that if a developer chooses to use a crosshair. They work fine when aiming down iron sights as well. Also, so what?? If you sneak up behind somebody and want to hit them over the head with a crowbar, does it matter if you have a crosshair or a circular reticle? It's still perfectly easy enough to aim that reticle at somebody's head an use it.

Carefully moving an analogue stick is much harder than tapping the WASD keys

VERY bad example. I would say in terms of movement, an analog stick gives you greater precision than the WASD keys because you can actually choose how much to tilt the stick AND you have 360 degrees of movement. For aiming, a mouse is always superior, but for movement I would say analog sticks have the edge over keyboard. Moreover, how difficult is precision movement anyway? In DX, 'precision' involved holding the crouch button and pressing W. How is that 'more precise' than what you would do on a console, where you would hold crouch and push forwards?

Let's not kid around, that requires 0 skill.

You're right. I've already admitted I made a mistake using that as an example, can we move on?

Mhm, and how successful was that financially?

I have no idea. I know it was a critical success. And I know it's the favourite MOH game for a lot of the series' fans. But I don;t know about sales figures.

Incidentally, your original point was that "part of the reason is it [stealth/precise movement] doesn't translate well to consoles". As if this somehow supports the idea that EM are dumbing down for the consoles. Well, it did work well in Frontline. More importantly, takedowns or no, there is still stealth in DX:HR. Either they feel stealth in an FPS works well enough on consoles, or they're leaving it in in order to appease the PC audience. So your original point is a complete non-argument!

[motsm]

Who's to say it wasn't? We had people with mechanical augmentations in DX, perhaps they were capable of exactly the same kind of thing that Jensen will be doing. If the graphics engine was a bit more modern maybe Anna Navarre would have been punching people through walls ;)Breaking through walls is pretty much the only thing that would be a challenge to implement back then, the silly take downs, room clearing aug's, and various other easy button game play mechanics would be no harder to implement in Deus Ex then Human Revolution however.