Square Enix has ten-year DX plan if HR performs well

[Jerion]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=271211

Interesting. Maybe this will offer the opportunity for a full-on fanservice game down the road.

@ Pinky: No, this is not it.

[Kodaemon]

Looking forward to Final Deus Ex XXIV2 Ultimate Edition+

[MechBFP]

Oh dear

[WildcatPhoenix]

Deus Ex 3, for example, is something we're trying to revive. We want to keep on producing profit from that IP for the next ten years

Yikes.

[Blade_hunter]

So Fan service of this reboot, no thanks.

[Irate Iguana]

Interesting. Maybe this will offer the opportunity for a full-on fanservice game down the road.


It will not. They are only looking at DX as a means of generating them buttloads of cash. What he is essentially saying is that they want to keep milking the franchise if this title proves that the franchise is worth milking. This is kotick-centric thinking and not indicative of a company willing to make a full-on fanservice game.

[Kodaemon]

1. Deus Ekuso
2. ???
3. PUROFITU !!

[AlexOfSpades]

I guess we could expect that a company in a capitalist world to want to make "buttloads of cash".

They're not making games to make the children happy. They're making games to get rich.

I work in the office of a bolt and steel tools factory. We dont make them for the bolt fans.

We make them for the profit.

[WildcatPhoenix]

Quantity goes up, quality goes down.

Corporatized capitalism in a nutshell, boys and girls.

[mad825]

I suppose this is all right...once I've ripped out my soul.

[Jerion]

Probably right, but I'm a terminal optimist who refuses to become too jaded.

[Ashpolt]

I think WildcatPhoenix and mad825 summarise my feelings on this entirely. If I thought any future sequels might actually fix DXHR's problems, I'd be all for it. But we all know that if this game sells, EM and SE will just take it as a sign that dumbing down DX was the right way to go, and will carry on further down that route. :(

[Kodaemon]

I think WildcatPhoenix and mad825 summarise my feelings on this entirely. If I thought any future sequels might actually fix DXHR's problems, I'd be all for it. But we all know that if this game sells, EM and SE will just take it as a sign that dumbing down DX was the right way to go, and will carry on further down that route. :(

This. We're doomed no matter what.

[Blade_hunter]

I think WildcatPhoenix and mad825 summarise my feelings on this entirely. If I thought any future sequels might actually fix DXHR's problems, I'd be all for it. But we all know that if this game sells, EM and SE will just take it as a sign that dumbing down DX was the right way to go, and will carry on further down that route. :(

Thanks for your input, that what I feel.

[Coyotegrey]

Jeepers. It's Friday! Let's be happy and positive!

[AlexOfSpades]

Really.

Well then i must be very, very dumb and i just realized it.

Because DXHR is toootally a game for dumbs.

Like, third person? Only dumb people like it. Regenerating Health? Dumbest thing ever.

Takedowns?

Vampire Bloodlines, also known as the dumbest game in the entire planet, has third person, regenerating health and takedowns.

How havent i seen it before?

Totally dumb.

Besides Square makes only dumb games.

Check Final Fantasy. Dumbest thing EVER.

Totally agree, Square will toootally dumb everything down.

[Kodaemon]

Hey hey Coyotegrey! Good to see you. We still need clarification on difficulty. We now know the team is working on difficulty levels, but what about level scaling?

[Mindmute]

Jeepers. It's Friday! Let's be happy and positive!

I'm going to second his.

Either way if DX:HR is on par with what I'd like it to be, the sequels will be a good thing.
If it's not, then what's the difference if they keep making sequels? It's not like I'd be seeing anything new from DX from any other source anyway, so I'll just not buy it if I don't like it.

[Bluey71]

Jeepers. It's Friday! Let's be happy and positive!


You mean in a 'lets ignore the reality and see the game through rose tinted glasses' kind of way?

[Kodaemon]

The industry has grown up. In the late 90's. Right now it's going old and senile and approaching inevitable death.

[WildcatPhoenix]

Look, I realize these games don't make themselves. And of course Warren and the crew at Ion Storm wanted Deus Ex to make tons of cash so they could go on making great games.

But that's my point- you make a great game first, then you get rich. When the profit is the primary focus, you lose sight of what you are doing. I don't make a ton of money, and my free time is limited; therefore, I only want to purchase games made by people who love making the best damn game possible, people committed to video-gaming as an art form and an interactive medium unlike any other, with the potential to explore new methods of storytelling and simulation. Video games can go further than books or movies. If a studio can commit to that level of immersion, can truly pull me into a story and world that is more interesting, more exciting, more fun than my own, then I will be glad to make that studio very, very rich.

But getting rich is not the goal. It's the byproduct of great game design.

[Coyotegrey]

You mean in a 'lets ignore the reality and see the game through rose tinted glasses' kind of way?

No glasses required. :) Everyone here's put a lot of time, hard work, and, especially, passion into this title, and the last thing we want is for all this to be for nothing, and to be diluted.

Sometimes people forget that people work here. People who spent hundreds, maybe more, of hours playing the Deus Ex series. This isn't a cash-in on a legendary IP in ANY sort of way, and if you call it that to anyone around here, it hurts.

Please, before you post, keep all this in mind. The developers DO read this forum, a lot, and knee-jerk reactions and misconceptions make sadfaces. :( <----- sadface

So, like I said, it's Friday! Let's be happy and positive!

Edit: What WildcatPhoenix said: "But getting rich is not the goal. It's the byproduct of great game design."

[AlexOfSpades]

Coyoteman, quick question:

Does Eidos Montreal employees work during the weekend too?

And ~ how are you? Got level 18 already?

[breakdown234]

well this is the end guys i think the world really is gona end 2012 if not then my gamers sanity for sure will....:nut::nut::nut::nut::nut::nut::nut::nut::nut::nut::nut::nut:


btw ....the guys right its friday why not invite freddy over to eidos montreal to wake them up out of their nightmare they are creating.....

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/~pdeh/epicFAIL.jpg


update: im with alexofspades on this one. -,-´ and the rest of sane real gamers.peace

[AlexOfSpades]

well this is the end guys i think the world really is gona end 2012 if not then my gamers sanity for sure will....






Meanwhile in Eidos, a sadface occurs and a friday is ruined

[Mindmute]

Meanwhile in Eidos, a sadface occurs and a friday is ruined

Yup, you're right and by someone who is nonetheless an actual troll and likely ruining the image of people who have valid concerns and constructive criticism. Either way, another one for the ignore list.

[Coyotegrey]

Coyoteman, quick question:

Does Eidos Montreal employees work during the weekend too?

And ~ how are you? Got level 18 already?

I'm having a GREAT morning. Seriously. Doing a lot of community planning and meeting with people to get details worked out and scheduled.

So...working on getting 18. Maybe I'll hit 20 and I can get my mount. We'll see, though.

I can't speak for all of EM, but I know many of the people in marketing work from home for varying durations during the weekend. There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes. We have to work with people all around the globe to establish and execute ideas, as well as follow-up. We don't just say "make cool advertisement. Go!" and then sit back and watch. These are some very, very hardworking people.

[Kodaemon]

Hey now, the industry may be horrible nowadays, but HR is looking comparatively good. ;)

[breakdown234]

surely your joking right kodaemon....xD

[pha]

1. Deus Ekuso
2. ???
3. PUROFITU !!

:thumb:

Post of the aeon.

[Kodaemon]

surely your joking right kodaemon....xD

No, I'm serious. For all my criticisms, this is still one of the few games I'm really looking forward to currently.

[AlexOfSpades]

Yup, you're right and by someone who is nonetheless an actual troll and likely ruining the image of people who have valid concerns and constructive criticism. Either way, another one for the ignore list.

Dude, did you just ignored me?

What have i ever done to you!?

What...!?

... ):

This is pathethic. After that one, i really wonder if it's worth to post here anymore.

[Blade_hunter]

beware sadfaces is contagious :(

[Mindmute]

Dude, did you just ignored me?

What have i ever done to you!?

What...!?

... ):

This is pathethic. After that one, i really wonder if it's worth to post here anymore.

Not you! I added breakdown234 to my list, I was agreeing with you, fella! :)

[Irate Iguana]

Sometimes people forget that people work here. People who spent hundreds, maybe more, of hours playing the Deus Ex series. This isn't a cash-in on a legendary IP in ANY sort of way, and if you call it that to anyone around here, it hurts.

The people working on HR might very well be very enthusiastic about the game and wanting to make a stellar DX game. The CEO of Squeenix is probably only looking for a series to milk like a cow. Hearing him say that he is looking to milk the game for at least 10 years is not something that gamers are looking forward to.

[Coyotegrey]

The people working on HR might very well be very enthusiastic about the game and wanting to make a stellar DX game. The CEO of Squeenix is probably only looking for a series to milk like a cow. Hearing him say that he is looking to milk the game for at least 10 years is not something that gamers are looking forward to.

Please keep in mind that he didn't say how we'll see the series in the next 10 years, including how often. I'm obligated to not name examples, but there are companies currently demonstrating that a long-term plan doesn't necessarily mean yearly iterations of a franchise. Also, long-term plans are often mentioned in regards to title-specific MMOs.

[nexus]

I don't understand you people. The DX universe can be expanded as never before and you complain for that. So what? Want to stick with first DX and waiting for the slow death of community? This is ridiculous.

[AlexOfSpades]

Actually, after Final Fantasy Online...

Maybe.. an MMO could come out of this franchise.

Is it possible?

Would it be good...?

I cant even imagine

[FlyingDove]

In every medium, profit always comes first, regardless of how original a piece of work is. That is no surprise to me. However, thinking that the games industry is doomed and trapped in this dumbed down universe of games is silly to me. Eventually, every game will need to grow a lot more complex, in order to differentiate itself from it competitors. If franchises like Gears of War and COD continue, I see RPG elements being introduced in the future. A game's setting or quality level of gameplay alone will not be enough to keep traditional games selling many copies. It won't be long before people get tired of a Vietnam War setting for an FPS game, or of seeing endless space shooters that all feel the same.

As soon as franchises like DX become very popular, we might not receive everything that we've liked from the first DX game, but other game developers might be inspired in more positive ways to go ahead and create games that give players a lot more freedom and more genres to explore.

[Mindmute]

This message is hidden because breakdown234 is on your ignore list.


Hehe blissful silence. See what I mean Alex? ;)

Anyway...

Actually, after Final Fantasy Online...

Maybe.. an MMO could come out of this franchise.


I don't see the Deus Ex series lending itself too well to a MMO type of game. It's a bit too "personal" storywise and we all know the servers would get annoyingly littered with characters called "JC" or "Adam". I'd rather see a succession of good single-player experiences and maybe a co-op oriented game if they nail everything else perfectly.
My new MMO goodness will have to remain with WoDOnline ;)

[breakdown234]

nexus nobodys complaing about them wanting to use the ip but we all fear that if they take dxhr as example to expand uppon atleast the camera ,combat ,etc system then itll fail miserably + the level design is nice and whatnot but we hardly seen any so we cant comment on the levels etc but what we can comment on is what we have seen , like the 2 hands on gun while magicaly dragging the dead body with thin air maybe he got telekinetc powers ,wohooo.xD

[Kodaemon]

"MMO" and "good" are mutually exclusive.

[Irate Iguana]

Please keep in mind that he didn't say how we'll see the series in the next 10 years, including how often.

Well, I'm going to assume that he meant we'll see the series again as a videogame. Also I sincerely doubt he wants you to make 1 game in those 10 years.


I'm obligated to not name examples, but there are companies currently demonstrating that a long-term plan doesn't necessarily mean yearly iterations of a franchise.

Indeed. Blizzard has released SCII after 12 years and will undoubtedly release DIII somewhere in the next few years. Valve has made HL2 after 6 years and will probably release Episode 3 before the heatdeath of the universe. These companies generally don't announce that they are planning on sticking by a franchise for a while to make them profit. They just do.


Also, long-term plans are often mentioned in regards to title-specific MMOs.

Oh god, please no. Not another ******* MMO.


I don't understand you people. The DX universe can be expanded as never before and you complain for that. So what? Want to stick with first DX and waiting for the slow death of community? This is ridiculous.

Fallout got its universe expanded with Tactics, FO:BoS, Fallout 3 and now NV. Tactics was the last game even attempting to stay close to the original game. Extra attention is not always wanted.

[AlexOfSpades]

This message is hidden because breakdown234 is on your ignore list.


Hehe blissful silence. See what I mean Alex? ;)

Fantástico.

I guess i'll do the same, he posted a huuuge picture of an anime girl with a pen shoved in her eye. Its disgusting.

Edit:

Now, that's a good one, hope EM saw that:

CO-OP.

I've been suggesting that over the DXHR Multiplayer and Thief 4 threads foreeever with no feedback.

[FlyingDove]

Well, if you think about it, it's also kind of interesting to see what an eastern game publisher will have in mind for what was originally a Western game franchise. How will western and eastern games' design philosophies differ and look similar? Maybe we can shatter that barrier which is causing many western and eastern world games to be so derivative.

[Blade_hunter]

RPG elements are introduced in a lot of games most shooters have RPG elements now, that's not the future, it has been made from the past and the present.
Deus Ex, system shock, influenced a lot of games to get RPG elements in their formula. That's far to be new, you can have XP and things of that kind in shooters, that won't turn them suddenly into RPGs.

[Ashpolt]

No glasses required. :) Everyone here's put a lot of time, hard work, and, especially, passion into this title, and the last thing we want is for all this to be for nothing, and to be diluted.

Sometimes people forget that people work here. People who spent hundreds, maybe more, of hours playing the Deus Ex series. This isn't a cash-in on a legendary IP in ANY sort of way, and if you call it that to anyone around here, it hurts.

Please, before you post, keep all this in mind. The developers DO read this forum, a lot, and knee-jerk reactions and misconceptions make sadfaces. :( <----- sadface

Hey, we the community have been letting the team know exactly what we'd like to see improved in this game and how they could go about that without putting off "less hardcore" gamers for over two years now - things like making third person and regenerating health optional, not removing them entirely, but giving us the choice to disable them. We've even tried to be as constructive as any community you'll ever see on the internet. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=110449) Eidos Montreal have ignored all of this. If some of the guys and gals over there are getting hurt that we haven't all magically done a 180 turn and started liking decisions that we have been talking about disliking strongly for over two years - well, I'm sorry, but tough. You're putting out a product to the public, one that has some features that a notable part of your fanbase have been very vocal about disliking, so you're going to have to get used to criticism. It's not like we haven't been letting you know since this game was announced how you could make it appeal to us more.

[Kodaemon]

Please keep in mind that he didn't say how we'll see the series in the next 10 years, including how often. I'm obligated to not name examples, but there are companies currently demonstrating that a long-term plan doesn't necessarily mean yearly iterations of a franchise. Also, long-term plans are often mentioned in regards to title-specific MMOs.

Oh please, Kyle, this is Square Enix we're talking about here. The company that gave us Final Fantasy X 2 and n+1 Final Fantasy VII spinoffs.

[AlexOfSpades]

There was Dirge of Cerberus, that shooter showing Vincent Valentine's story...

... and Crysis Core, showing Zack Fair's background...

... if we had those in Deus Ex, properly implemented, wouldnt be so bad.

I would have an erection with a Walton Simons game.

Or then a dancing game. Really, everyone has those tapdance shoes back in the first DX. Would be cool.

I bet Gunther Hermann destroys in robot dance.

[FlyingDove]

RPG elements are introduced in a lot of games most shooters have RPG elements now, that's not the future, it has been made from the past and the present.
Deus Ex, system shock, influenced a lot of games to get RPG elements in their formula. That's far to be new, you can have XP and things of that kind in shooters, that won't turn them suddenly into RPGs.
Yeah, I know where you mean. We currently have online multiplayer for many FPSs that allow a player to gain a level. And each time that happens, a new weapon or weapon add-on becomes available. I am talking more about things like a more sophisticated inventory system, a wider array of weapons (other than just guns), and a much stronger storyline that contains a morality system as just a few of those things.

Spec Ops: The Line is going to be one of the first games to offer a strong storyline, along with choices and consequences, for what is purely a tactical shooter. Assuming that Atomic Games is still finding a way to publish Six Days in Fallujah, we should eventually see more and more of an emphasis on storytelling.

[Bluey71]

:) Everyone here's put a lot of time, hard work, and, especially, passion into this title, and the last thing we want is for all this to be for nothing, and to be diluted.

Creative people are naturally passionate about what they do, in this case though, those creative people have been misled. You mention the word 'dilute', but you seem to have no grasp that you as a company, are/have diluted core aspects of dx game play and for what reason. The excuse you have used for replacing the health system is a clear indication of the reason.

Sometimes people forget that people work here. People who spent hundreds, maybe more, of hours playing the Deus Ex series. This isn't a cash-in on a legendary IP in ANY sort of way, and if you call it that to anyone around here, it hurts.

How do you think we feel, seeing yet another series going the same way as every other game out there - look at what happened the Rainbow Six series, look at what it was and what it is now. As a gamer how do you think I feel seeing one of the best FP shooters turned into the dribble it is now.

Please, before you post, keep all this in mind. The developers DO read this forum, a lot, and knee-jerk reactions and misconceptions make sadfaces. :( <----- sadface Look, I've been here for 3 years and I haven't seen sight nor sound of any developer here so spare me the 'we do read this board etc'. You've had some amazing ideas posted here over that time and those people may as well have not posted at all for the notice EM took.

As for sad face's read above.

[Aceyalone7777]

@Blue71

How on earth can you judge a game like that? Just be patient and positive for the next 5 months and then you can shove it as much as you want.

You think they can even change it now? They've done what they've done. And from the story perspective DE:HR is one of the FEW games that can still claim it has a certain maturity (at least it seems) contrary to the bulk of the games developed.

To build this game, developers actually made some hard choices that other games are not even considering, to begin with. No multiplayer, extra cost for parts you will never see in the game, professional scriptwriter, complex A.I. At least we can give them a chance. If the game fails, we will go on with our lives, they probably go out of job.

[WildcatPhoenix]

Hey, we the community have been letting the team know exactly what we'd like to see improved in this game and how they could go about that without putting off "less hardcore" gamers for over two years now - things like making third person and regenerating health optional, not removing them entirely, but giving us the choice to disable them. We've even tried to be as constructive as any community you'll ever see on the internet. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=110449) Eidos Montreal have ignored all of this. If some of the guys and gals over there are getting hurt that we haven't all magically done a 180 turn and started liking decisions that we have been talking about disliking strongly for over two years - well, I'm sorry, but tough. You're putting out a product to the public, one that has some features that a notable part of your fanbase have been very vocal about disliking, so you're going to have to get used to criticism. It's not like we haven't been letting you know since this game was announced how you could make it appeal to us more.

Exactly. Exactly.

The time for being worried about hurt feelings is long past over, ladies and gents. We've tried for years (literal years) to offer feedback, constructive criticism, and suggestions to the developers at EM. They've ignored us completely.

So they'll have to live with it if we aren't happy with the end-results.

[pha]

@Blue71

To build this game, developers actually made some hard choices that other games are not even considering, to begin with.

Yeah, compiling every working formula of next gen action games is really bold. Kudos to them.

[puzl]

Remember though, the initial plan for DX:HR was for it to be completed in 24 months, max. That obviously didn't happen. Developers for the most part want to put out something decent and it has been proven time and time again that you can't make DX-style games fast. Publishers on the other hand are interested in money and making their franchises as profitable as possible. Shock horror!

I'm sure DX:HR will be well received critically and commercially. Sequels (or whatever they will be) were always to be expected and I wouldn't let some SE business speak determine exactly how everything will play out. In 10 years, we might just get 2 games afterall.

As for all the other things this community has moaned at over the past 3 years or so, it's naive to think that developers will listen to everything this (small) demographic wants from the game. In this respect, I really hope Eidos allow DX to be as moddable and open as possible. Put out a decent game and then let the community shape it to everyones liking, just like with Oblivion/Fallout etc. The sheer amount of mods for those games in particular pretty much made everyone happy in the end.

[Corpus]

Incoming DLC spam.

[Blade_hunter]

Yeah, I know where you mean. We currently have online multiplayer for many FPSs that allow a player to gain a level. And each time that happens, a new weapon or weapon add-on becomes available. I am talking more about things like a more sophisticated inventory system, a wider array of weapons (other than just guns), and a much stronger storyline that contains a morality system as just a few of those things.

Spec Ops: The Line is going to be one of the first games to offer a strong storyline, along with choices and consequences, for what is purely a tactical shooter. Assuming that Atomic Games is still finding a way to publish Six Days in Fallujah, we should eventually see more and more of an emphasis on storytelling.

Well dude, that shows how much that kind of thing is widely spread around games.

But full fledged inventories has been used in games without specific RPG mention, RE4 for example
Wider array of weapons, well it exists in shooters as well as role playing games, but I ask for weapons, but also for tools, and means to use elements in different ways.
Like having a crowbar and using it to open some doors, not only for blowing stuff up.
I always ask for this; more interactivity.

[FlyingDove]

Remember though, the initial plan for DX:HR was for it to be completed in 24 months, max. That obviously didn't happen. Developers for the most part want to put out something decent and it has been proven time and time again that you can't make DX-style games fast. Publishers on the other hand are interested in money and making their franchises as profitable as possible. Shock horror!

I'm sure DX:HR will be well received critically and commercially. Sequels (or whatever they will be) were always to be expected and I wouldn't let some SE business speak determine exactly how everything will play out. In 10 years, we might just get 2 games afterall.

As for all the other things this community has moaned at over the past 3 years or so, it's naive to think that developers will listen to everything this (small) demographic wants from the game. In this respect, I really hope Eidos allow DX to be as moddable and open as possible. Put out a decent game and then let the community shape it to everyones liking, just like with Oblivion/Fallout etc. The sheer amount of mods for those games in particular pretty much made everyone happy in the end.
puzl, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Even if DXHR doesn't turn out exactly as we want it to be, there's always the modding community to look at.

[Blade_hunter]

puzl, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Even if DXHR doesn't turn out exactly as we want it to be, there's always the modding community to look at.

If there is modding tools. Don't forget there is no sign of modding tools in the horizon.

[Ashpolt]

As for all the other things this community has moaned at over the past 3 years or so, it's naive to think that developers will listen to everything this (small) demographic wants from the game. In this respect, I really hope Eidos allow DX to be as moddable and open as possible. Put out a decent game and then let the community shape it to everyones liking, just like with Oblivion/Fallout etc. The sheer amount of mods for those games in particular pretty much made everyone happy in the end.

I didn't expect Eidos to listen everything we said - even when we were just saying "please make these things optional", keeping their vision of the game intact for those who wanted to play it that way. What I am saying though is that we've told them exactly what we wanted, and they've chosen to ignore that, so they have no right to be upset that we don't like the results.

[Rindill the Red]

I think WildcatPhoenix and mad825 summarise my feelings on this entirely. If I thought any future sequels might actually fix DXHR's problems, I'd be all for it. But we all know that if this game sells, EM and SE will just take it as a sign that dumbing down DX was the right way to go, and will carry on further down that route. :(

This is illogical.

A game is more than the sum of it's parts, and the Squeenix and EM people know that, and they know that a game's success isn't completely based upon a few game mechanic design decisions. I'm thinking as the series continues they will just continue to get it more and more right.

This is awesome news.

All of you assume that the people working on the game or the people in management have the reasoning capabilities of a child, but that's just not true.

Actually, after Final Fantasy Online...

Maybe.. an MMO could come out of this franchise.

Is it possible?

Would it be good...?

I cant even imagine

Deus EX would suck as an MMO. MMO's are all ****. The old one's should be euthanized. The young ones should be murdered. And the in development ones should be aborted. The end.

"We have dozens of IPs, some of which we wish to build into franchises," Square CEO Yoichi Wada told MCV.

About people thinking like children... this is the CEO of Square Enix talking. The CEO... he's going to be talking about profit, because his service is to the shareholders and the company... not the gamers. If the developers started talking about profit, then you could understandably dislike their approach, but no developer on the DX:HR team has ever spoken like profit is there main goal. The management wants profit, so they of course can push the developers in certain directions, but I think the developers ultimately want to produce a good game.

[Pinky_Powers]

@ Pinky: No, this is not it.

You're late, and I am growing jittery!

[puzl]

I didn't expect Eidos to listen everything we said - even when we were just saying "please make these things optional", keeping their vision of the game intact for those who wanted to play it that way. What I am saying though is that we've told them exactly what we wanted, and they've chosen to ignore that, so they have no right to be upset that we don't like the results.

Oh I know and for the most part, I agree with the general community criticisms here. Unfortunately, this forum is just one voice amongst many and I doubt Eidos will be losing sleep if a few hardcore fans here are left saddened by the choices they make.

And all these things can be solved simply by making a good SDK and encouraging open mod support. I imagine one of the first mods would be a "classic DX" style mod, removing all third person action elements, takedowns, etc... possibly removing regen health and adding classic-style medpacks and the likes. It would probably be quite easy too.

In an ideal world, DX:HR would offer a "realism" mode built in, which directly implements all these things, but it's very unlikely to be honest. Hopefully the mod support is decent so hardcore fans can play it how we want to.

[Ashpolt]

This is illogical.

A game is more than the sum of it's parts, and the Squeenix and EM people know that, and they know that a game's success isn't completely based upon a few game mechanic design decisions. I'm thinking as the series continues they will just continue to get it more and more right.

This is awesome news.

All of you assume that the people working on the game or the people in management have the reasoning capabilities of a child, but that's just not true.

Not at all. I think the team at EM are a bright bunch and know what they're doing. The thing is, they want to sell this game to Johnny Call of Duty more than they want to sell it to the existing Deus Ex fanbase, and their game decisions are reflecting that. If the game sells well, they'll say "our decision were right" (ignoring any possibility that it may have sold better / been better received without these questionable gameplay decisions) and continue down the same path.

Oh I know and for the most part, I agree with the general community criticisms here. Unfortunately, this forum is just one voice amongst many and I doubt Eidos will be losing sleep if a few hardcore fans here are left saddened by the choices they make.

Well, according to Kyle that's exactly what's happening, which is what prompted this discussion in the first place! :P

[breakdown234]

power to puzl and the likes ... finally someone that sees it as we all do ... as i said as first ... mod support is crucial if they want us to actually take our time with this game instead of just playing it thru once and then kicking it to the bin...;)

[Kodaemon]

I don't expect an SDK.

The engine is the one from Crystal Dynamics. None of their games ever got mod tools.

And the industry trends is: "Mods? but we don't get MONEY from those! Let's make our own crappy mods instead and sell them! We'll call this Downloadable Content."

[JCpie]

One thing is for sure, however many 'Deus Ex' games they release they'll never tear me away from the original.

[breakdown234]

dude try being optimistic i think theyll have a sdk i mean crysis 2 isnt even out yet and that games gona have an sdk even for the console version talk about your gamers being worth something to you

[breakdown234]

jcpie well dxhr shouldve been that expansion of the original but what they do they decide to go with the generic zombie gamer crowd not with the devoted fans ,-,-´

btw .such as crowd begs for you to throw them a bit of dirt since they wouldnt get anything else or so it seems and us wanting a good meal ..well ..lets just say ..home cooking is the best..xD

[Blade_hunter]

I don't expect an SDK.

The engine is the one from Crystal Dynamics. None of their games ever got mod tools.

And the industry trends is: "Mods? but we don't get MONEY from those! Let's make our own crappy mods instead and sell them! We'll call this Downloadable Content."

That's the greatest problem to me.

[breakdown234]

and you know what im starting to get this dmc2 vibe from the game ill betcha theyll release it and itll be a flop and theyll try to make everybody forget it was ever created then make another deus ex with everything right and theyll be like: ohh we didnt expect this .xD

[AlexOfSpades]

Uh, Ashpolt, why exactly do you think the game is intended for the Johnny Call of Duty?

Can you please number me the reasons?

[puzl]

Then we need to hassle Coyotegrey and bully him into getting an SDK for us. I'll grab his legs...

[subtlesnake]

Yeah, compiling every working formula of next gen action games is really bold. Kudos to them.
Because every action game these days adopts a multi-path, multi-solution approach to level design, with branching plot outcomes, and genuine possibilities for social interaction?

[breakdown234]

ok i take his invisible tentacle...xD

ps . looks like some people around here are still looking thru rosy glasses...xD

[Bluey71]

Because every action game these days adopts a multi-path, multi-solution approach to level design, with branching plot outcomes, and genuine possibilities for social interaction?

Don't twist his post, you know exactly what he refers to. Or do you need further help in understanding? If so go back to the beginning of this forum and start reading.

[Kodaemon]

Uh, Ashpolt, why exactly do you think the game is intended for the Johnny Call of Duty?

Can you please number me the reasons?

Because it's like DX with half of the features cut and replaced with currently popular gimmicks like regenerating health, over the top melee kills and a GoW cover system?

[puzl]

Because it's like DX with half of the features cut and replaced with currently popular gimmicks like regenerating health, over the top melee kills and a GoW cover system?

Half a DX is still 10x a COD game though, sir :)

[breakdown234]

not to meniton 3rd person..xD

[Blade_hunter]

Then we need to hassle Coyotegrey and bully him into getting an SDK for us. I'll grab his legs...

Poor Coyotegrey, he didn't asked for this ...
Try to ask the directors instead; coyote have no power in regards to the game he is just able to inform and communicate with the developers even if I think the team should be more "responsive" than that

[breakdown234]

yeah but we want more than just half a game ,lol

[AlexOfSpades]

Because it's like DX with half of the features cut and replaced with currently popular gimmicks like regenerating health, over the top melee kills and a GoW cover system?

Its not half of the game, buddy. Way less.

And, with the exception of cover system, Bloodlines had the same features.

Was it more alike to CoD fans? Do you know any Halo player that loves it because of that?

That's naïve.

As i posted in the beggining of the thread, Bloodlines had regenerating health, third person insta kill takedowns (Not only the feed, but also each melee weapon had a special animation).

Was it bad, or "mainstream", or dumbed down? Noo, not at all, no way, because of the RPG elements and the scenario were so mature, your average CoD jerk wouldnt ever be able to understand it.

That's why i dont think the game is dumbed down at all. Takedowns or regenerating health aren't dumbing anything.

There are good games with those "gimmicks", and still they are far away from CoD or Halo.

About cover system, i just think it makes more sense than the insane dodging and strafing that the first Deus Ex presented us.

Or do you really think that real modern combat works like that, with a soldier running and crouching holding an assault rifle with just one hand trying to kill you, like in the first DX?

It will just make things more real.

Got it?

[pha]

Because every action game these days adopts a multi-path, multi-solution approach to level design, with branching plot outcomes, and genuine possibilities for social interaction?

No, silly, because they replaced many good and usable gameplay features of the original DX with dumber and simpler mechanics from financially successful "next gen" games. Try reading the rest of the topic.

And what do we know about their implementation of multi-path, anyway? Unless I missed something all the gameplay footage we've seen so far was stealth ONLY or combat ONLY. If we won't be able to improvise or change our approach during a mission, e.g. there are too many scripted events which prevent changing our tactics, or all enemies will permanently "lock on us" even if we completely hide from sight etc, this whole multi-path thing will be quite a disappointment.

[subtlesnake]

Don't twist his post, you know exactly what he refers to. Or do you need further help in understanding? If so go back to the beginning of this forum and start reading.
And, Aceyalone7777's comment, "To build this game, developers actually made some hard choices that other games are not even considering, to begin with", stands. Taken on its own merits, Human Revolution is a supremely ambitious game.

[puzl]

Poor Coyotegrey, he didn't asked for this ...
Try to ask the directors instead; coyote have no power in regards to the game he is just able to inform and communicate with the developers even if I think the team should be more "responsive" than that

He's the closest we've got to a direct line with the developers and has the advantage of reading these forums on a regular basis and knowing the general concerns/suggestions the community want. I don't think an SDK would be frowned upon by ANYONE in this forum and outside it and they genuinely can improve a game and keep people interested in the franchise. I honestly think people should stop moaning about 3rd person/takedowns etc, as they are here to stay now and it's way too late in development to change them. An SDK on the other hand isn't and if enough demand for it is there, it will hopefully convince them to release one. Then we can fix whatever we want ourselves and make the game we want, without forcing it on others.

[Bluey71]

There are good games with those "gimmicks", and still they are far away from CoD or Halo.

Are you trying to say we should be thankful and settle for second best? No can do.

[AlexOfSpades]

No, dear.

I'm trying to say that the game can still be good, as Bloodlines were, with those features, without being dumbed down at all.

That is, you guys are over reacting. Sheesh.

[Kodaemon]

The third person switch for melee in Bloodlines was probably the absolutely worst thing about that game design-wise, way to sell your point there.

[AlexOfSpades]

The third person switch for melee in Bloodlines was probably the absolutely worst thing about that game design-wise, way to sell your point there.

Indeed.

I'd take it off if i was the developer, too.

But did it made the game "dumbed down", or following the "modern gimmicks" ?

No way.

Did it made the game bad, as a lot of people think DXHR will be?

Nooooope.

[pha]

Health regen makes much more sense in Bloodlines than it does in DX:HR because the industry as a wh... I mean, you're a vampire in that game.

Forced third person during melee combat is horrible, but the game was still great despite that feature, not because of it. And IIRC it took too long to enable first person melee with unofficial patches. So we can assume that it was, what do you call it, "hard coded"? Since DX:HR isn't released yet, we can still biyatch about its third person instead of saying "Oh well the game can be great despite third person animations". Not that it will change anything of course...

[AlexOfSpades]

I wonder if they're reading this!

Oh.

Hi, Jonatchoo.

Jonatchoo? What is that, a sneeze?

Well, uh, hi, i'm glad you guys over EM are reading this!

You know, uh, i think you're a cool guy.

And have you seen what they did to you over the Caption Fun Thread? Lmao.

[subtlesnake]

No, silly, because they replaced many good and usable gameplay features of the original DX with dumber and simpler mechanics from financially successful "next gen" games. Try reading the rest of the topic.
Yes, and there's no reason why a game featuring some of these mechanics, can't offer the kind of choice and consequence - the kind of gameplay and narrative freedom, that features in FPS hybrids like Deus Ex or Bloodlines, or System Shock. And to achieve such a thing, in itself would be a massive accomplishment, irrespective of whether the end result is completely 'true' to Deus Ex.

If EM wanted a straightforward first/third person shooter, they wouldn't have bothered with any of these things; certainly no one else in the industry is. They're only making their lives a lot harder by insisting that every objective must be completable, in a non-violent or violent way, whether through social interaction, environmental interaction, or direct combat.

cAnd what do we know about their implementation of multi-path, anyway? Unless I missed something all the gameplay footage we've seen so far was stealth ONLY or combat ONLY. If we won't be able to improvise or change our approach during a mission, e.g. there are too many scripted events which prevent changing our tactics, or all enemies will permanently "lock on us" even if we completely hide from sight etc, this whole multi-path thing will be quite a disappointment.
Well, it was indicated in the previews that you can mix and match, and I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do that. Any half-decent stealth system will allow the player to break away when spotted to regroup (using the cloak aug, for example).

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

You'd think EM killed some people's dog. It's become completely irrational. You ***** and moan about certain gameplay decisions with such intense furor that you have become belligerent.

The original was great, but it wasn't flawless. And that was a decade ago.

DX:HR has a lot of good things going for it. It may not be the perfect game for YOU, but overall, it seems like it will be a pretty good game to ME. When you play the game, and all the gameplay pieces come together, that's what is important, and you can see if the game is enjoyable or not. It might suck in the end, but give it a chance. Otherwise there are a ton of mods for the original DX you can play instead of repeating the same crap over and over here.

[Aceyalone7777]

And where you guys have you seen GoW style of gameplay?
I think you are clearly OVERreacting...

It's a clear first person shooter. Care to look at the image section? Yes there are 3-4 cover images, but in none of the is Adam fighting. All gunfight is taking place in first person. DE is and will be a FPS.

"All the hate, all the pessimism, all of it must have a source..."

[Blade_hunter]

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3035/00559e.jpg

[pha]

^

Une image vaut mille mots. :thumb:

[Ashpolt]

Uh, Ashpolt, why exactly do you think the game is intended for the Johnny Call of Duty?

Can you please number me the reasons?

As Kodaemon said, third person, instant kill takedowns and regenerating health are three very good reasons. I didn't say it was going all the way to being a Call of Duty game - if I thought it was, I wouldn't fear that further sequels would be worse, because we'd already be there. But these are aspects clearly designed to appease the more casual gamer, and though this is exactly the kind of game where EM have the opportunity to offer ways to please both types of player, they've made the decision not to.

This kind of thing has happened with countless series in the past - including Deus Ex, with Invisible War. If you can't see the warning signs, then I'm afraid you just haven't been following the game industry for long enough.

That's why i dont think the game is dumbed down at all. Takedowns or regenerating health aren't dumbing anything.

Takedowns make a clean kill a certainty, removing all player skill from the process. Regenerating health means you don't have to worry about resource management - and moreoever, has caused them to take out limb specific damage (or at least was surely part of the same decision). Also, it means there are no long term consequences to screwing up. How is that not dumbing down?

As for third person, though you didn't mention it: it allows you to see enemies without your enemies seeing you, thus making stealth pointlessly easy, and also allowing you to roughly line up shots from behind cover.

About cover system, i just think it makes more sense than the insane dodging and strafing that the first Deus Ex presented us.

Or do you really think that real modern combat works like that, with a soldier running and crouching holding an assault rifle with just one hand trying to kill you, like in the first DX?

You seem very confused here. What you're talking about in the second sentence is absolutely nothing to do with the cover system, it's an issue of enemy AI and animation. Yes, the enemy AI was terrible in Deus Ex, no one's denying it, and it should absolutely be fixed, but that has no bearing on the cover system, and particularly on the cover system switching to third person. They're unrelated issues, and I honestly don't see how you've drawn a link in your mind - unless you honestly believe that when we mention the cover system, we're talking about the enemies taking cover. Hint: we're not. We're talking about the player pressing a button to stick to cover and the camera jumping out to a third person viewpoint.

[WildcatPhoenix]

You'd think EM killed some people's dog. It's become completely irrational. You ***** and moan about certain gameplay decisions with such intense furor that you have become belligerent.

The original was great, but it wasn't flawless. And that was a decade ago.

DX:HR has a lot of good things going for it. It may not be the perfect game for YOU, but overall, it seems like it will be a pretty good game to ME. When you play the game, and all the gameplay pieces come together, that's what is important, and you can see if the game is enjoyable or not. It might suck in the end, but give it a chance. Otherwise there are a ton of mods for the original DX you can play instead of repeating the same crap over and over here.

Hey look, it's almost every tired, overused, reposted-ad-infinitum argument against criticism we've heard over the past three years, conveniently summarized in one post!

Props to you, Mr. Forum Noob.

(You forgot to mention that we all just "want Deus Ex with better graphics" though).

[Viktoria]

If we just agree to differ, we can all still be friends. :group_hug:

[Aceyalone7777]

^Seconded :)

[Rindill the Red]

I don't expect an SDK.

The engine is the one from Crystal Dynamics. None of their games ever got mod tools.

And the industry trends is: "Mods? but we don't get MONEY from those! Let's make our own crappy mods instead and sell them! We'll call this Downloadable Content."

Hey, if DLC was actually like mods then they might be worthwhile, but they're not.

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

Hey look, it's almost every tired, overused, reposted-ad-infinitum argument against criticism we've heard over the past three years, conveniently summarized in one post!

Props to you, Mr. Forum Noob.

(You forgot to mention that we all just "want Deus Ex with better graphics" though).

I'm glad you appreciate the irony of my tired, overused, reposted-ad-infinitum argument against your tired, overused, reposted-ad-infinitum argument against Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

I've been a lurker a long time, and apparently for good reason.

I don't think you want Deus Ex with better graphics. In fact, I don't think you'd be satisfied with anything.:rasp:

[Mindmute]

I don't think you want Deus Ex with better graphics. In fact, I don't think you'd be satisfied with anything.:rasp:

That one was missing actually, now you did nail all the tired arguements... :rolleyes:


People have been saying for nearly three years exactly what they'd be satisfied with.

[Blade_hunter]

^

Une image vaut mille mots. :thumb:

Oui comme quoi, on ne disait pas n'importe quoi ;)

That one was missing actually, now you did nail all the tired arguements... :rolleyes:


People have been saying for nearly three years exactly what they'd be satisfied with.

Yes something that goes along the lines of Deus Ex 1 with a lot of improvements.

[WildcatPhoenix]

I'm glad you appreciate the irony of my tired, overused, reposted-ad-infinitum argument against your tired, overused, reposted-ad-infinitum argument against Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

I've been a lurker a long time, and apparently for good reason.

I don't think you want Deus Ex with better graphics. In fact, I don't think you'd be satisfied with anything.:rasp:

You know what I'd be satisfied with? A game that didn't feel compelled to toss in every flavor-of-the-week gameplay component from every other successful franchise of the last 5 years.

On this forum we have stated, in painful and articulate detail, what type of game we were looking for. We've gone over the merits of each and every miniscule element, from debates about "what constitutes player immersion?" to "what are the challenges and benefits of making a prequel?" and on and on. We started with a belief that the game developers were listening and were excited to hear our feedback.

It turns out they only wanted to hear positive things about some very (in my opinion) poor decisions they made. When they realized we weren't happy with these decisions, they promptly began to ignore us.

Then again, that would suggest they were ever listening in the first place, wouldn't it? :hmm:

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

That one was missing actually, now you did nail all the tired arguements... :rolleyes:


People have been saying for three years exactly what they'd be satisfied with.

I think that's the problem. It's been said for three years and it is rarely positive or constructive, but rather negative and pessimistic. I'm not saying you can't complain or have an opinion. It just gets really tired reading it in almost every thread over and over. It's no wonder the devs don't post here; they'd be eaten alive, or end up in a pissing match because I'm sure they are Deus Ex fans too and its their work that is getting torn to shreds.

The only positive thing might be that expectations will be so low for the pessimists, that when you play the game (because I'm sure you will), that you might actually enjoy the game, warts and all. Unless you absolutely demand the second coming of JC Denton, in which case it can never live up to your nostalgic vision.

There are some decisions that EM has made that are not going to change, especially this far along. They are implementing their creative vision of what they wanted to make. That doesn't mean they shouldn't make some concessions to appease the general fanbase, but taking a dump in every thread isn't benefiting anyone, except for like-minded torchbearers.

[Mindmute]

I think that's the problem. It's been said for three years and it is rarely positive or constructive, but rather negative and pessimistic.

How well have you actually lurked? Ashpolt made a thread that recieved extra heavy moderation which was aptly named the constructive criticism thread.
Even far before that, most of the posts were constructive and people debated quite peacefully exactly what they'd like to see in place for the game. Check the forum archives when health regen first surfaced for another example of that.

No matter how critical people might be of these decisions, constructiveness was never lacking here.


That doesn't mean they shouldn't make some concessions to appease the general fanbase, but taking a dump in every thread isn't benefiting anyone, except for like-minded torchbearers.

That's exactly my point, only so far, the indication of a concession was a difficulty level that probably should've and would've been in the game anyway.


I'll agree with you that at this point, going about every thread just crying out the "evils" of DX:HR isn't helping anything (and one such user actually made it into my ignore list from this very thread), however being constructive didn't help either.
By and large the fanbase on this forum feels slightly abandoned and/or ignored, especially because the earliest comments from the team were how they were making this into a "game for the fans".

[Kodaemon]

They are implementing their creative vision of what they wanted to make.

Well that's the thing: they're not! There's nothing creative about putting health regen and sticky cover into a game. Health regen was creative for Halo, cover for GoW. But today, every game having these mechanics is just a simple "follow the leader" thing. They're not doing what they want, they're doing what they think will sell.

[subtlesnake]

On this forum we have stated, in painful and articulate detail, what type of game we were looking for. We've gone over the merits of each and every miniscule element, from debates about "what constitutes player immersion?" to "what are the challenges and benefits of making a prequel?" and on and on. We started with a belief that the game developers were listening and were excited to hear our feedback.

It turns out they only wanted to hear positive things about some very (in my opinion) poor decisions they made. When they realized we weren't happy with these decisions, they promptly began to ignore us.

But we're not part of the development process. We don't attend board meetings and talk about the result of playtests, and discuss the development costs of implementing various gameplay systems, and their likely effect on the projects' timetable. Because we have no visibility into the process, we can't possibly help develop the game, nor should EM look to us for straightforward solutions.

So yes, we're being ignored - because EM have to make these decisions for themselves, and there's no process by which Eidos can explain and debate with us, regarding the tradeoffs they want to make, and the gameplay goals they have (eg. the 'pillars') - at the beginning of the process. And at the point at which the game is ready to be shown, many of these decisions have been finalised, and it's too late for the community to have any real impact.

Besides which, who are 'we' anyway? A tiny portion of the game playing public on a niche message board. I think it would be pretty foolish for EM to design their game around the preferences of a handful of vocal posters.

The flip side is we don't have to be satisfied with the end result. Eidos has no right to demand that we be pleased with HR, nor do other forum users. We can vote with our wallet at the end of the day. Speaking for myself, I have no problem with people disliking the design decisions EM are making, only with the attitude that it's reasonable to expect EM to design their game around the opinions of forum members.

[Kodaemon]

Besides which, who are 'we' anyway? A tiny portion of the game playing public on a niche message board. I think it would be pretty foolish for EM to design their game around the preferences of a handful of vocal posters.

'We' are fans of Deus Ex. And If the game is not being made for us, why call it Deus Ex in the first place? Eidos seemed to understand this when they changed "Deus Ex: Clan Wars" into Project Snowblind.

Oh, and a 'niche board'? Uhh, this is the official board for the game. You will find even more criticism on actual niche DX boards. And general gaming boards? Sure you will find a lot of people there who like the game. Note though that hey will be saying "OMG this looks almost like Mass Effect!" or "Hey this is cool, reminds me of Metal Gear Solid!"

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

You know what I'd be satisfied with? A game that didn't feel compelled to toss in every flavor-of-the-week gameplay component from every other successful franchise of the last 5 years.

On this forum we have stated, in painful and articulate detail, what type of game we were looking for. We've gone over the merits of each and every miniscule element, from debates about "what constitutes player immersion?" to "what are the challenges and benefits of making a prequel?" and on and on. We started with a belief that the game developers were listening and were excited to hear our feedback.

It turns out they only wanted to hear positive things about some very (in my opinion) poor decisions they made. When they realized we weren't happy with these decisions, they promptly began to ignore us.

Then again, that would suggest they were ever listening in the first place, wouldn't it? :hmm:

The developer feedback and interaction has been piss poor, no doubt. The community was hoping for greater input, but didn't get that. I understand that is the main catalyst for disparaging the design decisions that aren't agreed with. Because you think of what could have been.

There is risk when changing the formula, but there is risk when keeping it the same from a decade ago as well. I like many aspects about DX:HR, and I'm ambivalent regarding some things. I'm optimistic though that these new "features" will turn out ok or at least not detract from the overall enjoyment of the game, especially where some aspects that we know seems very positive to me.

[Blade_hunter]

'We' are fans of Deus Ex. And If the game is not being made for us, why call it Deus Ex in the first place? Eidos seemed to understand this when they changed "Deus Ex: Clan Wars" into Project Snowblind.

They seemed, I think this understanding didn't stood any further :hmm:

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

How well have you actually lurked? Ashpolt made a thread that recieved extra heavy moderation which was aptly named the constructive criticism thread.
Even far before that, most of the posts were constructive and people debated quite peacefully exactly what they'd like to see in place for the game. Check the forum archives when health regen first surfaced for another example of that.

No matter how critical people might be of these decisions, constructiveness was never lacking here.



That's exactly my point, only so far, the indication of a concession was a difficulty level that probably should've and would've been in the game anyway.


I'll agree with you that at this point, going about every thread just crying out the "evils" of DX:HR isn't helping anything (and one such user actually made it into my ignore list from this very thread), however being constructive didn't help either.
By and large the fanbase on this forum feels slightly abandoned and/or ignored, especially because the earliest comments from the team were how they were making this into a "game for the fans".

I've read the constructive criticism thread. I'm not referring to that thread. The problem I'm talking about was the cause for needing such a thread in the first place. Take this thread. It was a thread about the possible continuation of the franchise and it turned into something negative very quickly.

I don't mean to paint all the criticism as bad or unconstructive. There's certainly well thought-out arguments and alternative suggestions here. I'm merely sick of reading all the negative stuff.

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

Well that's the thing: they're not! There's nothing creative about putting health regen and sticky cover into a game. Health regen was creative for Halo, cover for GoW. But today, every game having these mechanics is just a simple "follow the leader" thing. They're not doing what they want, they're doing what they think will sell.

It is your opinion that these foreign gameplay mechanics are bad, and that's ok. I actually think introducing cover is a great idea. Health Regen isn't that extreme, and there are plenty of debates over health kit spawn as being equally as bad. Its different, but not too different since it was available in the original via an aug (and yes, I realize that having it as an aug would probably satisfy most detractors).

These things are new to the series, and might result in a good mix with the core DX mechanics. It might not, but we'll see.

It's rather presumptive of you to say they are only doing these things because they think it will sell. Don't you think it is possible they might actually like these mechanics from other games they enjoy? The original DX is a blend of various genres and gameplay mechanics. Why can't they at least attempt to mix in some more modern features? They are making a new game, not recreating the original.

[Dead-Eye]

10 years after I'm over it, they are finally recognizing my favoritest game of all time.

This article feels like it was written after the C.E.O of Square played Deus Ex and was all like "Damn, why didn't I think of that."

It's funny, I challenged a friend of mine to play Deus Ex and he said he would only play it if I played Final Fantasy 3(US). So right now I'm playing Final Fantasy 6.

Soon they will make a hybrid game:
FINAL FANTASY EX!
or
FINAL DEUS!
or
FANTASY EX!
or
DXFF

[Kodaemon]

As far as Final Fantasy goes, that's also my favourite part.

Don't you think it is possible they might actually like these mechanics from other games they enjoy?

No. I can't see it as anything other than a checklist of "are we next-gen enough for this grown-up industry?"

[Facebyface]

It is your opinion that these foreign gameplay mechanics are bad, and that's ok. I actually think introducing cover is a great idea. Health Regen isn't that extreme, and there are plenty of debates over health kit spawn as being equally as bad. Its different, but not too different since it was available in the original via an aug (and yes, I realize that having it as an aug would probably satisfy most detractors).

These things are new to the series, and might result in a good mix with the core DX mechanics. It might not, but we'll see.

It's rather presumptive of you to say they are only doing these things because they think it will sell. Don't you think it is possible they might actually like these mechanics from other games they enjoy? The original DX is a blend of various genres and gameplay mechanics. Why can't they at least attempt to mix in some more modern features? They are making a new game, not recreating the original.

As an add on to that, let me just say that somethings things are popular because they're good and they work. Saying it's "Just to appeal to the masses" is extremely naive. People may keep into a trend for the wrong reasons, but usually it starts with good intent. Maybe EM will do something revolutionary with the cover system and/or regenerating health. You'll deny that all you can at the moment, but we never truly know. Remember, RE4 was just going to be Resident Evil again until one genius decided to revamp it over and create one of the most innovative games of the past decade. Things can change for the better and saying something's bad because it's mass market appeal really just makes me laugh every time, so as you can see I chuckle a lot around here :D

[[FGS]Shadowrunner]

Pretty arrogant PR announcement I would say,
DX2 was pretty much a failure to equal the original.
DX3 is not even at the demo stage publicly.
The DX1 community is still in existence in both single player editing and multiplayer editing.

It's going to be a lot of custard pie in their faces if DX1 is better than DX3.
There are so few prequels or sequels that are better than the originals,
I guess DX3 must be THAT good for them to sound so arrogant before it's released.

Well the only way they are going to keep my interest for TEN years is:

1. Make a game as good as DX1.
2. Release the SDK.
3. Make a MP version/patch

[Blade_hunter]

No. I can't see it as anything other than a checklist of "are we next-gen enough for this grown-up industry?"

While I'm liking some systems made in new games, I don't like everything.

[subtlesnake]

'We' are fans of Deus Ex. And If the game is not being made for us, why call it Deus Ex in the first place? Eidos seemed to understand this when they changed "Deus Ex: Clan Wars" into Project Snowblind.
And every fan has a different set of expectations as to what a Deus Ex sequel can and should be. By all accounts, EM are fans of Deus Ex too. Whether HR is successful depends on how well it appeals to every type of Deus Ex fan: the hundreds of thousands that bought the original, not just a particularly small subset of vocal fans.

Oh, and a 'niche board'? Uhh, this is the official board for the game. You will find even more criticism on actual niche DX boards. And general gaming boards? Sure you will find a lot of people there who like the game. Note though that hey will be saying "OMG this looks almost like Mass Effect!" or "Hey this is cool, reminds me of Metal Gear Solid!"
It's still only a tiny proportion of the total 'fanbase' that gather here.

[spyhopping]

Don't feel like thinking too much on this yet, but it's mostly optimistic... even if the 10 year thing is a bit scary. If HR does do well, hopefully it will be praised for the things we loved about the original, and we will see more of what we like from there.

[Kodaemon]

Again, it's not innovation that's being criticised. It's the incorporation certain elements just because everyone else is doing it. For example, DX didn't have social augs. But no one's criticising HR for having them, are we?

[spyhopping]

Not sure if you are replying to me or not, but when I say "things we loved about the original" I was just being a little lazy. I was thinking of core things such as complex branching plot, rich narrative, intelligent gameplay and so on.

[subtlesnake]

Again, it's not innovation that's being criticised. It's the incorporation certain elements just because everyone else is doing it. For example, DX didn't have social augs. But no one's criticising HR for having them, are we?
Well how do you tell the difference between including something simply because other games include that thing, and including something because you believe it's the best solution? In both cases you have a feature shared with other (modern) games.

[Irate Iguana]

Why can't they at least attempt to mix in some more modern features? They are making a new game, not recreating the original.

Again with the ****ty arguments. Nobody is flat-out against introducing new or modern features. What people are against is introducing features that don't actually make things better or add something the series lacked.

The regenerating health has, so far, killed resource management and locational damage. Yes, the original system was flawed. There were a ton of ideas on the forum on how to actually improve upon that and still keep the resource management and locational damage alive.

The cover system has influenced the stealth gameplay and level design and it could be argued the shooting aspect. Stealth players now get a handy dandy little out-of-body spy camera to scout out areas without any worry of being detected. Remember the times where this would have made DX stealth easier (especially with better AI)?
The levels have been designed to accommodate waist-high and taller cover. They even confirmed this in an interview. Not only that, but because of the third person camera they would have had to ensure that the levels themselves can handle the floating camera which necessitates larger open spaces.
The combat aspect is a bit iffy, but mostly because in DX the AI was pretty sucky. In order to deal with a player in cover the AI in this has got the be way smarter. Most games with cover fail horribly at this.

The take-downs have killed melee combat and turned multiple guards in proximity into single guards. We know that there are no melee weapons. All manual wet-work will be done with the blades. These are guaranteed to succeed. They could also be guaranteed in DX, but you'd need aim and a few skill-points.
Normally a few guards in proximity are a big challenge to a stealth player. We have seen in the demo that it is easy for Adam to take on two guards. Presumably this will extend to a few more than that. These are guaranteed to succeed. It diminishes the problem of dealing with multiple guards.

[Kodaemon]

Not sure if you are replying to me or not

I wasn't :)

[[FGS]Shadowrunner]

What worries me is that if SE and EM do this, over the next ten years there will be plenty more like DX2, made by people who completely misunderstand DX1...

[Facebyface]

Shadowrunner;1513461']What worries me is that if SE and EM do this, over the next ten years there will be plenty more like DX2, made by people who completely misunderstand DX1...

Uhh... Should I tell him or should one of you tell him?

[ninjablade]

umm shadowrunner to be frank deus ex is over if they f this one up wich is starting to look very much so plus we all HATE 3RD PERSON IN A FPS GAME ... what the fans desire is 100% pure fps not some dirt thrown into their soup called 3rd person ... fps ftw!!! and anybody against this can eat a sock oh btw sdk is a MUST where gona create our own deus ex out of dxhr , ruhaaaa!!,peace yall love ya

[Mindmute]

umm shadowrunner to be frank deus ex is over if they f this one up wich is starting to look very much so plus we all HATE 3RD PERSON IN A FPS GAME ... what the fans desire is 100% pure fps not some dirt thrown into their soup called 3rd person ... fps ftw!!! and anybody against this can eat a sock oh btw sdk is a MUST where gona create our own deus ex out of dxhr , ruhaaaa!!,peace yall love ya

What's the influx of new members with an horrendous writing style? Why am I not even convinced it isn't the same member with a different name, considering that not just the text, but also the attitude and manneirisms are similar?


Edit: Yeah, nevermind, another thread has shown it *is* the same member with a different name for some reason...

[ninjablade]

shhh dont tell them or else ill get banned again .wohooo.rofl , thaks to you yelling around about my peneye facepalm ...peney facepalm ftw!!

ps it seems its to violent for you kiddies so the administrator said ,double facepalm

[Mindmute]

shhh dont tell them or else ill get banned again .wohooo.rofl , thaks to you yelling around about my peneye facepalm ...peney facepalm ftw!!

ps it seems its to violent for you kiddies so the administrator said ,double facepalm

Yelling out against what? Whatever it was I didn't even get to see it, you've been on my ignore list for the better part of the day, so I couldn't read squat of what you posted.
And that's where you're going again :rolleyes:

[ninjablade]

so my other account got banned for a week ,noobs.sheesh

[ninjablade]

common lets all be ADULTS here atleast i hope im the only young one here i hope youl got some brains left mr mindmute stop the childish immature behaviour i kindly ask this of you lets all be friends and not make this discussion into a childish verbal exchange shall we,lets move on with the topic already

[AlexOfSpades]

As Kodaemon said, third person, instant kill takedowns and regenerating health are three very good reasons. I didn't say it was going all the way to being a Call of Duty game - if I thought it was, I wouldn't fear that further sequels would be worse, because we'd already be there. But these are aspects clearly designed to appease the more casual gamer, and though this is exactly the kind of game where EM have the opportunity to offer ways to please both types of player, they've made the decision not to.

Appealing to the casual gamer? As i stated, Bloodlines was far from being casual.


This kind of thing has happened with countless series in the past - including Deus Ex, with Invisible War. If you can't see the warning signs, then I'm afraid you just haven't been following the game industry for long enough.

If Invisible War was made more "casual", then it would be more popular. Deus Ex 1 is way more popular, and also way more complex. IW is not casual. Its poorly done.


Takedowns make a clean kill a certainty, removing all player skill from the process. Regenerating health means you don't have to worry about resource management - and moreoever, has caused them to take out limb specific damage (or at least was surely part of the same decision). Also, it means there are no long term consequences to screwing up. How is that not dumbing down?

Well, in my little humble opinion, having plenty of medbots and dozens of medkits up your sleeve renders you immortal the same way the regenerating health does.

I mean, you could not only blast your way inside already (one of the ways to play DX was Rambo way), you could do it with plenty of Medkits in your toolbelt, "drinking" them while in fight to render you invincible. And we had the regen aug, which could make a repair bot indirectly recover your entire health. There was no long term consequences for screwing up, unless your IQ is lower than 70.

But i'm not fighting to show you how "cool" regen is. I'm just trying to show you, that it's not the end of the world. In the actual practice, there wont be much of a difference. Dont worry. Thats my point, you see.


As for third person, though you didn't mention it: it allows you to see enemies without your enemies seeing you, thus making stealth pointlessly easy, and also allowing you to roughly line up shots from behind cover.

Yup, i agree. I even had a discussion with someone around Thief 4 forums because of that, trying to protect FPS over TPS. Using the camera Is an exploit, and it will indeed render the game easier. ):~



You seem very confused here. What you're talking about in the second sentence is absolutely nothing to do with the cover system, it's an issue of enemy AI and animation. Yes, the enemy AI was terrible in Deus Ex, no one's denying it, and it should absolutely be fixed, but that has no bearing on the cover system, and particularly on the cover system switching to third person. They're unrelated issues, and I honestly don't see how you've drawn a link in your mind - unless you honestly believe that when we mention the cover system, we're talking about the enemies taking cover. Hint: we're not. We're talking about the player pressing a button to stick to cover and the camera jumping out to a third person viewpoint.

I'm sorry if i didnt phrased well enough. My point is, cover system may be bad, or GoW rip-off, but its better than we used to have in the previous games. (:~

[ninjablade]

you woldve loved the peneye facepalm they all do once they see it their immediately bedazzled ,xD

[ninjablade]

yeh well would you not prefer more of a killzone 3 or mirrors edge or just for the sakes of good fps use dark athenas fps animations including combat system melee as guns and his blades , how satisfied would it make you to be able to stab your enemy all in fps from behind all while nobody notices while you drag them off with invisiblity, how bout em apples,peace

[spyhopping]

Hate to repeat myself, but in the words of JC- maybe you should try getting a job!

[ninjablade]

or brake his neck all with accourding animations theres non of it its all prescripted 3rd person takedown moves i hope your happy with it cause you definitely seem to be warming up that kind of thought , (gets goosebumps) i never expected gamers to accept being forcefeed horsedung,xD

[ninjablade]

who you mean bro i hope not me..xD

[super...]

making money is for chumps

dont even get me started on these people super chumps who do stuff and don't make any money, they are such chumps.

god i cant believe this company wants to continue to do something if it works for them.

I ate a burger the other day, it was so delicious. i'm never going to eat another burger because i don't want to beat a deadhorse. or maybe that next burger would be worse then the first one i ever ate, that would be terrible! even if it was as good as the first burger would i be able to tell? experiencing something for the first time is fairly special, i'm not sure i want to possibly ruin that perfect memory of eating a burger by eating another burger.

[ninjablade]

dude but this burger is only gona be viewed thru you watching another person from the outside view of him eating it so you wont get disapointed thats what we call 3rd person...xD

[Kodaemon]

This was actually a good one.

[ninjablade]

thank you ..xD

[Ninjerk]

I had this great hamburger one time, years ago. It was delicious. It had a half pound all-beef patty, a slice of sharp cheddar cheese, a crisp piece of lettuce, a tomato slice (that I wasn't too fond of), and an onion slice (that should have been cooked in some butter instead of just thrown on there). It was encased in BBQ sauce and a sesame seed bun and I have been a fan of that burger ever since.

I think I want to start making burgers like it and selling them, but I think it could be improved for modern food eaters. After all, people's taste buds have really grown up.

Fish heads are all the rage these days so I'll cut the 1/2 pound patty down to a 1/4 pound patty and put the fish head next to it.

BBQ is kind of an old idea (grown up taste buds remember) and I think gravy is the next logical step in burgers. Did you just ask why? I must have misheard you, anyways, next ingredient!

I like orange slices better than tomato slices so I'll put one on there instead, and cook the onion in butter this time.

On second thought, let's take the rest of the beef patty out and put some pulled pork in there.

It's still a burger because it's in a bun, and I think all burger fans will really like it. Remember, kids, you can't criticize it until you've tried it!

EDIT: In before MI tells us to get back on topic and not talking about burgers. Unless they're vegetarian burgers. :P

[Pinky_Powers]

As long as they give EM the freedom, time and money to make the games the way they want, I'm all for Squeenix looking at Deus Ex as a cashcow... it'll just mean more great games for us.

But if they start putting the screws to EM, and demanding quick, cheap sequels, we're doomed... utterly doomed.

[Kodaemon]

Don't forget to put some of the ingredients outside of the bun, to showcase how cool they are.

[ninjablade]

well pinky sorry to brake it to you but ummm... they will be demanding quick cheap sequels ...ever heard of devil may cry well then i betcha youve heard of the 5th part where dante is an anorexic kid now .yeah thats all about the money makin because everybody wants a piece of it not interested in ignorant decisions etc no just money thats all f the fanbase if theres so many brainless zombies out there that love eating dirt instead of a full cooked meal.xD,my 2 cents

[ninjablade]

+1 for kodaemon couldnt have said it any better..xD

[ninjablade]

why not put the patty outside the bun or whatnot pigmeat youve meant and sell the bun and the meat seperate ,then see how happy the customers gona be.xD

[Kodaemon]

I'll also mention Yakuza: Of The End. The first few games were sort of like a mix between a GTA and Shenmue. This one? It's about a zombie apocalypse. Yeah.

[Pinky_Powers]

I had a Spicy Southwest double from Sonic's today. It was heavenly.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:dt3JeqtYtCih1M:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/kaitis/sidepic.jpg&t=1

[Blade_hunter]

Appealing to the casual gamer? As i stated, Bloodlines was far from being casual.

Stop with your bloodlines blablating which have no sense and that's even why people doesn't jump on it
From Eurogamer:

On the use of said spectacular third-person takedowns...

"What we decided for this game was that we had to make it spectacular - we needed some reward. We needed, as soon as you used an augmentation, to pull the camera out into the third-person and let the player see what Jensen is able to do. And, to be honest with you, it's something that might reach a larger audience too - through being spectacular and giving reward it's a little less 'hardcore gamer'."

This was from David Anfossi

I'm sorry if i didnt phrased well enough. My point is, cover system may be bad, or GoW rip-off, but its better than we used to have in the previous games. (:~

In the previous games ? in DX 1 we had leaning and it worked fine.

[Irate Iguana]

You people are making me hungry.

EDIT: Also, I'm betting Coyotegrey is sitting behind his PC, downing a bottle of whiskey and wondering where it all went wrong with this thread. Poor guy still has 5 months of this to go.

[Ashpolt]

Appealing to the casual gamer? As i stated, Bloodlines was far from being casual.

In Bloodlines, the health regen was slow enough to be basically useless. It would take several minutes to regenerate your health fully. You had to rely on blood packs to heal yourself in any useful manner.

Third person in Bloodlines was a) utterly terrible, and b) used a lot less than in DXHR - i.e. it was only for melee weapons and bloodsucking, there was no third person cover system.

Besides, your point misses some important factors: firstly, Bloodlines could've been a lot better - and particularly, if I were to be given the task of improving it, getting rid of the third person bits would've been one of the first things to go. Secondly, Bloodlines was not a sequel to Deus Ex. Yes, many people (myself included) say it's the closest thing we've got to a sequel to Deus Ex, but the fact is it didn't use the IP, so gets a lot more leeway. Finally, while Bloodlines may have had these "casual" aspects (at least with regards to regenerating health - its use of third person, while terrible, didn't actually do anything to make the game simpler) it balanced them out by having other areas of the game which were more complex than DX - particularly, there was a far greater emphasis on character building, and a lot more statistics defining your character. With DXHR we've seen a lot of "take," but very little (if any) "give."

If Invisible War was made more "casual", then it would be more popular. Deus Ex 1 is way more popular, and also way more complex. IW is not casual.

Logical fallacy. A lean towards the casual side doesn't necessarily equal more popularity - but developers, at least nowadays, seem to think so. You've also got to bear in mind that Invisible War was release back in 2003. The gaming industry was vastly different back then than it is now.

Also, you don't seem to understand degrees. "More casual" is not the same thing as "casual."

Well, in my little humble opinion, having plenty of medbots and dozens of medkits up your sleeve renders you immortal the same way the regenerating health does.

I mean, you could not only blast your way inside already (one of the ways to play DX was Rambo way), you could do it with plenty of Medkits in your toolbelt, "drinking" them while in fight to render you invincible. And we had the regen aug, which could make a repair bot indirectly recover your entire health. There was no long term consequences for screwing up, unless your IQ is lower than 70.

....Which is why several of us have proposed systems on here which could combine the best of both worlds: the resource management of medkits, without being able to spam them to instantly heal. Ever played Left 4 Dead? You couldn't spam health kits in that because they took some time to apply.

No one's saying that the medkit system in Deus Ex was perfect, but you can fix it without chucking it out entirely.

And you're attacking a straw man: just because x is bad, doesn't mean the other choice, y, must necessarily be good.

I'm sorry if i didnt phrased well enough. My point is, cover system may be bad, or GoW rip-off, but its better than we used to have in the previous games. (:~

....But the point you mentioned in your last post, that of guards running around with their assault rifles shooting at you from right angles, is nothing to do with the cover system. Please try and understand this. That particular problem is not solved at all with the cover system implemented in DXHR, because it is an AI problem. It may be solved, but it'll be solved because the AI is better, not because a third person cover system has been implemented. I don't know how much clearer I can explain this.

And whether this new system is better than the old is entirely subjective: I'd much rather have standard first person crouch and lean keys, I don't need to be stuck to a piece of cover with a floating camera. Even if we could all agree that the old system sucked though (for reasons unrelated to guard AI...:rolleyes:) again, just because one system's (arguably) bad doesn't make another one good. They could easily have gone for something like Killzone 2 or Red Orchestra (IIRC) have used, where you've got "cling to" cover but kept in first person.

[AlexOfSpades]

Stop with your bloodlines blablating which have no sense

Doesnt make sense? Well okay, its just a good game with all the "dumbed down" features mentioned so far - without being casual at all. Sorry for my nonsense "blablating". Guess i'll just shut up then.


About David Anfossi, i'm not questioning the point Why they created that. I'm trying to show that it can be a good game even with those features. I'm such an idiot to think that.

Edit ~

Ashpolt, lets go through all of this again.

I'm not saying that Bloodlines is perfect. I'm just mentioning it, as stated above before this edit, that its an example of how a game can actually be good with those features. Would be better without'em? No doubt. But it managed to be great like that, at least in my silly eyes.

You, and WildcatPhoenix, and any other, try to understand that i'm not offending your mother. Nope. Actually i'm very close to agreeing with you guys.

I'm just trying to show that it is possible to believe that the game can be good, and not be so negative all the times making everyone hate you, with those features. Really. Deus Ex is not about takedowns or cover. Calm down, chill. Do you smoke? I recommend a Gudang. The cinnamon one. Relax, bro.

About the AI problem and cover - okay. Heh, i understood perfectly your point that its fault of the AI. Quake 4 has no cover system and the enemies manage to protect themselves aswell. Dont worry, no need to be "more clearer". You're not dealing with a stupid person - even if i may pretend to be sometimes. Believe it or not.

[Coyotegrey]

You people are making me hungry.

EDIT: Also, I'm betting Coyotegrey is sitting behind his PC, downing a bottle of whiskey and wondering where it all went wrong with this thread. Poor guy still has 5 months of this to go.

haha. Labatt and Heineken, actually.

I've been in meetings all day, so I've been able to dive in sporadically. All I'll say is I can't WAIT for everyone to play the game. :)

[Tecman]

haha. Labatt and Heineken, actually.

Makes me think of a certain Lynch flick. :)

[Blade_hunter]

Doesnt make sense? Well okay, its just a good game with all the "dumbed down" features mentioned so far - without being casual at all. Sorry for my nonsense "blablating". Guess i'll just shut up then.


About David Anfossi, i'm not questioning the point Why they created that. I'm trying to show that it can be a good game even with those features. I'm such an idiot to think that.

Dude you should look forward, and I see you're thinking it's like bloodlines but it's not.
The stealth kills required stealth and being behind the enemy to be performed, while I don't like their stealth kills; I think it's better than the takedowns we have in DX HR and I can explain the reasons if you want ...
As for regenerating health same deal, the DX HR RH isn't the same as bloodlines as far as I know, and I personally prefer a system in the vein of FC 2 / pariah so an hybrid between health packs and regenerating health.

[Irate Iguana]

haha. Labatt and Heineken, actually.

Odd combo.

Any chance for a ballpark figure on new info?

[Kodaemon]

Makes me think of a certain Lynch flick. :)

Heineken!? **** that ****! Pabst Blue Ribbon! :lol:

[Tecman]

Heineken!? **** that ****! Pabst Blue Ribbon! :lol:

You really can't quote Frank well on these boards since most of his lines would end up being **** **** **** and **** . :D

[nipponichise]

im back tada!!!hehe just like 3rd persons gona stay but well get it with sdk boys so just wait till we get our grabby hands on the delicious sdk..xD

ps. and flush down all the 3rd person garbage and cinematics down the toilet where it belongs,word, id bed truthtalkin like free willy ..xD

[Blade_hunter]

Give me some heineken, or better give me vodka :nut:

[nipponichise]

+1 for ninjablade and breakdown they rock!!

[Romeo]

im back tada!!!hehe just like 3rd persons gona stay but well get it with sdk boys so just wait till we get our grabby hands on the delicious sdk..xD

ps. and flush down all the 3rd person garbage and cinematics down the toilet where it belongs,word, id bed truthtalkin like free willy ..xD
Feel free. I timed the last one. It takes me a total of eight seconds to delete you. Just watch!

[ricky68]

whats this immature behaviour off this romeo why do you simply ban members that just want to have a good grown up talk with forum members and fans alike feeling the same way i dun suppose you know what the kid feels like...-,-´

[Ashpolt]

I'm not saying that Bloodlines is perfect. I'm just mentioning it, as stated above before this edit, that its an example of how a game can actually be good with those features. Would be better without'em? No doubt. But it managed to be great like that, at least in my silly eyes.

And I'm not saying that DXHR is going to be a terrible game because it uses those features. I'm just saying it's not going to be as good a game as it could be. If you're willing to settle for "good enough" then good for you - but I'm not. Not when it comes to a Deus Ex game, and especially not with a team who are being given enough time and budget that they could well please (nearly) everyone if they wanted to.

[ricky68]

well ashpolt let me rehearse your most awesome statement : theres people that like eating dirt but i refuse to eat dirt i want a full course meal :

well we all want the full gourmet meal but it looks like its up to the homecookers to get the food right if you catch my drift...xD

[IOOI]

Indeed. Blizzard has released SCII after 12 years and will undoubtedly release DIII somewhere in the next few years. Valve has made HL2 after 6 years and will probably release Episode 3 before the heatdeath of the universe. These companies generally don't announce that they are planning on sticking by a franchise for a while to make them profit. They just do.

Actually I don't mind this, because it lowers my expectations on seeing, in the next ten years, a DX game made by EM that follows the Design philosophy behind the first one.
The lower my expectations are, the less disappointed I'll become.

Wider array of weapons, well it exists in shooters as well as role playing games, but I ask for weapons, but also for tools, and means to use elements in different ways.
Like having a crowbar and using it to open some doors, not only for blowing stuff up.
I always ask for this; more interactivity.

This! :thumb:

For instance, if interaction with doors (with mechanical and electronic locks) was similar to what we see in SWAT 4 (context sensitive actions) - and with a proper FP cover (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1403532) - it would've been an improvement regarding DX's design philosophy.

Yes, and there's no reason why a game featuring some of these mechanics, can't offer the kind of choice and consequence - the kind of gameplay and narrative freedom, that features in FPS hybrids like Deus Ex or Bloodlines, or System Shock. And to achieve such a thing, in itself would be a massive accomplishment, irrespective of whether the end result is completely 'true' to Deus Ex.

It's all about maintaining the experience and this experience has a model, DX.
For those who liked specific things in DX, like melee combat for instance, the experience becomes diluted/changed or even non-existent.

DX was trying to achieve much more than what I've seen in HR so far.

Just taking into account the 4 pillars (combat, stealth, social and hacking), EM apparently got 1.5 of them right (social and hacking - the later joining lockpicking and hacking into one, which is bad compared with what we had before).

But we're not part of the development process. We don't attend board meetings and talk about the result of playtests, and discuss the development costs of implementing various gameplay systems, and their likely effect on the projects' timetable. Because we have no visibility into the process, we can't possibly help develop the game, nor should EM look to us for straightforward solutions.

I so hope EM drops the "fan" word and substitute it with "consumer" when communicating with the public. It would be so much more appropriate.

EM needs to grow up. :rolleyes:

The original DX is a blend of various genres and gameplay mechanics. Why can't they at least attempt to mix in some more modern features? They are making a new game, not recreating the original.

There are other games that they could have taken into account. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1492634) Implementing some of the mechanics from these games would deliver something closer to DX and improve things.

[BigBoss]

yuck.......I'm only ever interested in a series for a trilogy at the max. Because this is a prequel, and it is kind of a restart for the series, i'll count this as the first, but they only have me for 2 more at the most. Games like mass effect, after this next one i'm done, same goes with resistance, fable, halo, assassis creed, ect.

[ricky68]

assassis creed ..xD ..nice...why not call it asscreed ..xD

[Dead-Eye]

As long as they give EM the freedom, time and money to make the games the way they want, I'm all for Squeenix looking at Deus Ex as a cashcow... it'll just mean more great games for us.

But if they start putting the screws to EM, and demanding quick, cheap sequels, we're doomed... utterly doomed.

NO! Square should make a sequel. It should be a more RPG intensive version of Deus Ex, with a bunch more Japanese style characters and a party system...

They should call it Final Fantasy 18 (With a Camo party member JC Denton).

[ricky68]

wohoo i hope they added partys in the current one their workin on but partys as in partys not groups of companions,yeah like alcohol , striping nude chicks etc and all the shabang ...xD could it be that you referenced to final fantasy im starting to think you meant final fantasy omg not again the fantasy references btw yeah with all the 3rd person fogging going around thanks to eidos montreal its hard to think about possible mods to make at the moment the rage is just to much ,-,-´

[AlexOfSpades]

And I'm not saying that DXHR is going to be a terrible game because it uses those features. I'm just saying it's not going to be as good a game as it could be. If you're willing to settle for "good enough" then good for you - but I'm not. Not when it comes to a Deus Ex game, and especially not with a team who are being given enough time and budget that they could well please (nearly) everyone if they wanted to.

How beautiful and noble your fight for a brighter future is.

Now grab a beer and join us.

:D

After all, its their game, not ours. The forum doesnt mean we're the new CEO over EM.

[ricky68]

oh how i wish we was just think about the outcome everybody would be happy but the true reality is a bit different where real fans gotta devote their own sweat and tears in order to get the game they want in the order it should have been made from the getgo even thou they already pay for a "complete" product...-,-´

ps . yes im talkin about the sdk funny the word never gets old ...xD

[Ashpolt]

*sigh*

After all, its their game, not ours. The forum doesnt mean we're the new CEO over EM.

No, and I never said it did. I'm not saying that EM have to implement every change we've suggested. I'm just saying that because they haven't implemented those changes (any of them) they have no right to be upset that we're not happy about the game. We* - their customers - have told them what we want, they have failed to deliver it, thus we're well within our rights to complain.

*And by "we" I of course don't mean every single person who might buy DXHR, I just mean that particular subset that are not happy with the decisions EM have taken - and contrary to what might be said here, that's more than just people on this forum.

Pre-empting the obvious response, because I've had this discussion more times than I care to count: They could easily have given "us" what we wanted while still appealing to Johnny Call of Duty by making third person and regen health optional. That's all any of us have ever asked for, not for them to be removed entirely. Yes, it would mean extra work, but tough - EM are getting paid to do this, they should do it right.

...And I'm out of this discussion, because it's getting more circular than a circle. That's in orbit.

[AlexOfSpades]

Well, against optional features, i just have no arguments.

Where's my beer?

[super...]

oh how i wish we was just think about the outcome everybody would be happy but the true reality is a bit different where real fans gotta devote their own sweat and tears in order to get the game they want in the order it should have been made from the getgo even thou they already pay for a "complete" product...-,-´

ps . yes im talkin about the sdk funny the word never gets old ...xD


You know what a real fan would do? a real fan would stop posting on message boards, educate himself and make his own game. or perhaps spend years in obscurity working hard to build a reputation and then take on the job of actually developing a new deus ex game branded game.

thats what real fans do!

[sexus]

here one on me bro we all did quite a job on the forums the last couple of days respekt.peace

[sexus]

btw super.... yeah i know that but where to mod without the sdk im waiting impatiently dont think im just rantin this is serious as a heartattack to me i hope you get me

[AlexOfSpades]

It is forbidden to double post, i warned you.

:S

Dont disappoint me, bro

[sexus]

ok im countin on your words ive had enough with the banning plus i already appologized for the pen eye ok,-,-´

dont make me open up quadrillion new accounts guys im not into trollin ok so dont make me please,thank you

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

Jeepers. It's Friday! Let's be happy and positive!

Jesus was crucified on a Friday...

[BigBoss]

Jesus was crucified on a Friday...

lol for so many reasons.....

[Pinky_Powers]

Heineken!? **** that ****! Pabst Blue Ribbon! :lol:

Heineken is lovely. :)

I splurged yesterday and picked up a truly phenomenal brew....

http://blogs.eveningsun.com/troublebrewing/westm.jpg

Oh dear god was it wonderful!

[Bloodwolf806]

Let me make sure I've got this straight:

Deus Ex comes out. It is hailed as one of the best games of all time. Then comes the lackluster sequel. Finally, over 10 years later we get a game that shows it is going to carry on the legacy of the original Deus Ex. Previews for the title are overwhelmingly positive, and for the first time the greater gaming public is interested in a Deus Ex game...Then Square Enix says that if people like what is being called the "most refreshing open-eneded RPGs in years", then they will continue to make such astounding games...And this is...bad? Did I miss something?

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

Let me make sure I've got this straight:

Deus Ex comes out. It is hailed as one of the best games of all time. Then comes the lackluster sequel. Finally, over 10 years later we get a game that shows it is going to carry on the legacy of the original Deus Ex. Previews for the title are overwhelmingly positive, and for the first time the greater gaming public is interested in a Deus Ex game...Then Square Enix says that if people like what is being called the "most refreshing open-eneded RPGs in years", then they will continue to make such astounding games...And this is...bad? Did I miss something?

Many others have used that same argument for many different franchises, including Call of Duty, Guitar Hero, various EA sports titles, etc.

[super...]

bloodwolf

what your missing is that this place is nothing but trolls

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

bloodwolf

what your missing is that this place is nothing but trolls

Oh yes, label all dissenters as trolls.

It's not as if their complaints have any merit or basis in the history videogame industry. :rolleyes:

[Pinky_Powers]

Oh yes, label all dissenters as trolls.

It's not as if their complaints have any merit or basis in the history videogame industry. :rolleyes:

Now now... he said there was "nothing but" trolls here. So it's not just detractors, we're all trolls apparently. :eek:

:)

[FrankCSIS]

This here land, sir, is the valley of trolls. We own this plantation. You pale-flesh fool would do best to keep on walking, and let the green ones do the talking.

[OwlSolar]

Get the hell off my bridge. I won't stand for your ridiculous trip-trapping.

[sexus]

succesfull troll is succesful...XD

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3WR0Ht8c2e4/SkDqIx0iS1I/AAAAAAAAADE/P-ECMxzxLlg/s320/successful_troll.jpg

[OwlSolar]

This is the second time someone has called me that.

[sexus]

....xD... always wanted to use that one epic!!!

[super...]

i meant it when i said nothing but trolls that includes myself and anyone else.

[sexus]

well who said trolls are bad theres good and theres bad trolls ....xD..thou i dont consider myself one since i usually only post whats on my mind not to piss in peoples faces...xD

[Ninjerk]

Let me make sure I've got this straight:

Deus Ex comes out. It is hailed as one of the best games of all time. Then comes the lackluster sequel. Finally, over 10 years later we get a game that shows it is going to carry on the legacy of the original Deus Ex. Previews for the title are overwhelmingly positive, and for the first time the greater gaming public is interested in a Deus Ex game...Then Square Enix says that if people like what is being called the "most refreshing open-eneded RPGs in years", then they will continue to make such astounding games...And this is...bad? Did I miss something?

You've got some reading to do, sir.

[sexus]

indeed he does..xD

[Dead-Eye]

Am I on anyone's ignore list? Pinky?

[Cronstintein]

Am I on anyone's ignore list? Pinky?

Well since they wouldn't be able to read your question, I'll help you out :flowers:


And for OT (searches back 8 pages) oh yeah, more Dx games. I'm for! I don't mind sequels if they're well implemented and not an instant cash grab. If they take 2+ years to do it well I'll be fine. 6mo to re-arrange the tiles and tack on a hackneyed story? Not so much.

Ok, so this forum is all trolls. And when we post elsewhere we're trolling. So what is it when a kool-aid drinking human posts here? :scratch: I tried to think of a funny answer for that but I couldn't cuz imma stoopid TROL!!!1 :nut:

[AlexOfSpades]

Let me make sure I've got this straight:

Deus Ex comes out. It is hailed as one of the best games of all time. Then comes the lackluster sequel. Finally, over 10 years later we get a game that shows it is going to carry on the legacy of the original Deus Ex. Previews for the title are overwhelmingly positive, and for the first time the greater gaming public is interested in a Deus Ex game...Then Square Enix says that if people like what is being called the "most refreshing open-eneded RPGs in years", then they will continue to make such astounding games...And this is...bad? Did I miss something?

Nah, its just that this forum is drowning in a miasma of pessimistic thoughts.

Midway had the Unreal franchise and they kinda did absolutely nothing with it, besides a pair of unknown games (Unreal Championship, featuring RAIDEN as character). No franchise rape, no one died, nothing.

It wasnt said anywhere that after DXHR, Square will proceed to "rape the franchise" or "dumb down everything" and etcetera. They may proceed doing what they're doing right now (making a great game), again and again.

The worst thing we can have is a CG movie as we had with Advent Children. (Which was marvelous).

Welcome to the forums, Wolfman.


Am I on anyone's ignore list? Pinky?

Not on mine, you're such a cool guy

[Blade_hunter]

Only real trolls are on my own ;)

[Sabretooth]

I don't understand you people. The DX universe can be expanded as never before and you complain for that. So what? Want to stick with first DX and waiting for the slow death of community? This is ridiculous.

What this guy says.

Five years ago people were rolling all over in mud crying about how Deus Ex is dead because nobody cares for it. Now Eidos decides to revive it, and not just one-off, but with a 10-year plan to bring back the franchise, and everyone is pissed off again. No way to win with this crowd.

[Pinky_Powers]

Am I on anyone's ignore list? Pinky?

Nah, you balance your horribleness with things I can appreciate. So I don't mind battling you from time-to-time. ;)

[Dead-Eye]

I'm not pissed about this news. I'm just finding it a little disheartening when I look at games like Super Mario Galaxies 2 and think, man that's the future of Deus Ex...

It's possible that Human Revaluation will be a great game. It's possible that what Human Revaluation offers is exactly what the video games industry needs more of right now. It's possible that every sequel from here on out will always be fresh and innovative and the franchise will never get old. It's possible that this is good news, but when you look at what happens to something after it becomes too popular (Mario, Sonic, Call of Duty, Halo, etc) well I wouldn't bet money on it.

Still on the other hand would people rather have something that resembles Deus Ex over the next 10 years or nothing at all? To me I've lost my attachment to the franchise after Invisible War and the question now feels irrelevant. Deus Ex will stand the test of time on it's own no matter how many horrible atrocities are made in it's name. I'm not going to get butt hurt if Human Revaluation is disappointing.

[Kodaemon]

Human Revaluation

Did I miss something? :confused:

[Pinky_Powers]

Still on the other hand would people rather have something that resembles Deus Ex over the next 10 years or nothing at all?

That's certainly how I see the announcement.

It may very well get old and terrible by the end. Before it does, however, we should get a few interesting games along the way. And if they hold to even a few of the DX philosophies, they'll be quite a bit better than most games.

[Bluey71]

To me I've lost my attachment to the franchise after Invisible War and the question now feels irrelevant. Deus Ex will stand the test of time on it's own no matter how many horrible atrocities are made in it's name. I'm not going to get butt hurt if Human Revaluation is disappointing.

Thats probably the best attitude to take, however I still find it highly annoying that lesser games can make their money off the backs of the great and good games of yesteryear.

[Dead-Eye]

Thats probably the best attitude to take, however I still find it highly annoying that lesser games can make their money off the backs of the great and good games of yesteryear.

Indeed... but such is life.

I do like how they call Final Fantasy and Deus Ex two key IPs. Final Fantasy has been acknowledged for a long time as a great game. Deus Ex on the other hand was a great game but not vary well known in popular culture and Invisible War kinda killed any hope of it ever being a well known franchise. Still even with this Square recognizes it as a game that is equal to Final Fantasy in terms of profit potential.

This might suggest that Square has indeed played Deus Ex and respect it as the great game that it is. One that they feel they can make a bunch of money off of equal to that of their golden child franchise Final Fantasy. It suggest some small amount of hope is what I'm saying.

[FrankCSIS]

What it shows is mostly a justification of their acquisition. I'm not saying this in a negative way, I simply think this is the reason behind the sudden statement. Had Thief been more advanced, they would've probably brought it up as well.

It would be the equivalent of Toyata taking over Ford, and discussing their different segments and lines. "We think we have two dozen promising established models, and if lincoln's new releases prove to be succesful we will keep the current model line alive for at least ten years, possibly more".

It can be encouraging news under two simple conditions, already brought up by Pinky. If HR proves to be a really good successor, and, subsequently, if EM retains full creative freedom.

[super...]

I will never understand what people have against things like Super Mario galaxy 2. If they wanted to make more levels or add a few new mechanics to a game that people enjoyed then why not do it? the mechanics of Mario galaxy are more then deserving of a few iterations.

I'm always disappointed with Nintendo games because they rarely explore the full depth of their mechanics. The 3d zelda games are a big example of this, they hardly scratch the surface on how interesting that lock on dueling system is. I would love to have a head to head arena fighter using those mechanics.

Given how expandable the mechanics of deus ex are with augs, skills, weapons, and how much scenario plays into the enjoyment of the game I could see being able to make interesting deus ex games for a very very long time.

[FrankCSIS]

Given how expandable the mechanics of deus ex are with augs, skills, weapons, and how much scenario plays into the enjoyment of the game I could see being able to make interesting deus ex games for a very very long time.

I'm always disappointed with Nintendo games because they rarely explore the full depth of their mechanics.

I will never understand

I think you understood it perfectly well, actually, but you've built it differently in your head. I speak mostly for myself when I say this, but I would honestly prefer a game with similar mechanics and design philosophy in an entirely different setting, than a long-term prolongation of a fictional story, for a handful of reasons.

Long game series tend to stretch into soap opera territory, are limited by the initial content of the original in one way or another, and most often than not, despite the inhuman effort to remain faithful, end up inevitably unrecognisable. This is especially cruel to the gamer who was, whether he realised it or not, strongly attached to the mechanics and philosophies, moreso than the setting.

When someone asks for a Deus Ex sequel, does he really want to know what happened to DX's world after his choice ending, or does he want to see its mechanics in full depth, with an equally compelling and involving story?

Think of it with The Simpsons in mind, and Groening's desire to move on to Futurama. One series, with potentially infinite depth, has been stretched to a point of being barely recognisable, and its creator, prior to this, already recognising and desiring to expend on what made his initial story great, all the while tackling it from an entirely different angle.

I'm drooling at the thought of, say, a WW2 spy game built with DX's expended mechanics. Just like I don't care all that much for Assassin's Creed, but still think its modified engine would do for a truly epic world-traveling adventure game. I don't, on the other hand, really care to see the same rough italian soap story set in new locales. The premise was fun, but it's not that much interesting that it justifies limiting yourself to a single universe. There are simply too many stories to tell and worlds to explore to stick to one IP.

This is said with the passionate hope to see games tell all sorts of fascinating stories in the future, and take me into the worlds of as many authors and story-tellers, shaped by the minds of all sorts of game designers and equally numerous game mechanics. Diversity man, this is what many ultimately thrive for.

[super...]

I understand what you mean, personally with the way a company like square handles IP i'm not that worried. final fantasy games are hardly tied to one another, even when they iterate on a specific edition they usually take a fresh approach (like FF X 2) granted this is an Eidos Montreal game so maybe what you speak of could happen.

I think they could set a deus ex game in 1940s that would tie perfectly to the Illuminati.

Overall I tend to have more of a "Nintendo" approach to game scenario. The mechanics are the characters, setting, and story. you only make new characters when you have vastly new mechaincs. In america super Mario 2 was a success, in japan the game falterd because it looked like this
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9760/dokidokipanicfdsa.jpg
in japan the game was called Doki Doki panic and used new characters. in america the new characters were replaced with mario characters, this makes sense because the mechanics of the game are fairly close to a mario game anyway. (main differences being the picking and throwing of veggies)

I also don't really think games are a good cinematic storytelling medium, people skip cut scenes for a reason. if they don't effect how you play then they are probably going to be skipped. I really like how the conversations mechanics of this deus ex are playing out. I think examining the animation and voice performance may give the player good clues as to how they can successfully play a conversation, we will have to see if this actually works that well but it looks promising.

[FrankCSIS]

I think they could set a deus ex game in 1940s that would tie perfectly to the Illuminati.

I see what you mean as well, but in this particular example why would you bother involving Deus Ex in all of this, when you could just make a good spy/detective story in the 40's, with NWO/Illuminati ideas and WW2 secrets, without the burden of connecting it all to DX in one strange way or another. There is no need, or real justification.

Even platformers are eventually more interesting when they are made into new IP's. Crash Bandicoot was so refreshing, during the tired war between Sonic and Mario. And that's just naming one.

[[FGS]Shadowrunner]

DX1 does verge on WW2, especially in Paris Cathedral level... essentially of course it's a cyberpunk story.

DX1 definitely will stand the test of time, the community are still mapping and modding for it. That interview with Square Enix has really put me off supporting DX Franchises. People with no real understanding of the humanity aspect, the non-lethal aspect, the conspiratorial nature of the plot, will be making DX after DX like the Star Trek franchise. It's a real shame.

I would have expected more of an open mind until total proof that DX3 resolves the issues of DX2...Seems developers and fans are getting carried away a little... DX1 is possibly the best ever computer game made. It's going to take more than improved graphics and sexy mechs to convince most of us that DX3 is better.

[Rindill the Red]

bloodwolf

what your missing is that this place is nothing but trolls

Actually, of the few gaming forums I've been on, this forum seems to have the greatest degree of civil intelligent discussion anywhere.

[super...]

Even platformers are eventually more interesting when they are made into new IP's. Crash Bandicoot was so refreshing, during the tired war between Sonic and Mario. And that's just naming one.

I agree quite a bit, it was really cool to adventure in the middle eastern setting in mario 2 and get to play as princess and toad.

kirby's epic yarn is an interesting case. It's a game that really drives enjoyment with art and animation (or "setting"). http://www.giantbomb.com/kirbys-epic-yarn/61-31730/reviews/
it was originally to feature prince fluff as the main character (instead of as the player 2 character), you could make a good argument for using fluff as a main character based on the game's mechanics. I'm guessing brand recognition is why they went with kirby as the main.

but really whats the difference between the two? eyebrows and attitude?

[[FGS]Shadowrunner]

I would imagine this statement from SE has annoyed most DX fans.

The last thing we want to see is someone profiting from inferior FPS which steal the name of DX. All Eidos have done is prove that DX1 was possibly the best ever game and that DX2 failed to live up to that. A little early to be claiming ownership of a ten year franchise...especially since the DX1 franchise is ten years old and still very much alive in multiplayer, mapping and modding.

The "IF" in the topic title is a little larger than most people realize.

[crackalacken]

+1 for shadowrunner...xD

[MaxxQ1]

Human Revaluation
Did I miss something? :confused:

Nah... He's been spelling it that way for quite a while now. At first, it annoyed me to the point that I was going to mention it to him, but then I figured, "What the hell? Let it go."

Probably English isn't his first language, and somewhere along the line, there was a bit of mistranslation.

[[FGS]Shadowrunner]

+1 for shadowrunner...xD

Haha, thanks.

Don't get me wrong, I am excited about DX3, but there is nothing more ugly than someone failing in DX2 and then promoting themselves before their egg has actually hatched. There's an old saying " You are only as good as your last job/work/song etc", and hey, the last one was DX2...

Unless I am blown away by demo or release, I think it is more likely that DX1 and DXMP are still going in ten years from now, than any sequel or franchise or dumbed down version of Deus Ex.

We all know that any movie of Deus Ex will be an action movie with lethal takedowns.
So who are we trying to kid.

I hope Sheldon Pacotti brought the magic of DX1 to the plot and script of DX3

[Pretentious Old Man.]

Ten year plans? Hmmm

http://www.soviethistory.org/images/Large/1929/e05597.jpg

[AlexOfSpades]

Ouch, Old Man wins.

Those floating masks in Mario 2 made me crap my pants when i was a kid. Really, i just started to freak out, turn off the videogame, scream, slap the TV, sit down and cry a lot.

I dont know why.

Floating masks really creep me out. When i got to the last boss of Starfox, wow, i thought i was going to have a heart attack.

[Hammich]

This won't be a bad thing so long as SE don't expand Eidos with the intention of pushing out a DX game every year with new mechanics but ultimately watered down story and characters. If it's 3 Deus Ex games across 10 years as independent and evolutionary sequels/prequels and each one is a labour of love like Human Revolution looks to be then I don't think we'll have problems.

I just pray that Eidos and SE don't try to stretch a single story arc or player character beyond one game unless it is something truly epic and along the lines of Mass Effect while retaining quality AND quantity of game and options. But if that's the case, it'd better not take more than 5 years for the trilogy! >:(

[Coyotegrey]

I asked lead game designer Jean-Francois Dugas to address a comment before I left and he did. Sorry for the delayed response on my part.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1513299&postcount=65


The game industry is a business. That means if you don't sell games, you're out of business. At least for a big Publisher, it's a fact, like it or not.

That being said, we make games because we love them and we love when people enjoy them. We're happy when we're able to attract as many players as we can to play our games, to experience it on different levels -- emotional, rational, etc. So, of course we try to make our games accessible to play. We try to remove (or reduce) the initial intimidation factor that would prevent some from fully enjoying the games we make.

This is different than "dumbing down." We want to make the game easier to get into without sacrificing the depth and complexity Deus Ex has to offer. I take full responsibility for certain aspects being more streamlined (i.e. basic combat mechanic) but we streamlined them because I believe it makes for a more intense experience to enjoy. It doesn't make the game simpler. The concepts of multipath/solution and having a bunch of means to get through situations is at the heart of the Deus Ex experience. And it's all there.

We need to admit it, rich games like Deus Ex are not accessible to everyone. Do you know how many players tried Deus Ex and quit before finishing the Liberty Island level? You'd be surprised. Therefore, our challenge with DX: HR is to draw players into solving problems, discovering a rich world, and getting excited about it. We don't want players to get too intimidated or overwhelmed from trying to figure out how to play the game itself.

[Ashpolt]

...Which, except for the references to the original DX (obviously), is pretty much word-for-word what every developer says when trying to justify dumbing a game down for the public. Heck, I bet if I dug around, I could find Warren Spector or Harvey Smith saying almost exactly that about Invisible War.

I've said it before and I'll (probably) say it again: if you didn't feel Deus Ex could sell in all its richness and complexity, then you shouldn't have attempted to make a Deus Ex game.

[Corpus]

...Which, except for the references to the original DX (obviously), is pretty much word-for-word what every developer says when trying to justify dumbing a game down for the public. Heck, I bet if I dug around, I could find Warren Spector or Harvey Smith saying almost exactly that about Invisible War.

I've said it before and I'll (probably) say it again: if you didn't feel Deus Ex could sell in all its richness and complexity, then you shouldn't have attempted to make a Deus Ex game.

Telling them they shouldn't have attempted making one is essentially the same as saying "I think you've failed at doing your job" even before the game is out. Thats not very fair.

Until you've played and completed the polished final product I don't think you have the right to say that. For all you know this game could have an equal amount of complexity. DX was more complex in story than it was in gameplay, a few gameplay changes won't dumb down anything.

I think you just can't accept the fact DX had its faults and there are aspects of it that wouldn't work in this day and age.

[Rindill the Red]

I asked lead game designer Jean-Francois Dugas to address a comment before I left and he did. Sorry for the delayed response on my part.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1513299&postcount=65


The game industry is a business. That means if you don't sell games, you're out of business. At least for a big Publisher, it's a fact, like it or not.

That being said, we make games because we love them and we love when people enjoy them. We're happy when we're able to attract as many players as we can to play our games, to experience it on different levels -- emotional, rational, etc. So, of course we try to make our games accessible to play. We try to remove (or reduce) the initial intimidation factor that would prevent some from fully enjoying the games we make.

This is different than "dumbing down." We want to make the game easier to get into without sacrificing the depth and complexity Deus Ex has to offer. I take full responsibility for certain aspects being more streamlined (i.e. basic combat mechanic) but we streamlined them because I believe it makes for a more intense experience to enjoy. It doesn't make the game simpler. The concepts of multipath/solution and having a bunch of means to get through situations is at the heart of the Deus Ex experience. And it's all there.

We need to admit it, rich games like Deus Ex are not accessible to everyone. Do you know how many players tried Deus Ex and quit before finishing the Liberty Island level? You'd be surprised. Therefore, our challenge with DX: HR is to draw players into solving problems, discovering a rich world, and getting excited about it. We don't want players to get too intimidated or overwhelmed from trying to figure out how to play the game itself.

Streamlining is a dangerous thing, in my opinion. You may not be "dumbing it down", but in the end it amounts to a few basic things: the player gets to do less, is involved in the game less, interacts with the game-world less, and the game does more for the player. This reduces the player's freedom within the game world and lessens the very virtue of video games: "interaction".

This is dangerous because you streamline too much, you make the game boring... case in point: Civ 5, Splinter Cell: Conviction...

They are at a point where it feels like the entire game is... push forward on your control stick to watch a boring movie.

I'm exagerrating, but to players who can enjoy and are used to deep gameplay elements, streamlining takes too much away sometimes.

I'm not saying that the DX:HR team hasn't done it right, (we've yet to see), but it's a dangerous game, playing with streamlining.

[Serendipitous]

The multiple paths of Deus Ex have the potential to make everyone happy. It can be a shooter, stealth, or adventure game. In this way, more complexity and choices makes it more accessible. Forcing an adventure gamer to endure a cliche story, or an FPS gamer to endure long stretches of peaceful exploration; will make the game less accessible.

[FrankCSIS]

His point is very valid,and it's hard to argue against it, not only from a business standpoint, but for the sake of the industry in general.

However, I maintain there is a rather simple (albeit time-consuming) solution to this. I do know of many people who gave up the game during or after Liberty Island. In fact, everyone I know either felt it was one of the best games they ever played, or gave up after Liberty Island. If you must rally those players (which you do, for many reasons), offer them some extra help, some optional help.

Many felt lost when thrown in the level, expected clearer objectives, and did not know what to do during or after the mission. Do you think, perhaps, we could re-think the tutorial principle, and apply it to levels, as an optional feature? Some did not know how to calibrate their players? Optional character-optimisation has been around in RPG's forever. Some people don't like to manage that many ressources? Simulation games have always offered "auto-pilot" management for as many features as you want the computer to handle, why not apply this type of customisation to fps? You already have to program the auto-pilot anyway, every time you take one management feature away from the player.

Think of a chess game, its many tutorial levels, and its many AI difficulty settings. Those games, they were designed to take a beginner and turn him into an expert, step by step. They were both accessible, and very complex. There is no stopping anyone from adapting this model to any type of games, shooters included. Most RTS, in fact, are built like this. A single shooter can be as streamlined as CoD, and as realist as, say, America's Army, within the same title. You just re-think the difficulty settings, and merge them with tailored game mechanics, according to the player's choice.

[Ashpolt]

Telling them they shouldn't have attempted making one is essentially the same as saying "I think you've failed at doing your job" even before the game is out. Thats not very fair.

Until you've played and completed the polished final product I don't think you have the right to say that. For all you know this game could have an equal amount of complexity. DX was more complex in story than it was in gameplay, a few gameplay changes won't dumb down anything.

I think you just can't accept the fact DX had its faults and there are aspects of it that wouldn't work in this day and age.


Sure, Deus Ex had its faults. But the changes I'm concerned about in DXHR - primarily third person usage and health regeneration - are not the changes that are fixing those faults (mostly the AI.) Where they're making changes to fix problems, I congratulate them. But that's not what we're talking about here. As for "aspects that wouldn't work in this day and age" - there are loads of popular games that stay in first person, and Fallout 3 uses a health system almost identical to Deus Ex, but sold by the bucketload. Myth busted.

And sure, I can't say for sure that DXHR has failed to be a Deus Ex game until I've played it. But two things about that:

1) In the post you quoted, I didn't say that I think DXHR has failed - I think this is likely to be the case, but I didn't say it in the post you were responding to, and I haven't stated it as solid, irrefutable fact anywhere else. What you quoted was me saying that if (key word there, if) Eidos Montreal don't believe a Deus Ex game could sell well with all its richness and complexity intact - note this is concerning their beliefs, not mine - then they shouldn't have attempted to make a Deus Ex game.

2) Sure, we can't say for sure that the game has been dumbed down until we've played it. But we've got very strong indications in the gameplay details we've been given, plus Dugas pretty much outright stating that is has been, albeit in dev speak. Keep your fingers in your ears and ignore the signs if you like, but there's certainly reason for concern there for those who can infer.

[Corpus]

Sure, Deus Ex had its faults. But the changes I'm concerned about in DXHR - primarily third person usage and health regeneration - are not the changes that are fixing those faults (mostly the AI.) Where they're making changes to fix problems, I congratulate them. But that's not what we're talking about here. As for "aspects that wouldn't work in this day and age" - there are loads of popular games that stay in first person, and Fallout 3 uses a health system almost identical to Deus Ex, but sold by the bucketload. Myth busted.

Yet it uses a ton of supposedly dumbed down elements that some people think turns an originally 'deep' RPG into a dumb shooter. These 'dumbed down' elements helped it to sell. Not to mention Fallout is a different game, paced differently and played differently. The new fallouts retained elements of the originals but introduced new ones to capture a wider audience which is what EM is trying to do.

I personally thought the new fallout games balanced out the action/RPG elements pretty well but people are so very, very picky.

And sure, I can't say for sure that DXHR has failed to be a Deus Ex game until I've played it. But two things about that:

1) In the post you quoted, I didn't say that I think DXHR has failed - I think this is likely to be the case, but I didn't say it in the post you were responding to, and I haven't stated it as solid, irrefutable fact anywhere else. What you quoted was me saying that if (key word there, if) Eidos Montreal don't believe a Deus Ex game could sell well with all its richness and complexity intact - note this is concerning their beliefs, not mine - then they shouldn't have attempted to make a Deus Ex game.

Again, its richness and complexity exist mainly within its story, multiple paths and freedom of choice not in its combat mechanics or skills/health system. Gameplay is the one thing people are most concerned about because its being 'dumbed down'.

2) Sure, we can't say for sure that the game has been dumbed down until we've played it. But we've got very strong indications in the gameplay details we've been given, plus Dugas pretty much outright stating that is has been, albeit in dev speak. Keep your fingers in your ears and ignore the signs if you like, but there's certainly reason for concern there for those who can infer.


I'm not all that afraid of the third person stuff, I just wonder how well everything will be paced combat-wise. Dumbing down to me would've been stripping the game of multi-path and RPG(skills, augs etc) elements as well as a strong setting and story, but these are clearly still in the game in some form.

[singularity]

Sure, Deus Ex had its faults. But the changes I'm concerned about in DXHR - primarily third person usage and health regeneration - are not the changes that are fixing those faults (mostly the AI.)
...
2) Sure, we can't say for sure that the game has been dumbed down until we've played it. But we've got very strong indications in the gameplay details we've been given, plus Dugas pretty much outright stating that is has been, albeit in dev speak. Keep your fingers in your ears and ignore the signs if you like, but there's certainly reason for concern there for those who can infer.

I'll agree with you that there are a lot of reasons to be concerned. There are a lot of signs that point to a more simplified, streamlined process.
But at the end of the day, nothing I have seen or heard thus far has been a deal-breaker for me. There are causes for concern in every game release -- especially in the franchises we care a lot about.

For example, when Resident Evil 4 was in development (for something like 6 years... it got scrapped, turned into Devil May Cry, etc), I and many RE fans were worried as hell. New camera perspectives, new story, new gameplay, quick time events... there were more causes to be concerned with RE4 then there have been with DXHR, in my opinion. And RE4 turned into one of the best RE games on the market (in sales, reviews and public opinion).

Metal Gear Solid 3? New setting, new time period, (technically) a new character, and it was a follow up to MGS2, which many fans weren't happy with. Plus, there was word that all of the issues that fans have had since MGS1 (like the camera and wonky coontrols) wouldn't be fixed. A whole lot of reasons to be concerned. Now many consider MGS3 to be the best in the franchise.

Are there a ton of reasons to be concerned? Obviously. And for every RE4 and MGS3, you get a Devil May Cry 2 (one that looks awesome, should be awesome, and contains everything that made the first great on paper... but sucks). What I'm saying is that I haven't seen anything yet that is sending up a red flag in my book. It looks very Deus Ex, the third person cover looks very solid, and the other components I'm worried about (NPC interaction, details on the health system, story and RPG elements) we have few details on. I'll reserve my more critical, nit-picky musings for later, when we have more info, more videos, more interviews and (hopefully) a playable demo.
Until then, everything I've seen has me quite optimistic, especially given the circumstances.

And who's to say that if this turns out good, we couldn't wind up with a good DX franchise? As far as I see it, DXHR is a big reset button on the series (which it really needs). If it turns out great, I'm all for another one. I'll keep giving EM/ SE rope, until they screw us over. I'm not going to be against more until I've at least seen the first entry. That would be like turning down a second cookie before you ever try the first... it's smart to eat a cookie and THEN decide if you want more.

[subtlesnake]

...Which, except for the references to the original DX (obviously), is pretty much word-for-word what every developer says when trying to justify dumbing a game down for the public. Heck, I bet if I dug around, I could find Warren Spector or Harvey Smith saying almost exactly that about Invisible War.

I've said it before and I'll (probably) say it again: if you didn't feel Deus Ex could sell in all its richness and complexity, then you shouldn't have attempted to make a Deus Ex game.
But the whole point he's trying to make in the quote is that they *can* maintain the richness and complexity required of a Deus Ex game, while at the same time making that game more accessible to new players. Maybe you dispute this, because your vision of what a Deus Ex sequel should be is different from theirs; nevertheless EM believe they can stay true to the vision of Deus Ex, and that's what the quote indicates. That's why they're building a game within the Deus Ex universe.

In any case, the debate about complexity vs. accesability, isn't just a debate about what will sell, but about how many players will actually get to experience what is created. All things being equal, the more people that are able to feel what it's like to participate in a freeform RPG like Deus Ex, the better. Part of the value of making a Deus Ex game more accessible is then precisely to bring that game to a new audience, and get them to appreciate what makes it special.

But yes, you have to make a tradeoff, and draw a line in the sand at some point and say "this is what a Deus Ex experience is - we're not going to compromise any further". And that's exactly what Dugas says they're doing, in his answer: "We need to admit it, rich games like Deus Ex are not accessible to everyone." Clearly though, there is value in making the game accessible to more people, and that may mean removing some complexity. If the end result is more than 20% of people complete the game, I think that's a good thing.

[Kodaemon]

Is a man not entitled to a niche game? "No", says the man in Montreal, "It belongs to everyone."

[Adam_Jensen]

Sure, Deus Ex had its faults. But the changes I'm concerned about in DXHR - primarily third person usage and health regeneration - are not the changes that are fixing those faults (mostly the AI.) Where they're making changes to fix problems, I congratulate them. But that's not what we're talking about here. As for "aspects that wouldn't work in this day and age" - there are loads of popular games that stay in first person, and Fallout 3 uses a health system almost identical to Deus Ex, but sold by the bucketload. Myth busted.

And sure, I can't say for sure that DXHR has failed to be a Deus Ex game until I've played it. But two things about that:

1) In the post you quoted, I didn't say that I think DXHR has failed - I think this is likely to be the case, but I didn't say it in the post you were responding to, and I haven't stated it as solid, irrefutable fact anywhere else. What you quoted was me saying that if (key word there, if) Eidos Montreal don't believe a Deus Ex game could sell well with all its richness and complexity intact - note this is concerning their beliefs, not mine - then they shouldn't have attempted to make a Deus Ex game.

2) Sure, we can't say for sure that the game has been dumbed down until we've played it. But we've got very strong indications in the gameplay details we've been given, plus Dugas pretty much outright stating that is has been, albeit in dev speak. Keep your fingers in your ears and ignore the signs if you like, but there's certainly reason for concern there for those who can infer.


See, thats interesting. For me, the actual mechanics aren't the "dumbing down" that worry me. Deus Ex had the worst combat I have ever played, with REALLY dumb combat AI, and a whole bunch of other problems. But Im not that shallow, I found it more annoying that I couldn't kill my brother at the docks, shoot Gunther Herman dead, kill the woman in the UNATCO headquarters so she couldn't dob on me. I don't think that the use of regenerating health or a cover system actually make it "dumber", I am perfectly happy with them, as long as storyline options are many and very open.

If I could shoot the guy we see saying "and hide behind proxy soldiers" in the back of the head, have him die, fight/sneak my way out of the building and have the game go on (assuming that happens relatively early), I would be really happy. Storyline options are what makes it deep and meaningfull, not the combat system

[IOOI]

I still say the problem here is that EM knows poo poo about doing RPGs much less understand the FPIS, so it went for the "wow-me" cinematic effect. They couldn't help it.

Every day I imagine how it would look like if Bethesda did a DX game. The story would probably suffer but the gameplay mechanics (with a good FP cover) and interaction with the world would make up for it.

[Kodaemon]

Nice forum name there, highly original.

As for your post - so, you're saying you just want to be able to kill everyone regardless of whether it makes any sense. Awesome.

Snark aside, that's not really what Deus Ex is about. You should have clearly defined goals, with a multitude of ways to achieving them, and a number of factors you have to take into account while doing that. And what the devs are doing, is diminishing the number of those options, so as not to scare your average Call of Duty fan.

[puzl]

What I really want to know is which games (if any) were criticised by the media for being TOO complex? All I have ever seen from this industry in recent years is things being taken away and nothing added, besides the visual flash. It's embaressing that a 10 year old game like DX still has more depth and ideas than games made today, with huge budgets and massive studios.

I'm all for making games that reach as many people as possible, but try have a little faith in your consumers intelligence. Demon's Souls was one of the hardest, most inaccessible games in years, yet was still a massive commercial and critical success.

[subtlesnake]

Is a man not entitled to a niche game? "No", says the man in Montreal, "It belongs to everyone."
Well, who does a game 'belong' to exactly?

[Adam_Jensen]

Nice forum name there, highly original.

As for your post - so, you're saying you just want to be able to kill everyone regardless of whether it makes any sense. Awesome.

Snark aside, that's not really what Deus Ex is about. You should have clearly defined goals, with a multitude of ways to achieving them, and a number of factors you have to take into account while doing that. And what the devs are doing, is diminishing the number of those options, so as not to scare your average Call of Duty fan.

That it is! I think I picked up sarcasm there. Although Im not sure what your saying, you seem to be upset that Deus Ex: Human Revolution is going to be different to the first game, so clearly originality is important to you.


So, What your saying is I should only be able to have very limited effect on the storyline, have it basically all planned out for me, and my only choice is being able to do it via sneaking, diplomacy or shooting?

I agree that clearly defined goals should be given, but I also think that they should be completely optional. If you want to go rogue and join the other side early, so be it.

I also have not seen any reason to believe they are diminishing your options for accomplishing a goal, in fact, I seem to recall someone saying something about being able to talk characters into doing what you want. That was something you couldn't really do in the original. Oh sure you could make characters stop talking to you and so forth, but it was pretty rare to be able to change anything via conversation.

Ultimately, what it comes down to, is they are the ones spending the money, time and headaches to make this, if you like it, you like it, if not, don't buy it. And no, your not doing them any favours by basically just saying "Youve ****ed it up already!", its not exactly helpful. Let them make the game they want to make, and if its good, its good.

I honestly don't know why youd even follow the development cycle, clearly it just annoys you, peace out and play some other game until this is released, then come back. That way you dont have to bang your head into a keyboard reading posts from people like me, or stress out your girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband by breaking down about regenerating health... At a family funeral...

[singularity]

Nice forum name there, highly original.

As for your post - so, you're saying you just want to be able to kill everyone regardless of whether it makes any sense. Awesome.

Snark aside, that's not really what Deus Ex is about. You should have clearly defined goals, with a multitude of ways to achieving them, and a number of factors you have to take into account while doing that. And what the devs are doing, is diminishing the number of those options, so as not to scare your average Call of Duty fan.

Just to be clear, I have yet to see any evidence at all of "diminishing options" -- creating a franchise and having 3rd person/ health regen does not result in "diminished options". Neither you nor I will have any inkling of what our "options" are until we get hands on time with the game, and that seems to be at least 3 months out (and probably further).

I think this claim might be a little bit premature, seeing as how everything we have seen thus far lends itself to DXHR having quite a few "options" -- from Jerion's testimonies, the knowledge we now have about objectives being non-linear and able to be completed in any order, the claims that level design is sprawling and promotes exploration and the constant testimonies that you can complete missions in numerous manners all point to a game that is looking to give you more "options" ... or at least as many as the first game had.

All I'm saying is that right now -- we can only truely form opinions on the third-person take downs, the (alpha) graphics, character models, a little bit of the physics, the cover system and some of the shooting mechanics. Because those are the only things we've seen. It should also be known that these are some of the things that DX players should care little about, seeing as how the first game went into third person every time you had a conversation, the graphics were horrible, the character models were stiff as hell, the physics were alright, and the shooting mechanics were pretty awful, and we still loved it.

The rest is all rumor and speculation. We can comment on it (and God knows we do), but forming an opinion without even seeing it? Things like "story" and "options" and "AI" are the last things we'll get to know/ form an opinion on, because they are things we will actually need to play with for ourselves.

[Pinky_Powers]

Is a man not entitled to a niche game? "No", says the man in Montreal, "It belongs to everyone."

Indeed, that's much how I feel about it too.

One of my more brilliant phrases sums up my stance on this issue: "streamlining without losing functionality." Once you start removing entire entities, like Lockpicks, Melee Weapons or the Inventory in ME2, you're streamlining by dumbing down... and that's just shameful.

Let people try your game and turn away from it. If you made Deus Ex, you have nothing to be ashamed of. If you streamlined Deus Ex by removing entire concepts, you sold your soul and made a worse game in the process. At that point who cares if you made a few extra coins at the end of the day; you're a Craven.

[neilthecellist]

Two (Japanese) words to Square Enix:

空気を読めない。

[FrankGuy]

two (japanese) words to square enix:

空気を読めない。

これが世界の終わりです。あなたはここからそれを見ることができますか？

[KSingh77]

Two words:

Big sword

[Dragonknight]

@Corpus:
"Again, its richness and complexity exist mainly within its story, multiple paths and freedom of choice not in its combat mechanics or skills/health system."
@subtlesnake:
"nevertheless EM believe they can stay true to the vision of Deus Ex"

I have to disagree. To me, it takes many things to make a game a true Deus Ex, not just a few, and that includes combat mechanics, skills, and health systems. As someone said in another thread (a forget which one), there were 10-11 things that the fans on these forums discussed. Things that they didn't want in the game, and why those things would not make it a Deus Ex game. EM put all but one in the game. Clearly they pretty much ignored the fans.
It's like Invisible Wars all over again. At that time fans discussed things about the way the game was being made. We discussed why those things didn't fit. What happened? We were almost completely ignored.

When Jean-Francois Dugas claims that many people quit playing before finishing the Liberty Island level, it wasn't (to me) that it was too complex, or that they weren't sure what they were to do. It was almost certainly for one big reason. --- They didn't mean the manual ---. When I heard people having problems, it was interesting that when asked, many said they hadn't read the manual. That kind of attitude is why the term RTFM (read the f'n manual) came about. Don't dumb down (or streamline) a game because some people won't bother to read the freaking manual.

@puzl:
"What I really want to know is which games (if any) were criticised by the media for being TOO complex? All I have ever seen from this industry in recent years is things being taken away and nothing added, besides the visual flash. It's embaressing that a 10 year old game like DX still has more depth and ideas than games made today, with huge budgets and massive studios."
I agree with that. Since the late 1980's I would buy at least 10 games each year (sometimes almost 20 - some are small puzzle or arcade games). During the past four years (including this year) I have bought a total of 11. Not at least 40 over 4 years. Just 11. So many games rely on visual flash, or as some say "the shinies". Many are so dumbed down that I don't even have to read the manual.

@Adam Jensen:
Ultimately, what it comes down to, is they are the ones spending the money, time and headaches to make this, if you like it, you like it, if not, don't buy it. And no, your not doing them any favours by basically just saying "Youve ed it up already!", its not exactly helpful.

Who cares about doing them favors? Not exactly helpful? As has been said, they have mostly ignored the fans. Not being happy with EM is fine. Those fans are telling EM that they are unhappy with how the game is turning out so far. They don't have to wait until the game comes out. The game isn't a proper Deus Ex game to them, and their opinion is valid. Just as those who already think it's a proper Deus Ex is valid.

[OwlSolar]

Again, why should the developers listen specifically to this forum? There's really nothing special about us that make us a better choice for direction than other fans out there. It's nothing less than pretentious to expect the developers to do exactly what you say and then complaining that they're ignoring us when they don't.
And do you have proof for that assertion about Liberty Island and the manual, or is that just your assumption?

Okay, and now for specific points:
To me, it takes many things to make a game a true Deus Ex, not just a few, and that includes combat mechanics, skills, and health systems.Very true. However, this is highly subjective; not everyone agrees on this. The developers simply went with what they felt made a true Deus Ex game.

As someone said in another thread (a forget which one), there were 10-11 things that the fans on these forums discussed. Things that they didn't want in the game, and why those things would not make it a Deus Ex game. EM put all but one in the game. Clearly they pretty much ignored the fans. Were the fans unanimous on those things? And even if they were, are the fans here a majority, or even good reflection of all the Deus Ex fans out there?
Unless you provide a good answer for those questions, your statement is like me making various demands and then saying that Eidos completely ignored the entire fanbase for not listening to me.

Many are so dumbed down that I don't even have to read the manual.It certainly helps that tutorials are becoming more common and useful.

Just as those who already think it's a proper Deus Ex is valid. You seem to be telling EM to ignore those fans.

[Jerion]

It's my experience that Deus Ex fans have entitlement issues when it comes to video games. :D


And what the devs are doing, is diminishing the number of those options, so as not to scare your average Call of Duty fan.

I disagree.

[OwlSolar]

...So I was just stating the obvious? I feel kind of ashamed. :o

[Ulysses]

Dugas was behind Vegas, no ? Makes it all the more amusing when you read that comment about dumbing down and "streamlining" up there.

Ah well, no point arguing with the need for LCD folk to play.

[IOOI]

I asked lead game designer Jean-Francois Dugas to address a comment before I left and he did. Sorry for the delayed response on my part.

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1513299&postcount=65


The game industry is a business. That means if you don't sell games, you're out of business. At least for a big Publisher, it's a fact, like it or not.

That being said, we make games because we love them and we love when people enjoy them. We're happy when we're able to attract as many players as we can to play our games, to experience it on different levels -- emotional, rational, etc. So, of course we try to make our games accessible to play. We try to remove (or reduce) the initial intimidation factor that would prevent some from fully enjoying the games we make.

This is different than "dumbing down." We want to make the game easier to get into without sacrificing the depth and complexity Deus Ex has to offer. I take full responsibility for certain aspects being more streamlined (i.e. basic combat mechanic) but we streamlined them because I believe it makes for a more intense experience to enjoy. It doesn't make the game simpler. The concepts of multipath/solution and having a bunch of means to get through situations is at the heart of the Deus Ex experience. And it's all there.

We need to admit it, rich games like Deus Ex are not accessible to everyone. Do you know how many players tried Deus Ex and quit before finishing the Liberty Island level? You'd be surprised. Therefore, our challenge with DX: HR is to draw players into solving problems, discovering a rich world, and getting excited about it. We don't want players to get too intimidated or overwhelmed from trying to figure out how to play the game itself.

My opinion about the "basic combat mechanic" (Melee/HTH combat?) - these are partial quotes so click the links to read the full post if they don't make sense:

I'm thinking that in those social areas using Melee/HTH combat would've made so much sense, because you'd need to avoid attracting more security guards or the police - a bit like in the Hong Kong level of DX, where you should avoid to use non-silenced weapons.

For instance, inside the club, the guards should strive to not hit the public (the sentence "Never bring a knife to a gunfight." would make no sense in this situation) so they should recur to knifes or batons for instance. Though I have to admit that IRL, sometimes, there are shootouts inside clubs, but you know what I mean. It would diversify the way one would engage combat.
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1443553


Why!? #1 It's an RPG and if you had read it all you'd see that these character changes would affect the game progression - it could very well become related to story and gameplay. #2 It was already there in previous DX games and it could have been improved. #3 It would give more control over the action besides a simple "tap button to do a non-lethal takedown and old it to make it lethal" (Very satisfying watching a combat animation that you don't have any control over :rolleyes:. This is a game not a movie!). There could have been an increased variety of approaches depending on the melee weapon the PC holds in the hand (knife, baton, etc) that would determine a lethal or non-lethal attack. And it's not all about striking, you could try to disarm foes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY3mYfby6zI) killing them or not in the process.

The devs are subverting the previous system, making it poor. We have now less ways of doing non-lethal takedows than before - we could do multiple combinations before with a pepper gun, baton, riot prod, gas grenade, tranq darts.

Yes, it is a question of implementation and balance that's why I said my system is just a base (somethings can be changed). There are many games that use well HTH/melee in FP. Why can't the devs take a page from them!? Do they hate FPS HTH/combat!? Are they obssesed over TP animations!? Do they have a study that says most gamers like to observe animations over doing an action!? Or are they incapable of producing such thing?
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1430513


Yes, because in DX everybody is a *guard* and has a *gun*. :rolleyes:

And that's where different types of NPC opponents would make a difference. Fighting and making a takedown on an augmented NPC should be different or less effective than doing it on a fully human one. There are other things to take in consideration like the NPC droping the weapon after a takedown, and if the takedown failed (frontal takedown for instance) the player would have the opportunity to fight him.

In a cyber-punk game with low-life scum I would expect to see some opponents like low-life street thugs lightly armed with knifes or pistols. If AJ happens to go to some dirty slum or obscure alley and encounters some of them I would expect it not to waste resources like ammo on them, and instead should use the environment and stealth-skills at his favour (sneaking, using see-through walls vision and blowing up lights or throwing flashbangs to reduce visibility).

Arm blades would never be a starting aug to me - though I don't know if they actually are. They are way overpowered. They should be the ultimate choice for those who prefer the stealth-assassin playstyle.
Instead the player should use a combat knife - inventory item - like in DX1. But the combat knife should break after some use (i.e.: from hitting too many hard bodies like armor) but it shouldn't break too early or when in combat, it should *only* break after a takedown (like a blunt stab to the chest). This would create moments where the player would need to improvise and fight or look for another knife.
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1507029

I still don't understand why he thought that having a more simplified combat system would make the game "a more intense experience to enjoy". I mean wouldn't it make more intense (and lure new players) if there was a proper Melee/HTH combat system in the veins of "The Chronicles of Riddick" or "Condemned"? :hmm:

[IOOI]

This won't be a bad thing so long as SE don't expand Eidos with the intention of pushing out a DX game every year with new mechanics but ultimately watered down story and characters. If it's 3 Deus Ex games across 10 years as independent and evolutionary sequels/prequels and each one is a labour of love like Human Revolution looks to be then I don't think we'll have problems.

I just pray that Eidos and SE don't try to stretch a single story arc or player character beyond one game unless it is something truly epic and along the lines of Mass Effect while retaining quality AND quantity of game and options. But if that's the case, it'd better not take more than 5 years for the trilogy! >:(

I don't know about the epicness, but I don't believe will be getting a game with gender choice like in IW or with the same level of customization as in Mass Effect. It seems hard to make games like that.

It might be easier for EM to deliver short games describing the story of different characters from within the DX universe. They would retain much more control over development and EM could still brag about the "4 pillars" of gameplay - without changing much - to convince people that they are making "real" Deus Ex games.

[PlasmaSnake101]

Quantity goes up, quality goes down.

Corporatized capitalism in a nutshell, boys and girls.

As opposed to what system of economic production and distribution? Besides, in this evil Capitalist society we see what route the majority of bad games take. Also, every thing appeals to a certain audience. Don't huff and puff and kick your feet just because the audience base is shifting. I know some gamers who are really looking forward to this, console gamers but nothing you could declare casual or stupid. The more of an audience they take in the better. Or would you rather someone doesn't soil "your" game series?

For the bit on quantity and quality, you might want to take a look at the USSR to see how wonderfully the other systems of economic distribution hold up. Quality and quantity are opposing consumer desires, and in a capitalist society both are readily obtainable.

[CoDEllite]

This won't be a bad thing so long as SE don't expand Eidos with the intention of pushing out a DX game every year with new mechanics but ultimately watered down story and characters.

I don't know about every year but every two years seems reasonable time for a full game to be developed. Look at New Vegas, it was a huge sequel to Fallout 3, introducing new gameplay mechanics, perks, world. Although it would have been nice had they spend an extra month in beta testing :) . But I definitely understand that something on the scope of Deus Ex game would require a bit more time for development then the more cinematic Call of Duty experience. Still around 2 years should be more then enough time for Eidos. Should we expect to see a sequel in 2012?

[Peter Harrison]

Confused about the title of this thread. Sorry if someone already mentioned this, but aren't Square Enix simply doing the awesome CGI scenes in the game while Eidos make the actual game itself.

[Pinky_Powers]

Confused about the title of this thread. Sorry if someone already mentioned this, but aren't Square Enix simply doing the awesome CGI scenes in the game while Eidos make the actual game itself.

Yes.

However, Eidos is owned by Square Enix, so all major decisions about new projects and IPs are in the hands of the Japanese. :)

[Peter Harrison]

Ah, thanks.

[Pretentious Old Man.]

http://www.znanje.org/i/i25/05iv10/05iv1016/stalin-poster08%5B1%5D.jpg

[Pinky_Powers]

That would be Russian. We'll looking a bit farther East. ;)

[smeden87]

I guess we could expect that a company in a capitalist world to want to make "buttloads of cash".

They're not making games to make the children happy. They're making games to get rich.

I work in the office of a bolt and steel tools factory. We dont make them for the bolt fans.

We make them for the profit.

I agree, the gaming world is surrounded with people who really thinks that games is being produced for the fans. They need to realize that games is being developed for YOUR entertaining. Just like movies, porn... hell guns even ;)

So, IF you like this game, BUY it and maybe we will see a "continueing" of this extraordinary story of what I would like my world to be.

[IOS]

The amount of baseless assumptions in this topic is making me facepalm pretty hard. Take this quote:

Arm blades would never be a starting aug to me - though I don't know if they actually are. They are way overpowered. They should be the ultimate choice for those who prefer the stealth-assassin playstyle.
Instead the player should use a combat knife - inventory item - like in DX1. But the combat knife should break after some use (i.e.: from hitting too many hard bodies like armor) but it shouldn't break too early or when in combat, it should *only* break after a takedown (like a blunt stab to the chest). This would create moments where the player would need to improvise and fight or look for another knife.

Arm blades are overpowered? Have you played this game? Have you seen any direct gameplay footage of the game without infinite energy like in the E3 demo? It has been confirmed that you start with the arm aug, but it...

1) Has to be upgraded in order to use the better and more varied takedowns. You start with a very basic takedown.
2) Uses up energy. You can't just spam takedowns.

If you're in a fight, and you use up all of your energy then you need to *GASP* improvise and fight or look for something to boost your energy!

A lot of Deus Ex fans really have no idea what they're talking about, and their ignorance is starting to irritate me.

[cartridge]

I wish I could say that I have "faith" in EM to do right by Deus Ex, but honestly I don't know them. What they have shown so far is promising. I will say that I sincerely thank them for their hard work, and I hope they can understand why gamers like myself place little trust in any assertions made by developers prior to release. Someday I hope to be working on games myself, as a concept artist. All I can add, is that I wish EM the very best in making DXHR an awesome game, and may everyone reap the rewards of their labor.

[TheUnbeholden]

Really.

Well then i must be very, very dumb and i just realized it.

Because DXHR is toootally a game for dumbs.

Like, third person? Only dumb people like it. Regenerating Health? Dumbest thing ever.

Takedowns?



Dumbed down as in having hand holding like highlighting everything that you can interact with and a waypoint to show you where the objective is.

Regenerating health dumbs the game down a little bit, because you don't have to balance the game around strategic placement of health kits, which takes alot of play testing, and puts allot of strategy for the player to decide whether to use one or to save them.

Putting waist high walls everwhere isn't exactly fitting for a game thats supposed to be realistic and immersive like Deus Ex 3.

Why did you mention takedowns as dumb?


Vampire Bloodlines, also known as the dumbest game in the entire planet, has third person, regenerating health and takedowns.

How havent i seen it before?

Totally dumb.
.

Nobody ever said third person as being dumb, aside from the minor thing of being "cheat cam" by seeing around corners without the risk of exposing yourself like the lean keys did.

Also VTM bloodlines even though it has third person and regenerating health, its one of the few games that does it right. The health regen is necessary because you are a vampire, they can heal wounds fast, and the game makes up for it by being pretty hard game. In Deus Ex your a human with mechanical augmentations, perhaps a augmentation you install could do that...

In vampire bloodlines you can play completely from third person, or completely from first person, or combination's of both (except when using melee weapons where you can't go first person, but that's ok). You can switch between the 2, and it worked fine there. Just like in Thief Deadly Shadows where you can do the same thing, and pick and choose if you want first or third.

Deus Ex 3 might not allow you to choose, which isn't dumb for the game, just dumb for Montreal to not cater to everyone's tastes, I feel first person is more immersive.



Totally dumb.

Besides Square makes only dumb games.

Check Final Fantasy. Dumbest thing EVER.

Totally agree, Square will toootally dumb everything down.

Final Fantasy is dumb for alot of reasons, third person is not one of them.

If your going to be sarcastic atleast think things through like the rest of us do.

[AlexOfSpades]

You know, there's no dumb-o-meter to check precisely if Final Fantasy games are dumb, but if you consider them, well your loss, because i think they're rather insightful games. 7th, specifically. The FFX isnt that good. (A little.. way too crazy)

Judging by the story quality, they're not dumb at all. And you need a lot of strategy to finish certain bosses, for example. The gameplay may look silly, but the "core" of the game isnt for anyone. You don't see your average "Halo Johnny" boasting himself because he managed to defeat all Weapons in Final Fantasy 7. Its tough.

So, personally, i dont consider them dumb at all. And i think you shouldnt, too, and play a few if you didnt.

And my post, the old one you carefully quoted each single part, actually meant:

"This game is not dumbed down that much, guys. Bloodlines has the same gameplay features some stated being dumbed or "streamlined" and its pretty much the opposite of a dumb game. Also, Square doesnt create dumb games in my personal opinion, so i think we're safe."

I meant that a few people here are over reacting.

Also, please note the date of my post. And also, read this (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1524200&postcount=12) post of mine.
:)

[puzl]

The FF games after FF9 have got increasingly dumber though. Compare FF6/7 to the latest one and they can't even be uttered in the same breath. Pure linear gameplay and quite honestly, pretty dull.

The persona games from Atlus are the only JPPGs I trust these days. In fact, that publisher in general puts out some fantastic games.

[Rindill the Red]

The FF games after FF9 have got increasingly dumber though. Compare FF6/7 to the latest one and they can't even be uttered in the same breath. Pure linear gameplay and quite honestly, pretty dull.

The persona games from Atlus are the only JPPGs I trust these days. In fact, that publisher in general puts out some fantastic games.

From what I've been able to pick up, Square Enix has pretty much stayed out of internal studio affairs. Other than hooking up EM with Visual Works to supply the trailers, it's all stayed a strictly hands off relationship (nothing getting pushed in where it might not belong).

[Happy]

From what I've been able to pick up...nothing getting pushed in where it might not belong...

That's what she said :)

[TheUnbeholden]

And my post, the old one you carefully quoted each single part, actually meant:

"This game is not dumbed down that much, guys. Bloodlines has the same gameplay features some stated being dumbed or "streamlined" and its pretty much the opposite of a dumb game. Also, Square doesnt create dumb games in my personal opinion, so i think we're safe."



Square Enix aren't developing this game. Eidos Montreal is, which is a new section of Eidos, They technically speaking, have never made a game before, so we can't know if they will do dumb games or not. Saying were safe is a stab at the dark, optimisitic, I don't do either pessimism or optimism, but judge at face value, and so far it looks good. Except for the visual problems, like ammo counter, highlighting, third person.. no idea about the other stuff, seeing as we haven't seen barely any of what the story is apart from vague ideologies stated in the teaser, and subsequent trailers. Character development is unknown, and as the other important aspects like replaybility, game length, we've seen only a little gameplay and it looks solid (as long as I can avoid third person cover, and if the regenerating health can be toned down or turned off then I'll be happy.)

but its good to see that you have also seen what games are becoming... Deus Ex 3 won't be dumb I don't think, I think it will deliver on all counts. My only concerns are the visual aspects like highlighting, ammo counter and third person... if the game ends up having all 3 as they are now with no way to turn them off I won't be able to get past it, thats how ruining they are.