Bosses in DX

[Cronstintein]

Was just reading a line I've seen several times in previews, "You can go through without racking up a single kill. Except bosses."

And was pondering the whole 'boss' idea. In hack n slash games I think bosses have some value -- breaking up the pace. Putting a clear finale at the end of a section. Things like that.

For a game like DX; however, I see boss mentality as a hindrance rather than a help to gameplay. Take a stealth approach for instance and you KNOW you're going to have a scene at the end:

Walk into a room at the end of a stage.
Cue cutscene -- Doors close behind you. Some jackoff turns around in his chair, "I've been expecting you Jensen."
Which is really annoying because you've been careful all level long so that he WOULDN'T be expecting you!
Then you get into a fight where you're likely leaping from cover to cover while some explosives go off at your last point of protection. Learn the pattern. Take your free shots. Victory. Meh.

For twitchy arcade-like games I think this makes some sense. For a game that's trying to bring in an element of reality and immersion these sections are the worst.


~~~
Time for my solution!

Make boss sections more like hitman missions. You have a target that needs elimination. He's in a secure (but NON-LINEAR) facility/area.

1. Get Information
There are several spots to get information about your target and his defenses. Conversation spoken or overheard, hacking his itinerary, etc..

2. Lower Defenses
Maybe a few ways to soften the defenses: Change the roster so the new recruits are on shift, shut down the automated turrets, set up a distraction.

3. Choose your method.
There should be several ways to take out a target. A few options for environmental traps and certain areas where a frontal assault can be carried out.

This is how a 'boss-killing mission' should take place in a deus ex game. The boss shouldn't require tons of ammo and dodging to take out but instead a plan of attack and methodical weakening of his defenses.

I realize this isn't going to happen. It's a classic video game cliche to have your boss blab to you before the fight to push the plot forward. Unfortunately this is lame and unrealistic, but also easier to set up as a developer.

[Pinky_Powers]

I agree that the cliché Boss formula is rotten through. But I think there has to be a number of ways to handle Boss encounters that have yet to be tried. We just need innovation in these areas.

I certainly don't think we need to abandon Bosses in general. They have always been an important part of adventure storytelling since before the written word.

I'd like to see Stealth continue to play a part in these encounters. Splinter Cell did a good job with this, and Crysis had some fun too.

[Fluffis]

Granted, I'm biased - I hate the whole idea of boss battles, and always have - but I do think you're right about this. Hitman-style missions for boss fights would be a great way to go. It would give the increased difficulty, without breaking the flow of the game. In the end, when all defences and such are down, the boss should be someone who is not much more than people you fight on an ordinary basis.

[AlexOfSpades]

If the boss combat goes the same way it did against Simons in the first DX, or against that redhead girl in IW (Pardon, cant remember her name), i would approve.

[pringlepower]

~~~
Time for my solution!

Make boss sections more like hitman missions. You have a target that needs elimination. He's in a secure (but NON-LINEAR) facility/area.

1. Get Information
There are several spots to get information about your target and his defenses. Conversation spoken or overheard, hacking his itinerary, etc..

2. Lower Defenses
Maybe a few ways to soften the defenses: Change the roster so the new recruits are on shift, shut down the automated turrets, set up a distraction.

3. Choose your method.
There should be several ways to take out a target. A few options for environmental traps and certain areas where a frontal assault can be carried out.

This is how a 'boss-killing mission' should take place in a deus ex game. The boss shouldn't require tons of ammo and dodging to take out but instead a plan of attack and methodical weakening of his defenses.

I realize this isn't going to happen. It's a classic video game cliche to have your boss blab to you before the fight to push the plot forward. Unfortunately this is lame and unrealistic, but also easier to set up as a developer.

This get information, plan things out is fine, as long as it doesn't go all Assassin's Creed.

I do think boss battles are important, in terms of gameplay and storytelling. Firstly it changes the pace a bit, so you aren't facing the same mobs of enemies over and over. And it is nice to have some strong antagonists to beat up.

[OwlSolar]

I'll be fine if they give you options for dealing with bosses. Like if you could hide then kill them stealthily, or if you could just use a killswitch to kill them without having to fight.
And personally, I'll be happy if the bosses are just very well-designed.

[pringlepower]

I'll be fine if they give you options for dealing with bosses. Like if you could hide then kill them stealthily, or if you could just use a killswitch to kill them without having to fight.
And personally, I'll be happy if the bosses are just very well-designed.

Well we are fighting cyborg-Rihanna. That's pretty good design.

[OwlSolar]

I was referring to the battles. Having you just shoot the boss repeatedly is not what I consider good design. Unless it's Vanquish.

[68_pie]

Since EM like to bang on about their 4 pillars of gameplay so much one would like to think that this would be applied to boss battles.

Eg

Combat - just a straight up fight
Stealth - sneaking into better positions, some sort of stealth kill, etc
Social - talking people into helping to tackle the boss, for example. Or maybe even go full Fallout w/ The Master and talk him into killing himself
Hacking - hack turrets to turn on the boss, release gas, that sort of thing.

I feel that this would at least allow people to maintain their play styles rather than having an arbitrary, old school boss battle.

[LeMoN_LiMe]

I liked the original where bosses like Simons and Herman were just like everyone else.

"What was that Mr. Boss? You want to kill me for my awesome shades? :cool:

Well do me a favor and hold on to this live LAM for a second first........"


I never even gave any of them time to speak.

Boss = Non-LAM Proof :D

[Irate Iguana]

I liked the original where bosses like Simons and Herman were just like everyone else.

This. I always liked the fact that these storyline characters were just regular NPC's who happened to have augmentations. In the Simons and Hermann battles I wished that they had used all of their augs more intelligently but as it stands they weren't annoying.

Mandatory boss fights that rely on a player going on a balls-out action shooting spree are not what I want in a game that prides itself on multipath solutions. There is nothing more annoying that having built and equipped a hacking character and being drawn into a gunfight where you are at a severe disadvantage. You spend the entire game avoiding conflict and hacking but then the developer decides that you have to fight this boss. Que 20 minutes of running around a room and dealing 1 damage with each shot to the boss while you curse the developers and all their relatives.

[VectorM]

Please make moar of the same threads over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Please.

[AlexOfSpades]

Please make moar of the same threads over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Please.

Is this thread repeated? Then post us an older or bigger version of it, so the mods can merge.



Please.

[VectorM]

I am not talking about boss threads specifically, but this is something that has been discussed like 9001 times already.

I am waiting for the next thread complaining about health regen again, or the 3d person...

[Pinky_Powers]

I am not talking about boss threads specifically, but this is something that has been discussed like 9001 times already.

I am waiting for the next thread complaining about health regen again, or the 3d person...

Well, this thread isn't really complaining about Human Revolution. It's on how poorly Boss fights have been used in general over the years. We don't know how Boss encounters will play out in Human Revolution. We know Adam will have to kill them, and we've been given the slightest hint that the player will have real choices in some of these encounters, and may be able to choose not to fight. But really, the whole thing is shrouded in mystery.

[LeMoN_LiMe]

Oh yes and who was it that said you had to fight the bosses in the first game?

Killphrase skipped both Herman and Anna (or you could just run away from Herman)

And going to the warehouse and dropping down the vent skipped Simons

You didn't have to kill Manderly

You could also run away from Maggie

Did I miss any?

Who said you had to "fight" any of them?

[Cronstintein]

I am not talking about boss threads specifically, but this is something that has been discussed like 9001 times already.

I am waiting for the next thread complaining about health regen again, or the 3d person...

Well feel free not to return to this thread, you will be missed I'm sure.

You may notice that I also posted a suggestion for how bosses could be WELL implemented in games like DX.


This get information, plan things out is fine, as long as it doesn't go all Assassin's Creed.

The problem I had with the assassin's creed prep work was it really had no influence on the mission. Once you had done the minimum research there was no reason to do any extra. The key to making that prep work meaningful is to have some benefits.
Plus giving the player the option to NOT do the prep work if they just want to run in there and go rambo that should be technically possible but very difficult.

[VectorM]

You may notice that I also posted a suggestion for how bosses could be WELL implemented in games like DX.


All of which have been implemented in other games and have been suggested already in different threads. You are indeed special.

And besides, they never really said anything about how you have to fight bosses. All they've said is that you'll have to kill them. Doesn't mean they will all be typical bosses with a giant "SHOOT ME HERE" sign.

Also:

I am waiting for the next thread complaining about health regen again, or the 3d person...

And guess what: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=114636

Who said you had to "fight" any of them?

They are talking about Human Revolution, not the first game. As far as the info we have right now, they might all be exactly like in the first game. Just not unskippable.

[AlexOfSpades]

With all due respect, Vector, but by stating that this thread is "repeated" or "old" indirectly, do you make the thread itself better in any way?

Or does it just make you look like a prick?

No offense, i'm just saying that all of this is unnecessary. If you think that the thread is silly or sumthin, then just leave it. There's plenty of threads that i dont post because i dont like'em.

Its through that kind of post of yours that people end up joining the Ignore lists. You can just be a nice guy and post your concept about bosses instead of using irony to criticize Cronstentein, or perhaps creating a better thread instead?

But, well, none of my business anyways.

[Donvermicelli]

I agree that the cliché Boss formula is rotten through. But I think there has to be a number of ways to handle Boss encounters that have yet to be tried. We just need innovation in these areas.

Not new but something that was featured in DX1 and used not that often: All bosses are optional and avoidable just like any other NPC in the game.

[OwlSolar]

In the original game, I just killed all the bosses anyway. The developers didn't seem to intend for you to leave Gunther or Anna alive, and all the other bosses were total pricks.

[Donvermicelli]

In the original game, I just killed all the bosses anyway. The developers didn't seem to intend for you to leave Gunther or Anna alive, and all the other bosses were total pricks.

Yet you could simple walk out of HQ letting her live and ignore Gunther at the cathedral and head for the subway instead. Simons could be outrun and after closing a door or two behind you he wouldn't catch up with you any more, Maggie Chow in Hongkong (before I forget her) could also be ignored twice. And in a sense if you merged with Helios Page would be left untouched.

My point being that it IS possible to do so, in real life why in gods name would you even attempt to fight Simons for instance? he has near infinite energy capacity(all the bosses do but still) and has all of your augs and more, logic tells you that your chances are slim and that if you sneak by him and fulfil your ultimate objective he will fall anyway. Same way that you could find the kill phrases for the mechs.

[Cronstintein]

All of which have been implemented in other games and have been suggested already in different threads. You are indeed special.

Um, name ONE game that uses what I described as their method for implementing bosses. Isn't there a bridge somewhere you can hang out under?

It's not like this thread was deceptively named, if you didn't want to read about bosses why'd you enter?



And besides, they never really said anything about how you have to fight bosses. All they've said is that you'll have to kill them. Doesn't mean they will all be typical bosses with a giant "SHOOT ME HERE" sign.

They are talking about Human Revolution, not the first game. As far as the info we have right now, they might all be exactly like in the first game. Just not unskippable.

Well this is one case where I probably don't want too much information before hand, hopefully they'll pleasantly surprise us. The demo cutscene certainly looks like it leads into a boss fight without much chance of subtlety or tactics. Hopefully it's misleading.

With all due respect, Vector, but by stating that this thread is "repeated" or "old" indirectly, do you make the thread itself better in any way?

Or does it just make you look like a prick?

Not directed at me but I think I know the answer! :D

[Brock]

Thinking now about bosses I actually never thought about Gunther, Simon, Anna or any other NPC with unique name as a boss. For me they seemed like regular NPC i encountered in my path and have a chance to fight or try to avoid confrontation. I really hope that it will stay that way also in DXHR at least for most of the named NPCs (as we already know there will be some NPCs you will need to kill if i remember correctly)

[kikilkiki]

i'll be fine if they give you options for dealing with bosses. Like if you could hide then kill them stealthily, or if you could just use a killswitch to kill them without having to fight.

+ 1

[xaduha]

thinking now about bosses i actually never thought about gunther, simons, anna or any other npc with unique name as a boss. For me they seemed like regular npc i encountered in my path and have a chance to fight or try to avoid confrontation. I really hope that it will stay that way also in dxhr at least for most of the named npcs (as we already know there will be some npcs you will need to kill if i remember correctly)

+ 1

[Pinky_Powers]

The demo cutscene certainly looks like it leads into a boss fight without much chance of subtlety or tactics. Hopefully it's misleading.

It's misleading. An interviewer asked Jacques-Belletête about the forced Barrett Boss Fight, and after conferring with their PR people for a moment he answered coyly "you have choices even there. Okay, you don't have a choice to get punched in the face, but who's to say what happens after that."

I'm paraphrasing from memory, but the gist of it was a strong suggestion that the player might be able to avoid the fight... which sounds like a sharp contradiction to previous statements about having to kill the Bosses in the game. Except, no one ever said you'd have to fight and kill them on their first attack against you.

So, honestly, the whole thing is thrown into frantic confusion once again. :D

[OwlSolar]

Yet you could simple walk out of HQ letting her live and ignore Gunther at the cathedral and head for the subway instead. Simons could be outrun and after closing a door or two behind you he wouldn't catch up with you any more, Maggie Chow in Hongkong (before I forget her) could also be ignored twice. And in a sense if you merged with Helios Page would be left untouched.

My point being that it IS possible to do so, in real life why in gods name would you even attempt to fight Simons for instance? he has near infinite energy capacity(all the bosses do but still) and has all of your augs and more, logic tells you that your chances are slim and that if you sneak by him and fulfil your ultimate objective he will fall anyway. Same way that you could find the kill phrases for the mechs.
The game, well, the story rather, clearly didn't intend for you to avoid them. The intent was for you to kill them. I've never been a big fan of breaking games. It's why I've never used LAM climbing, for one.

...And this isn't real life. But even in real life, if I was an augmented super soldier, I'd definitely at least try to kill Simons for various reasons, then find that it's actually rather easy and that his threat was way blown out of proportion.

[Pinky_Powers]

...And this isn't real life. But even in real life, if I was an augmented super soldier, I'd definitely at least try to kill Simons for various reasons, then find that it's actually rather easy and that his threat was way blown out of proportion.

Indeed! In real life, if I was J.C. Denton, or Mario, I'd see that I had a GEP Gun and give Simons my best sneak attack.

[Fluffis]

The game, well, the story rather, clearly didn't intend for you to avoid them. The intent was for you to kill them. I've never been a big fan of breaking games. It's why I've never used LAM climbing, for one.


Simons, at least, does have at least one line (I haven't played it in a while now) after you just outrun him. This shows that it was intended that you should be able to avoid him.

[OwlSolar]

What about the second time?

[IOOI]

I think that, besides the first boss fights in DX, the final level of DX is also a good example of how it should be done - if you can postpone the fights the better.